Guild Wars 2

Some classes seem to be almost a “must have” (Warrior, Mesmer), while others seem to be considered useless (Ranger, Necro). Has ANet even considered buffs to the “lesser” classes?

It could be that I just have a shallow view of the classes, but I don’t think that’s the case. The “good” classes seem to be sought out, while the others are usually dismissed or kicked from groups.

I play a Zerk Warrior, and don’t have even the smallest issue getting invited to groups, while on my Necro, I couldn’t get a group to save my life. It’s really discouraging to not be able to play the class you want.

A lot of people have been waiting a long time for buffs to the ‘lesser’ classes. I think it is much needed, hell everybody does. Only time will tell? I would think anet has been working on buffs/fixes for them bc they are def. up…

1. No trinity makes it hard to balance professions. There are no roles, so professions cannot be buffed to better perform their roles.

2. No attrition. With nothing like mana, ammunition, scrap, etc, no profession can compensate for a lack in one area by being longer lasting. Everyone gets a self-heal of around 30-45 seconds, everyone gets 3 utilities and one elite.

3. Without those factors, only one really remains: who can make the fight end soonest. Warriors, Mesmers, and Guardians are the most proven in that department.

I agree. I’d make the case it’s even worse than that, not only can you not realy play the class you want in a specific chapter of the game (general PVE, instanced PVE, WVW, sPVP) due to meta-game imbalances, but even within the “good” classes for a specific chapter there are “must-have” specs.

Clearly, the various game modes value different aspects of skills more than others, e.g. mobility is high on the list in PVP modes, but next to worthless in PVE game modes, and this makes things hard to balance. However, it’s also clear that many of these meta-imbalances are due to bad game design choices.

For example, hundred blades – a very high DPS move on a low CD that roots the caster in place. Great (best?) skill in PVE, crappy in PVP. Removing the self-root aspect of the skill and rebalancing the CD and damage component appropriately seems like a no-brainer. You can always add a new warrior trait that reverts the skill to its current state, and the implied requirement for immobilisation in the current skill could be retained through bonus damage to immobilised targets.

Another no-brainer – Ele staff. 19/20 skills on the thing are AOE, which pidgeonholes the whole use of the weapon into performing well at niche aspects of the game (zerg WVW, PVP support bunker), and making it crappy at everything else.

Conditions. A critical factor in higher end PVP but virtually irrelevant in PVE due to caps and being overshadowed by 4x zerk warrior 100 blades + timewarp.

I’d argue the game needs a lots more onConditionRemoved- and onConditionGained-type abilities here, as well as more abilities with additional effects/damage based on the presence or absence of certain conditions. There is a too much of a gulf between condition-based and power-based damage, and more conditional effects (pun!) would be a good way to bridge that gap.

There are other examples.

These issues have been around since before the release of the game, and volumes have been written about them, however the game designers continue to play the laissez-faire card when it’s been obvious for more than half a year that these issues exist. I’ve come to the conclusion they simply aren’t very good designers. Claims of being ultra-passionate and listening to the community etc are not borne out by 8 months of continued inaction.

Teracide.5137:

Some classes seem to be almost a “must have” (Warrior, Mesmer), while others seem to be considered useless (Ranger, Necro). Has ANet even considered buffs to the “lesser” classes?

I think you’re premise is incorrect. People might think this is the case, but it doesn’t seem to play out.

In PvE, they really do balance well.

People are dumb, the simple builds that work are desired above all else.. the unknown is shunned for little reason beyond “I heard it was bad”

Rangers and Necros are far from useless, just harder to get great performance from really.. good players on these professions do great things.

i don’t think there’s any content in pve difficult enough for people to worry about what classes they should take.

I run dungeons with rangers, necros and engies all the time. With my guild. We’ve beaten all the content in the game. We have necro who’s a dungeon master who’s up to 30 plus level fractals. He’s good at his profession.

I have a ranger in my guild who I’d rather have in my dungeon party than any warrior I know. He’s real good. In addition to being real good, he brings the skill search and revive, so if someone goes down his pet can rez while we keep fighting. Prevented a couple of big problems in hard areas.

At the end of the day, a profession is only as good as the person who plays it. Anyone can pretty much learn how to play a warrior. That means for a lot of people, warrior is a good choice…because they’re not great players.

The only real issue is stuff like the limited paths for builds that necros and engies can use. Like no one at high level play would ever play a minion master necro, and no one at high level play would play a turret engie. At least not in PVe. PvP is a different matter completely (and I’ve seen turrent engies and minion masters used to good advantage there.

You’re far more likely to get a bad engineer than a bad warrior, but the fact is, that doesn’t make the professions all that different. It’s the same with a thief. There are a lot of bad thieves out there, and a lot of good ones. Is the profession bad…or the player?

That’s not to say there aren’t some balancing issues. But on how bad the are, opinions are deeply divided.

Vayne.8563:

I have a ranger in my guild who I’d rather have in my dungeon party than any warrior I know. He’s real good. In addition to being real good, he brings the skill search and revive, so if someone goes down his pet can rez while we keep fighting. Prevented a couple of big problems in hard areas.

That’s an important point in regards to what the OP asked, that I hadn’t thought of – strangers cannot know how good he is when recruiting for a PUG. You know how good your guildmates are. Perhaps a small, dungeon-focused guild is just what he needs.

I’ve come to think that the playerbase is just way to defensive, and what we need is Gordon Ramsey to scream some sense into them.

Just try telling the Necros that they aren’t wanted in groups, and they start talking about condition removal. They think they are the greatest thing since sliced bread; everyone else thinks their garbage.

…and what’s really infuriating is that I was really starting to really like my flamethrower engi, and Anet killed it. Nerfed damage, nerfed Kit Refinement.. what’s the point?

