Guild Wars 2

A few months ago, anet announced that they would add more means to counter boons, aka, “boon-hate”.

The community exploded and cried that the end of the world was coming. People raged how bad of a thing that was, and claimed that using boons would suddenly be a bad thing.

When that update came out, warrior’s boon hate was meh, and thieves’ boon hate was necessary to counter guardian’s bunkers. That was it. It did not ruin the game. The world did not get destroyed.

Now, this new Torment condition is coming, and once again, people are crying for the apocalypse, and how this condition is going to break this game.

To be honest, and that also depends on the actual numbers, but immobilize and KD seem to be stronger anti-movement effects than this Torment. How is torment going to destroy this game’s combat, for punishing movement, if there are other effects that completely nullify movement? Immobilize and KD make you eat entire, HUGE bursts if you do not have a stun breaker. The new torment will give you a choice between moving or not – you can decide to avoid a burst, or if there’s none, decide not to move and take less damage.

I’m not sure how strong it’s going to be, but it seems healthy to the game to exist a new anti-movement condition that has a different tactical purpose than the other anti-movement effects. It adds more depth and more diversity to combat.

ilr.9675:

DrMatt.9408:

has this been posted here yet?

Leaks have always been against TOS … atleast on GURU they always were…
Anet almost always puts every build still in testing under NDA. Plz respect those NDA’s

ok fine I didn’t know that, seems to be all over the rest of the forum though, deleted

DrMatt.9408:

ilr.9675:

DrMatt.9408:

has this been posted here yet?

Leaks have always been against TOS … atleast on GURU they always were…
Anet almost always puts every build still in testing under NDA. Plz respect those NDA’s

ok fine I didn’t know that, seems to be all over the rest of the forum though, deleted

Thanks

ppl who HAVE to hear that kind of stuff right this instant, can just google for it anyway
they just have to keep in mind that only about 1/2 of the things ever seen in the leaks ever come out that way in the final releases

It cant be… it seems that the tactics line of the warriors its not going to be reworked, i mean the useless minor traits you get there reviving allies… what a joke.

well if the leak is real, it does look like a very good patch for my engineer and necro. fingers x

Do we know when this will come?

I feel a very heavy nerf coming to thieves and mesmers. As a Thief who doesn’t use a cookie cutter d/p or s/d build. I’m very excited

DiogoSilva.7089:

A few months ago, anet announced that they would add more means to counter boons, aka, “boon-hate”.

The community exploded and cried that the end of the world was coming. People raged how bad of a thing that was, and claimed that using boons would suddenly be a bad thing.

When that update came out, warrior’s boon hate was meh, and thieves’ boon hate was necessary to counter guardian’s bunkers. That was it. It did not ruin the game. The world did not get destroyed.

Now, this new Torment condition is coming, and once again, people are crying for the apocalypse, and how this condition is going to break this game.

To be honest, and that also depends on the actual numbers, but immobilize and KD seem to be stronger anti-movement effects than this Torment. How is torment going to destroy this game’s combat, for punishing movement, if there are other effects that completely nullify movement? Immobilize and KD make you eat entire, HUGE bursts if you do not have a stun breaker. The new torment will give you a choice between moving or not – you can decide to avoid a burst, or if there’s none, decide not to move and take less damage.

I’m not sure how strong it’s going to be, but it seems healthy to the game to exist a new anti-movement condition that has a different tactical purpose than the other anti-movement effects. It adds more depth and more diversity to combat.

Talk about being dramatic. Do you think Guardians are fine with the boon hate? I am not, but what I am going to do? Quit the game? No, at least not yet…I still try and enjoy the game regardless, doesn’t mean I am happy with the change.

This new condition was not needed on two of the three classes that will get it. No, it shouldn’t eventually be give all classes either. If decently played thieves/mesmers say they need this new condition I can tell you they are not decently played thieves/mesmers.

It is true…the new conditions seems exciting and interesting. But giving it to thieves and mesmers makes absolutely zero sense…imo of course.

Now everyone is making assumptions because we haven’t yet seen in which way they’re going to change all the other traits and how they’re going to make “harder to achieve” the most effective builds.
However I’d bet ten bucks Thief is the class going to suffer the most from this update.

