Guild Wars 2

Seeing as my immersion in MMOs can’t compare to the immersion in a single player RPG or a good book, said MMO may as well amuse me – seeing how I have to deal with enough ‘seriousness’ in my real life.
Also, I like to laugh.

Its interesting the OP talks about Killroy as a later addition "as the game matured " seeing as Killroy was there nearly from the beginning of the series . The fact of the matter is that Guild wars has always had comedy in it . Other examples might be Eve’s pet skull named Adam or Oink in the mission Gates of Kryta

Frotee.2634:

Seeing as my immersion in MMOs can’t compare to the immersion in a single player RPG or a good book, said MMO may as well amuse me – seeing how I have to deal with enough ‘seriousness’ in my real life.
Also, I like to laugh.

It’s childish comedy, not adult comedy.

I’m sure no one would complain if they added funny things that adults would laugh at. It’s like Star Wars episode 1 style comedy with Jar Jar Binks. It’s goofy and childish. Walt Disney does a very good job making stories where adults and childen both laugh. Their jokes target multiple demographics.

The story telling so far has been a joke and while the game could be called ‘goofy’ it has it has a good feeling to it. It is a very beautiful and relaxing game, but there are rarely any characters and memories that stick to you for very long. If the game provides more memorable personal experiences that foster an attachment to a specific character or place, Tyria will be a much better place. March I’m looking at you, you better not disappoint!

On a side note :

Destiny’s Edge in the game is very very different from the one in the book. Most characters in the game are very static and unlikable (furries excluded).

Ebonhawk ? Who said Ebonhawk? Best place to be in the game! This area has nostalgia for GW1. Good events, really heroic events. Saving NPCs that actually have attachments to other NPCs and events that make sense in the story of the area as a whole while not being fetch, press F to win and kill 10 rabbits. Even if static this area has character, character that killing boars in Queensdale, stomping trash and killing risen don’t provide.

Obsidian.1328:

What I got was a cutesy, hand-holding, Disney world that is obviously catering to a new, younger audience. Stuffed-Quaggan backpacks, Princess doll mini’s, a Rainbow&Unicorn shooting bow…?

Had I known the game was going to be so teensy, I probably wouldn’t have bought it.

Well put!
I choose any path in the game that keeps me as far away from Asura as possible, they’re like a constant gag reel and the butt of any joke whenever I see them in an event, personal story or just stupid NPCs cracking wise kitten jokes…
Story has been so dumbed down and is now at a point where it is so teensy that if I’d been aware before, I probably would’ve stayed away from the game too.

And, lastly, the gem store is screaming for name change contracts to complement the total makeover kits- and instead plush backpacks with effin quaggans and charrs get added… another gag instead of something truly useful!

Dondarrion.2748:

And, lastly, the gem store is screaming for name change contracts to complement the total makeover kits- and instead plush backpacks with effin quaggans and charrs get added… another gag instead of something truly useful!

This ^

A name changer is a must, and it’s sad to see that the whole Qauggan thing being pushed too far :/

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

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Captain Tervelan: Of course you’re still alive. Should’ve known a few centaurs couldn’t kill the “Hero of Shaemoor.” They’re your specialty, after all, right?

<Character>: I know what happened to Falcon Company, Tervelan. How could you give them up to the centaurs? How could you betray their trust like that?

Captain Tervelan: I didn’t want to do it. My soldiers were starving, our equipment was ruined…I had to do something or the centaurs would have killed us all.

Captain Tervelan: So, yeah, I sold out Falcon Company so that some politician could say the queen was a bad ruler. But the rest of my command lived.

Captain Tervelan: I got funds to reequip my soldiers, munitions, decent rations, and a promotion. My command’s killed more centaurs than the rest of the Seraph combined—thanks to Falcon Company’s sacrifice.

<Character>: And all it cost was one company of your fellow soldiers. You’re not an officer, you’re a greedy, lowlife thug. And you’ll pay for what you’ve done.

Captain Tervelan: You and Bigsby… If you hadn’t dug so deep, you both could’ve done a lot to help us. All of us. But now you’ll just be ettin food. Bigsby may be already.

Captain Tervelan: This gate should hold you all in. I’m sorry it came to this. Good-bye, “Hero.” When you meet her, tell your sister I said hello.

I’m sure this is very goofy and not at all serious

Lol, actually I did find it rather humorous. It had an odd Scooby Do-esqueness to it. “You meddling kids!! This Ettin will take care of you!” <walks off without checking to see if they actually get killed>

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

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Captain Tervelan: Of course you’re still alive. Should’ve known a few centaurs couldn’t kill the “Hero of Shaemoor.” They’re your specialty, after all, right?

<Character>: I know what happened to Falcon Company, Tervelan. How could you give them up to the centaurs? How could you betray their trust like that?

Captain Tervelan: I didn’t want to do it. My soldiers were starving, our equipment was ruined…I had to do something or the centaurs would have killed us all.

Captain Tervelan: So, yeah, I sold out Falcon Company so that some politician could say the queen was a bad ruler. But the rest of my command lived.

Captain Tervelan: I got funds to reequip my soldiers, munitions, decent rations, and a promotion. My command’s killed more centaurs than the rest of the Seraph combined—thanks to Falcon Company’s sacrifice.

<Character>: And all it cost was one company of your fellow soldiers. You’re not an officer, you’re a greedy, lowlife thug. And you’ll pay for what you’ve done.

Captain Tervelan: You and Bigsby… If you hadn’t dug so deep, you both could’ve done a lot to help us. All of us. But now you’ll just be ettin food. Bigsby may be already.

Captain Tervelan: This gate should hold you all in. I’m sorry it came to this. Good-bye, “Hero.” When you meet her, tell your sister I said hello.

I’m sure this is very goofy and not at all serious

What actually happens in that is pretty serious but the way it is told (dialog and voice acting) makes it into a funny little scene you cant take seriously :P

Wayfinder.8452:

The story telling so far has been a joke and while the game could be called ‘goofy’ it has it has a good feeling to it. It is a very beautiful and relaxing game, but there are rarely any characters and memories that stick to you for very long. If the game provides more memorable personal experiences that foster an attachment to a specific character or place, Tyria will be a much better place. March I’m looking at you, you better not disappoint!

On a side note :

Destiny’s Edge in the game is very very different from the one in the book. Most characters in the game are very static and unlikable (furries excluded).

Ebonhawk ? Who said Ebonhawk? Best place to be in the game! This area has nostalgia for GW1. Good events, really heroic events. Saving NPCs that actually have attachments to other NPCs and events that make sense in the story of the area as a whole while not being fetch, press F to win and kill 10 rabbits. Even if static this area has character, character that killing boars in Queensdale, stomping trash and killing risen don’t provide.

Disagree…

I resent that ANet tries to force me into a moral corner I don’t agree with at all. Killing random locals because they don’t want to give up the fight against the Charr is unfathomable. Save your particular brand of righteousness for yourself, ANet, and don’t try to tell me what you think passes for moral integrity these days.

I thought I would love the area…but it’s not what I thought it would be like at all. I was expecting this last defiant bastion of Ascalonian descendants…what I got was a sad, grey, beaten town who can’t even remember what they were fighting for.

Obsidian.1328:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

Captain Tervelan: Of course you’re still alive. Should’ve known a few centaurs couldn’t kill the “Hero of Shaemoor.” They’re your specialty, after all, right?

<Character>: I know what happened to Falcon Company, Tervelan. How could you give them up to the centaurs? How could you betray their trust like that?

Captain Tervelan: I didn’t want to do it. My soldiers were starving, our equipment was ruined…I had to do something or the centaurs would have killed us all.

Captain Tervelan: So, yeah, I sold out Falcon Company so that some politician could say the queen was a bad ruler. But the rest of my command lived.

Captain Tervelan: I got funds to reequip my soldiers, munitions, decent rations, and a promotion. My command’s killed more centaurs than the rest of the Seraph combined—thanks to Falcon Company’s sacrifice.

<Character>: And all it cost was one company of your fellow soldiers. You’re not an officer, you’re a greedy, lowlife thug. And you’ll pay for what you’ve done.

Captain Tervelan: You and Bigsby… If you hadn’t dug so deep, you both could’ve done a lot to help us. All of us. But now you’ll just be ettin food. Bigsby may be already.

Captain Tervelan: This gate should hold you all in. I’m sorry it came to this. Good-bye, “Hero.” When you meet her, tell your sister I said hello.

I’m sure this is very goofy and not at all serious

Lol, actually I did find it rather humorous. It had an odd Scooby Do-esqueness to it. “You meddling kids!! This Ettin will take care of you!” <walks off without checking to see if they actually get killed>

A lot of it is also in the presentation, with the pretty water-color backdrops and characters mostly just standing there with their arms gently waving as if adrift in a serene ocean of peace and tranquility.

