Guild Wars 2

phys.7689:

Random.4691:

I love how when a group can’t down a boss on their first or second try in a beta = Must have Ascended.

content designed based on ascended
+ the best groups needing 5-6 attempts ON THE FIRST MINI BOSS
+ everyone having access to any ascended gear set they want on demand
+ many groups failing after 2 hours, even with ascended ON THE FIRST MINIBOSSS

= why are you dragging the team down by not coming with the best stats you can, we failed 4 times already quits team and starts new one with gear checks instituted.

mathematical need isnt really going to come into play.
requiring everyone to have ascended basically ensures better chance of success, and less mastery required to succeed, which makes it a feasible request.

most people arent willing to fail 2-3 more times hoping everyone gets 10% more effecient after failing

It’s the first day of brand new content. If there were teams that were taking less than 5-6 tries on a 1 day old boss in a new game mode then the content is too easy.

I’m guessing that ascended gear mats are going to be 4-5 times the prices they are now following HoT and raids.

Windsagio.1340:

phys.7689:

Random.4691:

I love how when a group can’t down a boss on their first or second try in a beta = Must have Ascended.

content designed based on ascended
+ the best groups needing 5-6 attempts ON THE FIRST MINI BOSS
+ everyone having access to any ascended gear set they want on demand
+ many groups failing after 2 hours, even with ascended ON THE FIRST MINIBOSSS

= why are you dragging the team down by not coming with the best stats you can, we failed 4 times already quits team and starts new one with gear checks instituted.

mathematical need isnt really going to come into play.
requiring everyone to have ascended basically ensures better chance of success, and less mastery required to succeed, which makes it a feasible request.

most people arent willing to fail 2-3 more times hoping everyone gets 10% more effecient after failing

It’s the first day of brand new content. If there were teams that were taking less than 5-6 tries on a 1 day old boss in a new game mode then the content is too easy.

irrelevant.
point is, if you take 5 to 6 times, you will likely take at least 6-7 times if you have to be better at the game to achieve the same goal
that translates to more time wasted.

which translates to players not wanting to take people who arent the best they can be. People letting an exotic guy join will be the exception, not the rule. Therefore saying you can beat it in exotics is not that relevant. Most people will have to get ascended before people will seriously attempt raids with them.

which is actually what anet figured when designing them. player psychology is an important part of game design.

lets cut to the chase, lets bet, i bet that ascended will be the meta requirement for raids by and large, are you saying that it wont be the case?

phys.7689:

Windsagio.1340:

phys.7689:

Random.4691:

I love how when a group can’t down a boss on their first or second try in a beta = Must have Ascended.

content designed based on ascended
+ the best groups needing 5-6 attempts ON THE FIRST MINI BOSS
+ everyone having access to any ascended gear set they want on demand
+ many groups failing after 2 hours, even with ascended ON THE FIRST MINIBOSSS

= why are you dragging the team down by not coming with the best stats you can, we failed 4 times already quits team and starts new one with gear checks instituted.

mathematical need isnt really going to come into play.
requiring everyone to have ascended basically ensures better chance of success, and less mastery required to succeed, which makes it a feasible request.

most people arent willing to fail 2-3 more times hoping everyone gets 10% more effecient after failing

It’s the first day of brand new content. If there were teams that were taking less than 5-6 tries on a 1 day old boss in a new game mode then the content is too easy.

irrelevant.
point is, if you take 5 to 6 times, you will likely take at least 6-7 times if you have to be better at the game to achieve the same goal
that translates to more time wasted.

which translates to players not wanting to take people who arent the best they can be. People letting an exotic guy join will be the exception, not the rule. Therefore saying you can beat it in exotics is not that relevant. Most people will have to get ascended before people will seriously attempt raids with them.

which is actually what anet figured when designing them. player psychology is an important part of game design.

lets cut to the chase, lets bet, i bet that ascended will be the meta requirement for raids by and large, are you saying that it wont be the case?

Pre-answer aside: You’re still misusing meta

Answer: I think people might, but like the current ‘meta’ situation if it does occur it will largely be a player construct. The player preferences most enforced are often utterly not meaningful.

