Guild Wars 2

There are some extreme, but not uncommon examples. It’s like third time I reply with them, but you are welcome. 5 signets on a warrior (you don’t need /inspect for this case though), no reflects on the only guardian at grawl fractal 48 or a character with randomly chosen traits and randomly mixed awkward attributes on their gear – these most obvious examples indicate that the player behind them is not really skilled.

Sure, you can play this way when you are alone, but when you join a group, you do harm to your team mates. Guild Wars 2 encourages PUGing. Inspect feature, besides its educational and aesthetic effect, will help in avoiding bad builds that are not suited for group play – yes, magic find leeches too.

/inspect option would be just like interviewing for a big company and having your boss physically look over all the tags on your clothing (your armor) and thumbing through everything in your briefcase and wallet (build) to decide if you’re worthy of working with them rather than them evaluating by your actual skill and experience at the job. Wouldn’t you feel like your privacy was invaded a bit? And honestly… is there anyone that really wants to play with a person who acts like this? Really?

CETheLucid.3964:

If you like GW2, you shouldn’t want this.

Lol, you’re just precious. First of, you strut around, acting morally superior and saying that people shouldn’t force people to play a certain way. Then you turn around and tell us how we should like our game. Pot, meet kettle.

penatbater.4710:

Wethospu.6437:

Except you can detect the worst combination. Bad build -> bad skill/troll.

How can you know he’s unskillful even before you play with him?

Because skill is both player skill and being able to recognize and use good builds. People keep bringing up the flawed argument of ‘good build =/= good player, bad build =/= bad player’. The only problem with this argument is that it’s true to some extent, but a bad player with a good build is still better than a bad player with a bad build. Not to mention, a good player would not run a bad build and claim it’s a good one.

Magnus Steelgrave.6580:

/inspect option would be just like interviewing for a big company and having your boss physically look over all the tags on your clothing (your armor) and thumbing through everything in your briefcase and wallet (build) to decide if you’re worthy of working with them rather than them evaluating by your actual skill and experience at the job. Wouldn’t you feel like your privacy was invaded a bit? And honestly… is there anyone that really wants to play with a person who acts like this? Really?

but in the game, the gear you wear is an essential part of how well you will perform, right (how about you try wearing all white items and go to a dungeon to feel what im saying)? irl, your clothes are just worn to cover your naked body.

penatbater.4710:

Wethospu.6437:

Except you can detect the worst combination. Bad build -> bad skill/troll.

How can you know he’s unskillful even before you play with him?

When you have played the game enough and know what’s useful in dungeons it’s not hard to see which builds don’t work at all. If someone uses build like that then he clearly doesn’t know what’s useful.

For example shout-heal healing/precision/vitality hammer Warrior is definitely not needed on fractal lvl 48, especially when we asked for someone with damage.

alcopaul.2156:

Magnus Steelgrave.6580:

/inspect option would be just like interviewing for a big company and having your boss physically look over all the tags on your clothing (your armor) and thumbing through everything in your briefcase and wallet (build) to decide if you’re worthy of working with them rather than them evaluating by your actual skill and experience at the job. Wouldn’t you feel like your privacy was invaded a bit? And honestly… is there anyone that really wants to play with a person who acts like this? Really?

but in the game, the gear you wear is an essential part of how well you will perform, right (how about you try wearing all white items and go to a dungeon to feel what im saying)? irl, your clothes are just worn to cover your naked body.

That’s crux of the issue: it isn’t an essential part at all of how a player will perform. People just have been conditioned that it is so because gear was so important in many other games (which is why people are also SO USED to inspect features that are not needed at all in this particular game). I could say that one could play efficiently even without min/maxing, to be honest with you. Players will perform in any possible way, good, bad, or in between, regardless of gear.

The white argument is moot, and you know it. It’s trying to grasp for an argument, and I say so with all due respect, not trying to belittle you. It’s all too rare that anyone would do that-a more possible scenario will be a player with all rares or masterwork items, and if they are good, they’ll do great (perhaps even possible with whites, though I wouldn’t do that myself for my own sanity.)

Bright.9160:

CETheLucid.3964:

If you like GW2, you shouldn’t want this.

Lol, you’re just precious. First of, you strut around, acting morally superior and saying that people shouldn’t force people to play a certain way. Then you turn around and tell us how we should like our game. Pot, meet kettle.

penatbater.4710:

Wethospu.6437:

Except you can detect the worst combination. Bad build -> bad skill/troll.

How can you know he’s unskillful even before you play with him?

Because skill is both player skill and being able to recognize and use good builds. People keep bringing up the flawed argument of ‘good build =/= good player, bad build =/= bad player’. The only problem with this argument is that it’s true to some extent, but a bad player with a good build is still better than a bad player with a bad build. Not to mention, a good player would not run a bad build and claim it’s a good one.

There will never be a consensus other than subjective opinion of what is a good build. Your opinion of what’s good has no bearing at all on what every other player should use, no matter how experienced or genuinely a good player you are, because there are just too many variables to take into account (playstyle, profession, affinity with specific gear, etc.)

For instance, for many players, full Rabid’s is “bad”, for others it’s excellent. If the elitist pseudo-meta decides that Rabid is always “bad”, they will be looked over as “bad players”, regardless if the specific profession/build/player combo works wonders. Basically they would be discriminated against for playing effectively with a build that is non-standard-the reason an inspect tool will eventually be the demise of GW2’s community (no worries, though, as thankfully it won’t be implemented for said reasons.)

