Guild Wars 2

While I love my Guardian, it is a pity that any one (or two or three) Professions are “required” for some people. The Guardian shouldn’t be an essential part of any group, much like there’s no need for “healer” or “tank” roles-their utility (which I don’t want to be nerfed, BTW) is too useful vs other Professions, so much that often one would be welcome in most parties, whereas for some other Professions, even one of them would be considered “dead weight” by elitists.

In short, I feel ALL Professions should be given something wonderful to add to a party, so that players that only care about efficiency are not able to justifiably discriminate among the “lesser” Professions. There shouldn’t be any so-called “bad” Profession in this game (of course I understand there’s no truly “bad” Profession, but it’s a hard concept to grasp if you only follow youtube videos, math charts, and metas.) Let’s hope for some PvE improvements to the more “hated” Professions moving forwards.

Again, nothing against the Guardian-it has weaknesses to be sure, but it’s strengths are such that these don’t matter much, to be honest (at least PvE-wise I find it pretty easy to play by miles vs all other Professions, including Warrior.)

haviz.1340:

Daywolf.2630:

Then you limit your content. I don’t even fully melee my warrior. Go into AC, Grenth or TA Atherblade, try sticking to melee with short ranged. At times everyone needs to get some real distance while still providing some damage. If all you are doing is champ zergs, you’re set. It’s no secret guard lacks substantial long-range, it’s by design so everyone doesn’t just run with guards as the OP suggests.

I’ve done AC and new TA in full melee. What is the problem with it? You shouldn’t include world bosses into that because:

• there’s too many particles on them making dodging much harder
• the boss is upscaled to ridiculous proportions
• you can go afk with ranged weapons anyway so no one cares about that
• even if you want to challenge yourself, your 2-3x higher damage in melee won’t change much because of 100 zerglings with cleric’s/ptv gear using staves.

100 people at Grenth?! Never saw that. It’s too hard for most people that just want to zerg in at the last moment for a chest. Like risen priest? My warrior can solo that, not my guard. And getting some good range with that is valuable.

TA boss was the same, big range at times with a blood rifle. And that going regen warrior (+food) that is always last man standing. Even last boss in AC, good range or you stand under falling debris too much. Lots of times, I’ve done the same content with all classes, many builds, guard has it’s uses, but it’s simply not the end all be all of classes. If it were, everyone would be playing it and it’d be facing a huge nerf.

Daywolf.2630:

100 people at Grenth?! Never saw that. It’s too hard for most people that just want to zerg in at the last moment for a chest. Like risen priest? My warrior can solo that, not my guard. And getting some good range with that is valuable.

TA boss was the same, big range at times with a blood rifle. And that going regen warrior (+food) that is always last man standing. Even last boss in AC, good range or you stand under falling debris too much. Lots of times, I’ve done the same content with all classes, many builds, guard has it’s uses, but it’s simply not the end all be all of classes. If it were, everyone would be playing it and it’d be facing a huge nerf.

Soloing most bosses at range is trivial. Bosses in TA die in 15s if you go full melee with proper dps builds. At the last boss even that sylvari npc says you should melee him.

haviz.1340:

Soloing most bosses at range is trivial. Bosses in TA die in 15s if you go full melee with proper dps builds. At the last boss even that sylvari npc says you should melee him.

Wat?? You can solo the TA aetherblade boss in 15sec?? Please share how! Heck, I’m always just trying to get off the electrified floor w/o hitting those twirly things as I fly 50ft across the room in continuous waves. Then I look back and everyone is ded! Wind up kiting him around, avoiding more twirly things, as I try to revive everyone… someone. And that’s when he’s not bugged into full armor buffs yet, then it gets interesting.

Daywolf.2630:

Wat?? You can solo the TA aetherblade boss in 15sec?? Please share how! Heck, I’m always just trying to get off the electrified floor w/o hitting those twirly things as I fly 50ft across the room in continuous waves. Then I look back and everyone is ded! Wind up kiting him around, avoiding more twirly things, as I try to revive everyone… someone. And that’s when he’s not bugged into full armor buffs yet, then it gets interesting.

I should have used new paragraph. What I meant is that you can kill most bosses in about 15s with a decent group.

haviz.1340:

Daywolf.2630:

Wat?? You can solo the TA aetherblade boss in 15sec?? Please share how! Heck, I’m always just trying to get off the electrified floor w/o hitting those twirly things as I fly 50ft across the room in continuous waves. Then I look back and everyone is ded! Wind up kiting him around, avoiding more twirly things, as I try to revive everyone… someone. And that’s when he’s not bugged into full armor buffs yet, then it gets interesting.

I should have used new paragraph. What I meant is that you can kill most bosses in about 15s with a decent group.

You mean a bunch of zerker warriors with a guard or a mesmer. yeah… wasn’t into that really, nor was my guild. I’d need to search around for the 15s video on the TA aether path boss, and no telling how many times it took. My warrior isn’t even full zerk, has soldier mixed in, since I run with mixed groups I play with a lot… like normal GW2.

