Guild Wars 2

Ohoni.6057:

No one has made any compelling reasons to change things either.

Because we want it. That’s a compelling reason.

Ohoni.6057:

Yes, which is why I never said that they should give us everything that we want

Well?? How can anyone discuss your points when you contradict yourself.

If something has a compelling reason to do something then it should be done, right?

Ohoni.6057:

You do know that cutting sentences in half to remove their context is the weakest form of discourse, right?

So is editing out who you are quoting and cherry picking from different posters to muddy the discussion. Cutting out 1 sentence from a full paragraph is just as bad about losing the context of something, even worse when you lump it in with other people quotes. You are then creating your own context for the quotes which is disingenuous at best or malicious at worst.

Ohoni.6057:

the market still needs some fundamental changes made to it because this is a game and players are entitled

all I did to this was cut out a comma.

Ohoni.6057:

No, but efforts should be taken to balance out their rewards with everyone else so that things don’t become too stratified, and that is not a “punishment.” The more the make, the less of it you need, and the more of it should go to the public good.

I believe this indicates you have a more socialist POV on life? Nothing wrong with that but it isn’t how Evon Gnashblade works.

Rauderi.8706:

none of it makes a difference in the fact that Ascended cloth crafting is imbalanced with the rest of the system. The silk market is just a symptom of that.

I’m not sure what other good ideas will come with reintroducing a more positive take on Ascended crafting, but changing insignia seems like a solid one with at least a little support from ‘both sides’.

I like the idea of opening all the T7 mats for insignia use. I suggested it around page 4.

Wanze.8410:

It has been 5 days and i made 185g through trading. That is enough gold to buy 8400 silk scraps and I didnt even have to kill more than a couple of dozen monsters to get my initial investment.

I didnt spend more than 90 minutes on that account each day.

Awesome. If I had wanted to spend an hour and a half every night playing a stock market simulator I would have bought one of those. You’re also kind of brushing aside the months of research that you spent developing the skills to manipulate the Guild Wars 2 market. Seriously, what new player is going to log into this game and turn their 5g into 185g by treating it as a stock market simulator? And how would you classify that as normal play? All I’ve been saying is that ArenaNet stated a goal of allowing players to get their BiS gear (up to and including ascended, per Colin’s statement) through the normal course of play. A disciplined regimen of champ trains, world bosses, stock market simulation, dungeon speed clears, WvW binges, and/or gold farming may all qualify as normal in your world, but I strongly doubt that most players live in that world.

eithinan.9841:

Since you don’t do fractals why do you feel you need ascended armor?

Need is irrelevant. Colin explicitly stated that ArenaNet categorizes ascended armor as gear that was never intended to be a grind. Furthermore, why would anyone be happy being at 3% less stats than everyone else? Finally, when did I ever say I don’t do fractals?

Smooth Penguin.5294:

If Anet gave players everything that they wanted, the game would last one week. We’d all have 50k Gold, full Ascended armor, and every Legendary weapon upon purchase of the game.

Who’s asking for 50k gold and legendary weapons? I just want the ascended armor, which is what was implied in the manifesto. It was also given to me in Guild Wars 1 pretty quickly. I don’t mind grinding for skins or legendaries. I do mind having to grind for BiS gear in a game that marketed itself as not requiring a grind for BiS gear.

Bernie.8674:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

If Anet gave players everything that they wanted, the game would last one week. We’d all have 50k Gold, full Ascended armor, and every Legendary weapon upon purchase of the game.

Who’s asking for 50k gold and legendary weapons? I just want the ascended armor, which is what was implied in the manifesto. It was also given to me in Guild Wars 1 pretty quickly. I don’t mind grinding for skins or legendaries. I do mind having to grind for BiS gear in a game that marketed itself as not requiring a grind for BiS gear.

You dont have to grind. Just play whatever content you want and you will make progress towards your ascended armor. How fast that progress is, is entirely up to you.

Some make it in 2 weeks, some need over a year.

Well?? How can anyone discuss your points when you contradict yourself.

If something has a compelling reason to do something then it should be done, right?

Because if you keep those comments in context, the logic is simple. Every outcome is decided by weighing the pros and the cons. What they “should do” is the outcome of that consideration, so while “because we want it” is a compelling “pro,” it only becomes what they “should do” if it outweighs any competing “cons.” I believe in this case it does, but in facetious situations like the “give everyone everything right away” example, the cons would outweigh the pros.

I really shouldn’t have to explain this to adults.

So is editing out who you are quoting and cherry picking from different posters to muddy the discussion. Cutting out 1 sentence from a full paragraph is just as bad about losing the context of something, even worse when you lump it in with other people quotes. You are then creating your own context for the quotes which is disingenuous at best or malicious at worst.

Show one example of a post in which I was not addressing a comment in the full context from which it was taken? Admittedly, I sometimes cut a sentence fro a paragraph, largely because this board has ridiculous post size limits, but I always address it as if discussing the entire paragraph’s contents. I do not pretend that it’s saying something it isn’t.

all I did to this was cut out a comma.

Commas exist for a reason. To certain grammaristas, “all I did to this was cut out a comma.” is fighting words. Are fighting words? I’m not sure. Is. I think its is. It’s.

I believe this indicates you have a more socialist POV on life? Nothing wrong with that but it isn’t how Evon Gnashblade works.

More socialist than some, centrist by others, but that’s kind of my point. Evon Gnashblade seems to be a very out of place element within the whole of GW2, like a very family friendly sitcom that has one character from the Wire in it, completely unfiltered.

Awesome. If I had wanted to spend an hour and a half every night playing a stock market simulator I would have bought one of those. You’re also kind of brushing aside the months of research that you spent developing the skills to manipulate the Guild Wars 2 market. Seriously, what new player is going to log into this game and turn their 5g into 185g by treating it as a stock market simulator? And how would you classify that as normal play?