Obsidian.1328:

Tobias
Lol, so angry.

You haven’t seen me angry yet, mostly because I reserve getting angry for much more interesting discussions than this.

So Malomedes was experimented on by Inquest. Ok. And? Does he talk about it? Do we know what happened? Is he psychologically messed up from it? Does he say something vague and dour in an English accent then walk away with his head down? I don’t know where you’re going with this part.

That it’s not silly and goofy.

I’m sure the Charr story you linked is all rough&tough, just like how they treat everyone else on the planet. That’s their schtick. The Charr are ANet’s answer to those players looking for a “tough-guy” race to play. It’s hilarious that they call humans “meat” all the time, but it’s difficult to take any of their bravado seriously.

They call them “meat”, and “mouse” like in the original. Because that’s what they were to charr. Now it’s a matter of reminding the humans “Sure, we have a truce. But I can still take you out if you step out of line”.

And I find it very easy to take a race with armored vehicles and artillery serious. I don’t know about you.

First of all, Logan is too much of a pansy to demand anything from Rytlock, honestly, the Charr would tear him to pieces. Secondly, as a supposed descendant of Gwen and Kieran, the right thing to do from his perspective is to return it to the Ascalonians in Nebo or Ebonhawke.
Eir: “Oh look Logan…it’s your people’s royal heirloom, a symbol of your kingdom’s former glory!”
Logan: “Nah, let Rytlock keep it…he impressed me. Oh we found Magdaer too? Meh, let’s just use it to buy peace…I mean, we should feel really bad anyway for the Foefire causing them so much trouble now, back when they nearly exterminated us with glee.” -_-

I can see you didn’t pay attention. But that’s okay, most of that happened outside of Guild Wars 2 (a legitimate gripe, we don’t get to hear about that except for after the fact).
The thing about the Foefire being dispelled is only a legend. We have not seen any proof it’s true. We do know that Logan told Rytlock he could keep it when they were both close friends in Destiny’s Edge.

I really never cared enough for the details of DE I guess.

That much is obvious.
Logan’s departure caused the plan formulated for six people with Glint to have to be attempted with five. Because Eir insisted “we can still do this guys”. And no, sorry Eir, you lost the guardian, you group is toast. So that’s why Zojja snarks at Eir and Logan (more quietly at Logan though), and why Rytlock keeps calling him a coward.

It’s not something GW1 humans would ever do,

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Tengu_Accords

So this must never have happened?

Tobias

It’s purpose was ineffectual then. So a Sylvari no one has a connection to got experimented on by some evil Asura. And he’s sad about it. Is that it? If ANet wants us to feel empathy for Malomedes, they should probably think about endearing him to the audience first.

“Sure, we have a truce. But I can still take you out if you step out of line”. See, that’s the b.s. part. It’s like the Charr are being somehow magnanimous and condescending at the same time. It’s interesting how ANet tries so hard recast the Charr into the role the humans formerly had. And no, I don’t take them seriously…the tanks and mortars are so wrong and out of place in this game no one should even have to remark on it.

How can I pay attention to something that wasn’t in the game? lol And I didn’t mention anything about the legitimacy of the Foefire being dispelled, only that Magdaer might be a peace offering.

I don’t care for the DE aspect of the game because it doesn’t engage me in the least. I hardly think I’m alone in that.

And…are you really comparing the Tengu to the Charr? Really? The Tengu of GW1 at least displayed some aspects of civility and nobility. The GW1 Charr were just mongrels. Did the Tengu ever try to commit mass genocide on your species? Or burn your fellow countrymen/women alive? Or nuke your land into a poisonous wasteland? And not express an ounce of regret for it? No? Well then perhaps they are mature enough to warrant a peace deal.

Obsidian.1328:

“Sure, we have a truce. But I can still take you out if you step out of line”. See, that’s the b.s. part. It’s like the Charr are being somehow magnanimous and condescending at the same time. It’s interesting how ANet tries so hard recast the Charr into the role the humans formerly had. And no, I don’t take them seriously…the tanks and mortars are so wrong and out of place in this game no one should even have to remark on it.

Except the first game, 250 years earlier, had black powder and the Stone Summit had clearly been attempting to advance weapon design on their own. When you have black powder, it’s not long before you can advance to guns and rifles, and from there to cannons.

Edit: Actually, guns and rifles would follow from cannons just as easily. Getting something like a cannon smaller is a more impressive feat I think. Point being that black powder is going to lead into other applications. The charr got there because the asura and humans have powerful enough magic to think of that first and mechanical effects second, while the sylvari and norn don’t care.

How can I pay attention to something that wasn’t in the game? lol And I didn’t mention anything about the legitimacy of the Foefire being dispelled, only that Magdaer might be a peace offering.

This is why I said you didn’t pay attention. Magdaer can’t be made a peace offering, that’s the sword King Adelbern broke to start the Foefire. Sohothin was the sword of Rurik.

I don’t care for the DE aspect of the game because it doesn’t engage me in the least. I hardly think I’m alone in that.

No, no you’re not alone in that. It didn’t quite click with me either. I blame Zojja.

And…are you really comparing the Tengu to the Charr? Really? The Tengu of GW1 at least displayed some aspects of civility and nobility. The GW1 Charr were just mongrels. Did the Tengu ever try to commit mass genocide on your species? Or burn your fellow countrymen/women alive? Or nuke your land into a poisonous wasteland? And not express an ounce of regret for it? No? Well then perhaps they are mature enough to warrant a peace deal.

And yet . . . Pyre Fierceshot.

And yet . . . The Tengu Was

I am comparing the tengu to the charr, because you don’t need to have nobility to have a truce or peace. And the charr are civilized, but it’s not the same civilization as humans. It’s different.

Obsidian.1328:

Tobias

It’s purpose was ineffectual then. So a Sylvari no one has a connection to got experimented on by some evil Asura. And he’s sad about it. Is that it? If ANet wants us to feel empathy for Malomedes, they should probably think about endearing him to the audience first.

“Sure, we have a truce. But I can still take you out if you step out of line”. See, that’s the b.s. part. It’s like the Charr are being somehow magnanimous and condescending at the same time. It’s interesting how ANet tries so hard recast the Charr into the role the humans formerly had. And no, I don’t take them seriously…the tanks and mortars are so wrong and out of place in this game no one should even have to remark on it.

How can I pay attention to something that wasn’t in the game? lol And I didn’t mention anything about the legitimacy of the Foefire being dispelled, only that Magdaer might be a peace offering.

I don’t care for the DE aspect of the game because it doesn’t engage me in the least. I hardly think I’m alone in that.

And…are you really comparing the Tengu to the Charr? Really? The Tengu of GW1 at least displayed some aspects of civility and nobility. The GW1 Charr were just mongrels. Did the Tengu ever try to commit mass genocide on your species? Or burn your fellow countrymen/women alive? Or nuke your land into a poisonous wasteland? And not express an ounce of regret for it? No? Well then perhaps they are mature enough to warrant a peace deal.

Both the charr and humans of GW1 were warmongers. Both commited acts of genocide upon one another, and themselves. Where Khlibron sank Orr and the Mantle enslaved Kryta and sacrificed people atop Bloodstones, the Flame Legion and the Shaman caste did the same thing to anyone who stepped out of line.

By the time we got around to Eye of the North, and we saw the same Shining-Blade style rebellion take place with Pyre and his followers, the only cultural division that really remained (in continental Tyria at least) was that the player characters were human.

Tobias

If we’re going to get all realistic here about tech, then there’s no reason the Charr would be the only only ones with war machines. The “no gods keeping them preoccupied” argument doesn’t cut it. If there were such a huge advantage out there in the world like tanks and helicopters, the humans and Asura would be just as interested in that as the Charr, despite having magic. The Norn and Sylvari, not caring for tech as you say, would eventually die off in a “real world” scenario. My point was contextual to the original game setting, not real life possibilities. If Tyria was held up to a reality check, the Charr would have overran everyone else ages ago. In GW2 they are bigger, stronger, feral, and hold all the “tech” cards, so to speak.

Both of the swords could potentially be made a peace offering, does the legend specify if that the sword can’t be broken? At any rate, why would Eir seek to reforge it at all then, personal use? -_-

Pyre is more GW2 than 1…it’s fairly obvious EotN is much more the prelude to this game, and not a coherent expansion to GW1.

I don’t see how the Tengu link you pasted makes them similar to Charr at all, find better evidence.

You’re right, you don’t need nobility to know peace, but it’s a heckuva lot easier to deal with one who has it isn’t it? And the GW1 Charr were not civilized in any demonstrable way at all. That’s just silly-talk.