True, 5 signet-build will be the best build for someone who doesn’t want to use utilities.
Similarly full tank might be the best for someone who doesn’t care about dodging.

However, do I want to play with people like that?

The reason it shouldn’t be in the game is the same reason countries have gun laws.

You don’t give people the tools to commit crimes, unless you want them to commit crimes.

You might say, well not wanting to play with people who aren’t good isn’t a crime…and that’s true. But it makes for a lousy community. I don’t believe Anet will ever allow it in the game, because of how they feel about community.

Star Ace.5207:

There will never be a consensus other than subjective opinion of what is a good build. Your opinion of what’s good has no bearing at all on what every other player should use, no matter how experienced or genuinely a good player you are, because there are just too many variables to take into account (playstyle, profession, affinity with specific gear, etc.)

Actually, there is a consensus of what a good build is for dungeons: those that can clear it the fastest are obviously the best. Yes, that’s not taking into account player skill etc, but that’s like saying ‘well, this one car can drive 200 km/h, and this one can drive 100 km/h, but I’m not capable of driving faster than 80 km/h, because I’m not used to it, so obviously both cars are equally good’. It’s pretty clear both cars are not equal for the purpose of driving fast. The 100 km/h car might be good enough for a bad driver, but is demonstrably worse than the other one.

There are of course different takes on the builds, because not all the META builds are the same, for example, there are different zerker guardian builds we run in the guild, all depending on player’s preference. When it comes to doing damage, they’re just about equally good, so it doesn’t matter, same goes with zerker warrior and mesmer builds. There are some different flavors involved, yes, they might be very similar, and their playstyles will be almost identical, but they’re the best builds as tested by a lot of people and most of them have come to the same conclusions.

Bright.9160:

Star Ace.5207:

There will never be a consensus other than subjective opinion of what is a good build. Your opinion of what’s good has no bearing at all on what every other player should use, no matter how experienced or genuinely a good player you are, because there are just too many variables to take into account (playstyle, profession, affinity with specific gear, etc.)

Actually, there is a consensus of what a good build is for dungeons: those that can clear it the fastest are obviously the best. Yes, that’s not taking into account player skill etc, but that’s like saying ‘well, this one car can drive 200 km/h, and this one can drive 100 km/h, but I’m not capable of driving faster than 80 km/h, because I’m not used to it, so obviously both cars are equally good’. It’s pretty clear both cars are not equal for the purpose of driving fast. The 100 km/h car might be good enough for a bad driver, but is demonstrably worse than the other one.

There are of course different takes on the builds, because not all the META builds are the same, for example, there are different zerker guardian builds we run in the guild, all depending on player’s preference. When it comes to doing damage, they’re just about equally good, so it doesn’t matter, same goes with zerker warrior and mesmer builds. There are some different flavors involved, yes, they might be very similar, and their playstyles will be almost identical, but they’re the best builds as tested by a lot of people and most of them have come to the same conclusions.

Out of subject, you should study personality types (no offense intended.) Many people like to go with the flow, and many like to do things effectively, but in their own way. So no matter how proven some builds may be, the way some people are will drive them to find their own answers, and often with awesome results-they are not “defective” or are any less just because of that (not subscribing to the “proven norm”, as many would do.)

Feel free to play the way you wish, though-you are also entitled to be yourself, as well you should.

Star Ace.5207:

Out of subject, you should study personality types (no offense intended.) Many people like to go with the flow, and many like to do things effectively, but in their own way. So no matter how proven some builds may be, the way some people are will drive them to find their own answers, and often with awesome results-they are not “defective” or are any less just because of that (not subscribing to the “proven norm”, as many would do.)

Feel free to play the way you wish, though-you are also entitled to be yourself, as well you should.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying people should all use the builds I think are good, people can do what they kitten please….

On their own time. When they’re in my team, I expect people to play a build that works in a team setup. And I’d like to avoid people who think their kitten build is any good for clearing a dungeon. They can go ahead and play with other like-minded individuals and take 45 minutes to clear CM path 1 if they so please (reference to another thread).

Now, I’m not saying ‘my build and my build only is good’ either. There is a pretty big gray area in between what I would say are the best builds and the worst builds. Anything from that spectrum would be good enough, I’d just like to weed out the absolute worst.

And, my reply was mainly to point out that your argument about a good build being purely subjective is flawed.

Wethospu.6437:

When you have played the game enough and know what’s useful in dungeons it’s not hard to see which builds don’t work at all. If someone uses build like that then he clearly doesn’t know what’s useful.

For example shout-heal healing/precision/vitality hammer Warrior is definitely not needed on fractal lvl 48, especially when we asked for someone with damage.

I will concede this point. I think the only place where gear is quite invaluable is in higher level fractals, and cof. But people reaching lvl 48 fractals should already know that damage mitigation (toughness) is moot already since mobs hit too hard to make a difference.

Bright.9160:

And, my reply was mainly to point out that your argument about a good build being purely subjective is flawed.

It isn’t flawed-whether you accept it or not, a “good build” is only someone’s opinion, and dependent on too many variables.

(Even the “proven” Berserker’s Warrior build fails under specific circumstances. It is good, but not “Omni-good”, and certainly not for 100% of the player base. Not using it doesn’t make anyone a good or bad player. A player must have certain affinity with the build and playstyle in order to thrive-that 98% of the players (I am exaggerating) would do well with a specific build doesn’t mean it’s the right build for the last 2% of the players who it doesn’t work for, and it DOES NOT mean that last 2% people “suck” at GW2-unless you really think too highly of yourself, which I hope you don’t.)

