Guild Wars 2

^ yes, i am casual.

yes, i seldom change the traits.

you forgot that guild wars 2 is aimed at the casual group.

no, icons is easier to recognize. my argument is not trash.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

^ yes, i am casual.

yes, i seldom change the traits.

you forgot that guild wars 2 is aimed at the casual group.

no, icons is easier to recognize. my argument is not trash.

If you seldom change traits then it is your own fault.

Would you prefer someone to upload knowledge because you can’t be bothered to learn? Do you accept welfare also?

And yes, your argument is trash, because I just reasonably demonstrated that certain individuals can process the numerals the exact same as an icon. And the purpose of my argument was to show you that just because you say icons are the best does not make it so. Otherwise I would logically be petitioning with you for trait icons instead of already having memorized numerals.

Young Somalia.1706:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

^ yes, i am casual.

yes, i seldom change the traits.

you forgot that guild wars 2 is aimed at the casual group.

no, icons is easier to recognize. my argument is not trash.

If you seldom change traits then it is your own fault.

Would you prefer someone to upload knowledge because you can’t be bothered to learn? Do you accept welfare also?

And yes, your argument is trash, because I just reasonably demonstrated that certain individuals can process the numerals the exact same as an icon. And the purpose of my argument was to show you that just because you say icons are the best does not make it so. Otherwise I would logically be petitioning with you for trait icons instead of already having memorized numerals.

Like I mentioned, not everyone is wired the same. I know a lot of people who would prefer to have icons. The best would be to be able to select which one to display.

Yes it would, you are correct.

Just don’t jump to the conclusion that I was suggesting he is wrong and I am right; my argument was that he is wrong, because I am an exception to his rhetoric (“Icons are easier to remember, FACT”), which removes the only premise his argument for icons was hinging on.

It really is that simple.

for roman numerals, you need to put in effort to remember them.
forcefully.

with icons, there is no need for extra effort to remember them.
it comes naturally.

try imagining our faces are made up of numbers instead.

you lot are saying roman numerals is better because you lot forced yourselves to remember them.

also, unique icons looks much better than generic roman numerals.

I didn’t force myself to remember anything. I learned it through repetition and practice, switching my traits fight to fight (as you apparently refuse to do), something that icons would have done little to benefit me for. Or did you think I sat, studying my trait window for consecutive hours, testing my memory until I was complete?

Stop projecting, dude.

Oh, and I didn’t say numerals were better, I just argued that your statement which allowed for no deviance one way or another was wrong, that it was the wrong way to approach an argument, and that it was a flimsy argument to make (seeing as it takes only one defector to break the rhetoric of it). So when you’re done projecting, you can also stop putting words in people’s mouths.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

for roman numerals, you need to put in effort to remember them.
forcefully.

with icons, there is no need for extra effort to remember them.
it comes naturally.

try imagining our faces are made up of numbers instead.

you lot are saying roman numerals is better because you lot forced yourselves to remember them.

also, unique icons looks much better than generic roman numerals.

It’s not that simple at all… we’re not talking about single images but about ordered strings of variables.
And the looking better part is extremely subjective.

okay, lets try something else.

what if, one day,
the roman numerals traits were silently replaced with icons.

because, you know, it has been more than a year,
the traits icon artist has been silently working way in the dark, on 480 traits icon,
and it is time to replace the placeholder roman numerals with proper traits icon.

so, on one living story patch day, the generic roman numerals were replaced.
there was no announcement at all.
because, its about time those generic roman numerals were replaced with proper icons.

would everyone rage?
because the generic roman numerals were replaced?
or would everyone embrace the long over due traits icons?

Since I’m not presumptuous, I will not stand to assume things for an entire population of gamers, but I will speak for myself.

It wouldn’t even make a difference because I already remember the positions of the traits that I’m switching to for quick clicking. But icons wouldn’t teach you muscle memory, so it will still boil down to you needing to commit to learning your traits by actively exercising them instead of finding excuses not to.

