Guild Wars 2

gimmethegepgun.1284:

CETheLucid.3964:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

No, actually, the precision, and therefore crit chance, is the same.
The difference lies in the crit damage. Here, have some math:
Average damage multiplier = (chance to not crit) + [(chance to crit) * (crit multiplier)]
The base crit multiplier is 150%, or 1.5.
Average damage multiplier at 35% crit, no added crit damage = (.65) + [(.35) * (1.5)] = 1.175.
Average damage multiplier at 35% crit, 48% crit damage (full Berserker’s, with jewelry) = (.65) + [(.35) * (1.98)] = 1.343

1.343 / 1.175 = 1.14298, meaning the Crit Damage stat of Berserker’s increases your damage by 14.3%.

Larger crit chances generate a larger bonus from Berserker’s:
Avg dmg mult at 50% crit, 0 Crit Dam = (.5) + [(.5) * (1.5)] = 1.25
Avg dmg mult at 50% crit, 48 Crit Dam = (.5) + [(.5) * (1.98)] = 1.49

1.49 / 1.25 = 1.192, or 19.2% damage increase.

Okay and with jewelery, Explorer can narrow that gap back down to around… 10%. Not to mention food.

That still doesn’t stop 10% from being a significant difference.

Okay and with food and jewelry, Explorer is now on par with a Berserker that isn’t using crit chance food. You know what that Berserker is probably eating?

An omnom berry treat for MF.

Berserkers will always be the superior DPS choice, I never contended that. The difference is in the goal. One wants DPS, and one wants shines.

That’s the trade off in that 10%.

The actual difference in the gear is negligible, certainly not 69%. Somewhere in the ball park of 10-20% with/without jewels.

Crit chance food will just about close the gap between Explorer and Berserker and Berserker can open it again doing the same thing.

I appreciate your honesty with the math.

But it’s not a big difference. A good player wearing MF will always be superior to a bad one wearing Berserkers, and vice versa.

You wouldn’t honestly be able to tell a good Explorer and a Berserker apart, unless you were paying very close attention. Both are fragile and need skill to play.

It’s all about the player.

CETheLucid.3964:

Fact is, you need to do your own math. You’re wrong. It’s a 10% difference VS Berserker gear stats (base).

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Precision

Nope it’s not

Explorer’s:
Power: 698 = 1614 Total (916 is base)
Precision: 698 = ~33% crit chance
Berserker’s:
Power: 1003 (30% more power) = 1919 Total (~16% higher power)
Precision: 698 = ~33% crit chance
Crit Damage: 62% = 212% crit damage
Let’s take a dagger for the calculation with an average weapon damage of 952. Also let’s attack a target with 2600 armor (the armor that tooltips compare damage against). Also, let’s take a skill with 1.0 coefficient for easier calculations.
Damage: Damage done = (weapon damage) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)
Damage with MF = 952*1614*1/2600=590 damage
Damage with Berserker = 952*1919*1/2600=702 damage
Now both have 33% chance of being critical so our total average damage is:
(<Non-critical*2>+<critical>) / 3
MF Critical: 590*150%=885
Berserker Critical: 702*212%=1488
Total Average damage with MF: (590*2+885)/3=688,3 dps
Total Average damage with Berserker: (702*2+1488)/3=984 dps

So MF set does 69% of Berserker damage. That’s a fact

CETheLucid.3964:

Berserkers will always be the superior DPS choice, I never contended that. The difference is in the goal. One wants DPS, and one wants shines.

And DPS helps the group, shines do not, and there is the issue

CETheLucid.3964:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

CETheLucid.3964:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

No, actually, the precision, and therefore crit chance, is the same.
The difference lies in the crit damage. Here, have some math:
Average damage multiplier = (chance to not crit) + [(chance to crit) * (crit multiplier)]
The base crit multiplier is 150%, or 1.5.
Average damage multiplier at 35% crit, no added crit damage = (.65) + [(.35) * (1.5)] = 1.175.
Average damage multiplier at 35% crit, 48% crit damage (full Berserker’s, with jewelry) = (.65) + [(.35) * (1.98)] = 1.343

1.343 / 1.175 = 1.14298, meaning the Crit Damage stat of Berserker’s increases your damage by 14.3%.

Larger crit chances generate a larger bonus from Berserker’s:
Avg dmg mult at 50% crit, 0 Crit Dam = (.5) + [(.5) * (1.5)] = 1.25
Avg dmg mult at 50% crit, 48 Crit Dam = (.5) + [(.5) * (1.98)] = 1.49

1.49 / 1.25 = 1.192, or 19.2% damage increase.

Okay and with jewelery, Explorer can narrow that gap back down to around… 10%. Not to mention food.

That still doesn’t stop 10% from being a significant difference.

Okay and with food and jewelry, Explorer is now on par with a Berserker that isn’t using crit chance food. You know what that Berserker is probably eating?

An omnom berry treat for MF.

Berserkers will always be the superior DPS choice, I never contended that. The difference is in the goal. One wants DPS, and one wants shines.

That’s the trade off in that 10%.

The actual difference in the gear is negligible, certainly not 69%. Somewhere in the ball park of 10-20% with/without jewels.

Crit chance food will just about close the gap between Explorer and Berserker and Berserker can open it again doing the same thing.

I appreciate your honesty with the math.