Now the full answer: I’d say that it’s 50/50 that you’re right that players will consider it ‘required’, regardless of whether they’re right. Even if they do, it’ll be similar to the current dungeon ‘meta’ where as the game ages it’ll become less and less meaningful.

~~~

even shorter version: You might be right about player expectations, but only because players like to set needless limits on each other.

So your entire idea is for players who have no experience in GW 2 instanced content to be able to participate in Raids, even though they lack the experience and the skill required for them. Skipping a great deal of a difficulty curve can be a very dangerous thing.

That may be true, but Ascended or not Ascended has nothing to do with that. You can have Ascended armor with fairly minimal player skill, or you can have max player skill and not own Ascended. If you argue that players should have to pass some sort of “skill check” before being able to enter Raids, then that might be warranted, but has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion about gear.

If you are not smart or can’t study hard enough to go to med school to become a doctor than you can’t be a doctor, there is no alternative route. If you are not skilled or can’t persevere hard enough to do raids in exotic gear than you can’t be legendary. It’s that simple there no alternative.

Yes, but being a doctor is not a reward, it is a route. The reward would be something like a fancy house or car, and you don’t have to become a doctor to get a fancy house or car, you just need to accumulate a lot of money, and if you do not have the specific skills or interests to become a doctor, you could instead become a lawyer, or a business exec, or win the lottery, or just work a middle-management job for many more years than it would take the doctor, there are multiple paths that all lead to the same rewards, that is what I’m looking for here.

Do you guys know what legendary means? It means you are the best the top you have conquered the game, it is not just some shiny skin you can buy of the tp.

Dude, relax. “Legendary” just means that they picked the word “Legendary” to slap on the fancy weapon skins they made. It has NEVER conferred that the player holding it is somehow “a legend.”

even shorter version: You might be right about player expectations, but only because players like to set needless limits on each other.

Yes, but that’s the point being discussed, that ANet should probably take moves to head off this “needless player-based limit.” by either A. ensuring that Ascended stats will not be important to raid success, B. providing easier access to Ascended gear so that all players who need it can get it, or C. scaling stats within the raid so that ascended stats make no difference.

Zach.2618:

Do you guys know what legendary means?

It does not mean what you claim.

Owning a legendary definitely doesn’t mean that a player is good at the game or in any way legendary in talent. They are not top players and they haven’t “won the game.”

phys.7689:

Windsagio.1340:

phys.7689:

Random.4691:

I love how when a group can’t down a boss on their first or second try in a beta = Must have Ascended.

content designed based on ascended
+ the best groups needing 5-6 attempts ON THE FIRST MINI BOSS
+ everyone having access to any ascended gear set they want on demand
+ many groups failing after 2 hours, even with ascended ON THE FIRST MINIBOSSS

= why are you dragging the team down by not coming with the best stats you can, we failed 4 times already quits team and starts new one with gear checks instituted.

mathematical need isnt really going to come into play.
requiring everyone to have ascended basically ensures better chance of success, and less mastery required to succeed, which makes it a feasible request.

most people arent willing to fail 2-3 more times hoping everyone gets 10% more effecient after failing

It’s the first day of brand new content. If there were teams that were taking less than 5-6 tries on a 1 day old boss in a new game mode then the content is too easy.

irrelevant.
point is, if you take 5 to 6 times, you will likely take at least 6-7 times if you have to be better at the game to achieve the same goal
that translates to more time wasted.

which translates to players not wanting to take people who arent the best they can be. People letting an exotic guy join will be the exception, not the rule. Therefore saying you can beat it in exotics is not that relevant. Most people will have to get ascended before people will seriously attempt raids with them.

which is actually what anet figured when designing them. player psychology is an important part of game design.

lets cut to the chase, lets bet, i bet that ascended will be the meta requirement for raids by and large, are you saying that it wont be the case?

If you think Raiding that involves wipes is “wasting time” you really are not interested in Raiding.

If you worry about not being let into groups asking for Ascended then 1) get Ascended 2) don’t join those groups.

Coulter.2315:

phys.7689:

Windsagio.1340:

phys.7689:

Random.4691:

I love how when a group can’t down a boss on their first or second try in a beta = Must have Ascended.

content designed based on ascended
+ the best groups needing 5-6 attempts ON THE FIRST MINI BOSS
+ everyone having access to any ascended gear set they want on demand
+ many groups failing after 2 hours, even with ascended ON THE FIRST MINIBOSSS

= why are you dragging the team down by not coming with the best stats you can, we failed 4 times already quits team and starts new one with gear checks instituted.

mathematical need isnt really going to come into play.
requiring everyone to have ascended basically ensures better chance of success, and less mastery required to succeed, which makes it a feasible request.

most people arent willing to fail 2-3 more times hoping everyone gets 10% more effecient after failing

It’s the first day of brand new content. If there were teams that were taking less than 5-6 tries on a 1 day old boss in a new game mode then the content is too easy.

irrelevant.
point is, if you take 5 to 6 times, you will likely take at least 6-7 times if you have to be better at the game to achieve the same goal
that translates to more time wasted.

which translates to players not wanting to take people who arent the best they can be. People letting an exotic guy join will be the exception, not the rule. Therefore saying you can beat it in exotics is not that relevant. Most people will have to get ascended before people will seriously attempt raids with them.

which is actually what anet figured when designing them. player psychology is an important part of game design.

lets cut to the chase, lets bet, i bet that ascended will be the meta requirement for raids by and large, are you saying that it wont be the case?

If you think Raiding that involves wipes is “wasting time” you really are not interested in Raiding.

If you worry about not being let into groups asking for Ascended then 1) get Ascended 2) don’t join those groups.

Your theory about raiders liking wiping because members are not equipped is false.

And design that ignores how players will interact with it needs to be reconsidered. The answer y o undesirable design should not be deal with it.

Btw i dont know why you are making personal assumptions about me, my playing habits or how my character s are geared.

I have full ascended that doesnt mean i cant see the flaws in interaction with existing systems for those that do not.