Torment to a condition damage Mesmer is a good addition since they have no speed enhancing abilities. An enemy can easily run away from them in WvW.

Hermes.7014:

However I’d bet ten bucks Thief is the class going to suffer the most from this update.

You are very optmistic.

Hermes.7014:

Now everyone is making assumptions because we haven’t yet seen in which way they’re going to change all the other traits and how they’re going to make “harder to achieve” the most effective builds.
However I’d bet ten bucks Thief is the class going to suffer the most from this update.

Torment to a condition damage Mesmer is a good addition since they have no speed enhancing abilities. An enemy can easily run away from them in WvW.

Highly unlikely. The only meaningful nerf was to their burst which insta downed, no self respecting thief can say that wasn’t broken.

So thieves get even more OP than they already were? Standing still against a thief is already suicide, so now i either stand still and get killed in a couple hits, or i try to evade them and still die thanks to a new condition they have access too? What genius thought giving this to theives was a good idea? I hope they significantly nerfed theives burst damage to compensate for this.

Aww….the poor warriors. Not.

My warrior has permafury, swiftness, and a minimum of 14 stacks of might. She can get to 20+ stacks in the first few seconds of a fight.

In fact, in my stable of alts, I have three warriors. I run them in pvp/wvw/and pve. PvE, well, let’s be honest here, you can play the game blindfolded with both hand cuffed behind your back forcing you to hit keys with your toes and still roll through most of the content. WvW, warriors are fantastic and guard clearing and getting right in the thick of things. Sure, they’re limited when they try to clear walls (espec since the hit boxes for players are too low…ie, I can see 3/4 of my target’s body but get obstructed because his ankles are behind a low ledge), but just try and have a ranger or elementalist man the rams under fire and see how pretty of a corpse they make. And sPvP…welll…that’s just a mess for most classes atm. Burst warriors can rip people up when they get them targeted, and they have enough control abilities to keep them locked down, but the trick is getting to them in the first place.

What warriors might benefit from is not some new condition that will be added to the list of conditions that warrior players don’t bother with. Instead, it’s more lunges and movement skills to make it harder for ranged players to kit them. Or, they need more defense skills so that they can stand under fire even better. Either or both of those would be of far more benefit than torment.

On the other hand, those thieves all the warriors are worried about…

You won’t see a wvw thief trying to man siege or doing much better at clearing the walls that a warrior. In fact, with only 900 range on shortbow, warrior is slightly better. Sure, you can occasionally get some lulz by scroping someone off the walls down into the mosh pit, but that’s a rare thing and on a long cooldown anyway.

You also wont see thieves punishing whole groups of attackers the way elementalists and rangers can. They just don’t have the kind of oomph in their attacks that you need to make that work. Shortbow is too slow and fires AoE attacks that are even slower.

What thieves do well is win one on one fights. I suspect Torment isn’t really going to change that. It might give them a new toy to add variety to how they go about doing it, but it’s not like it’s suddenly going to make thieves into AoE terrors, nor is it likely to be the final piece any build needs to be a fantastic duelist since again, thieves already have that down. Maybe it’ll be the piece that makes a condition build thief at least closer in effectiveness to the other two top thief builds.

Ision.3207:

Let’s wait and see folks —-

For example, Torment, I really doubt they are just going to add this new condition to certain Mesmer and Thief skills/utilities without a trade-off of them losing out on other skills they have. (Now if they do indeed add Torment, without a trade-off, then they are totally NUTS – lol).

I call BS here, at least for mesmer. We have been hit hard with the condition nerf bat. We NEED a new condition to help encourage condition builds, since we are very poor at them currently. No other changes to mesmer need to happen if we get 1 new condition out of our weak few we already have.

Ok I Did It.2854:

I play a Mesmer a good bit also, and from what they are saying we also get it, this could be devastating to say the least, again hopefully its traited correctly, if its not, WvW is going to turn into Necro/Mesmer/Thief only.