But it’s not a big difference. A good player wearing MF will always be superior to a bad one wearing Berserkers, and vice versa.

You wouldn’t honestly be able to tell a good Explorer and a Berserker apart, unless you were paying very close attention. Both are fragile and need skill to play.

It’s all about the player.

One wants shinies, and they do so on the backs of their group by gimping themselves.
That’s why people have a problem with it.
Well, that and the fact drops are lower because of the existence of MF so everyone else is kittened.
The people that have a problem with it would generally be fairly satisfied with it being shared among the group, but then the people with it start whining about their gear being diluted due to being in a group while conveniently forgetting that that’s true of ALL gear, because the effect of any stat is far less significant in a group.
The best solution would be to remove it from gear entirely, perhaps putting it in an alternate system, say, spend skill points on MF (to a cap ofc), or just completely remove it and make drop rates stop being awful.

Magic find is one of the worst things to happen in GW2 Dungeon runs.
Its perfectly fine solo or with friends.

But if you’re in my speed run party, and you can’t link gear other than magic find, you’ll find a “GTFO LEECH” boot straight out a 2 story window.

party of 5 with FULL magic find gear clearing arah or CoE in a timely manner? Said no one.

Ever.
____
In addition with the new changes. I hope they have an inspect option, because not being able to waypoint back is going to be even more crucial, to kick MF leeches out of my runs.

PPS. Omnom bar is acceptable.

The only thing I’ve managed to get from this thread is that some people hate MF and that if you’re not using berserkers then you’re not worth playing with.

Well, that and the whole “Some people use it in a dungeon so REMOVE IT FROM THE GAME NOW!!!1!” that some have screamed.

The main gripe that many people have with Magic Find is that people that use it contribute less to the group (they could get extra damage or survivability instead of magic find) but get more. Now, you could argue that if you get defeated more often, that’s your problem, not mine. But each time you’re on the ground doing nothing, that also takes more time for me to complete the dungeon.

The idea behind GW2 was that players would not be hindered by the choices of other players. With Magic Find, this is obviously not the case, even if it’s more in theory than in practice.

Tigera.2916:

The only thing I’ve managed to get from this thread is that some people hate MF and that if you’re not using berserkers then you’re not worth playing with.

Well, that and the whole “Some people use it in a dungeon so REMOVE IT FROM THE GAME NOW!!!1!” that some have screamed.

No, if you want a group where everyone is at 250 Magic find sure, no one is stopping anyone from that.

I’d rather go with people putting in their weight, and not be carried through like a leeching parasite. Also it does not have to be Zerker gear, just not MF gear. Ever, unless it a MF gear run and everyone has it on.

But if everyone is doing 30% less damage, and in some cases unable to out dps a boss then your 10 minute run, becomes a 30+minute run of frustration or rage quit wipes.
That 30 minute run becomes 2 hours because you can’t get past the first three silvers doing insane damage and the party can’t keep up.

Its like bringing a rubber chicken to a knife fight, you’ll just get laughed at and stomped.

No thanks.

Like I said, the things I got (thanks to the way arguments were made) is that some people (not all, so if it doesn’t apply to you, don’t go taking umbrage) hate MF and that you’re only acceptable in a group if you are wearing full berserkers.

That, and that some (again, not all… so if it doesn’t apply to you, don’t bother arguing “But I don’t…” it’s a waste of time) think it should be removed completely since some use it in dungeons.

That’s what jumped out at me in this thread… not any arguments/counter-arguments, just the way some have an attitude that only their opinion/playstyle matters.

Now, that said… anyone who says that only certain armours are acceptable doing a certain dungeon that everyone must do in a group if they want to finish the story (yes Anet, I hate you for that little surprise) can go kindly kitten off. Other dungeons where MF basically does nothing? Take that flipping stuff off! (and if you don’t have anything to replace it, get something… less than 2G to fully outfit in lvl80 rares, it’s not hard)

I wonder how many people will assume I’m pro-MF and how many will assume I’m anti-MF?

Mirta.5029:

SneakyErvin.3056:

@Mirta.5029: To answer your question. It’s a selfish stat.

I’ve read through most of your posts in this thread and it doesnt matter what you say, in the end MF gimps you. It doesnt matter if you can survive without the survival stats, you still gimp your character, there is always another stat you can get instead of MF to boost your group.

If you dont need survival stats to survive you pick up more dps stats, not MF stats. Since MF doesnt benefit the group the slightest bit. Also if you are good at surviving without the survival stats and chose not to take them anyways over MF gear you are gimping your group, since if you were to wield the survival set, you would have a higher chance of holding aggro, thus helping your groups with your “immortal” bun. Or is it just that you survive better with a MF set because you never get aggro, because your toughness stats are too low and your damage is weak?

And regarding the Mastercraft vs MF users in a group. The MC user would bring more to the table than the MF user. Their stats would be lower than a Exo geared player, but not to the extent of a MF set. All the MC stats would be worth something, but the MF stat just rips valuble stat points from the gear.

Nope, an MF user, like I said, was TANKING the boss, meaning – holding aggro. This game is more about skill than anything. A skilled MF player brings a lot to the table, so why the hate when you wouldn’t notice the difference?
MC stats are worth something, but it’s 3 stats in low quantities, versus a stat that doesn’t help the team, but 2 stats that are high. A MC user would output less damage, not more.