Daywolf.2630:

You mean a bunch of zerker warriors with a guard or a mesmer. yeah… wasn’t into that really, nor was my guild. I’d need to search around for the 15s video on the TA aether path boss, and no telling how many times it took. My warrior isn’t even full zerk, has soldier mixed in, since I run with mixed groups I play with a lot… like normal GW2.

No, I don’t mean a bunch of warriors with mesmer and guardian. You can check a video of lupi in my signature that has 1 warrior, 1 mesmer and 0 guardians.

colesy.8490:

Guardian 1h sword autoattack can go something like 6k-6k-15k which is around 11k DPS.

Warrior axe will go something like 5k-5k-5k-5k-5k-10k which is less DPS than guard since axe auto chain is 3.6s versus the 2.5s of sword chain, plus the damage is backloaded so if you don’t get that final swing your DPS drops further.

More like 7.8k 7.8k 15k, resulting in 12.24k dps.
Warrior 6.2k 6.4k 6.4k 6k 6k 13k, resulting in 12.22k dps.
This would be more realistic in a situation with same buffs. Unscathed Contender not being met. Adding Unscathed Contender’s 20% damage gets guardian dps to 14.688k with only sword auto chain. Considering optimal rotations for both, guardian and warrior and a huge sized target, guardian dps would go to ~17.6k dps whereas warrior dps would go to ~14.0k dps.

If you can’t keep up unscathed contender its 14.68k (guardian) vs 14.02k (warrior) in optimal rotations. I was considering a guardian rotation resulting in a 20% dps increase and a warrior rotation as 15% dps increase.

Yaki.9563:

Draknar.5748:

Lunar Sunset.8742:

I think people are mistaking the forum warrior with warrior. Yes, guardians can out dps a warrior but cannot out dps a forum warrior. I hope that clears up the confusion.

Zerker warrior vs. Zerker guardian. Pretty sure warrior takes it every time in sustainable DPS. Enough people have claimed Guardians out-DPS warrior on this forum for me to demand evidence. Doubt it will ever surface though. Everyone wants to talk theory, nothing put into practice.

Your evidence has yet to surface either. Funny.

I didn’t realize I needed evidence for saying I’m “pretty sure” about something. On face value that implies some level of uncertainty otherwise I would have used a universally definitive term…

Go on home now, Yaki. Your services are no longer needed here.

green plum.7514:

It is rather interesting to see how man people who actively play the game totally misjudge it. Myself, I am a casual player and I don’t do much PvE, but I have been closely following the discussions around the game since BWE1. One big problem with the game is that most people just focus on one single class (that they play) and are ignorant of the subtleties of the other classes + blindly repeat the myths they hear elsewhere.

The fact is, colesy and others are absolutely right. Guardian sustain DPS > Warrior sustain DPS (in a bully buffed group). Its also easily to explain why most people find it hard to believe. First of all, Guardian is strongly associated with support roles. Secondly, Warrior perceivably hit higher numbers – what people forget is that 42K 100b has a cast time of 3.5s, which results in effective DPS of 12k for 100b only, but you also have to factor in the cooldown. Thirdly, Warriors clearly have higher DPS when played solo or in not min-maxed groups, because Warriors have easy access to offence buffs.

Colesy is also spot-on when talking about zerker gear. However, you must remember that this is about min-maxing! Glass cannon groups are the most efficient in PvE, but this requires very skilled players. Players of average skill (or noobs like me) are better off running defensive builds, which allow more margin for error. Under these circumstances, Warrior DPS will be higher again – simply because Guardian must sacrifice more DPS to get defence.

Tl;DR: indeed, in a properly min-maxed group, with highly skilled player Guardian DPS > Warrior DPS. Most players won’t get there though. Personally, I never cared about min-maxing. I just want to enjoy the game. I play guardian because of cool blue effects. I also play Warrior, because stuns and mobility is fun

Nicely said Green Plum.

Like them or not Colesy and No Trigger are correct. Need proof? The tests are easy peasy to do yourself. In fact I recommend doing the tests personally so that it can be seen firsthand. If that is too boring or time consuming or your just lazy or whatever, go to the dungeon forums, ask for the math + video. Someone will respond.

Why play other classes? Well that is easy to answer, because other classes are fun to play as well.

If you tell us exactly what class to play, exactly what weapons to use, exactly what build to use, exactly what skills to use and when to use them you are killing the fun of the game. Go away.

Tarinis.6054:

High survivability, excellent damage, wanted in groups all the time. Only con: boring as hell

fixed the OP

Been my main since release, levelled a warr’, thief and ele’, but my necro has been more fun than all of them by a country mile.

All these people who say guardian is boring must be standing there autoattacking with their staff, pvt gear and selfish AH trait.

A zerker guardian is a lifesaver in a incompetent pug while your cleric shout heal warrior won’t carry anyone

They are also undead in spvp and still deal great amount of damage to kill other classes.
GW = Guardian Warrior deal with it. They will always be op against other classes in both pve and pvp.

