Guild Wars 2

dietzero.3514:

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

Ashen.2907:

1) anet is not infallible so a customer questioning actions or decisions that negatively impact the game for them is appropriate.

2) Anet has reversed course on previously made design decisions fairly frequently since launch. In almost every case it has been after customers expressed dissatisfaction with the design decision.

Sure, but you don’t get it … it’s already been questioned, it’s already been answered. Of course they can reverse something but we already know the process here isn’t “If we QQ enough, Anet changes it”. In fact, that’s rarely how Devs work.

there has been numerous occaisions where if the users did not question something, it would never have been fixed.
there are numerous occaisons where something has been improved or changed.

And heres the thing you dont realize, even if devs know or accept that they have a problem, they still have to make the descion on how to fix, and when to fix, and wether the cost makes it worthwhile to fix.

so, yeah they actually need people to QQ so they can not only identify things that arent working for the customers, they also need QQ so they can prioritize what/when to fix things.

QQ is actually not bad at all. Its annoying sure, but its pretty useful. QQ in an iterative system is essential.

But Anet fixed the silk price in the last couple of months already.

No, they really did not.

Silk Scraps went from ~3.5s to ~1.75s between October 7th and January 29th, while the supply went from 250k to 1000k.

Whats your source?

Wanze.8410:

In the end, i agree, that light armor users are a bit shafted by the daily timegate and I dont mind, if they find a way to bring them on par with medium and heavy armor.

But then we have to look at other timegates as well, that are disproportionally distributed.

Why do heavy armor users have to spend 55 laurels and 33g for the recipes in order to get a full ascended weapon set and an engi only has to spend 20 laurels and 12g, an ele only needs 25 laurels and 15g?

35 Laurels is a huge difference and makes the 6 days that a light armor user needs more to craft his damask (which can be circumvented by buying it directly anyways) seem miniscule.

This is definitely a point for Wanze.

It also shows his comprehensive knowledge about the different facets of the economy and currencies. This whole discussion on ascended and I never even thought about the laurels associated with it.

Correct me if I’m wrong but with this new daily system it would take 3-4 weeks to gather those additional laurels for weapons. Since you also need the laurels for the armor recipes that is additional time to what other classes would need for full ascended.

eithinan.9841:

Wanze.8410:

In the end, i agree, that light armor users are a bit shafted by the daily timegate and I dont mind, if they find a way to bring them on par with medium and heavy armor.

But then we have to look at other timegates as well, that are disproportionally distributed.

Why do heavy armor users have to spend 55 laurels and 33g for the recipes in order to get a full ascended weapon set and an engi only has to spend 20 laurels and 12g, an ele only needs 25 laurels and 15g?

35 Laurels is a huge difference and makes the 6 days that a light armor user needs more to craft his damask (which can be circumvented by buying it directly anyways) seem miniscule.

This is definitely a point for Wanze.

It also shows his comprehensive knowledge about the different facets of the economy and currencies. This whole discussion on ascended and I never even thought about the laurels associated with it.

Correct me if I’m wrong but with this new daily system it would take 3-4 weeks to gather those additional laurels for weapons. Since you also need the laurels for the armor recipes that is additional time to what other classes would need for full ascended.

Well, i checked up a little on laurels and you basically get 35 laurels every 4 weeks from daily log in rewards. Then you have the choice of 20 additional laurels for the final reward. You also get a daily laurel from festival dailies, if there are some (none atm).

Plus the Laurels from the Achi chests.

So you can possibly get 83 laurels in 4 weeks during festivals. But thats still more than 10 days for a war/guard compared to an ele or engie.

Any chance someone could also summarize what the thread’s about at this point? It started out as being a whine about the cost of silk, and then mutated into a blob about ascended being necessary (it’s not, outside of easing the grind of AR in fractals and completing the achievement), silk being too high for damask (anyone remember when linen was more costly than silk at one point?), and cloth wearers being “shafted” by the crafting system.

Aidan Savage.2078:

Any chance someone could also summarize what the thread’s about at this point? It started out as being a whine about the cost of silk, and then mutated into a blob about ascended being necessary (it’s not, outside of easing the grind of AR in fractals and completing the achievement), silk being too high for damask (anyone remember when linen was more costly than silk at one point?), and cloth wearers being “shafted” by the crafting system.

Over 10% damage increase is 100% necessary, especially in WVW.

Wanze.8410:

dietzero.3514:

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

Ashen.2907:

1) anet is not infallible so a customer questioning actions or decisions that negatively impact the game for them is appropriate.

2) Anet has reversed course on previously made design decisions fairly frequently since launch. In almost every case it has been after customers expressed dissatisfaction with the design decision.

Sure, but you don’t get it … it’s already been questioned, it’s already been answered. Of course they can reverse something but we already know the process here isn’t “If we QQ enough, Anet changes it”. In fact, that’s rarely how Devs work.

there has been numerous occaisions where if the users did not question something, it would never have been fixed.
there are numerous occaisons where something has been improved or changed.

And heres the thing you dont realize, even if devs know or accept that they have a problem, they still have to make the descion on how to fix, and when to fix, and wether the cost makes it worthwhile to fix.

so, yeah they actually need people to QQ so they can not only identify things that arent working for the customers, they also need QQ so they can prioritize what/when to fix things.

QQ is actually not bad at all. Its annoying sure, but its pretty useful. QQ in an iterative system is essential.

But Anet fixed the silk price in the last couple of months already.

No, they really did not.

Silk Scraps went from ~3.5s to ~1.75s between October 7th and January 29th, while the supply went from 250k to 1000k.

Whats your source?

As you can see from your own source, that was only short-term and the price started to recover already. For it to really be a fix, the solution needs to be more longterm than that.

Dhemize.8649:

I can gather almost 100 bolts for demask every 2-3 days from salvaging items drops and armor bought with dungeon tokens. Earn gold and gain scraps this way instead of “I want it right now” and throwing money at the TP. If people would stop acting rushed the supply would drop the price. The xpac won’t be for some time so really… no rush.

