Guild Wars 2

It doesn’t really affect others, in fact it helps since there are more people motivated to succeed Octovine whereas if there was no multimap everyone just tries to get onto a good map and ignore the potentially bad ones or they just sit at east and AFK since killing it at :14 or :20 makes no difference to their loot.

The type of gameplay for effective reward farming matters.
This is what the game encourages players to do, and GW2 has some really bad ones:

• Auric Basin multiloot
• Silverwastes chest farm
• Lvl 40 fractal farm
• Champion farm

The following content deserves to offer top-tier rewards:

• Raids
• Guild missions
• Completing (non-grindy) Permanent Achievements.
• Ranked PvP non-repeatable division/tier rewards (assuming decent progression)
• Daily high tier fractals

Well below the top-tier rewards are farm rewards. Those wishing to farm for hours on end should be encouraged to complete a set of reasonably diverse content.

Example Farm-rewards:

• Daily completionist
• Dungeon paths
• Daily exotic achievement chests
• Hero’s choice chest (once per day per account for each HoT map).
  Ensure that it only drops when you have 100% participation.
• Daily completion of Tequatl, The shatterer, Claw of Jormag, Triple trouble, Vinewrath.

Fergus.4208:

The type of gameplay for effective reward farming matters.
This is what the game encourages players to do, and GW2 has some really bad ones:

• Auric Basin multiloot
• Silverwastes chest farm
• Lvl 40 fractal farm
• Champion farm

The following content deserves to offer top-tier rewards:

• Raids
• Guild missions
• Completing (non-grindy) Permanent Achievements.
• Ranked PvP non-repeatable division/tier rewards (assuming decent progression)
• Daily high tier fractals

Well below the top-tier rewards are farm rewards. Those wishing to farm for hours on end should be encouraged to complete a set of reasonably diverse content.

Example Farm-rewards:

• Daily completionist
• Dungeon paths
• Daily exotic achievement chests
• Hero’s choice chest (once per day per account for each HoT map).
  Ensure that it only drops when you have 100% participation.
• Daily completion of Tequatl, The shatterer, Claw of Jormag, Triple trouble, Vinewrath.

I don’t see how any of the things you listed are really bad.

Auric Basin multiloot isn’t really bad. Yes, it does increase the supply of some mats at a faster rate than other activities, but it does require work and cooperation of many other players to pull off. And is only as effective as your ability to get keys and get on the maps with the cooperating players is. The solution to this problem is so easy that if it was really bad, there would be a fix in place already. Or at minimum a cease and desist warning from ANet about it.

Silverwastes/Champion farming is not really bad. Some people need easier activities after a hard day at work and it is nice that ANet offers content that fits their needs.

Lvl 40 Fractal farm: If that’s the fractal level players want to play, what’s so bad about that? You might not like doing the same thing over and over again, but others aren’t bothered by that in the least.

So please explain how those farms are so bad. You do realize that all the players who farm those activities farm them for specific reasons and if you take away these farms, they’ll just find new farms, right? Your goal will not be accomplished.

Seera.5916:

Silverwastes/Champion farming is not really bad. Some people need easier activities after a hard day at work and it is nice that ANet offers content that fits their needs.

People can kill 1,000,000 dolyaks for all I care, but should it be the most rewarding content? Why should running in circles and opening chests be far more profitable than almost any other style of gameplay?

Having a set of daily objectives take priority over silverwastes chest farming, would ensure that people would farm those first.

The chest farm should be nerfed by increasing the bandit crest cost of bandit skeleton keys. People doing vinewrath for the daily reward would then also accumulate bandit crests, and occasionally do a chest farm. That is how the chest farm should have worked from the beginning.

Fergus.4208:

Seera.5916:

Silverwastes/Champion farming is not really bad. Some people need easier activities after a hard day at work and it is nice that ANet offers content that fits their needs.

People can kill 1,000,000 dolyaks for all I care, but should it be the most rewarding content? Why should running in circles and opening chests be far more profitable than almost any other style of gameplay?

Having a set of daily objectives take priority over silverwastes chest farming, would ensure that people would farm those first.

The chest farm should be nerfed by increasing the bandit crest cost of bandit skeleton keys. People doing vinewrath for the daily reward would then also accumulate bandit crests, and occasionally do a chest farm. That is how the chest farm should have worked from the beginning.

When you start talking about how things ‘should be’ you lose any credibility. If Anet thought that was the way things ‘should be’ they would have changed it to be more in line with that idea. You have no power over this game, and not everything ‘needs’ to be a certain way.