Actually, I believe that when I see a video of it. Offensive and defensive stats have alot of influence on aggro. Just as an example, I was running around Cursed Shore last night gathering for the daily on my engi when I bump into the champion abom outside the first camp. We start out with 5 people, I do a wee bit of damage, avoid and run around, a few seconds later we are around 15-20 there, I’m doing nothing to the champ and he keeps chasing me thoughout the whole fight (speedy kits ftw). I assume most of the others were running mostly MF gear since they were event farming. It took us ages to get him down and I didnt drop aggro once. My engi is geared in zerk/valkyrie mixed gear. I barely touched him after the initial first 10-15sec.

So a MF holding aggro in an instance only leads me to the conclusion that he either ran with very bad players, or just had a much higher traited toughness than the rest, one of the stats that pull most aggro.

He would still be much more of a benefit to the group if he was in tanky gear or dps gear. MF sacrifices too much for a gain that is too small and too egoistic.

maddoctor.2738:

2. That’s reason enough, why should someone that does less be paid more? It’s the single stat that contributes nothing to a party…

Under the the logic of the MF system, the MF-using player who does less should be paid more because he or she has had to weaken himself or herself in comparison to players who do not use MF. Therefore, the MF user has a harder time fighting and surviving vs. mobs than does the non-MF user. That harder time should be compensated via increased rewards for the player who bears the burden of taking it on .

Having said that, removing MF from the game would be much better than keeping MF in the game.

MF should not be required to get good loot on a regular basis. Rather, everyone should get good loot on a regular basis by default.

SneakyErvin.3056:

So a MF holding aggro in an instance only leads me to the conclusion that he either ran with very bad players, or just had a much higher traited toughness than the rest, one of the stats that pull most aggro.

He would still be much more of a benefit to the group if he was in tanky gear or dps gear.

You do realise that sounds like you are saying that even if someone is doing the best in a group that they need to be in the “perfect” armour set to be acceptable? No matter what you point is, no matter how valid it is, you just demolished any chance of being taken seriously in that regard.

You might as well have just said “If you’re not wearing the perfect gear then you’re a leeching gimp”… which is my major problem with some who are arguing against MF in Dungeons.

On that point, I will be blunt… never mind how it’s screwing over the rest of the group, it’s making it harder on yourself for no reward. Only a fool would insist on using MF in a Dungeon.

Ethics.4519:

Kandrick.8054:

@Ethics – I read it in the same way as you but it does contain the relevant arguments for and against MF gear.

As for contributing more to the team and not dying, read back in the thread I already answered this.

Okay, I read it. My MF set gives power, precision, MF. My PVT, obviously power, vitatlity, toughness.

Yes that person is taking more aggro, however I’m doing more damage thanks to the extra precision.

And yet you are doing less damage than if you have taken a berserker set. You have willingly gimped yourself for a better loot chance – thus, you have willingly decided to screw other players in the group over for personal gain.
More – the mere existence of MF stat lowers drop chance for all players that don’t run max MF gear. It affects me even if i’ll never group with you.
There is absolutely no argument you can make that would make it okay.

Rikimeru Tokesbudz.3816:

the truth of the matter is you guys are just looking for the new gear score to use to discriminate against people with just to suit your delusion of self importance.

Hate gearscore and the elitism/discrimination it brings to a game. It has no place in GW2. Also hate MF. It always, in any game with group-oriented encounters, creates problems as your choice to gimp yourself for greater reward also gimps the group, by definition, without them receiving greater reward.

The LORD God.5102:

maddoctor.2738:

2. That’s reason enough, why should someone that does less be paid more? It’s the single stat that contributes nothing to a party…

Under the the logic of the MF system, the MF-using player who does less should be paid more because he or she has had to weaken himself or herself in comparison to players who do not use MF. Therefore, the MF user has a harder time fighting and surviving vs. mobs than does the non-MF user. That harder time should be compensated via increased rewards for the player who bears the burden of taking it on .

Having said that, removing MF from the game would be much better than keeping MF in the game.

MF should not be required to get good loot on a regular basis. Rather, everyone should get good loot on a regular basis by default.

I somehow knew that the lord god would come to a righteous conclusion on the matter. MF is about reward. We all want to experience a sense of reward when playing a game beyond the gameplay itself. In an MMO with an economy it’s required. MF causes problems in games where grouping is possible. Witness this thread and the many others like it. The answer to MF is to remove it from gear in the game. The answer to the desired sense of reward is to tune the loot system so that it is experienced. It’s almost toooo simple.

I dont’ think it is the “gimping yourself” which bothers me the most.

I just don’t understand the concept why mf user should get more reward than me. Since it is a group thing. Everyone should be given equal rewards.

If magic find is shared between every group member. I don’t think this topic will be brought up.

Astralporing.1957:

And yet you are doing less damage than if you have taken a berserker set.

And another one for the “If you’re not wearing X set, then you’re not doing good enough” list. It’s a bloody stupid argument to use… it lets people dismiss you as a “Gear Elitist”.

You have willingly gimped yourself for a better loot chance – thus, you have willingly decided to screw other players in the group over for personal gain.

And there’s the rest of it… if you’re not using X set, you’re gimped. Nothing else you’ve said, no matter how much it is valid, means a kitten now. Can we avoid this kind of argument?