phys;

Coulter’s and My thesis is that the design limitation is, at best, exaggerated.

You seem to both believe it’s going to be a serious barrier and to be mad about it. It ends up feeling like borrowing offense.

Windsagio.1340:

phys;

Coulter’s and My thesis is that the design limitation is, at best, exaggerated.

You seem to both believe it’s going to be a serious barrier and to be mad about it. It ends up feeling like borrowing offense.

Coulter doesnt seem to be responding to what i say but what he thinks i mean. Or what he believes my agenda is.

I have known many players who specifically avoided getting ascended because it drained the fun out of the game for them.

In the past at least i could tell them, well you only need it to repeat high end fractals.

This no longer applies.

The fact that its doable is less relevant than what is expected. Many players including those that do raids will first seek to maximize their mechanical advantage when confronted with challenge.

Problem is ascended aquisition is bad. It only functioned as a long term prestige dont worry about it goal. When you actually are expected to have it, it will be incredibly frustrating for a lot of players.

Like i said i knew many many players who hated ascended crafting, didnt want to join large premade guilds, and were annoyed by having to clock in for dailies or fall behind.

But you don’t answer the idea that the requirement is kitten.

In the end we’re still all up in arms over a dev saying something stupid that they had to 80+% retract.

Windsagio.1340:

But you don’t answer the idea that the requirement is kitten.

In the end we’re still all up in arms over a dev saying something stupid that they had to 80+% retract.

The dev didnt have to say it.
You miss the point
A 10% advantage at something that is hard is a 10% advantage. A 5% is a 5%

It will always be easier to do the same content with the same players if they have better gear. If the content is actually hard this translates to more success and an easier time to do it.

It would be unreasonable of me to suggest people not ask people to put their best foot foward by having good gear. Everyone not geared well makes raids harder and longer for the other 9 guys.

Yes some people dont mind, but those are altruistic people, expecting and requiring altruism from others, while you bring less to the table is not loved by many.

Short version ascended will be player expectedb etiquette for raids so ascended aquisition should be less of a long term grindy goal than it was designed to be

Celtic Lady.3729:

Owning a legendary definitely doesn’t mean that a player is good at the game or in any way legendary in talent. They are not top players and they haven’t “won the game.”

That is why anet is trying to redefine the meaning of legendary to make them truly based on player skill lvl. Anet did the 1st batch of legendaries wrong and now most people feel entitled to have them handed to them on a silver plate. If you want the legendary armor you’ll just have to do raids that’s what anet set the bar as.

I don’t know. Eternity seems really nice still. I wouldn’t look at someone who has eternity and say “oh he got it when it was really easy” ;D I think the old legendaries still have values.

phys.7689:

Windsagio.1340:

But you don’t answer the idea that the requirement is kitten.

In the end we’re still all up in arms over a dev saying something stupid that they had to 80+% retract.

The dev didnt have to say it.
You miss the point
A 10% advantage at something that is hard is a 10% advantage. A 5% is a 5%

It will always be easier to do the same content with the same players if they have better gear. If the content is actually hard this translates to more success and an easier time to do it.

It would be unreasonable of me to suggest people not ask people to put their best foot foward by having good gear. Everyone not geared well makes raids harder and longer for the other 9 guys.

Yes some people dont mind, but those are altruistic people, expecting and requiring altruism from others, while you bring less to the table is not loved by many.

Short version ascended will be player expectedb etiquette for raids so ascended aquisition should be less of a long term grindy goal than it was designed to be

This is true…in the case of pugging the content. It’s extremely likely guildmates and friends will encourage Ascended but not outright ostracize relationships for it, due to how negligible it is.

I understand what you are saying Phys, but another point to bear in mind is that once the content becomes easier to clear due to the mechanics becoming more understood, the requirements will drop universally. I don’t see the first raid after a year having pugs request anything more than Exotic Gear with the proper stats and runes, and simply asking for ‘Experience’ or ‘Will explain fights’.

For now, we will likely see your predictions, but over the course of the year to follow HoT we will likely see things turn easier until the next raid is released.

Zach.2618:

Celtic Lady.3729:

Owning a legendary definitely doesn’t mean that a player is good at the game or in any way legendary in talent. They are not top players and they haven’t “won the game.”

That is why anet is trying to redefine the meaning of legendary to make them truly based on player skill lvl. Anet did the 1st batch of legendaries wrong and now most people feel entitled to have them handed to them on a silver plate. If you want the legendary armor you’ll just have to do raids that’s what anet set the bar as.

That’s true for armor for now, but it will never be true for all legendary weapons. Even acquiring legendary armor won’t mean that players are particularly talented, however. Plenty of people get carried through raids just like any other instanced content.

If you think Raiding that involves wipes is “wasting time” you really are not interested in Raiding.

Yeah, but from what we currently know, whether you are interested in raiding or not is completely irrelevant. If raids really are the only way to progress towards things like Legendary Armor and the new Weapons, then people will have to participate in raiding whether they have any interest in it or not. You can’t have it both ways, either raids are only for people that want to raid, or raids are a source for rewards that can’t be earned anywhere else. If you force us to come into raiding in order to earn the rewards that we want, then we are going to reshape what raiding means to suit our tastes. If you don’t want us fitting raids into our own image, then don’t give us any reason to go in there.

Long story short, I would LOVE to not have to care what goes on inside raids, but the currently proposed systems do not allow me that option.

Ohoni.6057:

Yeah, but from what we currently know, whether you are interested in raiding or not is completely irrelevant. If raids really are the only way to progress towards things like Legendary Armor and the new Weapons, then people will have to participate in raiding whether they have any interest in it or not. You can’t have it both ways, either raids are only for people that want to raid, or raids are a source for rewards that can’t be earned anywhere else. If you force us to come into raiding in order to earn the rewards that we want, then we are going to reshape what raiding means to suit our tastes. If you don’t want us fitting raids into our own image, then don’t give us any reason to go in there.