That’s why all the mats are going up. I really hate farming in GW2 for this reason. Need a specific mat? Doesn’t matter what it is, just farm gold.

Wanze.8410:

In the end, i agree, that light armor users are a bit shafted by the daily timegate and I dont mind, if they find a way to bring them on par with medium and heavy armor.

But then we have to look at other timegates as well, that are disproportionally distributed.

Why do heavy armor users have to spend 55 laurels and 33g for the recipes in order to get a full ascended weapon set and an engi only has to spend 20 laurels and 12g, an ele only needs 25 laurels and 15g?

35 Laurels is a huge difference and makes the 6 days that a light armor user needs more to craft his damask (which can be circumvented by buying it directly anyways) seem miniscule.

heavy armor users dont have to spend more
warrior does
thats it.
Guardian has 6 possiible weapons

its looking like revenant will also not have many weapons, considering it cant even weapon swap.

now having more weapons gives you more options, but not more power. While i would prefer more options, over more power, having more options is a feature of warrior, it is basically a master of arms. Now with warrior you are actually talking about real options and trade offs. They can only use 2-4 weapons in combat but they can select from a greater pool. The cost, for the gain of having more options than every one else is having more stuff to buy. Thats actually a real trade off.

ascended doesnt give you more options. you can choose to be weak, or not to be weak.

Now this whole side tangent isnt really relevant, because even if you think weapons are messed up, that doesnt mean damask is in good place.

Aidan Savage.2078:

Any chance someone could also summarize what the thread’s about at this point? It started out as being a whine about the cost of silk, and then mutated into a blob about ascended being necessary (it’s not, outside of easing the grind of AR in fractals and completing the achievement), silk being too high for damask (anyone remember when linen was more costly than silk at one point?), and cloth wearers being “shafted” by the crafting system.

the thread, from its very first post was about the cost of silk in respect to ascended crafting and its imbalance

Shiyo.3578:

Aidan Savage.2078:

Any chance someone could also summarize what the thread’s about at this point? It started out as being a whine about the cost of silk, and then mutated into a blob about ascended being necessary (it’s not, outside of easing the grind of AR in fractals and completing the achievement), silk being too high for damask (anyone remember when linen was more costly than silk at one point?), and cloth wearers being “shafted” by the crafting system.

Over 10% damage increase is 100% necessary, especially in WVW.

Fun fact: skill coefficients means it’s not a 10% damage increase by using ascended armor. A warrior using an ascended greatsword, exotic armor, and ascended trinkets (ascended) has, without runes and sigils in play, +1073 power, +734 precision, +734 ferocity. Add in ascended armor? That goes to +1087 power, +745 precision, +745 ferocity. Basic AA chain damage with exotic armor (~2600 armor target): 573,573,738. Basic AA chain with ascended armor vs same target: 577,577,743.

So… uh… yea, ascended armor being necessary outside of AR resistance in fractals? Total, utter, complete, rank dolyak kitten. Upgrading to an ascended weapon makes a bigger difference than upgrading to ascended armor.

*To make it simpler to read:

• Ascended weapon, trinkets, exotic armor: +1073 power, +734 precision, +734 ferocity, AA chain damage 573/573/738
• Ascended weapon, trinkets, armor: +1087 power, +745 precision, +745 ferocity, AA chain damage 577/577/743

Result? Ascended armor still not necessary. In fact, the difference between exotic armor and ascended armor is roughly +14/11/11, barely over a 1% increase in stats. Meanwhile, exotic to ascended trinkets gives a far bigger boost of around +70/35/35, much closer to a ~7-8% increase (averaged between the 3 stats).

edit: here’s another hilarious fact, it costs 48g to craft zojja’s claymore (a zerker ascended weapon) to gain a bigger damage boost than an entire ascended armor set.

pdavis.8031:

Phys: you’ve made your point very well. Ascended light is more expensive and takes more time, and thus is unfair.

But the question I have is: Why are you so preoccupied with fairness?

Does having the current requirement for ascended light break the game? No.
Does the current requirement preclude anyone from obtaining it? No.
Does it mean certain classes have to work harder than others? Yes.
Do the economic aspects of silk and ascended cause the economy as a whole to not function? No.
Does it separate the player base? No

So why does it matter if the material requirements are higher for light armor then the others? Why does it have to be fair?

It may not be “fair” but as one who is in the process of crafting ascended light, I haven’t found it to be that much of a problem. I can farm more silk than I can the other mats fairly easily and without much effort.

there is no method for obtaining silk that is faster than you can get other mats required for the daily craft.

as for your questions, they are the wrong questions.
your justifaction for a design that is built to make one group work harder than others, is that it doesnt break the economy, it also wouldnt break the economy to fix it. IN fact fixing the problem, in certain ways could lower the requirements to be uniform, and spread the increase in value among all the different materials, which would actually be a superior economic situation.

Shiyo.3578:

Aidan Savage.2078:

Any chance someone could also summarize what the thread’s about at this point? It started out as being a whine about the cost of silk, and then mutated into a blob about ascended being necessary (it’s not, outside of easing the grind of AR in fractals and completing the achievement), silk being too high for damask (anyone remember when linen was more costly than silk at one point?), and cloth wearers being “shafted” by the crafting system.

Over 10% damage increase is 100% necessary, especially in WVW.

The thread is about silk and thus armor only as silk is not used for anything else. Armor does not give ou anywhere near a 10% damage boost.

The following is a better explanation regarding what this thread is about.

phys.7689:

Aidan Savage.2078:

Any chance someone could also summarize what the thread’s about at this point? It started out as being a whine about the cost of silk, and then mutated into a blob about ascended being necessary (it’s not, outside of easing the grind of AR in fractals and completing the achievement), silk being too high for damask (anyone remember when linen was more costly than silk at one point?), and cloth wearers being “shafted” by the crafting system.

the thread, from its very first post was about the cost of silk in respect to ascended crafting and its imbalance

Aidan Savage.2078:

Shiyo.3578:

Aidan Savage.2078:

Any chance someone could also summarize what the thread’s about at this point? It started out as being a whine about the cost of silk, and then mutated into a blob about ascended being necessary (it’s not, outside of easing the grind of AR in fractals and completing the achievement), silk being too high for damask (anyone remember when linen was more costly than silk at one point?), and cloth wearers being “shafted” by the crafting system.

