Guild Wars 2

Working towards making your character more poweeful is the only way ove ever played. But from what ive read on here thats called vertical progression and that its a bad thing… So what is horizontal progression and how is it better?

Horizontal Progression is advancing through the game at the same capacity/strength throughout all the content (more or less).

For instance, GW1 is a Horizontal Progression game. You get max weapons and armor easily and early. Then you just play through the content in the game without worrying about getting new gear and having to grind out a new tier every year or so. All content is geared towards the gear you got in the beginning, with nothing stronger to make you feel left behind if you are not grinding the newest dungeon for the newest tier.

You progress through the game with the same strength from since you started, just experience new content. Hopefully that is an understandable explanation.

The reason some find this better, is cause it allows you freedom to play when you want and how you want.

In Vertical Progression, you are constantly chasing that carrot to get the next strongest gear. But you never ever reach the end. New gear is always added and it is a never ending cycle. And if you just hit max level and go PvP, you will always get destroyed by someone more geared than you. And you can’t experience new content unless you grind old content to get gear so you can survive to get the new gear.

With Horizontal Progression, you never have to do that. You will always be equal, no matter what new content comes out. You don’t feel forced to have to grind a new set of gear to be up to par with everyone else. You don’t feel forced to play 24/7 to be competitive cause your gear is outdated. Your gear will always be the best anyone can get, and you will always be able to participate in any new content cause gear will never be stronger. So you will never have that feeling of being left behind or not up to par.

horizontal is not rat trap, you can do it as optional, where vertical stat treadmills just turn the player into a hamster spinning on a wheel. The point to vertical is to keep you invested and paying the company for being a hamster.

horizontal your stats plateau at some point, and you will progress by creative experience and adventuring by exploration and conquest.

Vertical is bottom of the barrel as far as content is concerned, easiest to implement easiest to hook the player on.

Think of gear treadmills as a vertical progression. Gear that has better stats or w/e you generally have to work your butt off for it. There is virtually no ceiling to this and could go on forever as long as they release new content with increasingly better gear.

Horizontal progression is more of a cosmetic thing. Once you reach a ceiling in gear stats, the only way to go is horizontal (left, right, for cosmetic reasons.) Not up in stats.

Wolfend.5287:

horizontal is not rat trap, you can do it as optional, where vertical stat treadmills just turn the player into a hamster spinning on a wheel. The point to vertical is to keep you invested and paying the company for being a hamster.

horizontal your stats plateau at some point, and you will progress by creative experience and adventuring by exploration and conquest.

Vertical is bottom of the barrel as far as content is concerned, easiest to implement easiest to hook the player on.

This forum is actually the first time I’ve heard of the hamster wheel term, and I got to say its freaking halarious, but the truth about the hamster wheel is a sad one. I WILL NOT BE A HAMSTER XD

At its most basic, conceptual level:

- In vertical progression, you move, well, upward. Everything you do makes you literally, unarguably, definitively more powerful than you were before.

- In horizontal progression, you have multiple options you can advance toward, but none of them are inherently better than what you already have, and none of them are inherently better than each other. In horizontal progression, you become more flexible, or differently powerful than you were before.

Examples, as it pertains to Guild Wars 2:
– Going from Rare Berserker’s armour to Exotic Berserker’s armour is vertical progression. Exotic armour is just better, and there’s no reason to choose Rare over Exotic if you have the resources for both. Having Exotic armour makes Rare armour useless to you.

- Going from Exotic Berserker’s armour to Exotic Knight’s armour is horizontal progression. While Berserker armour may be a better fit for certain playstyles, or synergize better with certain builds, the reverse will also be true: Knight’s armour will be a better fit for other playstyles and builds. Both are desirable, but neither is necessarily or definitively better than one another. Having Knight’s does not make Berserker’s useless to you, and vice versa.

Thank you for the great answers. I now understand. But now it makes me wonder. How would horizontal progression not become stale. It sounds like you arent working towards anything beneficial to your character… Does the game stay interesting. If so, how?

Also, to me the treadmill/hamster wheel areguement is moot. This is a video game your sitting in front of a screen pushing the same buttons continuously. No matter how you spin it. Youre on a wheel no matter the game you are playimg. To me its aboit wasting time having fun and feeling a fake sense of achievement.

Horizontal Progression should be about menu of options to select from in play.

If you lucked out and found your ‘perfect formula’ with no expansion? You may indeed get it going stale, but in that case, you found your ‘perfect’ game style to enjoy so that alone buys time.

The joy of horizontal progression is in the experimentation of variables to find ‘power’ through the combinations and interactions.