It’s a very simple point to make… if you use MF in a dungeon, you are making it harder on yourself for nothing. That’s it. No “this gear is better” arguments, no “you’re screwing over others” arguments, (no matter how true or not, that kind of argument won’t work… if it did, there would be no MF in dungeons to complain about) and no “gonna kick you if I see a luck sigil stack” arguments. (which is pretty kitten elitist anyway… and since I run with a luck sigil only until it’s maxed then onto a Air sigil, it’d get me kicked before entering the dungeon. That’ll teach me for being smart about it, right?)

MF… I don’t really know what to say about this. I’m not fussed about people as long as they play well. I am one to get annoyed about jerks that think they can play and spend the fights eating dirt. If they’re new it’s fine as normally they say so and I can help.

I myself run around with no armour, do I get rewards for limping myself?
This is a play choice as I play dungeons a lot so know ins and outs. Fractals are fun but got annoyed when I couldn’t get ascended reliably.

MF isn’t too much of problem for me but better to just rid it all together and have proper loot tables so this is not needed.

Not sure gimping = more rewards as I got 3 charged cores in one CoE run. Maybe there’s truth? (Yes I was Frakking estatic, I’m not on a legendary so gave em away)

Three Krytan seraph are manning an outpost in Queensdale, tasked with guarding a tower against centaur attacks. Each has brought three optional pieces of equipment with them.

Soldier A: “So, what did you guys bring? I brought some binoculars, my trusty longbow, and a sword.”
Soldier B: “I brought a throwing axe, and a sword & shield in case the centaurs get close.”
Soldier C: Great! Sounds like we’re well prepared, then! As for me, I brought a shortbow, a greatsword, and of course I never leave home without my VIP badge!"
Soldier A: “Ha ha ha, good one. No, really, what else did you bring?”
Soldier C: “I just told you. Shortbow, greatsword, and VIP badge.”
Soldier B: “You idiot, how is a VIP badge going to help you do your duty? The centaurs aren’t coming to check our IDs! You intend to block an arrow with a piece of laminated card?”
Soldier C: “Hey, this badge ensures that I get paid 30% more for this mission. Gotta put the kids through school, ya know?”
Soldier A: “How are you going to put your kids through school, if you’re DEAD?! We all have to guard this tower together. You’re endangering all of us because you just want a few extra gold in your pocket!”
Soldier C: “Excuse me, what I bring is none of your business! It’s skill that makes the soldier, not weapons and armor! I’ll kill more centaurs than both of you put together! You’ll all be dead because you suck and don’t know how to fight! It’s my choice to sacrifice combat ability for profit, anyway! I am the greatest soldier here, and I have never gotten hit by a centaur, ever! I don’t make mistakes, and every centaur I see is dead within three seconds! I can even fight naked, and still do better than you jerks!”
Soldier A: “Jeez… can we get this guy transferred to another post or something?”
Solder C: “I HEARD THAT!! HOW DARE YOU, SIR!! You can’t kick me off this team, I will report you to Captain Thackeray and you will be fired for misconduct! The Seraph are all about choice and letting soldiers decide how they want to enjoy being in the army! And I enjoy making more money than you!”
Soldier B: “When I want to make more money, I just take on more work—”
Soldier C: “GTFO, n00b!!”

laokoko.7403:

ya anyway, I dont’ think I care that much since untill someone can statiscally proven mf even mater I don’t care.

I use omnoberry or peach bar mainly for the gold find. Which is an obvious few silver per dungeon run. There isn’t even much trash killing in most dungeon and most of the time people just skip it anyway.

how dare you use omnom and not something useful to the success of the party! You are not at your optimal efficiency unless you use something like Plate of Truffle Steak to get the last 2% possible damage. If you don’t use food or use mf food, you’re off the party!
/end sarcasm/

Fyrebrand.4859:

Three Krytan seraph are manning an outpost in Queensdale, tasked with guarding a tower against centaur attacks. Each has brought three optional pieces of equipment with them.

Soldier A: “So, what did you guys bring? I brought some binoculars, my trusty longbow, and a sword.”
Soldier B: “I brought a throwing axe, and a sword & shield in case the centaurs get close.”
Soldier C: Great! Sounds like we’re well prepared, then! As for me, I brought a shortbow, a greatsword, and of course I never leave home without my VIP badge!"
Soldier A: “Ha ha ha, good one. No, really, what else did you bring?”
Soldier C: “I just told you. Shortbow, greatsword, and VIP badge.”
Soldier B: “You idiot, how is a VIP badge going to help you do your duty? The centaurs aren’t coming to check our IDs! You intend to block an arrow with a piece of laminated card?”

Of course, Soldier A is going to do great blocking arrows with those binoculars that he can’t use with his longbow and that stop him using a bigger/better/kitten/second weapon/shield when up close and personal. Makes Soldier A a bit useless in Melee…

Meanwhile, Soldier B is fine for Melee, but a throwing axe is a bit naff at range… where he would be of much more use because A is busy trying to juggle his binoculars with his longbow, dropping both and making the Centaurs laugh themselves silly. Really not that optimal…

Soldier C however, they’ve brought a good ranged weapon along with a good melee weapon… covering the holes that his colleagues have left. Smart thinking that… he deserves more money for putting up with such inept colleagues.