Over 10% damage increase is 100% necessary, especially in WVW.

Fun fact: skill coefficients means it’s not a 10% damage increase by using ascended armor. A warrior using an ascended greatsword, exotic armor, and ascended trinkets (ascended) has, without runes and sigils in play, +1073 power, +734 precision, +734 ferocity. Add in ascended armor? That goes to +1087 power, +745 precision, +745 ferocity. Basic AA chain damage with exotic armor (~2600 armor target): 573,573,738. Basic AA chain with ascended armor vs same target: 577,577,743.

So… uh… yea, ascended armor being necessary outside of AR resistance in fractals? Total, utter, complete, rank dolyak kitten. Upgrading to an ascended weapon makes a bigger difference than upgrading to ascended armor.

*To make it simpler to read:

• Ascended weapon, trinkets, exotic armor: +1073 power, +734 precision, +734 ferocity, AA chain damage 573/573/738
• Ascended weapon, trinkets, armor: +1087 power, +745 precision, +745 ferocity, AA chain damage 577/577/743

Result? Ascended armor still not necessary. In fact, the difference between exotic armor and ascended armor is roughly +14/11/11, barely over a 1% increase in stats. Meanwhile, exotic to ascended trinkets gives a far bigger boost of around +70/35/35, much closer to a ~7-8% increase (averaged between the 3 stats).

edit: here’s another hilarious fact, it costs 48g to craft zojja’s claymore (a zerker ascended weapon) to gain a bigger damage boost than an entire ascended armor set.

This ^^

The gains from Ascended Armor are non-existing. I don’t see in your calculations the Weapon Damage difference between Ascended and Exotic, making Ascended Weapons EVEN more valuable over Ascended Armor.

And that last part about Zojja’s Claymore is the best part. I’d love to see full calculations how much 10 Weapons cost over a full set of Armor.

maddoctor.2738:

Aidan Savage.2078:

Shiyo.3578:

Aidan Savage.2078:

Any chance someone could also summarize what the thread’s about at this point? It started out as being a whine about the cost of silk, and then mutated into a blob about ascended being necessary (it’s not, outside of easing the grind of AR in fractals and completing the achievement), silk being too high for damask (anyone remember when linen was more costly than silk at one point?), and cloth wearers being “shafted” by the crafting system.

Over 10% damage increase is 100% necessary, especially in WVW.

Fun fact: skill coefficients means it’s not a 10% damage increase by using ascended armor. A warrior using an ascended greatsword, exotic armor, and ascended trinkets (ascended) has, without runes and sigils in play, +1073 power, +734 precision, +734 ferocity. Add in ascended armor? That goes to +1087 power, +745 precision, +745 ferocity. Basic AA chain damage with exotic armor (~2600 armor target): 573,573,738. Basic AA chain with ascended armor vs same target: 577,577,743.

So… uh… yea, ascended armor being necessary outside of AR resistance in fractals? Total, utter, complete, rank dolyak kitten. Upgrading to an ascended weapon makes a bigger difference than upgrading to ascended armor.

*To make it simpler to read:

• Ascended weapon, trinkets, exotic armor: +1073 power, +734 precision, +734 ferocity, AA chain damage 573/573/738
• Ascended weapon, trinkets, armor: +1087 power, +745 precision, +745 ferocity, AA chain damage 577/577/743

Result? Ascended armor still not necessary. In fact, the difference between exotic armor and ascended armor is roughly +14/11/11, barely over a 1% increase in stats. Meanwhile, exotic to ascended trinkets gives a far bigger boost of around +70/35/35, much closer to a ~7-8% increase (averaged between the 3 stats).

edit: here’s another hilarious fact, it costs 48g to craft zojja’s claymore (a zerker ascended weapon) to gain a bigger damage boost than an entire ascended armor set.

This ^^

The gains from Ascended Armor are non-existing. I don’t see in your calculations the Weapon Damage difference between Ascended and Exotic, making Ascended Weapons EVEN more valuable over Ascended Armor.

And that last part about Zojja’s Claymore is the best part. I’d love to see full calculations how much 10 Weapons cost over a full set of Armor.

It’s about even cost-wise compared to crafting light ascended.

Aidan Savage.2078:

Shiyo.3578:

Aidan Savage.2078:

Any chance someone could also summarize what the thread’s about at this point? It started out as being a whine about the cost of silk, and then mutated into a blob about ascended being necessary (it’s not, outside of easing the grind of AR in fractals and completing the achievement), silk being too high for damask (anyone remember when linen was more costly than silk at one point?), and cloth wearers being “shafted” by the crafting system.

Over 10% damage increase is 100% necessary, especially in WVW.

Fun fact: skill coefficients means it’s not a 10% damage increase by using ascended armor. A warrior using an ascended greatsword, exotic armor, and ascended trinkets (ascended) has, without runes and sigils in play, +1073 power, +734 precision, +734 ferocity. Add in ascended armor? That goes to +1087 power, +745 precision, +745 ferocity. Basic AA chain damage with exotic armor (~2600 armor target): 573,573,738. Basic AA chain with ascended armor vs same target: 577,577,743.

So… uh… yea, ascended armor being necessary outside of AR resistance in fractals? Total, utter, complete, rank dolyak kitten. Upgrading to an ascended weapon makes a bigger difference than upgrading to ascended armor.

*To make it simpler to read:

• Ascended weapon, trinkets, exotic armor: +1073 power, +734 precision, +734 ferocity, AA chain damage 573/573/738
• Ascended weapon, trinkets, armor: +1087 power, +745 precision, +745 ferocity, AA chain damage 577/577/743

Result? Ascended armor still not necessary. In fact, the difference between exotic armor and ascended armor is roughly +14/11/11, barely over a 1% increase in stats. Meanwhile, exotic to ascended trinkets gives a far bigger boost of around +70/35/35, much closer to a ~7-8% increase (averaged between the 3 stats).

edit: here’s another hilarious fact, it costs 48g to craft zojja’s claymore (a zerker ascended weapon) to gain a bigger damage boost than an entire ascended armor set.

you are ignoring the +30 stats from the +5 power or precision or condition damage / + 5 agony resist omni infusions that can be socketed into the infusion slots in your comparison… or cheap extra + 30 defensive/healing stats (just armor since you are using ascended weapon/trinkets in both categories)

The +30 to a single stat will not significantly alter his results and conclusion.