Vertical progression is, well, 10 is bigger than 5, but everything else is absolutely the same.

Frankly, Vertical Progression is now, and has always been, the far more stale and uninteresting structure and always has been by the very definition of how it’s applied numerically in most MMOs; more of the exact same, just with larger values, so there is no perceivable difference in action/experience. It’s used solely as a gating mechanic to keep you moving place to place and restricting a location because ‘your numbers are not big enough to be here’.

Horizontal and variable driven progressions encourage more activity, thought and engagement on the player’s part. Halo, for instance, was widely regarded as ground breaking as an FPS becaues suddenly I real limits on what weapons I could keep on hand at any time where as previously, I always had like 10 to choose from in my Holster’s of Holding (sidenote, no idea where i kept the minigun AND rocket launcher in doom… that can’t be comfy….). While not a Halo fan myself, it’s a solid example of where the combination of choices is where your power comes from rather than simply making each bullet do more damage PER bullet, but the weaponry never changes whatsoever.

GW2’s skill slot system is so woefully under-leveraged as a horizontal progressor expressly due to the outright foolish and lackluster gear statistics and crafting system implementation.

It’s a shame, but that’s how I see it, personally.

Other opinions, of course, may vary.

Syfin.6875:

Thank you for the great answers. I now understand. But now it makes me wonder. How would horizontal progression not become stale. It sounds like you arent working towards anything beneficial to your character… Does the game stay interesting. If so, how?

By releasing new content, by playing in WvW or sPvP which are dynamic experiences, by adding new dynamic events. Even say adding new utility or weapon skills which are different but not more powerful is horizontal progression.

Tifa Lockheart Ex.9614:

Wolfend.5287:

horizontal is not rat trap, you can do it as optional, where vertical stat treadmills just turn the player into a hamster spinning on a wheel. The point to vertical is to keep you invested and paying the company for being a hamster.

horizontal your stats plateau at some point, and you will progress by creative experience and adventuring by exploration and conquest.

Vertical is bottom of the barrel as far as content is concerned, easiest to implement easiest to hook the player on.

This forum is actually the first time I’ve heard of the hamster wheel term, and I got to say its freaking halarious, but the truth about the hamster wheel is a sad one. I WILL NOT BE A HAMSTER XD

yeah, my new tag line in LA is going to be “I’m a pixelated person not a hamster on a wheel. Undies dance party at the fountain! Vendor your gear, liberate your self, join the revolution!”

Syfin.6875:

Also, to me the treadmill/hamster wheel areguement is moot. This is a video game your sitting in front of a screen pushing the same buttons continuously. No matter how you spin it. Youre on a wheel no matter ….

it is called the Skinner Box, or Pavalov’s (sp) Law

… unlocking new content, skills, weapon sets, adventures, exploration, challenges, titles, faction, and a thousand other things,… etc. is how best to handle horizontal progress.

none of the above requires stats to increase, except for the skinner box and the salivating dog experiment.

Drusus that does sound pretty cool. I guess ill see this when i hit 80. Thanks for going so in depth. Im sold on the idea for now

Wolfend.5287:

Syfin.6875:

Also, to me the treadmill/hamster wheel areguement is moot. This is a video game your sitting in front of a screen pushing the same buttons continuously. No matter how you spin it. Youre on a wheel no matter ….

it is called the Skinner Box, or Pavalov’s (sp) Law

… unlocking new content, skills, weapon sets, adventures, exploration, challenges, titles, faction, and a thousand other things,… etc. is how best to handle horizontal progress.

none of the above requires stats to increase, except for the skinner box and the salivating dog experiment.

But at the end of the day what are you actually doing when doing any of those things… Looks like you are one fo the people in the box who doesn’t even know it.

you don’t have a choice when content is vertical, not so with horizontal, you have a choice, you have virtual free will.

Syfin.6875:

Drusus that does sound pretty cool. I guess ill see this when i hit 80. Thanks for going so in depth. Im sold on the idea for now

Sorry to get your hopes up too much Syfin.

The statistical model in GW2 is still pretty tightly intertwined with vertical progression.

The Horizontal elements were there but curiously underdeveloped. There are some, so enjoy experimenting, to be sure.

But you’re getting a half and half at best.

Glad my description helped.

Tifa Lockheart Ex.9614:

Wolfend.5287:

horizontal is not rat trap, you can do it as optional, where vertical stat treadmills just turn the player into a hamster spinning on a wheel. The point to vertical is to keep you invested and paying the company for being a hamster.

horizontal your stats plateau at some point, and you will progress by creative experience and adventuring by exploration and conquest.