Safer Saviour.9685:

Obsidian.1328:

Tobias

It’s purpose was ineffectual then. So a Sylvari no one has a connection to got experimented on by some evil Asura. And he’s sad about it. Is that it? If ANet wants us to feel empathy for Malomedes, they should probably think about endearing him to the audience first.

“Sure, we have a truce. But I can still take you out if you step out of line”. See, that’s the b.s. part. It’s like the Charr are being somehow magnanimous and condescending at the same time. It’s interesting how ANet tries so hard recast the Charr into the role the humans formerly had. And no, I don’t take them seriously…the tanks and mortars are so wrong and out of place in this game no one should even have to remark on it.

How can I pay attention to something that wasn’t in the game? lol And I didn’t mention anything about the legitimacy of the Foefire being dispelled, only that Magdaer might be a peace offering.

I don’t care for the DE aspect of the game because it doesn’t engage me in the least. I hardly think I’m alone in that.

And…are you really comparing the Tengu to the Charr? Really? The Tengu of GW1 at least displayed some aspects of civility and nobility. The GW1 Charr were just mongrels. Did the Tengu ever try to commit mass genocide on your species? Or burn your fellow countrymen/women alive? Or nuke your land into a poisonous wasteland? And not express an ounce of regret for it? No? Well then perhaps they are mature enough to warrant a peace deal.

Both the charr and humans of GW1 were warmongers. Both commited acts of genocide upon one another, and themselves. Where Khlibron sank Orr and the Mantle enslaved Kryta and sacrificed people atop Bloodstones, the Flame Legion and the Shaman caste did the same thing to anyone who stepped out of line.

By the time we got around to Eye of the North, and we saw the same Shining-Blade style rebellion take place with Pyre and his followers, the only cultural division that really remained (in continental Tyria at least) was that the player characters were human.

They were both militaristic yes, but humans were never genocidal. Khlibron wasn’t necessarily trying to exterminate all the humans, he was just evil, and one man. And the Mantle were slavers, not mass murderers. “Harvesting” the handful of chosen for their souls does not a genocide make.

The Flame Legion/Shaman Caste overlord thing was an invention of EotN to allow for social disparity within the Charr themselves. Without that distinction, Pyre’s rebellion would not be believable. That distinction had no appreciable existence before EotN.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

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Captain Tervelan: Of course you’re still alive. Should’ve known a few centaurs couldn’t kill the “Hero of Shaemoor.” They’re your specialty, after all, right?

<Character>: I know what happened to Falcon Company, Tervelan. How could you give them up to the centaurs? How could you betray their trust like that?

Captain Tervelan: I didn’t want to do it. My soldiers were starving, our equipment was ruined…I had to do something or the centaurs would have killed us all.

Captain Tervelan: So, yeah, I sold out Falcon Company so that some politician could say the queen was a bad ruler. But the rest of my command lived.

Captain Tervelan: I got funds to reequip my soldiers, munitions, decent rations, and a promotion. My command’s killed more centaurs than the rest of the Seraph combined—thanks to Falcon Company’s sacrifice.

<Character>: And all it cost was one company of your fellow soldiers. You’re not an officer, you’re a greedy, lowlife thug. And you’ll pay for what you’ve done.

Captain Tervelan: You and Bigsby… If you hadn’t dug so deep, you both could’ve done a lot to help us. All of us. But now you’ll just be ettin food. Bigsby may be already.

Captain Tervelan: This gate should hold you all in. I’m sorry it came to this. Good-bye, “Hero.” When you meet her, tell your sister I said hello.

This certainly is NOT a way adults would talk. This is rather poorly written and even worse executed. Its’ impossible for me to take it seriously.

And we aren’t even touching asuras and the way they are presented, their dialogue and general behaviour.

Obsidian.1328:

Tobias
If we’re going to get all realistic here about tech, then there’s no reason the Charr would be the only only ones with war machines. The “no gods keeping them preoccupied” argument doesn’t cut it. If there were such a huge advantage out there in the world like tanks and helicopters, the humans and Asura would be just as interested in that as the Charr, despite having magic.

No, it does cut it. I’ll explain why shortly.

The Norn and Sylvari, not caring for tech as you say, would eventually die off in a “real world” scenario.

They don’t care for that sort of technology. They’re not interested in war machines or better tools for killing people. The norn do not care for warfare in the same fashion as charr or humans. Norn do not (with one notable exception) form armies in a way the charr or humans do. They revere the world and respect it. They would not die off in a “real world” scenario, mostly because we still have cultures like that today.

The sylvari don’t care for the tech because they can adapt plants to function in similar fashions. They have no need of iron or steel, or gunpowder. They also are very young and are still finding their footing. There’s not much point to going into whether or not they’d survive in the “real world” since they couldn’t exist anyway.

The asura don’t have an interest in the charr war machines because they prize elegance over force. Also, they’re fiercely independent thinkers whose egos do not cope well with an organized army so . . . no, they would much rather make golems to do that for them. It worked in the past beautifully, after all, and is a sound and proven theory.

Now we get to the humans. Humanity in Tyria has always had powerful and potent magic, and has never had to rely on technology over mysticism. They are dying out because of this. They turn to magic instinctively as an answer instead of technology because that’s what they know, that’s what they trust . . . the Six, magic, and things outside themselves.

So what makes the charr special? Until the Flame Legion was overthrown, they’ve used magic just like humanity does. But when that legion was discredited, and “there are no gods for the charr” became the rallying cry? They turned to things they built, managed, and could understand better than blindly trusting magic. Sure, they still use magic, but they trust in iron. Like humanity uses iron but they trust in the Gods.

That’s why the charr are so innovative as to make war machines like tanks and artillery. And if you looked behind the curtain, it’s not good for them either – they are driven to fight by the culture, and it means they need one enemy after another to turn to before they turn inward on themselves.

(And as a note, humanity beat them to that point. See the White Mantle for examples.)

— more

My point was contextual to the original game setting, not real life possibilities. If Tyria was held up to a reality check, the Charr would have overran everyone else ages ago. In GW2 they are bigger, stronger, feral, and hold all the “tech” cards, so to speak.

If this was the real world, ninety percent of the game wouldn’t be possible let alone plausible. The rules of this world and the way it developed cannot be fully applied to Tyria because the reasoning behind the rules is fundamentally different. Magic is real in Tyria, and it is not out here. Things which work in Tyria would NEVER work by our rules.

And yes, the charr would have overrun everyone else ages ago. And we would have called them Saxons. Or Monguls. Or Romans. Most possibly Romans.

Both of the swords could potentially be made a peace offering, does the legend specify if that the sword can’t be broken? At any rate, why would Eir seek to reforge it at all then, personal use? -_-

Pay attention to what she says. She wants to give it to Logan. Or, as I inferred (and yes, this is just my inference, not fact) . . . she wants Rylock to reforge it so Eir can give it to Logan. A peace offering, something of value traded to try to smooth over a disagreement. This is the way the norn think.

Pyre is more GW2 than 1…it’s fairly obvious EotN is much more the prelude to this game, and not a coherent expansion to GW1.

It’s a coherent expansion to GW1, and it works quite well. It’s moving away from a stagnant story which wasn’t progressing in favor of the world moving on.

Though if anything is more “Guild Wars 2” in the original, you can claim it’s Abaddon. A big bad evil force that corrupts everything it touches and twists it into mockeries of what used to be? Check.

I don’t see how the Tengu link you pasted makes them similar to Charr at all, find better evidence.

You’re not looking close enough. You’re reading, but you’re not comprehending. The Tengu Wars between tengu and the humans . . . and the Pre-Searing struggle between the charr and humans . . . are directly similar. Both sides are in the wrong, both sides have done atrocities such as wholesale slaughter, and then decided peace was a better option.

And in both cases, there are fragments of all three races who continue to fight and attack the other despite peace being given.

You’re right, you don’t need nobility to know peace, but it’s a heckuva lot easier to deal with one who has it isn’t it? And the GW1 Charr were not civilized in any demonstrable way at all. That’s just silly-talk.

No, that’s dangerously close to infractable territory for me to discuss since I’d need to dip into real world examples here. What it comes down to is the question “how do you define civilization”?

Obsidian.1328:

They were both militaristic yes, but humans were never genocidal. Khlibron wasn’t necessarily trying to exterminate all the humans, he was just evil, and one man. And the Mantle were slavers, not mass murderers. “Harvesting” the handful of chosen for their souls does not a genocide make.

The Flame Legion/Shaman Caste overlord thing was an invention of EotN to allow for social disparity within the Charr themselves. Without that distinction, Pyre’s rebellion would not be believable. That distinction had no appreciable existence before EotN.