Don’t really think it would add much to this game. The cap is the cap and variations are just play style. Bad play is bad play and no amount of armour will get you through it. Good play on the other hand can get you through a lot.

alcopaul.2156:

Magnus Steelgrave.6580:

/inspect option would be just like interviewing for a big company and having your boss physically look over all the tags on your clothing (your armor) and thumbing through everything in your briefcase and wallet (build) to decide if you’re worthy of working with them rather than them evaluating by your actual skill and experience at the job. Wouldn’t you feel like your privacy was invaded a bit? And honestly… is there anyone that really wants to play with a person who acts like this? Really?

but in the game, the gear you wear is an essential part of how well you will perform, right (how about you try wearing all white items and go to a dungeon to feel what im saying)? irl, your clothes are just worn to cover your naked body.

Not really… just cause someone is pvt not zerk doesn’t make them less effective all the time … I also know a lot of people I would rather play with in rares than a random in exotics just cause I know how skilled they are… its not all about gear… the worst player in the world could slap on some zerk gear and look like everyone else til you get down to the real action

People seem oblivious to the fact that between 2 players with equal skill, the one who has the better gear will perform better.

alcopaul.2156:

People seem oblivious to the fact that between 2 players with equal skill, the one who has the better gear will perform better.

also depends on the build and what they’re aiming for. You can put out the same amount of damage as a berserker, however whether you’ll burst once every 10 seconds or whether you’ll do continuous damage that’s the difference between most damage builds.
Then also you’ll probably never find two people wanting to party up with you that have the exact same skill level.

Mirta.5029:

alcopaul.2156:

People seem oblivious to the fact that between 2 players with equal skill, the one who has the better gear will perform better.

also depends on the build and what they’re aiming for. You can put out the same amount of damage as a berserker, however whether you’ll burst once every 10 seconds or whether you’ll do continuous damage that’s the difference between most damage builds.
Then also you’ll probably never find two people wanting to party up with you that have the exact same skill level.

i think i missed something.

The one with the better gear will perform better if they have the same skill level and build choices.

This is a hypothetical ideal scenario that stresses out performance differences between better gear and sucky gear.

Saying that inspecting gear/builds, is elitism, is wrong. By not having a useful feature, it’s producing bad players. You’re actually helping the community at large by promoting well-built builds and gear combinations. Why would anyone want the opposite?

alcopaul.2156:

i think i missed something.

The one with the better gear will perform better if they have the same skill level and build choices.

This is a hypothetical ideal scenario that stresses out performance differences between better gear and sucky gear.

1.This hypothetical scenario (of people being with the same skill level and same build wanting to party up)will never happen
2. When judging gear sets you’re judging builds. Most people if they get an inspect tool would judge berserker as the only good one without knowing anything about different ways of specking for damage builds.

What’s next? Checking if people have a legendary before you allow them in your farm group?

nexxe.7081:

Saying that inspecting gear/builds, is elitism, is wrong. By not having a useful feature, it’s producing bad players. You’re actually helping the community at large by promoting well-built builds and gear combinations. Why would anyone want the opposite?

The counterargument is that this would also restrict build variety and gear combinations to only a few possible builds for each profession. For example, I’ve yet to level a warrior, so all I can use to judge a warrior’s build and/or gear is what I’ve heard from friends or read on the forums. Giving me access to an inspection tool would only help me propagate this secondhand wisdom rather than let me engage in a discussion about the merits of a particular build.

Having said that, my preference would be for the ability to ping both build and gear upon request. I had good experiences in GW where people were able to give me advice using this feature and the voluntary nature of pinging information feels better than being offered unsolicited advice after being inspected.

alcopaul.2156:

People seem oblivious to the fact that between 2 players with equal skill, the one who has the better gear will perform better.

People seem oblivious to the fact that no 2 player will hardly ever have the same equal skill. People also seem oblivious to the fact that player skill across the entire player base will have varying skill levels.

penatbater.4710:

alcopaul.2156:

People seem oblivious to the fact that between 2 players with equal skill, the one who has the better gear will perform better.

People seem oblivious to the fact that no 2 player will hardly ever have the same equal skill. People also seem oblivious to the fact that player skill across the entire player base will have varying skill levels.

but just stating the obvious bro. in an ideal scenario, the discrepancy exists between sucky gear and good gear – that one is sucky and one is good.

you could throw the skill level card all you want provided that the gears are statless. but the case is not. numbers are numbers. high is high and low is low.

skill discrepancy can be gauged though if they have both the same gear and same build choices. the ones who kills fast and die less is obviously skilled.

Bright.9160:

Eladriel.7295:

Really? You think those of use who are against inspect are the most elitist? How pathetic! We have stated many reasons why were are against it and yet you continued to ignore it. Yet you pull fake claims from your kitten as to why we are against it or that we are elitist.. This community is beginning to be just as pathetic as the wow community…

Except, your arguments all boil down to ‘I don’t want to be excluded for running a terrible build’. You also all seem to be under the impression that you will be kicked once someone sees you’re running Knights or Soldier’s for example. Whilst I personally despise Soldier’s gear, I know it has it’s uses, and it can be a crutch for newer players to harder content, because of survivability.

There is a long way to go between ‘pants-on-head-kittened builds’ and ‘zerker or gtfo’ builds.

And to be honest, the anti-elitist crowd in here IS acting more elitist than the actual elitist crowd. It’s like looking at a group of gay people beating the ever living kitten out of someone for just saying he thinks being gay is unnatural (for the record, I don’t believe that, it’s just an analogy), and then feeling morally superior for doing so.