Ayrilana.1396:

The +30 to a single stat will not significantly alter his results and conclusion.

Sure, but looking at just armor, which this thread is mainly complaining about, it is a 4% boost in power over exotic which is rather significant as he states it as a 1% increase, which it isn’t.

azurrei.5691:

Ayrilana.1396:

The +30 to a single stat will not significantly alter his results and conclusion.

Sure, but looking at just armor, which this thread is mainly complaining about, it is a 4% boost in power over exotic which is rather significant as he states it as a 1% increase, which it isn’t.

Did you run the numbers?

maddoctor.2738:

Aidan Savage.2078:

Shiyo.3578:

Aidan Savage.2078:

Any chance someone could also summarize what the thread’s about at this point? It started out as being a whine about the cost of silk, and then mutated into a blob about ascended being necessary (it’s not, outside of easing the grind of AR in fractals and completing the achievement), silk being too high for damask (anyone remember when linen was more costly than silk at one point?), and cloth wearers being “shafted” by the crafting system.

Over 10% damage increase is 100% necessary, especially in WVW.

Fun fact: skill coefficients means it’s not a 10% damage increase by using ascended armor. A warrior using an ascended greatsword, exotic armor, and ascended trinkets (ascended) has, without runes and sigils in play, +1073 power, +734 precision, +734 ferocity. Add in ascended armor? That goes to +1087 power, +745 precision, +745 ferocity. Basic AA chain damage with exotic armor (~2600 armor target): 573,573,738. Basic AA chain with ascended armor vs same target: 577,577,743.

So… uh… yea, ascended armor being necessary outside of AR resistance in fractals? Total, utter, complete, rank dolyak kitten. Upgrading to an ascended weapon makes a bigger difference than upgrading to ascended armor.

*To make it simpler to read:

• Ascended weapon, trinkets, exotic armor: +1073 power, +734 precision, +734 ferocity, AA chain damage 573/573/738
• Ascended weapon, trinkets, armor: +1087 power, +745 precision, +745 ferocity, AA chain damage 577/577/743

Result? Ascended armor still not necessary. In fact, the difference between exotic armor and ascended armor is roughly +14/11/11, barely over a 1% increase in stats. Meanwhile, exotic to ascended trinkets gives a far bigger boost of around +70/35/35, much closer to a ~7-8% increase (averaged between the 3 stats).

edit: here’s another hilarious fact, it costs 48g to craft zojja’s claymore (a zerker ascended weapon) to gain a bigger damage boost than an entire ascended armor set.

This ^^

The gains from Ascended Armor are non-existing. I don’t see in your calculations the Weapon Damage difference between Ascended and Exotic, making Ascended Weapons EVEN more valuable over Ascended Armor.

And that last part about Zojja’s Claymore is the best part. I’d love to see full calculations how much 10 Weapons cost over a full set of Armor.

you do realize that ascended armor can also give you +30 to any of the main attributes through the infusion slot?
you also realize that not surprisingly one of the main points of armor is increased defense? for a clothy thats going to be about 2.5% less damage taken. Which is pretty signifigant once you start thinking about effective HP.

regardless, quibbling about the gains is actually overall irrelevant.
Whatever those gains are, it takes metal and leather users less effort to get the same gains

the true value of those gains is debateable, but completely irrelevant to the imbalance or the costs of achieving those gains, as long as they are non-zero.

and they are not non zero

What are the defensive increases for ascended armor? It is defensive in nature after all.

For purposes of use in wvw it has the possibility of what +12%? in a given scenario?

*note the 12 is an assumption, identified by the ? mark…I know an outright 5% and am assuming the 7%

need to edit due to phys post above…2.5% hmmm…so 7.5% instead of the 12

Ayrilana.1396:

azurrei.5691:

Ayrilana.1396:

The +30 to a single stat will not significantly alter his results and conclusion.

Sure, but looking at just armor, which this thread is mainly complaining about, it is a 4% boost in power over exotic which is rather significant as he states it as a 1% increase, which it isn’t.

Did you run the numbers?

what numbers? +44 power over exotic is ~4% boost to armor power

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

In the end, i agree, that light armor users are a bit shafted by the daily timegate and I dont mind, if they find a way to bring them on par with medium and heavy armor.

But then we have to look at other timegates as well, that are disproportionally distributed.

Why do heavy armor users have to spend 55 laurels and 33g for the recipes in order to get a full ascended weapon set and an engi only has to spend 20 laurels and 12g, an ele only needs 25 laurels and 15g?

35 Laurels is a huge difference and makes the 6 days that a light armor user needs more to craft his damask (which can be circumvented by buying it directly anyways) seem miniscule.

heavy armor users dont have to spend more
warrior does
thats it.
Guardian has 6 possiible weapons

its looking like revenant will also not have many weapons, considering it cant even weapon swap.

now having more weapons gives you more options, but not more power. While i would prefer more options, over more power, having more options is a feature of warrior, it is basically a master of arms. Now with warrior you are actually talking about real options and trade offs. They can only use 2-4 weapons in combat but they can select from a greater pool. The cost, for the gain of having more options than every one else is having more stuff to buy. Thats actually a real trade off.

ascended doesnt give you more options. you can choose to be weak, or not to be weak.

Now this whole side tangent isnt really relevant, because even if you think weapons are messed up, that doesnt mean damask is in good place.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Weapon#Weapon_usability_by_professions

Guardian also uses 11 different weapons.

My point was anyone arguing that ascended gear “isn’t worth it” is just being lazy or cheap, a stat increase is a stat increase no matter how minor.