Agreed. Highlighting play like Wanze’s helps no one. If he wants to give an example of “the system working,” he should try to achieve the same results, while accessing the TP interface to sell ONLY items that his own character looted from the world, and to buy ONLY items that he himself intends to consume/equip. See how long it takes him then.

.

You dont have to grind. Just play whatever content you want and you will make progress towards your ascended armor. How fast that progress is, is entirely up to you.

Some make it in 2 weeks, some need over a year.

And the argument being made here is that the existing methods make it too limited an experience if you’re going for anywhere near 2 weeks, while too many of the available options are more in the year territory. We would like to see a wider variety of options that are more in the “several months” range. You seem to take the stance that the game cannot be flawed so long as it provides choices and players choose between them. I take the position that it’s within the players’ rights to request more and better choices than the ones handed to them.

Bernie.8674:

eithinan.9841:

Since you don’t do fractals why do you feel you need ascended armor?

Need is irrelevant. Colin explicitly stated that ArenaNet categorizes ascended armor as gear that was never intended to be a grind. Furthermore, why would anyone be happy being at 3% less stats than everyone else? Finally, when did I ever say I don’t do fractals?

My mistake, I thought you had given a run down of the content you participated in from the post I quoted. Ascended armor isn’t a grind unless you make it one. A grind is being required to run the same content over and over again for the next carrot.

For instance, if you had to run COF for a small chance at ascended gloves and that was the ONLY way to get ascended gloves, that would be a grind. Going out and finding/farming mats specifically for certain items is not a grind, Not when Everything in the WORLD has a chance to help you progress towards your goal. Again, there is a difference between something that you need to GRIND out and a long term goal that does not affect your ability to do any content available.

Ohoni.6057:

Because if you keep those comments in context, the logic is simple. Every outcome is decided by weighing the pros and the cons. What they “should do” is the outcome of that consideration, so while “because we want it” is a compelling “pro,” it only becomes what they “should do” if it outweighs any competing “cons.” I believe in this case it does, but in facetious situations like the “give everyone everything right away” example, the cons would outweigh the pros.

This is where we disagree. The reason “because I want it” is only a compelling pro if backed up with some reason it will benefit the whole with minimal negative impact. THEN you need to weigh those pros and cons. The reason it is incumbent on the person who “wants it” to prove their change would be a positive one is because it would require the reallocation of resources to achieve the desired outcome when there is a working system in place already.

This goes back to, you still haven’t proven there is a problem outside of unintentionally pointing out how leather and other mats are under performing.

Aidan Savage.2078:

Psientist.6437:

Pardon the bluntness but I consider what you’re describing to be fundamentally flawed game design. Weight-locked insignias would increase the disparity for players who spend time for the sake of hypothetical parity among players who spend currency.

Your predictions are hypothetical, they do not take into account the wide range of possible player reactions. For instance, the change in TP demand for silk could be accompanied by a decrease in the TP supply of silk as both medium and heavy armor crafters move towards more reliable sources of leather and ore.

False. Neither you nor I will know whether it will increase disparity or not. The point of weight-restricted insignia would be to decrease the high demand for the various fabrics required, while at the same time increasing the demand for the various ores and leathers by the, on paper, same amount. Whatever the true result of that is, no one knows. As it stands now, I, personally, refuse to mine mithril as weapon and heavy armor salvage gives me what I need. I also vendor about a stack of thick leather sections once or twice a week (more if my work schedule permits more play time). Silk I often dont have because it’s being refined into damask’s T7 material, which, again due to play time currently, is usually 1-1.5 a week. Do I complain about my limited play time keeping me from farming silk or damask? No, why would I? If I was going to do that, I’d complain about elonian leather (being able to buy not applicable), deldrimor ingots (being able to buy not applicable), and spiritwood planks (being able to buy not applicable) because I’m similarly limited from crafting those as well.

Second, and this is going to be rather blunt, but of course my predictions are hypothetical, I’m not an economist, Jon Smith, OR Uncle Pennybags. Obviously my limited theoretical knowledge and (enough to get by) practical knowledge means I cant say, “silk is going to do this.”

Third, what reliable sources of leather? You mean the same exact ones that silk can come from? You know? Salvage and containers? Even if the supply decreases, that too would be temporary. If the demand is that high still, a drop in supply pushes value, which then creates incentives to go out and supply silk. Same is true of leather and mithril.

Had more, but gotta spend my time efficiently while I can x.x

Weight-locked inscriptions will increase the gathering workload disparity between armor weights. Compare the material amounts between Bolts, Squares and Ingots:

An Elonian Leather Square requires 62.5% of the material units of similar acquisition reliability/frequency than a Bolt of Damask.

A Deldrimor Steel Ingot requires 57.5% of the material units of higher acquisition reliability/frequency than a Bolt of Damask.

There is already a disparity in how long it takes to gather the materials to craft the different ascended armor weights, and weight-locked insignias increase that disparity. That statement is not a prediction, just math.

I do not think a guaranteed increase in the workload disparity to gather materials is worth a hypothetical increase in the workload parity to buy the materials with gold.

I think a universal insignia recipe that uses one each of the time gated materials (bolt, square, and ingot) would be a more effective way to increase the parity of both gathering and buying workloads. The recipe for each time gated material would need to be available to all three weight classes.

Bernie.8674:

I do mind having to grind for BiS gear in a game that marketed itself as not requiring a grind for BiS gear.

You’re in luck. GW2 is a game that’s designed without a required grind. See Colin’s quote recently:

ColinJohanson.2394:

- Grind: To us, grind means being required to do the same boring activity over and over again.

Anet gives us stuff to do. Getting BiS gear is a privilege, meaning you’ve earned it once you get it. No one is Entitled or forced to get BiS, nor is there a timeframe in which one must get it, thus there is no grind.