Just who are you to dictate my build is terrible? Who made you an expert other than self proclaimed expertise? A-net placed all those builds in the game to be utilized. Obviously they are viable or they would not be in the game.

It all boils down to, as I have said before… It is a dictatorship for making the community to use their self proclaimed right builds or gtfo.. Not a kitten one of you are experts.. There is no set in stone right build.

One last thing.. Who are you to assume I am running a terrible build just because I am against inspect? Haven’t you been told assumptions is the mother of all kitten ups?

My reasons once again why I am against inspect.. (Get it this time I’m not going to repeat myself again.)

-creates a dictatorship(conform to my build or no run)
-It segregates the community to the extreme
- promotes elitism at it’s finest
-promotes judgmental attitudes to the extreme
-promotes harassment
-Limits the playing field for dungeon runs
-Last but not least Inspect goes against A-nets philosophy of their game.

Ok that is all you get from me. I don’t not have to justify my stance any further and I am still standing by “My armor is none of your friggin buisness”

One of the main points of this game is to just pick up a group and run.. No calling out certain classes and having them to ping their kitten gear. This game is not WOW! STOP TRYING TO MAKE IT INTO WOW!

alcopaul.2156:

penatbater.4710:

alcopaul.2156:

People seem oblivious to the fact that between 2 players with equal skill, the one who has the better gear will perform better.

People seem oblivious to the fact that no 2 player will hardly ever have the same equal skill. People also seem oblivious to the fact that player skill across the entire player base will have varying skill levels.

but just stating the obvious bro. in an ideal scenario, the discrepancy exists between sucky gear and good gear – that one is sucky and one is good.

you could through the skill level card all you want provided that the gears are statless. but the case is not. numbers are numbers. high is high and low is low.

skill discrepancy can be gauged though if they have both the same gear and same build choices. the ones who kills fast and die less is obviously skilled.

I know and understand your point. It’s just that the ideal situation hardly ever comes by, and the status quo is far different from this ideal situation that most people have. And that’s the biggest problem. How can we theorycraft about an ideal situation when the status quo is not even remotely close?

ProxyDamage.9826:

This has been discussed to death and back.

It’s pretty simple: most people of any value or relevance think it’s a good idea, bad players and leeches think it’s the devil cause they’re afraid they can’t be carried anymore. Good players think it’s a good idea/don’t care because, worse case scenario, they just don’t party with people they wouldn’t want to party with anyways. Crappy players know they’ll take longer to find a party and it’ll mostly be others like them, so nobody will drag them along.

Done to death. This particular horse isn’t even a carcass anymore but a fine paste. Game needs inspect for better pugging. Will, hopefully, get it eventually, but hardly a priority. Meanwhile just try to stick with partying with people you know. As of right now I don’t join random parties unless I know more others in it, and that we’re all good enough to carry the rest. And usually when one of us is the leader so we can kick any dead weight “too heavy” to carry.

Judgmental at it’s finest… So all the GOOD PLAYERS are the ones who want it or don’t care if it is added.. and all the BAD PLAYERS are the ones who are against it and want to be carried.. Hum did I just sum that up right? Not one time have I ever expected to be carried through a kitten kittening dungeon. Not one time have I ever wanted a piggy back ride. I do my share in the dungeon. Better be careful with that boot of yours… You know karma has it’s way coming back around.. Everyday you people prove to me just how pathetic this community is becoming.

Wethospu.6437:

I want game to be convenient. Is it common sense to ask about every little bit when I could just simply check it out by myself? Not to mention possibility to lie, etc.

So I’m an elitist when I care about people I’m playing with. But you aren’t, when you are telling how everyone should play/behave?
Personally I find it extremely selfish that every player should be ready to carry you, if you just want to stay bad/use “creative” build.

THIS THIS THIS.

Want this for PvE. Whoever doesn’t just lacks of skill and is angry that exlerienced groups won’t carry him anymore.
When i’m looking for experienced players in offensive gear because i don’t like beeing the obly useful player in a party, why would pvt warriors with 0/0/30/30/10 be allowed to join?

I would feel more of a need for this is the gear wasn’t so 1 dimensional.

inspecting people to make sure their gear is up to par is one thing. However, when it comes to gearing yourself there isn’t much up for debate.. I don’t feel there is enough variation at this point for an inspect to be necessary as far as knowing what gear you should have.

Fully support adding an inspect option into game.

Scrambles.2604:

lookitsandrea.8531:

Scrambles.2604:

Ordika.9513:

An auto inspect feature is only for being able to critique someone else’s build, which is rude and presumptuous, unless invited by the person being critiqued upon themselves.

This is a ridiculous claim. God forbid, i don’t have every piece of armor/weapon in the game memorized and i get curious as to what that shiny thing that person has equipped might be.

Or maybe i see an Ele that looks like they have a similar set-up as me and i want to see what kind of sockets they have.

I mean, who does that? Just goes around, inspecting people’s gear, for the sole purpose of making you feel bad. If someone exhibits that kind of behavior, it’s not because of /inspect, it’s probably because they are a bad person.

Whisper that player and ask? I’ve done this before, and players have been more than helpful.

I’ve done this before and not gotten a response :/ It would be much easier for everyone to not have to bother them at all.

You mean it would be much easier for you just take the info you want and be on your way regardless how the other party felt about it.. By them not responding was their way of letting you know they don’t want to be inspected.

I fully suppose an OPTIONAL inspect addition to the game, where I can check a box that says “No, the person wanting to be carried by people with better gear than themselves and/or the uncreative person who wants to steal my build will not be allowed to do so”. So that if they try to look at my stuff, they see nothing. If they don’t want to run with me because of that? GOOD! It saved me the trouble of dealing with a fail player, anyhow.

