Guild Wars 2

Move along people nothing to see here, just catering to casuals again.

voidwarranty.6193:

Move along people nothing to see here, just catering to casuals again.

Love this. You play GW2 and consider yourself hardcore. You can’t make this up no one would believe you.

I like GW2 I’ve been here Since early access but there is no hardcore in GW2 and that’s fine. I suggest you try a harder game, not quit GW2, I’m not saying leave just try another one and see what hardcore looks like.

Hopefully Raids and high Fractals will be allowed to be super challenging but they will never touch competitive Raiding. After action reviews following successful Raids with actual data used to justify your continued participation in a Raid group is hardcore.

voidwarranty.6193:

Move along people nothing to see here, just catering to casuals again.

Oh kitten we got a kitten in a video game over here. He is HARDCORE!

Go play call of duty or league if you really want a game for hardcores, literally having other players rage themselves into early onset heart problems it’s that hardcore bro. While we casuals go back to our real life jobs and continue to enjoy guild wars as a fun option in our down time.

voidwarranty.6193:

Move along people nothing to see here, just catering to casuals again.

There are still the longer term progression on masteries. As I said in another thread why can’t you give anet some credit for being in the best position to make an informed decision.

voidwarranty.6193:

Move along people nothing to see here, just catering to casuals again.

And? So you want to them to make the game so literally every aspect of it only appeals to ~1% of the current player base? And people are complaining the HoTs areas are empty now..

I for one am very grateful for the change to 250 HP. The only thing that 400HP challenged was my patience. I just hope that they don’t nerf the actual difficulty of content like raids and fractals cause I do like to challenge my skill.

I understand that some my feel a sense of loss of progression but the truth is that there is tons of progression to be made with masteries, fractals, raids, guild halls, precursor/legendary crafting, skins, achievements etc. Locking fun game play mechanics behind an unnecessary grind wall is not needed and is, quite frankly, bad design.

wolfram.8291:

Please please please ANET. Stand your ground. Weren’t Masteries and Unlocking Elite Spec supposed to take longer than getting to level 80 in the base game? Why are you folding to the elite spec complaints and not doing anything about the mastery farming?

I don’t understand… How does 250 versus 400 change your gaming experience?

Julie Yann.5379:

I for one am very grateful for the change to 250 HP. The only thing that 400HP challenged was my patience. I just hope that they don’t nerf the actual difficulty of content like raids and fractals cause I do like to challenge my skill.

I understand that some my feel a sense of loss of progression but the truth is that there is tons of progression to be made with masteries, fractals, raids, guild halls, precursor/legendary crafting, skins, achievements etc. Locking fun game play mechanics behind an unnecessary grind wall is not needed and is, quite frankly, bad design.

Great post.

morrolan.9608:

Zaklex.6308:

You were not expected to be playing through HoT the first time with the Elite Spec, it was expected that you would use your Elite Spec on a second play through.

Second play through? You mean got through the maps doing the events? 1st, 2nd or 3rd play through don’t have much meaning when the game is relatively open world like HOT is.

And who said that anyway?

fellyn.5083:

Zaklex.6308:

You were not expected to be playing through HoT the first time with the Elite Spec, it was expected that you would use your Elite Spec on a second play through.

According to who?

These people that invent reasons for why it’s the way it is are kind of funny since the real reason it’s the way it is has been painfully obvious since about one hour after HoTs launch.

It’s content padding and that’s it.

Quite obviously reading comprehension is not at the top of peoples lists anymore. Intent, intention, inference…those 3 words(which hopefully I won’t have to define) are what I’m used to determine that the Elite Specs were not expected to be used on the first play through of HoT(story if you want to be that anal, but changing the entire class to your Elite Spec is going to make the entire jungle play differently, even if you’ve already uncovered all of the Open World areas…that perhaps is a matter of semantics, but I’m big on semantics.

Following the changes to the amount of Hero Points needed to fully unlock the Elite Spec, my bet is the next change/nerf will be:

The EXP cost of Training Masteries will be reduced along with the amount of Mastery Points needed, making them quicker to obtain.