Long story short, I would LOVE to not have to care what goes on inside raids, but the currently proposed systems do not allow me that option.

We have proven that there is no easier but alternative option. Go read the proof again. So if you are pushing for another option that will diminish the value of said Legendary Armor. You don’t get to have the cake and eat it too. You don’t get to have easy content and get the reward for not playing the proper content.

BaconofPigs.1683:

Ohoni.6057:

Yeah, but from what we currently know, whether you are interested in raiding or not is completely irrelevant. If raids really are the only way to progress towards things like Legendary Armor and the new Weapons, then people will have to participate in raiding whether they have any interest in it or not. You can’t have it both ways, either raids are only for people that want to raid, or raids are a source for rewards that can’t be earned anywhere else. If you force us to come into raiding in order to earn the rewards that we want, then we are going to reshape what raiding means to suit our tastes. If you don’t want us fitting raids into our own image, then don’t give us any reason to go in there.

Long story short, I would LOVE to not have to care what goes on inside raids, but the currently proposed systems do not allow me that option.

We have proven that there is no easier but alternative option. Go read the proof again. So if you are pushing for another option that will diminish the value of said Legendary Armor. You don’t get to have the cake and eat it too. You don’t get to have easy content and get the reward for not playing the proper content.

Then you’d better hope that the number of people happy with raids are are not dwarfed by the number of people who want the new carrot but cannot hack the content. What will Anet do if a big demographic is unhappy? Hint: a demographic being unhappy is why we have Asc., why we have raids, and why we’ve seen so many nerfs to content. Past performance is the best indicator of future performance.

We have proven that there is no easier but alternative option. Go read the proof again. So if you are pushing for another option that will diminish the value of said Legendary Armor. You don’t get to have the cake and eat it too. You don’t get to have easy content and get the reward for not playing the proper content.

Look, it’s one or the other Bacon, this time next year, either A. Legendary Precursors (and other important loot) will be available through means other than the Raids, OR B. Raids will be easy enough that anyone can do them with a fairly minimal amount of time.

One or the other will be true. That may not be ANet’s vision for them at the moment, but if so they will be compelled to change that vision, because the players will not accept “raids are not for you, and neither are their rewards” as an answer.

Ohoni.6057:

…because the players will not accept “raids are not for you, and neither are their rewards” as an answer.

15 years of industry experience disagrees.

The vast majority of customers are well conditioned to accept that certain rewards are gated by certain accomplishments. And the few that do object are fairly well pacified in this game by having the mechanical rewards almost trivially available.

You and I might prefer a variety of options in the pursuit of skins, but there is simply no dire threat to be offered that they are on the path to ruin.

Find a better lever, because I don’t see the Devs being budged an inch by what’s been put forward.

Ohoni.6057:

Look, it’s one or the other Bacon, this time next year, either A. Legendary Precursors (and other important loot) will be available through means other than the Raids, OR B. Raids will be easy enough that anyone can do them with a fairly minimal amount of time.

Neither will be true since it’s not the negation of each other. Sorry to disappoint you. Or have fun waiting a year I guess, don’t be disappointed at the time. But I’ll get my legendary armor about 2-3 months after launch.

I hope this is the correct vision for ArenaNet, which has been voiced by the majority of the posters here and if this is any indication albeit skewed may represent the majority of the in game population as well. As long as we are here we will let ArenaNet know what the majority want.

Cheers

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

“Earlier wing bosses can prob be killed by top tier players in mix of asc/ex. Last boss should be full asc.”

key words.

This just reads to me like you’ll be getting the equip you need to complete that last one after running the earlier ones enough, which is generally how raids work. If you needed a full set from the start, there would be no point.

phys.7689:

Windsagio.1340:

phys;

Coulter’s and My thesis is that the design limitation is, at best, exaggerated.

You seem to both believe it’s going to be a serious barrier and to be mad about it. It ends up feeling like borrowing offense.

Coulter doesnt seem to be responding to what i say but what he thinks i mean. Or what he believes my agenda is.

I have known many players who specifically avoided getting ascended because it drained the fun out of the game for them.

In the past at least i could tell them, well you only need it to repeat high end fractals.

This no longer applies.

The fact that its doable is less relevant than what is expected. Many players including those that do raids will first seek to maximize their mechanical advantage when confronted with challenge.

Problem is ascended aquisition is bad. It only functioned as a long term prestige dont worry about it goal. When you actually are expected to have it, it will be incredibly frustrating for a lot of players.

Like i said i knew many many players who hated ascended crafting, didnt want to join large premade guilds, and were annoyed by having to clock in for dailies or fall behind.

Well I already spent a long time telling you WHY Ascended Armour (the main cost of Ascended) is not going to influence outcomes. As for those people who “don’t like Ascended crafting and don’t join guilds” I can only say – Raids were deliberately design without those people in mind and quite right too.

Windsagio.1340:

It’s the first day of brand new content. If there were teams that were taking less than 5-6 tries on a 1 day old boss in a new game mode then the content is too easy.

Number of attempts until success is not an indicator of difficulty, it is a indicator of the group’s learning ability.

Coulter.2315:

phys.7689:

Windsagio.1340:

phys;

Coulter’s and My thesis is that the design limitation is, at best, exaggerated.

You seem to both believe it’s going to be a serious barrier and to be mad about it. It ends up feeling like borrowing offense.

Coulter doesnt seem to be responding to what i say but what he thinks i mean. Or what he believes my agenda is.

I have known many players who specifically avoided getting ascended because it drained the fun out of the game for them.

In the past at least i could tell them, well you only need it to repeat high end fractals.

This no longer applies.

The fact that its doable is less relevant than what is expected. Many players including those that do raids will first seek to maximize their mechanical advantage when confronted with challenge.

Problem is ascended aquisition is bad. It only functioned as a long term prestige dont worry about it goal. When you actually are expected to have it, it will be incredibly frustrating for a lot of players.