Humans sought to murder all the charr and seize the charr homelands (Ascalon) due to some misplaced belief in Manifest Destiny. That’s genocide. Also, let’s take a moment to wave to the Ministry of Purity over there.

As for the Flame Legion/Shaman Caste being an invention of EotN, that’s utterly not true. At the very least, the Shaman Caste was present in the early missions of Prophecies. The dominance of the Flame Legion was highlighted/emphasised much more in EotN, but it didn’t contradict any pre-existing lore, merely expanded upon it. It was believable, and no less ‘dark’ than anything else in GW1 due to the subjugation tactics employed.

leman.7682:

This certainly is NOT a way adults would talk. This is rather poorly written and even worse executed. Its’ impossible for me to take it seriously.

And we aren’t even touching asuras and the way they are presented, their dialogue and general behaviour.

I didn’t ask if it was perfectly executed dialogue. Frankly, it’s rare to find a work of fiction which makes dialogue seem natural. I’ve seen seasoned directors who make dialogue seem forced, and good actors otherwise make lines which should be natural and flowing come out badly. There are authors who are otherwise very good at writing things that just plain don’t come off “right” in dialogue. J.R.R. Tolkien is one such author, due to the prose being very purple.

Also, I know many adults who talk in ways FAR worse than this, and have at least six of them working not ten feet from my desk right now. I have at least one for whom profanity is . . . to borrow a phrase . . . more punctuation than epithet. It is “impossible” for me to take them seriously, too.

However, the situation here isn’t played for laughs, it isn’t goofy in a Disney . . . wait, I’m remembering “Sleeping Beauty” and “The Black Cauldron” so I can’t finish that in good conscience.

Safer Saviour.9685:

As for the Flame Legion/Shaman Caste being an invention of EotN, that’s utterly not true. At the very least, the Shaman Caste was present in the early missions of Prophecies. The dominance of the Flame Legion was highlighted/emphasised much more in EotN, but it didn’t contradict any pre-existing lore, merely expanded upon it. It was believable, and no less ‘dark’ than anything else in GW1 due to the subjugation tactics employed.

Dip into extended quests in the Realm of Torment, and you’ll find a charr who wants to meet his “gods”, the titans. It goes about as well as you expect.

Take a look at your map, at the Ascalon area. Count all the threats the Charr have on their borders and within them. Flame legion, the Brand, ghosts of Ascalon. Now, what if they hadn’t made peace with humans and the norn (they tried to expand their realm into Shiverpeaks once, but were stopped by the Norn, who could each take on 10 charr from lore viewpoint)? Hardly possible for them to conquer all of Tyria in that situation.

Also, as I said before, from lore viewpoint, a single norn hero far surpasses the soldiers of the other races. They also live on mountains, and the sylvari live in a jungle. Neither is a good place roll around in tanks, don’t you think? Now, Kryta might be a possible to conquer with war machines, but the Charr would have to cross the Shiverpeaks, the northern part inhabited by the minions of Jormag, and were they to take the sea route (which they would have to fight through the Brand area to reach), they’d be faced with countless of undead ships.

In short, the charr wouldn’t be able to take on all of Tyria in the current situation.

Tobius

Good, we agree making references to real-world physical limitations is disingenuous when discussing in-game technology and the ramifications thereof.

Uhh…if she gave it to Rytlock, why would he not try to see if the legend is true then. I highly doubt, given the opportunity, Rytlock and the Charr would pass on a chance, however scant it may be, to rid Ascalon of the ghosts. Their on-and-off friendship pales in comparison to that.

EotN isn’t a coherent expansion, and it doesn’t work quite well. The various cultures of the humans back then(Krytan, Canthan, Vabbi, etc) serve the exact same purpose the playable races do now. NCSoft, and maybe ANet but I doubt it at first, was just too scared over losing a bit of sales over people being slightly offended over some vague similarities to real-world cultures(see forum Canthan thread). So they come up with these stereotypical races to provide the “flavors” the original cultures had.

Asura = cute, snarky gnomes
Norn = vikings(nord, nordic…they didn’t even try to hide this one)
Sylvari = wood elves(sylvan…)
Charr = idk…badboy steampunk lions??

The Tengu wars and the Searing are not the same by any means. What the heck did the humans do to deserve all of this, push the Charr a little farther north? It wasn’t even their homeland to begin with, they were nomadic. You’re reaching here.

And civilization? Hmm, well I’ll just pull this definition off of the net to save time: An advanced state of intellectual, cultural, and material development in [human] society, marked by progress in the arts and sciences, the extensive use of record-keeping, including writing, and the appearance of complex political and social institutions.

^ But again, that has some real-world nuances to it that might not relate here. But you get the jist. No race really fits that definition to a tee in GW, but it should be easy enough to make certain distinctions in lieu of that.

Obsidian.1328:

Charr = idk…badboy steampunk lions??

They are anthropomorphic moo cats. With four ears. Quadraphonic hearing.

Safer Saviour.9685:

Obsidian.1328:

They were both militaristic yes, but humans were never genocidal. Khlibron wasn’t necessarily trying to exterminate all the humans, he was just evil, and one man. And the Mantle were slavers, not mass murderers. “Harvesting” the handful of chosen for their souls does not a genocide make.

The Flame Legion/Shaman Caste overlord thing was an invention of EotN to allow for social disparity within the Charr themselves. Without that distinction, Pyre’s rebellion would not be believable. That distinction had no appreciable existence before EotN.

Humans sought to murder all the charr and seize the charr homelands (Ascalon) due to some misplaced belief in Manifest Destiny. That’s genocide. Also, let’s take a moment to wave to the Ministry of Purity over there.

As for the Flame Legion/Shaman Caste being an invention of EotN, that’s utterly not true. At the very least, the Shaman Caste was present in the early missions of Prophecies. The dominance of the Flame Legion was highlighted/emphasised much more in EotN, but it didn’t contradict any pre-existing lore, merely expanded upon it. It was believable, and no less ‘dark’ than anything else in GW1 due to the subjugation tactics employed.

Show me where it says the humans were trying to eradicate all the Charr and conquer the entirety of Ascalon for that purpose.

The early Proph missions don’t really mention the shamans as part of a caste system. All the Charr bosses you fought there, even during Glint’s Titan quests, were representative of the various classes(ele, mez, warrior, etc). The Flame Keepers were there during the Surmia mission, but their job was just to guard the fire at the Flame Alter. There isn’t any overt evidence to suggest they were guiding the whole Charr army. If anything, the generals, like Bonfaaz Burntfur, were doing all of the leading.

I personally find the diversity message a bit overbearing. After finishing a story mission, some character will make an effort to drive home that message. It’s nauseating. Especially when everyone has already come together, we’ve already put aside our differences. It’d be nice to feel more tension or more depth – anything besides the persistence mantra of togetherness.

Furthermore, forcing players into one side creates a missed opportunity. We can’t play the Flame Legion, Inquest, etc.. Our roleplaying is limited by this design choice. Personally, I’d love to play a separatist human and try to oust the Charr.

Obsidian.1328:

Tobias
Good, we agree making references to real-world physical limitations is disingenuous when discussing in-game technology and the ramifications thereof.

This is a lot of big words. I’d also add though, that Tyria has the “advantage” of not having the religious, geographic, cultural diverity we have here on Earth. You may, of course, use that to nail the writers on making bad fiction or whatever, but there is no way they can realistically approximate even half the cultures of the world alive now much less emulate dead ones . . . for which we have only potentially inaccurate historical representations of.

(Remember, history is written by those who survived.)

We also have real, tangible interactions with the Six Gods, the Spirits of the Wild, and other beings which cannot possibly exist in real life. Technology which should work in Tyria follows different rules, most notably asura tech which relies on rules that magic energy follows rather than simply electromagnetic fields and particle acceleration. Charr tech on the other hand, is based on fundamental physical rules such as physics and chemistry.

Translation: “The real world is not Tyria, but something which works in the real world would probably also work in Tyria.”

Uhh…if she gave it to Rytlock, why would he not try to see if the legend is true then. I highly doubt, given the opportunity, Rytlock and the Charr would pass on a chance, however scant it may be, to rid Ascalon of the ghosts. Their on-and-off friendship pales in comparison to that.

You’ll note that the first time Rytlock steps into the presence of King Adelbern, the king’s ghost thinks Rurik is there . . . which he knows is impossible. Rytlock flatly just goes “no, he’s dead, your kingdom is dead, and I hate your silly hat”. Okay, not exactly that, but whatever

EotN isn’t a coherent expansion, and it doesn’t work quite well. The various cultures of the humans back then(Krytan, Canthan, Vabbi, etc) serve the exact same purpose the playable races do now. NCSoft, and maybe ANet but I doubt it at first, was just too scared over losing a bit of sales over people being slightly offended over some vague similarities to real-world cultures(see forum Canthan thread). So they come up with these stereotypical races to provide the “flavors” the original cultures had.

