Guild Wars 2

cletiscake.9173:

This situation is very similar to the original World Boss farming that was happening close to launch. People were guesting on other servers so they could loot more per character/account or whatever. No one got banned for doing that. Anet simply changed the parameters, made it account bound + daily, and all was good in the world. I foresee a similar outcome to the current AB farm.

None of us that are saying it is an exploit are saying that players should be banned for it. But you can’t deny it is an exploit based on the definition of an exploit.

I personally don’t think anyone should be punished for multilooting. Players don’t go into each meta with stacks upon stacks of keys and there aren’t a huge number of maps for players to go into and there’s the timers to contend to. It’s self-limiting with a fairly low limit.

Seera.5916:

None of us that are saying it is an exploit are saying that players should be banned for it. But you can’t deny it is an exploit based on the definition of an exploit.

That depends on whether this is in fact an unintended/unanticipated method of gaining loot, which until someone from behind the scenes comments on, we can only speculate about.

My own feeling is that if it introduces more money to the economy, it also introduces more sinks. I’m not convinced it introduces significantly more money. Do the AB chests even give any coin loot? If so, limiting or removing that might be the only change needed.

Otherwise, the only effect this can have is to increase the frequency of certain items (be they raw materials from salvaging or rare loot) which will drive the high-end prices down and in turn drive total number of purchases of those items up. Items can only increase the amount of total gold in the economy if they are sold to an npc, so the only way this can inject money into the economy is if it pushes prices of both items and materials so low that a significantly larger portion are sold to a vendor instead of being listed for trade. I doubt this is likely to cause that.

Given that anet has, to my knowledge, never removed a mechanic by which gold is siphoned out of the economy, i can’t see them doing anything about this one.

Narrrz.7532:

Seera.5916:

None of us that are saying it is an exploit are saying that players should be banned for it. But you can’t deny it is an exploit based on the definition of an exploit.

That depends on whether this is in fact an unintended/unanticipated method of gaining loot, which until someone from behind the scenes comments on, we can only speculate about.

My own feeling is that if it introduces more money to the economy, it also introduces more sinks. I’m not convinced it introduces significantly more money. Do the AB chests even give any coin loot? If so, limiting or removing that might be the only change needed.

Otherwise, the only effect this can have is to increase the frequency of certain items (be they raw materials from salvaging or rare loot) which will drive the high-end prices down and in turn drive total number of purchases of those items up. Items can only increase the amount of total gold in the economy if they are sold to an npc, so the only way this can inject money into the economy is if it pushes prices of both items and materials so low that a significantly larger portion are sold to a vendor instead of being listed for trade. I doubt this is likely to cause that.

Given that anet has, to my knowledge, never removed a mechanic by which gold is siphoned out of the economy, i can’t see them doing anything about this one.

They removed two that I know of, although both were fairly minor. The cost of armor repairs and the need to buy trait books from trainers.

Edit: and there is a third from a guild bonus that decreases waypoint costs by up to 15%.

that’s true, i had forgotten about those.

As far as the trait books go, there was that major restructure to the traits – maybe they could not think of a way to include a cost with it, maybe they just didn’t want to.

I can imagine the removal of armor repair costs as simply a way of encouraging people to play less cautiously. People were probably more willing to bail on a dungeon run after the first wipe when it meant they’d actually be spending money on the run.
Also, didn’t waypointing within dungeons used to cost gold as well? So it was a bit of a one-two punch: not only do you have to spend money to rez, you then have to spend more money to repair.

Given that anet has, to my knowledge, never removed a mechanic by which gold is siphoned out of the economy, i can’t see them doing anything about this one.[/quote]

We must not be playing the same game. Anet has destroyed each and every little money making scheme, going back to the days of GW1. Maybe not immediately, but usually with their usual sledgehammer touch that forced people to find the next ‘farm spot’.

Off the top of my head: from GW1 the big ones i can remember were : UW ecto farming and dust mite farming (this one is right along the lines as the same profit as AB farming now).

From GW2: Queens dale farm train. Low-level champ trains. Then the nerf to champ bags (and badges) from EotM. Then lets not forget the biggie: the utter devastation of Dungeon farming.

No, Anet’s mission is to destroy farming that occurs on the scale AB is now (and growing). It’s only a matter of time. If I had to guess, they do not have a clue how to address it yet, which is why we have not heard anything. The fact we have not heard ANYTHING, even from Gail, indicates that this is something they are looking into fixing and don’t want to rile up the playerbase beforehand. (eg. announcing it will get patched will result in many many players “power-farming” AB before the patch and causing even more economical issues). But they will sneak it into a patch eventually (summer patch maybe?) and in typical Anet fashion, will obliterate it to a point where people will find a new farm spot and AB will become a proverbial ghost town again.

Narrrz.7532:

My own feeling is that if it introduces more money to the economy, it also introduces more sinks. I’m not convinced it introduces significantly more money. Do the AB chests even give any coin loot? If so, limiting or removing that might be the only change needed.

Otherwise, the only effect this can have is to increase the frequency of certain items (be they raw materials from salvaging or rare loot) which will drive the high-end prices down and in turn drive total number of purchases of those items up. Items can only increase the amount of total gold in the economy if they are sold to an npc, so the only way this can inject money into the economy is if it pushes prices of both items and materials so low that a significantly larger portion are sold to a vendor instead of being listed for trade. I doubt this is likely to cause that.

Given that anet has, to my knowledge, never removed a mechanic by which gold is siphoned out of the economy, i can’t see them doing anything about this one.

AB chests do not drop any raw gold. The only way it introduces gold is if someone vendors stuff, which as you said does not happen often.

However, we have passed the point where the ecto generated should be considered a gold sink via the TP, as supply has surpassed demand. The only thing the AB farm is doing now is axing prices, which reduces the amount of gold being removed from TP tax. At the same time, this makes gold more valuable, so people might be encouraged to convert gems to gold… Hard to say what ANET will do next. Perhaps they will just let multimap run its course – eventually the falling prices will cut profit margins. I used to make ~20g / run. Now I only make about 10g / run, despite having improved my running technique to hit more chests than I could earlier.

That ol noob.7083:

AB chests do not drop any raw gold. The only way it introduces gold is if someone vendors stuff, which as you said does not happen often.