Vertical is bottom of the barrel as far as content is concerned, easiest to implement easiest to hook the player on.

This forum is actually the first time I’ve heard of the hamster wheel term, and I got to say its freaking halarious, but the truth about the hamster wheel is a sad one. I WILL NOT BE A HAMSTER XD

And someone else pointed out a few days ago we aren’t donkeys either.

While it’s not entirely clear what we are, I think we’re starting to narrow it down.

My summary: horizontal progression = increasing versatility, vertical progression = increasing power.

Horizontal can be way more exciting. Think about how people spec differently for solo adventuring vs running in a dungeon?

The same could be done if content was such that certain skillsets worked better in certain zones while other skillsets worked better in other zones due to the monsters there. This is more exciting than just throwing bigger numbers at the monsters.

Although the game also has vertical progression (in the form of QL equipment and signets), The Secret World’s Skill Wheel System is a perfect example of horizontal progression. In fact, it’s undeniably heavily inspired by GW1 itself.

Here’s how it works to give you an idea:

In TSW, there are no classes at all. There are 9 weapon types available. For clarity’s sake, I’m not going to include the auxiliary weapons.

Melee – Fists, Blades, Hammer
Ranged – Assault Rifle, Pistols, Shotgun
Magic – Chaos, Elemental, Blood

You can equip any 2 of them at any time.

Now, you can equip 7 active skills and 7 passive skills. The Active Skills are your attack skills. These are limited by what weapons you have equipped. The Passive Skills give you bonus effects. You can equip any Passive Skill you want. It doesn’t matter where you learned it from.

How do you learn the skills? Here’s where the Skill Wheel System comes in. All the Active and Passive Skills (from all 9 weapons) are there available for you to learn. If you look closely, the skills are also designed to work together

- One skill might slow (Hinder) a target
- A passive skill from some where else says when you hit a Hindered target, you add a Weaken effect to them as well
- Another skill does extra damage if the target is weakened

You get the idea. The idea of horizontal progression here is that you can choose to learn all there is to learn for your chosen weapon, or branch out and learn skills from another weapon to give yourself more coverage. And since Passive Skills are unrestricted, you can also choose to learn Passives from another place in the wheel altogether if it fits your “deck”.

Also, the game has suggested “decks” you can work towards. If you complete them, the game awards you with a costume that fits the theme of the deck (complete an Assassin deck, gain an Assassin costume).

Get the idea? They are also (relatively) constantly adding more weapons with updates, which means new skills to learn.

Disclaimer though that this isn’t a discussion about whatever problems TSW has. It’s just for illustration.

Drusus.6723:

Syfin.6875:

Drusus that does sound pretty cool. I guess ill see this when i hit 80. Thanks for going so in depth. Im sold on the idea for now

Sorry to get your hopes up too much Syfin.

The statistical model in GW2 is still pretty tightly intertwined with vertical progression.

The Horizontal elements were there but curiously underdeveloped. There are some, so enjoy experimenting, to be sure.

But you’re getting a half and half at best.

Glad my description helped.

hmmm maybe half and half is best. Appeal to everyone that way i suppose and it gets more complex if you are actually getting half and half… Still experimenting is there but the shiny powerful items are there as well… I enjoy the game a lot so Im not going to complain

Syfin.6875:

Thank you for the great answers. I now understand. But now it makes me wonder. How would horizontal progression not become stale. It sounds like you arent working towards anything beneficial to your character… Does the game stay interesting. If so, how?

In actual horizontal progression, you develop new abilities that are fairly well balanced (or even additional characters). Anyone can develop a particular thing they want fairly quickly, but it takes time to develop everything. So, you are increasing your options and get to play with more actual content. In addition, as you choose to face additional harder challenges, it is actually harder because you haven’t acquired more powerful stuff to trivialize it, but your understanding and ability to utilize a greater breadth of the content might help you.

For vertical progression, you get more powerful. All this requires is you get a +20 sword to use instead of your +18. You do this so you can kill the +20 troll instead of the +18 troll. Yes, vertical progression doesn’t preclude actually introducing content. But it is the “go to” solution for lack of content, so that is where you are going to see it occur.

So, what actually gets stale faster? Gaining different abilities and taking on challenges that are actually progressively more difficult? Or getting higher numbers to fight higher numbers while essentially doing the same thing over and over? Hmm…

SpyderArachnid.5619:

Horizontal Progression is advancing through the game at the same capacity/strength throughout all the content (more or less).

For instance, GW1 is a Horizontal Progression game. You get max weapons and armor easily and early. Then you just play through the content in the game without worrying about getting new gear and having to grind out a new tier every year or so. All content is geared towards the gear you got in the beginning, with nothing stronger to make you feel left behind if you are not grinding the newest dungeon for the newest tier.