They get their inspect, I get my privacy AND my sanity from not having to deal with them. Everyone is happy.

Tolmos.8395:

I fully suppose an OPTIONAL inspect addition to the game, where I can check a box that says “No, the person wanting to be carried by people with better gear than themselves and/or the uncreative person who wants to steal my build will not be allowed to do so”. So that if they try to look at my stuff, they see nothing. If they don’t want to run with me because of that? GOOD! It saved me the trouble of dealing with a fail player, anyhow.

They get their inspect, I get my privacy AND my sanity from not having to deal with them. Everyone is happy.

yeah, i can agree to this. im doing fine with dungeons without anyone specifically knowing my build. The after effects of otherwise, I wont speculate but neither would i care to experience and find out. if there has to be an /inspect, i want the option to say no to it.

shimmerless.4560:

it’s just not really anyone’s business what I decide to run,

Of course it’s those in your groups business to know what you run. You could essentially be totally wasting their time in PVT with a bad build that you call “creative”. Why should they carry someone who is a dead weight and is providing no meaningful contribution.

shimmerless.4560:

Flissy.4093:

shimmerless.4560:

it’s just not really anyone’s business what I decide to run,

Of course it’s those in your groups business to know what you run. You could essentially be totally wasting their time in PVT with a bad build that you call “creative”. Why should they carry someone who is a dead weight and is providing no meaningful contribution.

If they wanted my gear they were quite welcome to request a ping, and even if (for whatever reason) Zerks didn’t satisfy them they can ask me to leave,

Players can “lie” about their pinged gear. They could have a Zerker set in their bag while using PVT set with the exact same skin and you have no way of knowing.

Flissy.4093:

shimmerless.4560:

it’s just not really anyone’s business what I decide to run,

Of course it’s those in your groups business to know what you run. You could essentially be totally wasting their time in PVT with a bad build that you call “creative”. Why should they carry someone who is a dead weight and is providing no meaningful contribution.

amen

• Rubs temples. *

For some reason, I allowed myself to read ten pages of this before I decided to myself, enough is enough. Say something.

• Inhale* tl;dr version of this entire debate thats swung wildly from one idea to another like some great, glorious pendulumn on very shaky supports swinging back and forth making the entire room shake.

Ok, maybe not. But…

All I’m seeing is this. On one hand, we’ll call them the Yes-Inspectors want /inspect. To me, whose casual and has played in the hardcore OMGMEETREQSORGETOUT groups… I don’t see the point of inspect. You can gather. You can stand there, open character screen and oggle at their stuff. Sure alot of MMOs have/had this. Or they can link you stuff from afar ( EDIT HERE. Spelling). Theres absolutely NO DIFFERENCE, at least, in my eyes. Its like arguing that, " I have a car already to get me to the super market faster, but it wouldn’t hurt to have a second car just in case. " You don’t really need it. Thats my opinion.

For the Non-Inspectors. Sure. They can see your gear. Sure, it feels like an invasion of privacy, but maybe I’m just numb to it. They open a window, see what exotics, or rares, or greens your wearing. In general gameplay, I’ve very, very rarely ran across people that inspected me and go, " Scrubgearnooblolol. " or the likes. If people are running past you in Orr and the like doing that, well, community is worse off than most people are admitting. >_> Then again, f2p is f2p, you run across all kinds.

Now with that said. I’m personally against /inspect for skill builds. Absolutely. I don’t care if someone sees my gear, I’m wearing that " out in the open. " anyhow. Maybe thats an rp habit of mine. I don’t know. But my skill build…

Maybe I want what I’m using a secret and hush hush. Maybe I’m not using a cookie cutter-build and don’t want the annoyance of some groupie screaming OMGAH I DIDN’T SEE THAT ON FORUMS U ARE SPESHIUL SNOWFLAKE YOU SUCK. Maybe I don’t want to sit there and patiently explain why this skill compliments this skill, or that skill will synergize with this skill. I’d rather just NOT deal with that kind of a headache.
In my experience with just about every stat based MMO I’ve ever played, if someone is able to annoy me by trying to pick everything I do apart with the skillbuild, then its not worth my time or effort to put up with them for any length of time than whats required to be polite. Putting up with them through a dungeon is beyond my time limit for being polite.

Seeing my gear to see if I’m completely undergeared and will get one shot is fine. I don’t care either way personally.

My skillbuild is my personal buisness. If you’re so insistant on knowing everything about me, from what I had for breakfast that morning then I might be willing to tell you. I just don’t feel having everything I’ve done with my character on public display for some kitten to rant and rave about is benefecial to anybody. If you want to know someone’s skillbuild, ask. Its not hard to say x/x/x/x/x. Not a cookie cutter number to you? No problem. Say No thanks in IM.

Vayne.8563:

The reason it shouldn’t be in the game is the same reason countries have gun laws.

You don’t give people the tools to commit crimes, unless you want them to commit crimes.

You might say, well not wanting to play with people who aren’t good isn’t a crime…and that’s true. But it makes for a lousy community. I don’t believe Anet will ever allow it in the game, because of how they feel about community.

All my wat… I’ve seen some good and bad arguments on both sides here, but you just took the price of potatoest argument in this entire thread…

You just compared inspecting someone’s gear to potentially lethal crimes and gun laws.

