Guild Wars 2

PolarTank.5902:

Starbird.4029:

So I got the game a few weeks ago and have been faffing around trying to settle on a character.

Now one thing I like about WoW, for all it’s failings, is that whatever class I want to level, the early experience is going to be pretty consistent. Difficult or easy, the classes are balanced in such a way that nothing is a horror to level early anymore and most dps specs require a similar amount of effort and time to level with.

GW2 on the other hand…well, I really would love to level my thief, but I’m so insanely squishy that I have to jump around like a grasshopper on yellowjackets to survive 2+ of even similar level mobs.
On the other hand, my guardian or Warrior can just kerplode enemies endlessly, even if he is a few levels below them.

Since the early game experience is really important (first impressions on new players and all that) and can be so vastly different depending on what you choose to play first, I really think that some attention should be given to the fairly long period of time between starting and getting fully traited out and skilled up.

Perhaps the armor/mitigation/healing differential between the classes could be smoothed out early (and diverge more sharply later), and key survive-ability traits unlocked sooner? This would be a simple matter of changing a few numbers around.

Thoughts?

EDIT: For clarity. Also, please read this before jumping in with “L2P”. This isn’t a matter of the game being too hard. It’s more about certain classes/builds relying on tools that are not unlocked until late, versus others who have a solid kit from the get-go.

IT’S NOT. let me tell you why. the classes are different. you can’t play a thief like a guardian or vice versa. if you play style is tank and spank don’t play a thief. for a thief to survive you must learn how to move simple as that.

I play many classes and have not found any do be more difficult to lvl then the other through same content.

you don’t want anyone to respond with L2P yet what I read is what you must do. the vast majority don’t post this issue because they have spent the time to learn there class. took me awhile to learn theif. I practiced how to use what was given to me to survive before I put my self in tough positions.

the argument would be better if you we’re talking about time it might take to lvl a class, or how long it takes to learn.

but sorry I just don’t agree

You are free to disagree, as long as you can tell me why in a way that doesn’t end up as L2P.

The issue isn’t that the playstyle is different. The issue is that:
A) Some classes start out flat out worse than others and remain so until quite a bit later, due to when traits/signets/skills unlock. My thief literally does half the dps of my guardian for a fair while.
B) Some playstyles are significantly more difficult. This is fine at the endgame, but as other posters have said, should not be the case early on.

But okay, let me bounce this back to you.

What would the disadvantage be to letting key self healing and surviveability traits/skills unlock a little earlier for thieves?

What would the disadvantage be to making key aoe abilities available earlier for certain classes?

What would the disadvantage be to buffing P/P, and other poorly designed sets?

Starbird.4029:

Ashabhi.1365:

Just an old lady’s perspective:

I would rather…

-snip-

TL;DR:
Don’t change the leveling process. Take a look at your class choice instead.

You remind me of people who support Shamans in WoW doing 30% less dps than everyone else ’because…

-snip-

‘Flavour’ is never an excuse for imbalance, in a good game.

It could also be argued that the imbalance you feel may be a matter of prespective. You may feel that a profession is not balanced with the other profession mainly because the profession you chose doesn’t cater to the playstyle you are used to in other games.

To my mind, GW2 is less about numbers and more about actually playing the game.

That is the reason why some people shun a profession in this game, they don’t understand how it works so they veiw it as a “weak” profession and deem the game “imbalanced”.

When you have people asking for thieves to be buffed and at the same time complaining that thieves are OP, the problem, i think is how people percieve other professions.

Edit: changed “nerfed” to “buffed”

Baeyne.9584:

Starbird.4029:

Ashabhi.1365:

Just an old lady’s perspective:

I would rather…

-snip-

TL;DR:
Don’t change the leveling process. Take a look at your class choice instead.

You remind me of people who support Shamans in WoW doing 30% less dps than everyone else ’because…

-snip-

‘Flavour’ is never an excuse for imbalance, in a good game.

It could also be argued that the imbalance you feel may be a matter of prespective. You may feel that a profession is not balanced with the other profession mainly because the profession you chose doesn’t cater to the playstyle you are used to in other games.

To my mind, GW2 is less about numbers and more about actually playing the game.

That is the reason why some people shun a profession in this game, they don’t understand how it works so they veiw it as a “weak” profession and deem the game “imbalanced”.

When you have people asking for thieves to be buffed and at the same time complaining that thieves are OP, the problem, i think is how people percieve other professions.

Edit: changed “nerfed” to “buffed”

The devs have confirmed that thieves need some love in PvE.

Do you disagree?

Starbird.4029:

Baeyne.9584:

Starbird.4029:

Ashabhi.1365:

Just an old lady’s perspective:

I would rather…

-snip-

TL;DR:
Don’t change the leveling process. Take a look at your class choice instead.

You remind me of people who support Shamans in WoW doing 30% less dps than everyone else ’because…

-snip-

‘Flavour’ is never an excuse for imbalance, in a good game.

It could also be argued that the imbalance you feel may be a matter of prespective. You may feel that a profession is not balanced with the other profession mainly because the profession you chose doesn’t cater to the playstyle you are used to in other games.

To my mind, GW2 is less about numbers and more about actually playing the game.

That is the reason why some people shun a profession in this game, they don’t understand how it works so they veiw it as a “weak” profession and deem the game “imbalanced”.

When you have people asking for thieves to be buffed and at the same time complaining that thieves are OP, the problem, i think is how people percieve other professions.

Edit: changed “nerfed” to “buffed”

The devs have confirmed that thieves need some love in PvE.

Do you disagree?

that’s exactly why they were nerfed, right? Because they were so useless in PVE…

Mirta.5029:

Starbird.4029:

Baeyne.9584:

Starbird.4029:

Ashabhi.1365:

Just an old lady’s perspective:

I would rather…

-snip-

TL;DR:
Don’t change the leveling process. Take a look at your class choice instead.