They are guilty by association. The myriad of bags you get out of the chests do often drop a couple silver each.

And, I vendor a ton of stuff when I loot after Octovine… most notably trophies (that come out of bags) and the many minor sigils/runes I get from salvage. Vendor trash contributes a lot more to new gold than many people seem to think.

~EW

Narrrz.7532:

Seera.5916:

None of us that are saying it is an exploit are saying that players should be banned for it. But you can’t deny it is an exploit based on the definition of an exploit.

That depends on whether this is in fact an unintended/unanticipated method of gaining loot, which until someone from behind the scenes comments on, we can only speculate about.

My own feeling is that if it introduces more money to the economy, it also introduces more sinks. I’m not convinced it introduces significantly more money. Do the AB chests even give any coin loot? If so, limiting or removing that might be the only change needed.

Otherwise, the only effect this can have is to increase the frequency of certain items (be they raw materials from salvaging or rare loot) which will drive the high-end prices down and in turn drive total number of purchases of those items up. Items can only increase the amount of total gold in the economy if they are sold to an npc, so the only way this can inject money into the economy is if it pushes prices of both items and materials so low that a significantly larger portion are sold to a vendor instead of being listed for trade. I doubt this is likely to cause that.

Given that anet has, to my knowledge, never removed a mechanic by which gold is siphoned out of the economy, i can’t see them doing anything about this one.

Based on similar things, it is unintended. World bosses in Tyria are limited to once per day for the guaranteed rare. Fractals, dungeons, and raids are limited.

Anet, you already have the tool to fix this. Please implement the DS mechanic that prevents players from joining a map with completed meta, for Auric Basin.

zaced.7948:

PopeUrban.2578:

zaced.7948:

PopeUrban.2578:

Its fine. Your ability to loot chests is primarily controlled by your ability to acquire keys, not your access to the chests. No amount of alts or taxis will allow you to farm up those keys any faster. Switching map instances only allows you to use them up faster, requiring you to spend an increased amount of time getting more.

In fact, the player that does not multiloot ends up with a virtually identical loot payout compared to time spent playing content in auric basin in the long term.

you can buy keys for aurillum. this applies to players who don’t need it anymore for collection stuff or people who don’t care about collection stuff and simply go for the monetary value.

It still does nothing to change the fact that a player with infinite alts can not acquire keys any faster than a single player. An equal amount of time must be spent acquiring keys, or aurillium for keys.

This isn’t like the old alt exploit with boss chests, where all it took was logging in more alts to loot the chests.

With the tarir chests, the faster you loot chests, the faster you run out of keys (or aurillium to buy keys) and you must spent an equivalent amount of time no matter how many alts you run through to loot chests.

The point stands. The only thing using alts or taxis to loot the chests does is use up keys faster. It doesn’t actually have any influence on time spent earning loot versus the loot’s payout.

you seem to not understand what multiloot is for. it’s not for opening more chests but opening the same amount of chests with higher quality. you could use all your 25 keys on low quality chests or you could use them on grand ones.
in the end you got better/more loot when multilooting than without.
not that i care tho. it’s too much work for me but i don’t mind others doing it.

Again, this changes nothing.

You have some choices when it comes to applying keys. If you want a greater loot volume in a shorter amount of time, you open all the chests. if you want higher quality per box, but less overall boxes opened (and thus keys used) then you only open the biggest chests.

These are true whether you do the zone hop or not. The overall opportunity cost per key used remains unchanged. The only thing that changes is how fast you use up your keys. You can spend 6-10 keys on big chests, even zone hopping, and get less loot with some mroe guarantees of quality. Alternately you can spend as many as 60 keys zone hopping and get a much larger pool of loot with less guarnatee of loot quality.

However, the time spent acquiring keys remains constant. Someone zone hopping to open 10 big chests is not gaining any more utility per time spent earning rewards (playing in AB to earn keys/currency for keys) than someone who is not. You could easily bank your keys and open one map of big chests, and simply return after the next phase. Your reward versus time spent earning it are exactly the same.

Opening the basement is not the primary reward for AB. Spending keys IN that basement is. The idea that it is somehow unfair is predicated on the false assumption that chests are rewarded for clearing the meta boss event. They are not. They are simply unlocked by doing so.

Its the same lock and key system used in nightfall to access the primeval armor vendor. You’re simply doing a task to visit a “merchant” Only in this case the “merchant” looks like a box, and accepts keys as currency.

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

That ol noob.7083:

AB chests do not drop any raw gold. The only way it introduces gold is if someone vendors stuff, which as you said does not happen often.

They are guilty by association. The myriad of bags you get out of the chests do often drop a couple silver each.

And, I vendor a ton of stuff when I loot after Octovine… most notably trophies (that come out of bags) and the many minor sigils/runes I get from salvage. Vendor trash contributes a lot more to new gold than many people seem to think.

~EW

Ah. Forgot about the bags, and I don’t get too many minors due to forging greens. I still believe that the amount of raw gold removed from TP tax more than makes up for the small amount of raw gold earned from the event.

That ol noob.7083:

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

That ol noob.7083:

AB chests do not drop any raw gold. The only way it introduces gold is if someone vendors stuff, which as you said does not happen often.

They are guilty by association. The myriad of bags you get out of the chests do often drop a couple silver each.

And, I vendor a ton of stuff when I loot after Octovine… most notably trophies (that come out of bags) and the many minor sigils/runes I get from salvage. Vendor trash contributes a lot more to new gold than many people seem to think.

~EW

Ah. Forgot about the bags, and I don’t get too many minors due to forging greens. I still believe that the amount of raw gold removed from TP tax more than makes up for the small amount of raw gold earned from the event.

That and if they weren’t getting loot to vendor or coins directly from this event, they’d be getting it from another event or for doing something else somewhere else.

Not that I care either way if people farm it all day or not at all. We have people saying it’s not that big a deal since you first have to farm the keys. Then others say, well it really doesn’t generate gold.

imo these are only half truths. One is it’s extremely easy to get more than an ample supply of keys with minimal farming. Providing the player knows what/how.