You progress through the game with the same strength from since you started, just experience new content. Hopefully that is an understandable explanation.

The reason some find this better, is cause it allows you freedom to play when you want and how you want.

In Vertical Progression, you are constantly chasing that carrot to get the next strongest gear. But you never ever reach the end. New gear is always added and it is a never ending cycle. And if you just hit max level and go PvP, you will always get destroyed by someone more geared than you. And you can’t experience new content unless you grind old content to get gear so you can survive to get the new gear.

With Horizontal Progression, you never have to do that. You will always be equal, no matter what new content comes out. You don’t feel forced to have to grind a new set of gear to be up to par with everyone else. You don’t feel forced to play 24/7 to be competitive cause your gear is outdated. Your gear will always be the best anyone can get, and you will always be able to participate in any new content cause gear will never be stronger. So you will never have that feeling of being left behind or not up to par.

This is pretty much it.

Vertical progression is content that is superior to other content. You can compare different content and determine which is better. If you have a sword with +10 power and then a new sword is released that has +20 power, the new sword is better than the old one.

Horizontal progression is content that can’t be directly compared to other content. Imagine you have a hat. It’s blue. A new hat is added. This one is red. Which one is better? Neither. You just have a new hat.

And to stick with hats: in horizontal progression, you work hard so you can buy a prettier hat. Or because you collect hats. Or (whatever you fancy doing with hats :P).

In vertical progression, you work hard, so that you can buy a better helmet, so that you can work harder and get a better helmet, so that you can work harder and get a better helmet, so that…

(edit for clarification: point being, in horizontal progression you work for the things you want, to do the things you enjoy. In vertical progression, you work so that you can work more, an endless chore that gets you, really, nowhere).

Syfin.6875:

Thank you for the great answers. I now understand. But now it makes me wonder. How would horizontal progression not become stale. It sounds like you arent working towards anything beneficial to your character… Does the game stay interesting. If so, how?

We can bring this back to an old school game. Super Mario Brothers.

Throughout the game you can reach your maximum “stats” and that is big mario via mushroom plus ability to shoot fireballs with fire flower.

Now, why does the game continue to be interesting despite reaching your maximum early on?

Its because the levels become harder and more intricate as your progress your skill.
Mario does not gain a turtle resist overalls or anti pit moustache, you just get better.

In GW1, you reached your max at lv 20 and you gain your earliest gear early on. Why does it keep interest?

Because new areas have tougher enemies that require understanding of the game to beat, you push through because you progressed your skill, not because your character got more stats.
You can now go to the underworld, fissue or woe, the new dungeons in eotn etc.
It doesnt stop there, they introduce Hard Mode. The game got EVEN tougher with the introduction of hard mode and you still got the same stats as before.

But it was enjoyable because it was REAL difficulty that cannot be beaten by just grinding for better gear

You could use resistance values on mobs and different damage types on weapons or skills (like ice, fire, water, slashing, piercing, vampiric) to make strategic choices, when you encounter mobs with for example high fire resistance, but low ice resistance.

Meaning it makes the game more flexible and challenging without only knowing the direction more power, more hp. It is more about the smart use of skill, weapon and armor sets.

I created a thread how GW2 can implement horizontal progression with meaningful choices being a part of end game gear.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Horizontal-progression-how-it-can-work/first#post829680

Horizontal progression is mostly additional abilities of relatively equal power added instead of a constant increase of power. It is more difficult to add balanced abilities instead of just upping the numbers on your gear which is why game developers take the path of least resistance a lot.

Tenshi.3598:

And to stick with hats: in horizontal progression, you work hard so you can buy a prettier hat. Or because you collect hats. Or (whatever you fancy doing with hats :P).

In vertical progression, you work hard, so that you can buy a better helmet, so that you can work harder and get a better helmet, so that you can work harder and get a better helmet, so that…

I see what you did there. You tried to make your own stance seem better by calling the opposite side “pretty hats”, while your own view has “helmets”. Who’d want to get a hat when you can get a helmet, right?