Like i said i knew many many players who hated ascended crafting, didnt want to join large premade guilds, and were annoyed by having to clock in for dailies or fall behind.

Well I already spent a long time telling you WHY Ascended Armour (the main cost of Ascended) is not going to influence outcomes. As for those people who “don’t like Ascended crafting and don’t join guilds” I can only say – Raids were deliberately design without those people in mind and quite right too.

raids had to be designed with ascended no matter what, the aquisition of ascended however was not designed with raids in mind.

Succesful raid based games always have a quick gear requirement to start raids, and have a raid progression that has short attainable goals people can work towards. Having a big time/effort gap before people can play a game mode they are interested in, at all, with no interesting goals a long the way is a recipe for failure.

Hopefully the designers have considered this more than you have, and they already have some more goal oriented ways of obtaining ascended with less time gates or repetitive grind.

Otherwise people will either quit or begin mass complaints about ascended aquisition/or player gear requirements for raids.

this is basically the future based on the current situations if they dont have a plan in place.
Its pretty easy to see how things will play out. Would you like to bet against me? im willing to bet gold if you are.

15 years of industry experience disagrees.

The vast majority of customers are well conditioned to accept that certain rewards are gated by certain accomplishments. And the few that do object are fairly well pacified in this game by having the mechanical rewards almost trivially available.

Yeah, welcome to GW2, we’ll see how well it flies here.

Of course it will fly well. This is what the majority want.

Ohoni.6057:

15 years of industry experience disagrees.

The vast majority of customers are well conditioned to accept that certain rewards are gated by certain accomplishments. And the few that do object are fairly well pacified in this game by having the mechanical rewards almost trivially available.

Yeah, welcome to GW2, we’ll see how well it flies here.

It has always been like this in GW2 yet for some reason players started to notice now that the Raids were added. The game had rewards locked behind content since release yet the complains about it were fairly limited, if any. Give me one example of someone complaining that AC skins were locked behind actually playing AC. None.

Or fractal skins locked behind fractals, that tribal armor skin locked behind pvp. Technically everything has been locked behind something since the beginning. Even the current legendaries are locked behind gold. When I couldn’t craft the legendaries I didn’t go to the forums to demand the devs make legendary prices lower. So why demand raids to suit your needs just because YOU can’t do it? It makes no sense. I Guess people only see what they wanna see and when they want to.

Ohoni.6057:

15 years of industry experience disagrees.

The vast majority of customers are well conditioned to accept that certain rewards are gated by certain accomplishments. And the few that do object are fairly well pacified in this game by having the mechanical rewards almost trivially available.

Yeah, welcome to GW2, we’ll see how well it flies here.

We know how well it flies here. Ascended was introduced as a direct reaction to their discovering people with max gear in all slots leave en mass. No one looking at the haphazard and uneven execution between rings, accessories and main-slot gear can even pretend Ascended tier wasn’t done in a rush. The happy fuzzy model they launched under kitten near killed them. I suspect they’ve since developed a survivalist’s appreciation for keeping your customers chasing the carrot.

I’d like there to be alternate methods of acquisition for the raid armor too, but to date I haven’t seen a realistic, actionable strategy put forward, and “well they should just do it” is an inadequate response to the cold reality that they did do it, and the model they’ve moved on doesn’t include it. For Players trying to influence Devs, fighting the status quo ALWAYS requires a higher level of finesse. We’ve got a combined 200+ pages on the topic and desperately little actual plan to talk about.

A philosophical stand is great and all, but this argument has become a caricature of itself. One serious proposal will do more than another 50 pages of intellectual Ping-Pong.

Nike.2631:

We’ve got a combined 200+ pages on the topic and desperately little actual plan to talk about.

200+ pages of going in circles discussing a hypothetical solution that caters to everyone while keeping the content from being “easy”. I’m sorry I can’t see such a solution as being possible. So I kindly requested from those who preach it for some accurate and as specific as possible examples, yet nobody seems to do so.
The most usual response is: “I’m not a dev, I’ll let the devs decide.” But the devs have already decided, so what’s the point of the discussion then?

maddoctor.2738:

200+ pages of going in circles discussing a hypothetical solution that caters to everyone while keeping the content from being “easy”. I’m sorry I can’t see such a solution as being possible. So I kindly requested from those who preach it for some accurate and as specific as possible examples, yet nobody seems to do so.
The most usual response is: “I’m not a dev, I’ll let the devs decide.” But the devs have already decided, so what’s the point of the discussion then?

I’m largely in the same camp. The philosophy has ben expounded on at length (ad nauseam really…). I’ve got a whole catalogue of occasions I’ve manage to make my desires manifest in this game and in my experience it takes a hell of a lot more definite path forward than “well, they oughta.”

I don’t think a solution is impossible, but I think its more work than the Devs are willing to throw at it at the moment so if no one else steps up to do that work, it ain’t getting done and no amount of stamping our foot will change that.

Of course it will fly well. This is what the majority want.

You have zero basis for that claim.

It has always been like this in GW2 yet for some reason players started to notice now that the Raids were added.

If people are reacting differently now, then it’s because there is something new about the current situation. Perhaps the rewards are more interesting to people than previous locked-up rewards. Perhaps raids are more odious to people than previous barring content. For whatever reason, people ARE more upset about this than previous content, and that shouldn’t just be hand-waved away as an interesting blip. I suppose you assume that the displeasure will die off without changing anything, I’m not convinced of that.

Give me one example of someone complaining that AC skins were locked behind actually playing AC. None.

I probably have a post in there somewhere, but you have to admit that the amount of skill and effort one has to put in to earning a full set of AC armor is far lower than what is likely to be the amount of skill and effort it will take to earn a full set of Raid armor, so it is perfectly reasonable, if not inevitable that people who would be fine with the former would take perfectly reasonable issue with the latter.

locked behind something since the beginning. Even the current legendaries are locked behind gold. When I couldn’t craft the legendaries I didn’t go to the forums to demand the devs make legendary prices lower. So why demand raids to suit your needs just because YOU can’t do it?