Seems like you have an idea of how people should be playing, which kinda goes against what a lot of this game stands for. I suggest you find a new MMO since you find how GW2 does things, is so bad.

“Why should running in circles and opening chests be far more profitable than almost any other style of gameplay?”

It’s not. Event/Winewraith farming is more profitable. Did you even look into this before you went off and blabbed your mouth?

Fergus.4208:

Seera.5916:

Silverwastes/Champion farming is not really bad. Some people need easier activities after a hard day at work and it is nice that ANet offers content that fits their needs.

People can kill 1,000,000 dolyaks for all I care, but should it be the most rewarding content? Why should running in circles and opening chests be far more profitable than almost any other style of gameplay?

Having a set of daily objectives take priority over silverwastes chest farming, would ensure that people would farm those first.

The chest farm should be nerfed by increasing the bandit crest cost of bandit skeleton keys. People doing vinewrath for the daily reward would then also accumulate bandit crests, and occasionally do a chest farm. That is how the chest farm should have worked from the beginning.

You do realize that the players doing those farms are doing them for the gold they get. You nerf that farm, they will move on to another farm. Then you’ll ask for that to be nerfed. And eventually it goes around in a circle and Silverwastes/Champion farming will be the farm again. Players will farm the things that give them most X per time spent on average where X is whatever they need, be it karma, gold, map currency, etc.

Seera.5916:

You do realize that the players doing those farms are doing them for the gold they get. You nerf that farm, they will move on to another farm. Then you’ll ask for that to be nerfed. And eventually it goes around in a circle and Silverwastes/Champion farming will be the farm again. Players will farm the things that give them most X per time spent on average where X is whatever they need, be it karma, gold, map currency, etc.

And this is true because most parts of the game are unrewarding, if you got rewarded for doing other stuff in game people wouldn’t resort to this mindless farming, they do it because they want the loot for whatever there goal is, I did Shatterer ( a massive world event ) and got 3 blues and a green from the chest ( sure you get the rare from the daily chest ) but in that same 13 mins it took to kill, I could have gotten what, 20 champ bags from SW, but sadly instead of saying oh jeez maybe other events are unrewarding, they will go SW is to profitable nerfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff.

Ok I Did It.2854:

Seera.5916:

You do realize that the players doing those farms are doing them for the gold they get. You nerf that farm, they will move on to another farm. Then you’ll ask for that to be nerfed. And eventually it goes around in a circle and Silverwastes/Champion farming will be the farm again. Players will farm the things that give them most X per time spent on average where X is whatever they need, be it karma, gold, map currency, etc.

And this is true because most parts of the game are unrewarding, if you got rewarded for doing other stuff in game people wouldn’t resort to this mindless farming, they do it because they want the loot for whatever there goal is, I did Shatterer ( a massive world event ) and got 3 blues and a green from the chest ( sure you get the rare from the daily chest ) but in that same 13 mins it took to kill, I could have gotten what, 20 champ bags from SW, but sadly instead of saying oh jeez maybe other events are unrewarding, they will go SW is to profitable nerfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff.

You do realize that if content had great rewards that players would still farm the events that gave the best profit/hour on average, right? And that if in general the game was more rewarding, players would sell their items for more because players are getting better rewards on average and that would cause inflation from where we currently are?

Changing loot on events does not remove the fact that players will farm content to get the gold/karma/items/etc needed for their current goal. And they will choose the content that gives them the highest gold on average per hour for them. Changing which event gives the best gold/hour (either by nerfing the current farm or buffing another event) does not change the fact that players will farm the event with the best gold/hour.

Seera.5916:

You do realize that the players doing those farms are doing them for the gold they get. You nerf that farm, they will move on to another farm. Then you’ll ask for that to be nerfed. And eventually it goes around in a circle and Silverwastes/Champion farming will be the farm again. Players will farm the things that give them most X per time spent on average where X is whatever they need, be it karma, gold, map currency, etc.

I will repeat what I said:
Those wishing to farm for hours on end should be encouraged to complete a set of reasonably diverse content.

Example Farm-rewards:

• Daily completionist
• Dungeon paths
• Low tier daily fractals (high tier dailies have very high rewards)
• Daily exotic achievement chests
• Hero’s choice chest (once per day per account for each HoT map).
• Ensure that it only drops when you have 100% participation.
• Daily completion of Tequatl, The shatterer, Claw of Jormag, Triple trouble, Vinewrath.

You ensure that the intended farms are the most profitable content. Going through all will take many hours (even when dungeons are excluded).