Ohoni.6057:

Agreed. Highlighting play like Wanze’s helps no one. If he wants to give an example of “the system working,” he should try to achieve the same results, while accessing the TP interface to sell ONLY items that his own character looted from the world, and to buy ONLY items that he himself intends to consume/equip. See how long it takes him then.

I’d like address this. What you’re doing is highlighting the problem that exists in this game, and many others. People are jealous of success, and look for ways to justify calling TP players terms like “exploiting”, “manipulators”, or “cheaters”. Wanze, Vol, and other expert players understand the Demand of certain items, and in turn sells them for a profit to others who are willing to pay their prices. What about other players of skill? Yes, we can all be jealous of the SPvP Champions. Their game play is above and beyond what many of us are capable of. But I’ve yet to see anyone call them “cheaters” for knowing how to coordinate map strategies, and team compositions to be the most effective group.

From a psychological standpoint – The difference here is that being a TP player is much more in reach to nearly everyone, while being an expert PvPer is not. Because everyone has the opportunity to trade on the TP for profit, but don’t make the efforts to do so, they’re really angry at themselves. This anger then manifests outward to the very people they wish to emulate. These people need to take a step back, and focus that negative energy into a positive attempt to learn Wanze’s skills. Learn how to buy low, sell high, and understand breakeven price points so they, too, can make money on the TP.

NOTE – Profit on the TP is finite. Players currently profiting only do so because there’s limited competitions. The more players who enter the competitive TP market will diminish the potential gains for everyone. If you truly want to “fight the system”, the best way is to join the very system you claim to hate. But as the saying goes, more competition is healthy, and will benefit the players who just buy to gear themselves.

Page 18, john still not has answered why damask is still 100 bolts of silk instead of 50 when silk is so expensive compared to other t5 mats and every other ascended item is only 50.

edit: Forgot to mention. damask is also 4x the price of every other ascended mat

The number of people making 1000s of gold a day trading on the TP is likely comparable to the number of people in the current sPvP world competition. This kind of TP trading is simply not accessible to most players playing the game. If it was, we’d be seeing a far different economy than we now do.

Shiyo.3578:

Page 18, john still not has answered why damask is still 100 bolts of silk instead of 50 when silk is so expensive compared to other t5 mats and every other ascended item is only 50.

Or why a bolt of silk requires 4 scraps to make.

Celtic Lady.3729:

The number of people making 1000s of gold a day trading on the TP is likely comparable to the number of people in the current sPvP world competition. This kind of TP trading is simply not accessible to most players playing the game. If it was, we’d be seeing a far different economy than we now do.

Here’s a quote that should address your concern:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

From a psychological standpoint – The difference here is that being a TP player is much more in reach to nearly everyone, while being an expert PvPer is not. Because everyone has the opportunity to trade on the TP for profit, but don’t make the efforts to do so, they’re really angry at themselves. This anger then manifests outward to the very people they wish to emulate. These people need to take a step back, and focus that negative energy into a positive attempt to learn Wanze’s skills. Learn how to buy low, sell high, and understand breakeven price points so they, too, can make money on the TP.

NOTE – Profit on the TP is finite. Players currently profiting only do so because there’s limited competitions. The more players who enter the competitive TP market will diminish the potential gains for everyone. If you truly want to “fight the system”, the best way is to join the very system you claim to hate. But as the saying goes, more competition is healthy, and will benefit the players who just buy to gear themselves.

Ohoni.6057:

No one has made any compelling reasons to change things either.

Because we want it. That’s a compelling reason. Now there needs to be a reason to not give us what we want. In game design, everything is about “what do the players want,” and “can we feasibly give it to them?”

Well, I cant really say that’s a compelling reason but “thumbs up” for the honesty.

You do know that cutting sentences in half to remove their context is the weakest form of discourse, right? Well, aside from random fart jokes, I suppose.

Let’s qualify a bit, the argument has to be compelling … to ANet. I doubt “I want it” meets their criteria for what compels them to do anything.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

It isn’t a concern of mine and your quote is completely irrelevant to my point.

This is where we disagree. The reason “because I want it” is only a compelling pro if backed up with some reason it will benefit the whole with minimal negative impact.

Ah, ok. So the problem is that you don’t know what the word “pro” means. The pro is entirely the upside. It doesn’t require any balance, it’s all about “why would this be good?” The “con” is where the potential downsides go. So the “pro” in this case is “because we want it and it would make us happy to have it.” It’s the “con” side’s responsibility to present reasons why it would maybe be a bad idea, and bless your hearts you guys have tried, but so far we’ve been able to negate any significant “con” positions, so the balance outcome is that making the change would probably be a good idea.

Not every change needs a dispassionate logical reason for it to take place, “because it’s cool” is a good reason to do something, if there aren’t better reasons not to. You guys have just failed to present better reasons why they should not make this change.

I’d like address this. What you’re doing is highlighting the problem that exists in this game, and many others. People are jealous of success, and look for ways to justify calling TP players terms like “exploiting”, “manipulators”, or “cheaters”.

Tomayto, tomahto. You call it jealousy, I call it imbalance. In either case, I stand behind my position that it is wrong for the system to so heavily benefit those who are willing and able to play the markets, over those who are uninterested or incapable of playing the markets, and there is absolutely nothing you could do to convince me otherwise.

What about other players of skill? Yes, we can all be jealous of the SPvP Champions. Their game play is above and beyond what many of us are capable of. But I’ve yet to see anyone call them “cheaters” for knowing how to coordinate map strategies, and team compositions to be the most effective group.

But what is the advantage of being the very best of PvPers? One unique armor set? Access to a dragon finisher in PvP? Big whup? What’s the advantage to being the best at the TP? Having a ton of money with which you can buy almost anything in the game, including the top tier weapons, the most onerous components of the top tier armors, and even gems with which to buy the “real money” items in the game.

I’m not particularly jealous of top tier PvPers because I don’t really value anything they can achieve through their efforts, but I suppose I am jealous of TP fat-cats, and I think for very justified reasons.