So many ignorant posts,
- zerker guardians using scepter do out dps warriors on the long run.
(45+ sec of hiting the same target, the guardian will have done more damage) (if its a race to see who deals the most damage in 10 second then the warrior would win because thats how their skills work)

-the only higher dmg dealer for a teq fight above a pvt guardian is a ele who pops conjured weapons and if the guardian picks up the conjured weapon to, then the guardian outdps the ele by far. (guardian have damage increase of 20%on aegis 10% on scepter 10% on foe who has condition, all this on a weapon who cast 1 auto atack and an instant 15 hit that does 6+ times the auto atack )

-There is so much hate from people toward guardian, like calling AH a selfish build, i can only think of single digit IQs thinking that a trait like this doesn´t encourage the guardian to apply boons to the party.

And back to the op topic, a guardian only game would suck, and patches come and go nerfing what they don´t find to fit on how they want this game. Aslong as turbo noob parties asking for 4 warrior and 1 mesmer exist, i would not be so worried about guardians getting nerfed anytime soon.

haviz.1340:

No, I don’t mean a bunch of warriors with mesmer and guardian. You can check a video of lupi in my signature that has 1 warrior, 1 mesmer and 0 guardians.

bah you’re BS’ing me hah. Do you even know what the TA eatherblade path is? Hey why not post video of a group of guards taking down a kitten (as in little kitty) in 15s to make your point? hehehe

Benkei.6293:

So many ignorant posts,
- zerker guardians using scepter do out dps warriors on the long run.
(45+ sec of hiting the same target, the guardian will have done more damage) (if its a race to see who deals the most damage in 10 second then the warrior would win because thats how their skills work)

-the only higher dmg dealer for a teq fight above a pvt guardian is a ele who pops conjured weapons and if the guardian picks up the conjured weapon to, then the guardian outdps the ele by far. (guardian have damage increase of 20%on aegis 10% on scepter 10% on foe who has condition, all this on a weapon who cast 1 auto atack and an instant 15 hit that does 6+ times the auto atack )

-There is so much hate from people toward guardian, like calling AH a selfish build, i can only think of single digit IQs thinking that a trait like this doesn´t encourage the guardian to apply boons to the party.

And back to the op topic, a guardian only game would suck, and patches come and go nerfing what they don´t find to fit on how they want this game. Aslong as turbo noob parties asking for 4 warrior and 1 mesmer exist, i would not be so worried about guardians getting nerfed anytime soon.

You may as well play a signet guardian if you need some kind of lame encouragement to do you and your party a favour.

AH is for baddies who can’t dodge and want to facetank everything. You should be applying boons to your party all the time anyway.

Daywolf.2630:

bah you’re BS’ing me hah. Do you even know what the TA eatherblade path is? Hey why not post video of a group of guards taking down a kitten (as in little kitty) in 15s to make your point? hehehe

I tried to be reasonable but it seems you lack something.

Benkei.6293:

-the only higher dmg dealer for a teq fight above a pvt guardian is a ele who pops conjured weapons and if the guardian picks up the conjured weapon to, then the guardian outdps the ele by far. (guardian have damage increase of 20%on aegis 10% on scepter 10% on foe who has condition, all this on a weapon who cast 1 auto atack and an instant 15 hit that does 6+ times the auto atack )

First of all, scepter damage trait doesn’t work if you pick a bundle. Secondly, ele has more +% dmg traits.

haviz.1340:

Daywolf.2630:

bah you’re BS’ing me hah. Do you even know what the TA eatherblade path is? Hey why not post video of a group of guards taking down a kitten (as in little kitty) in 15s to make your point? hehehe

I tried to be reasonable but it seems you lack something.

Reasonable? You loose total track of our conversation? You called me out on TA aetherblade boss, said 15s etc. I’m talking about the difficulty with warrior vs. guard vs. whatever, hard content etc etc etc. I gave three content examples, you called out my TA aetherblade path and said like pfff 15 seconds! Then you use a random kitten (as in little kitty) video to make some point… nothing of which to the actual conversation. And you believe you are being “reasonable”? Yes, I lack “something” here, a two way conversation lol
Moving on now heh

Daywolf.2630:

Reasonable? You loose total track of our conversation? You called me out on TA aetherblade boss, said 15s etc. I’m talking about the difficulty with warrior vs. guard vs. whatever, hard content etc etc etc. I gave three content examples, you called out my TA aetherblade path and said like pfff 15 seconds! Then you use a random kitten (as in little kitty) video to make some point… nothing of which to the actual conversation. And you believe you are being “reasonable”? Yes, I lack “something” here, a two way conversation lol
Moving on now heh

I said you can kill most of the dungeon bosses, including new ta path in 15s without using just warriors with mesmer and guardian. I see it’s a hard concept to grasp.

haviz.1340:

Daywolf.2630:

Reasonable? You loose total track of our conversation? You called me out on TA aetherblade boss, said 15s etc. I’m talking about the difficulty with warrior vs. guard vs. whatever, hard content etc etc etc. I gave three content examples, you called out my TA aetherblade path and said like pfff 15 seconds! Then you use a random kitten (as in little kitty) video to make some point… nothing of which to the actual conversation. And you believe you are being “reasonable”? Yes, I lack “something” here, a two way conversation lol
Moving on now heh

I said you can kill most of the dungeon bosses, including new ta path in 15s without using just warriors with mesmer and guardian. I see it’s a hard concept to grasp.