The other is generating gold. Bottom line, it’s generating gold for someone that’s for sure. To say it doesn’t put any gold in the game is nonsense.
If it wasn’t so dang profitable then why are there 100’s and 100’s of people doing it every other hour. If it wasn’t making someone gold then that someone certainly wouldn’t be doing it. To say vendoring is minimal at best in adding gold into the economy is silly as well. When people are vendoring by the 10’s of thousands a day it all adds up.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Let me be clear: I have no objection to people engaging in AB multi-looting — it’s extremely clever use of the game. It impacts the economy.

Again bunch of nonsense…What affects economy is some players using 3rd party programs, to access trading post listings outside game and see the full list of TP posted items on sale. Inside the game there is limitation when you open a list for a specific item to 35-36 listed only. Anything what gets after 36-37 listed the first item on list get behind its gone you cannot see it,and some players are abusing that feature. They post example 5-6 times 1 item or hide it with 2 or some other ammount or more on tp LOWERING item price down with their friends to get it convenient low price what its affordable for them. If they looking to buy and flip items on TP to double their gold.

Putting Example picture.

So many other things affecting Game Economy and some guys come here Blame something what has NOTHING to do with Trading Post.Not to mention its not even an exploit everything works normal and even features.

Like i said before people have some issues that situation looks like a easy thing to do with less effort ( again persons perception ) while Tarir is in terms of gold farm is at the middle range.There far more better and higher gold rewarding farm methods and places to do then waiting on a 2 hour event.And that needs actual game play time to sit down and actual do it few hours.

The posts here served enough to see what people are thinking what their problem is and so much of their view perception. So sorry to see that they have this big of a grudge towards casuals. Cause they wasted a loot of time on their leg and they want now Tarir nerfed so Casuals should not get items their wanted.

william dj.6953:

Not that I care either way if people farm it all day or not at all. We have people saying it’s not that big a deal since you first have to farm the keys. Then others say, well it really doesn’t generate gold.

imo these are only half truths. One is it’s extremely easy to get more than an ample supply of keys with minimal farming. Providing the player knows what/how.

The other is generating gold. Bottom line, it’s generating gold for someone that’s for sure. To say it doesn’t put any gold in the game is nonsense.
If it wasn’t so dang profitable then why are there 100’s and 100’s of people doing it every other hour. If it wasn’t making someone gold then that someone certainly wouldn’t be doing it. To say vendoring is minimal at best in adding gold into the economy is silly as well. When people are vendoring by the 10’s of thousands a day it all adds up.

But if they weren’t farming this map’s meta, they’d be farming other events generating items to vendor. The net gold generated likely isn’t statistically different than other events.

But players can’t have stacks upon stacks of keys and there are only so many maps open to use those keys. And the meta only happens on a set timer.

No one is saying that there is no impact on the game. Just that the impact isn’t that huge or worth banning people over.

Over a month of AB looting has proved in fact that AB multi map does not affect the economy nor does it break the game and neither is the ability to map hop a glitch. Seriously there is nothing negative about AB looting, IT IS LITERALLY THE SAME AS SILVERWASTE in terms of how it affects the economy. So all the people qq-ing about how AB is breaking the economy look again. Look at how the prices of items ingame has rised and dropped over the last month and you can see that AB is actually stabalizing the tp by generating needed mats such as ectos, the jeweled needed for HoT legendary AND it is providing tons of mithril, elder, and mats in general thus keeping the price nearly the same as it used to be a year ago. Look back on 4 months ago before AB was buffed, EVERYTHING was 2x more expensive than they are now. Legendary was at 4-5k average, and mithril/elder, t3 mat price was popping through the roof. You people might want to observe the economy before throwing random statements around like AB is breaking the economy.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Let me be clear: I have no objection to people engaging in AB multi-looting — it’s extremely clever use of the game. It impacts the economy.

Sismis.5390:

Again bunch of nonsense…

The data doesn’t back up your claim that it’s nonsense. Since multiloot started, ectos are down substantially in price. That’s a huge impact. Is it a harmful impact? If you read the rest of my post, you’d see my opinion that it is not harmful to the community…or not enough that ANet needs to act urgently to change things.

There are lots of reasons why ANet should revisit the mechanic and reasons why ANet should (or should not) change things. It hurts the case of “don’t change” side to pretend that there’s been no impact just as it hurts the case of the “change now” side to claim that there is so much harm from the impact that ANet must act.

tl;dr less hyperbole, please.

Asa.3602:

Over a month of AB looting has proved in fact that AB multi map does not affect the economy nor does it break the game and neither is the ability to map hop a glitch. Seriously there is nothing negative about AB looting, IT IS LITERALLY THE SAME AS SILVERWASTE in terms of how it affects the economy. So all the people qq-ing about how AB is breaking the economy look again. Look at how the prices of items ingame has rised and dropped over the last month and you can see that AB is actually stabalizing the tp by generating needed mats such as ectos, the jeweled needed for HoT legendary AND it is providing tons of mithril, elder, and mats in general thus keeping the price nearly the same as it used to be a year ago. Look back on 4 months ago before AB was buffed, EVERYTHING was 2x more expensive than they are now. Legendary was at 4-5k average, and mithril/elder, t3 mat price was popping through the roof. You people might want to observe the economy before throwing random statements around like AB is breaking the economy.

THX Asa finally somebody that actual knows whats up here and points that out.

Tarir has no impact good Sir Illconceived Was Na..All i can see you one of those emotional s who kinda have a problem with it.For your info in June before anybody started doing Tarir to farm ectos ( price on Ectos was drooped at some point low) where supply was LOW compared to demand ) and even before that.What had no relation to Tarir! Prices on TP are affected by players who Manipulate it and not the other way around.

https://www.gw2tp.com/item/19721-glob-of-ectoplasm?full=1

Now why do you not say it open why you got an issue eh?Where you kicked out of every multi-loot?Cause all i can see is that people who either work for gold sellers or have something to do with it are buzzing here asking for nerf or some other issue at hand.

Its Proved that TP market is currently stabilizing more then what doom preaching players here are claiming.

Can’t wait to see what more excuses players will come up here trying to force their view of things on others.

william dj.6953:

imo these are only half truths. One is it’s extremely easy to get more than an ample supply of keys with minimal farming. Providing the player knows what/how.