My reasoning is, that seeing as the cost of unlocking your Elite Spec was changed due to countless “Complaint Threads” made, now there will be something else that will be, “Too Hard” or “Too Grindy” or “Too Time Consuming” ect. and we will see countless more threads about it, and BAM, “New Build Available in 10 Minutes”. will be seen across our screens.

In the end, there will be countless threads saying, “I’m bored, there is nothing to do!” or “Some expansion, where the heck is the content.” or “I finished my personal story on the first day after playing for a few hours.” ect.

Then we call can sit back, and say, “We told you so.” when everyone is bored off their rockers when they where able to get everything unlocked and finished with the first several hours…

Odokuro.5049:

In the end, there will be countless threads saying, “I’m bored, there is nothing to do!” or “Some expansion, where the heck is the content.” or “I finished my personal story on the first day after playing for a few hours.” ect.

Here’s a thought how about you wait for such complaints then check to see whether the person making them complained about the 400 hero points then say I told you so rather than saying it in advance and just adding to the unproductive noise.

Whatever the original intent was, it’s now terrific, imo, that we can play through the jungle the first time with the new spec.

Zaklex.6308:

morrolan.9608:

Zaklex.6308:

You were not expected to be playing through HoT the first time with the Elite Spec, it was expected that you would use your Elite Spec on a second play through.

Second play through? You mean got through the maps doing the events? 1st, 2nd or 3rd play through don’t have much meaning when the game is relatively open world like HOT is.

And who said that anyway?

fellyn.5083:

Zaklex.6308:

You were not expected to be playing through HoT the first time with the Elite Spec, it was expected that you would use your Elite Spec on a second play through.

According to who?

These people that invent reasons for why it’s the way it is are kind of funny since the real reason it’s the way it is has been painfully obvious since about one hour after HoTs launch.

It’s content padding and that’s it.

Quite obviously reading comprehension is not at the top of peoples lists anymore. Intent, intention, inference…those 3 words(which hopefully I won’t have to define) are what I’m used to determine that the Elite Specs were not expected to be used on the first play through of HoT(story if you want to be that anal, but changing the entire class to your Elite Spec is going to make the entire jungle play differently, even if you’ve already uncovered all of the Open World areas…that perhaps is a matter of semantics, but I’m big on semantics.

It’s not an issue of reading comprehension so much as an issue of you failing to make your point properly.

In any case you’re the only person making such assumptions so we can all safely assume you’re wrong and Anet seems to disagree with you as well.

Zaklex.6308:

morrolan.9608:

Zaklex.6308:

You were not expected to be playing through HoT the first time with the Elite Spec, it was expected that you would use your Elite Spec on a second play through.

Second play through? You mean got through the maps doing the events? 1st, 2nd or 3rd play through don’t have much meaning when the game is relatively open world like HOT is.

And who said that anyway?

fellyn.5083:

Zaklex.6308:

You were not expected to be playing through HoT the first time with the Elite Spec, it was expected that you would use your Elite Spec on a second play through.

According to who?

These people that invent reasons for why it’s the way it is are kind of funny since the real reason it’s the way it is has been painfully obvious since about one hour after HoTs launch.

It’s content padding and that’s it.

Quite obviously reading comprehension is not at the top of peoples lists anymore. Intent, intention, inference…those 3 words(which hopefully I won’t have to define) are what I’m used to determine that the Elite Specs were not expected to be used on the first play through of HoT(story if you want to be that anal, but changing the entire class to your Elite Spec is going to make the entire jungle play differently, even if you’ve already uncovered all of the Open World areas…that perhaps is a matter of semantics, but I’m big on semantics.

You aren’t wrong of course anyone should understand this math.

214 Hero Points from Tyria (max including Krait Obelisk) is the most any player has on any characters when entering the jungle for the first time. Anet clearly intended players to be required to earn their eSpecs by nearly 100% the entire xpac through exploration. This should never be in dispute, it’s math.

This design wasn’t enjoyed by many players and has been changed but you are correct, they did intend for us to complete all maps in the Xpac and vanilla to get eSpecs.