In other words, it’s a pretty bad example…. But try giving A the throwing axe (which could double as a reasonable weapon for Melee) while B has the binoculars. Now B can spot for A at range, A has better Melee ability, and C has no holes to cover and he’s now the least useful soldier.

laokoko.7403:

I dont’ think it is the “gimping yourself” which bothers me the most.

I just don’t understand the concept why mf user should get more reward than me. Since it is a group thing. Everyone should be given equal rewards.

If magic find is shared between every group member. I don’t think this topic will be brought up.

If MF was shared you would see the same level of outcry with a slightly different line of reasoning. It would now be why do others, who haven’t invested anything on MF, get to share my MF—IT’s NOT FAIR. And it wouldn’t be. Sharing MF was tried in D3 and a variant outcry ensued. There is a simple answer to the problem. Simply remove it from gear.

You know, I grow tired of endless arguments. I’m going to state what I do and no more:
I use MF gear in high loot easy areas (like the first area in volcano fractal)
I switch to PvP gear in hard areas or no loot (like the boss in volcano fractal)
I will boot you from the party if you are a bigot or hater (try to boot anyone for using mf gear or constant yelling at people)
I will quit your party if I’m unable to boot you
I will leave a sucky party if things look hopeless
If you use MF gear when we are struggling, that will likely result in me soon leaving, which will make it impossible for you to get loot.
as long as the party functions, I couldn’t care less what gear you have equipped.
If you’re able to have 200% mf and tank the mossman, I will want to be in a party with you again.

I have yet to see this question addressed. In a game of anti-min/maxing, what does this matter?

We all know, whether you want to admit it or not, that one person doing 5-10% less damage doesn’t really matter in the long run.

Oh no! Now your 30 min long dungeon run turns into 31 minutes. Are you going to blame the guy dying? Are you going to blame the guy not dodging? are you going to blame the guy who missed his interrupt? What about the person who forgot to put his food back on, or didn’t even bring food! Outrageous!

DPS doesn’t require a reason. Either you’re contributing or you’re not. If a basketball player misses the game winning shot, there’s no excuse. It’s like it’s okay because he just didn’t have the skill, but it’s not okay if his shoe was untied. I’m sure you naysayers will pick out some arbitrary detail in the analogy but the point still stands (INB4 He doesn’t have stats on his shoes)

I do not see where this is a problem unless you are trying to tackle the hardest dungeons, and if you are trying to tackle the hardest dungeons, you would do yourself a huge favor by getting a premade group for the task rather than complain about a pug not gearing the way that you feel is best for the team.

Seriously, unless you are talking about dungeons with a high degree of difficulty, all this whining is pointless.

Ethics.4519:

I have yet to see this question addressed. In a game of anti-min/maxing, what does this matter?

We all know, whether you want to admit it or not, that one person doing 5-10% less damage doesn’t really matter in the long run.

Oh no! Now your 30 min long dungeon run turns into 31 minutes. Are you going to blame the guy dying? Are you going to blame the guy not dodging? are you going to blame the guy who missed his interrupt? What about the person who forgot to put his food back on, or didn’t even bring food! Outrageous!

DPS doesn’t require a reason. Either you’re contributing or you’re not. If a basketball player misses the game winning shot, there’s no excuse. It’s like it’s okay because he just didn’t have the skill, but it’s not okay if his shoe was untied. I’m sure you naysayers will pick out some arbitrary detail in the analogy but the point still stands (INB4 He doesn’t have stats on his shoes)

I could just as easily ask, in a game that not about grinding gear, why do we have a stat which solely gives you more of it? Neither of those questions is very good though.

Th issue is not game difficulty or in min/maxing. The problem comes from what we are as humans. When I play, I want to play as well as I can. I want to continually improve my play, my gear, and the other aspects of my build. It’s not work, it’s play. When I play this is what I bring to it and when I play in a group I don’t want to be the guy who causes the wipe. On the contrary, I want to contribute to the groups success as much as I possibly can. Again, it’s a human thing and I think probably a lot of people approach games this way, not all, but a lot.

The problem with MF is that it involves gimping yourself, i.e., not being the best you can in order to receive more reward. It’s stupid in itself as a mechanic. I understand it’s logic, but it wasn’t a very good idea. The problem comes when grouping with others. Even if the content is not at the level where it matters you are still gimping the group when you gimp yourself. Of course, it matters more as the content scales higher. That, and that fact that you gimp the group for a reward that they won’t see.

Raine.1394:

I could just as easily ask, in a game that not about grinding gear, why do we have a stat which solely gives you more of it? Neither of those questions is very good though.

I agree. I don’t think MF should be in the game. But it is in the game so I’m going to use it, and my group shouldn’t look down upon me because I am a very skilled player. If I’m the most skilled player in the group (not saying I am, just if) then why should I sacrifice my personal reward to help carry THEM through the dungeon. Now that’s 4 people being selfish and unskilled.

Raine.1394:

I want to continually improve my play, my gear, and the other aspects of my build. It’s not work, it’s play.

Yes it is play. So why get upset with people playing the way they want it to be and turn it into work. I find this very funny coming from an anti-MF person. People site stats and improvement efficiences like they are an OPEX engineer in a manufacturing plant. If it’s play, just have fun your way. You know your group is doing bad because lack of skill, not a 10% lower DPS, which probably isn’t optimized anyway.