Now back to the subject at hand, why does it still take 100 bolts of silk instead of 50 to make damask when silk is no longer worthless?

phys.7689:

my take on it, silk in relationship to damask and ascended is a problem. You will continue to see people complaining about it periodically for this reason. Even amongst those who dont complain, i think a great many view it as suboptimal.

I don’t have as much problem with silk’s relation to damask as silk’s relation to gossamer. Getting the rarer item shouldn’t be the more disappointing outcome.

azurrei.5691:

Ayrilana.1396:

azurrei.5691:

Ayrilana.1396:

The +30 to a single stat will not significantly alter his results and conclusion.

Sure, but looking at just armor, which this thread is mainly complaining about, it is a 4% boost in power over exotic which is rather significant as he states it as a 1% increase, which it isn’t.

Did you run the numbers?

what numbers? +44 power over exotic is ~4% boost to armor power

to clarify for you,
1004 is the total amount of stats available from a major stat for having all exotic equipment
44/1004 = 4.3% more power than a full exotic user
now, if you want to examine only the armor
315 is the total power for armor alone
44/315 =13% more power from armor than a person using exotic armor.

Now, this is really a side issue, it really doesnt matter how much the gains are, for the same gains, people are doing more work.

phys.7689:

azurrei.5691:

Ayrilana.1396:

azurrei.5691:

Ayrilana.1396:

The +30 to a single stat will not significantly alter his results and conclusion.

Sure, but looking at just armor, which this thread is mainly complaining about, it is a 4% boost in power over exotic which is rather significant as he states it as a 1% increase, which it isn’t.

Did you run the numbers?

what numbers? +44 power over exotic is ~4% boost to armor power

to clarify for you,
1004 is the total amount of stats available from a major stat for having all exotic equipment
44/1004 = 4.3% more power than a full exotic user
now, if you want to examine only the armor
315 is the total power for armor alone
44/315 =13% more power from armor than a person using exotic armor.

Now, this is really a side issue, it really doesnt matter how much the gains are, for the same gains, people are doing more work.

hmm yeah, clearly I wasn’t fully awake yet! So, it is even more of a stat bump for power when looking a just armor. That is what happens when you play multiple MMO’s – didn’t even think about that amount of stats being impossible for just armor (in this game,) lol.

I agree. Silk should not be so misrepresented. They should boost the requirements of everything to match silk.

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

In the end, i agree, that light armor users are a bit shafted by the daily timegate and I dont mind, if they find a way to bring them on par with medium and heavy armor.

But then we have to look at other timegates as well, that are disproportionally distributed.

Why do heavy armor users have to spend 55 laurels and 33g for the recipes in order to get a full ascended weapon set and an engi only has to spend 20 laurels and 12g, an ele only needs 25 laurels and 15g?

35 Laurels is a huge difference and makes the 6 days that a light armor user needs more to craft his damask (which can be circumvented by buying it directly anyways) seem miniscule.

heavy armor users dont have to spend more
warrior does
thats it.
Guardian has 6 possiible weapons

its looking like revenant will also not have many weapons, considering it cant even weapon swap.

now having more weapons gives you more options, but not more power. While i would prefer more options, over more power, having more options is a feature of warrior, it is basically a master of arms. Now with warrior you are actually talking about real options and trade offs. They can only use 2-4 weapons in combat but they can select from a greater pool. The cost, for the gain of having more options than every one else is having more stuff to buy. Thats actually a real trade off.

ascended doesnt give you more options. you can choose to be weak, or not to be weak.

Now this whole side tangent isnt really relevant, because even if you think weapons are messed up, that doesnt mean damask is in good place.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Weapon#Weapon_usability_by_professions

Guardian also uses 11 different weapons.

my fault, i was ignoring underwater and missed a few
but by that method of counting
mesmer has 9
necro has 8
theif has 8

if you consider that some classes need to have two of a weapon at once
then mesmer needs 10
guardian needs 11
necro needs 10
warrior needs 14

so there really is still no corelation between number of weapons and armor cost. My assumption is that is because you only can actually use 2-4 weapons in combat, and more weapons actually gives you more options outside of encounters, not more power in an encounter.

Kal Spiro.9745:

I agree. Silk should not be so misrepresented. They should boost the requirements of everything to match silk.

this wouldnt really solve the imbalance completely, because mithril is farmable, and leather is still used less in ascended recipes.
it would have an effect.

But if your goal is to have balance, the question becomes which is better balanced in terms of how much grinding it should take to get best in slot.`

I dont think it should take 4-5 hours a day for 36 days to get best in slot for armor alone

It doesn’t take 4-5 hours for 36 days, it takes less than 2 hours of running dungeons for enough gold to afford 300 silk scraps.

I really want to know why Damask still takes 100 bolts of silk instead of 50 when silk is extremely expensive now.

azurrei.5691:

Ayrilana.1396:

azurrei.5691:

Ayrilana.1396:

The +30 to a single stat will not significantly alter his results and conclusion.

Sure, but looking at just armor, which this thread is mainly complaining about, it is a 4% boost in power over exotic which is rather significant as he states it as a 1% increase, which it isn’t.

Did you run the numbers?

what numbers? +44 power over exotic is ~4% boost to armor power

A 4% boost to stats does not equal a 4% boost to damage.

Shiyo.3578:

It doesn’t take 4-5 hours for 36 days, it takes less than 2 hours of running dungeons for enough gold to afford 300 silk scraps.

I really want to know why Damask still takes 100 bolts of silk instead of 50 when silk is extremely expensive now.

the 4-5 hours was the whole time investment.
2 hours of dungeon running just gets you the silk, you still need the dargonite, empyreals, bloodstone, linen, cotton, wool, obsidian karma etc.
that said its a rough estimate, i dont remember exactly how much time you have to spend on average. it at least adds an hour i would say though.

I’d like to once again reiterate that the reason silk requires more is because there is a cloth/leather faucet that is constantly dumping materials into the economy without anyone intending to create them whereas this same faucet does not exist for ore/logs which are primarily generated by people intentionally gathering them in order to satisfy their own demand.