^ well, nowadays i only switch around 2 builds for my warrior.

in PvE i go with banners
in WvW i go with shouts

that’s about it.

the difference that it would make is, it would make everything look better.

let’s look at the current situation we have.

skills are unique icons, weapons, healing, utility, racial, elite
can be shift clicked to link in the chat box

but, traits are generic roman numerals,
cannot be shift clicked to link in the chat box.

there is inconsistency here.

if the traits are replaced with icons and can be shift clicked to link in the chat box then it will become consistent.

Imagining how colorful skill icons are, and applying it to the trait window with a beige backdrop, would look pretty ugly in my opinion.

I’m of the flavor of conciseness in a stat tree, be it numeric respresentation as we have now or in GW1, or monochromatic stencils/silhouettes like Diablo 2 or something (despite those same poor icons being used for the actual skill when you use it), and somewhat detailed images on a skill bar.

But even skill icons irritate me some times; many of them reflect nothing of the skill function and some may even be perplexing.

In GW1, Contemplation of Purity was a baby face, in this one, it’s some dead looking fool with a glowing shield. I don’t find the either particularly representative of the skill effects.

Wall of Reflection has a great icon though

you keep using the words “generic” and “placeholder” that is kind of hilarious because Roman Numerals are a thing and they serve their own purpose.

Have you actually stopped and considered that Anet chose them as a deliberate design for ease of use and communication?

no matter how loudly you repeat yourself- you are only speaking for yourself
give it up already

@Morrigan

fact is fact.

roman numerals = generic
icons = unique

no. ever since my first play in beta weekend, i see them as placeholders.

back then, there are no detailed description for traits too.
after a year, we have detailed descriptions for traits.

the alone proves that the placeholders roman numerals traits will be replaced with proper icons.

just you wait and see.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

@Morrigan

fact is fact.

roman numerals = generic
icons = unique

no. ever since my first play in beta weekend, i see them as placeholders.

back then, there are no detailed description for traits too.
after a year, we have detailed descriptions for traits.

the alone proves that the placeholders roman numerals traits will be replaced with proper icons.

just you wait and see.

You keep using the word fact again, when it is entirely your opinion.
I am not sure at this point you know the difference between the words generic and unique either.

Roman Numerals have been around for several thousand years.
I learnt how to read them in Kindergarten and my kid is learning it now, right along with arabic mumbers
Do you have a watch? let me guess it is digital

You realize icons are a modern thing- mostly implemented because people are illiterate and want to press pretty/ big pictures right?
As an example look at any till at a fast food restaurant or windows 8 for that matter.

here take a look.

the icon tells me its “Death from Above” right away.

the roman numeral “I” just tells me “I” and that’s it.

icons are better.
fact.

ok now I am convinced you are just trolling.
I am out of here- enjoy the rest of your discussion.

Icons represent more overhead. There are a bunch of traits released at launch that are simply gone. Others are merged. All of those would represent work for the art department that’s now wasted or discarded.

If this were a console game that patched maybe once in its entire service life and evoked fairly limited discussion between players, I’d be with you. But its not.

Fact – icons would be be more expensive.
Fact – in a changing game environment they’d fall out of currency
Fact – they are harder to use in discussion between players
Fact – its additional effort that is only of interest or value to a subset of the player base
Fact – the people whose livelyhoods depend on on the outcome have decided its not a worthwhile expenditure of their time.

Nike.2631:

Icons represent more overhead. There are a bunch of traits released at launch that are simply gone. Others are merged. All of those would represent work for the art department that’s now wasted or discarded.

If this were a console game that patched maybe once in its entire service life and evoked fairly limited discussion between players, I’d be with you. But its not.