You remind me of people who support Shamans in WoW doing 30% less dps than everyone else ’because…

-snip-

‘Flavour’ is never an excuse for imbalance, in a good game.

It could also be argued that the imbalance you feel may be a matter of prespective. You may feel that a profession is not balanced with the other profession mainly because the profession you chose doesn’t cater to the playstyle you are used to in other games.

To my mind, GW2 is less about numbers and more about actually playing the game.

That is the reason why some people shun a profession in this game, they don’t understand how it works so they veiw it as a “weak” profession and deem the game “imbalanced”.

When you have people asking for thieves to be buffed and at the same time complaining that thieves are OP, the problem, i think is how people percieve other professions.

Edit: changed “nerfed” to “buffed”

The devs have confirmed that thieves need some love in PvE.

Do you disagree?

that’s exactly why they were nerfed, right? Because they were so useless in PVE…

The recent dev chat said that they want to buff rangers and thieves.

From my understanding, most of the PvE nerfs were splashover from PvP.

I think this thread is just full of thief haters. Give me one good reason why Thief P/P should be worse in every possible way than every other weapon set for every other class.

Coldtart.4785:

I think this thread is just full of thief haters. Give me one good reason why Thief P/P should be worse in every possible way than every other weapon set for every other class.

Mesmer Scepter / Anything just had a good laugh.

Coldtart.4785:

I think this thread is just full of thief haters. Give me one good reason why Thief P/P should be worse in every possible way than every other weapon set for every other class.

Becauase some people cannot enjoy their game unless they can, at the same time, know someone else is enjoying it less.

Their enjoyment is increased by stealing the enjoyment of others. It’s like The Highlander.

In the end, there can be only one.

Starbird.4029:

Mirta.5029:

Starbird.4029:

Baeyne.9584:

Starbird.4029:

Ashabhi.1365:

Just an old lady’s perspective:

I would rather…

-snip-

TL;DR:
Don’t change the leveling process. Take a look at your class choice instead.

You remind me of people who support Shamans in WoW doing 30% less dps than everyone else ’because…

-snip-

‘Flavour’ is never an excuse for imbalance, in a good game.

It could also be argued that the imbalance you feel may be a matter of prespective. You may feel that a profession is not balanced with the other profession mainly because the profession you chose doesn’t cater to the playstyle you are used to in other games.

To my mind, GW2 is less about numbers and more about actually playing the game.

That is the reason why some people shun a profession in this game, they don’t understand how it works so they veiw it as a “weak” profession and deem the game “imbalanced”.

When you have people asking for thieves to be buffed and at the same time complaining that thieves are OP, the problem, i think is how people percieve other professions.

Edit: changed “nerfed” to “buffed”

The devs have confirmed that thieves need some love in PvE.

Do you disagree?

that’s exactly why they were nerfed, right? Because they were so useless in PVE…

The recent dev chat said that they want to buff rangers and thieves.

From my understanding, most of the PvE nerfs were splashover from PvP.

depends which thief ability will be buffed I suppose. Backstab does so much damage that that invisibility nerf seems really needed. Either that or backstab damage itself should be nerfed. Thieves do have other weapons and builds though, so I suppose if those got a buff it would be just fine?

Starbird, do you have a guild or know other people who play the game? I find the levelling experience, no matter the class, is improved if you’re running around in a group. Even just two or three other people. Increases fun level too.

Starbird.4029:

But okay, let me bounce this back to you.

What would the disadvantage be to letting key self healing and surviveability traits/skills unlock a little earlier for thieves?

You start with Hide In Shadows, that’s a heal, a regen, and a condition remover all in one. Its the best heal you have. One skill point gets you Blinding Powder for instant blindness and stealth. Another skill point and you have Roll For Initiative for an instant get out of melee power. Eight skill points and you have Caltrops, which is your AoE equalizer.

What would the disadvantage be to making key aoe abilities available earlier for certain classes?

I already mentioned Caltrops, but how hard can it be to plink around Shaemoor to unlock all your weapon skills?

What would the disadvantage be to buffing P/P, and other poorly designed sets?

I think this is where the problem is, so don’t take it as ‘L2P’. Take it as ditching WoW-instilled notions of MMO combat at the login prompt. Here weapons were not designed to be one size fits all. P/ kitten le-target ranged. Short bow is for AoE ranged. Swords are for AoE melee, dagger main hand is for single target melee, pistols are defensive offhands, daggers are more offensive offhands.

You can level as P/P, you’re just going to have a hard time of it. Black Powder is the best mitigation a thief has against most anything, however using it at range means following up with Vital Shot or hoping Unload or your auto-attack procs the finisher. You’ll be eating through initiative like mad to blind one ranged target at a time. If you really do want to stick with dual pistols, then I recommend either S/P or short bow for your second weapon set.

I run D/P and S/P myself, one for tearing through single targets and the other for when I’m expecting more. Use Black Powder liberally, toss out a Hide In Shadows, Shadow Refuge, or Caltrops as needed, and you can pretty much tank your way through a lot of leveling content. And frankly firing off Black Powder with a blade in the air is as badkitten as Unload.

RebelYell.7132:

Milennin.4825:

Playing Thief is about dodging, though. That’s what the class is supposed to do.

Sounds like a pretty bad PvE class, then. You can’t do anything while dodgerolling in this game. There’s no other way to proc evades AFAIK. Being a class “about dodging” works for, say a Bear or Monk Tank, because you’re also able to do your DPS rotation while doing it. Not here.

“Bear or Monk Tank, because you’re also able to do your DPS rotation while doing it.”
?

I’m sorry to pop your lovely bubble, but this is guild wars 2, not Wow. Apple, Orange.