…but people will still defend them. People still ask for ‘good’ flamethrower builds.

The most painful part of it all, most of the time the playerbase has some really good ideas. Like let rangers stow their pets and receive a small damage buff. Why do they fight the players on that? It’s a good idea. Hell.. they could even just add a pet that only gives a stat buff, and doesn’t attack.

They won’t even listen to any of that. Just look at how they ignore engineers begging for KR to be restored to what it was (I did my share of griping about it) Hell, I’d give up all the other effects, if they would just give me elixirgun procs… but no.. not even a comment on the subject.

And why did warriors, mesmers, and guardians not get the ‘quality of life’ speed buff?

Siege weapons can’t bleed… But you can kill lava flows with fireballs….

/facepalm

Ruggy.7819:

People are dumb, the simple builds that work are desired above all else.. the unknown is shunned for little reason beyond “I heard it was bad”

Rangers and Necros are far from useless, just harder to get great performance from really.. good players on these professions do great things.

I agree up to a certain point. As a necro main in PvE I must cast blood is power then focus (4) and axe (2) to kill an enemy quickly. A warrior can do the same with one 100b AND the enemy is dead quicker. Of course it depends upon the build, enemy fought etc. but it just seems that having to use 3 buttons to do less damage than one button on a warrior isn’t a skill issue it is a balance one.

I agree that in the hands of a skilled player some lessor professions can do great things, but must we all be Mozart in order to play a banjo?

There is a big problem with simple buffs though. Even if they buffed the less desired classes, a warrior/mesmer/possibly guard group will still be standard. If the lesser classes were buffed above one of those three then replace that one with the new class.

This is just something that is a result from having two ideals being no trinity and no required classes/specs. Because nothing is required DPS will always be king and so the groups best at DPS will be on top.

100 Blades isn’t the only thing Warriors bring to the table.

Look at Banner of Discipline vs Rifle Turret: you can move it without destroying it. It has more uptime. It contributes more DPS when affecting five players. It doesn’t rely on GW2’s godawful pet AI.

How this disparity made it past BWE, I have no idea.

RebelYell.7132:

Vayne.8563:

I have a ranger in my guild who I’d rather have in my dungeon party than any warrior I know. He’s real good. In addition to being real good, he brings the skill search and revive, so if someone goes down his pet can rez while we keep fighting. Prevented a couple of big problems in hard areas.

That’s an important point in regards to what the OP asked, that I hadn’t thought of – strangers cannot know how good he is when recruiting for a PUG. You know how good your guildmates are. Perhaps a small, dungeon-focused guild is just what he needs.

Yeah, this ranger guy is awesome. Every time I’m in a party with him, we just breeze through dungeons….even Arah. Not so much with other people. It could just be that the same core group plays together so often and know each other so well that we just work well together…like a well oiled machine. I’m a mesmer. My wife is a guardian. Chris is a ranger. And we usually have either a necro and another guardian with us, or a necro and an engie. And we do really well.

But we definitely aren’t pugging, and we talk about what we’re bringing. We know one guardian is going more DPS so the other guy rolls support, for example.

RebelYell.7132:

100 Blades isn’t the only thing Warriors bring to the table.

Look at Banner of Discipline vs Rifle Turret: you can move it without destroying it. It has more uptime. It contributes more DPS when affecting five players. It doesn’t rely on GW2’s godawful pet AI.

How this disparity made it past BWE, I have no idea.

On the other hand, rocket turret is a much much better turret.

Vayne.8563:

I run dungeons with rangers, necros and engies all the time. With my guild. We’ve beaten all the content in the game. We have necro who’s a dungeon master who’s up to 30 plus level fractals. He’s good at his profession.

I have a ranger in my guild who I’d rather have in my dungeon party than any warrior I know. He’s real good. In addition to being real good, he brings the skill search and revive, so if someone goes down his pet can rez while we keep fighting. Prevented a couple of big problems in hard areas.

At the end of the day, a profession is only as good as the person who plays it. Anyone can pretty much learn how to play a warrior. That means for a lot of people, warrior is a good choice…because they’re not great players.

The only real issue is stuff like the limited paths for builds that necros and engies can use. Like no one at high level play would ever play a minion master necro, and no one at high level play would play a turret engie. At least not in PVe. PvP is a different matter completely (and I’ve seen turrent engies and minion masters used to good advantage there.

You’re far more likely to get a bad engineer than a bad warrior, but the fact is, that doesn’t make the professions all that different. It’s the same with a thief. There are a lot of bad thieves out there, and a lot of good ones. Is the profession bad…or the player?

That’s not to say there aren’t some balancing issues. But on how bad the are, opinions are deeply divided.

It’s not really a matter of “Good Player vs Bad Player”. That’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about classes being played at their highest sill-level. The efficiency of Warriors, Mesmers and Guardians is just simply much higher than that of a Ranger or Engineer.

I’m not doubting that a good player is going to be good no matter which class they choose. I’m saying that a good Engineer won’t be near as efficient as a good Warrior. The classes themselves are flawed, not the level of skill required to play the “lesser” classes.

Vayne.8563:

I run dungeons with rangers, necros and engies all the time. With my guild. We’ve beaten all the content in the game. We have necro who’s a dungeon master who’s up to 30 plus level fractals. He’s good at his profession.

I have a ranger in my guild who I’d rather have in my dungeon party than any warrior I know. He’s real good. In addition to being real good, he brings the skill search and revive, so if someone goes down his pet can rez while we keep fighting. Prevented a couple of big problems in hard areas.