From a psychological standpoint – The difference here is that being a TP player is much more in reach to nearly everyone, while being an expert PvPer is not. Because everyone has the opportunity to trade on the TP for profit, but don’t make the efforts to do so, they’re really angry at themselves. This anger then manifests outward to the very people they wish to emulate. These people need to take a step back, and focus that negative energy into a positive attempt to learn Wanze’s skills. Learn how to buy low, sell high, and understand breakeven price points so they, too, can make money on the TP.

No.

While there is certainly a certain potion of the players who will never be capable of learning to use the TP effectively, the bigger issue is not people who are just “too lazy” to learn the TP, it’s people who don’t think that they should have to learn the TP in the first place. This is an adventure RPG, not a stock market simulator. Learning to use the TP should not be considered an essential skill for the average player to learn if he wants to make a reasonable income. If I really wanted to become a market fat-cat, I likely could, but that is not an activity that I have any interest in. All I want is for the rewards available to those who do enjoy TP-play to be more in line with the rewards available through other activities.

I’m not saying you shouldn’t be able to make money off the TP, but the money that you earn should be comparable to the amount that a player would earn through normal PvE gameplay on a “per hour of ingame time” and a “per day/week/month of out of game time” level.

And again, none of that “TP profits aren’t a reward because they come from other players” nonsense. If it’s something that you gain that you did not have in your pocket before, then it is a reward to you, regardless of the source.

Celtic Lady.3729:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

It isn’t a concern of mine and your quote is completely irrelevant to my point.

Ignore him. He’s been making irrelevant points for the last several pages now and trying to deflect the silk imbalance to protect a market. Bias is obvious under the thin guise of a champion of a balanced economy.
Nothing against economic balance, of course. I like the stuff I sell to have value.

What the slandering comments fail to address is the systemic imbalance of effort and material between weight classes. I’m not even addressing the role of Ascended as best-in-slot or as a long-term goal, even though as a “long-term goal,” there’s a certain amount of effort or excess that’s on one side or the other of sane. (Building one piece of a 6-piece set in a month of high-level play should honestly be the median, but I won’t speak for ANet’s intentions.)

Pulling myself back from that, the silk prices are the result of natural and artificial influence. In the real world, this would just be a thing. Silk products would be deemed more complicated (until a more efficient method comes around), and the material required versus the material created sets the supply and demand.
This being a game world with a thoughtful development of economics, design decisions need to take more into account than pure economics, so that the systems do not favor or disfavor play decisions too heavily. But, those play-oriented decisions still need to be wary of how they will affect the in-game market. I’m sure many of us have seen those kinds of games, where simple materials cost far, far more than they should, and GW2 is wise to avoid that.

So, as it stands, some of us are trying to conceive of good ideas to send forward, and it seems JS has taken an interest. He may very well have taken some thoughts to the relevant teams already and would not be at liberty to talk about it further. Demanding his presence or bickering about philosophies isn’t relevant at this time.

Celtic Lady.3729:

It isn’t a concern of mine and your quote is completely irrelevant to my point.

It’s very relevant. See your quote:

Celtic Lady.3729:

This kind of TP trading is simply not accessible to most players playing the game. If it was, we’d be seeing a far different economy than we now do.

If more players took the time to learn basic skills of Buying low and Selling high, while being aware of the breakeven/profit points, competition will naturally force prices downwards. To get to Wanze’s level is something else though.

Ohoni.6057:

This is an adventure RPG, not a stock market simulator. Learning to use the TP should not be considered an essential skill for the average player to learn if he wants to make a reasonable income. If I really wanted to become a market fat-cat, I likely could, but that is not an activity that I have any interest in.

John has stated that the Trading Post is very much a part of Tyria as anything else. It’s not a required skill to play the TP, nor is it required to be skilled enough to be in the Top 10 of PvPers. You have the choice to do so, and as you’ve said, you have no interest in it. Therefore you’ve basically given up all rights to complain. It’s like saying that you could become a pilot, but you don’t want to, then go on to complain that pilots make a pretty high salary.

Ohoni.6057:

All I want is for the rewards available to those who do enjoy TP-play to be more in line with the rewards available through other activities.

I’m not saying you shouldn’t be able to make money off the TP, but the money that you earn should be comparable to the amount that a player would earn through normal PvE gameplay on a “per hour of ingame time” and a “per day/week/month of out of game time” level.

And again, none of that “TP profits aren’t a reward because they come from other players” nonsense. If it’s something that you gain that you did not have in your pocket before, then it is a reward to you, regardless of the source.

/sigh

TP profits are not the same as rewards. One is newly generated coin that never existed in the game before. Profits are the exchange of existing coin between players, with 15% being deleted from the game forever. Your whole argument here is flawed because you’re comparing an Apple to a Skateboard. They are not the same.

Aidenwolf.5964:

Shiyo.3578:

Page 18, john still not has answered why damask is still 100 bolts of silk instead of 50 when silk is so expensive compared to other t5 mats and every other ascended item is only 50.

Or why a bolt of silk requires 3 scraps to make.

Fixed for you.

Aidenwolf.5964:

Shiyo.3578:

Page 18, john still not has answered why damask is still 100 bolts of silk instead of 50 when silk is so expensive compared to other t5 mats and every other ascended item is only 50.

Or why a bolt of silk requires 4 scraps to make.

Lets stick to the facts.

If you need 4 silk scraps for a bolt, you should post in the bug forum or contact customer support.

Rauderi.8706:

Celtic Lady.3729:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

It isn’t a concern of mine and your quote is completely irrelevant to my point.

Ignore him. He’s been making irrelevant points for the last several pages now

The silk discussion is interesting, no doubt, but it’s amusing how many people are pretending to know anything about either economics in general or this game’s economics in particular. It’s fairly easy to tell which is which, though.