P/P is not for single target because SB does that better while also being aoe.

Coldtart.4785:

P/P is not for single target because SB does that better while also being aoe.

Maybe its just me, but it looks easier to pull one at a time with P/P than with Ricochet.

Mirta.5029:

Starbird.4029:

Mirta.5029:

Starbird.4029:

Baeyne.9584:

Starbird.4029:

Ashabhi.1365:

Just an old lady’s perspective:

I would rather…

-snip-

TL;DR:
Don’t change the leveling process. Take a look at your class choice instead.

You remind me of people who support Shamans in WoW doing 30% less dps than everyone else ’because…

-snip-

‘Flavour’ is never an excuse for imbalance, in a good game.

It could also be argued that the imbalance you feel may be a matter of prespective. You may feel that a profession is not balanced with the other profession mainly because the profession you chose doesn’t cater to the playstyle you are used to in other games.

To my mind, GW2 is less about numbers and more about actually playing the game.

That is the reason why some people shun a profession in this game, they don’t understand how it works so they veiw it as a “weak” profession and deem the game “imbalanced”.

When you have people asking for thieves to be buffed and at the same time complaining that thieves are OP, the problem, i think is how people percieve other professions.

Edit: changed “nerfed” to “buffed”

The devs have confirmed that thieves need some love in PvE.

Do you disagree?

that’s exactly why they were nerfed, right? Because they were so useless in PVE…

The recent dev chat said that they want to buff rangers and thieves.

From my understanding, most of the PvE nerfs were splashover from PvP.

depends which thief ability will be buffed I suppose. Backstab does so much damage that that invisibility nerf seems really needed. Either that or backstab damage itself should be nerfed. Thieves do have other weapons and builds though, so I suppose if those got a buff it would be just fine?

Or, like any good game, you make stealth work differently in both. Which is hopefully what we are heading towards now.

Making stealth not change aggro was a horrible idea.

Uruz Six.6594:

Starbird.4029:

But okay, let me bounce this back to you.

What would the disadvantage be to letting key self healing and surviveability traits/skills unlock a little earlier for thieves?

You start with Hide In Shadows, that’s a heal, a regen, and a condition remover all in one. Its the best heal you have. One skill point gets you Blinding Powder for instant blindness and stealth. Another skill point and you have Roll For Initiative for an instant get out of melee power. Eight skill points and you have Caltrops, which is your AoE equalizer.

What would the disadvantage be to making key aoe abilities available earlier for certain classes?

I already mentioned Caltrops, but how hard can it be to plink around Shaemoor to unlock all your weapon skills?

What would the disadvantage be to buffing P/P, and other poorly designed sets?

I think this is where the problem is, so don’t take it as ‘L2P’. Take it as ditching WoW-instilled notions of MMO combat at the login prompt. Here weapons were not designed to be one size fits all. P/ kitten le-target ranged. Short bow is for AoE ranged. Swords are for AoE melee, dagger main hand is for single target melee, pistols are defensive offhands, daggers are more offensive offhands.

You can level as P/P, you’re just going to have a hard time of it. Black Powder is the best mitigation a thief has against most anything, however using it at range means following up with Vital Shot or hoping Unload or your auto-attack procs the finisher. You’ll be eating through initiative like mad to blind one ranged target at a time. If you really do want to stick with dual pistols, then I recommend either S/P or short bow for your second weapon set.

I run D/P and S/P myself, one for tearing through single targets and the other for when I’m expecting more. Use Black Powder liberally, toss out a Hide In Shadows, Shadow Refuge, or Caltrops as needed, and you can pretty much tank your way through a lot of leveling content. And frankly firing off Black Powder with a blade in the air is as badkitten as Unload.

If this game is designed around all classes being expected to switch weapon sets constantly, why can my guardian just roflstomp through everything with a greatsword or x + shield while my thief has to either juggle weapon slots to be close to similar in terms of power?

If it’s a matter of ‘thieves are just designed to be harder’ than I go back to my Balance 101 statement.

P/P is not viable for leveling. Possible =/= viable. I still don’t get why you don’t think it should be buffed.

I’m not talking about signet/hide in shadows/weapon skills here. I’m talking about traits and utility stuff.

Poplolita.2638:

RebelYell.7132:

Milennin.4825:

Playing Thief is about dodging, though. That’s what the class is supposed to do.

Sounds like a pretty bad PvE class, then. You can’t do anything while dodgerolling in this game. There’s no other way to proc evades AFAIK. Being a class “about dodging” works for, say a Bear or Monk Tank, because you’re also able to do your DPS rotation while doing it. Not here.

“Bear or Monk Tank, because you’re also able to do your DPS rotation while doing it.”
?

I’m sorry to pop your lovely bubble, but this is guild wars 2, not Wow. Apple, Orange.

That’s not the point he was trying to make, I think.

What he is trying to say (I think) is that while you are dodging and rolling around, you aren’t doing any dps (P/P). Meanwhile a Warrior or Guardian can just facetank a lot of stuff while doing full dps.

I don’t see why you would bother to single pull if you had a SB but SB3 is a single target attack if you really want to fight only one mob. SB does the same dps against 3 as 1 though so you might as well group pull.

agree with the OP.

thief and elementalist are pain to level up on lower levels, they are very squishy, but don’t do more damage than the rest, most of tier1 utilities are crap.

warrior and guardian are very easy, have good utility on the start.

necro feels quite easy to me, maybe because I learned to play…. (my current leveling project)

Lalangamena.3694:

agree with the OP.

thief and elementalist are pain to level up on lower levels, they are very squishy, but don’t do more damage than the rest, most of tier1 utilities are crap.

warrior and guardian are very easy, have good utility on the start.

necro feels quite easy to me, maybe because I learned to play…. (my current leveling project)

I had far more trouble leveling my warrior than my ele.