Ethics.4519:

Raine.1394:

I could just as easily ask, in a game that not about grinding gear, why do we have a stat which solely gives you more of it? Neither of those questions is very good though.

I agree. I don’t think MF should be in the game. But it is in the game so I’m going to use it, and my group shouldn’t look down upon me because I am a very skilled player. If I’m the most skilled player in the group (not saying I am, just if) then why should I sacrifice my personal reward to help carry THEM through the dungeon. Now that’s 4 people being selfish and unskilled.

Raine.1394:

I want to continually improve my play, my gear, and the other aspects of my build. It’s not work, it’s play.

Yes it is play. So why get upset with people playing the way they want it to be and turn it into work. I find this very funny coming from an anti-MF person. People site stats and improvement efficiences like they are an OPEX engineer in a manufacturing plant. If it’s play, just have fun your way. You know your group is doing bad because lack of skill, not a 10% lower DPS, which probably isn’t optimized anyway.

To play well is not work. It’s fun. Consider the golfer. There is a reason you see so many driving ranges as you drive around. Those folks are not working by the way; it’s recreation time.

I’m not hardcore, but I do pay attention to theorycrafting. It doesn’t make me an engineer, but it does benefit my play. Maybe it just describes different values and therefore the different values that we bring to group play. I would prefer to play with others who care about their contribution to the groups success. I actually don’t have a problem with the under-geared new 80 or a new player with a low skill level. I do have a problem with a player who does not want to contribute to the group at the level which he or she is capable of.

Raine.1394:

I’m not hardcore, but I do pay attention to theorycrafting. It doesn’t make me an engineer, but it does benefit my play. Maybe it just describes different values and therefore the different values that we bring to group play. I would prefer to play with others who care about their contribution to the groups success. I actually don’t have a problem with the under-geared new 80 or a new player with a low skill level. I do have a problem with a player who does not want to contribute to the group at the level which he or she is capable of.

I deleted the golfing analogy because it’s not a team sport. Also I probably shouldn’t have made the basketball analogy because it’s no use discussing make believe stuff.

Your last statement contradicts the previous one a little bit. That new player with a low skill level could contribute more. They good read up on builds, they could go to the heart of the mists and fine toon the traits to be perfectly in sync with their gear/playstyle. That new under-geared 80 could farm orr until they get some money to buy rare, but they probably don’t want to spend the time so they still have masterwork items.

These are all choices that people make. This contradicts your statement about playing to have fun as opposed to working. I understand that everybody has their right to not play with somebody, that’s fine. But I’m just getting a little tired of people looking down on people who use MF. To me fun is getting good drops. I love the playstyle, but seriously, isn’t it more fun to play through a dungeon and get an exotic that you can sell for 4g, as opposed to running through the dungeon and getting a couple of blues. Both are fun, one is more fun/rewarding.

Also, this is probably one of the most civilized conversations I’ve had about MF gear. So thank you Raine.

Ethics.4519:

Raine.1394:

I’m not hardcore, but I do pay attention to theorycrafting. It doesn’t make me an engineer, but it does benefit my play. Maybe it just describes different values and therefore the different values that we bring to group play. I would prefer to play with others who care about their contribution to the groups success. I actually don’t have a problem with the under-geared new 80 or a new player with a low skill level. I do have a problem with a player who does not want to contribute to the group at the level which he or she is capable of.

I deleted the golfing analogy because it’s not a team sport. Also I probably shouldn’t have made the basketball analogy because it’s no use discussing make believe stuff.

Your last statement contradicts the previous one a little bit. That new player with a low skill level could contribute more. They good read up on builds, they could go to the heart of the mists and fine toon the traits to be perfectly in sync with their gear/playstyle. That new under-geared 80 could farm orr until they get some money to buy rare, but they probably don’t want to spend the time so they still have masterwork items.

These are all choices that people make. This contradicts your statement about playing to have fun as opposed to working. I understand that everybody has their right to not play with somebody, that’s fine. But I’m just getting a little tired of people looking down on people who use MF. To me fun is getting good drops. I love the playstyle, but seriously, isn’t it more fun to play through a dungeon and get an exotic that you can sell for 4g, as opposed to running through the dungeon and getting a couple of blues. Both are fun, one is more fun/rewarding.

Also, this is probably one of the most civilized conversations I’ve had about MF gear. So thank you Raine.

In the golf analogy I was addressing ‘play’ as opposed to ‘work’ not individual play as compared with team play. The distinction is that when I play, I want to play well, I don’t approach it as work. And there was no contradiction in what I said in the post; not even a ‘little bit’. Read it again. It had nothing to do with where players were on a skill or gear curve or why; simply the values they hold. That is why I described the MF problem being a human one as opposed to a specifically game or technical one. Those who have a problem with MF are approaching it from a set of values they hold for themselves and would like to, ideally, see in others.

Raine.1394:

The distinction is that when I play, I want to play well, I don’t approach it as work. And there was no contradiction in what I said in the post; not even a ‘little bit’. Read it again. It had nothing to do with where players were on a skill or gear curve or why; simply the values they hold.

The contradiction is that you say the game should be played for fun, but you are forcing people to play the way you want to because it’s more efficient.