Whenever a more profitable repeatable farm pops us, like SW chest farming and AB multiloot, then you nerf those to ensure farmers will stick to the intended farm objectives. This is not difficult to achieve:

• You increase the daily rewards of the intended farm objectives.
• You can nerf SW farm by increasing bandit crest cost of bandit skeleton keys and/or removing bandit crests from chests. You may have to increase bandit crest cost of direct loot, such as bags of rare gear, to ensure you don’t kill the farm entirely.
  Hence the farm itself will be highly profitable, but only if you have the bandit crests already. Killing the vinewrath could be one of the intended daily farm objectives, hence farmers would ammulate bandit crests and occasionally do a SW chest run.
• You can nerf AB farm by removing multiloot, or nerf grand chest rewards. If you can’t remove multiloot directly, then you can require 100% participation to be able to open grand and great chests.

Fergus.4208:

Seera.5916:

You do realize that the players doing those farms are doing them for the gold they get. You nerf that farm, they will move on to another farm. Then you’ll ask for that to be nerfed. And eventually it goes around in a circle and Silverwastes/Champion farming will be the farm again. Players will farm the things that give them most X per time spent on average where X is whatever they need, be it karma, gold, map currency, etc.

I will repeat what I said:
Those wishing to farm for hours on end should be encouraged to complete a set of reasonably diverse content.

Example Farm-rewards:

• Daily completionist
• Dungeon paths
• Daily exotic achievement chests
• Hero’s choice chest (once per day per account for each HoT map).
• Ensure that it only drops when you have 100% participation.
• Daily completion of Tequatl, The shatterer, Claw of Jormag, Triple trouble, Vinewrath.

You ensure that the intended farms are the most profitable content. Going through all will take many hours (even when dungeons are excluded).

Whenever a more profitable repeatable farm pops us, like SW chest farming and AB multiloot, then you nerf those to ensure farmers will stick to the intended farm objectives. This is not difficult to achieve:

• You can nerf SW farm by increasing bandit crest cost of bandit skeleton keys and/or removing bandit crests from chests. You may have to increase bandit crest cost of direct loot, such as bags of rare gear, to ensure you don’t kill the farm entirely.
  Hence the farm itself will be highly profitable, but only if you have the bandit crests already.
• You can nerf AB farm by removing multiloot, or nerf grand chest rewards. If you can’t remove multiloot directly, then you can require 100% participation to be able to open grand and great chests.

Players will farm the content that is the most profit per hour. That will ONLY BE ONE event or chain of events. They will not jump from one event to another because that is inefficient use of their time.

There is no way to make players farm a variety of content in one play session. Farmers will ALWAYS choose the content that gives them the most profit per hour on average.

Seera.5916:

Players will farm the content that is the most profit per hour. That will ONLY BE ONE event or chain of events. They will not jump from one event to another because that is inefficient use of their time.

There is no way to make players farm a variety of content in one play session. Farmers will ALWAYS choose the content that gives them the most profit per hour on average.

I beg you! Please reread my post.

Anet can easily ensure players will farm a variety of content in one play session by making that more profitable than any repeatable farm.

Fergus.4208:

Seera.5916:

Players will farm the content that is the most profit per hour. That will ONLY BE ONE event or chain of events. They will not jump from one event to another because that is inefficient use of their time.

There is no way to make players farm a variety of content in one play session. Farmers will ALWAYS choose the content that gives them the most profit per hour on average.

I beg you! Please reread my post.

Anet can easily ensure players will farm a variety of content in one play session by making that more profitable than any repeatable farm.

If it’s not repeatable it’s not a farm. Players looking to get a ton of gold for their goals will farm the most profitable content. And that will be whatever content gives them the most gold/karma/etc per hour. And it will be something that they can repeat.

As soon as they complete your little list, they will go back to whatever becomes the most profitable per hour content there is and farm it. Your list accomplishes nothing. If your goal is to get players to not farm that content it will fail. It will still be farmed.

Edit: And they’d only do the ones that don’t take forever to do because the point of farming is to get the most gold/whatever as fast as possible so they likely wouldn’t do a full dungeon rotation unless they really liked dungeons and had a group to run it with. And there will be players who will decide that just continuing to do the most profit/hour content will be the best thing for them because they don’t have to spend time running off doing random other things that aren’t necessarily very profitable.

http://imgur.com/a/WMrAP AB multi-loot map changed people mind!

Anet should add a debuff like Mordrem Vinewrath boss (that prevents you from facing the boss again.)

Fergus.4208:

Seera.5916:

Players will farm the content that is the most profit per hour. That will ONLY BE ONE event or chain of events. They will not jump from one event to another because that is inefficient use of their time.