At the end of the day, a profession is only as good as the person who plays it. Anyone can pretty much learn how to play a warrior. That means for a lot of people, warrior is a good choice…because they’re not great players.

The only real issue is stuff like the limited paths for builds that necros and engies can use. Like no one at high level play would ever play a minion master necro, and no one at high level play would play a turret engie. At least not in PVe. PvP is a different matter completely (and I’ve seen turrent engies and minion masters used to good advantage there.

You’re far more likely to get a bad engineer than a bad warrior, but the fact is, that doesn’t make the professions all that different. It’s the same with a thief. There are a lot of bad thieves out there, and a lot of good ones. Is the profession bad…or the player?

That’s not to say there aren’t some balancing issues. But on how bad the are, opinions are deeply divided.

Your anecdotal evidence is insufficient to demonstrate your assertion; just because certain class arrangements work and are reliable in some scenarios doesn’t mean the balance issues are negligible or minor. That’s a hasty generalization fallacy (one you make quite often as I read your post history).

You pay lip service to the idea that balance issues are debatable, but imply that they are not problematic in any serious way, which is simply to gratuitously deny the very issue this thread is trying to raise. A more detail and fact-based post would have been more helpful (see the kind mjharrison provided) and, in fact, is necessary to establish your position.

mjharrison.3209:

Another no-brainer – Ele staff. 19/20 skills on the thing are AOE, which pidgeonholes the whole use of the weapon into performing well at niche aspects of the game (zerg WVW, PVP support bunker), and making it crappy at everything else.

…

These issues have been around since before the release of the game, and volumes have been written about them, however the game designers continue to play the laissez-faire card when it’s been obvious for more than half a year that these issues exist. I’ve come to the conclusion they simply aren’t very good designers. Claims of being ultra-passionate and listening to the community etc are not borne out by 8 months of continued inaction.

Sadly, I tend to agree. I just returned after a six month absence. I played for several days, found myself having to completely re-gear from Staff to D/D on my Elementalist in order to merely survive in WvW, and then asked what I was doing playing this game.

Even if they just removed the downstate in all PvP modes, that would be a tremendous step in the right direction.

Maybe another six month break is in order.

Its less about what class you play as its more about being in a guild or not. MMORPG are about playing with other ppl mainly the ones you talk to. Randomly grouping with ppl and having no commutation is NOT how you play this game. This is not WoW anonymous dungeon finder where you can effectively play as a solo game this is about playing with other ppl and not simply playing beside them but truly playing with them.
I cant even imagine how any would even want to play this game with out the party aspect part of the game let alone any online game at all.

Jski.6180:

Its less about what class you play as its more about being in a guild or not. MMORPG are about playing with other ppl mainly the ones you talk to. Randomly grouping with ppl and having no commutation is NOT how you play this game. This is not WoW anonymous dungeon finder where you can effectively play as a solo game this is about playing with other ppl and not simply playing beside them but truly playing with them.
I cant even imagine how any would even want to play this game with out the party aspect part of the game let alone any online game at all.

How did you take a thread about the imbalance of classes and turn it into a “Guild or gtfo!” thread? I am in a guild. I run with the guild all the time. We have Necros and Rangers that run with us. They’re OK players, but it’s literally impossible to run explorables at a farmable pace with them, or any other non-Warrior or non-Mesmer in the group.

Even in full Exotic gear, anything other than a Warrior, Mesmer, or Guardian is just sub-optimal. The content is easy enough to complete with just about any group composition, but if you’re looking to get things done at a good pace, you’re going to take 4 Zerk Warriors and a Mesmer. That’s what makes the balance of the game broken. If ANet refuses to fix or even acknowledge these issues, they’re really just hurting their own game.

Teracide.5137:

Jski.6180:

Its less about what class you play as its more about being in a guild or not. MMORPG are about playing with other ppl mainly the ones you talk to. Randomly grouping with ppl and having no commutation is NOT how you play this game. This is not WoW anonymous dungeon finder where you can effectively play as a solo game this is about playing with other ppl and not simply playing beside them but truly playing with them.
I cant even imagine how any would even want to play this game with out the party aspect part of the game let alone any online game at all.

How did you take a thread about the imbalance of classes and turn it into a “Guild or gtfo!” thread? I am in a guild. I run with the guild all the time. We have Necros and Rangers that run with us. They’re OK players, but it’s literally impossible to run explorables at a farmable pace with them, or any other non-Warrior or non-Mesmer in the group.

Even in full Exotic gear, anything other than a Warrior, Mesmer, or Guardian is just sub-optimal. The content is easy enough to complete with just about any group composition, but if you’re looking to get things done at a good pace, you’re going to take 4 Zerk Warriors and a Mesmer. That’s what makes the balance of the game broken. If ANet refuses to fix or even acknowledge these issues, they’re really just hurting their own game.

That the thing classes will never truly be balance you can yell blue in the faces and get nothing done but an overreaction. It was say 3 months ago when ppl where crying to no end saying how Mesmers and Warriors where pointless in pve now due to speed runs they are all what ppl want. This is not a balance issues this is a prospective issues. Right now the community is leaning to a high dmg view point and it works to a point. There are more ways to beat dungeon then just the all in dmg.
The way Anet could fix it is by nerfing CoF path 1 rewards and buffing the other paths / dungeon to reflect the work and time put into the run. That alone would stop dead the need for Mesmers and Warrior only set up. They have already tried to deal with this by making quickness less effect. Before they did this Mesmer could doable (100%) “dps” now its only a 50%. They are also changing dungeon so far only AC been hit a lot but CoF was changed some what and no doubt in my mind that they will keep chaining CoF and the higher level ones as time goes on.
So Anet IS doing something you just may not like what they are doing or just comply unwilling to acknowledge it.