I can’t work out whether people are being dishonest about, or genuinely don’t understand, this point. I haven’t touched a pylon in months, why do people keep talking about needing to do pylons, ‘working’ for your keys, lol. Turn up when Challenges start, tag a few of the pre-events, do the meta, and you’ll end up with more currency than you started with even if you open 60 chests.

I found it highly humorous someone saying something to the effect of ’it’s not as bad as if people were opening several Teq chests on different maps’…. it’s basically exactly like that…. except Teq requires less effort and wouldn’t be quite as rewarding to your average player with say 10 or less characters (those chests only have a 5 min timer, I think? assuming for a moment they were lootable on alts).

Asa.3602:

Over a month of AB looting has proved in fact that AB multi map does not affect the economy nor does it break the game and neither is the ability to map hop a glitch. Seriously there is nothing negative about AB looting, IT IS LITERALLY THE SAME AS SILVERWASTE in terms of how it affects the economy. So all the people qq-ing about how AB is breaking the economy look again. Look at how the prices of items ingame has rised and dropped over the last month and you can see that AB is actually stabalizing the tp by generating needed mats such as ectos, the jeweled needed for HoT legendary AND it is providing tons of mithril, elder, and mats in general thus keeping the price nearly the same as it used to be a year ago. Look back on 4 months ago before AB was buffed, EVERYTHING was 2x more expensive than they are now. Legendary was at 4-5k average, and mithril/elder, t3 mat price was popping through the roof. You people might want to observe the economy before throwing random statements around like AB is breaking the economy.

The game is much, much, MUCH bigger than the AB multi farm. There are many other contributing factors to the economy besides this farm. Re a few months ago, correlation is cool and all but there is just so much more to the economy than this farm.

The post above mine… I’m not going to touch that one.

Sismis.5390:

Tarir has no impact good Sir Illconceived Was Na..All i can see you one of those emotional s who kinda have a problem with it.For your info in June before anybody started doing Tarir to farm ectos ( price on Ectos was drooped at some point low) where supply was LOW compared to demand ) and even before that.What had no relation to Tarir! Prices on TP are affected by players who Manipulate it and not the other way around.

Prices on the TP are always most affected by the majority of players in the game — manipulators can barely affect prices for hours; at best, they can adjust the equilibrium (but not in a way that is profitable for them). There’s plenty of evidence for this, especially in the dye market (where someone easily captures up supply for individual dyes and prices spike, only to return to the old values within a few days).

There also shouldn’t be any question about whether multi-looting has an impact — that’s exactly why people do it, because if offers them a means to greater wealth more easily than other methods and inevitable, lots of people with greater wealth will impact the economy.

However, the question is whether that impact is harmful to the game and it’s clear that ANet doesn’t think it is — otherwise they would have stepped in (either heavy handedly by disabling the rooms or sneakily by adjusting the loot tables).

I’m not sure why you think it’s “emotional” to look at the facts available and conclude that the markets have changed significantly in the month or so since multi-looting became popular (while no other major mechanic has changed), especially since I agree that ANet doesn’t need to urgently do anything about multi-looting.

After watching TP prices today for several resource’s what are not obtained in Tarir. Their prices droped under 40 silver what used to cost more then ectos. Very clear that TP is being manipulated thx to the system design. As for the ecto’s today checking TP ingame price of it was lowered at some point to 35s what was fast gone after an hour.

Sismis.5390:

After watching TP prices today for several resource’s what are not obtained in Tarir. Their prices droped under 40 silver what used to cost more then ectos. Very clear that TP is being manipulated thx to the system design. As for the ecto’s today checking TP ingame price of it was lowered at some point to 35s what was fast gone after an hour.

The TP is GLOBAL. EU + NA.

Short of items with VERY LIMITED supply that are not being generated anymore, there is no way ANYONE can manipulate the market.

People can place items up for sell way lower than for current asking price. They may be players looking to get money quick, but need more than the current buy orders give, but don’t need as much money as the current sell orders ask for.

Just because an item has a temporary price drop or price increase doesn’t mean that anyone is manipulating the market for that item. Especially not without THOUSANDS of players using it.

So I been reading this for awhile and I asked support and this is the response I got.

Thanks for contacting the Guild Wars 2 Support Team!

We appreciate your report. Map hopping is something we’re aware of but since players are still required to put forth effort even when changing a map, it isn’t technically considered an exploit. Should you come across any players abusing any of the rules on the Terms and Conditions please let us know!

So with that being said as long they purposely exploit a map then it would be ,but its not in this case.

While I don’t do hardcore farm I rather people play the way they want within fair play and not have misinformation being spread around.

Ferever.7014:

So I been reading this for awhile and I asked support and this is the response I got.

Thanks for contacting the Guild Wars 2 Support Team!

We appreciate your report. Map hopping is something we’re aware of but since players are still required to put forth effort even when changing a map, it isn’t technically considered an exploit. Should you come across any players abusing any of the rules on the Terms and Conditions please let us know!

So with that being said as long they purposely exploit a map then it would be ,but its not in this case.

While I don’t do hardcore farm I rather people play the way they want within fair play and not have misinformation being spread around.

Personally, I still think it is technically an exploit and will not be swayed until I see a high up person at ANet say so. In the past there have been agents that say one thing and others who say the opposite, mostly due to how the player reported it.

Because it seems that dev thinks it is the how they are map hopping that is the issue and not the multiple chests being opened.

Ferever.7014:

So I been reading this for awhile and I asked support and this is the response I got.

Thanks for contacting the Guild Wars 2 Support Team!

We appreciate your report. Map hopping is something we’re aware of but since players are still required to put forth effort even when changing a map, it isn’t technically considered an exploit. Should you come across any players abusing any of the rules on the Terms and Conditions please let us know!

So with that being said as long they purposely exploit a map then it would be ,but its not in this case.

While I don’t do hardcore farm I rather people play the way they want within fair play and not have misinformation being spread around.

Thanks for the post, Ferever.

(I am still going to refer to as an “exploit” since it does exploit the game’s mechanics and I’ll interpret Support’s response as “it’s not considered a harmful exploit”, which is entirely up to ANet to decide.)

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Ferever.7014:

So I been reading this for awhile and I asked support and this is the response I got.