Vayne.8563:

Lalangamena.3694:

agree with the OP.

thief and elementalist are pain to level up on lower levels, they are very squishy, but don’t do more damage than the rest, most of tier1 utilities are crap.

warrior and guardian are very easy, have good utility on the start.

necro feels quite easy to me, maybe because I learned to play…. (my current leveling project)

I had far more trouble leveling my warrior than my ele.

uh okay? you’re in the minority

slugburp.5431:

Vayne.8563:

Lalangamena.3694:

agree with the OP.

thief and elementalist are pain to level up on lower levels, they are very squishy, but don’t do more damage than the rest, most of tier1 utilities are crap.

warrior and guardian are very easy, have good utility on the start.

necro feels quite easy to me, maybe because I learned to play…. (my current leveling project)

I had far more trouble leveling my warrior than my ele.

uh okay? you’re in the minority

Definitely a possibility though I know other people who share my experience and in fact have even seen posts about it.

Bear with me for a sec I didn’t read the whole thread but noticed you said “I want to level my thief with p/p” and I wanted to point out that since balance can’t be perfect some sets/builds will inevatibly suck for leveling up, just like leveling an holy priest is (was?) a nightmare in wow, or wanting to level a Guardian only using the staff.

Also, regarind Thief’s squishyness… can’t you be invincible to every melee enemy as long as you stay in one of your blind-spamming fields? (smoke screen & black powder, add blinding powder or signet of shadows for extra funzies)

One thing that I really like about Guild Wars 2 is that each class has its own flavour and style of gameplay while leveling up.

Personally, I had more difficulty leveling a warrior over a thief. I really did not “click” with the warrior playstyle. Amusingly enough, I found that playing a necromancer was awesomely fun and “easier” to me.

Further, I had an easier time with an elementalist than I did with a warrior. The Guild Wars 2 warrior and I just didn’t jive and that’s okay with me. :p

As such, I don’t agree with the original poster’s premise nor do I think this thread really has much to do with the original claim of general class imbalance but, instead, is an attempt at a buff thief thread. tsk!

Since a comparison was made with WoW – for the life of me I had a hard time leveling a mage in WoW. My warrior in WoW was soooo much easier. I even wound up being a raid leader on my warrior in WoW. In WoW different classes definitely had different play styles and because of that some were easier to level than others for different people. My rogue in WoW was awesome for me but a friend of mine wasn’t able to bring a rogue past level 20 without huge frustration.

Starbird.4029:

If this game is designed around all classes being expected to switch weapon sets constantly, why can my guardian just roflstomp through everything with a greatsword or x + shield while my thief has to either juggle weapon slots to be close to similar in terms of power?

Aaaaand there we go! I’m pretty sure that you can “roflstomp” everything with a specific thief weapon set too, it just happens that it’s not p/p Staff is a great weapon for guardians but try to level up solely using it Will you come to the forums and ask for a staff buff? Because I’d love for empower to give me 20 stacks of might instead of 12.

Not implying that p/p is fine as-is (might be or not, I don’t play thief so I don’t know), just saying that asking for buffs to a weapon set just because it sucks for leveling up isn’t enough :d

Regarding the issue of balance. I don’t think that the classes are balanced for the lower level PVE content. Instead, the classes are balanced for play at the level 80 and sPvP level.

I think it would be much more difficult to balance across PvP, WvW, PvE and for lower, mid, and high level play.

Consequently, some classes are much more difficult to play at lower levels than others. The thief, mesmer, and elementalist all have numerous threads about their difficulty at these low levels. However, these three classes are among the most formidable at level 80.

In contrast, warriors are easy to level, but are considered among the worst PvP classes.

Sad to say, but certain classes just take longer to level than others. I have an 80 warrior, mesmer a guardian and I can tell you hands gown, the warrior was definitely the easiest. I’m currently leveling a thief and honestly I’ve been far more enjoying leveling with sword/pistol than the standard dagger/dagger setup. You might try different setups. Leveling in this game isn’t about getting from point A to point B. that’s why there are PoI’s, Vistas and skill challenges. It’s the experience getting there. Enjoy leveling your class rather than grinding away to get to the eventual goal of 80.

Starbird.4029:

Its Balance 101. If one class/race/spec etc. requires significantly more skill and investment to perform at the same level as another, then balance is squiffy and needs to be changed. The reason being, in a situation where skill is equal, the other class will probably have an advantage.

Sadly, you’re simply going to find a lot of people who wear their imbalance like a badge of honor. An engineer, for instance, puts in 10% MORE effort to get 10% LESS ouput…and it sort of ramps up from there. The amount of finger dexterity required to approach high end dps seems to be double or more that of an equally performing warrior. (meanwhile the warrior has concentration left over to devote himself to also buffing his group or something) But while you’ll find people complain that certain classes under perform, you’ll almost always hear the same people exclaim how wonderful it is that n00bs needs not apply for the class.

Ideally two things should apply regarding balance:
1. Equal effort receives equal performance: Better players SHOULD have an easier time than everyone else.

2. All weapons/styles of play are viable in the open world: dungeons/pvp/wvw may require certain things, but playing the game in general should allow single target/aoe versions of melee and ranged to play the game and be successful at all levels.

Starbird.4029:

If this game is designed around all classes being expected to switch weapon sets constantly, why can my guardian just roflstomp through everything with a greatsword or x + shield while my thief has to either juggle weapon slots to be close to similar in terms of power?

Because you can roflstomp with Sword + Pistol or Dagger + Pistol.

If it’s a matter of ‘thieves are just designed to be harder’ than I go back to my Balance 101 statement.