Because we’re different people and we choose to express ourselves differently? When you see something that you want but do not feel that it is worth the effort, you give up. When I see something that I want but it is not worth the effort, I push for the needed effort to be brought to a level I feel is more justified. They’re both valid approaches, I wish you well with yours.

Ascended was introduced as a direct reaction to their discovering people with max gear in all slots leave en mass.

And yet most of those “1%er” players who would leave “en mass” over something like that probably completed their Ascended weapons and armor sets almost two years ago, so if they’re still playing today, it’s not chasing Ascended armor that kept them there.

The happy fuzzy model they launched under kitten near killed them. I suspect they’ve since developed a survivalist’s appreciation for keeping your customers chasing the carrot.

This is a myth shouted all over the Internet by people who enjoy the things that GW2 never was before, like raiding. There’s this myth that there was some huge number of people who came to GW2 in hopes of some raiding WoW-endgaming sort of experience, didn’t find it, and took off for the hills, leaving the game crippled in their wake. This is, of course, nonsense. Sure, some people left, and these people were VERY noisy about their leaving, because they were highly engaged players with raiding guilds, social media presence, etc., shouting to the rafters about how GW2 had failed their expectations, but the game kept right on swimming without them. GW2 apparently posted its highest concurrency numbers well after this “exodus” of players. The people that keep GW2 running have nothing whatsoever to do with these players.

The most usual response is: “I’m not a dev, I’ll let the devs decide.” But the devs have already decided, so what’s the point of the discussion then?

The devs decided on a course of action. I’m letting them know that I don’t agree with that course, and want a new course. I don’t currently have enough data to know exactly what that course should be, just that it shouldn’t be the current one. As we learn more about what is in HoT, I would be able to make a more concrete course, but in the meantime the devs can be working on an alternate course of their own. I’m asking them to make a new decision based on the new data that their current plan (as expressed to us, at least) is not good enough.

Ohoni.6057:

If people are reacting differently now, then it’s because there is something new about the current situation.

Not much has changed. Just some new skins behind newer content as it’s always been. The only difference is the word “raid”.

I probably have a post in there somewhere, but you have to admit that the amount of skill and effort one has to put in to earning a full set of AC armor is far lower than what is likely to be the amount of skill and effort it will take to earn a full set of Raid armor, so it is perfectly reasonable, if not inevitable that people who would be fine with the former would take perfectly reasonable issue with the latter.

I’ll remind you that at release AC (even story mode) was considered as hard as MMORPG raids. Yet there was no “please give me AC armor” comments. Not to mention Exotic was the highest quality “end-game” yet there was no uproar.

I don’t currently have enough data to know exactly what that course should be, just that it shouldn’t be the current one.

Yet you provide no arguments on why they shouldn’t use the current one. And if you have no data about the current one how are you opposed to it?

BaconofPigs.1683:

Of course it will fly well. This is what the majority want.

On the contrary, majority definitely didn’t ask for this and is not going to participate. By design, i might add (because raiders would not consider a content that majority plays to be challenging enough).

Astralporing.1957:

BaconofPigs.1683:

Of course it will fly well. This is what the majority want.

On the contrary, majority definitely didn’t ask for this and is not going to participate. By design, i might add (because raiders would not consider a content that majority plays to be challenging enough).

Just to clarify, isn’t the topic the requirement of Ascended gear in Raids? What is the majority not going to participate in?

Astralporing.1957:

BaconofPigs.1683:

Of course it will fly well. This is what the majority want.

On the contrary, majority definitely didn’t ask for this and is not going to participate. By design, i might add (because raiders would not consider a content that majority plays to be challenging enough).

I don’t know. I can’t speak for the majority, but raid is a huge hype in my guild and we are not a dungeon or hardcore anything. A lot of casual players in my guild are asking for guidance to get ascended weapons. It seem to give a clear goal to a lot of people. In the last beta we were thinking to creating a third raid squad when the squad UI was shutdown. The majority of my guild seem to want it. Can’t talk for the rest of the community, but in my guild there is only 3-4 players that speak loud about this ascended thing in raid and 3 of them already have ascended armours.

Can I ask why “the majority” one way or the other remotely matters?

It’s not a vote. Not even with wallets for the most part because of sunk cost behavior at the core of MMOs. The number of people who have a preference is going to be much, much larger than the number of people outraged enough to quit.

Could we maybe skip the appeal to the masses when A) no one actually has data and B) ANet will act in ANet’s best interest to the best of their understanding regardless?

Its not like ascended is that hard to get… Without farming anything I had enough bloodstone, dragonite, and fragments for a full set after just playing the game. People need to calm down. If there was content that required legendary gear I would understand, but its just ascended. You can always mix/match ascended and exotic too.

InsidiousWaffle.7086:

Its not like ascended is that hard to get… Without farming anything I had enough bloodstone, dragonite, and fragments for a full set after just playing the game. People need to calm down. If there was content that required legendary gear I would understand, but its just ascended. You can always mix/match ascended and exotic too.

your perspective is based on what you were able to do by accident after many months of playing.
Ascended is ok as a long term goal you arent directly aiming for, that is how its aquisition was designed, except for fractals.
But that has changed. Now people need it in the short term to participate with their friends/groups/new shiny content.

note that you could do fractals with zero ascended, and as you got better, and repeated content you got more of what you needed to progress.

point is, dont think of how you accidently got ascended over the last 8 months, think about what you would have to do if you needed a new set in order to play with your friends, with no built up resources.
New players, returning players, people who ignored ascended are all in that boat now.

Is it cool to sit out of your friends new exciting adventures for a month, because you would hold em back?

phys.7689:

InsidiousWaffle.7086:

Its not like ascended is that hard to get… Without farming anything I had enough bloodstone, dragonite, and fragments for a full set after just playing the game. People need to calm down. If there was content that required legendary gear I would understand, but its just ascended. You can always mix/match ascended and exotic too.