I again repeat what I said before:

As someone against /inspect, I would be all for it if it is optional. No one loses in that situation, except

A) People on the “for /inspect” side who want to steal looks and builds from folks who don’t want to share by abusing that feature
B) People on the “against /inspect” side who want to lie their way into a group that doesn’t want them.

By allowing me to optionally block being inspected, two things are achieved: I safeguard my build from prying eyes, ESPECIALLY in the case that I find one that is better than the current status quo; Those who want me to link my build/gear can see early that I have no desire to do so, and can treat me as if I have poor gear and decide not to run with me.

Everyone, except the 2 groups above, wins. I don’t have to give up my builds, and those who care about gear can just assume that I’m running all greens and not group with me. We each save each other grief, and off we go.

Aion got it right by having it optional. I support THAT implementation of the feature.

Tolmos.8395:

I again repeat what I said before:

As someone against /inspect, I would be all for it if it is optional. No one loses in that situation, except

A) People on the “for /inspect” side who want to steal looks and builds from folks who don’t want to share by abusing that feature
B) People on the “against /inspect” side who want to lie their way into a group that doesn’t want them.

By allowing me to optionally block being inspected, two things are achieved: I safeguard my build from prying eyes, ESPECIALLY in the case that I find one that is better than the current status quo; Those who want me to link my build/gear can see early that I have no desire to do so, and can treat me as if I have poor gear and decide not to run with me.

Everyone, except the 2 groups above, wins. I don’t have to give up my builds, and those who care about gear can just assume that I’m running all greens and not group with me. We each save each other grief, and off we go.

Aion got it right by having it optional. I support THAT implementation of the feature.

I agree, but the default option should be “allow inspect.” If it either is an issue for you or becomes an issue, you can remove the option to be inspected.

I feel the issue is being blown out of proportion…i mean you don’t see WoW players standing up saying “Remove inspect! It has single-handedly ruined our gameplay experience!” Heck, if i remember correctly, “the armory” was a pretty popular addition to the game, as well.

I wont say your concerns are illegitimate but…well, actually that is what i’m saying. Your concerns are illegitimate.

Scrambles.2604:

Tolmos.8395:

I again repeat what I said before:

As someone against /inspect, I would be all for it if it is optional. No one loses in that situation, except

A) People on the “for /inspect” side who want to steal looks and builds from folks who don’t want to share by abusing that feature
B) People on the “against /inspect” side who want to lie their way into a group that doesn’t want them.

By allowing me to optionally block being inspected, two things are achieved: I safeguard my build from prying eyes, ESPECIALLY in the case that I find one that is better than the current status quo; Those who want me to link my build/gear can see early that I have no desire to do so, and can treat me as if I have poor gear and decide not to run with me.

Everyone, except the 2 groups above, wins. I don’t have to give up my builds, and those who care about gear can just assume that I’m running all greens and not group with me. We each save each other grief, and off we go.

Aion got it right by having it optional. I support THAT implementation of the feature.

I agree, but the default option should be “allow inspect.” If it either is an issue for you or becomes an issue, you can remove the option to be inspected.

I feel the issue is being blown out of proportion…i mean you don’t see WoW players standing up saying “Remove inspect! It has single-handedly ruined our gameplay experience!” Heck, if i remember correctly, “the armory” was a pretty popular addition to the game, as well.

I wont say your concerns are illegitimate but…well, actually that is what i’m saying. You’re concerns are illegitimate.

Gearscore had already done the damage before the armory really came into prominence. The Armory inflated it and everyone learned to live with it, by playing the accepted class/spec/gear combo.

Using WoW as an example actually legitimizes the concerns, because those tools lead to faster homogenization.

Ordika.9513:

Scrambles.2604:

Tolmos.8395:

I again repeat what I said before:

As someone against /inspect, I would be all for it if it is optional. No one loses in that situation, except

A) People on the “for /inspect” side who want to steal looks and builds from folks who don’t want to share by abusing that feature
B) People on the “against /inspect” side who want to lie their way into a group that doesn’t want them.

By allowing me to optionally block being inspected, two things are achieved: I safeguard my build from prying eyes, ESPECIALLY in the case that I find one that is better than the current status quo; Those who want me to link my build/gear can see early that I have no desire to do so, and can treat me as if I have poor gear and decide not to run with me.

Everyone, except the 2 groups above, wins. I don’t have to give up my builds, and those who care about gear can just assume that I’m running all greens and not group with me. We each save each other grief, and off we go.

Aion got it right by having it optional. I support THAT implementation of the feature.

I agree, but the default option should be “allow inspect.” If it either is an issue for you or becomes an issue, you can remove the option to be inspected.

I feel the issue is being blown out of proportion…i mean you don’t see WoW players standing up saying “Remove inspect! It has single-handedly ruined our gameplay experience!” Heck, if i remember correctly, “the armory” was a pretty popular addition to the game, as well.

I wont say your concerns are illegitimate but…well, actually that is what i’m saying. You’re concerns are illegitimate.

Gearscore had already done the damage before the armory really came into prominence. The Armory inflated it and everyone learned to live with it, by playing the accepted class/spec/gear combo.

Using WoW as an example actually legitimizes the concerns, because those tools lead to faster homogenization.

I guess i could see you point, since performance in WoW is mainly based around skill and performace in GW2 is mostly based around gear. /sarcasm.

I would love for you to explain “those tools lead to faster homogenization.” Because in WoW, people were pidgeon-holed into gear/specific builds because content was so difficult, people couldn’t figure out how to beat it without using the most optimal set-ups possible for each class.

Yet in GW2, almost every build/gear set can be successful and has proven to be viable for clearing any content, so long as you can dodge at the appropriate time.