What is even more interesting is that people are pretending to be ignorant of Anet knowing about their ingame economics and that they have already addressed this issue and would likely do so again if needed.

Celtic Lady.3729:

The silk discussion is interesting, no doubt, but it’s amusing how many people are pretending to know anything about either economics in general or this game’s economics in particular. It’s fairly easy to tell which is which, though.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt, as you probably don’t know who we are from the days of the Black Lion Trading forums. We’ve been debating (and defending) this game’s economy for years now. 99.9% of the time, we fall in line with John’s thinking, and direction of where he takes the game. There’s that rare 0.1% time when I didn’t agree with something. But it made me a lot of Gold, so I didn’t want to push the subject.

The same threads pop up constantly, with themes of “X, Y, and Z items are overpriced”. Some players want cheaper prices because they desire the item in question, and dislike the costs. Some players understand how the economy works, and ask for minor adjustments (like making Silk 3/1 -> 2/1 for Bolts) to make things more fair. But as far as overall prices are concerned for this thread, the underlying cause is Supply and Demand. Due to the artificial need more more Silk, Demand is high, and thus players are willing to pay more per Silk scrap. This leads to a naturally occurring rise in prices.

Obtena.7952:

What is even more interesting is that people are pretending to be ignorant of Anet knowing about their ingame economics and that they have already addressed this issue and would likely do so again if needed.

Anet makes economic mistakes all the time. Nobody is omniscient

Ohoni.6057:

This is where we disagree. The reason “because I want it” is only a compelling pro if backed up with some reason it will benefit the whole with minimal negative impact.

Ah, ok. So the problem is that you don’t know what the word “pro” means. [Snip cheap shot}

Here’s the rest of the quote. Care to address it?

eithinan.9841:

The reason it is incumbent on the person who “wants it” to prove their change would be a positive one is because it would require the reallocation of resources to achieve the desired outcome when there is a working system in place already.

This goes back to, you still haven’t proven there is a problem outside of unintentionally pointing out how leather and other mats are under performing.

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

What is even more interesting is that people are pretending to be ignorant of Anet knowing about their ingame economics and that they have already addressed this issue and would likely do so again if needed.

Anet makes economic mistakes all the time. Nobody is omniscient

But with what some players see as a mistake, Anet sees as “Working as intended”.

Remember, there’s a reason behind ever decision made in terms of the economy. John doesn’t have the ultimate power to decide on the fate of each item, and the players’ happiness. There are goals lined out by upper management, and John’s job is to make sure that the decisions are implemented properly so as the end result doesn’t deviate from their estimated figures.

The only mistake that I know of John admitting to was with the sheer amount of Bloodstone Dust players farmed. Something about it being 10 digits more than what he expected.

Obtena.7952:

The only mistake that I know of John admitting to was with the sheer amount of Bloodstone Dust players farmed. Something about it being 10 digits more than what he expected.

Do people really farm bloodstone dust? I’ve got more than 20 stacks of it in my vault and I didn’t farm any of it. I wish I could get rid of it.

Smooth Penguin.5294

The same threads pop up constantly, with themes of “X, Y, and Z items are overpriced”. Some players want cheaper prices because they desire the item in question, and dislike the costs. Some players understand how the economy works, and ask for minor adjustments (like making Silk 3/1 -> 2/1 for Bolts) to make things more fair. But as far as overall prices are concerned for this thread, the underlying cause is Supply and Demand. Due to the artificial need more more Silk, Demand is high, and thus players are willing to pay more per Silk scrap. This leads to a naturally occurring rise in prices.

Ayup. +1 for fact.

The silk upset has to do with the 3×100 formula than the actual prices. If silk went back to 2×50, a third of what it is now, the question becomes if the market can sustain at a new equilibrium after the initial price slump. If that’s in question, how can we flow more silk into the system to make the 3×100 formula more comparable to leather and mithril? That’s closer to the original question at hand.
Alternatively, how do we safely raise leather, which is already in the tank, possibly mithril, a direct-farm material, so that their use and trade is more in line with where silk is already?
From an gold-sink and economic health standpoint, the latter is probably the better approach anyway.* It would promote more even trade through the TP if T5 materials were closer to 1:1, and the trade fees would drink up a fair amount of excess gold.
Of course, option 2 doesn’t really address the numerical imbalance of classes/weights, which is where the suggestion of leather-crafted insignia entered the discussion several pages back. Raises leather, takes the burden off of cloth, pretty much a win-win, once the market re-stabilizes. Still favors metal/heavy overall, but..eh, can’t have everything?

*(Not a Ph.D. in economics. Consult an actual economist for details. If symptoms last longer than 4 hours, discontinue immediately.)

John has stated that the Trading Post is very much a part of Tyria as anything else.

And that is true, nobody is saying that it isn’t. The problem is that it’s a part of Tyria that is grossly out of balance with the other parts.

For another example of this, do a search for “Destiny loot cave.” When one part of a game is vastly more rewarding than any other part, that is a balance issue, and it should be corrected. Nobody is arguing that the TP should be removed, or that you shouldn’t be able to make money off of it, but the money you make off the TP should not have the potential to be vastly higher than through any other legitimate ingame means, any more than any one class should provide a hundred times more DPS than any other class without any trade-offs.

If the TP is to be considered “as much a part of Tyria as anything else,” then it needs to be held accountable to the same standards of balance.

You have the choice to do so, and as you’ve said, you have no interest in it. Therefore you’ve basically given up all rights to complain.

This statement is utter nonsense.

/sigh

TP profits are not the same as rewards.

What did I just tell you? Here, I’ll repeat it for you:

“And again, none of that “TP profits aren’t a reward because they come from other players” nonsense. If it’s something that you gain that you did not have in your pocket before, then it is a reward to you, regardless of the source.”

TP profits are in some ways a different sort of reward than other ingame rewards, but they are 100% rewards nonetheless by any reasonable standard use of the term. They are a “thing that you get, for doing something.”