Its not harder, its a different playstyle. A class with less HP, less armor, and more trickery skills isn’t the class to look for if you just want to facestomp mobs. And even then, you can still do stand-up fighting as Sword + Pistol.

P/P is not viable for leveling. Possible =/= viable. I still don’t get why you don’t think it should be buffed.

Because it’ll never get the AoE you’re looking for. And what sort of buff? Making Unload as loltastic as 100 Blades? If you thought the cries of ‘OP’ were loud enough on the PvP boards now…

I’m not talking about signet/hide in shadows/weapon skills here. I’m talking about traits and utility stuff.

You mentioned heal, so I mentioned the best heal you could ask for. I’m remiss to think of any other low-rank utilities that provide heals.

As for utilities, I mentioned Caltrops, Roll For Initiative, and Blinding Powder. For traits go 10 in Deadly Arts and now your steals damage and poison – or get Pistol Mastery for 10% more damage. Go 10 in Critical Strikes and convert some of your precision into vitality. Go 10 in Trickery and get a free bevy of boons with every steal. I’m pretty sure there are more veteran thieves who can point out even better traits to pick up. But at the early levels, traits don’t mean much for any class, really.

the game is designed so when you select your class your playing the respective class who can then specialize in certain things.

when you level in WoW or any other MMO i have played you start off playing a bare shell of a class that is as boring as dog poo until you ’’unlock’’ abilities.

atleast with these classes you have the core weapon skills from the outset.

its the way the game is designed, you selct a thief you play a thief not something named a thief with ONE melee attack that acts as a tank until the un-nerfed continent.

i.e. a mesmer uses clones so from the outset your going to have to kitten well learn to use them not kill things with a simple purple bolt until lvl 30 while facetanking them.

Starbird.4029:

Mirta.5029:

Starbird.4029:

Mirta.5029:

Starbird.4029:

Baeyne.9584:

Starbird.4029:

Ashabhi.1365:

Just an old lady’s perspective:

I would rather…

-snip-

TL;DR:
Don’t change the leveling process. Take a look at your class choice instead.

You remind me of people who support Shamans in WoW doing 30% less dps than everyone else ’because…

-snip-

‘Flavour’ is never an excuse for imbalance, in a good game.

It could also be argued that the imbalance you feel may be a matter of prespective. You may feel that a profession is not balanced with the other profession mainly because the profession you chose doesn’t cater to the playstyle you are used to in other games.

To my mind, GW2 is less about numbers and more about actually playing the game.

That is the reason why some people shun a profession in this game, they don’t understand how it works so they veiw it as a “weak” profession and deem the game “imbalanced”.

When you have people asking for thieves to be buffed and at the same time complaining that thieves are OP, the problem, i think is how people percieve other professions.

Edit: changed “nerfed” to “buffed”

The devs have confirmed that thieves need some love in PvE.

Do you disagree?

that’s exactly why they were nerfed, right? Because they were so useless in PVE…

The recent dev chat said that they want to buff rangers and thieves.

From my understanding, most of the PvE nerfs were splashover from PvP.

depends which thief ability will be buffed I suppose. Backstab does so much damage that that invisibility nerf seems really needed. Either that or backstab damage itself should be nerfed. Thieves do have other weapons and builds though, so I suppose if those got a buff it would be just fine?

Or, like any good game, you make stealth work differently in both. Which is hopefully what we are heading towards now.

Making stealth not change aggro was a horrible idea.

being a p/p thief I would always lose aggro when stealthed and to be honest it was a big problem to me, especially when uncontesting CoE with that boss that resets every time someone loses aggro. So I don’t know what you’re talking about.

Starbird.4029:

That’s not the point he was trying to make, I think.

What he is trying to say (I think) is that while you are dodging and rolling around, you aren’t doing any dps (P/P). Meanwhile a Warrior or Guardian can just facetank a lot of stuff while doing full dps.

only bad warriors do that. Standing in one spot not avoiding the damage even on high armor classes ends up with you on the floor.

Wolfheart.1938:

Bear with me for a sec I didn’t read the whole thread but noticed you said “I want to level my thief with p/p” and I wanted to point out that since balance can’t be perfect some sets/builds will inevatibly suck for leveling up, just like leveling an holy priest is (was?) a nightmare in wow, or wanting to level a Guardian only using the staff.

Also, regarind Thief’s squishyness… can’t you be invincible to every melee enemy as long as you stay in one of your blind-spamming fields? (smoke screen & black powder, add blinding powder or signet of shadows for extra funzies)

Actually, guardian is perfectly fine leveling with staff (slower, but very tough and excellent control).

P/P is just horribly undertuned and poorly designed. The spec works against itself and the costs for most of it’s abilities are about double what they should be. Just compare it, pound for pound, with SB.

This isn’t WoW. All specs are a hybrid to some degree. P/P is a glass cannon with no cannon.

Viking Jorun.5413:

Sad to say, but certain classes just take longer to level than others. I have an 80 warrior, mesmer a guardian and I can tell you hands gown, the warrior was definitely the easiest. I’m currently leveling a thief and honestly I’ve been far more enjoying leveling with sword/pistol than the standard dagger/dagger setup. You might try different setups. Leveling in this game isn’t about getting from point A to point B. that’s why there are PoI’s, Vistas and skill challenges. It’s the experience getting there. Enjoy leveling your class rather than grinding away to get to the eventual goal of 80.

SB is also fairly insane once you get the hang of the 2). But I was still ultra ultra squishy for a long time.

Again – I don’t disagree that there are ways around it. I’m just not sure why people are so against P/P getting some love, or class leveling speed/ease being equalized.

Starbird.4029:

Poplolita.2638:

RebelYell.7132:

Milennin.4825:

Playing Thief is about dodging, though. That’s what the class is supposed to do.