Thanks for contacting the Guild Wars 2 Support Team!

We appreciate your report. Map hopping is something we’re aware of but since players are still required to put forth effort even when changing a map, it isn’t technically considered an exploit. Should you come across any players abusing any of the rules on the Terms and Conditions please let us know!

So with that being said as long they purposely exploit a map then it would be ,but its not in this case.

While I don’t do hardcore farm I rather people play the way they want within fair play and not have misinformation being spread around.

Thanks for the post, Ferever.

(I am still going to refer to as an “exploit” since it does exploit the game’s mechanics and I’ll interpret Support’s response as “it’s not considered a harmful exploit”, which is entirely up to ANet to decide.)

I think I’ll remain skeptical for now. As I recall during the AFK farming debate there were discrepancies between the support team comments and others in ANet… though I admit I could be misremembering (I don’t want to take the time right now to pour over all those posts/threads).

Also, I still don’t wish to support an action that can give equal rewards for failure…. I still feel that breaks the spirit of the game. But, that is just my decision for me… for anyone else, ymmv.

~EW

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Ferever.7014:

So I been reading this for awhile and I asked support and this is the response I got.

Thanks for contacting the Guild Wars 2 Support Team!

We appreciate your report. Map hopping is something we’re aware of but since players are still required to put forth effort even when changing a map, it isn’t technically considered an exploit. Should you come across any players abusing any of the rules on the Terms and Conditions please let us know!

So with that being said as long they purposely exploit a map then it would be ,but its not in this case.

While I don’t do hardcore farm I rather people play the way they want within fair play and not have misinformation being spread around.

Thanks for the post, Ferever.

(I am still going to refer to as an “exploit” since it does exploit the game’s mechanics and I’ll interpret Support’s response as “it’s not considered a harmful exploit”, which is entirely up to ANet to decide.)

I think I’ll remain skeptical for now. As I recall during the AFK farming debate there were discrepancies between the support team comments and others in ANet… though I admit I could be misremembering (I don’t want to take the time right now to pour over all those posts/threads).

Also, I still don’t wish to support an action that can give equal rewards for failure…. I still feel that breaks the spirit of the game. But, that is just my decision for me… for anyone else, ymmv.

~EW

It was either discrepencies or unclear communication as to what they were referring to.

It’s why I’m not going to believe anything is the official stance until I see an ANet post by someone with a relevant title. So I’m siding on the harsher side of it’s an exploit. Mind you, not a harmful one or one I feel that they should punish for. But an exploit nonetheless.

Well what ever anet does at some point players will get bored of tarir. Then it will go back like it was before June. When 99% of maps on Tarir where failed people where insulting each other every second on map chat. And then players start charging other players for a success map with gold fee like they doing achievements,jumping puzzle and other thing what is crossing players minds. And i hope some will look up forum and write a nix thank you then for ruining game experience for them with forum complains and misinformation.

Cause the whole posts with complains comes with strange mind set pople. Got already wondering my self if people suffer from misanthropy or bitterness or depression. Wishing bad things to others and no success or simple hate. What your reason are you only know it your self,then hiding behind all sorts of arguments and saying it exploit game breaking and what ever its just nice sly move.

Sismis.5390:

Well what ever anet does at some point players will get bored of tarir. Then it will go back like it was before June. When 99% of maps on Tarir where failed people where insulting each other every second on map chat. And then players start charging other players for a success map with gold fee like they doing achievements,jumping puzzle and other thing what is crossing players minds. And i hope some will look up forum and write a nix thank you then for ruining game experience for them with forum complains and misinformation.

Cause the whole posts with complains comes with strange mind set pople. Got already wondering my self if people suffer from misanthropy or bitterness or depression. Wishing bad things to others and no success or simple hate. What your reason are you only know it your self,then hiding behind all sorts of arguments and saying it exploit game breaking and what ever its just nice sly move.

Have you missed the part where those of us that say it is exploit have stated that we do not think it is ban worthy or punishment worth?

I know I haven’t said those that are doing the map hopping should be punished. I don’t think they should. It’s an exploit yes, but it doesn’t have a huge negative impact to the game so it doesn’t deserve being punished at all for using it.

Until someone at ANet with a high enough position comes out and says that what is happening is intended behavior, I will consider it an exploit.

Seera.5916:

…Until someone at ANet with a high enough position comes out and says that what is happening is intended behavior, I will consider it an exploit.

What do you classify as being an exploit? To exploit something is to take full advantage of the resource. Check, that is correct meaning, people have found the most efficient and profitable way of doing the AB Meta.
It is also to make use of a situation in an unfair or underhanded way. I don’t think that is possible because there is nothing underhanded about it, underhanded means secret, and it is not unfair to anyone as all can participate. An exploit is also a bold or daring act… Not exactly.

I don’t see how you can declare this an exploit at all. Perhaps in your opinion it is not in the spirit of the game, but that is a personal thing not reflected by the developers.

I think if they wanted to fix this situation, they have had many opportunities to do so and they have not, because as it is, it’s a good situation for the game economy as its generating a huge influx of materials that have high demand, the prices for which would have jumped up even further.

PopeUrban.2578:

It doesn’t really matter since there’s a built in limit to chest loot, and that limit is keys. The contents of those chests aren’t balanced around time spent to complete the meta. They’re balanced arount time spent to acquire those keys, which is constant. No matter how many alts you have you won’t acquire keys any faster than someone who only plays one character.

Then perhaps they should increase the key cost until the loot rewards from AB are more in line with the other maps? Or, you know, just fix the exploit.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Seera.5916:

…Until someone at ANet with a high enough position comes out and says that what is happening is intended behavior, I will consider it an exploit.

What do you classify as being an exploit? To exploit something is to take full advantage of the resource. Check, that is correct meaning, people have found the most efficient and profitable way of doing the AB Meta.
It is also to make use of a situation in an unfair or underhanded way. I don’t think that is possible because there is nothing underhanded about it, underhanded means secret, and it is not unfair to anyone as all can participate. An exploit is also a bold or daring act… Not exactly.

I don’t see how you can declare this an exploit at all. Perhaps in your opinion it is not in the spirit of the game, but that is a personal thing not reflected by the developers.