Although I agree with professions not being evenly effective, I have never been kicked from a group for running a certain profession. I main a necro and dungeon mostly with that toon while the runner up dungeon runner is an engineer.

Saying “I rip up dungeons with my ranger friend” is pretty meaningless. You can clear content no problem with a ranger in your group. I cleared a bunch of level 80 dungeon paths no problem with a guy in his level 20s tagging along. Point is, it would have been easier and quicker if the same guy was playing something better. A good ranger or necromancer isn’t even in the same league as someone just as capable playing a warrior or guardian. The difference is staggering. It’s pretty rare I bother taking my 80 necro or ranger into dungeons these days. My warrior, mesmer, and guardian get a ton of use though, because I know it’ll speed things up considerably and if I end up in a bad group I might be able to pull them through. Thief gets a lot of use too, but that’s only because I really enjoy the class and it isn’t -total- garbage.

In short.
A Great Player could play Ranger/Necro real good.
The same Great Player could run Other Classes even better!

nuff said

Guns and Giblets.9308:

Vayne.8563:

I run dungeons with rangers, necros and engies all the time. With my guild. We’ve beaten all the content in the game. We have necro who’s a dungeon master who’s up to 30 plus level fractals. He’s good at his profession.

I have a ranger in my guild who I’d rather have in my dungeon party than any warrior I know. He’s real good. In addition to being real good, he brings the skill search and revive, so if someone goes down his pet can rez while we keep fighting. Prevented a couple of big problems in hard areas.

At the end of the day, a profession is only as good as the person who plays it. Anyone can pretty much learn how to play a warrior. That means for a lot of people, warrior is a good choice…because they’re not great players.

The only real issue is stuff like the limited paths for builds that necros and engies can use. Like no one at high level play would ever play a minion master necro, and no one at high level play would play a turret engie. At least not in PVe. PvP is a different matter completely (and I’ve seen turrent engies and minion masters used to good advantage there.

You’re far more likely to get a bad engineer than a bad warrior, but the fact is, that doesn’t make the professions all that different. It’s the same with a thief. There are a lot of bad thieves out there, and a lot of good ones. Is the profession bad…or the player?

That’s not to say there aren’t some balancing issues. But on how bad the are, opinions are deeply divided.

Your anecdotal evidence is insufficient to demonstrate your assertion; just because certain class arrangements work and are reliable in some scenarios doesn’t mean the balance issues are negligible or minor. That’s a hasty generalization fallacy (one you make quite often as I read your post history).

You pay lip service to the idea that balance issues are debatable, but imply that they are not problematic in any serious way, which is simply to gratuitously deny the very issue this thread is trying to raise. A more detail and fact-based post would have been more helpful (see the kind mjharrison provided) and, in fact, is necessary to establish your position.

I simply say not everyone plays games the same way and efficiency, rated very high by some, isn’t rated as highly by others. As long as I can get the job done, I’m quite happy and so are a whole lot of other people.

Do you really think the vast majority of players are min/maxers or they’re worried about killing something 10% slower? I don’t.

Sure there are balance issues. I never said they weren’t. But they’re only the sky is falling type of balance issues for a certain type of player and those type of players, in my opinion, do not hold a majority.

How do you hit and miss?

Obviously, if you hit, then it’s not a miss. If you miss, you didn’t hit the point you aimed at.

I totally agree with the Op, it’s unfortunate they intended it to be this way. Designing a system where the “strong” classes reigns *Supreme
in getting invited to party’s.. while having the “lesser” classes carrry the burden of Isolation, Neglect and Unworthiness.

And pitting the “must have”class against the “lesser” classes; Justifying their actions no matter what.

I have many testimonies of my own being intentionally kicked out from a party as a ranger and necromancer for a “must have” classes. When questioned why I was kicked, the replay I got “you’re too slow and your not hitting hard enough”

“The sky is the limit” for the “must have” classes… .

In conclusion. Obviously that’s a Great hit-and-miss, Gw2 couldve been a Great game.. but unfortunately..

The problem is, if all you care about is efficiency, you’ll see professions as horribly imbalanced. If all you care about is going out and having a good time and not worrying overly about speed and numbers, you won’t. Your play style is going to have a huge impact on how you see the degree of imbalance.

To say that the game is highly imbalanced because of the efficiency thing may well be all true. But since it doesn’t affect my game at all, or the game of those who play like me…or at least it affects it in relatively minor ways. well to me the game isn’t that unbalanced. It really is a matter of perspective.

By all means if you play a min/max style or like to speed farm, or whatever it is you people do, that’s great. Just keep in mind you’re not necessarily the majority of the gaming population.

There’s no hit and miss. Just difference….period. Tweaks need to be made, but my 80 ranger, 80 guardian (twice done), and soon to be 80 engi can tell you that there’s not much “hit and miss” as there is player “miss”

Gestankfaust.4216:

There’s no hit and miss. Just difference….period. Tweaks need to be made, but my 80 ranger, 80 guardian (twice done), and soon to be 80 engi can tell you that there’s not much “hit and miss” as there is player “miss”

The other side is arguing that warriors are more efficient than rangers, for a person who plays each with the same skill. I’m pretty sure they’re right about that. So people who worry about efficiency will feel that they have no choice but to play a warrior.

It’s a fair enough complaint, actually, without all the hyperbole surrounding it, with the sky is falling business.

Stuff will get fixed, eventually, I’m pretty sure warriors will end up getting a nerf and then we all get to enjoy their tears of suffering for a while.