So throw out insults when all else fails? Yes, kitten bosses can be killed fast, your video proves that, as if it mattered to anything pertaining to the actual conversation. So you are saying that is the TA aetherblade boss? Legendary Clockheart? You “can” do that room in 15s you are saying. I can throw a rock at the moon. Where is the video? And you said doing it with melee. I never said bosses cant be done in 15s, I pointed to specific content, you are adding something entirely different to what has been said. That doesn’t work with me.

tl;dr

me: Guard is at a disadvantage due to lack of ranged attack. Such as on the TA aetherblad path boss, I had to fall back with my warrior a bit and use blood rifle, to not take the huge hits it deals.

You: I said you can kill most of the dungeon bosses, including new ta path in 15s without using just warriors with mesmer and guardian. I see it’s a hard concept to grasp. (provides video of some other kitten fight)

Daywolf.2630:

haviz.1340:

Daywolf.2630:

Reasonable? You loose total track of our conversation? You called me out on TA aetherblade boss, said 15s etc. I’m talking about the difficulty with warrior vs. guard vs. whatever, hard content etc etc etc. I gave three content examples, you called out my TA aetherblade path and said like pfff 15 seconds! Then you use a random kitten (as in little kitty) video to make some point… nothing of which to the actual conversation. And you believe you are being “reasonable”? Yes, I lack “something” here, a two way conversation lol
Moving on now heh

I said you can kill most of the dungeon bosses, including new ta path in 15s without using just warriors with mesmer and guardian. I see it’s a hard concept to grasp.

So throw out insults when all else fails? Yes, kitten bosses can be killed fast, your video proves that, as if it mattered to anything pertaining to the actual conversation. So you are saying that is the TA aetherblade boss? Legendary Clockheart? You “can” do that room in 15s you are saying. I can throw a rock at the moon. Where is the video? And you said doing it with melee. I never said bosses cant be done in 15s, I pointed to specific content, you are adding something entirely different to what has been said. That doesn’t work with me.

tl;dr

me: Guard is at a disadvantage due to lack of ranged attack. Such as on the TA aetherblad path boss, I had to fall back with my warrior a bit and use blood rifle, to not take the huge hits it deals.

You: I said you can kill most of the dungeon bosses, including new ta path in 15s without using just warriors with mesmer and guardian. I see it’s a hard concept to grasp. (provides video of some other kitten fight)

In situations where I definitely have to go ranged, such as fire shaman in fractals. Scepter is the only way to go. So you are incorrect in saying that Guardians lack ranged attacks.

You should have instead said that Staff is horrible and Guardian shouldn’t be using it unless in open world farming to leech as much loot as possible….which is what I do.

Because they deal little damage?

Just held my own against 2 guardians on a non-bunker staff ele in sPvP. So I’d say their damage leaves something to be desired…

ThiBash.5634:

Because they deal little damage?

Just held my own against 2 guardians on a non-bunker staff ele in sPvP. So I’d say their damage leaves something to be desired…

I had to read your post twice because you have decided to move the goal post from Staff Guardian is garbage in pve to Staff Ele is awesome in pvp. That’s what you call grasping at straws.

Note* Im not saying Staff Ele in pve is bad. I am trying out a new build I found for Staff Ele and so far, while boring to play, deals pretty high dmg. Skill 2 on fire attunement is pretty awesome.

Caramel Ham.4891:

I had to read your post twice because you have decided to move the goal post from Staff Guardian is garbage in pve to Staff Ele is awesome in pvp. That’s what you call grasping at straws.

My reply was directed at the original post. You don’t have to tell me that it was a highly situational and rare occurance. I just felt like sharing it. :-)

My main reason for playing guardian though is that I find them extremely boring.

my warrior is waaaay more tanky then my guardian in the same Knight gear and doing way more dmg.

Umut.5471:

They are also undead in spvp and still deal great amount of damage to kill other classes.
GW = Guardian Warrior deal with it. They will always be op against other classes in both pve and pvp.

If you are having problems 1 vs 1 against Guardians as something else other than flamethrower Engineers I suggest you seriously reconsider the way you’re playing. There’s a reason every single Guardian in SPvP is a bunker.

Caramel Ham.4891:

In situations where I definitely have to go ranged, such as fire shaman in fractals. Scepter is the only way to go. So you are incorrect in saying that Guardians lack ranged attacks.

You should have instead said that Staff is horrible and Guardian shouldn’t be using it unless in open world farming to leech as much loot as possible….which is what I do.

You being serious? Why would I stick a sceptor into a perfectly fine swap slot? I can just use a vendor kit and salvage the scepter for dark matter. Vendor kit prolly more dps than a scepter, plus I can still have good melee weapons slotted. Or even a staff for group run speed. A scepter??

Scepter is the best ranged weapon in the game for single targed DPS in PvE, especially against big, static enemies (Tequila, Lupicus phase 1, TA final bosses, etc).