I’m pleased they changed course as I have too many characters to run through Maguuma.

Okay, so now I log onto any of my characters that have never been to the jungle and they have 80% of their specialization completed.
I run to a few easy hero challenges in Verdant Brink and get to 100%. That’s character progression done for the next 3 years, I guess…

Thanks, [can’t say that on a polite forum]!

Cerpin.9152:

Okay, so now I log onto any of my characters that have never been to the jungle and they have 80% of their specialization completed.
I run to a few easy hero challenges in Verdant Brink and get to 100%. That’s character progression done for the next 3 years, I guess…

Thanks, [can’t say that on a polite forum]!

Most people don’t have 100% map completion on all their characters though.

MrH.2591:

Cerpin.9152:

Okay, so now I log onto any of my characters that have never been to the jungle and they have 80% of their specialization completed.
I run to a few easy hero challenges in Verdant Brink and get to 100%. That’s character progression done for the next 3 years, I guess…

Thanks, [can’t say that on a polite forum]!

Most people don’t have 100% map completion on all their characters though.

A few of my characters also don’t have 100%. But I got them the heropoints in preparation for HoT ( what else was there to do?). If you don’t bother with hearts it’s just a matter of running through the maps and collecting them. Zero challenge, a meaningless effort really.
Just like the few VB heropoints needed are now. Just spend a few minutes walking there.

If obtaining an Elite Spec is the only progression that matters to people, then ANet has failed big time. Maybe it’s because the more difficult aspects of HoT were not included at launch?

It makes me upset when people call tedious things “difficult”

Cerpin.9152:

MrH.2591:

Cerpin.9152:

Okay, so now I log onto any of my characters that have never been to the jungle and they have 80% of their specialization completed.
I run to a few easy hero challenges in Verdant Brink and get to 100%. That’s character progression done for the next 3 years, I guess…

Thanks, [can’t say that on a polite forum]!

Most people don’t have 100% map completion on all their characters though.

A few of my characters also don’t have 100%. But I got them the heropoints in preparation for HoT ( what else was there to do?). If you don’t bother with hearts it’s just a matter of running through the maps and collecting them. Zero challenge, a meaningless effort really.
Just like the few VB heropoints needed are now. Just spend a few minutes walking there.

yeh, but not everyone plays gw2 for pve.
my guild mainly plays wvw and spvp and barely ever does any pve.
u have to realise that only because u like pve, doesnt mean everyone does. if u had to get your elite specialisation by grinding wvw and spvp for weeks (or even months cause most of us have like 8-10 classes or even more) u would also not be too happy about that.

the only real way to get the hp right now in a decent way, is to go pve as the wvw heropoint aquiring is horrible.

Cerpin.9152:

Okay, so now I log onto any of my characters that have never been to the jungle and they have 80% of their specialization completed.
I run to a few easy hero challenges in Verdant Brink and get to 100%. That’s character progression done for the next 3 years, I guess…

Thanks, [can’t say that on a polite forum]!

Great, all the more time to work on your player skill progression.

wolfram.8291:

Please please please ANET. Stand your ground. Weren’t Masteries and Unlocking Elite Spec supposed to take longer than getting to level 80 in the base game? Why are you folding to the elite spec complaints and not doing anything about the mastery farming?

Your comparison is deeply flawed. I’ll explain why. A player unlocks their Elite skill in the base game at level 31 not level 80. Although they don’t have all the utility skills and all trait lines maxed at level 31, they have enough to create a viable build and enjoy the core play mechanics of their class. With Elite Specializations and HoT the player is in level 80 zones were they can not afford to waste one a trait line. They may have the Elite Specialization partial unlocked by the middle of the second map but they can’t max out the trait line until they have spent the 250 points (400 under the hold system). The old system locked out many characters from being able to play the HoT content with their Elite Spec and turned it into an end-game reward. End-game rewards should be cosmetic or stat boost items (e.g. the Elite Spec skins and armor/weapon upgrades) but not gift a core play mechanic. It was bad design and now it’s fixed.