Vayne.8563:

Gestankfaust.4216:

There’s no hit and miss. Just difference….period. Tweaks need to be made, but my 80 ranger, 80 guardian (twice done), and soon to be 80 engi can tell you that there’s not much “hit and miss” as there is player “miss”

The other side is arguing that warriors are more efficient than rangers, for a person who plays each with the same skill. I’m pretty sure they’re right about that. So people who worry about efficiency will feel that they have no choice but to play a warrior.

It’s a fair enough complaint, actually, without all the hyperbole surrounding it, with the sky is falling business.

Stuff will get fixed, eventually, I’m pretty sure warriors will end up getting a nerf and then we all get to enjoy their tears of suffering for a while.

But….they aren’t when I’m there. They do their thing and I do mine. They live because I’m there sometimes (a lot of the time)

It’s really funnny to see what’s posted here these days. Then living it on the field. My Guard is great for damage and AoE, but goes down and needs help. But when I play my Ranger…I’m a catch all. I damage, can release to rez, or whatever. But I live in the end with my Ranger more than the Guard or any Warrior in the mix. Of course this is “only” PvE

Gestankfaust.4216:

Vayne.8563:

Gestankfaust.4216:

There’s no hit and miss. Just difference….period. Tweaks need to be made, but my 80 ranger, 80 guardian (twice done), and soon to be 80 engi can tell you that there’s not much “hit and miss” as there is player “miss”

The other side is arguing that warriors are more efficient than rangers, for a person who plays each with the same skill. I’m pretty sure they’re right about that. So people who worry about efficiency will feel that they have no choice but to play a warrior.

It’s a fair enough complaint, actually, without all the hyperbole surrounding it, with the sky is falling business.

Stuff will get fixed, eventually, I’m pretty sure warriors will end up getting a nerf and then we all get to enjoy their tears of suffering for a while.

But….they aren’t when I’m there. They do their thing and I do mine. They live because I’m there sometimes (a lot of the time)

It’s really funnny to see what’s posted here these days. Then living it on the field. My Guard is great for damage and AoE, but goes down and needs help. But when I play my Ranger…I’m a catch all. I damage, can release to rez, or whatever. But I live in the end with my Ranger more than the Guard or any Warrior in the mix. Of course this is “only” PvE

I’m really not disagreeing with you. I’m far more agreeing with you, than with them. Still, there’s some work on balance to be done.

I just don’t think the sky is falling.

Even if you are just playing to have fun, the game should still be balanced. It’s no excuse to have things imbalanced because they assume everyone will play casually even though it’s their aim.

ScottBroChill.3254:

Even if you are just playing to have fun, the game should still be balanced. It’s no excuse to have things imbalanced because they assume everyone will play casually even though it’s their aim.

The problem is balance is next to impossible. This game is a lot more balanced than some other games out there. People don’t want to see or believe it, but there have been games famous for imbalance.

Warhammer went through a period of imbalance so severe it was unplayable.

Balance takes time and little changes here and there. You’re only seeing a piece of the puzzle, but you don’t know where it’s going, or what’s planned.

Rift did the whole rebalancing every two minutes after launch and it was a disaster too.

No one says Anet isn’t working on balance, they’re just not working on balance fast enough for people who haven’t really thought about how it works when you change everything really quickly. It doesn’t.

There are many games over the years that have had major imbalances. Not one or two. This is more the rule than the exception but everyone keeps quoting it as the rule.

It will get better. It will take time. At least, as it stands now, it’s playable by most of the playerbase.

WvW’ers love Necros. They are zerg-destroyers.

Vayne.8563:

ScottBroChill.3254:

Even if you are just playing to have fun, the game should still be balanced. It’s no excuse to have things imbalanced because they assume everyone will play casually even though it’s their aim.

The problem is balance is next to impossible. This game is a lot more balanced than some other games out there. People don’t want to see or believe it, but there have been games famous for imbalance.

Warhammer went through a period of imbalance so severe it was unplayable.

Balance takes time and little changes here and there. You’re only seeing a piece of the puzzle, but you don’t know where it’s going, or what’s planned.

Rift did the whole rebalancing every two minutes after launch and it was a disaster too.

No one says Anet isn’t working on balance, they’re just not working on balance fast enough for people who haven’t really thought about how it works when you change everything really quickly. It doesn’t.

There are many games over the years that have had major imbalances. Not one or two. This is more the rule than the exception but everyone keeps quoting it as the rule.

It will get better. It will take time. At least, as it stands now, it’s playable by most of the playerbase.

The balance I can agree is decent. The reason it is such a problem though is that every class fills the same roles since there are no roles. So there’s a pecking order from strongest to weakest without having to need something specific because everyone has it. And the ones who don’t have what is most sought after are neglected. Mesmers aren’t necessarily good at pve, they just lucked out with portal and utility skills but other than that they are a more pvp oriented class. You’ll always end up with the top two/three most efficient classes getting first dibs in parties while the rest of the classes get left behind. The way the classes work I think this is unavoidable.

ScottBroChill.3254:

Vayne.8563:

ScottBroChill.3254:

Even if you are just playing to have fun, the game should still be balanced. It’s no excuse to have things imbalanced because they assume everyone will play casually even though it’s their aim.

The problem is balance is next to impossible. This game is a lot more balanced than some other games out there. People don’t want to see or believe it, but there have been games famous for imbalance.

Warhammer went through a period of imbalance so severe it was unplayable.

Balance takes time and little changes here and there. You’re only seeing a piece of the puzzle, but you don’t know where it’s going, or what’s planned.

Rift did the whole rebalancing every two minutes after launch and it was a disaster too.

No one says Anet isn’t working on balance, they’re just not working on balance fast enough for people who haven’t really thought about how it works when you change everything really quickly. It doesn’t.

There are many games over the years that have had major imbalances. Not one or two. This is more the rule than the exception but everyone keeps quoting it as the rule.