That is a reward.

But let’s look into your much more limited, made-up definition of “reward” and attempt to apply it to other aspects of the game. Let’s try PvP. What if to enter a PvP tournament, you had to pony up 5g, and if you won the entire thing, you took home a pot of 85% of the total accumulated entry fees? Would that not be a "Reward’ to you? Or what if to enter a Triple Wurm map, you needed to pay in 5g, and if your map failed, you get nothing, if your map succeeds, the players on that map get a split of all the money put in by players on failed maps, minus a 15% cut. You have your redistribution of wealth, you have your 15% house cut, but the people receiving the proceeds are still receiving rewards. They have a thing now that they did not have before now, due to having done something. That is a reward. Stop trying to argue otherwise, it’s just nonsense.

Here’s the rest of the quote. Care to address it?

Yes, I did, several pages ago. We’ve already addressed all the potential problems with making this sort of change and come up with solutions to them, so what we’re left with is the “pro: we want this,” vs. “con: . . .”

Celtic Lady.3729:

Obtena.7952:

The only mistake that I know of John admitting to was with the sheer amount of Bloodstone Dust players farmed. Something about it being 10 digits more than what he expected.

Do people really farm bloodstone dust? I’ve got more than 20 stacks of it in my vault and I didn’t farm any of it. I wish I could get rid of it.

That must have happened before the Queensdale train was euthanized.

Rauderi.8706:

The silk upset has to do with the 3×100 formula than the actual prices. If silk went back to 2×50, a third of what it is now, the question becomes if the market can sustain at a new equilibrium after the initial price slump. If that’s in question, how can we flow more silk into the system to make the 3×100 formula more comparable to leather and mithril? That’s closer to the original question at hand.
Alternatively, how do we safely raise leather, which is already in the tank, possibly mithril, a direct-farm material, so that their use and trade is more in line with where silk is already?
From an gold-sink and economic health standpoint, the latter is probably the better approach anyway.* It would promote more even trade through the TP if T5 materials were closer to 1:1, and the trade fees would drink up a fair amount of excess gold.
Of course, option 2 doesn’t really address the numerical imbalance of classes/weights, which is where the suggestion of leather-crafted insignia entered the discussion several pages back. Raises leather, takes the burden off of cloth, pretty much a win-win, once the market re-stabilizes. Still favors metal/heavy overall, but..eh, can’t have everything?

*(Not a Ph.D. in economics. Consult an actual economist for details. If symptoms last longer than 4 hours, discontinue immediately.)

This is good stuff. Tell me more about this. I read somewhere in this thread that leather has a salvage item of each tier more than cloth. Does anyone think that adding one additional for cloth would help bring the two into a better equilibrium? What about removing that one additional for leather? I would think one of those two suggestions would have much less impact than revising the Damask formula.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

What is even more interesting is that people are pretending to be ignorant of Anet knowing about their ingame economics and that they have already addressed this issue and would likely do so again if needed.

Anet makes economic mistakes all the time. Nobody is omniscient

But with what some players see as a mistake, Anet sees as “Working as intended”.

Remember, there’s a reason behind ever decision made in terms of the economy. John doesn’t have the ultimate power to decide on the fate of each item, and the players’ happiness. There are goals lined out by upper management, and John’s job is to make sure that the decisions are implemented properly so as the end result doesn’t deviate from their estimated figures.

The only mistake that I know of John admitting to was with the sheer amount of Bloodstone Dust players farmed. Something about it being 10 digits more than what he expected.

Working as intended, can be a mistake as well, when your intensions were a mistake.

There have been many many mistakes from day one till now. There will be many more.

Mojo Gris Gris.5941:

Celtic Lady.3729:

Obtena.7952:

The only mistake that I know of John admitting to was with the sheer amount of Bloodstone Dust players farmed. Something about it being 10 digits more than what he expected.

Do people really farm bloodstone dust? I’ve got more than 20 stacks of it in my vault and I didn’t farm any of it. I wish I could get rid of it.

That must have happened before the Queensdale train was euthanized.

Well, no, I didn’t really do the whole train thing.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I’d like address this. What you’re doing is highlighting the problem that exists in this game, and many others. People are jealous of success, and look for ways to justify calling TP players terms like “exploiting”, “manipulators”, or “cheaters”.

Yes. Jealous of success. To be honest, I could care less what anyone else has. What irritates me is having to gather crazy amounts of a resource that was cheaply available to everyone and is now out of reach. In another thread someone claimed that ascended gear wasn’t a grind because obsidian shards only took weeks to obtain. I had to laugh, because they clearly had not tried to craft ascended gear recently. If I could dump the million karma into silk the way I can into obsidian shards we wouldn’t even be having this discussion.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Wanze, Vol, and other expert players understand the Demand of certain items, and in turn sells them for a profit to others who are willing to pay their prices.

I don’t begrudge anyone their success in the virtual market. However, I take exception to the idea that every player in the game would be expected to do this in order to acquire their silk in a timely manner.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

What about other players of skill? Yes, we can all be jealous of the SPvP Champions. Their game play is above and beyond what many of us are capable of. But I’ve yet to see anyone call them “cheaters” for knowing how to coordinate map strategies, and team compositions to be the most effective group.

Now you’re completely straw-manning. What do SPvP champions have to do with the cost of silk?

Smooth Penguin.5294:

From a psychological standpoint – The difference here is that being a TP player is much more in reach to nearly everyone, while being an expert PvPer is not. Because everyone has the opportunity to trade on the TP for profit, but don’t make the efforts to do so, they’re really angry at themselves.

This is just plain wrong. Not everyone has the opportunity to trade on the TP for profit. Profit always comes at someone else’s expense. When one player profits another loses. In fact, there’s a 15% net loss to every transaction. That’s the way the system works.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

This anger then manifests outward to the very people they wish to emulate. These people need to take a step back, and focus that negative energy into a positive attempt to learn Wanze’s skills. Learn how to buy low, sell high, and understand breakeven price points so they, too, can make money on the TP.