The only real issue of scepter is autoattack projectile being too slow and 2nd skill being useless or close to in PvP.

LastK.6158:

Benkei.6293:

So many ignorant posts,
- zerker guardians using scepter do out dps warriors on the long run.
(45+ sec of hiting the same target, the guardian will have done more damage) (if its a race to see who deals the most damage in 10 second then the warrior would win because thats how their skills work)

-the only higher dmg dealer for a teq fight above a pvt guardian is a ele who pops conjured weapons and if the guardian picks up the conjured weapon to, then the guardian outdps the ele by far. (guardian have damage increase of 20%on aegis 10% on scepter 10% on foe who has condition, all this on a weapon who cast 1 auto atack and an instant 15 hit that does 6+ times the auto atack )

-There is so much hate from people toward guardian, like calling AH a selfish build, i can only think of single digit IQs thinking that a trait like this doesn´t encourage the guardian to apply boons to the party.

And back to the op topic, a guardian only game would suck, and patches come and go nerfing what they don´t find to fit on how they want this game. Aslong as turbo noob parties asking for 4 warrior and 1 mesmer exist, i would not be so worried about guardians getting nerfed anytime soon.

You may as well play a signet guardian if you need some kind of lame encouragement to do you and your party a favour.

AH is for baddies who can’t dodge and want to facetank everything. You should be applying boons to your party all the time anyway.

So… you’re saying… it’s not possible for a pro player to use an AH build because he can…?

I feel like i’m talking to a frog in the well here since this kind of thinking is so 1-dimensional. Can you really not think of the limitless reasons why someone would use an AH build over whatever you prefer.

People use AH either out of habit or because they’re selfish and bad.

colesy.8490:

People use AH either out of habit or because they’re selfish and bad.

Again, it’s like you guys haven’t played any other aspect of the game at all.

If you’re on about PvP/WvW, then well we’re on about PvE. I’m sure AH is fine in WvW when you have a bunch of guys around you and sustain is more important than faceplanting and being the dreaded rallybot.

colesy.8490:

If you’re on about PvP/WvW, then well we’re on about PvE. I’m sure AH is fine in WvW when you have a bunch of guys around you and sustain is more important than faceplanting and being the dreaded rallybot.

Ah, so you do know about some other aspects. Regardless, even if it is just PvE, I can think of so many reasons and situations where an AH build may be preferred to be used over another.

One good example is saving downed allies while being able to tank a significant amount of damage from mobs. I have no doubt you can dodge every single damage from a mob, but you can’t be reving if you’re dodging. Then and again, maybe downing itself is considered selfish and the player should just have died instead because real pros never down am I right? But then this means it’s selfish play because there is no teamwork, everyone looks out for themselves and themselves only and it’s no different than playing with some NPCS (with the exception that NPCs probably will try to save you lol)… wait.. does that mean every single zerker build out there is a selfish build because it contributes nothing to other peoples survivability except for killing speed.

See what i’m saying, 1-dimensional thinking leads to these silly conclusions. The moment you guys said something was 100 % is where you went wrong.

I say the same thing to wvw/pvpers who say zerker build is a noob build and should never be used. There are situations for it to be used even if more tanky builds are usually preferred. e.g. small group roaming.

Daywolf.2630:

Caramel Ham.4891:

In situations where I definitely have to go ranged, such as fire shaman in fractals. Scepter is the only way to go. So you are incorrect in saying that Guardians lack ranged attacks.

You should have instead said that Staff is horrible and Guardian shouldn’t be using it unless in open world farming to leech as much loot as possible….which is what I do.

You being serious? Why would I stick a sceptor into a perfectly fine swap slot? I can just use a vendor kit and salvage the scepter for dark matter. Vendor kit prolly more dps than a scepter, plus I can still have good melee weapons slotted. Or even a staff for group run speed. A scepter??

First, you gotta specify if you are talking about pve or pvp. Pvp I know nothing about as I find both spvp and wvw as boring as throwing rocks in a river.

Let me answer you question since it seems like you never bothered to read what you just quoted.

“In situations where I definitely have to go ranged”

Also, scepter does a ton of dmg for it being a RANGED weapon. Obviously NOT a replacement for melee weapons.

Equipping a staff for the sole purpose of grp speed run is so worthless I do not even take the time to do so in PVE. Other classes can do it better than Guardians can without sacrificing 99% of dps. Sure I can unequip it and equip something else….but why bother? The only exceptions where staff is better is for farming events (leeching) and TA dungeon to run through the skippable parts (then instantly it goes back into my bag).

Lafiel.9372:

colesy.8490:

If you’re on about PvP/WvW, then well we’re on about PvE. I’m sure AH is fine in WvW when you have a bunch of guys around you and sustain is more important than faceplanting and being the dreaded rallybot.

Ah, so you do know about some other aspects. Regardless, even if it is just PvE, I can think of so many reasons and situations where an AH build may be preferred to be used over another.