It will get better. It will take time. At least, as it stands now, it’s playable by most of the playerbase.

The balance I can agree is decent. The reason it is such a problem though is that every class fills the same roles since there are no roles. So there’s a pecking order from strongest to weakest without having to need something specific because everyone has it. And the ones who don’t have what is most sought after are neglected. Mesmers aren’t necessarily good at pve, they just lucked out with portal and utility skills but other than that they are a more pvp oriented class. You’ll always end up with the top two/three most efficient classes getting first dibs in parties while the rest of the classes get left behind. The way the classes work I think this is unavoidable.

But that’s not really different from most other games. Every game has things that decide what you do. In Guild Wars 1, if you didn’t have the build of the month, you didn’t get a group with “certain” people, for the Underworld. They were asking for very specific builds. You either had those builds, or you didn’t run with those groups. Voltaic spear farming…the same. They wanted very specific professions with very specific builds.

In WoW, it’s gear score. And remember in WoW, you NEED a healer and you NEED a tank, so you know, that’s another thing to think about. Every game is the same in this particular circumstance.

Guild Wars 2 is in fact better than most games because such a small percentage of people require certain builds or even certain professions. As other have said right here on the forum they’re necros or rangers or engies and haven’t had trouble finding groups.

Again, this is a problem of perception. This game doesn’t really encourage elitism like other games do. You’ll get some speed runners who required specific professions and builds…are you telling me that didn’t happen in Guild Wars 1? Are you telling me that doesn’t happen in every other MMO out there?

Seriously, this whole, OMG a few people are elitists and will insist on certain professions is so not the end of the world. It’s not even the end of the game. All it is is human nature at work. 3

Dude, the difference is, is when there is roles your competing with only one or two other classes. Without roles it’s all eight classes in competition. With builds it’s different because you can still access the good builds if needed within your class in other games, but in this game it’s more about the class and less about the build.

Kichwas.7152:

Teracide.5137:

Some classes seem to be almost a “must have” (Warrior, Mesmer), while others seem to be considered useless (Ranger, Necro). Has ANet even considered buffs to the “lesser” classes?

I think you’re premise is incorrect. People might think this is the case, but it doesn’t seem to play out.

In PvE, they really do balance well.

if you think that necromancer balances out well, have you ever played one?
No matter your specs your damage will still be bad. So viable builds remaining – support healer, tank, condition and anything in between.
I wanted to still do some damage so I went for condition, while still leaving some toughness for myself for survival. My damage is lower than of any other condition based class. My necromancer is the only character that I bothered going up to fractals level 20 with. Every time I join a group I feel embarrassed, because my only real good points is that I have a revive signet and can take more hits than other people. I’m a reviver with a bit of damage.

ScottBroChill.3254:

Dude, the difference is, is when there is roles your competing with only one or two other classes. Without roles it’s all eight classes in competition. With builds it’s different because you can still access the good builds if needed within your class in other games, but in this game it’s more about the class and less about the build.

But people are saying they play the other professions and they don’t have trouble finding groups. Sure certain guys are preferred by a small percentage of the player base. Still not much different than most other games.

As for professions, there are plenty of groups rangers didn’t get into in Guild Wars 1 for the Underworld, until there was a build of the month with one skill the rangers had that they needed.

This isn’t new or particularly worrying. It can and will be better. But you know, most of the guys who require those professions, I wouldn’t choose to play with anyway.

Everyone’s a generic DPS in GW2, the most useful professions are those that deal the most DPS.

Vayne.8563:

I simply say not everyone plays games the same way and efficiency, rated very high by some, isn’t rated as highly by others. As long as I can get the job done, I’m quite happy and so are a whole lot of other people.

Do you really think the vast majority of players are min/maxers or they’re worried about killing something 10% slower? I don’t.

Sure there are balance issues. I never said they weren’t. But they’re only the sky is falling type of balance issues for a certain type of player and those type of players, in my opinion, do not hold a majority.

Way to fill up the thread with multiple posts saying the same thing, all of which can be summed as:

1. Me and other people I know like it.
2. If you disagree, you are probably in the minority.

I asked for a certain kind of evidence to demonstrate that everything is as fine as you say it is (class analysis with skills, numbers, etc., the kinds of information that’s useful in this situation). You just repeat your anecdotal evidence and add more anecdotal evidence to suggest, without any statistical facts or figures, that people who disagree with you are in the minority.

How is this rational or helpful? All you’re saying is that people who don’t share your preferences should just sit down and or go away. Well, thanks for nothing. Why would you think your personal stories carried so much weight as to be able mollify everyone on the other side of this issue?

Some consistency is also in order: by your standards, you shouldn’t care that we’re raising this issue. If the majority don’t care about min/maxing, then the majority shouldn’t care if we ask the developers to fix our issues, since it won’t negatively affect the majority anyway.

Isnt that always the case? GW1 had the strong and weak classes, rangers almost always left out in groups. Necros the jack of all trades but master of none.
The balance in damage or usefullnes might be just seen on one screen, not everyone is fixed at damage numbers :/

Ask a developer why the Warrior deals so much damage compared to other classes and see what kind of answer you’ll get; if you’ll get one at all.

The Mesmer portal is an interesting problem because it’s either you completely remove it or you provide it to other classes.

Guns and Giblets.9308:

Vayne.8563:

I simply say not everyone plays games the same way and efficiency, rated very high by some, isn’t rated as highly by others. As long as I can get the job done, I’m quite happy and so are a whole lot of other people.

Do you really think the vast majority of players are min/maxers or they’re worried about killing something 10% slower? I don’t.