I think if they wanted to fix this situation, they have had many opportunities to do so and they have not, because as it is, it’s a good situation for the game economy as its generating a huge influx of materials that have high demand, the prices for which would have jumped up even further.

Another definition of exploit – and the one pertinent to this discussion – is to utilize a design in an unintended way. That is clearly what is happening here and the fact that they have not addressed it is not, in fact, evidence to the contrary.

AliamRationem.5172:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Seera.5916:

…Until someone at ANet with a high enough position comes out and says that what is happening is intended behavior, I will consider it an exploit.

What do you classify as being an exploit? To exploit something is to take full advantage of the resource. Check, that is correct meaning, people have found the most efficient and profitable way of doing the AB Meta.
It is also to make use of a situation in an unfair or underhanded way. I don’t think that is possible because there is nothing underhanded about it, underhanded means secret, and it is not unfair to anyone as all can participate. An exploit is also a bold or daring act… Not exactly.

I don’t see how you can declare this an exploit at all. Perhaps in your opinion it is not in the spirit of the game, but that is a personal thing not reflected by the developers.

I think if they wanted to fix this situation, they have had many opportunities to do so and they have not, because as it is, it’s a good situation for the game economy as its generating a huge influx of materials that have high demand, the prices for which would have jumped up even further.

Another definition of exploit – and the one pertinent to this discussion – is to utilize a design in an unintended way. That is clearly what is happening here and the fact that they have not addressed it is not, in fact, evidence to the contrary.

AliamRationem took the words out of my mouth.

It’s technically an exploit by definition. However, it’s not one that’s harmful to the game so I don’t think ANet should punish anyone for using it.

And I’m sure the only reason why they haven’t done anything about it, is because:

1. They’ve decided that it’s not worth trying to fix it right now since players will likely move on to LS3 when it releases in 10 days and they’re waiting to see how many players actually use it once the LS3 is going, but between the chapter releases.

2. They’re trying to figure out how to fix it. Do they make the best chest once per day? Once per 2 hours? Once per 4 hours? 6 hours? Do they reduce the drop rate on keys? Adjust the loot in the best chest?

3. They’ve got a fix for it, but it’s not a huge enough problem to warrant an immediate patch and it’s set to go live when the next planned patch goes live.

AliamRationem.5172:

Another definition of exploit – and the one pertinent to this discussion – is to utilize a design in an unintended way. That is clearly what is happening here and the fact that they have not addressed it is not, in fact, evidence to the contrary.

Can you point me to any actual dictionary definition where this is the case? Because that is no definition of exploit I have ever read. But if what you mean by that is people are able to obtain a profit from it, then its true, it is an exploit, but without any negative connotations.

To utilize a design in an unintended way is not exploiting that design, that is Unintended Use and is a hallmark of ingenuity and innovation. Its not impacting negatively unless it is also unethical, unfair or underhanded, multi-mapping is none of those.

If ANet considered it negative exploitation, then it would have been fixed by now because any programmer worth anything can put a 2hr timer on the loot chests, before morning tea. And they have had ample patches with which to implement it. No fix, no comments. No problem.

Silence on this issue is a statement that it is a non issue. If you remain silent in a court of law, they can do whatever they like with you and you have no leg to stand on. Same situation here.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

AliamRationem.5172:

Another definition of exploit – and the one pertinent to this discussion – is to utilize a design in an unintended way. That is clearly what is happening here and the fact that they have not addressed it is not, in fact, evidence to the contrary.

Can you point me to any actual dictionary definition where this is the case? Because that is no definition of exploit I have ever read. But if what you mean by that is people are able to obtain a profit from it, then its true, it is an exploit, but without any negative connotations.

To utilize a design in an unintended way is not exploiting that design, that is Unintended Use and is a hallmark of ingenuity and innovation. Its not impacting negatively unless it is also unethical, unfair or underhanded, multi-mapping is none of those.

If ANet considered it negative exploitation, then it would have been fixed by now because any programmer worth anything can put a 2hr timer on the loot chests, before morning tea. And they have had ample patches with which to implement it. No fix, no comments. No problem.

Silence on this issue is a statement that it is a non issue. If you remain silent in a court of law, they can do whatever they like with you and you have no leg to stand on. Same situation here.

Wikipedia has a page on exploits that pertains to gaming. One of the common types list is game mechanics.

“Taking advantage of the systems that make up the gameplay. A game mechanics exploit is not a bug-it is working as designed, but at the same time is not working as intended. An example is the ‘wavedash’ in Super Smash Bros. Melee, where the momentum gained from using a directional aerial dodge could be retained on landing; with proper timing this allows characters to use a stationary attack while sliding across the ground.”

And it should be noted that while what’s happened may not have been intended by ANet, they may not have any issue with it all. There have been cases where something was initially an exploit but was embraced by the company and ceased to be an exploit and instead becomes emergent game play (the interaction of two game mechanics).

But until they come out and say as much, I would be wary of not calling it what it is.

Given ANet’s silence on issues, their lack of communication doesn’t say anything. If they were more open with their communication on major issues, then maybe the silence would be the answer.

LOOOOL Sera can you scream more about something that is only bothering you and here 10 or 15 other guys…Thx again for showing that you personally have problem with the game and few others that complained here. Not to mention trying to force like others your believes of how a game should be and how others should play the game.

Not to mention how silly. You wasted time on google on searching terms exploit,to find something. That has nothing to do with GW to trow in as argument to call out here an exploit wow just wow.

Sismis.5390:

LOOOOL Sera can you scream more about something that is only bothering you and here 10 or 15 other guys…Thx again for showing that you personally have problem with the game and few others that complained here. Not to mention trying to force like others your believes of how a game should be and how others should play the game.

Not to mention how silly. You wasted time on google on searching terms exploit,to find something. That has nothing to do with GW to trow in as argument to call out here an exploit wow just wow.

You seem to be missing the fact that I have said multiple times now to you that I have absolutely no problem with people using this exploit and that they should not be punished for using it. I love how you keep assuming despite me saying otherwise that just because I say it is an exploit that I want players to stop doing it and be punished for it. Please actually read what I say instead of skimming it before responding. You might actually catch what I’m trying to say instead of assuming the wrong thing again. Because you keep missing the key points which I have now bolded and italicized for you so that may you’ll actually see them this time and they’ll register.