Fact – icons would be be more expensive.
Fact – in a changing game environment they’d fall out of currency
Fact – they are harder to use in discussion between players
Fact – its additional effort that is only of interest or value to a subset of the player base
Fact – the people whose livelyhoods depend on on the outcome have decided its not a worthwhile expenditure of their time.

hmmm okay.

what if there is a option to show them as english words instead of roman numerals.

an option.

i.e. the pop up window shows a list of traits in their english words names.
or whatever language the client is in.

perhaps the roman numerals will finally be replaced with icons once they stop removing and merging traits.

i asked for stats swapping function since 2006 and this function appeared in 2013.
i can wait.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

hmmm okay.

what if there is a option to show them as english words instead of roman numerals.

an option.

i.e. the pop up window shows a list of traits in their english words names.
or whatever language the client is in.

perhaps the roman numerals will finally be replaced with icons once they stop removing and merging traits.

i asked for stats swapping function since 2006 and this function appeared in 2013.
i can wait.

You seem to got this thing stuck in your head that they intend to change the Roman numerals to icons.

Removing, merging and changing traits will never stop happening as long as they keep adding traits, skills, weapons ect. Balance isn’t something that just stops (unless the game is shutting down / going into maintenance mode).

Also, unless they totally revamp the UI, the writing would be incredibly small, considering some of the trait names (eg, Inspiring Battle Standard, Thrill of the Kill, Destruction of the Empowered). Then you got the fact that Minor Trait icons are smaller (although they necessarily don’t need changing, but then you’re breaking the consistency of the UI).

TheDaiBish.9735:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

hmmm okay.

what if there is a option to show them as english words instead of roman numerals.

an option.

i.e. the pop up window shows a list of traits in their english words names.
or whatever language the client is in.

perhaps the roman numerals will finally be replaced with icons once they stop removing and merging traits.

i asked for stats swapping function since 2006 and this function appeared in 2013.
i can wait.

You seem to got this thing stuck in your head that they intend to change the Roman numerals to icons.

Removing, merging and changing traits will never stop happening as long as they keep adding traits, skills, weapons ect. Balance isn’t something that just stops (unless the game is shutting down / going into maintenance mode).

Also, unless they totally revamp the UI, the writing would be incredibly small, considering some of the trait names (eg, Inspiring Battle Standard, Thrill of the Kill, Destruction of the Empowered). Then you got the fact that Minor Trait icons are smaller (although they necessarily don’t need changing, but then you’re breaking the consistency of the UI).

yes, that’s stuck in my head since the first beta weekend.
i have been putting up with this for more than a year.
that does not stop me from playing guild wars 2 though.

well, it is not too hard to revamp the UI.
i think. i dunno really. i am not a programmer.

just make the pop up window much larger.
refer to attached image for example.

there we go.
now i’m asking for words, alongside the roman numerals.
not asking for too much now yes?

What a ridiculous thing to complain about. Of all the flaws that need fixing this doesn’t even make the top 200 and it’s debatable if it needs changing at all.

I prefer numerals over some silly icons. Much easier to remember and if you know your professions, you’ve memorized the most used trait numerals anyways.

leng jai.2961:

What a ridiculous thing to complain about. Of all the flaws that need fixing this doesn’t even make the top 200 and it’s debatable if it needs changing at all.

it is not ridiculous but perfectly reasonable.

roman numerals are generic and tells nothing about the trait unless mouse over.

the least they can do is enlarge the traits selection pop up window and put the name of the trait beside the roman numerals.

as an option. for those who prefer so.

it would make traits changing so much better.

The thing with the names beside the numbers is something we could talk about, but not hundreds of fancy colorful pictures destroying a very well designed UI.

But there are other things that need polish and love first

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

leng jai.2961:

What a ridiculous thing to complain about. Of all the flaws that need fixing this doesn’t even make the top 200 and it’s debatable if it needs changing at all.

it is not ridiculous but perfectly reasonable.

roman numerals are generic and tells nothing about the trait unless mouse over.

the least they can do is enlarge the traits selection pop up window and put the name of the trait beside the roman numerals.

as an option. for those who prefer so.

it would make traits changing so much better.

But you already admitted yourself you rarely change traits.