But in your example you made it seem like an endless road that doesn’t amount to anything in the end. You’ll never get anywhere. Sure, you’ll always have goal, but there the only point is adding numbers on top of your old numbers, while your worker for bigger numbers, that’s waiting just in front of even bigger numbers…

The point of horizontal progression is meaningful choices. Where you get gear with differences in how their stats are applied to an item. You’d actually look at you old item and the new item, and then need to decide which works better for you. While the vertical system has an endless out with the old climb, it promotes throwing replacing items, not choosing items.

arcaneclarity.5283:

Horizontal progression is mostly additional abilities of relatively equal power added instead of a constant increase of power. It is more difficult to add balanced abilities instead of just upping the numbers on your gear which is why game developers take the path of least resistance a lot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxszx60ZwGw

Brilliant video! ANet should definitely have a look at it, it explains exactly why people are so resistant to ascended gear. It seems to them that ANet took the path of least resistance, a disappointing path (perhaps even a lazy path), because ANet did a great job with comparables (as stated in the video) in GW1.

I think if ANet takes a step back and re-evaluate ascended gear, they’d see that it can stand alongside exotics, instead of just replacing it. This will breed choices, which is something people want from new content, instead of giving them the feeling that the new content are the next step towards replacing the old.
This is something some people don’t understand. Sure, you don’t need ascended items, however, it is new content that people would want to explore, and as the video displayed, higher stats require the game to step up challenges for those stats, which makes people feel forced to get them.

Again, the thread I made on how ascended gear can have a comparable place next to exotic items sort of outlines how this could work.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Horizontal-progression-how-it-can-work/first#post829680

Azjenco.9425:

Tenshi.3598:

And to stick with hats: in horizontal progression, you work hard so you can buy a prettier hat. Or because you collect hats. Or (whatever you fancy doing with hats :P).

In vertical progression, you work hard, so that you can buy a better helmet, so that you can work harder and get a better helmet, so that you can work harder and get a better helmet, so that…

I see what you did there. You tried to make your own stance seem better by calling the opposite side “pretty hats”, while your own view has “helmets”. Who’d want to get a hat when you can get a helmet, right?

But in your example you made it seem like an endless road that doesn’t amount to anything in the end. You’ll never get anywhere. Sure, you’ll always have goal, but there the only point is adding numbers on top of your old numbers, while your worker for bigger numbers, that’s waiting just in front of even bigger numbers…

The point of horizontal progression is meaningful choices. Where you get gear with differences in how their stats are applied to an item. You’d actually look at you old item and the new item, and then need to decide which works better for you. While the vertical system has an endless out with the old climb, it promotes throwing replacing items, not choosing items.

I think you totally misread Tenshi’s post.

The point being made is that horizontal progression is a question of being able to make choices in a way that suits whatever style takes your fancy, and can be stopped/started whenever you want without ‘losing’.

While the vertical progression is a never ending hamster wheel. The ‘endless road’ referred to was in the vertical progression, not in the horizontal progression.

Horizontal progression is content not geared towards increased players stats that make the player more powerful.

In GW2 their is vertical progression up to level 80. Once you reach the cap the game then becomes about Horizontal progression.

Horizontal progression can include:
*more achievements
*ranks instead of levels
*unlockables that don’t give a stat advantage
*adding a visual affect to items
*upgrading player houses

Horizontal progression already in game
*unlocking hair dyes
*commander icons

Horizontal progression is not easy for developers to make so they get lazy and add vertical progression.

Also one of the misconceptions about people who want Horizontal progression. Is that they want everyone to be the same. That’s not true. I want unlockables and to stand out. But not in a way that gates content.

Onshidesigns.1069:

Also one of the misconceptions about people who want Horizontal progression. Is that they want everyone to be the same. That’s not true. I want unlockables and to stand out. But not in a way that gates content.

Very true. Somehow people think that when you’re opposed to vertical progression, then you don’t want challenges, or to advance your character. Not at all, horizontal still has unique and difficult to find objects, but these are placed there for the pure sense of the achievement, not because arbitrarily important numbers are built into them.

Horizontal progression actually enforces a level field of choices, of self-imposed customization, while vertical progression lures you out, as if the item isn’t good enough, finding it isn’t enough of a challenge, rather the higher numbers is what’s supposed to drive you.
Actually, now that I think about it, that’s kind of insulting towards the players.

Azjenco.9425:

Tenshi.3598:

And to stick with hats: in horizontal progression, you work hard so you can buy a prettier hat. Or because you collect hats. Or (whatever you fancy doing with hats :P).

In vertical progression, you work hard, so that you can buy a better helmet, so that you can work harder and get a better helmet, so that you can work harder and get a better helmet, so that…

I see what you did there. You tried to make your own stance seem better by calling the opposite side “pretty hats”, while your own view has “helmets”. Who’d want to get a hat when you can get a helmet, right?