And the person I was responding to asked for where we got the definition of exploit that we were using from as he had never heard that definition. So sorry that I decided to find the source.

“Exploit” turns out to be another one of those words that we all treat differently, so it makes it difficult to discuss the underlying issues — we spend too much time arguing about the meaning of the word. The same thing happens in threads that use expressions such as “hard core”, “casual”, “elitist”, “optimal”, “viable”, and so on.

In this case, there are a two underlying issues that concern people, including the OP:

• Did ANet intend to make multi-loot possible when they updated the game recently?
• If not, do those engaging in multi-loot need to worry about being punished in some way for taking advantage of the alleged loophole in the mechanics that makes multi-loot possible?

I think nearly everyone agrees that ANet didn’t intend multiloot — they didn’t do anything similar in the other 3 HoT maps and there’s nothing similar elsewhere in the game.

I think most people agree that, if ANet was concerned about harm-to-the-game, they would have already taken action, drastic or otherwise. A smaller number of people think that ANet should take action and they point to TP prices (especially ecto) as an indicator of impact, although I have yet to see any mention of actual harm.

Thus, there are three major groups of people posting, using identical words to mean different things:

• Anti-multi-loot folks, using “exploit” in its most negative sense.
• Neutral or pro multi-loot players, using “exploit” as a generic term about efficiently making use of mechanics.
• Pro multi-loot participants, avoiding the use of “exploit” because it has only a negative meaning to them.

tl;dr regardless of whether multi-loot is an “exploit” or an exploit or not, hardly anyone thinks ANet is likely to suspend or take coin away from frequent participants.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

“Exploit” turns out to be another one of those words that we all treat differently, so it makes it difficult to discuss the underlying issues — we spend too much time arguing about the meaning of the word.

In this case, there are a two underlying issues that concern people, including the OP:

• Did ANet intend to make multi-loot possible when they updated the game recently?
• If not, do those engaging in multi-loot need to worry about being punished in some way for taking advantage of the alleged loophole in the mechanics that makes multi-loot possible?

I think nearly everyone agrees that ANet didn’t intend multiloot.

Aye. If anyone seriously thinks this was intentional, they need to see a therapist.

I think most people agree that, if ANet was concerned about harm-to-the-game, they would have already taken action, drastic or otherwise. A smaller number of people think that ANet should take action and they point to TP prices (especially ecto) as an indicator of impact, although I have yet to see any mention of actual harm.

There is a decided impact, but there is no massive supply-side spike, especially of ecto, yet. Sure, ecto supply is above demand (as I already mentioned) and thus price will continue to fall until equlibrium is reached, but I believe this will be a steady decline rather than a drop-off unless speculators mess stuff up. The worst “harm” I’ve seen are people kittenhurt about getting kicked and mouthing off to the comm or LT who kicked them (thankfully I don’t have this happen much as I explain rules at the start).

Thus, there are three major groups of people posting, using identical words to mean different things:

• Anti-multi-loot folks, using “exploit” in its most negative sense.

I’m pretty sure we can agree this definition is incorrect due to the fact that I, among other well-known multimap commanders, haven’t been hit with a banhammer or even a warning from anet.

• Neutral or pro multi-loot players, using “exploit” as a generic term about efficiently making use of mechanics.

This is the most logical understanding of the phrase, all things considered.

• Pro multi-loot participants, avoiding the use of “exploit” because it has only a negative meaning to them.

A.K.A: Head-in-the-sand approach.

tl;dr regardless of whether multi-loot is an “exploit” or an exploit or not, hardly anyone thinks ANet is likely to suspend or take coin away from frequent participants.

Exactly! Couldn’t have put it better myself.

(P.S: I rarely dissect someone’s post in this way, but this post deserved to have every point discussed.)

It should be nerfed to ground – because its simply too much money for so little effort. I’ve been lazy gamer this summer and still I’m now done with 3 legendaries just because of Tarir multiloot. Simply by doing it once a day nets me ~40 gold worth of ectos and other materials.

And about the keys.. When I do one defend Tarir event/day somehow I end up with more keys than I started with so no point doing events in the map either. Can’t anyway since defend Tarir event is always on. Please nerf multiloot so there is point playing the actual game again.

Its too good. I didn’t like chest farm either but I learnt way to deal with it. I anyway like SW events, and chest farm required you to do events so you can get keys and shovels. But this is ridiculously WAY TOO MUCH LOOT FOR FREE that it’s dumb, just stupid. I can’t believe they haven’t stated anything about this. Why why why they haven’t put stop to it yet?

I have started to think that they did this on purpose so anyone who owns HoT can make easily 10 times more money than free player so everyone have this huge reason to buy expansion… How about they do this on another expansion? But hey – it has to be even easier event and probably more profitable so people will move to this event from Tarir. How about with one simple 5 min event you can net 200 gold. Event rolls all the friggin time. How much fun. 1 gem would cost 1000 gold in no time. Trading post would explode with inflation. Free players would be forced to buy new expansion again. Everyone wins!

(edit: since I finished my 3rd legendary with help of Tarir. 60g/run was too much 40 would be closer but its still waayy too much.

All the time I meant with this amount of loot it should run once a day max. )

flarezi.9381:

It should be nerfed to ground – and it will be – because its simply too much money for so little effort. I’ve been lazy gamer this summer and still I’m almost done with 2 legendaries because of Tarir multiloot. Simply by doing it once a day nets me 60 gold worth of ectos and other materials. Its too good. No point playing the game anymore. Tarir is almost always on anyone just log in and get the loot. When I do one defend Tarir event/day somehow I end up with more keys than I started with so no point doing events in the map either. Can’t anyway since defend Tarir event is always on. Please nerf multiloot so theres point playing the game again.

First off, if you’re really netting ~60g / run I want to know what method you’re using. I typically net 20-30g max, and I use the “fast swapping” method and multiple toons.

Secondly, I don’t know what you mean by “the defend Tarir event is always up”. Like all other HoT metas, it spawns once every 2 hours.

EDIT: That math for the 2 legendaries isn’t right either, assuming your 60g/day estimate is correct – 60×30=1800g – not enough for even 1 legendary.