WvW isn’t only roaming… all organized guild groups (15+) I’ve seen on Gandara and the servers we faced run with all the professions, with a strong component of guardians and warriors

Please, no more kitten to mesmers and thieves. I already die with my guardian (one of the worst mobility in the game) a lot in sPvP aganist them! (I’m nb, I know.)

ilr.9675:

^did that guy just say he’s getting kited on a class that specializes in burst Rifle pressure?

I think he did, yes

Wait I thought condi thieves were considered inferior to power/burst thieves?

Mighty Assasin.3816:

Hmm if there’s a new condition, what does this condition turn into when converted to a boon?

Stability maybe? That’s the only boon that has no condition conversion.

juno.1840:

TheOneNOnlyGeneralBama.9586:

Two of the game’s strongest duelist gets exclusive access to the new condition , punishing those who make a subtle attempt at movement whilst they’re insanely mobile and potent in trickery.

#Keyboardturnersrejoice!

Yeah agree. I think warriors should have gotten torment instead of thieves and mesmers. Arguably maybe guardians but they are already in a good place. Thieves have no issue getting to a mobile class and jumping them from behind so I’m not sure why torment was added to their arsenal.

Apparently the 5% chance that a very skilled player can get away from a Thief ambush was too high. I don’t get this one either, at all.

reading the first part of the thread seems people forget there is not only pvp in the game, as a mesmer since confusion became a rare or even useless condition to apply, even more in pve i welcome the change, and i’m sure it will come with a price…
anyway, people manage to kill me in pvp quite a lot, it’s true there is some player i don’t even have to kite, but people can kill me (from each class also), an OP class should never be beaten i guess?

Menaka.5092:

Ok I Did It.2854:

I play a Mesmer a good bit also, and from what they are saying we also get it, this could be devastating to say the least, again hopefully its traited correctly, if its not, WvW is going to turn into Necro/Mesmer/Thief only.

WvW isn’t only roaming… all organized guild groups (15+) I’ve seen on Gandara and the servers we faced run with all the professions, with a strong component of guardians and warriors

I play a staff Ele in WvW. I can often get away from a thief if I have somewhere to escape to, but it’s already an extremely difficult affair. I feel fairly skilled just being able to survive. If the thief isn’t very skilled, I can sometimes win a protracted 1vs. 1, but unless someone else stumbles along the best result is usually a draw, with me or them escaping.

Occasionally I encounter a really skilled Thief, like one I ran into yesterday, that can take on three or four opponents with a reasonable chance of success. That’s pretty insane and they are even more annoying because if they can’t win, they can almost always escape.

In these encounters, the only thing that gives me even the slightest chance of victory, or more likely escape, is mobility. This new condition seems like the fantasy ability for a thief that wants to play god-mode, rather than something that any MMO producer would actually implement.

If anything, a condition like this should be relegated to the least mobile professions, if at all.

I don’t get it.

Amadan.9451:

reading the first part of the thread seems people forget there is not only pvp in the game, as a mesmer since confusion became a rare or even useless condition to apply, even more in pve i welcome the change, and i’m sure it will come with a price…
anyway, people manage to kill me in pvp quite a lot, it’s true there is some player i don’t even have to kite, but people can kill me (from each class also), an OP class should never be beaten i guess?

It might make sense for a Mesmer, doesn’t make sense for a thief, at all, balance wise.

does anybody realize that usually high condition damage means low burst damage? yeah you can’t move, but nobody is going to oneshot you!

Kain Francois.4328:

Hoping for nice engineer and ranger changes!

Where does it say ranger and engi changes?

there are already unofficial change notes somewhere out there, and they said they will change traits line and skills for all classes

I want be able to get good dps with main hand Axe.
Nerf Axe Chain not help warrior and class balance. Are hard to close another classes, evicerate are only 300 range, and low time i can land chain i can’t hit full dmg cause the enemi will evade, escape or interrupt before i finish all hits :/

Weakness nerf to PvE for PVP / WvW balancing.

Sigh When is GW2 production release coming out? And no mention of a simple LFG tool.

If the leaked notes are correct, Torment doesn’t seem that scary numerically. Thieves, mesmers and necromancers each have a single source of Torment; mesmer and thief can hit 3 stacks (thief’s is on a venom and can be traited to 4 stacks, or 3 stacks per party member, or both with two grandmaster traits) and necromancer’s is… well, indeterminate as to how many stacks it inflicts total.