There is no way to make players farm a variety of content in one play session. Farmers will ALWAYS choose the content that gives them the most profit per hour on average.

I beg you! Please reread my post.

Anet can easily ensure players will farm a variety of content in one play session by making that more profitable than any repeatable farm.

That’s starting to sound a bit totalitarian to me.

So what if doing something you find boring is profitable to those who decide to do it repeatedly for hours? What do you have against those that wish to do that?

Multi-mapping will eventually effect everyone, regardless if you do it or not.

Rewards are designed with the economy in mind. The intended reward is what you receive for completing the event-chain once, on a single map.

Expect one of two things to happen:

1. The ability to multi-map rewards will be eliminated
2. The rewards will be generally lowered to compensate for multi-mapping

Option #1 requires some code changes that may be very difficult — keep in mind that multi-mapping has been around since the original L.A. Karka Invasion event shortly after GW2 was launched.

Option #2 makes it so the multi-map reward is now the intended reward. This would penalize everyone who doesn’t multi-map. In short, multi-map becomes the nominal design path for the event.

When you look at it from a game design perspective (and not as a “what I get, what you get, etc.” perspective), you can see why multi-mapping for rewards can be a problem.

What’s interesting is that this meta has slowly chewed into the prices for materials. Ectos are down 30% from the peak, Elder Wood Planks are down 13%, Mithril Ignots are down 50% as examples.

It’s hard to say if demand has waned or not, but if it hasn’t then prices are likely to shoot above their old peaks if something like the AB multi-map isn’t added, or other sources of materials are added.

if u nerf the AB u take my job and then we go back again to the dead brain SW…

juno.1840:

Multi-mapping will eventually effect everyone, regardless if you do it or not.

Rewards are designed with the economy in mind. The intended reward is what you receive for completing the event-chain once, on a single map.

Expect one of two things to happen:

1. The ability to multi-map rewards will be eliminated
2. The rewards will be generally lowered to compensate for multi-mapping

Option #1 requires some code changes that may be very difficult — keep in mind that multi-mapping has been around since the original L.A. Karka Invasion event shortly after GW2 was launched.

Option #2 makes it so the multi-map reward is now the intended reward. This would penalize everyone who doesn’t multi-map. In short, multi-map becomes the nominal design path for the event.

When you look at it from a game design perspective (and not as a “what I get, what you get, etc.” perspective), you can see why multi-mapping for rewards can be a problem.

What you fail to realize is that ‘intention’ isn’t even a factor here. PLAYER are the ones that started multilooting.

It is up to Anet to decide if they will allow it or not, or if they even have a problem with it. Trying to set up this false dichotomy of actions is pathetic. There’s always the option to just do nothing. The same thing they have done or said about it since it started, which is nothing.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Fergus.4208:

Seera.5916:

Players will farm the content that is the most profit per hour. That will ONLY BE ONE event or chain of events. They will not jump from one event to another because that is inefficient use of their time.

There is no way to make players farm a variety of content in one play session. Farmers will ALWAYS choose the content that gives them the most profit per hour on average.

I beg you! Please reread my post.

Anet can easily ensure players will farm a variety of content in one play session by making that more profitable than any repeatable farm.

That’s starting to sound a bit totalitarian to me.

So what if doing something you find boring is profitable to those who decide to do it repeatedly for hours? What do you have against those that wish to do that?

This way my point as well. He’s coming off as a complete ideologue who thinks games ‘should’ be played a certain way. Never mind the fact that players come up with ways to work within the system and its up to Anet to decide if they will allow it, or end it. But instead he rambles on about how everything ‘should be’ as if he knows the one true way that games should be played.

No where did I mention “player intent” Draco. My points strictly focused on game design which includes the economy. I’ll reiterate my point again since you missed it:

Regardless of whether you think multi-map looting is ok or not, the loot proliferation may be outside the boundaries considered by the Game Designers. As a result, the game will likely be changed to accommodate — either by reducing the rewards or eliminating the ability to multi-map.

The game must operate to a sound design or parts of it (like the economy) go to hell. This means the design is predicated on valid assumptions. If one of those assumptions is “players will loot event rewards once” then that aspect of the design is not being met.

Regardless of what you think about the multiloot thing itself, I have to say that this sort of stuff is one of my favourite aspects of MMORPGs. The collective ingenuity of players to find ways to play and things to do that the devs could never have predicted. It’s like those crazy skill builds in GW1. What? A monk with only 55 hit points? Are you mad???

Multiloot requires a significant degree of cooperation between complete strangers for the benefit of all. It’s remarkable it works at all tbh.