But in your example you made it seem like an endless road that doesn’t amount to anything in the end. You’ll never get anywhere. Sure, you’ll always have goal, but there the only point is adding numbers on top of your old numbers, while your worker for bigger numbers, that’s waiting just in front of even bigger numbers…

The point of horizontal progression is meaningful choices. Where you get gear with differences in how their stats are applied to an item. You’d actually look at you old item and the new item, and then need to decide which works better for you. While the vertical system has an endless out with the old climb, it promotes throwing replacing items, not choosing items.

Haha that was exactly my point: how meaningless vertical progression is. Apologies if that wasn’t clear.

Tenshi.3598:

Haha that was exactly my point: how meaningless vertical progression is. Apologies if that wasn’t clear.

Sorry, my bad. :P
I should have paid closer attention, but I’m glad we are in agreement.

I believe you need to have both. Vertical progression is a good way of developing your chracter and getting you involved in the game but there comes a point when the repetition of the same content becomes boring – the grind – and generally this comes at the end of your leveling rather than before, as hopefully you are still exploring the game during your levelling progression.

The ‘end game’ though has to change in to something new. It’s the reason i’ve left every mmo so far.

The end game has to be horizontal, but how do you avoid the same content getting old and boring as well as getting no progression from it? For me pvp is the answer but every time I think i’ve found an mmo that has great pvp or rvr/wvw, you get the idiots demanding vertical progression and you get the grind all over again.

Personally I think we need huttball.

Been posting @ ArenaNet for years now: you add vertical treadmill it will be to the detriment of story. Most players will skip dialogue and cut scenes as they are suboptimal to the level grind.

How often do you see players discussing story, open world DE narratives and the like? Compared to associated aspects of level grind?

The story of GWII sucks because it gets in the way of the lowest common denominator — the level grind. Levels and stats should have never been the mechanism for gating content and guiding story path, sorry Eric it is a big fail, there are far simpler, better way to handle pathing and they are all story driven.

Onshidesigns.1069:

Horizontal progression is not easy for developers to make so they get lazy and add vertical progression.

Indeed.

And as the above video brilliantly explained it actually makes old content obsolete.

Which is downright stupid in a game that downlevels you so you supposedly can experience “everything” at (somewhat) the intended level.

And the cherry on top of the GW2 vert.prog. fail-pie is that I´m not paying sub so DON´T EVEN HAVE TO PLAY constantly to keep up with the other morans running after the carrot.
Unless NCSoft axes them too, I can just come back next year, when the next level has been introduced and all that super gear is worthless again.

To me, vertical progression is like mountain climbing. Spend 4 days climbing to the top, but the view is breath-taking from there. Put a flag up there, and you beat the summit. On to the next mountain.

Horizontal progression is like a theme park. Spend 4 days walking around the park, enjoying the rides. People don’t mind walking between rides, as long as there are some fun to be had. They give you a passport to stamp at each ride and give you a sense of accomplishment.

The problem is, many people (including me), bought the game on the premise that this game is a theme park according to the manifesto. If one want a mountain climbing game, WoW would be a more suitable choice.

Suddenly Anet put a ride on a mountain in the middle of a theme park. So, some people feel.. confused, what to be expected of this game.

It’s all about setting expectations for your customers. So far, people are getting psychological whiplash. Diminishing returns on dungeon runs or encouraging people to farm dungeon tokens? If this is a pvp/wvw oriented game, why not balancing new content/items there before pve/dungeons section?

Saidor.7028:

I believe you need to have both. Vertical progression is a good way of developing your chracter and getting you involved in the game but there comes a point when the repetition of the same content becomes boring – the grind – and generally this comes at the end of your leveling rather than before, as hopefully you are still exploring the game during your levelling progression.

The ‘end game’ though has to change in to something new. It’s the reason i’ve left every mmo so far.

The end game has to be horizontal, but how do you avoid the same content getting old and boring as well as getting no progression from it? For me pvp is the answer but every time I think i’ve found an mmo that has great pvp or rvr/wvw, you get the idiots demanding vertical progression and you get the grind all over again.

Personally I think we need huttball.

This fit perfeclty my idea of what this game need

Level 1 to 80, is a mandatory vertical progression, and its needed because you learn how to play you character on the way, when you hit the level 80, its supposed that you mastered most of the aspects of your class.

After beat level 80, its still vertical progression, because you need to gather the max stats equipment, in the old Gw2 concept, this is a short transition phase.

When you have you max stats tier, you are ready to the real endgame, and here the game must be based on horizzontal progression:
New “rare” skins, gatherable skills , more difficult content.

Now the FOTM dungeon is the perfect example of vertical progression content, because you add a difficult that on a certain point can be overcomed only using a new gear.

GW2 only has partial horizontal progression.

If they wanted to have real horizontal progression, they would not have classes at all. In fact, GW2 general mechanics would be better without classes.