The damage is 75% of a bleed stack per torment stack, doubled if the victim is moving. So mesmers can put out at best 4.5 bleed stacks worth of damage, 2.25 if the target doesn’t move. Thieves can put out a little more if they trait for it. And like any condition, torment is subject to removal.

I dislike that weakness on skills is being globally reduced in duration in all modes – the change to affecting crits doesn’t really affect mobs, just players. And if mob weakness duration to players isn’t reduced in PvE, then mobs are potentially getting stronger as a result.

Tehe ^-^

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Weaken_Knees

Anyways, this is the type of ‘content’ patch that will make me log in after X months of inactivity.

The more skill changes the better: a static meta is so boring.

Thieves being given a condition that punishes movement seems ill conceived. Movement and kiting are only real defense against stealth. It is already too easy for thieves to disengage from fights, torment sounds like it will make it harder to escape thieves. Not liking what I see of the changes.

I was never one to complain about buffs but from the unofficial release notes, it looks like almost every class is getting a ton of buffs and it’s a little disturbing.

Yes, ArenaNet in the past has nerfed many skills to the point of uselessness. But this patch seems to be going to the opposite extreme of making everything overpowered.

You can say no problem we all needed some buffs, but just remember the monsters will probably be buffed too.

Since I have an 80 of each class I’ll have a lot of new stuff to play with if all these changes are made. Hope they don’t make the game worse in the long run though.

Until we play it’s impossible to know how bad/good these buffs are. In PVe at least, it should help to some degree with the harder areas of the game (ie Orr for people who had problems there before).

But I don’t think it’s entirely overdone. I think it’s nice to see some buffs after all the nerfs. The real issues I think will be in PvP and WvW, where people are against other people.

what if …

PvE monsters are able to dodge?

I think anet simply went insane if they’re going to just give thief and mesmer new condition, especially condition like that. With current mechanics you need to MOVE to avoid their attacks (which somewhat instakill you if you don’t) and now you’d just get damage for doing it. Way to go. Clever. Good work etc.

I just hope this also means thief and mesmer get a meganerf at same time. i.e. Mesmer GS loses 20% dmg and vuln from autoattack and thief loses stealth from dagger 5.

well, if the buff is too much, they can always lower it in the next patch.

LMBO
My thief! My condition trolling thief! Finally can troll even harder!

And so it begins!….The mesmer changes haven’t even been introduced yet and the crybabies are at it. You kitten Whiner’s already had our only viable condition nerfed to the ground so give it a kitten rest.

“In looking to expand the condition diversity of thieves and mesmers, we decided to include Torment skills for those two professions as well.”

Yeah, neither of them have enough damage atm, good decision.

Menaka.5092:

Ok I Did It.2854:

I play a Mesmer a good bit also, and from what they are saying we also get it, this could be devastating to say the least, again hopefully its traited correctly, if its not, WvW is going to turn into Necro/Mesmer/Thief only.

WvW isn’t only roaming… all organized guild groups (15+) I’ve seen on Gandara and the servers we faced run with all the professions, with a strong component of guardians and warriors

Tier 1 is already like half necros (not really but still pretty bad) a new condition that punishes movement will only make things worse.

Isaac.6041:

I was never one to complain about buffs but from the unofficial release notes, it looks like almost every class is getting a ton of buffs and it’s a little disturbing.

Yes, ArenaNet in the past has nerfed many skills to the point of uselessness. But this patch seems to be going to the opposite extreme of making everything overpowered.

You can say no problem we all needed some buffs, but just remember the monsters will probably be buffed too.

Since I have an 80 of each class I’ll have a lot of new stuff to play with if all these changes are made. Hope they don’t make the game worse in the long run though.

Did you read the notes for Rangers? Ouch. I bet they were hoping for positive changes and instead they got spit in the face. I only leveled mine up for farming anyways, but I guess I’ll have to wait another 6 months until Anet decides to make them viable.

Half necros to compensate for the half guardians running around. Reduce boon meta and necro drops in importance.

And by half necros you likely mean zergs, because necro is absolute garbage for roaming.