your perspective is based on what you were able to do by accident after many months of playing.
Ascended is ok as a long term goal you arent directly aiming for, that is how its aquisition was designed, except for fractals.
But that has changed. Now people need it in the short term to participate with their friends/groups/new shiny content.

note that you could do fractals with zero ascended, and as you got better, and repeated content you got more of what you needed to progress.

point is, dont think of how you accidently got ascended over the last 8 months, think about what you would have to do if you needed a new set in order to play with your friends, with no built up resources.
New players, returning players, people who ignored ascended are all in that boat now.

Is it cool to sit out of your friends new exciting adventures for a month, because you would hold em back?

Bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbut you can do all the new shiny content in exotics, unless you wanna do fractal 100 immediately which I find kind of weird. Exotic plus 2 food is better than ascended with no food. So if you don’t eat food on a usual basis before doing content you probably won’t notice the diff between ascended and exotics.

phys.7689:

InsidiousWaffle.7086:

Its not like ascended is that hard to get… Without farming anything I had enough bloodstone, dragonite, and fragments for a full set after just playing the game. People need to calm down. If there was content that required legendary gear I would understand, but its just ascended. You can always mix/match ascended and exotic too.

your perspective is based on what you were able to do by accident after many months of playing.
Ascended is ok as a long term goal you arent directly aiming for, that is how its aquisition was designed, except for fractals.
But that has changed. Now people need it in the short term to participate with their friends/groups/new shiny content.

note that you could do fractals with zero ascended, and as you got better, and repeated content you got more of what you needed to progress.

point is, dont think of how you accidently got ascended over the last 8 months, think about what you would have to do if you needed a new set in order to play with your friends, with no built up resources.
New players, returning players, people who ignored ascended are all in that boat now.

Is it cool to sit out of your friends new exciting adventures for a month, because you would hold em back?

If you would be noticably holding them back its not going to be because of gear, do your friends really not trust you over a pug with Ascended? Also if you had played with your friends who did Fractals over the last 2 years you wouldn’t be in this situation. Or if you just played over the last 3 years you would be reasonably comaprable to Ascended.

Stop making up problems that don’t exist.

Astralporing.1957:

BaconofPigs.1683:

Of course it will fly well. This is what the majority want.

On the contrary, majority definitely didn’t ask for this and is not going to participate. By design, i might add (because raiders would not consider a content that majority plays to be challenging enough).

Sorry to break the news to you but not only the majority but rather the vast majority of the players asked for this. Here is the vid of the HoT announcement. Watch it again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxLkfXwxLTs . When the challenging content was anounced, the entire room was excited. If we take the sample size to be these people. (Their main interest is in the game not in raid, hence this sample is as good as random). Since everyone there approve raiding as seen in the video. We say 100% of those people (a lot of whom aren’t “raiders”) approve raids. Sure, the sample size is small so the margin of error has to be taken into account. It is usually 1/sqrt(n) where n is the sample size. Assuming that room is filled with less than 200 people (actually it could be well over 300) but let’s underestimate anyway, 1/sqrt(200) is approximately 7%, which means 93% of the population approve of raid. Saying majority like raids is a underestimate. It’s more like overwhelming vast majority of people like raiding. If any other evidence here shown, only less than 10 forum posters out of thousands disapprove of raids. Sure you can say not all are vocal but the vast majority of the raiders are also not vocal.

“Challenging Content” can mean very many things.

Also there’s some severe sample bias in a gamescon convention room.

Windsagio.1340:

“Challenging Content” can mean very many things.

Also there’s some severe sample bias in a gamescon convention room.

The bias only takes into account if you measure whether the people are interested in the game or they are not interested in the game. Of course you would only take the samples of those who are interested in the game, which everyone there should be. Now it may or may not be the case everyone there were interested in raiding. The dev didn’t say: “If you are interested in raiding, come to this convention”, did they? So the bias is hardly on whether raiding is or is not in HoT.

Coulter.2315:

phys.7689:

InsidiousWaffle.7086:

Its not like ascended is that hard to get… Without farming anything I had enough bloodstone, dragonite, and fragments for a full set after just playing the game. People need to calm down. If there was content that required legendary gear I would understand, but its just ascended. You can always mix/match ascended and exotic too.

your perspective is based on what you were able to do by accident after many months of playing.
Ascended is ok as a long term goal you arent directly aiming for, that is how its aquisition was designed, except for fractals.
But that has changed. Now people need it in the short term to participate with their friends/groups/new shiny content.

note that you could do fractals with zero ascended, and as you got better, and repeated content you got more of what you needed to progress.

point is, dont think of how you accidently got ascended over the last 8 months, think about what you would have to do if you needed a new set in order to play with your friends, with no built up resources.
New players, returning players, people who ignored ascended are all in that boat now.

Is it cool to sit out of your friends new exciting adventures for a month, because you would hold em back?

If you would be noticably holding them back its not going to be because of gear, do your friends really not trust you over a pug with Ascended? Also if you had played with your friends who did Fractals over the last 2 years you wouldn’t be in this situation. Or if you just played over the last 3 years you would be reasonably comaprable to Ascended.

Stop making up problems that don’t exist.

do you really think everyone who they want to play this game has already been playing the game for years?
part of the reason they release and expansion is to get RETURNING PLAYERS and remarket to NEW PLAYERS and the player base specifically told many players DONT GET ASCENDED IF YOU DONT WANT TO DO FRACTALS.

you keep on myopically looking at everything from your own perspective as a guy who has been playing some what consistently for a long time, that is not everyone who they hope to market this to.

They want new players who like raids
they want old players to come back to try raids
they want people who havent tried stuff before to try it now