They did the right thing. As it was originally setup, those entering HoT with map competition has 213 hero points, making the full unlock possible about 50% into the new content. Think about it at a higher level in more generic, play mechanic sense. Players who did not have map competition we’re dealing with unlocking them as an end-game reward. Gw2 overs many optional achievement paths. It made no sense that players that elected to go after the map competition achievement over other options should be rewarded with being able to unlock and enjoy the last 50-60% of the HoT content with their elite specs while others were locked out. Assume a player has a small number of hours to spend in game each week. The original system punished players who elected to go play WvW, PvP, run Dungeons or Fractals, etc.. instead of spend their in-game time on the map competition achievement. The change still allows those who did map competition t enjoy a head start on the elite spec, but it doesn’t lock more casual players (or players who simply don’t find map completition fun) out of being able to enjoy actually playing HoT with their elite specs. 400 down to 250 is a fair compromise. It’s good for the game.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

fellyn.5083:

Anowyyn.2304:

Bryzy.2719:

Cerpin.9152:

I am also disappointed that the “I want it now and I’m going to cry until I get it”-fraction wins again…
And now they will feel justified and will keep whining until they get legendaries as login rewards.

Beautiful example of a ridiculous Strawman argument.

After the 250 HP update, people won’t get their Elite Specs right away. 250 HPs still require time and effort for most people to get.

In fact what we’re seeing is that only “hardcore” players who likely don’t have jobs, or are students, or are generally people with a lot of time spare to play this game were the only ones who were able to unlock their Elite Specs straight away.

People such as yourself who make childish non-arguments towards “whiners” (and by “whiners” you mean the majority of people criticising a legitimately bad game feature) most likely fall into the above category, and as such ignorantly fail to recognise the fact that many players cannot afford more than 1-2 hours per night to play this game due to real life responsibilities that consume a lot of time.

Many of the, as you say, “whiners” on here have in fact been saying the same thing: keep the “earning” aspect there, but reduce the unnecessary grind. Not a single person on here has asked for their Elite Spec to be handed to them straight away. Grow up.

Anyone who calls someone a child on a forum or tells people to grow up should plainly be ignored. Resorting to insults is not constructive or adding anything to a conversation and shows your opinion toward those who disagree with you.

The only thing I will add to this is that just because -you- feel it’s a bad game feature, doesn’t mean it is. That’s an opinion.

So what is someone who makes strawman arguments and labels everyone who disagrees as whiners?

Should that person be listened to?

^Sanest person on this thread.
Suddenly many “hardcore” players come out of the woodwork to accuse everyone who did not agree with them of whining and crying. Only to start whining and crying about it themselves. Hippocrites of the year.

You both misunderstood my comment to that individual, who I believe has since deleted their post. If you think something is a bad game design, because it’s something you don’t like (whether it’s 400 points or 250 points, it doesn’t matter which), it’s an opinion and just that. Neither option is bad game design. Disagree away, it’s still just your opinion.

And if you took that as a ‘whining and crying’ post, I’m curious as to what you believe isn’t.

Reading the forums this week has made something abundantly clear:

If you agree with so-and-so, you are a smart person, you “get it,” and you are “doing an MMO right.”

If you disagree with so-and-so, you are a whining, casual laze-about that is ruining the entire MMO genre for “skilled players.” (Yes, I’ve seen more than one person making this actual statement.)

I think the whole hero point thing could have been avoided if we unlocked our elites through story quests as opposed to hero points. We wouldn’t have many complaints about how long it takes because you can have a party help you power through the story of becoming your Elite spec designed to take down the Dragons. I also think it just makes the Elite Spec seem more appealing through story telling because your elite spec is elite for a reason. We just don’t seem to know why it’s an elite spec though.

As it is now, in WVW anyway, not many of the Elite specs are even worth running with because it sacrifices a whole trait line, and many times it doesn’t even have good synergy with the rest of the class (I’m looking at you Tempest). So giving a story incentive to the class would make it seem cool to have because then it builds your character’s story.