This ambient generation of materials is evenly distributed, as opposed to the farming generation method found with ore/logs which means that while the overall generation of cloth/leather is very high, individual generation is low requiring an individual to interact with other individuals in order to satisfy demand spikes that exceed their personal generation ability.

Long story short, ore/logs typically have a dynamic generation rate that satisfies demand, which limits the amount of excess product floating around. Cloth/leather have a relatively static generation rate which does not adapt well to changes in demand resulting in higher prices for T5 cloth (which has higher demand) and near useless prices for T5 leather (which has low demand).

mtpelion.4562:

I’d like to once again reiterate that the reason silk requires more is because there is a cloth/leather faucet that is constantly dumping materials into the economy without anyone intending to create them whereas this same faucet does not exist for ore/logs which are primarily generated by people intentionally gathering them in order to satisfy their own demand.

This ambient generation of materials is evenly distributed, as opposed to the farming generation method found with ore/logs which means that while the overall generation of cloth/leather is very high, individual generation is low requiring an individual to interact with other individuals in order to satisfy demand spikes that exceed their personal generation ability.

Long story short, ore/logs typically have a dynamic generation rate that satisfies demand, which limits the amount of excess product floating around. Cloth/leather have a relatively static generation rate which does not adapt well to changes in demand resulting in higher prices for T5 cloth (which has higher demand) and near useless prices for T5 leather (which has low demand).

this explains the how, but not the why , or the should this be the case.

phys.7689:

Kal Spiro.9745:

I agree. Silk should not be so misrepresented. They should boost the requirements of everything to match silk.

this wouldnt really solve the imbalance completely, because mithril is farmable, and leather is still used less in ascended recipes.
it would have an effect.

But if your goal is to have balance, the question becomes which is better balanced in terms of how much grinding it should take to get best in slot.`

I dont think it should take 4-5 hours a day for 36 days to get best in slot for armor alone

If you could make insignias with elonian squares it would be a step towards fixing the leather problem significantly and take pressure off the silk market.

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

In the end, i agree, that light armor users are a bit shafted by the daily timegate and I dont mind, if they find a way to bring them on par with medium and heavy armor.

But then we have to look at other timegates as well, that are disproportionally distributed.

Why do heavy armor users have to spend 55 laurels and 33g for the recipes in order to get a full ascended weapon set and an engi only has to spend 20 laurels and 12g, an ele only needs 25 laurels and 15g?

35 Laurels is a huge difference and makes the 6 days that a light armor user needs more to craft his damask (which can be circumvented by buying it directly anyways) seem miniscule.

heavy armor users dont have to spend more
warrior does
thats it.
Guardian has 6 possiible weapons

its looking like revenant will also not have many weapons, considering it cant even weapon swap.

now having more weapons gives you more options, but not more power. While i would prefer more options, over more power, having more options is a feature of warrior, it is basically a master of arms. Now with warrior you are actually talking about real options and trade offs. They can only use 2-4 weapons in combat but they can select from a greater pool. The cost, for the gain of having more options than every one else is having more stuff to buy. Thats actually a real trade off.

ascended doesnt give you more options. you can choose to be weak, or not to be weak.

Now this whole side tangent isnt really relevant, because even if you think weapons are messed up, that doesnt mean damask is in good place.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Weapon#Weapon_usability_by_professions

Guardian also uses 11 different weapons.

my fault, i was ignoring underwater and missed a few
but by that method of counting
mesmer has 9
necro has 8
theif has 8

if you consider that some classes need to have two of a weapon at once
then mesmer needs 10
guardian needs 11
necro needs 10
warrior needs 14

so there really is still no corelation between number of weapons and armor cost. My assumption is that is because you only can actually use 2-4 weapons in combat, and more weapons actually gives you more options outside of encounters, not more power in an encounter.

The corelation is that full weapon sets are also gated at a different duration for most classes to acquire.
And it was an example to underline my point that different builds for different classes might differ in their acquisition methods and costs.

It’ll keep climbing because more is demanded from than is supplied into the market. The “fix” Wanze mentioned was adding a temporary, additional source of silk (festivals) into the market, which indeed did increase supply and reduce the price. But this fix was, as said, temporary.

Dropping the requirement for Damask by 50% would probably make silk worthless again over time, so there should be some middle ground. In another thread some of us suggested adding harvesting nodes for cloth, which would introduce a reliably farmable source of cloth, while reducing the random drops of cloth. That way the market could set the price of cloth themselves by intentionally generating more silk when it’s getting expensive and less silk when it’s getting cheap.

For some reason, Wanze seems to think it would not be a good option. My guess is he’s sitting on stacks and stacks of silk bolts in his banks, rubbing his hands together gleefully while watching the price go up and up.

eithinan.9841:

phys.7689:

Kal Spiro.9745:

I agree. Silk should not be so misrepresented. They should boost the requirements of everything to match silk.

this wouldnt really solve the imbalance completely, because mithril is farmable, and leather is still used less in ascended recipes.
it would have an effect.

But if your goal is to have balance, the question becomes which is better balanced in terms of how much grinding it should take to get best in slot.`

I dont think it should take 4-5 hours a day for 36 days to get best in slot for armor alone

If you could make insignias with elonian squares it would be a step towards fixing the leather problem significantly and take pressure off the silk market.

i think allowing you to make insignias with leather or metals, would be a big balancer, it would also unify the time requirement a lot more.

Actually I would argue that the ability to farm does directly affect the prices in the TP and if you have an insane amount of scarcity on a resource especially one that is so essential to everything necessary in progression, it becomes more than a simple price gauging issue for the masses.

It’s been a long known issue that farming even for the most basic resources is downright crazy in this game and it’s nothing like it is in any other title out there, and we’re not even talking about something that should be rare here we’re talking about silk. Silk not dropping off of humanoids that were once normal is about as frustrating as hooves not dropping off of Zevras which is a well known example of what’s wrong with this type of mentality.

When you’re fighting furry creatures shouldn’t they drop fur? When you kill an animal shouldn’t it drop meat 100% of the time?