Lets take weapons there are probably 20 or so skills for each weapon type. You would start with 2 skills on each weapon and as you skill up you could buy more with skill points. Everything you do in the world could reward you with XP which can then be turned into Skill Points. You could make 2 skills worth 8 and 5 skills worth 20. All the abilities would be available. Like the Guardian Leap of Faith then buy it, it costs 8 skill points and put it in your 2 slot. Prefer Hundred Blades, then buy it.

Same with your other skills. Buy the ones you want.

Even your special skills could be purchased. Want the Adrenaline skills, sure buy them and put them in that slot. Prefer Virtues, go for it.

Then traits and what not. Again they could be purchased with skill points.

Stats it would be easier to simply have them changed with gear.

Armor you could have another set of slots to sort out what armor you want. Want to use heavy armor, no problem. However you now have a run speed of +0%. Medium +10%. Light +15%. Use a shield, np but you are giving up some range or + crit or something by taking that slot in that area.

Basically, you could design whatever you want. And reinvent your character all the time.

Now that would be a heck of a lot neater than any MMO currently out there. Dev’s wouldn’t have to worry about introducing endless gear grinds. Just looking at other games and bringing some of their skills into this one for people to buy with their play time.

Want to switch from heavy armor to light magic wielder? NP just buy all the skills, buy new gear and away you go.

PVP would be endlessly dynamic.

Relentliss.2170:

……

Basically, you could design whatever you want. And reinvent your character all the time.

Now that would be a heck of a lot neater than any MMO currently out there. Dev’s wouldn’t have to worry about introducing endless gear grinds. Just looking at other games and bringing some of their skills into this one for people to buy with their play time.

Want to switch from heavy armor to light magic wielder? NP just buy all the skills, buy new gear and away you go.

PVP would be endlessly dynamic.

Check out Funcom’s “Secret World” incredible idea, much more like Guild Wars 1, even more so than GW2.

But Funcom under-baked another one, and are applying improvements/repair post release. Might be a solid product by now. If only ArenaNet had embraced the virtues of gw1 as much as Funcom did.

Syfin.6875:

Thank you for the great answers. I now understand. But now it makes me wonder. How would horizontal progression not become stale. It sounds like you arent working towards anything beneficial to your character… Does the game stay interesting. If so, how?

Some people require vertical progression in order to enjoy an MMOG. IMO, there’s nothing inherently wrong with that – it’s just what they enjoy. Nothing else is the game is really enjoyable – for them – without the fundamental structure of ongoing vertical progression, so trying to tell you how a game without it can be entertaining in the long term is like trying to tell you how one can enjoy chocolate cake when they just don’t like chocolate cake. You cannot convince people to enjoy chocolate cake if they just don’t like it.

Tens of millions of people enjoy League of Legends that has no vertical progression to speak of; it’s really all about arranging your core build, learning how to play each particular hero, and dressing up your character in cool skins. Then you learn maps and strategies where you compete against other players (or bots) and figure out how to counter what you run into.

What I would really like in an MMOG is to log in and have the ability to build a maxed out character and gear with an assortment of core abilities/traits/skills from scratch as part of the original character creation process. Horizontal progression would be a process of collecting non-comparable skills or traits to include in my growing library. There could be many, many ways of collecting these non-comparable horizontal attributes. Perhaps I could also collect variant battle animations and emotes, weapon and gear skins, special effects, non-comparable pets]

I can see myself creating a whole stable of variant, maxed-out characters to enjoy in pvp, or WvW, or to go into events or other PvE content with, just to have fun with my fully customized character, and never ever have to think about any vertical progression.

But, if that kind of thing doesn’t appeal to you, no amount of explanation or salesmanship is going to convince you otherwise, just as no amount of explanation or salesmanship can convince some people to enjoy vertical progression systems.

Wolfend.5287:

Relentliss.2170:

……

Basically, you could design whatever you want. And reinvent your character all the time.

Now that would be a heck of a lot neater than any MMO currently out there. Dev’s wouldn’t have to worry about introducing endless gear grinds. Just looking at other games and bringing some of their skills into this one for people to buy with their play time.

Want to switch from heavy armor to light magic wielder? NP just buy all the skills, buy new gear and away you go.

PVP would be endlessly dynamic.

Check out Funcom’s “Secret World” incredible idea, much more like Guild Wars 1, even more so than GW2.

But Funcom under-baked another one, and are applying improvements/repair post release. Might be a solid product by now. If only ArenaNet had embraced the virtues of gw1 as much as Funcom did.

I was watching that game but it turned out a laggy, bug filled disaster.