Not only that, but those people who do change traits regularly have no need for such a system, because they’ll know which traits they want anyway. And if they don’t, they can just mouse over. Which would be exactly the same case with icons. Those that change regularly will memorize the icons and those that don’t will always have to mouse over them.

But good luck chasing windmills though, I’m actually quite enjoying this thread.

Numbers are fine, it makes our life easier while playing with builds and builds are what traits are for.

If you put icon to skills AND icons to traits it will soon be a mess if new skills AND new traits are implemented. Icons on one place and numbers on the other its easier than icons everywhere.

Don’t compare with GW1. I love its icons on skills and all but if you remember, attributes were numeric as well and there were no traits.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

here take a look.

the icon tells me its “Death from Above” right away.

the roman numeral “I” just tells me “I” and that’s it.

icons are better.
fact.

Death from above? I thought that might have been your idea for the trait that mitigated falling damage. It wasn’t any more clear to me than a numeral is for you.

Edit: Didn’t know ‘Death from Above’ was the wars falling skill. Don’t play a war, so see, not anymore helpful to just have the name either really.

As a casual players myself (that rarely retraits), I don’t have too much of an issue remember which traits I use by their numerals. Icons wouldn’t necessarily make it any easier.

Also, Anet uses the skill/trait textual names to be clear in their patch notes. Skills have icons, but they don’t use those either. They always use text, its just easier.

Edit: I know I did this once before…. So I’ll do it again. lol. So, didn’t realize ‘Death from Above’ is the war falling dmg skill. So obviously just using the names instead isn’t very helpful either.

whyme.3281:

The thing with the names beside the numbers is something we could talk about, but not hundreds of fancy colorful pictures destroying a very well designed UI.

But there are other things that need polish and love first

Agreed. I wouldn’t mind the names w/ the icons. They might have to do some work with the UI, and then add some additional coding to facilitate displaying the name. Depending on how the code is done currently, it could be a lot of work, it could be a little bit, there are a lot of unknowns here.

We’re fighting with something similar where I work. You’d think the front end change would be minor, and even the ui dev says it should be, but because of coding restrictions and how things have to be structured to meet our client’s standards, let’s just say its not.

Fact: It’s easier to share a build by saying “I, IV and XI”.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

for roman numerals, you need to put in effort to remember them.
forcefully.

with icons, there is no need for extra effort to remember them.
it comes naturally.

This statement… lol… numerals already ARE icons.

DDRitter.1872:

Fact: It’s easier to share a build by saying “I, IV and XI”.

those does not tell me anything. just numbers.

Player Character.9467:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

for roman numerals, you need to put in effort to remember them.
forcefully.

with icons, there is no need for extra effort to remember them.
it comes naturally.

This statement… lol… numerals already ARE icons.

incorrect. roman numerals are numbers not icons.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

incorrect. roman numerals are numbers not icons.

Technically, because of the way they are done, they do qualify as ‘icons’

icon noun \??-?kän\
computers : a small picture on a computer screen that represents a program or function

It does not say that the icon has to be an image or that it has to match what it’s representing. only that it is a small graphic used to represent it. Their icons are hexagonal shields with a numeral, very simple. There is nothing that says they have to use an actual image.

Budget

15char

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Player Character.9467:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

for roman numerals, you need to put in effort to remember them.
forcefully.

with icons, there is no need for extra effort to remember them.
it comes naturally.

This statement… lol… numerals already ARE icons.

incorrect. roman numerals are numbers not icons.

They’re still a set of pixels in a given orientation.

I think I agree with myself that roman numerals have certain advantages that icons do not have. One of me says that icons, especially given a theme, be it racial or profession specific would be great and YES rangers should absolutely have a unicorn theme unless they are norn then they get a rune theme.

I started arguing with myself about the latest edition of having the trait name shown next to the roman numeral as above – I said to myself, if I don’t know what it is I still have to hover over it, no I might as well learn a string of numbers (at which point I pointed out to myself that I am too lazy for that, point taken).