It’s important to note something here, and I’m only going to say it once in this thread.

Stereotypes, cliches, and tropes aren’t bad as a starting point to work from. Frankly, the stereotypes, cliches, and tropes used to build the five current races are enough to make them feel more than flat. I say that even though I cannot stand the asura and want to punt Zojja off an airship. Into Mount Malestrom.

But they are more than “a race based entirely off of Brain”. And there is more to the charr than “Rawr, meat! Blood! Battle!”. They have their own sense of honor, dignity, and respect.

— more

The Tengu wars and the Searing are not the same by any means.

I said the Pre-Searing conflict, specifically because the Searing was SO MUCH a game-changer on all sides it defies any analogy inside Tyria beyond the Jade Wind . . . and even THAT didn’t come close to how badly the Searing screwed up Tyria. (The continent, not the world.)

What the heck did the humans do to deserve all of this, push the Charr a little farther north? It wasn’t even their homeland to begin with, they were nomadic. You’re reaching here.

And you’re projecting. I didn’t say anything about whether or not it was their homeland, or that the humans deserved this. You were the one who said:

The peacetalks have to happen because ANet can’t have 2 playable races at war with each other, and it seemed like a good way for the writers to address that particular elephant in the room. It’s not something GW1 humans would ever do, despite any amount of time passing, but it’s done for the sake of the overarching us-vs-dragons storyline.

While it was clear . . . they had done it before. At least once, since we don’t know how the Veldtrunner centaurs and humans got along. We do know they weren’t outright fighting each other all the time blindly, and that they coexisted in Kourna.

This isn’t about who’s right and who’s wrong on the human, charr, centaur, tengu side. This is about your statement which was an absolute statement . . . and was demonstrably wrong.

But again, that has some real-world nuances to it that might not relate here. But you get the jist. No race really fits that definition to a tee in GW, but it should be easy enough to make certain distinctions in lieu of that.

I need to stop and ask then, because you defined civilization so narrowly . . .

Here’s a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilization

If you want to debate whether any races fit into "civilization’ by any criteria, we’ll have to take it to the Lore subforum. It’s sufficient to say I find that the five races all fit the defining characteristics of “civilization” within necessary deviations due to the consequences of their surroundings.

I’d also add that the centaurs, skritt, quaggan, krait, tengu, kodan, dredge, hylek, and possibly others do also suit some level of civilization and/or culture.

Tobius

That’s just it though, Tyria did have geographic and cultural differences in the first game. Besides adding a few more classes, that was the whole point of it. There wasn’t much religious difference though, maybe for gameplay purposes with skills. Who knows. The different cultures weren’t monolithic either, the writers took bits and pieces from around the world and basically created patchwork Frankenstein cultures that only partially mimicked any one real-world culture. And they actually pulled it off amazingly. It’s irrelevant to state we only know so much about real-life cultures they pulled from, they weren’t trying to be genuine to any of them in particular, only in general.

At any rate, my point was that stating that the existence of certain physical elements in Tyria should follow the same course as they do in real life is not very realistic. But even so, it’s perhaps more important to stay true to the essence and spirit of a story or artform, than it is to reconcile technical mechanics to make them less oxymoronic.

The current races do indeed have their own distinct personalities, you can tell the writer’s went to great lengths to that end. I just think its sad we have them in this game at all, when the first game proved the human-only cultures to be a popular success beyond a doubt. Like I’ve stated on other threads, the only reasons I can see for their introduction at all is marketing(i.e more monies!), artistic creativity, and the reason I stated earlier.

The Tengu thing; ok, the Tengu Wars and the pre-Searing conflict are not the same. I left off “by any means” because something tells me you might latch onto that. How were both sides wrong? Or when did both sides commit mass atrocities?

And you’re comparing the early Charr-Human conflict to the centaurs? You’re missing the point again. The centaurs haven’t demonstrated nearly the amount of mindless disregard for human dignity that the Charr have. The centaurs probably hate humans for sure, we’re encroaching on their lands. But I have yet to see any sign of them building human bonfires or constructing a weapon to decimate the face of Kryta.

And yes, you’re right about having all 5 races possibly fitting the descriptor for “civilization.” Of course they do…now. The Norn and Asura popped into existence in EotN, the Sylvari just recently. They didn’t exist back in the time we are talking about.

And the Charr…they’ve had more plot changes than a bad soap opera. The Charr of pre-EotN were savages. Why ANet chose to give up on the human cultures is sad to see. Why they chose the Charr as one of the replacements is beyond me.

Obsidian.1328:

Tobias
That’s just it though, Tyria did have geographic and cultural differences in the first game. Besides adding a few more classes, that was the whole point of it. There wasn’t much religious difference though, maybe for gameplay purposes with skills. Who knows. The different cultures weren’t monolithic either, the writers took bits and pieces from around the world and basically created patchwork Frankenstein cultures that only partially mimicked any one real-world culture. And they actually pulled it off amazingly.

I somewhat agree with you that, they did pull it off . . . but then all of Tyria in Prophecies came off a little flat to me at first and it wasn’t until they had some time to work on it that it started to “pop”. And the reason we lost so much of the distinct culture going on is that humans have been pushed back into one place, which was already home to Kryta . . . so the cultures adapted and were adapted to.

And this is the only real life comparison culture comparison I will make . . . promise. Divinity’s Reach is (for me) like New York. Massive architectural achievements, a melting pot of independent cultures which retain enough of their heritage to be at least slightly distinct? It’s everything people think New York is like.

By comparison, Lion’s Arch is also like New York. It’s got all the cultures who don’t automatically start all out to-the-death fights coexisting, it’s seedy, it’s got a reputation for being dangerous if you go down the wrong alley, and through the gate network it is connected to most of the major parts of the known world.

At any rate, my point was that stating that the existence of certain physical elements in Tyria should follow the same course as they do in real life is not very realistic.

Physics is physics, in most cases. If your fiction needs to have things defying physics and it doesn’t get a good reason (’it’s magic’ doesn’t count) you’re writing fantasy. But just because things can float in mid air with no apparent support or reason doesn’t mean if you boil water in a closed area it won’t explode . . . or that your equivalent of gunpowder won’t violently expand when exposed to flame or another catalyst.

The Tengu thing; ok, the Tengu Wars and the pre-Searing conflict are not the same. I left off “by any means” because something tells me you might latch onto that. How were both sides wrong? Or when did both sides commit mass atrocities?

Well, wrong? Right? There’s no wrong or right to the humble beginnings. The humans settled on land another race thought of as theirs. Words were exchanged. Weapons were used on noncombatants. It moved on from there. I cannot, at all, cite every example of anything. All I can do is point at this and go: “these things happened, and they were violent affairs”. One ended in a truce before it could get out of hand (the Tengu Wars) and the other was allowed to continue to a natural conclusion (one side wins and pushes the other out or utterly destroys them).

And you’re comparing the early Charr-Human conflict to the centaurs? You’re missing the point again. The centaurs haven’t demonstrated nearly the amount of mindless disregard for human dignity that the Charr have. The centaurs probably hate humans for sure, we’re encroaching on their lands. But I have yet to see any sign of them building human bonfires or constructing a weapon to decimate the face of Kryta.

I wasn’t comparing charr-human relations with centaur-human relations, I was noting there was an analogue in Elona where humans and another race were at odds over lands. And it seemed stable until Varesh’s generals started stirring things up, I can only surmise . . . since we have no clue . . . that it returned to being a guarded coexistence after.

As for not seeing war machines or human bonfires . . .

First, they are not so strict carnivores as charr, so they have no real need of that much meat. No, instead they work the humans they capture until they die of exhaustion. (Again, this is implied, not outright stated.) The charr also, notably, did take prisoners and execute them for sport at some point after the Searing. (See: Gwen’s Story)

As for war machines? The centaurs don’t build like the charr because they are not like the charr. Those who can use magic, they conjure up elemental forces to do their bidding. The shaman which assaulted Shaemoor and the leader in the Harathi Hinterlands show this. They also construct war machines in the form of trebuchets and catapults, which are on par with human war machines. They are also exceedingly simple and easy to construct . . . perfect for a group which is intended to be able to be on the move or need to vacate a position.

— more

And yes, you’re right about having all 5 races possibly fitting the descriptor for “civilization.” Of course they do…now. The Norn and Asura popped into existence in EotN, the Sylvari just recently. They didn’t exist back in the time we are talking about.