Sure there are balance issues. I never said they weren’t. But they’re only the sky is falling type of balance issues for a certain type of player and those type of players, in my opinion, do not hold a majority.

Way to fill up the thread with multiple posts saying the same thing, all of which can be summed as:

1. Me and other people I know like it.
2. If you disagree, you are probably in the minority.

I asked for a certain kind of evidence to demonstrate that everything is as fine as you say it is (class analysis with skills, numbers, etc., the kinds of information that’s useful in this situation). You just repeat your anecdotal evidence and add more anecdotal evidence to suggest, without any statistical facts or figures, that people who disagree with you are in the minority.

How is this rational or helpful? All you’re saying is that people who don’t share your preferences should just sit down and or go away. Well, thanks for nothing. Why would you think your personal stories carried so much weight as to be able mollify everyone on the other side of this issue?

Some consistency is also in order: by your standards, you shouldn’t care that we’re raising this issue. If the majority don’t care about min/maxing, then the majority shouldn’t care if we ask the developers to fix our issues, since it won’t negatively affect the majority anyway.

I repeat what I say, because people repeat what they say.

As for statistical analysis, there have been tons of things written about the dominance of the casual player in the genre over the hard core. When you look at the highest level raids in a game like WoW, most of the gaming population never even sees them. Furthermore, there’s a big of common sense involved in thinking that most people who play games play them casually and that’s any game. There are more pro baseball players than amateur ones. Pretty simple really.

People who really get into the number crunching aren’t a minority because I say so. They’re a minority because most people don’t like math that much. Do you really need a poll to know this.

Devs from companies have gone on the record talking about casual players and also solo players. Games thrive on them. If you don’t want to believe it, that’s your own lookout.

So people keep saying, OMG this game is so imbalanced, it’s the worst thing ever. I point out that I’ve seen this on every MMORPG forum I’ve ever logged into. Every single one. While my word on this is annecdotal, it’s easy enough to research for yourself.

So if every single forum for every single MMORPG has had people saying this is the most unbalanced game ever, or no MMO is as badly balanced as this one, they can’t all be right, can they?

I’m not saying there’s not work to do. I’m saying the sky is falling reaction to the work that is going on and will continue to go on changes neither the work nor the state of the game as it stands now.

You have a problem, apparently a serious problem with the game balance. Most people that play this game are still trying to figure out what a condition is. What a boon is. Where to find stuff in LA.

This is also true on most MMOs. You don’t need to be a brain surgeon to know that the average intelligence of gamers isn’t a zillion. The guys who min/max and crunch numbers and really get into that stuff are a very small percentage of the population because intelligent people are a very small percentage.

Yes, it’s a big deal to you, I get it. But that doesn’t make it a big deal.

In this game where any PvE content can be done by any group without regard to team composition (except maybe high level fractals), there will always be a handful of top tier classes because balance can’t be 100% perfect. So in a few patches later the CoF groups may just look for 4 ranger 1 engineer (although…there would have to be some pretty severe changes). Elitists will always gravitate to the current popular class.

With that being said I think there is still a lot of balancing to be done in both PvP and PvE. Some of the more glaring issues in PvE are:

1) Warriors do too much damage while being pretty tanky (compared to everyone else, anyway) even in full berserker gear. Everyone knows this.
2) The projectile-reflection capabilities (and general usefulness) of the guardian and mesmer are unparalleled.
3) There is rarely any need for anything except “Tons of Damage” (and projectile reflection which makes certain encounters so much easier).
4) Did I mention that warriors do a lot of damage?

Vayne.8563:

Guns and Giblets.9308:

Vayne.8563:

I simply say not everyone plays games the same way and efficiency, rated very high by some, isn’t rated as highly by others. As long as I can get the job done, I’m quite happy and so are a whole lot of other people.

Do you really think the vast majority of players are min/maxers or they’re worried about killing something 10% slower? I don’t.

Sure there are balance issues. I never said they weren’t. But they’re only the sky is falling type of balance issues for a certain type of player and those type of players, in my opinion, do not hold a majority.

Way to fill up the thread with multiple posts saying the same thing, all of which can be summed as:

1. Me and other people I know like it.
2. If you disagree, you are probably in the minority.

I asked for a certain kind of evidence to demonstrate that everything is as fine as you say it is (class analysis with skills, numbers, etc., the kinds of information that’s useful in this situation). You just repeat your anecdotal evidence and add more anecdotal evidence to suggest, without any statistical facts or figures, that people who disagree with you are in the minority.

How is this rational or helpful? All you’re saying is that people who don’t share your preferences should just sit down and or go away. Well, thanks for nothing. Why would you think your personal stories carried so much weight as to be able mollify everyone on the other side of this issue?

Some consistency is also in order: by your standards, you shouldn’t care that we’re raising this issue. If the majority don’t care about min/maxing, then the majority shouldn’t care if we ask the developers to fix our issues, since it won’t negatively affect the majority anyway.

I repeat what I say, because people repeat what they say.

As for statistical analysis, there have been tons of things written about the dominance of the casual player in the genre over the hard core. When you look at the highest level raids in a game like WoW, most of the gaming population never even sees them. Furthermore, there’s a big of common sense involved in thinking that most people who play games play them casually and that’s any game. There are more pro baseball players than amateur ones. Pretty simple really.

People who really get into the number crunching aren’t a minority because I say so. They’re a minority because most people don’t like math that much. Do you really need a poll to know this.

Devs from companies have gone on the record talking about casual players and also solo players. Games thrive on them. If you don’t want to believe it, that’s your own lookout.

So people keep saying, OMG this game is so imbalanced, it’s the worst thing ever. I point out that I’ve seen this on every MMORPG forum I’ve ever logged into. Every single one. While my word on this is annecdotal, it’s easy enough to research for yourself.