If Anet intended for people to get 20+ grand chests every octovine event, they would have put that many chests on one map. The multimap is clearly creative use of game mechanics and should be patched.

My thought is that they will likely try to make it so you can’t join a completed map till the timer runs out like in DS, preventing the excessive looting.

Ubi.4136:

If Anet intended for people to get 20+ grand chests every octovine event, they would have put that many chests on one map. The multimap is clearly creative use of game mechanics and should be patched.

My thought is that they will likely try to make it so you can’t join a completed map till the timer runs out like in DS, preventing the excessive looting.

The weird thing is that you would have thought they would have done something about it by now if they were going to do anything. I doubt breach-hopping during SW’s primetime (and still today) was intentional, but yet it remains. Perhaps they will treat multimap the same way.

I seriously doubt any sane person believes that ANET anticipated this, but their silence leads me to believe that they either a) aren’t going to patch it, but don’t want to encourage people, or b) are on the fence about what to do.

Typical spreading of misinformation continues.Cause majority cannot see what Anet does from statistic and what they have setting in place.This here is just continued hate spam without end. Some 10-15 guys trying like politicians make one believe into something. Even not believing this crap this guy wrote that he gets 60+ or more ecto per run why there is a thing called DR ingame that prevents that. Even 2 days ago did 1 run salvaged again to see 30 rare to end up with only 4 ectos.

*ArenaNet has never shared the precise details of how diminishing returns is implemented in Guild Wars 2, with the exception of dungeon reward DR. From various posts by the company’s staff, players have pieced together the general concepts:

The more often a character loots from similar foes within an area, the more quickly DR triggers.
Once triggered, the impact of DR will increase until you won’t get any loot at all anymore.
The only way to “remove” DR is to go somewhere else for a length of time that is partly random and partly dependent on how much DR that character has. Usually, it lasts no more than 15-20 minutes if the character actively participates in other content.
Except for dungeons, DR is character based, which means:
Swapping characters results in a fresh start, with no DR.
Each individual character must leave the affected area for a time in order to reset the DR, i.e. swapping to a second character does not help reset DR on the first.*

Just a interesting thig that people do not stop and continue this hate train here.They tried breaking economy,calling it exploit,abuse and all sorts of things. Go try again to come up with something to add to the list…

That ol noob.7083:

Ubi.4136:

If Anet intended for people to get 20+ grand chests every octovine event, they would have put that many chests on one map. The multimap is clearly creative use of game mechanics and should be patched.

My thought is that they will likely try to make it so you can’t join a completed map till the timer runs out like in DS, preventing the excessive looting.

The weird thing is that you would have thought they would have done something about it by now if they were going to do anything. I doubt breach-hopping during SW’s primetime (and still today) was intentional, but yet it remains. Perhaps they will treat multimap the same way.

I seriously doubt any sane person believes that ANET anticipated this, but their silence leads me to believe that they either a) aren’t going to patch it, but don’t want to encourage people, or b) are on the fence about what to do.

They might have been waiting for the 26th to do something. They do like to bundle things instead of releasing when it should be.

I was in favor of this until the many many many rude disgusting commanders turn me against AB farm, i am ready to see it get nerfed now, plus this farm has a huge effect on the other HoT maps, it’s a real struggle to find people for TD meta..

Sismis.5390:

there is a thing called DR ingame that prevents that.

DR doesn’t apply to opening chests. It doesn’t apply to the salvage rates of ecto.

Sismis.5390:

Typical spreading of misinformation continues.Cause majority cannot see what Anet does from statistic and what they have setting in place.This here is just continued hate spam without end. Some 10-15 guys trying like politicians make one believe into something. Even not believing this crap this guy wrote that he gets 60+ or more ecto per run why there is a thing called DR ingame that prevents that. Even 2 days ago did 1 run salvaged again to see 30 rare to end up with only 4 ectos.

*ArenaNet has never shared the precise details of how diminishing returns is implemented in Guild Wars 2, with the exception of dungeon reward DR. From various posts by the company’s staff, players have pieced together the general concepts:

The more often a character loots from similar foes within an area, the more quickly DR triggers.
Once triggered, the impact of DR will increase until you won’t get any loot at all anymore.
The only way to “remove” DR is to go somewhere else for a length of time that is partly random and partly dependent on how much DR that character has. Usually, it lasts no more than 15-20 minutes if the character actively participates in other content.
Except for dungeons, DR is character based, which means:
Swapping characters results in a fresh start, with no DR.
Each individual character must leave the affected area for a time in order to reset the DR, i.e. swapping to a second character does not help reset DR on the first.*

Just a interesting thig that people do not stop and continue this hate train here.They tried breaking economy,calling it exploit,abuse and all sorts of things. Go try again to come up with something to add to the list…

Please go back and carefully read the thread again. Because you have yet to understand that those of us saying it is an exploit are NOT SAYING IT IS A BAD EXPLOIT. There are games out there where an exploit has been turned into a game feature by the company based on the effects of the exploit.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Sismis.5390:

there is a thing called DR ingame that prevents that.

DR doesn’t apply to opening chests. It doesn’t apply to the salvage rates of ecto.

Also, they officially removed all loot DR from the game a couple patches ago according to Mike O’Brian.

I get why some people would not agree with this way of farming. Talking from experience in the past, some exploits, like the one on the Lyssa temple in Malchors or the beach in Cursed Shores, these particular farm method were found to be disruptive to others who wanted to simply play the zone’s event.

However… and this is just a question… With people also finding a way to do this in AB with the Tarir event, I have participated myself, I have stood aside and just played it regularly while others multi-mapped, and my question is: Is Tarir Multi-Mapping in anyway interrupting the way the others who are NOT multi-mapping, is it interfering with their game play?

By my experience, it’s not, and if it truly isn’t, then what’s the problem? Why would some want it stopped? You can’t freely toss around the “It’s just not fair!” complain, because it’ll be poorly received.

I been playing MMOs since 2001 and I can honestly said not a one of them are 100% fair, and even if it was eliminated, it’s only gonna be a matter of time before the players find something else to exploit. So, if it’s not disruptive to the regular game player, then why campaign for it’s removal?