Sounds like a pretty bad PvE class, then. You can’t do anything while dodgerolling in this game. There’s no other way to proc evades AFAIK. Being a class “about dodging” works for, say a Bear or Monk Tank, because you’re also able to do your DPS rotation while doing it. Not here.

“Bear or Monk Tank, because you’re also able to do your DPS rotation while doing it.”
?

I’m sorry to pop your lovely bubble, but this is guild wars 2, not Wow. Apple, Orange.

That’s not the point he was trying to make, I think.

What he is trying to say (I think) is that while you are dodging and rolling around, you aren’t doing any dps (P/P). Meanwhile a Warrior or Guardian can just facetank a lot of stuff while doing full dps.

Warrior and Guardians can’t just facetank a lot of stuff while doing FULL DPS. I don’t know what game he was playing, but that’s certainly not gw2. Since, he apparently can’t gasp the fact that guild wars 2 pve mechanic is not the typical one you see in every traditional MMos out there using the holy trinity with no proactive dodge mechanic, I’m not going to further argue with him, it’s pointless.

DrixTrix.7168:

the game is designed so when you select your class your playing the respective class who can then specialize in certain things.

when you level in WoW or any other MMO i have played you start off playing a bare shell of a class that is as boring as dog poo until you ’’unlock’’ abilities.

atleast with these classes you have the core weapon skills from the outset.

its the way the game is designed, you selct a thief you play a thief not something named a thief with ONE melee attack that acts as a tank until the un-nerfed continent.

i.e. a mesmer uses clones so from the outset your going to have to kitten well learn to use them not kill things with a simple purple bolt until lvl 30 while facetanking them.

The problem is that NONE of the classes are remotely close to balanced. I can fully understand someone picking a class and not quite understanding or liking how it plays, but for a good bit of these complaints that isn’t the issue. The issue is that some classes don’t even need to learn to dodge to be incredibly successful where other classes need to dodge, evade, heal, and repeat to even reach 1/2 of the success of the previous class.

I have leveled all but 1 class to 80 and the last one, a mesmer, is ~67. The warrior is the most unbalanced thing in the game. Run up 100b and everything dies. They do way too much damage, have way too much survivability(most base health and armor), and need to give up absolutely nothing to get it. The guardian is very survivable and puts out good damage(no where close to a warrior). I could go into detail on each class but suffice to say that some classes can be played with a ton of skill and will still be at a disadvantage in PvE. The traits just make things worse here because some are incredibly vital to make a class viable, further showing how poorly balanced some classes are.

Balance requires a give and take like you get survivability but you lose damage. ArenaNet has yet to figure this out completely and because of that the classes aren’t balanced. I mean who decided warriors needed the most damage, most health, and most armor? That’s simply bad design, the whole base health/armor system in general is poor balancing considering all classes have melee/ranged options and a lot of classes have the same options(Control, survivability, etc) but different base health and armor.

On topic: If I remember well, since wow vanilla, rogue has always been one of the hardest class, compared to hunters and warlock, to lvl up until you learn moves like vanish, recuperation and preparation; so I rly don’t get the rogue and thief comparision when they are pretty much the same. Furthermore, cataclysm changes brought an utterly broken leveling process. General quests are just beyond easy, even without heirloom, you can basically steamroll everything, it’s not even funny. There is a huge sense of accomplishment missing, whereas in guild wars 2, it’s the complete opposite, I do recall when I got my necromancer at lvl 80: it felt amazing!

You need to get rid of Wow mindset to smooth your transition. If you find it hard to level, or find yourself consistently rushing after mobs, events and hearts, slow down, and take your time! Take the time to learn your profession mechanic (thief has the best mobility and escape in the game, use it at your advantage), to explore the world around you; there is absolutely no need to rush. You can always go in another starter zone if you still feel you’re not capable enough to get into higher lvl zone, and this is what set gw2 apart from other games, no matter where you at,you’ll still get a huge chuck of exp minus bonus exp from higher lvl zone. With that in mind, maybe, you’ll hate guild wars 2 leveling process a little bit less

Note: Seems like a lot of your frustration stems less from leveling exp in general and more from the thief, particularly the p/p build anyway.

I’m just throwing this out there – I’ve leveled multiple toons, including both Thief and Elementalist, and Thief is unquestionably too squishy for its offensive output and utility, at least at lower levels. On top of that, they have a Downed State that is utterly horrid in solo PvE. Lastly, Stealth not dropping Aggro was one of the most ham-brained ideas I have ever heard of in my life, and cannot even begin to fathom where it came from.

And P/P is among the worst sets in the game, it’s very poorly designed within the context of the Initiative system, but more importantly Vital Shot is broken and fires way too slowly for its offensive specs. This is also probably the same problem with Longbows, Staffs, and Scepters (and notably NOT Rifles).

The problem is really with a specific weapon set not with the class. P/P thieves are just bad for PvE, the reason is that the weapon set is a contradiction. your auto attack skill is mostly for condition damage, it keeps a nice 5 stack of bleeds on the target. your 2 skill is completely worthless. It will always result in less dps then anything else you can do until there are 60+ players attacking the target, then the 1% dmg increase it offers will outweigh the cost. 3 skill is pure dps and pretty good dps, but it has no condition dmg so using it negates your autoattack as it lets your bleed stacks fall off. 4 and 5 are both very useful defensive skills, but they are neither good for dps or condition damage.

Basically pistol has needed a complete redesign since BWE 1. it just has never happened. it either needs to be a direct dps weapon, a condition dps weapon or something else, but right now it is just a waste of time and space compared to every other weapon available to the thief.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

The problem is really with a specific weapon set not with the class. P/P thieves are just bad for PvE, the reason is that the weapon set is a contradiction. your auto attack skill is mostly for condition damage, it keeps a nice 5 stack of bleeds on the target. your 2 skill is completely worthless. It will always result in less dps then anything else you can do until there are 60+ players attacking the target, then the 1% dmg increase it offers will outweigh the cost. 3 skill is pure dps and pretty good dps, but it has no condition dmg so using it negates your autoattack as it lets your bleed stacks fall off. 4 and 5 are both very useful defensive skills, but they are neither good for dps or condition damage.