Scrambles.2604:

I wont say your concerns are illegitimate but…well, actually that is what i’m saying. You’re concerns are illegitimate.

My concerns are only illegitimate to people who are no good at making builds or have no desire to do so. Those of us who spend a great deal of time number crunching to create builds that are better than those cookie cutters you find laying around on forums have a great deal to lose by others being able to see what that build is. And builds do include stat distribution, which is directly controlled via the armor you are wearing.

So to the average casual player, I do suppose my concerns would seem illegitimate. For me, at least, I would stop playing this game the moment a non-optional inspect was added, simply because it would remove a large portion of why I play. It wouldn’t be a rage quit, but rather a “With the removal of that competition, I have little more to do in this game”. One more major feature that I love killed for the sake of casual gamer.

So, since I like this game and particularly like that aspect of the game, I will continue to voice my “illegitimate concerns” in hopes that they are kept in mind when this feature inevitably sees the light of day.

Bright.9160:

Vayne.8563:

The reason it shouldn’t be in the game is the same reason countries have gun laws.

You don’t give people the tools to commit crimes, unless you want them to commit crimes.

You might say, well not wanting to play with people who aren’t good isn’t a crime…and that’s true. But it makes for a lousy community. I don’t believe Anet will ever allow it in the game, because of how they feel about community.

All my wat… I’ve seen some good and bad arguments on both sides here, but you just took the price of potatoest argument in this entire thread…

You just compared inspecting someone’s gear to potentially lethal crimes and gun laws.

I’m comparing providing tools to people who will misuse them. The severity isn’t the issue. Guns don’t kill people. People do. And an inspect tool won’t create an elitist…but it will make it easier for people to be elitist. It will encourage elitist behavior.

The tools a company gives you, trains you as a player. In Guild Wars 2 everyone can rez and it adds something to the community. If they add an inspect, it will take something away from the community.

The analogy was just that…an analogy. If you don’t get what I’m trying to say, well, sorry about that. But just as a gun as a tool that can/will be misused, so is an inspect option.

Not to say that misuing a gun isn’t more serious…but that’s another conversation.

Tolmos.8395:

Scrambles.2604:

I wont say your concerns are illegitimate but…well, actually that is what i’m saying. You’re concerns are illegitimate.

My concerns are only illegitimate to people who are no good at making builds or have no desire to do so. Those of us who spend a great deal of time number crunching to create builds that are better than those cookie cutters you find laying around on forums have a great deal to lose by others being able to see what that build is. And builds do include stat distribution, which is directly controlled via the armor you are wearing.

So to the average casual player, I do suppose my concerns would seem illegitimate. For me, at least, I would stop playing this game the moment a non-optional inspect was added, simply because it would remove a large portion of why I play. It wouldn’t be a rage quit, but rather a “With the removal of that competition, I have little more to do in this game”. One more major feature that I love killed for the sake of casual gamer.

So, since I like this game and particularly like that aspect of the game, I will continue to voice my “illegitimate concerns” in hopes that they are kept in mind when this feature inevitably sees the light of day.

So, if someone happens to like the way you built, copies your build and enjoys the game on their own, that somehow takes away from your ability to enjoy the game?

What i’m getting is that your enjoyment of this game is contingent on the failure of others.

I mean, i too love putting a lot of time and work into builds, but i also enjoy sharing that information with the community, in an effort to let everyone else enjoy the game as much as me.

How do you think the community would be effected if Dulfy stopped publishing in-game info on her site, in an effort to keep that info to herself?

so, yes, based on these reasons i still find your concerns illegitimate. MMOs dont thrive through selfishness.

edit-

Tolmos.8395:

“Those of us who spend a great deal of time number crunching to create builds that are better than those cookie cutters you find laying around on forums have a great deal to lose by others being able to see what that build is.”

What do you really have to lose by sharing your awesome builds?

Scrambles.2604:

So, if someone happens to like the way you built, copies your build and enjoys the game on their own, that somehow takes away from your ability to enjoy the game?

What i’m getting is that your enjoyment of this game is contingent on the failure of others.

I mean, i too love putting a lot of time and work into builds, but i also enjoy sharing that information with the community, in an effort to let everyone else enjoy the game as much as me.

How do you think the community would be effected if Dulfy stopped publishing in-game info on her site, in an effort to keep that info to herself?

so, yes, based on these reasons i still find your concerns illegitimate. MMOs dont thrive through selfishness.

edit-

Tolmos.8395:

“Those of us who spend a great deal of time number crunching to create builds that are better than those cookie cutters you find laying around on forums have a great deal to lose by others being able to see what that build is.”

What do you really have to lose by sharing your awesome builds?

A) I play WvW and SPVP, so yes, my enjoyment is based on others losing to me (or rather, in this case, a build that I made). Isn’t that what competition is all about? Are you suggesting that in a robot building competition, that everyone should be completely open about all their designs early on so that both sides have completely identical robots? No, of course not. This is a competition. You compete in a competition, meaning that someone wins and someone loses.

If I lose, that’s acceptable as well, as it tells me that I need to redo by build OR become more skilled as a player. Which will be evident in the way that I lose.

B) “It is not enough to succeed. Others must fail.”

So yea, at the risk… no, no risk involved. At the truth that I will sound like a total kitten- yes, it would ruin my enjoyment if someone else stole my build and beat me with it, or outperformed against me with my own build in a dungeon that we were in together with it, etc. Because the competition of making a good build is what I enjoy.