One good example is saving downed allies while being able to tank a significant amount of damage from mobs. I have no doubt you can dodge every single damage from a mob, but you can’t be reving if you’re dodging. Then and again, maybe downing itself is considered selfish and the player should just have died instead because real pros never down am I right? But then this means it’s selfish play because there is no teamwork, everyone looks out for themselves and themselves only and it’s no different than playing with some NPCS (with the exception that NPCs probably will try to save you lol)… wait.. does that mean every single zerker build out there is a selfish build because it contributes nothing to other peoples survivability except for killing speed.

See what i’m saying, 1-dimensional thinking leads to these silly conclusions. The moment you guys said something was 100 % is where you went wrong.

I say the same thing to wvw/pvpers who say zerker build is a noob build and should never be used. There are situations for it to be used even if more tanky builds are usually preferred. e.g. small group roaming.

Sure you can run AH builds to run with noobs. But what about if I do not want to spec to just run with noobs? I have carried countless pugs, whom many were noobs, with my dps built Guardian, I do not have to revive every single one of the grp members to win. I just kill whatever is almost dead so that the player can rally off of it. Besides, my guardian can def survive reviving (not completely dead, downed) someone during a boss fight.

In your example, what if the player who is downed gets downed when literally the whole fight has broken down and everyone, except the AH guardian is barely surviving? AH Guardian will not be able to tank that much dmg…..unless hes full “tank” so therefore it was his lack of dps contribution that such a wipe was about to happen in the first place….among other factors.

So my Guardian can revive downed players. My Guardian can dps a lot to make up for noob players running pvt. I think of it this way, if in a fight, some players go down but at different times, I can def revive them….but if the other 4 have died (not downed but died), I already count as a wipe in most situations except the obvious soloable ones. Im sure an AH guardian would be no different.

To summarize. AH guardians in pve are pretty useless, even IF they might be helpful in one or two scenarios. We aren’t going to completely change out our spec and equipment just for those rare occasions.

One good example is saving downed allies while being able to tank a significant amount of damage from mobs. I have no doubt you can dodge every single damage from a mob, but you can’t be reving if you’re dodging. Then and again, maybe downing itself is considered selfish and the player should just have died instead because real pros never down am I right? But then this means it’s selfish play because there is no teamwork, everyone looks out for themselves and themselves only and it’s no different than playing with some NPCS (with the exception that NPCs probably will try to save you lol)… wait.. does that mean every single zerker build out there is a selfish build because it contributes nothing to other peoples survivability except for killing speed.

If you’re all in melee then if you all res the downed guy you won’t need to tank damage. If you’re against trash mobs rather than a boss, then just carry on DPSing since the downed player will just rally.

And no, not every zerker build is selfish at all. From the experience I have from the three classes I have, the most selfish build (traits-wise) is warrior, but that’s easily made up for by spades and spades of support via utility skills with might/fury from FGJ, disc/str banner, perma-fury from warbanner, fire field on longbow, spammable blast finishers on longbow 3, hammer f1, warhorn 5 and banners themselves.

See what i’m saying, 1-dimensional thinking leads to these silly conclusions. The moment you guys said something was 100 % is where you went wrong.

It is 100% bad though. No decent player, or player even remotely interested in being decent in dungeons will use AH. If you’re in a fast group, you kill stuff too fast for it to matter, if you’re in a group with bads, then well they’ll be camping range and you’ll be meleeing so you hardly get any benefit anyway.

colesy.8490:

One good example is saving downed allies while being able to tank a significant amount of damage from mobs. I have no doubt you can dodge every single damage from a mob, but you can’t be reving if you’re dodging. Then and again, maybe downing itself is considered selfish and the player should just have died instead because real pros never down am I right? But then this means it’s selfish play because there is no teamwork, everyone looks out for themselves and themselves only and it’s no different than playing with some NPCS (with the exception that NPCs probably will try to save you lol)… wait.. does that mean every single zerker build out there is a selfish build because it contributes nothing to other peoples survivability except for killing speed.

If you’re all in melee then if you all res the downed guy you won’t need to tank damage. If you’re against trash mobs rather than a boss, then just carry on DPSing since the downed player will just rally.

And no, not every zerker build is selfish at all. From the experience I have from the three classes I have, the most selfish build (traits-wise) is warrior, but that’s easily made up for by spades and spades of support via utility skills with might/fury from FGJ, disc/str banner, perma-fury from warbanner, fire field on longbow, spammable blast finishers on longbow 3, hammer f1, warhorn 5 and banners themselves.

See what i’m saying, 1-dimensional thinking leads to these silly conclusions. The moment you guys said something was 100 % is where you went wrong.

It is 100% bad though. No decent player, or player even remotely interested in being decent in dungeons will use AH. If you’re in a fast group, you kill stuff too fast for it to matter, if you’re in a group with bads, then well they’ll be camping range and you’ll be meleeing so you hardly get any benefit anyway.

Well I give up. If you don’t see it you don’t see it. There is no middle ground for you guys, just good or bad, no such thing as in between.