Basically pistol has needed a complete redesign since BWE 1. it just has never happened. it either needs to be a direct dps weapon, a condition dps weapon or something else, but right now it is just a waste of time and space compared to every other weapon available to the thief.

I would disagree
may attack does not do much damage, but your second attack stacks vulnerability. Very useful in dungeons. Going invisible and using your 3rd skill is plenty good as well.

Mirta.5029:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

The problem is really with a specific weapon set not with the class. P/P thieves are just bad for PvE, the reason is that the weapon set is a contradiction. your auto attack skill is mostly for condition damage, it keeps a nice 5 stack of bleeds on the target. your 2 skill is completely worthless. It will always result in less dps then anything else you can do until there are 60+ players attacking the target, then the 1% dmg increase it offers will outweigh the cost. 3 skill is pure dps and pretty good dps, but it has no condition dmg so using it negates your autoattack as it lets your bleed stacks fall off. 4 and 5 are both very useful defensive skills, but they are neither good for dps or condition damage.

Basically pistol has needed a complete redesign since BWE 1. it just has never happened. it either needs to be a direct dps weapon, a condition dps weapon or something else, but right now it is just a waste of time and space compared to every other weapon available to the thief.

I would disagree
may attack does not do much damage, but your second attack stacks vulnerability. Very useful in dungeons. Going invisible and using your 3rd skill is plenty good as well.

No, it’s exactly what he said. It is badly designed, but the most egregious problem is how weak Vital Shot is, which forces you into Unload dumping, which means you might as well not have an autoattack, and also means you stay Initiative depleted and can’t use the other skills.

It’s really a terrible set and needs to be redesigned.

Einlanzer.1627:

Mirta.5029:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

The problem is really with a specific weapon set not with the class. P/P thieves are just bad for PvE, the reason is that the weapon set is a contradiction. your auto attack skill is mostly for condition damage, it keeps a nice 5 stack of bleeds on the target. your 2 skill is completely worthless. It will always result in less dps then anything else you can do until there are 60+ players attacking the target, then the 1% dmg increase it offers will outweigh the cost. 3 skill is pure dps and pretty good dps, but it has no condition dmg so using it negates your autoattack as it lets your bleed stacks fall off. 4 and 5 are both very useful defensive skills, but they are neither good for dps or condition damage.

Basically pistol has needed a complete redesign since BWE 1. it just has never happened. it either needs to be a direct dps weapon, a condition dps weapon or something else, but right now it is just a waste of time and space compared to every other weapon available to the thief.

I would disagree
may attack does not do much damage, but your second attack stacks vulnerability. Very useful in dungeons. Going invisible and using your 3rd skill is plenty good as well.

No, it’s exactly what he said. It is badly designed, but the most egregious problem is how weak Vital Shot is, which forces you into Unload dumping, which means you might as well not have an autoattack, and also means you stay Initiative depleted and can’t use the other skills.

It’s really a terrible set and needs to be redesigned.

the set is not terrible, it’s only the auto-attack that actually needs redesigning. Unload does a hell of a lot of damage and thieves in p/p are the only ones able to stack vulnerability that efficiently.

Mirta.5029:

Einlanzer.1627:

Mirta.5029:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

The problem is really with a specific weapon set not with the class. P/P thieves are just bad for PvE, the reason is that the weapon set is a contradiction. your auto attack skill is mostly for condition damage, it keeps a nice 5 stack of bleeds on the target. your 2 skill is completely worthless. It will always result in less dps then anything else you can do until there are 60+ players attacking the target, then the 1% dmg increase it offers will outweigh the cost. 3 skill is pure dps and pretty good dps, but it has no condition dmg so using it negates your autoattack as it lets your bleed stacks fall off. 4 and 5 are both very useful defensive skills, but they are neither good for dps or condition damage.

Basically pistol has needed a complete redesign since BWE 1. it just has never happened. it either needs to be a direct dps weapon, a condition dps weapon or something else, but right now it is just a waste of time and space compared to every other weapon available to the thief.

I would disagree
may attack does not do much damage, but your second attack stacks vulnerability. Very useful in dungeons. Going invisible and using your 3rd skill is plenty good as well.

No, it’s exactly what he said. It is badly designed, but the most egregious problem is how weak Vital Shot is, which forces you into Unload dumping, which means you might as well not have an autoattack, and also means you stay Initiative depleted and can’t use the other skills.

It’s really a terrible set and needs to be redesigned.

the set is not terrible, it’s only the auto-attack that actually needs redesigning. Unload does a hell of a lot of damage and thieves in p/p are the only ones able to stack vulnerability that efficiently.

Well, Vital Shot is definitely a disproportionate contributor to the problems with the set and fixing it would definitely make it a lot less bad than it is now, but there’s still plenty about it that just isn’t quite up to par.

Ricochet is needlessly inferior to the Piercing available elsewhere. It should be something like a 50% chance to bounce to one target and a 25% chance to bounce to a second one.

Body Shot is far too situational to be considered good. Even as a Vuln. stacker it is inferior to many other skills from other professions. It needs to do more direct damage or have some secondary effect.

Head shot should probably cause momentary confusion or something. With P/P you have very limited mobility and kiting ability outside of relying on certain utilities like Caltrops.

Black Powder would be fine if you could actually use it, but you can’t because in order to make any headway in fights you have to sink 100% of your Initiative into Unload.