All in all this debate could be easily avoided by letting us save our layouts and switch them out of combat. Less looking, more doing

Redenaz.8631:

How about just numbers rather than Roman numerals? No one writes their build in Roman numerals, and it’s easier to process “7” than “VII” .
.

In my head it was it’s easier to process seven than seven … see what i did there.

I’m roman number illiterate.

quaniesan.8497:

I’m roman number illiterate.

You’re probably joking, but I feel like writing this out anyway because a few people seem to have said the same thing.

I = 1
V = 5
X = 10
I before V or X = subrtract
I after V or X = add

I – 1
II – 2
III – 3
IV – 4
V – 5
VI – 6
VII – 7
VIII – 8
IX – 9
X – 10
XI – 11
XII – 12

You’re welcome.

Most people find this a more interesting way to write numbers. Its not supposed to be hard, just… Fancier?

Anthony.7219:

quaniesan.8497:

I’m roman number illiterate.

You’re probably joking, but I feel like writing this out anyway because a few people seem to have said the same thing.

I = 1
V = 5
X = 10
I before V or X = subrtract
I after V or X = add

I – 1
II – 2
III – 3
IV – 4
V – 5
VI – 6
VII – 7
VIII – 8
IX – 9
X – 10
XI – 11
XII – 12

You’re welcome.

Most people find this a more interesting way to write numbers. Its not supposed to be hard, just… Fancier?

I hope he’s joking, because if he’s not then my 12 yr old son is well ahead of him. He can read and write roman numerals without issue (comes in handy for making outlines for essays and taking notes)

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

TheDaiBish.9735:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

hmmm okay.

what if there is a option to show them as english words instead of roman numerals.

an option.

i.e. the pop up window shows a list of traits in their english words names.
or whatever language the client is in.

perhaps the roman numerals will finally be replaced with icons once they stop removing and merging traits.

i asked for stats swapping function since 2006 and this function appeared in 2013.
i can wait.

You seem to got this thing stuck in your head that they intend to change the Roman numerals to icons.

Removing, merging and changing traits will never stop happening as long as they keep adding traits, skills, weapons ect. Balance isn’t something that just stops (unless the game is shutting down / going into maintenance mode).

Also, unless they totally revamp the UI, the writing would be incredibly small, considering some of the trait names (eg, Inspiring Battle Standard, Thrill of the Kill, Destruction of the Empowered). Then you got the fact that Minor Trait icons are smaller (although they necessarily don’t need changing, but then you’re breaking the consistency of the UI).

yes, that’s stuck in my head since the first beta weekend.
i have been putting up with this for more than a year.
that does not stop me from playing guild wars 2 though.

well, it is not too hard to revamp the UI.
i think. i dunno really. i am not a programmer.

just make the pop up window much larger.
refer to attached image for example.

there we go.
now i’m asking for words, alongside the roman numerals.
not asking for too much now yes?

Missed this post the first time through. I would think that a nice popup like that would also provide a talented artist the space to put in some nice background art behind the wording if they did it right. Just don’t take away my roman numbers.

I have no problem remembering the trait number mappings, and I think the Roman numerals look fine aesthetically.

I don’t see an issue here.

@LanfearShadowflame
ok i changed the title from “icons” into “images” since i originally want images.

@Stormcrow
ok.jpg

@Player Character
but i want images! then i understand there are issues so images will be hard.
now i want names besides the roman numerals.
and a enlarged pop up traits selection window to fit the names.

@Rouven
yes! if they let us to save builds then i think i will be complaining less.

@Teckos
you turned both the Arabic numeral and Roman numeral into English words!

@quaniesan
O_O

@Anthony
yup, roman numerals are indeed fancier than Arabic numbers.

for myself, i can read the roman numerals just fine. if i put in the effort, i can remember the roman numerals (as well as location) for the traits i wanna swap to often too.

@LanfearShadowflame
well, even if he is not joking, everyone is unique in a way.