Julie Yann.5379:

I for one am very grateful for the change to 250 HP. The only thing that 400HP challenged was my patience. I just hope that they don’t nerf the actual difficulty of content like raids and fractals cause I do like to challenge my skill.

I understand that some my feel a sense of loss of progression but the truth is that there is tons of progression to be made with masteries, fractals, raids, guild halls, precursor/legendary crafting, skins, achievements etc. Locking fun game play mechanics behind an unnecessary grind wall is not needed and is, quite frankly, bad design.

It’s true there are still areas of progression in the game, but as we can see from the response to CoF farming, masteries are not one of those areas. The idea that fun game play is locked behind the elite spec isn’t true. You can play all the HoT content without it and calling it a grind is subjective.

The fact that anet made this change less than a week after launch is what really worries me. What if raids are launched and they’re truly challenging but people don’t have the patience to learn how to beat it? If you don’t have that patience to get the elite spec in more than a few days are you sure your going to want raids to still be difficult?

All of the arguments against the change in this thread. I wonder what the nay-sayers would say if Masteries originally were character-bound only, and not account-wide.

Maxwell.7843:

wolfram.8291:

Please please please ANET. Stand your ground. Weren’t Masteries and Unlocking Elite Spec supposed to take longer than getting to level 80 in the base game? Why are you folding to the elite spec complaints and not doing anything about the mastery farming?

I don’t understand… How does 250 versus 400 change your gaming experience?

It doesn’t yet. I already had my elite spec on my main. Now I just have a bunch of hero points I can’t use.
Most of the other characters I play will have it soon too now. It’s faster, but I won’t feel the same sense of achievement as before, and I’ll be less motivated to explore.

Personally, I don’t get why it is people wanted elite specs to be so far away. There’s no benefit to not getting it. It is like there is some vague existential desire for things to be far away.

It’s a video game. Lower barrier of entry makes more people happy.

Making grind to earn achievement points, masteries, hero point… Its cheap easy way to make non existent content. Make the money $$$$$$ provide nothing to customers in real content.

Where are more dungeons??? If we wanted raid content, why wouldnt ppl play wow? A high number of ppl like existing layout dungeons 5 man.

Heck, it prob be better without the expansion. Game was much much better.

The only people happy with this expansion is the same people who play linage back then. Hit the wooden target doll for 5 hours to level up. Content galore!

Edit: In my opinion, have a check mark/option do you want to hit the wooden doll content or do you want non existent content already handed to you on a plate? Keep both camp happy.

wolfram.8291:

The fact that anet made this change less than a week after launch is what really worries me. What if raids are launched and they’re truly challenging but people don’t have the patience to learn how to beat it? If you don’t have that patience to get the elite spec in more than a few days are you sure your going to want raids to still be difficult?

Because hero points are the only thing they’ve really touched insofar as reducing the requirements for, apart from an instance of unreasonable gating. As I’ve been saying a number of times why not have some faith that anet can make an informed decision about such things, they are in the bets position to after all. Raid rewards are legendary armor there is no way they will be making those casual. Look at ascended they haven’t made it much easier to get.

With 20 alts, the 250 point change is quite welcome.

Seriously people, it is the player that is or is not “elite”, this change means next to nothing to some.

I have seen some specializations get both totally owned in the jungle, and do the owning. All ANet did with this change is make it so you can get it without having to spend time waiting on someone to help you.

Of course if you are one on the very few that earned them all solo whilst naked, then good for you. However I like having fun, not waiting to have it. As time goes by the wait at a single hero point could be VERY long indeed for those of us that could use some backup; and for that I applaud the change.

edit: clarity

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Personally, I don’t get why it is people wanted elite specs to be so far away. There’s no benefit to not getting it. It is like there is some vague existential desire for things to be far away.

Most of the complaints I’ve seen have been from those who’d already gotten their 400 points before the change — or who were at least close to getting it. Call it “grinder’s remorse?”

Yeah, I’ve seen a lot of comments along the lines of “I was the only one in my guild with this and now everyone has it. Put it back!”