Raine.1394:

That is why I described the MF problem being a human one as opposed to a specifically game or technical one. Those who have a problem with MF are approaching it from a set of values they hold for themselves and would like to, ideally, see in others.

Lack of skill, lack of determination, lack of desire to obtain better results are all human based. It was civil but you intentionally skip over legitimate arguments and don’t even mention them. I feel like I have made some very good points so until those are addressed then I’m done. We both know that we aren’t going to convince each other one way or the other, but when you refuse to acknowledge a relevant point, that’s when the discussion dies.

MF stats on gear needs to go.

MF should just be on consumables, with the stat re-calibrated accordingly.

It’s a selfish stat to build around, which is fine for solo play, but destructive for group play.

Besides, there have been a number of MF data experiments that have many wondering if the entire stat isn’t completely broken, which makes MF not only the selfish choice, but perhaps the “fool’s choice” as well.

The simple fact is that if I even get a whiff of MF gear, I will kick and block that person without a moment’s hesitation. It’s only self-serving and I refuse to have any of it in a team-based environment. The only exceptions are farming runs like CoF path 1. Anything else, zero tolerance.

Fyrebrand.4859:

Three Krytan seraph are manning an outpost in Queensdale….

If he keeps the VIP badge in his breast pocket, then it might deflect an arrow from his heart.

:D

Because its a stat for your own personal gain, that your party has to suffer the consequences of your failure for.

Its like fat people who say obesity is a disease…

I completely disagree with removing magic find.

Magic find promotes skill. The more Magic find you wear, the more skill that your party members is required to complete a dungeon. If a party can’t carry your burdens, then they are bad players and you don’t deserve the reward for finding a crap party.

If your party members succeed, you deserve more reward for placing burden on others. After all, challenging = fun. You gave your party members more fun.

runeblade.7514:

I completely disagree with removing magic find.

Magic find promotes skill. The more Magic find you wear, the more skill that your party members is required to complete a dungeon. If a party can’t carry your burdens, then they are bad players and you don’t deserve the reward for finding a crap party.

If your party members succeed, you deserve more reward for placing burden on others. After all, challenging = fun. You gave your party members more fun.

hahaha best sarcastic comment about Magic Find ever…

Ethics.4519:

Raine.1394:

The distinction is that when I play, I want to play well, I don’t approach it as work. And there was no contradiction in what I said in the post; not even a ‘little bit’. Read it again. It had nothing to do with where players were on a skill or gear curve or why; simply the values they hold.

The contradiction is that you say the game should be played for fun, but you are forcing people to play the way you want to because it’s more efficient.

Raine.1394:

That is why I described the MF problem being a human one as opposed to a specifically game or technical one. Those who have a problem with MF are approaching it from a set of values they hold for themselves and would like to, ideally, see in others.

Lack of skill, lack of determination, lack of desire to obtain better results are all human based. It was civil but you intentionally skip over legitimate arguments and don’t even mention them. I feel like I have made some very good points so until those are addressed then I’m done. We both know that we aren’t going to convince each other one way or the other, but when you refuse to acknowledge a relevant point, that’s when the discussion dies.

I don’t want to force anyone to play the way I want to play, I would simply prefer MF be removed from gear. We all come to positions on what’s best for the game; it’s my position on MF. But, if you think it strengthens yours by intimating mine is coercive, go for it. And, yes, a game should be played largely because it’s fun. ‘Force’ is not fun and it is no part of my position on any aspect of the game. Do you truly believe that having an opinion or position on a matter is coercive? But, I can see why you’re stretching here, I mean you are asserting that my position is contradictory; you would have to make something up to make it so.

I wasn’t aware any of your points were unaddressed. What would you like to see addressed? What relevant point has not been acknowledged?

I hate magic find. It needs to go.

Auesis.7301:

The simple fact is that if I even get a whiff of MF gear, I will kick and block that person without a moment’s hesitation. It’s only self-serving and I refuse to have any of it in a team-based environment. The only exceptions are farming runs like CoF path 1. Anything else, zero tolerance.

The simple fact is that if I even get a whiff of non-optimised gear/stats, I will kick and block that person without a moment’s hesitation. It’s just gimping the team and I refuse to have any of it in a team-based environment. The only exceptions are newbs. Anything else, zero tolerance.

Isn’t it funny that the very same argument is acceptable in one case but not the other? Elitism once more lets people dismiss you as an arrogant kitten so any point you might make is ignored… along with you seeming like the bad guy. Perhaps a different way to argue this might be a good idea? (you know, like how anyone using MF in a dungeon is making it harder for themselves for no gain at all? Only a bloody fool would try to argue in favour of that)

Remove magic find. Problem solved, it hardly does anything anyway.

“Just fine” is not good enough. If you are stacking MF and doing “good” damage, you could be doing even better damage with berserker’s or another set. That is the expectation. So what if your dungeon run was smooth? It could be even smoother and faster if you weren’t leeching.

Stop crying about magic find. That person is still contributing damage you wouldn’t have had if you went in with 4 people. Damage is damage.

Tigera.2916:

Auesis.7301:

The simple fact is that if I even get a whiff of MF gear, I will kick and block that person without a moment’s hesitation. It’s only self-serving and I refuse to have any of it in a team-based environment. The only exceptions are farming runs like CoF path 1. Anything else, zero tolerance.