@Anthony
ooooo. do u mean?
1. enlarge the traits selection pop up window
2. roman numerals in front, bold and large.
3. background art of trait in the back, faded out
4. roman numeral still very obvious and visible
5. nice roman numeral + faded background art of trait

well, a few people have stated budget / manpower issues but i like to dream about such things anyway. always have something to look forward to in guild wars 2!

@voidwater
well, its very subjective anyway. since it has been over a year, a lot of people have come to accept the roman numerals. for me, i process images better than roman numerals.

Plain and simple, OP your making completely inaccurate assumptions by assuming every person will interpret the meaning of the icons in the same way. Numurals leave no room for a need of interpretation.

coglin.1867:

Plain and simple, OP your making completely inaccurate assumptions by assuming every person will interpret the meaning of the icons in the same way. Numurals leave no room for a need of interpretation.

well, i am speaking for myself. perhaps i did not make that clear in the first post.

“Numurals leave no room for a need of interpretation.”
sorry but what do u mean by this? O_O

I don’t mind that they are with Roman numerals.I never remember names.So to me doesn’t matter what kind of icon will be.Will it be a number or something else.
I remember the text and the icon but never the name

Roman numerals are fine. Makes it easy to communicate traits choices to other people, rather than have to put up the name or describe the icon to someone.
A sensible ‘polish’ for these would be to stylize the Roman numeral smaller and put it in the top center of the trait button. An icon or picture could be below that and filling the rest of the button. It still looks fancy, but also has the convenience of the numerals.
I

leng jai.2961:

What a ridiculous thing to complain about. Of all the flaws that need fixing this doesn’t even make the top 200 and it’s debatable if it needs changing at all.

UI people are a totally different group of people from bug fixing, or class design etc.

I have no idea why this horrible number system is in the game. it really does make no sense.

traits should also be color coded for t1, 2 and 3.

I have never in the history of this game, seen anyone actually refer to a trait as its number. That is completely backwards.

Casia.4281:

leng jai.2961:

What a ridiculous thing to complain about. Of all the flaws that need fixing this doesn’t even make the top 200 and it’s debatable if it needs changing at all.

UI people are a totally different group of people from bug fixing, or class design etc.

I have no idea why this horrible number system is in the game. it really does make no sense.

traits should also be color coded for t1, 2 and 3.

I have never in the history of this game, seen anyone actually refer to a trait as its number. That is completely backwards.

Here’s one that does..

Well, of course, depends on what I’m talking about… if I’m talking about a specific trait, I usually use its name (and usually also say the number), but I find it being numbers instead of pictographic icons inmensely useful when I’m giving someone my full build in chat, or when I’m respeccing to try something and just in case I write my previous build down (a poor man’s template saving).

Just used the numbers yesterday to tell a guild member what build I use/how he should spec. It is much easier to say use Spite V then (for a necro) The one with the skulls. Imagine how many icons with a skull necros would have

As I said before I like the UI the way it is, it is easy to refer to the traits, it is well designed and clean.
the only thing they could add would be trait names.

Casia.4281:

leng jai.2961:

What a ridiculous thing to complain about. Of all the flaws that need fixing this doesn’t even make the top 200 and it’s debatable if it needs changing at all.

UI people are a totally different group of people from bug fixing, or class design etc.

I have no idea why this horrible number system is in the game. it really does make no sense.

traits should also be color coded for t1, 2 and 3.

I have never in the history of this game, seen anyone actually refer to a trait as its number. That is completely backwards.

aaah finally someone who shares similar opinions with me!

thanks!

this is much appreciated!

of course, also thanks everyone else for sharing their opinions in this topic!

Count me in the Roman Numerals crowd.

And about your point asking if we would want all the skills to be numbers, no i wouldn’t icons do look nicer. However as they are in a fixed position i still refer to them as a number not by name, or graphic:

ie: Ice bow use skill 4, or Great-sword use skill 3, or 4 with no target.

I couldn’t even tell you what any of those 3 skills look like, and i can’t even be sure if i remember their names correctly.