The same goes for silk, cotton, etc it should drop there shouldn’t be a chance for it to drop. What do the clothes just disappear from the dead humanoid?

To me that’s as central a topic in this discussion as to why silk would become so expensive in the first place really. This isn’t gossamer we’re talking about here it’s silk. Normal basics shouldn’t be made rare just to preserve the failing economy, it should be fixed at this point because it just doesn’t work, countless years of MMO development history point to that fact.

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

In the end, i agree, that light armor users are a bit shafted by the daily timegate and I dont mind, if they find a way to bring them on par with medium and heavy armor.

But then we have to look at other timegates as well, that are disproportionally distributed.

Why do heavy armor users have to spend 55 laurels and 33g for the recipes in order to get a full ascended weapon set and an engi only has to spend 20 laurels and 12g, an ele only needs 25 laurels and 15g?

35 Laurels is a huge difference and makes the 6 days that a light armor user needs more to craft his damask (which can be circumvented by buying it directly anyways) seem miniscule.

heavy armor users dont have to spend more
warrior does
thats it.
Guardian has 6 possiible weapons

its looking like revenant will also not have many weapons, considering it cant even weapon swap.

now having more weapons gives you more options, but not more power. While i would prefer more options, over more power, having more options is a feature of warrior, it is basically a master of arms. Now with warrior you are actually talking about real options and trade offs. They can only use 2-4 weapons in combat but they can select from a greater pool. The cost, for the gain of having more options than every one else is having more stuff to buy. Thats actually a real trade off.

ascended doesnt give you more options. you can choose to be weak, or not to be weak.

Now this whole side tangent isnt really relevant, because even if you think weapons are messed up, that doesnt mean damask is in good place.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Weapon#Weapon_usability_by_professions

Guardian also uses 11 different weapons.

my fault, i was ignoring underwater and missed a few
but by that method of counting
mesmer has 9
necro has 8
theif has 8

if you consider that some classes need to have two of a weapon at once
then mesmer needs 10
guardian needs 11
necro needs 10
warrior needs 14

so there really is still no corelation between number of weapons and armor cost. My assumption is that is because you only can actually use 2-4 weapons in combat, and more weapons actually gives you more options outside of encounters, not more power in an encounter.

The corelation is that full weapon sets are also gated at a different duration for most classes to acquire.
And it was an example to underline my point that different builds for different classes might differ in their acquisition methods and costs.

i said there is no corelation between armor cost, and the amount of weapons you need for a full set for all possible uses.

and yes different builds have different costs due to weapons. but remember that weapon choice is a reflection of options, whereas gear teir is a reflection only of power.

a warrior is paying for more options in battle, but not more overall power.

eithinan.9841:

phys.7689:

Kal Spiro.9745:

I agree. Silk should not be so misrepresented. They should boost the requirements of everything to match silk.

this wouldnt really solve the imbalance completely, because mithril is farmable, and leather is still used less in ascended recipes.
it would have an effect.

But if your goal is to have balance, the question becomes which is better balanced in terms of how much grinding it should take to get best in slot.`

I dont think it should take 4-5 hours a day for 36 days to get best in slot for armor alone

If you could make insignias with elonian squares it would be a step towards fixing the leather problem significantly and take pressure off the silk market.

Thats a good suggestion. I also think the best way to fix the imbalance between crafting costs of asc cloth/leather/metal is to take off some demand for damask and put it on leather.
Personally i would prefer to use leather to pad out heavy armor, instead of damask.

But both of our suggestions recquire either all armor professions to be able to refine leather or adding it to heavy armorsmith. That change doesnt seem as simple as it looks because it will affect way more crafting recipes down the line.

Wanze.8410:

eithinan.9841:

phys.7689:

Kal Spiro.9745:

I agree. Silk should not be so misrepresented. They should boost the requirements of everything to match silk.

this wouldnt really solve the imbalance completely, because mithril is farmable, and leather is still used less in ascended recipes.
it would have an effect.

But if your goal is to have balance, the question becomes which is better balanced in terms of how much grinding it should take to get best in slot.`

I dont think it should take 4-5 hours a day for 36 days to get best in slot for armor alone

If you could make insignias with elonian squares it would be a step towards fixing the leather problem significantly and take pressure off the silk market.

Thats a good suggestion. I also think the best way to fix the imbalance between crafting costs of asc cloth/leather/metal is to take off some demand for damask and put it on leather.
Personally i would prefer to use leather to pad out heavy armor, instead of damask.

But both of our suggestions recquire either all armor professions to be able to refine leather or adding it to heavy armorsmith. That change doesnt seem as simple as it looks because it will affect way more crafting recipes down the line.

they could make it craftable with metal as well.
so basically people could choose which material for the insiginia

that said, i dont think it would be crazy to give armorsmith access to leather.

Lets all jump into the wayback machine when the game started, silk was plentiful, and kind of useless. It took two scraps to make a bolt, and unless you wanted to make armor between 300 and 399 in your crafting profession, there really wasn’t anything you could do with it. Unlike weapons you couldn’t make rares and throw them in the forge, so they just sat there gathering dust.

Along the way they added a couple of things to the game to reduce the overload of silk. Making a bolt increased from 2 scraps to 3 was a big example, but there was still no real use for that silk that was no in lower supply. There was still an abundance of silk that nobody knew what to do with and its value on the trade post was fundamentally nil(you know, like leather). This still really wasn’t so much of an issue because the applications for silk were negligible.

Then ascended armor crafting came in, and this is where the problem began(and still exists). Silk is required for every armor crafting profession, and they require an ungodly amount of it. Increased demand, reduced supply, does very much lead to the price spike we’re dealing with, and the ramifications go considerably further than that.

Unlike Metal or Wood, you can’t just put your head down and grind out nodes, it can only be earned at a painstaking rate from salvaging. The isn’t so bad considering silk can be salvaged from gear dropped for lv 80 characters, however to make Damask you also need Wool, Cotton, and Linen – which are almost unattainable for the level 80 player. Those materials have also seen a ridiculous spike in price, putting them fundamentally outside of the reach new players making level appropriate armor through crafting.

mtpelion.4562:

I’d like to once again reiterate that the reason silk requires more is because there is a cloth/leather faucet that is constantly dumping materials into the economy without anyone intending to create them whereas this same faucet does not exist for ore/logs which are primarily generated by people intentionally gathering them in order to satisfy their own demand.