ascended aquisition is a large impediment to that.

And your assumption that people like to be the kitten guy in the difficult content is false. i have known many friends who quit doing something until they get the gear or level up, if they feel they are holding people back. You can tell them nah dont worry about it, but they dont feel comfortable being the gimpy guy.

lets make something clear, you will ALWAYS be more useful to your team in better gear.

Also, many of these guys arent just competing with pugs, they are competing with GUILDIES, there may be 20 other guys who want to do it, why should they put you in the group when you dont have the gear?

for real, start looking at things how they are, rather than perfect scenarios. Good design considers all the ways a system interacts with its users.

This is not about being for or against anet, this about objectively looking how the systems interact with each other and with players.

go tell your friend oh, you should have been playing the last 2 years when they are sitting out. Real ace move

Not much has changed. Just some new skins behind newer content as it’s always been. The only difference is the word “raid”.

Perhaps that’s true, but even if it were, that alone is enough to cause a significantly higher amount of genuine outrage, so even that one word has power.

I’ll remind you that at release AC (even story mode) was considered as hard as MMORPG raids. Yet there was no “please give me AC armor” comments. Not to mention Exotic was the highest quality “end-game” yet there was no uproar.

Because again, by the time most people got that far, both were fairly trivial to accomplish. I don’t object to Ascended armor because they are “endgame armor,” I object to them in their current state because they are far too expensive to produce for them to be considered something that most players are expect ed to own.

Without farming anything I had enough bloodstone, dragonite, and fragments for a full set after just playing the game.

That is not the primary cost of Ascended gear. At one point I had enough of each of those to craft a thousand pieces of Ascended gear.

Sorry to break the news to you but not only the majority but rather the vast majority of the players asked for this. Here is the vid of the HoT announcement. Watch it again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxLkfXwxLTs . When the challenging content was anounced, the entire room was excited.

I hate to break it to you, but the contents of that room do not represent the “majority of players,” those were people that went to attend a panel at a gaming convention. That is no more a representative sampling than a political party convention floor is a representative sampling of the general members of that party. It’s also worth noting that crowd reaction is a very difficult thing to judge, you have no idea even what percentage of that crowd actually approved of those comments, just that the ones who did approve were quite noisy.

Assuming that room is filled with less than 200 people (actually it could be well over 300) but let’s underestimate anyway, 1/sqrt(200) is approximately 7%, which means 93% of the population approve of raid. Saying majority like raids is a underestimate. It’s more like overwhelming vast majority of people like raiding

I hope to god that you don’t have a job that involves statistics.

phys.7689:

Coulter.2315:

phys.7689:

InsidiousWaffle.7086:

Its not like ascended is that hard to get… Without farming anything I had enough bloodstone, dragonite, and fragments for a full set after just playing the game. People need to calm down. If there was content that required legendary gear I would understand, but its just ascended. You can always mix/match ascended and exotic too.

your perspective is based on what you were able to do by accident after many months of playing.
Ascended is ok as a long term goal you arent directly aiming for, that is how its aquisition was designed, except for fractals.
But that has changed. Now people need it in the short term to participate with their friends/groups/new shiny content.

note that you could do fractals with zero ascended, and as you got better, and repeated content you got more of what you needed to progress.

point is, dont think of how you accidently got ascended over the last 8 months, think about what you would have to do if you needed a new set in order to play with your friends, with no built up resources.
New players, returning players, people who ignored ascended are all in that boat now.

Is it cool to sit out of your friends new exciting adventures for a month, because you would hold em back?

If you would be noticably holding them back its not going to be because of gear, do your friends really not trust you over a pug with Ascended? Also if you had played with your friends who did Fractals over the last 2 years you wouldn’t be in this situation. Or if you just played over the last 3 years you would be reasonably comaprable to Ascended.

Stop making up problems that don’t exist.

do you really think everyone who they want to play this game has already been playing the game for years?
part of the reason they release and expansion is to get RETURNING PLAYERS and remarket to NEW PLAYERS and the player base specifically told many players DONT GET ASCENDED IF YOU DONT WANT TO DO FRACTALS.

you keep on myopically looking at everything from your own perspective as a guy who has been playing some what consistently for a long time, that is not everyone who they hope to market this to.

They want new players who like raids
they want old players to come back to try raids
they want people who havent tried stuff before to try it now

ascended aquisition is a large impediment to that.

And your assumption that people like to be the kitten guy in the difficult content is false. i have known many friends who quit doing something until they get the gear or level up, if they feel they are holding people back. You can tell them nah dont worry about it, but they dont feel comfortable being the gimpy guy.

lets make something clear, you will ALWAYS be more useful to your team in better gear.

Also, many of these guys arent just competing with pugs, they are competing with GUILDIES, there may be 20 other guys who want to do it, why should they put you in the group when you dont have the gear?

for real, start looking at things how they are, rather than perfect scenarios. Good design considers all the ways a system interacts with its users.

This is not about being for or against anet, this about objectively looking how the systems interact with each other and with players.

go tell your friend oh, you should have been playing the last 2 years when they are sitting out. Real ace move

You say I speak for myself but then choose to speak for Anet…

They made Raids for people that like Raids – they made endgame PvE not ‘just hit 80 stuff’ and they made it deliberately.

I was in a few Raid guilds in WoW, we were server 1st-3rd for 10man throughout Uld, ToC, ICC and all of Cata we NEVER asked a friend to sit out because of gear because we knew it was the skill of the player that mattered the most and we knew they would put the effort in to catch up (be that switching to an alt or coming back after a break). So don’t tell me about asking friends sit out… We had great success and did it with all our friends. You just don’t understand what Raids are or the people who like them – which is fine but don’t try and warp things based around YOUR insufficient experience and drive to Raid.