Zenith.7301:

Half necros to compensate for the half guardians running around. Reduce boon meta and necro drops in importance.

And by half necros you likely mean zergs, because necro is absolute garbage for roaming.

Has nothing to do with the Guardians and everything to do with marks and wells being both powerful and able to be layered on top of one another to the point that an area becomes an instagib zone for anything not speced for pure deffense.

Dying because you got chain feared by 5 reapers marks in an AoE clusterkitten is only funny the first time it happens.

How many PvP players will this patch make happy and how many PvE will be kitten ed of?

As usual……the old same “balancing” team….

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

what if …

PvE monsters are able to dodge?

Bandits say hi.

Isaac.6041:

I was never one to complain about buffs but from the unofficial release notes, it looks like almost every class is getting a ton of buffs and it’s a little disturbing.

Yes, ArenaNet in the past has nerfed many skills to the point of uselessness. But this patch seems to be going to the opposite extreme of making everything overpowered.

You can say no problem we all needed some buffs, but just remember the monsters will probably be buffed too.

Since I have an 80 of each class I’ll have a lot of new stuff to play with if all these changes are made. Hope they don’t make the game worse in the long run though.

can you explain PVE <== D/D elementalist buffs?
i just see the usual ton of nerfs.

P.S. PVE PVE PVE <=== to avoid the usual “ele is OP”.

P.S: at jalmari if you get hit from a sword full Attack chain you shouldn t be concerned by a condition…..

Complaining about changes that haven’t even happened yet is kinda silly. We don’t even know if those patch notes are legit or not…

jalmari.3906:

I think anet simply went insane if they’re going to just give thief and mesmer new condition, especially condition like that. With current mechanics you need to MOVE to avoid their attacks (which somewhat instakill you if you don’t) and now you’d just get damage for doing it. Way to go. Clever. Good work etc.

I just hope this also means thief and mesmer get a meganerf at same time. i.e. Mesmer GS loses 20% dmg and vuln from autoattack and thief loses stealth from dagger 5.

The new condition is 75% of a bleed, 150% of a bleed if you’re moving. Which means, you literally only have to worry about it when it comes from a condition build. Power builds will do almost nothing to you, even if you stay in motion for the entire duration.

And for mesmers at least, the only application we get is the block on the scepter- one single skill, which we can’t even control who gets the torment. And we only have the potential to maintain 3 stacks of it- which will vary between 2.25 bleed stacks and 4.5 bleed stacks.

I’ll tell you this right now, it’s worthless on a power build, and using it in a condition build makes your dps plummet (you can normally maintain ~6 bleeds and burning). You won’t even notice or care that this is coming from a mesmer- just like confusion.

Azure Prower.8701:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

what if …

PvE monsters are able to dodge?

Bandits say hi.

hmmm i did not notice that.

Isaac.6041:

I was never one to complain about buffs but from the unofficial release notes, it looks like almost every class is getting a ton of buffs and it’s a little disturbing.

Yes, ArenaNet in the past has nerfed many skills to the point of uselessness. But this patch seems to be going to the opposite extreme of making everything overpowered.

You can say no problem we all needed some buffs, but just remember the monsters will probably be buffed too.

Since I have an 80 of each class I’ll have a lot of new stuff to play with if all these changes are made. Hope they don’t make the game worse in the long run though.

A lot of people seem to think that they are buffing stuff that is already good. Many things I noticed they were buffing very very few people use. I hardly see a lot of necros running spectral skills or Axe, hardly see any engineers running gadgets, etc. They basically looked at all the stuff no one uses and said “what can we do to get people to use these things”.

As vayne said, we dont know how it will be till we play it or if these trait changes are true/all of them.

As a mesmer, I think torment is going to be great for us. We have the lowest mobility, so enemies are often able to escape as easily. Torment will make that a bit harder for them now. However thieves have insane mobility and can already stick to you like glue. I don’t understand why they need torment. If you don’t move, a thief will kill you in about 2 seconds. For mesmers, unless we are running a specifically traited shatter zerker build, we aren’t going to kill you that fast, so hurting you when you run is not as devastating vs us as it is vs thieves.