The simple fact is that if I even get a whiff of non-optimised gear/stats, I will kick and block that person without a moment’s hesitation. It’s just gimping the team and I refuse to have any of it in a team-based environment. The only exceptions are newbs. Anything else, zero tolerance.

Isn’t it funny that the very same argument is acceptable in one case but not the other? Elitism once more lets people dismiss you as an arrogant kitten so any point you might make is ignored… along with you seeming like the bad guy. Perhaps a different way to argue this might be a good idea? (you know, like how anyone using MF in a dungeon is making it harder for themselves for no gain at all? Only a bloody fool would try to argue in favour of that)

That’s so horribly stretched that it physically hurts. There’s a huge difference between not being optimally geared and running magic find. I don’t care about having the best gear that there is and being at your top game 24/7. I’ll take anyone who is even slightly decent at the game. What I will not take is someone specifically with MF gear. I DO care about people who CHOOSE to reduce their effectiveness at the team’s expense for their own selfish gain. That sort of mentality absolutely disgusts me. You’re nothing more than a leech. Can you not see the moral ground I’m basing this on? This is nothing about numbers. This is about the player and his/her mentality.

There is no elitism. I’m weeding out the greedy players who care for no-one but themselves.

ShinraGuardian.8053:

Stop crying about magic find. That person is still contributing damage you wouldn’t have had if you went in with 4 people. Damage is damage.

Ha ha ha! Seriously? Your defense of Magic Find is that it’s better than running with 4 people? Yeah, I guess almost anything would be.

Why is it okay for the Magic Find guy to be the slacker, though? Maybe I would rather sit back and just mindlessly mash 1-5 while checking Facebook and Twitter on my cell. Hey, it’s better than if I weren’t there at all, right? Damage is damage.

Why is it that in all these example scenarios, it’s always assumed that there’s only one Magic Find player, and 4 well-geared others? It’s like part of their justification is that it’s okay for them to wear MF only because they know the rest of the team doesn’t, and therefore they’ll all be okay. They say the team doesn’t suffer that much, but I doubt they’d be saying that if they frequently encountered PUGs where all 5 group members were loaded with Magic Find. Frankly, it’s because not everyone has pre-set their gear in such a selfish way, that you’re able to get through any dungeon content at all.

Fyrebrand.4859:

ShinraGuardian.8053:

Stop crying about magic find. That person is still contributing damage you wouldn’t have had if you went in with 4 people. Damage is damage.

Ha ha ha! Seriously? Your defense of Magic Find is that it’s better than running with 4 people? Yeah, I guess almost anything would be.

Why is it okay for the Magic Find guy to be the slacker, though? Maybe I would rather sit back and just mindlessly mash 1-5 while checking Facebook and Twitter on my cell. Hey, it’s better than if I weren’t there at all, right? Damage is damage.

Why is it that in all these example scenarios, it’s always assumed that there’s only one Magic Find player, and 4 well-geared others? It’s like part of their justification is that it’s okay for them to wear MF only because they know the rest of the team doesn’t, and therefore they’ll all be okay. They say the team doesn’t suffer that much, but I doubt they’d be saying that if they frequently encountered PUGs where all 5 group members were loaded with Magic Find. Frankly, it’s because not everyone has pre-set their gear in such a selfish way, that you’re able to get through any dungeon content at all.

We assume only one person has it for the same reason you assume everyone but you has it.

Whatever you guys all say. But my regular party members love it when I bring my MF armor set. Just because YOU don’t like it, doesn’t mean that I’m not allowed to wear it. Then again, about the loss of DPS. In my party, I don’t have the role of dealing the dmg. I still have the strength to survive and aid my party members (read: healing, buffing) while they do the dmg. I survive longer than the rest of time. Ofcourse in spare time I deal some dmg too.

You know this could all be easy solved by just removing Magic Find and then normalizing drops.

Then no one can complain about the stat differences between Magic Find and regular gear, and drops would be fixed to not rely on Magic Find anymore. Everyone would have the same drop rate and no one would be gimped/gimping their team.

Drops are low as it is already, and it seems the only solution is to wear Magic Find gear. Which in turn, upsets other players in dungeons as they feel like the person in Magic Find gear, is contributing less for their own greed. So if they just fix drops and raise the drop rate, they can remove Magic Find gear and everyone will be happy. Right?

SpyderArachnid.5619:

You know this could all be easy solved by just removing Magic Find and then normalizing drops.

Then no one can complain about the stat differences between Magic Find and regular gear, and drops would be fixed to not rely on Magic Find anymore. Everyone would have the same drop rate and no one would be gimped/gimping their team.

Drops are low as it is already, and it seems the only solution is to wear Magic Find gear. Which in turn, upsets other players in dungeons as they feel like the person in Magic Find gear, is contributing less for their own greed. So if they just fix drops and raise the drop rate, they can remove Magic Find gear and everyone will be happy. Right?

Just because it upsets some players, the players who actually enjoy it needs to pay up? That’s the weakest mindset I’ve heard yet.

“Well I’m upset when I get pwnd by a confusion build mesmer, better remove that and everybody will be happy. Right?”

Just run 2 sets of armor. One (mf) for solo and one for grouping. If you see someone in group run mf either kick them or 1 up them go max mf and let them help carry you. Spite…completely under-rated.