We are pointing out that the silk requirements for ascended gear are onerous. I don’t know how you are interpreting that as an expression of anger towards people we “wish to emulate.” Personally I don’t wish to emulate any of those people you mentioned. In fact, the point we make time and time again is that we shouldn’t have to emulate those guys who want to treat this game as anything other than a short after-work diversion in order to get our end game gear. The manifesto itself promised that we wouldn’t have to do that, and Colin reiterated that promise just last month. Whatever jealousy you’re perceiving in that argument is all in your mind.

Bernie.8674:

Whatever jealousy you’re perceiving in that argument is all in your mind.

There are people on this forum that handle every instance of someone disagreeing with them by screaming that everyone is just jealous of them. It’s all very kindergarten school-yard. And they don’t seem to realize that their saying it doesn’t actually make it true.

I think they want so badly to believe that someone in the world could possibly be jealous of them, they adhere to the whole philosophy of “If I say it often enough, it’ll be true.” Others just want to feel superior by psychoanalyzing complete strangers online, not realizing that this is always 100% inaccurate.

Ohoni.6057:

And that is true, nobody is saying that it isn’t. The problem is that it’s a part of Tyria that is grossly out of balance with the other parts.

For another example of this, do a search for “Destiny loot cave.” When one part of a game is vastly more rewarding than any other part, that is a balance issue, and it should be corrected. Nobody is arguing that the TP should be removed, or that you shouldn’t be able to make money off of it, but the money you make off the TP should not have the potential to be vastly higher than through any other legitimate ingame means, any more than any one class should provide a hundred times more DPS than any other class without any trade-offs.

If the TP is to be considered “as much a part of Tyria as anything else,” then it needs to be held accountable to the same standards of balance.

You just compared an Apple to yet another Skateboard. The Destiny Loot cave was a Exploit. Also, everything you gained there was newly generated loot that didn’t exist in the game before. TP players are not exploiters or cheaters. They are knowledgeable players who take advantage of other players’ willingness to pay for goods they sell. By your own arguments, the government should balance Apple’s (the company) and Microsoft’s profits with that of my cousin’s start up App company.

Ohoni.6057:

This statement is utter nonsense.

It actually makes perfect sense when you don’t cut out the rest of my quote.

Ohoni.6057:

“And again, none of that “TP profits aren’t a reward because they come from other players” nonsense. If it’s something that you gain that you did not have in your pocket before, then it is a reward to you, regardless of the source.”

This is where you don’t understand the fundamental difference between Rewards and Profits. Newly generated currency in any MMO, if left unchecked, will destroy economies. Currency would be devalued to the point where we’d be paying 50 Gold for 1 Powerful Vial of Blood. Profits from the TP are limited to existing currency in circulation, and the competition in the marketplace. Profits don’t ruin economies, as the TP players are doing a service to the entire population. They

• provide items that other players desire
• help bring prices to equilibrium through competition
• buy goods off of other players, thus spreading the wealth

Now if the game only had 1,000 players, then I’ll admit that a few rich players could control markets. But there are hundreds of thousands of players constantly playing, earning coin through rewards in game, and constantly buying and selling goods online 24/7. The market is so dynamic, that it’s virtually impossible for a small few, or a guild of players to control the market. The Black Lion Trading Company balances itself via player interaction, as it’s not broken.

Bernie.8674:

If I could dump the million karma into silk the way I can into obsidian shards we wouldn’t even be having this discussion.

You can actually. I occassionaly use the karma conversion method, using Danu (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Danu) in sparkfly fen, and the rescuer’s mantle. Buy with karma, drop in MF, salvage, profit.

Bernie.8674:

If I could dump the million karma into silk the way I can into obsidian shards we wouldn’t even be having this discussion.

There exists a way to do this, but it’s not the most efficient way to use your Karma.

Bernie.8674:

I don’t begrudge anyone their success in the virtual market. However, I take exception to the idea that every player in the game would be expected to do this in order to acquire their silk in a timely manner.

Here’s where you problem lies. Anet never made any mention of a required timeframe in which to get your Ascended gear. This BiS gear was meant as a long term goal. Your own desire to get it faster does not translate into a game wide problem.

Bernie.8674:

This is just plain wrong. Not everyone has the opportunity to trade on the TP for profit. Profit always comes at someone else’s expense. When one player profits another loses. In fact, there’s a 15% net loss to every transaction. That’s the way the system works.

A player doesn’t “lose” when they buy something from Wanze. They paid money to get something they wanted. And the 15% tax is a Gold Sink. It’s up to the TP player to price their items smartly to offset the sink. Works the same way in the real world.

And by the way, there are no gates to becoming a TP player. Anyone can do so with the proper understanding of what to buy, when to buy, and how much to sell for.

Bernie.8674:

The manifesto itself promised that we wouldn’t have to do that, and Colin reiterated that promise just last month.

Again, you’re misunderstanding the quote from Colin. He promised no grind for BiS items, and there isn’t any. You have yet to show me where it states that the game “forces” you to get Ascended weapons and/or armor. You’re forcing yourself, because you desire it. I do the same. And when that happens, we the players create the grind. And we the players can’t complain over something we did to ourselves.

At this point, the thread reads like a cross between Das Kapital and Civilization and Its Discontents, but I’m not sure how this actually relates to the price of silk.

I’m definitely going to have to find me one of them there loot caves, though.

Obtena.7952:

What is even more interesting is that people are pretending to be ignorant of Anet knowing about their ingame economics and that they have already addressed this issue and would likely do so again if needed.

I am looking at the tp prices of those mats now (as well as the availability from other sources), and you know what? No, they haven’t addressed it at all.