It’s 1 way with me, though. I don’t hold it against others if their builds do not compare to mine. I do, however, hold it against myself if my build doesn’t compare to theirs. I understand that not everyone enjoys build making, so I don’t intend to laugh in their face if theirs isn’t up to par. I do, however, know that I spent a great deal of time working on my build so if it loses, I need to do some reworking on it.

Every MMO I enjoy is a build making game. And I don’t mean build making as in the casual versions you find in WoW. I mean Shadowbane, Guild Wars 1 and EVE Online type build making. GW2 is a much simpler version, but it exists still and gives me something to play with in a competitive manner. I’d like to keep it that way.

Vayne.8563:

Bright.9160:

Vayne.8563:

The reason it shouldn’t be in the game is the same reason countries have gun laws.

You don’t give people the tools to commit crimes, unless you want them to commit crimes.

You might say, well not wanting to play with people who aren’t good isn’t a crime…and that’s true. But it makes for a lousy community. I don’t believe Anet will ever allow it in the game, because of how they feel about community.

All my wat… I’ve seen some good and bad arguments on both sides here, but you just took the price of potatoest argument in this entire thread…

You just compared inspecting someone’s gear to potentially lethal crimes and gun laws.

I’m comparing providing tools to people who will misuse them. The severity isn’t the issue. Guns don’t kill people. People do. And an inspect tool won’t create an elitist…but it will make it easier for people to be elitist. It will encourage elitist behavior.

The tools a company gives you, trains you as a player. In Guild Wars 2 everyone can rez and it adds something to the community. If they add an inspect, it will take something away from the community.

The analogy was just that…an analogy. If you don’t get what I’m trying to say, well, sorry about that. But just as a gun as a tool that can/will be misused, so is an inspect option.

Not to say that misuing a gun isn’t more serious…but that’s another conversation.

Vayne, I quite often agree with you, but this I cannot. It is a very poor analogy.

You could have another analogy that shows the exact opposite, in fact I did with the car thing a few pages back. To sum up, I said that not having inspect, because a few people will be elitist, is like saying that no one should be allowed to drive, because a few people drink and drive. I imagine you cannot agree with that?

Where the difference comes is the severity of the risk and the intent of the addition. The intent of adding an inspect feature is not wholly bound to being an elitist or demanding others use a certain build. Whereas guns are only created for the intent of shooting and killing. (Cars are definitely not created with the intent of drinking and driving)

The risk that someone will die from a gun is well above and beyond the risk of elitist behaviour in a game. That is because risk = chance * severity. I cannot speak for chance, but the severity is quite a bit higher for killing than elitism. As for the driving situation, I believe that the chance of elitist behaviour is greater than that of drinking and driving accidents, but dying in a car accident is more severe than elitist behaviour.

Anyway, naturally you know that guns and killing are worse than elitist behaviour, my point is to clarify that your analogy is not better than my analogy and they are both opposite in their claims.

Tolmos.8395:

Scrambles.2604:

So, if someone happens to like the way you built, copies your build and enjoys the game on their own, that somehow takes away from your ability to enjoy the game?

What i’m getting is that your enjoyment of this game is contingent on the failure of others.

I mean, i too love putting a lot of time and work into builds, but i also enjoy sharing that information with the community, in an effort to let everyone else enjoy the game as much as me.

How do you think the community would be effected if Dulfy stopped publishing in-game info on her site, in an effort to keep that info to herself?

so, yes, based on these reasons i still find your concerns illegitimate. MMOs dont thrive through selfishness.

edit-

Tolmos.8395:

“Those of us who spend a great deal of time number crunching to create builds that are better than those cookie cutters you find laying around on forums have a great deal to lose by others being able to see what that build is.”

What do you really have to lose by sharing your awesome builds?

A) I play WvW and SPVP, so yes, my enjoyment is based on others losing to me (or rather, in this case, a build that I made). Isn’t that what competition is all about? Are you suggesting that in a robot building competition, that everyone should be completely open about all their designs early on so that both sides have completely identical robots? No, of course not. This is a competition. You compete in a competition, meaning that someone wins and someone loses.

If I lose, that’s acceptable as well, as it tells me that I need to redo by build OR become more skilled as a player. Which will be evident in the way that I lose.

B) “It is not enough to succeed. Others must fail.”

So yea, at the risk… no, no risk involved. At the truth that I will sound like a total kitten- yes, it would ruin my enjoyment if someone else stole my build and beat me with it, or outperformed against me with my own build in a dungeon that we were in together with it, etc. Because the competition of making a good build is what I enjoy.

It’s 1 way with me, though. I don’t hold it against others if their builds do not compare to mine. I do, however, hold it against myself if my build doesn’t compare to theirs. I understand that not everyone enjoys build making, so I don’t intend to laugh in their face if theirs isn’t up to par. I do, however, know that I spent a great deal of time working on my build so if it loses, I need to do some reworking on it.

Every MMO I enjoy is a build making game. And I don’t mean build making as in the casual versions you find in WoW. I mean Shadowbane, Guild Wars 1 and EVE Online type build making. GW2 is a much simpler version, but it exists still and gives me something to play with in a competitive manner. I’d like to keep it that way.

I guess i assumed /inspect would be limited to people on your side, anyone without a “red” name. Yeah, of course i don’t want people on other servers seeing my build in WvW, i guess i made the mistake of assuming that was a given.

Otherwise, i don’t see the harm of some lvl 10 that knows nothing about the game checking out your interesting spec in LA.

Most of the discussion has been directed towards PvE and dungeons. You don’t really want your dungeon teammates to have terrible builds do you? Wont that detract from your experience?