This ambient generation of materials is evenly distributed, as opposed to the farming generation method found with ore/logs which means that while the overall generation of cloth/leather is very high, individual generation is low requiring an individual to interact with other individuals in order to satisfy demand spikes that exceed their personal generation ability.

Long story short, ore/logs typically have a dynamic generation rate that satisfies demand, which limits the amount of excess product floating around. Cloth/leather have a relatively static generation rate which does not adapt well to changes in demand resulting in higher prices for T5 cloth (which has higher demand) and near useless prices for T5 leather (which has low demand).

sorry if this is an obvious thing but what is this faucet you talk (only thing i can think of being possible is salvaging, but that requires a specific type of armor drops or rag salvage mats which can produce things other than silk also

eithinan.9841:

If you could make insignias with elonian squares it would be a step towards fixing the leather problem significantly and take pressure off the silk market.

phys.7689:

i think allowing you to make insignias with leather or metals, would be a big balancer, it would also unify the time requirement a lot more.

Wanze.8410:

Thats a good suggestion. I also think the best way to fix the imbalance between crafting costs of asc cloth/leather/metal is to take off some demand for damask and put it on leather.
Personally i would prefer to use leather to pad out heavy armor, instead of damask.

But both of our suggestions recquire either all armor professions to be able to refine leather or adding it to heavy armorsmith. That change doesnt seem as simple as it looks because it will affect way more crafting recipes down the line.

Im gonna pat my self on the back for a good idea that literally brought the 2 people on opposite ends of this thread discussion into agreement. Thanks guys, this actually made my day. And I agree of course that its easier said than done.

phys.7689:

Kal Spiro.9745:

I agree. Silk should not be so misrepresented. They should boost the requirements of everything to match silk.

this wouldnt really solve the imbalance completely, because mithril is farmable, and leather is still used less in ascended recipes.
it would have an effect.

But if your goal is to have balance, the question becomes which is better balanced in terms of how much grinding it should take to get best in slot.`

I dont think it should take 4-5 hours a day for 36 days to get best in slot for armor alone

Nah, I just hope it will bring up the price on the other mats so I can make more money off the shlubs worrying about their ascended gear.

Kal Spiro.9745:

phys.7689:

Kal Spiro.9745:

I agree. Silk should not be so misrepresented. They should boost the requirements of everything to match silk.

this wouldnt really solve the imbalance completely, because mithril is farmable, and leather is still used less in ascended recipes.
it would have an effect.

But if your goal is to have balance, the question becomes which is better balanced in terms of how much grinding it should take to get best in slot.`

I dont think it should take 4-5 hours a day for 36 days to get best in slot for armor alone

Nah, I just hope it will bring up the price on the other mats so I can make more money off the shlubs worrying about their ascended gear.

I think you get it. The others yammering about ‘balance’ do not. This is the same level of silly caused by people QQing about silver doubloons. These differences aren’t surprises to anyone at Anet so it’s reasonable to ask what positive impact they have to the game. There are some but of course, it requires people to have a little more insight than crying ‘unfair’ and put the blinders on.

I actually all for fixing this without getting back to 1c silk or making crafting ascended armor a trivial activity. I can’t help feel there is too much perspective not being taken in this thread.

Wanze.8410:

In the end, i agree, that light armor users are a bit shafted by the daily timegate and I dont mind, if they find a way to bring them on par with medium and heavy armor.

But then we have to look at other timegates as well, that are disproportionally distributed.

Why do heavy armor users have to spend 55 laurels and 33g for the recipes in order to get a full ascended weapon set and an engi only has to spend 20 laurels and 12g, an ele only needs 25 laurels and 15g?

35 Laurels is a huge difference and makes the 6 days that a light armor user needs more to craft his damask (which can be circumvented by buying it directly anyways) seem miniscule.

35 laurels is easily gotten with the new system. And are you seriously saying that HAVING MORE WEAPON CHOICES is a bad thing?? I am sure Engineers And Eles would gladly be ‘punished’ with having to craft more ascended weapons, if they had more weapons to use.

Seriously…that is one of the single worst arguments I have ever seen on here.

Wanze.8410:

dietzero.3514:

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

Ashen.2907:

1) anet is not infallible so a customer questioning actions or decisions that negatively impact the game for them is appropriate.

2) Anet has reversed course on previously made design decisions fairly frequently since launch. In almost every case it has been after customers expressed dissatisfaction with the design decision.

Sure, but you don’t get it … it’s already been questioned, it’s already been answered. Of course they can reverse something but we already know the process here isn’t “If we QQ enough, Anet changes it”. In fact, that’s rarely how Devs work.

there has been numerous occaisions where if the users did not question something, it would never have been fixed.
there are numerous occaisons where something has been improved or changed.

And heres the thing you dont realize, even if devs know or accept that they have a problem, they still have to make the descion on how to fix, and when to fix, and wether the cost makes it worthwhile to fix.

so, yeah they actually need people to QQ so they can not only identify things that arent working for the customers, they also need QQ so they can prioritize what/when to fix things.

QQ is actually not bad at all. Its annoying sure, but its pretty useful. QQ in an iterative system is essential.

But Anet fixed the silk price in the last couple of months already.

No, they really did not.

Silk Scraps went from ~3.5s to ~1.75s between October 7th and January 29th, while the supply went from 250k to 1000k.

Whats your source?

A temporary influx of silk is NOT a solution. The price will just steadily go back up; which is exactly what it is doing.

tfcgeneralkmk.9508:

sorry if this is an obvious thing but what is this faucet you talk (only thing i can think of being possible is salvaging, but that requires a specific type of armor drops or rag salvage mats which can produce things other than silk also

Bags. Every type of bag drops cloth and leather at a very high rate. Almost no bag drops ore or logs.