Even then, the asura had a civilization, and the norn had one. It’s clear the norn had been living in the area we discovered them in for some time, and it was their home. The asura . . . we don’t know where they were originally but we can see they had a civilization and culture by how they behaved after being pushed to the surface world. They’re rebuilding at the time we see them so of course they sort of “popped into existence” . . . they literally were starting a fresh home.

And the Charr…they’ve had more plot changes than a bad soap opera. The Charr of pre-EotN were savages. Why ANet chose to give up on the human cultures is sad to see. Why they chose the Charr as one of the replacements is beyond me.

The charr we saw were savage and brutal. But then, we were only seeing soldiers in action on the field. They were either enemies to overcome or a force to flee from, because as an opposing army that’s all they were. They didn’t bother trying to speak to Ascalonians because it was not anything they were interested in doing.

We saw there was at least a hint there was something to the charr other than blind savagery in Nightfall. Though it was on an optional quest. Again . . . before that, all we had been encountering were war parties or scouting groups. This is usually not the best lens through which to view a culture.

Also, while the charr have had a lot of development, they were also one of the few races we could actually identify which was around from “day one” of the original Guild Wars release. The next closest were dwarves, centaurs, and tengu. All three of those got more development over time, though only dwarves got enough to rival the charr in how much they got “messed up”.

I’m not sure I can continue talking about this currently, most of this is straying into lore discussion and off topic from the original post.

Here’s what I can say on topic:

Guild Wars 1 was as goofy, as silly, as contrived as Guild Wars 2 is. Not all three at once, but it had its moments. The main reason the story seems weaker is because it appears to have been divided up among five races instead of one.

I posted about this on the Personal Story subforum. There are NPCs who you have no idea who they’re supposed to be whose significance only becomes clear if you played enough permutations of personal stories. Which is an interesting thing but it can be maddening to me.

Yes, the story is weaker on one path alone, but it appears that was a conscious choice to encourage people to at least check out other races and biography paths. Goofier? Ehhh, it comes and goes. Part of it is the presentation, part of it is the voice acting, and part of it is the dialogue suffering from being “not entirely natural” (but understandably that’s an issue all writers have to confront).

gw1 didn’t feel very serious either.
Tons of popculture references.
But the overarching attitude of the story was a bit more grounded.

Dragon’s do not feel like serious threats tbh.

ensoriki.5789:

gw1 didn’t feel very serious either.
Tons of popculture references.
But the overarching attitude of the story was a bit more grounded.

Dragon’s do not feel like serious threats tbh.

How do you get that out of what we have?

. . . no, not being sarcastic, entirely. I’m just wanting to hear how they don’t feel serious.

The Asura were probably the worst addition to the lore of guild wars, a large portion of them are horribly written in every possible way imaginable. It’s like ArenaNet went to the Nickelodeon studio to recruit some of their writers.

Tobias

Personally, I don’t mind if arguments go off topic as long as they stay interesting.

The Asura and Norn didn’t exist until EotN came out. When it was released they were written as having been around for a long time. There’s a subtle difference there that is important. It’s a tad inauthentic to imply there were always part of the GW1 world.

I’m glad you brought up the Nightfall quest because I’ve commented on this very thing before. But I’ll try it out again I guess. J. Grubbs was brought onboard ANet for the first time to help write Nightfall. He’s also one of the main movers and shakers when it comes to lore for both EotN and GW2. In that light, it’s hardly surprising we find a sympathetic Charr in the Realm of Torment or wherever it was. He was fond of the Charr for whatever reason, and was already starting to bend them a certain direction. <— just my theory fyi

I disagree on your analysis of the comparative goofyness values of both games <lulz>, but I don’t think we will ever see eye to eye on that. Suffice to say GW1 connected with me in a simple but personal way. I identified with it for whatever reason. In GW2, I can’t wait to skip the cinematics.

I would also like to add I was ravenously optimistic for this game before it came out. Ranted a lot on various forums against people who thought it would fall flat on its face. I never thought I would grow to loathe the content like I do now. If it weren’t for WvW, and the exquisite landscape of Tyria with which I like to roam aimlessly about, I’m not sure I would still be playing it.

Finally, I hardly ever get anyone to comment on whether or not GW should have been kept a “human-only” game, including yourself. I don’t know why that is, perhaps it’s too far gone to realistically consider it. But it’s something to think about. Why do you think they brought in 4 more races to play, hmmm?

Calae.1738:

Frotee.2634:

Seeing as my immersion in MMOs can’t compare to the immersion in a single player RPG or a good book, said MMO may as well amuse me – seeing how I have to deal with enough ‘seriousness’ in my real life.
Also, I like to laugh.

It’s childish comedy, not adult comedy.

I’m sure no one would complain if they added funny things that adults would laugh at. It’s like Star Wars episode 1 style comedy with Jar Jar Binks. It’s goofy and childish. Walt Disney does a very good job making stories where adults and childen both laugh. Their jokes target multiple demographics.

Just because you don’t get the joke doesn’t mean it isn’t there. My kids wonder what my wife and I are laughing at when they watch Disney movies all the time…

Oops, wrong thread.

Obsidian.1328:

Tobias
The Asura and Norn didn’t exist until EotN came out. When it was released they were written as having been around for a long time. There’s a subtle difference there that is important. It’s a tad inauthentic to imply there were always part of the GW1 world.

I agree, it’s inauthentic, but that’s the nature of “retroactive continuity”. If something is added into a story and evidence is put in that shows they’ve existed longer than before the first time other people meet them, then they have been there as long as the evidence suggests. They have to have been.

It’s just that we never encountered them until that point. And, fairness, we had no real reason to. The asura were underground until Primordius’ Destroyers forced them out . and the norn are incredibly far north on the other side of the charr lands. The asura weren’t interested in “us” and the norn were content to live where they were and every so often “remind” the charr to stay out of their hunting grounds.

In the sense of the game . . . once they were introduced, they were always there. We know they were scribbled into being by some writer who had some reason to write them up. But when it comes to talking about the world as though it existed? They were always there, we just didn’t know about them yet.

I’m glad you brought up the Nightfall quest because I’ve commented on this very thing before. But I’ll try it out again I guess. J. Grubbs was brought onboard ANet for the first time to help write Nightfall. He’s also one of the main movers and shakers when it comes to lore for both EotN and GW2. In that light, it’s hardly surprising we find a sympathetic Charr in the Realm of Torment or wherever it was. He was fond of the Charr for whatever reason, and was already starting to bend them a certain direction. <— just my theory fyi

It’s a good theory, given what I’ve read of his . . . he probably saw the charr and went “guys are you doing anything with this race?” before starting to work with it. Again, at the risk of off-topic talk, it’s kinda how R.A. Salvatore wound up putting a lot of definition into Drow culture and mannerisms, along with another author whose name escapes me. Up until Drizzt, they were very much single-facet villains. Think about it.

And again, none of this is really bad. The charr as they were originally were uninteresting. Two details later (the titan quests and the Nightfall quest) and abruptly there’s an intriguing question.

I disagree on your analysis of the comparative goofyness values of both games <lulz>, but I don’t think we will ever see eye to eye on that. Suffice to say GW1 connected with me in a simple but personal way. I identified with it for whatever reason. In GW2, I can’t wait to skip the cinematics.

It’s okay. I really liked GW1 too and I really think in some places the storytelling shines through better than GW2. But in some places it dips quite a bit. If anything I find GW2 mostly . . . mostly . . . maintains a consistent tone. And yes . . .

. . . that tone is much lighter than the four times running “It’s the end of the world as we know it” GW1 had

I would also like to add I was ravenously optimistic for this game before it came out. Ranted a lot on various forums against people who thought it would fall flat on its face.

If I could, I’d buy you a drink. Not just the distance thing, and the not knowing if you’re legal, but the fact I can’t afford to right now

Finally, I hardly ever get anyone to comment on whether or not GW should have been kept a “human-only” game, including yourself. I don’t know why that is, perhaps it’s too far gone to realistically consider it. But it’s something to think about. Why do you think they brought in 4 more races to play, hmmm?

In two words? Artistic diversity.

To expand on those? Mmmm, in the shortest I can get right now and still make a point. Five races of distinctly different “feel” means you can get five distinct art styles into the game and their native lands will have five distinct feelings as you roam. And when you happen on a small colony or outpost of one race somewhere else, you will know it instantly by the architecture and hallmarks. Heck, it goes so far as that you can tell which GROUP owns the camp you are approaching sometimes. Lionguard, Flame Legion, Vigil, humans, charr, sylvari . . . krait, skritt . . .

It’s about allowing players a major cosmetic choice and a minor mechanical one.

Many people try to “joke off” the seriousness of the world. I don’t see much of GW2 being all that funny.