Ohoni.6057:

Here’s the rest of the quote. Care to address it?

Yes, I did, several pages ago. We’ve already addressed all the potential problems with making this sort of change and come up with solutions to them, so what we’re left with is the “pro: we want this,” vs. “con: . . .”

Maybe your quote style has made it so you missed a few of the cons brought up. I would reread the thread here of I were you. There are plenty.

Mojo Gris Gris.5941:

This is good stuff. Tell me more about this. I read somewhere in this thread that leather has a salvage item of each tier more than cloth. Does anyone think that adding one additional for cloth would help bring the two into a better equilibrium?

From the drop research I have read on this which is a bit outdated and could use a larger sample size, you are correct.

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

What is even more interesting is that people are pretending to be ignorant of Anet knowing about their ingame economics and that they have already addressed this issue and would likely do so again if needed.

Anet makes economic mistakes all the time. Nobody is omniscient

That just reinforces what I said. Anet looked at this has taken action to address this issue over LS2 events.

Astralporing.1957:

Obtena.7952:

What is even more interesting is that people are pretending to be ignorant of Anet knowing about their ingame economics and that they have already addressed this issue and would likely do so again if needed.

I am looking at the tp prices of those mats now (as well as the availability from other sources), and you know what? No, they haven’t addressed it at all.

Oh, let me counter with a rebuttal as equally logical as your argument.

I just looked at them too. I think they have.

Obtena.7952:

Astralporing.1957:

Obtena.7952:

What is even more interesting is that people are pretending to be ignorant of Anet knowing about their ingame economics and that they have already addressed this issue and would likely do so again if needed.

I am looking at the tp prices of those mats now (as well as the availability from other sources), and you know what? No, they haven’t addressed it at all.

Oh, let me counter with a rebuttal as equally logical as your argument.

I just looked at them too. I think they have.

Of course you do. After all, as you have already made clear, you think that there was no problem to address in the first place.

I’m just following your lead. You simply conclude Anet has done nothing by looking at the prices of mats now. I did the same but came to the opposite conclusion. Do you see something missing? I do.

I didn’t say there wasn’t a problem, but I do acknowledge Anet’s approach to addressing it, unlike you.

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

What is even more interesting is that people are pretending to be ignorant of Anet knowing about their ingame economics and that they have already addressed this issue and would likely do so again if needed.

Anet makes economic mistakes all the time. Nobody is omniscient

That just reinforces what I said. Anet looked at this has taken action to address this issue over LS2 events.

the issue is silk inparticular makes it so its unbalanced to obtain ascended armor for some classes.
The only way to fix the issue, with price alone, is if they could get silk to actually be cheaper than leather and mithril (since the amount of silk required is so much higher) no changes they have made have ever achieved that.

The root of the problem is the ascended recipes, If they had to pick a material to be expensive, silk was the wrong one.(with the material requirement increase)

Yes, and I don’t think your acknowledging Anet has taken measures to address this inbalance with silk supply in LS2 events.

Maybe the root of the problem is the recipes and maybe they could change them … it’s happened before. Anet has chosen an alternative approach to deal with it.

Some math on what type of price relationships would create parity withing classes

basically to figure out the relation ship between the prices that would make the t5s roughly equal in cost, you need to solve these equations in terms of S
10800s+900L=7200s+2700l=7500s+1600m

where s = silk scraps
l = leather
m = mithril.
you can solve the first set to figure out what L = in terms of S
then use that to figure out what M = in terms of S

basically you end up with this

2 scraps of silk should cost the same as 1 piece of leather
3.1875 scraps should cost the same as 1 piece of mithril.

so basically the prices are all wrong, mathematically.

now, in the streets, its not so simple, because not all materials are as easy to get as others, even considering that, the design is still messed up, the item that is the most required should be the easiest to get, but its actually not.

if they could get prices to be around a 1:2:3 ratio silk:leather:mithril, then they would have solved the issue just with lack of parity in t5 prices

of course that would only solve it monetarilly, there are still other issues, like just having to aquire more materials/how difficult it is to get said materials, time gate imbalance

Still i think it would be better not to solve it with just prices, but create a more balanced recipe design, like has been suggested previously, as well as a more elastic supply

I’ll just leave this little tidbit here to help everyone:

John Smith.4610:

We design in some volatility and some stability (silk wasn’t an accident ). We use our past experience, mixed with data to make predictions of what will happen given our choices. We then select outcomes that match whatever goals we have and use the data/experience to match those outcomes. We’ve gotten surprisingly good at this, but if we do make a mistake, the robustness of the player market helps smooth any bumps. For example, at one point a long time ago, we had an ecto exploit with snowflakes. This exploit produced a decent amount of ectos and put them into the market, but the market absorbed that and return to normal in a very short period of time.

As for mistakes, it seems that if any are made, TP players help correct them.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I’ll just leave this little tidbit here to help everyone:

John Smith.4610:

We design in some volatility and some stability (silk wasn’t an accident ). We use our past experience, mixed with data to make predictions of what will happen given our choices. We then select outcomes that match whatever goals we have and use the data/experience to match those outcomes. We’ve gotten surprisingly good at this, but if we do make a mistake, the robustness of the player market helps smooth any bumps. For example, at one point a long time ago, we had an ecto exploit with snowflakes. This exploit produced a decent amount of ectos and put them into the market, but the market absorbed that and return to normal in a very short period of time.

As for mistakes, it seems that if any are made, TP players help correct them.

the tp players dont correct mistakes, what he means is if a mistake is made, AND then fixed, the market will quickly adapt to the new equilibrium.

As for his silk price, its fine in a vacuum, but its not fine withing the design of ascended.
if clothcraft didnt require 10800 silk scraps, its cost of 2-3 silver would be fine. (even though it means the costs of a whole bunch of other items are relatively wrong)

This thread is more about the disparities of silk aquisition as its related to crafting ascended armor.