I don’t understand the moaning about this. You don’t want other players to play elite classes… why? Why set the bar at 400 when 250 is fair. It’s still a good deal of work to get that, not to mention the points you spend to unlock everything else before the elite spec is available.

If YOU feel it’s too easy on yourself, just get the required 400 Hero Points before you unlock your elite spec. Nobody is forcing you to unlock it as soon as you get to 250.

wolfram.8291:

Now I just have a bunch of hero points I can’t use.

That you can’t use …… yet.

wolfram.8291:

Now I just have a bunch of hero points I can’t use.

That you can’t use …… yet.

wolfram.8291:

Now I just have a bunch of hero points I can’t use.

That you can’t use …… yet.

Third time’s a charm?

Okay let’s be honest. 400 hero points wasn’t any sort of challenge, more than it was a huge time sink. All Anet did was make it a little less time-gated. Also, to those who want to feel “special” because they have a lot of time to throw at gaming, please stop stroking your kittens. Do not look down on gamers that you label as “casuals.” You are not better than them. (If you think you are, go ahead and get out of my community. kthx)

wolfram.8291:

Please please please ANET. Stand your ground. Weren’t Masteries and Unlocking Elite Spec supposed to take longer than getting to level 80 in the base game?

Masteries yes. Elite specs were originally supposed to cost only 175 hero points however (according to datamined data). Upping them to 400 was a last moment change, made most likely for reasons completely unrelated to those specs.

Wibbles.3726:

An “elite” spec should be something that isn’t just given to you

1. Those specs are “elite” in name only. Anet themselves clarified that they don’t intend those specs to be better than core classes.
2. They aren’t “just given” to you. Getting 250 hero points takes a lot of time and effort – it’s just that some people made large part of that time and effort earlier.

BeardRex.6739:

The biggest problem I have with it is that this is a sign that this will FOREVER be the standard.

Good. Changing core target group few years into the game is almost never a good decision. Especially when you are trying to shift the game aim from the majority to minority of your game population.

BeardRex.6739:

GW2 will always be about instant gratifiaction.

That’s a big strawman you are making here. Seriously.

BeardRex.6739:

The best solution would have been to restructure the training steps to give you all the utility skills first, the traits. I think that would have stopped a lot of complaints.

For some specs, maybe. For others traits are way more important than skills.

BeardRex.6739:

It would also fix the problem Heralds had where they didn’t have alternative skills to use

Nah. Revenant is simply badly designed for partial progress. Whether it is core or espec, the design for some reason assumes you have everything already unlocked, and doesn’t concern itself with partially leveled characters at all.

Felahr.9830:

Its not special anymore, it doesnt show you mastered Maguuma, multiple zones, and put 40 hero loci of work into your character.

And it never should have. You’ve just attached some unreasonable expectations to it.

voidwarranty.6193:

Move along people nothing to see here, just catering to casuals again.

Yeah, developers actually listening to their core customer group are such a surprising sight nowadays that when it happens, it gets labeled as “catering”.

Zaklex.6308:

Intent, intention, inference…those 3 words(which hopefully I won’t have to define) are what I’m used to determine that the Elite Specs were not expected to be used on the first play through of HoT

Interesting, I’m wondering what did you infer it from, since there was no basis for such assumptions prior to launch. Quite the opposite, all the hints and leaks up to that point suggested that the hero points from the full map completion on core game would be enough.

Odokuro.5049:

In the end, there will be countless threads saying, “I’m bored, there is nothing to do!” or “Some expansion, where the heck is the content.” or “I finished my personal story on the first day after playing for a few hours.” ect.

Maybe a solution to that is to make more actual content, instead of concentrating on padding in the form of mastery gates and espec HP grind.

wolfram.8291:

It’s true there are still areas of progression in the game, but as we can see from the response to CoF farming, masteries are not one of those areas.

Correction: Core masteries aren’t. That’s because Anet simply doesn’t care about core anymore.

tbh, they didn’t go back on their word

it takes 3 days to reach 80 in hardcore mode, but it can take longer to obtain all the HP to unlock all cores and specialization