The fact that you can be annoyed with a person like Tybalt, is a normal reaction. This doesn’t mean the character is written bad. Tybalt totally IS that wink wink nudge nudge guy that you can love or hate.

We laugh at the skritt because they act so stupid and goofy (to us), because stupid people are generally doing and saying silly things.

When Charr joke about stuff they do this in a real army buddies demeanour. “Haha, did you see how I blew them up!?”

Norn are the drinkers and partiers they are generally more happy.

Asura are totally serious about their craft and totally sarcastic and mean when to others (which can be funny to us, sure).

Sylvari are funny through their lack of experience.

All these races are hard to role play or immerse to because they are not our race. We as humans ourselves , don’t even understand them, we don’t know their humour.

Hell, there’s loads of NPCs complaining about where they are what their fellow NPCs do, where they’re stationed as well.

Tobias

“Retroactive continuity” is what us historians call b___s___. So let me get this straight: things do or don’t exist…until something else comes along to counter that existence. So only the most current take on reality matters. Gotcha. I know a few campaign reps that could use your speechwriting talents.

The Titan quests don’t present the Charr in any different way than previous, you shouldn’t include them with the Nightfall reference.

Why you would by me a drink I have no idea. Seriously. But if you will then Jamison straight up please.

“Artistic Diversity.” Odd…that’s almost exactly what they had before, even more so. Ascalonian, Krytan, Orrian, Canthan, Luxon, Kurzick, Istani, Kournan, Vabbi. Not to mention the various subcultures like Charr, Tengu, Dwarves, etc. All more or less distinct in style and personality. And all believable as legitimate cultures. I find it deflating that you prefer the styles that cater to those “stereotypical tropes” over a much more unique take on a gaming fantasy genre.

But I suppose if you prefer superficial, visual qualities over original, intrinsic ones, then yeah…GW2 is your game. GW2 Tyria is probably the most beautiful and gorgeous game I’ve ever played, but after the 100th breathtaking vista I’d like some believable content for my hungry brain. This stuff is for kids.

There’s a reason people only go to Disneyland sparingly, the constant themepark glamfest will make you sick after a week.

I thought the story was fine. Certain parts were funny, others were serious. When the undead entered the story I barely remember anything so goofy or funny. Hell, I’ve never gasped in a storyline before and GW2 is the first to make me do so, in a certain part involving mortars and a mesmer.

I really don’t see the issues with the goofiness at all. It’s needed when it’s needed and gone when it’s not.

Obsidian.1328:

Tobias
“Retroactive continuity” is what us historians call b___s___.

It doesn’t work in real life as well. In fiction, well . . . it’s not real. What exists is what the author says exists. And in a case where you have a shared fiction between several authors, this concept comes into play. It’s origins are in comic books, but it works with other stuff too. Like games where the writing staff may change or get additions in the middle of a series.

And it is bull hockey, no doubt about that. The question when you apply it is “how much is this going to muck up what already existed”. in this case, it didn’t do that much since the original material was light on detail.

The Titan quests don’t present the Charr in any different way than previous, you shouldn’t include them with the Nightfall reference.

Well, if I intended to bend things to make my point, I wouldn’t have.

However, it’s necessary. The titans were always implied, not outright stated, to be the charr “gods” which were responsible for the searing. The last few Titan quests made it fact. The Nightfall quest explored that fact. So in order to use the Nightfall quest . . . I had to use the Titan quests.

“Artistic Diversity.” Odd…that’s almost exactly what they had before, even more so. Ascalonian, Krytan, Orrian, Canthan, Luxon, Kurzick, Istani, Kournan, Vabbi. Not to mention the various subcultures like Charr, Tengu, Dwarves, etc. All more or less distinct in style and personality. And all believable as legitimate cultures. I find it deflating that you prefer the styles that cater to those “stereotypical tropes” over a much more unique take on a gaming fantasy genre.

You asked why, not what my preference was. My preference would have been to keep some. Except we couldn’t keep Ascalon (it was dead at the time of Eye of the North and Guild Wars Beyond, but King Adelbern could not understand it) and Orr was straight gone even then.

But, of course, there’s another trouble. Guild Wars 2 was in development and it had all these races people did want to see as playable. The only unanticipated one was the sylvari (even then they caught some crap, as I recall). If you included any other races, then humans had to have less of a role otherwise the other races would look even more “tacked on” rather than an integral part of the world.

And from experience . . . you don’t “tack on” a race post-release unless you have a very good idea of what to do with it.

Given the whole of GW1 to use and being told I needed to make Guild Wars 2, the choice of setting becomes easier as you need to cut it down to something which can be managed before people forget about you. Remember, there were three campaigns over four years . . . that’s a lot of content and you need to chop something.

So what? Well, most fans of the original Guild Wars probably played Prophecies . . . in fact, most of your players probably began with it so Tyria is a good choice. Good mix of biomes and terrain to work with, and you have a lot of diverse material to work with. Only, oooh, the only real settlements of humanity left are in Kryta and the dismal offering in Ascalon. Making it humans-only means you need to come up with a way they were able to push out more to make their way.

You’re already written into two corners. They can’t take back Orr since it’s gone . . . and it’s established there’s no really viable way of triumphing over the charr in Ascalon without some seriously . . . deus-ex-machina writing. Kryta had just finished a civil war scarring it, and their borders weren’t even secure yet.

About here, is where I would indeed have said “screw it, go with using other races”. Short of having the game take place as a large amount of area where it was wilderness and maybe a friendly village you could stop in for supplies . . .

I should note this was a big complaint about Prophecies, by the way, the huge amount of empty space with nothing of interest . . .

It gets less and less away from an MMO and more towards another adventure game with shared player pools. And while there’s nothing wrong with that, they already made a game like that. It was Guild Wars 1.

All of this, mind you, is dependent on “you have to use what you’re given after Nightfall wraps its story, and plan to not just connect the two ideas but continue in the first world”. If I had no such limitations . . .

I’d probably have pulled a “Filgaia” answer. (See: Wild Arms series)

But I suppose if you prefer superficial, visual qualities over original, intrinsic ones, then yeah…GW2 is your game. GW2 Tyria is probably the most beautiful and gorgeous game I’ve ever played, but after the 100th breathtaking vista I’d like some believable content for my hungry brain. This stuff is for kids.

Here’s a problem.

I don’t prefer superficial, visual qualities . . . I like them, but I also like games where the graphics are crappy so they can get away with more effort on technical issues. Minecraft, for example. Or even older games I will go back to, such as Eye of the Beholder 2. Or older than that and fish out my Gold Box Collection CDrom and try feverishly to get it to work.

I’ve played games where there was no visual component at all, just guys sitting around a coffee table making crap up as they went. It was the most intense and awesome storytelling moment I had involved myself in, and I would do it again in a heartbeat. It was intrinsically superior to anything a computer MMO currently can offer me, and I know that will probably never . . . ever change.

That’s right, I said it. Tabletop RPGs have the potential to blow the socks, pants, and frilly underwear off any computer MMO I can name in story and engaging play. I’ll even sig that line to make it clear where I stand. And yet I have never seen anything as goofy and silly as a Call of Cthulu game at the wrong time.

Or that one level in Modern Warfare 2 which was supposed to be very controversial but I found so over the top it passed right into comedy.

Where a lot of companies are skimping nowadays is writing. They don’t hire writers instead they just have devs (like those that design quests) write all the dialogue and story stuff.

Not saying this is or is not the case here, but I tend to agree the game is pretty heavily tilted toward the silliness side.

Tobias

It did “muck up” what already existed. We’ve already been over not only the change in tone and atmosphere of GW, but also the change in divine import, races, and cultures. Not to mention game-play. Having an original be light on detail does not warrant an expected change in trajectory of the narrative on its own. Simply asking “should we do this” should have given the writers pause. Obviously it didn’t, as they have favored trope over tried-and-true.

You also just re-stated the same “it’s the current material that is valid” argument, but in a different way. Authors come and go all the time, and the content the new ones create will always be compared to the content that came before them. But to say its the right of whoever is here now to do what he wishes with said content is not just wrong, it’s irresponsible. Heck even the same author can mess things up, the trainwreck that is Star Wars episodes I-III can speak for that. Sure it’s Lucas’ right to do so, but how many people can you find on the planet who would say young Vader was legitimately portrayed in those? He sure did cry a lot.

You still didn’t need to bring up the Titan quests. The topic was how the Charr were portrayed, not when were the Titan’s referenced. All the Charr behaved the same up to the point you meet Garfaz, regardless of whether or not the Titans were the implied or factual force behind them.