Okay, I think I see the confusion here. I was not understanding because your complaints don’t actually have anything to do with Thieves leveling worse than other classes at low levels.

You’re complaints are related to Thief strength in pve as a whole. Many people have complained about recent nerfs including the revealed nerf and stealth no longer dropping aggro as making thief weak in pve. Also many people have complained about P/P being a worthless set and very few people would actually disagree with you on this point (just check out the thief forums).

Why Is Leveling Experience So Inconsistent?

Because the professions are vastly different.

Distaste.4801:

DrixTrix.7168:

the game is designed so when you select your class your playing the respective class who can then specialize in certain things.

when you level in WoW or any other MMO i have played you start off playing a bare shell of a class that is as boring as dog poo until you ’’unlock’’ abilities.

atleast with these classes you have the core weapon skills from the outset.

its the way the game is designed, you selct a thief you play a thief not something named a thief with ONE melee attack that acts as a tank until the un-nerfed continent.

i.e. a mesmer uses clones so from the outset your going to have to kitten well learn to use them not kill things with a simple purple bolt until lvl 30 while facetanking them.

The problem is that NONE of the classes are remotely close to balanced. I can fully understand someone picking a class and not quite understanding or liking how it plays, but for a good bit of these complaints that isn’t the issue. The issue is that some classes don’t even need to learn to dodge to be incredibly successful where other classes need to dodge, evade, heal, and repeat to even reach 1/2 of the success of the previous class.

I have leveled all but 1 class to 80 and the last one, a mesmer, is ~67. The warrior is the most unbalanced thing in the game. Run up 100b and everything dies. They do way too much damage, have way too much survivability(most base health and armor), and need to give up absolutely nothing to get it. The guardian is very survivable and puts out good damage(no where close to a warrior). I could go into detail on each class but suffice to say that some classes can be played with a ton of skill and will still be at a disadvantage in PvE. The traits just make things worse here because some are incredibly vital to make a class viable, further showing how poorly balanced some classes are.

Balance requires a give and take like you get survivability but you lose damage. ArenaNet has yet to figure this out completely and because of that the classes aren’t balanced. I mean who decided warriors needed the most damage, most health, and most armor? That’s simply bad design, the whole base health/armor system in general is poor balancing considering all classes have melee/ranged options and a lot of classes have the same options(Control, survivability, etc) but different base health and armor.

Well said.

Quinci.5968:

Okay, I think I see the confusion here. I was not understanding because your complaints don’t actually have anything to do with Thieves leveling worse than other classes at low levels.

You’re complaints are related to Thief strength in pve as a whole. Many people have complained about recent nerfs including the revealed nerf and stealth no longer dropping aggro as making thief weak in pve. Also many people have complained about P/P being a worthless set and very few people would actually disagree with you on this point (just check out the thief forums).

Well, quite a few people have said something like “I don’t want P/P buffed because thieves need to L2P and different specs are different” in this thread. Which confuses me.

But yeah, yet another thread about someone getting kicked from a group ‘because thief’.

Mirta.5029:

Einlanzer.1627:

Mirta.5029:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

The problem is really with a specific weapon set not with the class. P/P thieves are just bad for PvE, the reason is that the weapon set is a contradiction. your auto attack skill is mostly for condition damage, it keeps a nice 5 stack of bleeds on the target. your 2 skill is completely worthless. It will always result in less dps then anything else you can do until there are 60+ players attacking the target, then the 1% dmg increase it offers will outweigh the cost. 3 skill is pure dps and pretty good dps, but it has no condition dmg so using it negates your autoattack as it lets your bleed stacks fall off. 4 and 5 are both very useful defensive skills, but they are neither good for dps or condition damage.

Basically pistol has needed a complete redesign since BWE 1. it just has never happened. it either needs to be a direct dps weapon, a condition dps weapon or something else, but right now it is just a waste of time and space compared to every other weapon available to the thief.

I would disagree
may attack does not do much damage, but your second attack stacks vulnerability. Very useful in dungeons. Going invisible and using your 3rd skill is plenty good as well.

No, it’s exactly what he said. It is badly designed, but the most egregious problem is how weak Vital Shot is, which forces you into Unload dumping, which means you might as well not have an autoattack, and also means you stay Initiative depleted and can’t use the other skills.

It’s really a terrible set and needs to be redesigned.

the set is not terrible, it’s only the auto-attack that actually needs redesigning. Unload does a hell of a lot of damage and thieves in p/p are the only ones able to stack vulnerability that efficiently.

1) Is still bugged, and probably will be forever. Also, until this is made pure damage (or Unload is given a condition) the spec will suck.

Unload is a strong dps skill, but single target only. SB 2) Is very close, costs way less initiative and does aoe.

4 and 5 are useful, but drain so much initiative that you may as well not even bother. You need that for unload.

I don’t feel there is anything wrong with classes that have different learning curves and differing levels of skill to play. In Tera, classes were rated based on skill needed to master. Of course, there are no such warnings in game in GW2, but they are available on the forums if you poke around.

As to WoW’s early leveling experience being on an even keel no matter the class, that is easy to accomplish with class design where you get 1 to 2 skills starting out, and just use those. WoW skill acquisition is also glacially slow in comparison with GW2, at least on the weapon side. I’m sorry, but while the OP may have enjoyed leveling in WoW, I found the process to be so mind-numbingly boring that only the few F2P grinders were worse. So, I might be a bit inclined to view any comparisons to WoW in a negative light.

Are GW2 classes unbalanced early? Probably, since they don’t seem all that well balanced at 80. The meta will change over time, and some of those changes might filter down to the early experience.

IndigoSundown.5419:

I might be a bit inclined to view any comparisons to WoW in a negative light.

As is much of this forum, which can make serious game design discussion troublesome.