I tried to formulate a meaningful post to get down my take on all this but honestly I couldn’t keep it with in a reasonable length (or cohesion really LOL ;P). I really don’t wanna tread these waters right now anyway after reading the proceeding. I would like to however thank some of the above posters above for giving a fairly succinct clarification of what is horizontal and vertical progression though. Especially the video on “Power-creep”, thank you very much Azjenco for finding and posting that for us all. Very informative my friend.

About all I am reasonably sure of so far is this:

ALL MMOs require a “balance” (for lack of a better term, mix didn’t seem to fit right either) of both vertical and horizontal progression / content to remain relevant and have any factor of longevity. I believe it is the ratio of this “balance” between the two and the speed and style with which it is integrated that mostly define a game as more “hardcore” or “casual” friendly.

People here are confusing cosmetics and horizontal progression. Getting an armor skin isn’t progression. Horizontal progression would be getting new weapons and utility skills.

I have a question that I would like peoples opinions on, in no way is this particularly directed at someone, but is based on a small discussion I had earlier today and related to the topic at hand.

It had been stated in the past that Anet would consider increasing level caps with expansion. Let say they increased the level to 90, with the release of Elona or something. You now have to level up to 90, and get new gear. This would be considered Vertical progression no? Would this be any different than the current addition? If not, why?

Just to be clear, it was argued that the increase in level would just increase the end goal, and was different than gear based vertical progression and was ok. I had argued that in essence, its no different than adding a new tier.

tkalamba.2541:

I have a question that I would like peoples opinions on, in no way is this particularly directed at someone, but is based on a small discussion I had earlier today and related to the topic at hand.

It had been stated in the past that Anet would consider increasing level caps with expansion. Let say they increased the level to 90, with the release of Elona or something. You now have to level up to 90, and get new gear. This would be considered Vertical progression no? Would this be any different than the current addition? If not, why?

Just to be clear, it was argued that the increase in level would just increase the end goal, and was different than gear based vertical progression and was ok. I had argued that in essence, its no different than adding a new tier.

Yes! Leveling is vertical progressions, esp. in a game that claims all content is ‘end game’. In the tradition sense, leveling is not that type of progression. However, leveling is a more acceptable way of such progression. I think on first game release, leveling is acceptable, it is a way to progress through a fresh game. Now there is no need to add levels to a character past 80… I mean Why? Everything is scaled so I ask, “what is the point?”

Yes! Leveling is vertical progressions, esp. in a game that claims all content is ‘end game’. In the tradition sense, leveling is not that type of progression. However, leveling is a more acceptable way of such progression. I think on first game release, leveling is acceptable, it is a way to progress through a fresh game. Now there is no need to add levels to a character past 80… I mean Why? Everything is scaled so I ask, “what is the point?”

Increasing the level cap shares some qualities with adding a new gear tier, but it’s also different in a number of ways that make it a lot more palatable.

- First: Increasing the level cap changes the game. Going from level 80 to 90 means every character has 10 more Trait Points. This changes the game already on its own – and it doesn’t stretch the imagination to think that it might come with more traits. Adding gear with better stats just makes the numbers go up, and doesn’t change anything.

- Second: Guild Wars 2 has a flat experience curve for leveling. If it only took as long to go from 80-90 as it did from 70-80 (or at the least, only took marginally longer), then that would be palatable (though again, only because the game is actually changing – if there were no trait points from 80-90 and all that happened was that the numbers went up, then it once again becomes unacceptable). If it suddenly took 5 million experience points to go up a level, the reaction would be very different.

- Third: Increasing the level cap, but not adding new tiers, would presumably mean that the rarity of ‘top level’ items would remain the same. If a level 90 Exotic is only as hard to get (at level 90) as a level 80 Exotic is to get (at level 80), then I think most people could deal with that. If it suddenly takes 15g and/or ten hours of grinding just to get one equipment piece, this suddenly becomes a lot less okay.

- Fourth: In the scenario described, the level cap comes along with an expansion. Generally speaking, I think people are more likely to give a developer more latitude to make game-changing design decisions when they’re coupled to a major, boxed expansion. In particular, a player is free to look at the features and content of an expansion, and say “Yes, I want that” or “No, I’m not interested”, and either buy or not buy the expansion pack based on what they think of the content it contains.

If a level cap increase can justify itself, and it comes at a point (an expansion pack) where people are already expecting to either re-commit, jump on, or jump off of the game, and it’s not too egregious of a grind, then I’m willing to give it a chance. If it’s just there to be a bullet point on the back of the box and to extend the amount of time that people have to play before they get to the fun part, then no thanks.