Caramel Ham.4891:

Lafiel.9372:

colesy.8490:

If you’re on about PvP/WvW, then well we’re on about PvE. I’m sure AH is fine in WvW when you have a bunch of guys around you and sustain is more important than faceplanting and being the dreaded rallybot.

Ah, so you do know about some other aspects. Regardless, even if it is just PvE, I can think of so many reasons and situations where an AH build may be preferred to be used over another.

One good example is saving downed allies while being able to tank a significant amount of damage from mobs. I have no doubt you can dodge every single damage from a mob, but you can’t be reving if you’re dodging. Then and again, maybe downing itself is considered selfish and the player should just have died instead because real pros never down am I right? But then this means it’s selfish play because there is no teamwork, everyone looks out for themselves and themselves only and it’s no different than playing with some NPCS (with the exception that NPCs probably will try to save you lol)… wait.. does that mean every single zerker build out there is a selfish build because it contributes nothing to other peoples survivability except for killing speed.

See what i’m saying, 1-dimensional thinking leads to these silly conclusions. The moment you guys said something was 100 % is where you went wrong.

I say the same thing to wvw/pvpers who say zerker build is a noob build and should never be used. There are situations for it to be used even if more tanky builds are usually preferred. e.g. small group roaming.

Sure you can run AH builds to run with noobs. But what about if I do not want to spec to just run with noobs? I have carried countless pugs, whom many were noobs, with my dps built Guardian, I do not have to revive every single one of the grp members to win. I just kill whatever is almost dead so that the player can rally off of it. Besides, my guardian can def survive reviving (not completely dead, downed) someone during a boss fight.

In your example, what if the player who is downed gets downed when literally the whole fight has broken down and everyone, except the AH guardian is barely surviving? AH Guardian will not be able to tank that much dmg…..unless hes full “tank” so therefore it was his lack of dps contribution that such a wipe was about to happen in the first place….among other factors.

So my Guardian can revive downed players. My Guardian can dps a lot to make up for noob players running pvt. I think of it this way, if in a fight, some players go down but at different times, I can def revive them….but if the other 4 have died (not downed but died), I already count as a wipe in most situations except the obvious soloable ones. Im sure an AH guardian would be no different.

To summarize. AH guardians in pve are pretty useless, even IF they might be helpful in one or two scenarios. We aren’t going to completely change out our spec and equipment just for those rare occasions.

I don’t know how I can be more clear…

You can’t say a build is useless and selfish just because you find no use for it yourself. You said it yourself even, "Sure you can run AH builds to run with noobs. But what about if I do not want to spec to just run with noobs? ", this already justifies a purpose of a build. It only takes one to completely demerit what you guys are pushing. This is just as bad as people in wvw who say zerker is noob build. I don’t get why people can’t see the situational purposes for everything.

That’s because there truly is no middle ground.

Does AH support the party – Y/N
Do the heals from AH let you outheal burst damage – Y/N
Is AH relevant when you are meleeing and your party is ranging – Y/N
Is AH relevant when bosses are bursted down fast enough before passive healing is relevant – Y/N
Is it possible to mitigate damage through use of blocks, reflects and dodging rather than just healing – Y/N

The answer to all of those is no except the last one. There is no reason for you to ever run AH.

colesy.8490:

That’s because there truly is no middle ground.

Does AH support the party – Y/N
Do the heals from AH let you outheal burst damage – Y/N
Is AH relevant when you are meleeing and your party is ranging – Y/N
Is AH relevant when bosses are bursted down fast enough before passive healing is relevant – Y/N
Is it possible to mitigate damage through use of blocks, reflects and dodging rather than just healing – Y/N

The answer to all of those is no except the last one. There is no reason for you to ever run AH.

Actually I see four yes out of your very selectively bias choices.

Edit: make that 5.

And people wonder why I’m so offensive when I get responses like this.

colesy.8490:

And people wonder why I’m so offensive when I get responses like this.

Fine, I was hoping you could figure it out for yourself but it seems i’ll have to walk you through it.

Does AH support the party – Y/N

Yes, mentioned above several times, it supports the party through aggro management and direct player support.
Do the heals from AH let you outheal burst damage – Y/N

Yes, and healing especially if your group is in an idealize position will help you live through burst damage. Sure it’s not as great as dodging since that dodges everything. Also, dodging only works so well against things that can be dodged… there are some things that can’t be dodged but I guess you guys don’t play those content much.

Is AH relevant when you are meleeing and your party is ranging – Y/N

Of course it still is, you can still build enough healing for a significant amount by yourself. It just works much more effective with other party members.
Is AH relevant when bosses are bursted down fast enough before passive healing is relevant – Y/N
Yes, of course it is, unless you’re ONE shotting that boss so fast it doesn’t even hit you, I don’t see how ANY healing is NOT relevant.
Is it possible to mitigate damage through use of blocks, reflects and dodging rather than just healing – Y/N

You said yes to this one. Good on you?

You know, i’m beginning to wonder if you’ve even tried AH lol.

Call me a “bad” for running in PVT or knight’s, but when I’m carrying zerkers through Aetherpath watching them try that “uber DPS” from downed state, I can’t help but not take people like some of you guys seriously when you say there’s no reason to run anything else.