Ascalon wasn’t dead after Nightfall. It was beaten and burned, but still very much alive. And Cantha and Elona(Joko was still a problem though) were still alive and kicking. That’s 4 out of the 5 original human areas still a viable option. And you never set foot in Orr anyway, so you’re not even missing that one. If all that’s a lost cause I wouldn’t get into sports if I were you. Additionally, Utopia would have been a 6th area to include had they used the ideas for that for humans in GW2, and not sold them wholesale to the Asura and Sylvari themes. And Orr would have made a lovely area to explore in the future…just like it is now.

Your next few paragraphs are way off topic. We were discussing the pros and cons of staying all-human vs multi-race, and you immediately state it was too late since GW2 development had begun. /facepalm. We’re talking pre-EotN, not post. Stay with me here. Also, I’ve never heard the Proph landscape described as “nothing of interest” before. Most peeps I know said they thought the land was stunning for its time. And where did you make the jump to all of your meanderings meaning it couldn’t be an mmo? Because there were fewer humans left around now? You need a much better argument than that to be convincing.

Your last post, 2 things:

1) If you don’t prefer “artistic diversity” qualities in your games, don’t use them in your argument. Or if your speaking on Anets behalf and not your own, say so. You switch in and out of 1st and 3rd-person too readily it veils your motives and lets you not be held accountable.

2) Mark Twain once wrote in a letter to a friend, “I’m sorry this letter is so long, if I had taken my time it would have been much shorter.” It’s nice you like to expound upon your game history and how it has shaped your experiences, but it’s unnecessary. Or at least keep it succinct lol. We may have strayed from the original post, but it does still relate directly to it.

Obsidian.1328:

Tobias
You also just re-stated the same “it’s the current material that is valid” argument, but in a different way. Authors come and go all the time, and the content the new ones create will always be compared to the content that came before them. But to say its the right of whoever is here now to do what he wishes with said content is not just wrong, it’s irresponsible.

It may be irresponsible but it’s not wrong. The person who owns the rights to the material gets to make the decisions. In the case of a regime change where a new team comes on to pick up where an older team left off, the newer team gets to make the call. They might respect what was already there, or they may not. But it is their call how to handle the situation.

Heck even the same author can mess things up, the trainwreck that is Star Wars episodes I-III can speak for that. Sure it’s Lucas’ right to do so, but how many people can you find on the planet who would say young Vader was legitimately portrayed in those? He sure did cry a lot.

You went from saying it was wrong to saying Lucas had a right to do so. I’m not sure if I missed a difference here or there was just a mistake. Either way, for George Lucas it’s simple; he was the original creator and the one who was agreed to have control over the details.

ArenaNet has someone on staff (don’t ask me who, they haven’t said, but I know they exist) whose job it is to keep the lore internally consistent. They don’t have to be concerned with “did we change the direction of the game feel”, they have to be concerned with “does this contradict something we already said, in a way we can’t reconcile”.

You still didn’t need to bring up the Titan quests. The topic was how the Charr were portrayed, not when were the Titan’s referenced. All the Charr behaved the same up to the point you meet Garfaz, regardless of whether or not the Titans were the implied or factual force behind them.

It is important to how they were portrayed. It gave them a link to the Titans rather than some fiery “gods” who liked things to burn. Could you believe there were people seriously suggesting it was Balthazar since he was a god who resonated more with fire and battle? It was very important because it showed something was using the charr and putting them on the path towards the Searing. It showed that the Titans were directly responsible for the Searing through their influence over the charr, long before it was said they were the reason the charr had a Searing Cauldron.

This stuff is not unimportant.

Ascalon wasn’t dead after Nightfall. It was beaten and burned, but still very much alive.

Oh no . . . it was very dead. It was terminally ill with no hope of a cure. The question was how long it would take to finally roll over and get buried.

And Cantha and Elona (Joko was still a problem though) were still alive and kicking. That’s 4 out of the 5 original human areas still a viable option. And you never set foot in Orr anyway, so you’re not even missing that one. If all that’s a lost cause I wouldn’t get into sports if I were you.

We discounted Cantha and Elona because then you’d have to add in as much landmass and territory as Tyria . . . in the case of Elona, possibly more . . . just to bring in the cultures. This is not a feasible situation for a team having to build a game from the ground up with a deadline. Even if the deadline was four years away.

I really don’t know if you grasp the sheer amount of work it would take to even pick up Kaineng City and make it work within Guild Wars 2’s engine let alone the rest of Cantha.

Additionally, Utopia would have been a 6th area to include had they used the ideas for that for humans in GW2, and not sold them wholesale to the Asura and Sylvari themes. And Orr would have made a lovely area to explore in the future…just like it is now.

Utopia was canceled but much of the design work was rolled into Eye of the North and repurposed. Also, it’s not fair using a product which never got past a theoretical stage to count as a sixth human nation.

— More

Your next few paragraphs are way off topic. We were discussing the pros and cons of staying all-human vs multi-race, and you immediately state it was too late since GW2 development had begun. /facepalm. We’re talking pre-EotN, not post. Stay with me here.

Right. It’s not really off topic, it’s quite on the topic we were discussing. Which is how you get to “we need more races” from “but we have all these human nations”.

Anyway, since we agreed that the decision had to be made pre-EOTN in order to “splice in” the norn, charr, asura, and dragons for Guild Wars 2, that means that before EOTN was in serious production the material for Guild Wars 2 had to have been in mind. You yourself implied that EOTN was a means of starting the development of GW2’s story, which means . . . if we accept that as true, then right after Nightfall when work was being done on EOTN, they had to have an idea of what GW2 would be like.

If EOTN was an attempt to set up things for GW2, especially these races, then before the writing for EOTN was finished and sent off to be coded there had to be an idea of what they wanted in GW2.

Also, I’ve never heard the Proph landscape described as “nothing of interest” before. Most peeps I know said they thought the land was stunning for its time.

Try this gentleman’s view. And his commenters , one stands out a couple articles down the line:

“In Prophecies especially, there is a huge amount of landmass if you choose to explore it all, and not enough done to make each area distinctive.”

That’s about it. And I’ve seen other references to it as “a beautiful nothing” because while there was a beautiful area to explore . . . more often than not there was nothing for you there. “The Falls” was probably one of my favorite areas to go get lost in but there was nothing really THERE until some green items and the hidden workshop got added. And that’s not even talking about half the other sights you could stumble to. The western path of Talus Chute, where you had sky on both sides of you running along a ridge. And the untold dozens of little corners you wouldn’t find unless you were doing your Cartography.

And where did you make the jump to all of your meanderings meaning it couldn’t be an mmo? Because there were fewer humans left around now? You need a much better argument than that to be convincing.

No, you missed the other thing. What you would have is a situation where there was one hub city where humans had been gathering and a bunch of smaller towns and outposts which were on the frontier. Or camps barely holding off forces trying to swallow them up. While an MMO could work like that, that sort of style is far . . . FAR . . . better established in something even more akin to the original Guild Wars.

Which we all knew this game was not intended to be like at all, in a mechanical sense.

Your last post, 2 things:

1) If you don’t prefer “artistic diversity” qualities in your games, don’t use them in your argument. Or if your speaking on Anets behalf and not your own, say so. You switch in and out of 1st and 3rd-person too readily it veils your motives and lets you not be held accountable.

If I speak for ArenaNet, it’s only surmising from what I know, what’s been said, and what can be gleaned from how things have turned out. If I speak for myself, I will do so. I try to not let my opinion of whether something was done well, or whether I’d do something different, get in the way of a point I’m trying to make.

In short, I can disagree with something and still explain why I think it was done without resorting to things like “they had to have been incompetent”.

And to make it crystal clear: I do not work for, or represent, ArenaNet employees or people who once worked for them. If I express an opinion, with no qualification (“I believe”, “I expect”) it belongs to me alone unless someone else shares in it. If I sound like I know what they do at their offices, or how their internal policies work? It’s because I’ve been at least a little aware of things over time and listening to an ample amount of game developers talk about things. I read, I listen, and I think.

2) Mark Twain once wrote in a letter to a friend, “I’m sorry this letter is so long, if I had taken my time it would have been much shorter.” It’s nice you like to expound upon your game history and how it has shaped your experiences, but it’s unnecessary. Or at least keep it succinct lol. We may have strayed from the original post, but it does still relate directly to it.

I expound on all this because, frankly, once I finish talking here I intend to avoid bringing this up again. I don’t have the luxury of infinite time, and there was everything this last weekend to make that clear in abundance. When I am afforded the luxury to expand on a point and even in a roundabout way make my point? I’m going to seize it, because tomorrow . . . the day after . . . or the week after, that time may not be there anymore.

I don’t intend to go down this path repeatedly, only when it seems it might yield something interesting in the way of conversation and discussion. So far it has, which has been rewarding and enlightening. And like anything of value, it is worth doing to the fullest effort you can give.