So if every single forum for every single MMORPG has had people saying this is the most unbalanced game ever, or no MMO is as badly balanced as this one, they can’t all be right, can they?

I’m not saying there’s not work to do. I’m saying the sky is falling reaction to the work that is going on and will continue to go on changes neither the work nor the state of the game as it stands now.

You have a problem, apparently a serious problem with the game balance. Most people that play this game are still trying to figure out what a condition is. What a boon is. Where to find stuff in LA.

This is also true on most MMOs. You don’t need to be a brain surgeon to know that the average intelligence of gamers isn’t a zillion. The guys who min/max and crunch numbers and really get into that stuff are a very small percentage of the population because intelligent people are a very small percentage.

Yes, it’s a big deal to you, I get it. But that doesn’t make it a big deal.

play all classes. When a class deals so little damage it feels broken (Necro) even a casual feels it. Sure we don’t all want to have the damage of a warrior, but kitten when you deal like no damage at all it’s just not that fun.

Mirta.5029:

Vayne.8563:

Guns and Giblets.9308:

Vayne.8563:

I simply say not everyone plays games the same way and efficiency, rated very high by some, isn’t rated as highly by others. As long as I can get the job done, I’m quite happy and so are a whole lot of other people.

Do you really think the vast majority of players are min/maxers or they’re worried about killing something 10% slower? I don’t.

Sure there are balance issues. I never said they weren’t. But they’re only the sky is falling type of balance issues for a certain type of player and those type of players, in my opinion, do not hold a majority.

Way to fill up the thread with multiple posts saying the same thing, all of which can be summed as:

1. Me and other people I know like it.
2. If you disagree, you are probably in the minority.

I asked for a certain kind of evidence to demonstrate that everything is as fine as you say it is (class analysis with skills, numbers, etc., the kinds of information that’s useful in this situation). You just repeat your anecdotal evidence and add more anecdotal evidence to suggest, without any statistical facts or figures, that people who disagree with you are in the minority.

How is this rational or helpful? All you’re saying is that people who don’t share your preferences should just sit down and or go away. Well, thanks for nothing. Why would you think your personal stories carried so much weight as to be able mollify everyone on the other side of this issue?

Some consistency is also in order: by your standards, you shouldn’t care that we’re raising this issue. If the majority don’t care about min/maxing, then the majority shouldn’t care if we ask the developers to fix our issues, since it won’t negatively affect the majority anyway.

I repeat what I say, because people repeat what they say.

As for statistical analysis, there have been tons of things written about the dominance of the casual player in the genre over the hard core. When you look at the highest level raids in a game like WoW, most of the gaming population never even sees them. Furthermore, there’s a big of common sense involved in thinking that most people who play games play them casually and that’s any game. There are more pro baseball players than amateur ones. Pretty simple really.

People who really get into the number crunching aren’t a minority because I say so. They’re a minority because most people don’t like math that much. Do you really need a poll to know this.

Devs from companies have gone on the record talking about casual players and also solo players. Games thrive on them. If you don’t want to believe it, that’s your own lookout.

So people keep saying, OMG this game is so imbalanced, it’s the worst thing ever. I point out that I’ve seen this on every MMORPG forum I’ve ever logged into. Every single one. While my word on this is annecdotal, it’s easy enough to research for yourself.

So if every single forum for every single MMORPG has had people saying this is the most unbalanced game ever, or no MMO is as badly balanced as this one, they can’t all be right, can they?

I’m not saying there’s not work to do. I’m saying the sky is falling reaction to the work that is going on and will continue to go on changes neither the work nor the state of the game as it stands now.

You have a problem, apparently a serious problem with the game balance. Most people that play this game are still trying to figure out what a condition is. What a boon is. Where to find stuff in LA.

This is also true on most MMOs. You don’t need to be a brain surgeon to know that the average intelligence of gamers isn’t a zillion. The guys who min/max and crunch numbers and really get into that stuff are a very small percentage of the population because intelligent people are a very small percentage.

Yes, it’s a big deal to you, I get it. But that doesn’t make it a big deal.

play all classes. When a class deals so little damage it feels broken (Necro) even a casual feels it. Sure we don’t all want to have the damage of a warrior, but kitten when you deal like no damage at all it’s just not that fun.

I play a necro. I have fun playing the necro. We have a couple of guys in my guild who main necros. They love it.

Maybe you’re just too focused on damage.

Vayne.8563:

I play a necro. I have fun playing the necro. We have a couple of guys in my guild who main necros. They love it.

Maybe you’re just too focused on damage.

Ignoring the problem by saying “I love the class” is not the best way of going around it. ALL of my other toons do more in condition damage, do more in regular damage, do more in healing than necros do.

Mirta.5029:

Vayne.8563:

I play a necro. I have fun playing the necro. We have a couple of guys in my guild who main necros. They love it.

Maybe you’re just too focused on damage.

Ignoring the problem by saying “I love the class” is not the best way of going around it. ALL of my other toons do more in condition damage, do more in regular damage, do more in healing than necros do.

Do they all offer as much consistent debuff uptime?

This is what makes Necro somewhat bad in PvE. Nobody really needs Poison/Weakness/Cripple/Chill in PvE, because it’s always better to just do more damage faster.

That’s a PvE design problem, not a Necro problem. The class is built to be awesome at something that isn’t necessary. Debuffs make content safer for the party, not faster. The only way to make trivial content go by faster (aka “farming efficiency”) is to increase damage output. But if the content was so difficult that it expected you to have adequate access to various debuffs, as in if mobs healed/dodged a lot more, then classes like Necro would be “must-haves.” But it isn’t, so they’re not.