It’s an utter myth that “all content is best played in zerker”. You guys just constantly play only content where zerker’s good; CoF P1, AC p1 or 3, etc., and as a result, you end up failing at content where that pure zerker DPS-only playstyle doesn’t help you as much. And then end up just never doing it. Or end up coming to the forums to claim that ArenaNet’s somehow bad at game design because they had the audacity to create content that’s not geared toward your preferred “meta”.

Oh man, could you imagine if ArenaNet did major overhauls to their common “speedrun” dungeon paths to make it harder for zerkers to speedrun it and encourage varied gameplay? The outrage would be amazing, the elitist tears absolutely delicious.

Does AH support the party – Y/N

Yes, mentioned above several times, it supports the party through aggro management and direct player support.

Healing yourself is not supporting your party. Aggro management is primarily through dealing the highest amount of damage, which is precisely why I’m constantly taking aggro when I PUG dungeons, the no-skills in the group who stack toughness and vitality are doing jack all damage while I’m carrying almost all of the DPS so the boss sticks to me like glue.

Yes, and healing especially if your group is in an idealize position will help you live through burst damage. Sure it’s not as great as dodging since that dodges everything. Also, dodging only works so well against things that can be dodged… there are some things that can’t be dodged but I guess you guys don’t play those content much.

To offer you examples, Subject Alpha and Lupicus. Healing is not going to save you if p2/3 Alpha lands damage on you, only a condi-cleanse will for the bleeds, and that’s provided that you even survive (it’s OHKO for low-HP classes). Also, there are hardly any undodgeable attacks, the only attack recently which I’ve seen and that I feel has a poor choreograph is Alpha’s teeth attack (teeth of mordremoth?), he literally raises his hand for a split second and then does an unblockable attack.

Of course it still is, you can still build enough healing for a significant amount by yourself. It just works much more effective with other party members.

So for AH to be effective you have to use bad gear, which means it doesn’t even matter at that point if it’s any good, your build will just be bad right there.

Yes, of course it is, unless you’re ONE shotting that boss so fast it doesn’t even hit you, I don’t see how ANY healing is NOT relevant.

So you go against a boss and you’re all going full DPS. Say you’re a standard 10/30/0/5/25 sw/f + gs guard. That’s three blocks on focus, your passive aegis, virtue and retreat for more aegis, two dodges, vigor on crit for more dodging, projectile reflection if needed and even hold the line for protection, but then you could just roll sw/f + hammer if you wanted protection.

Healing is not relevant, I speed clear content every now and then, and I can assure you that healing outside of your class burst heal (for longer fights) is irrelevant.

Call me a “bad” for running in PVT or knight’s, but when I’m carrying zerkers through Aetherpath watching them try that “uber DPS” from downed state, I can’t help but not take people like some of you guys seriously when you say there’s no reason to run anything else.

Except they’re actually carrying you because without their DPS the fight would go on for longer, leaving more room for error, leaving more time to faceplant. You’re contributing nothing by using defensive stats, it makes you a leech.

It’s an utter myth that “all content is best played in zerker”. You guys just constantly play only content where zerker’s good; CoF P1, AC p1 or 3, etc., and as a result, you end up failing at content where that pure zerker DPS-only playstyle doesn’t help you as much. And then end up just never doing it. Or end up coming to the forums to claim that ArenaNet’s somehow bad at game design because they had the audacity to create content that’s not geared toward your preferred “meta”.

Zerker is used to clear Arah, Fractal 48 and Fractal 79.

Oh man, could you imagine if ArenaNet did major overhauls to their common “speedrun” dungeon paths to make it harder for zerkers to speedrun it and encourage varied gameplay? The outrage would be amazing, the elitist tears absolutely delicious.

If you make it harder for zerkers to speed run it, you make it 4x harder for your average PUG to run it. Please think before you type.

colesy.8490:

Except they’re actually carrying you because without their DPS the fight would go on for longer, leaving more room for error, leaving more time to faceplant. You’re contributing nothing by using defensive stats, it makes you a leech.

Tell me more about how those zerkers are doing more damage on the ground than I am during my uptime. I’ll just be here, laughing.

colesy.8490:

Zerker is used to clear Arah, Fractal 48 and Fractal 79.

Oh, more examples. Sweet. Until zerker is considered the “meta” for literally 100% of the content in the game, or even half, it’s still a moot point.

colesy.8490:

If you make it harder for zerkers to speed run it, you make it 4x harder for your average PUG to run it. Please think before you type.

Numbers pulled out of thin air, completely unrationalized. Nice. You should really take your own advice on that last bit.

DusK.3849:

colesy.8490:

Zerker is used to clear Arah, Fractal 48 and Fractal 79.

Oh, more examples. Sweet. Until zerker is considered the “meta” for literally 100% of the content in the game, or even half, it’s still a moot point.

His point was that zerker is used for the most difficult content in the game, so your claim that “people only use zerker in easy content so they think its pro” is completely inaccurate.

inb4 TA aetherblade is more difficult than Fractal 48-79.