DoctorDing.5890:

Regardless of what you think about the multiloot thing itself, I have to say that this sort of stuff is one of my favourite aspects of MMORPGs. The collective ingenuity of players to find ways to play and things to do that the devs could never have predicted. It’s like those crazy skill builds in GW1. What? A monk with only 55 hit points? Are you mad???

Multiloot requires a significant degree of cooperation between complete strangers for the benefit of all. It’s remarkable it works at all tbh.

Yes, I agree: regardless of whether this was intended or whether it should be allowed, it’s impressive how people managed to create this model of economic efficiency.

There is nothing about AB in the patch notes, has anything been changed in-game?

No, mulitloot squads still work like pre-patch.

Except that now you can auto-salvage! This will save AB looters a lot of time!

Well that’s that. If Anet wanted this gone, they would have patched it today. Instead, they pretty much buffed it with auto salvage, so anet has made their position clear that they are fine with multimap. With that being said, lock this thread, and put this all behind us.

(Django Unchaiined)

Jaymee.1560:

I get why some people would not agree with this way of farming. Talking from experience in the past, some exploits, like the one on the Lyssa temple in Malchors or the beach in Cursed Shores, these particular farm method were found to be disruptive to others who wanted to simply play the zone’s event.

However… and this is just a question… With people also finding a way to do this in AB with the Tarir event, I have participated myself, I have stood aside and just played it regularly while others multi-mapped, and my question is: Is Tarir Multi-Mapping in anyway interrupting the way the others who are NOT multi-mapping, is it interfering with their game play?

By my experience, it’s not, and if it truly isn’t, then what’s the problem? Why would some want it stopped? You can’t freely toss around the “It’s just not fair!” complain, because it’ll be poorly received.

I been playing MMOs since 2001 and I can honestly said not a one of them are 100% fair, and even if it was eliminated, it’s only gonna be a matter of time before the players find something else to exploit. So, if it’s not disruptive to the regular game player, then why campaign for it’s removal?

It doesn’t matter. The fact is it’s an exploit. The developers don’t design rewards to be collected repeatedly for a single event completion. But it also doesn’t matter what we think. It isn’t up to us to determine whether or not this is a problem that requires fixing. It’s up to ANet.

But I do think it’s funny the lengths players will go to defend their cash cow. The guy who copy/pasted the other definitions of “exploit” was internet gold! What? You think we’re too stupid to understand which definition of the word we’re using in a sentence? LoL

AliamRationem.5172:

Jaymee.1560:

I get why some people would not agree with this way of farming. Talking from experience in the past, some exploits, like the one on the Lyssa temple in Malchors or the beach in Cursed Shores, these particular farm method were found to be disruptive to others who wanted to simply play the zone’s event.

However… and this is just a question… With people also finding a way to do this in AB with the Tarir event, I have participated myself, I have stood aside and just played it regularly while others multi-mapped, and my question is: Is Tarir Multi-Mapping in anyway interrupting the way the others who are NOT multi-mapping, is it interfering with their game play?

By my experience, it’s not, and if it truly isn’t, then what’s the problem? Why would some want it stopped? You can’t freely toss around the “It’s just not fair!” complain, because it’ll be poorly received.

I been playing MMOs since 2001 and I can honestly said not a one of them are 100% fair, and even if it was eliminated, it’s only gonna be a matter of time before the players find something else to exploit. So, if it’s not disruptive to the regular game player, then why campaign for it’s removal?

It doesn’t matter. The fact is it’s an exploit. The developers don’t design rewards to be collected repeatedly for a single event completion. But it also doesn’t matter what we think. It isn’t up to us to determine whether or not this is a problem that requires fixing. It’s up to ANet.

But I do think it’s funny the lengths players will go to defend their cash cow. The guy who copy/pasted the other definitions of “exploit” was internet gold! What? You think we’re too stupid to understand which definition of the word we’re using in a sentence? LoL

Some exploits in other games have become legal things that can be done in a game and cease to be exploits.

So while it may be currently exploiting the game’s mechanics, it doesn’t mean that ANet can’t come out and say that while it wasn’t intended for the game to work like this that they have no problem with players doing so since it does take work and cooperation to pull off and has no significant impact on the economy. And then boom, it ceases to be an exploit, but becomes emergent game play.

PS: I’ve never been to Auric Basin so I’m not defending my cash cow before you claim I am.

Seera.5916:

AliamRationem.5172:

Jaymee.1560:

I get why some people would not agree with this way of farming. Talking from experience in the past, some exploits, like the one on the Lyssa temple in Malchors or the beach in Cursed Shores, these particular farm method were found to be disruptive to others who wanted to simply play the zone’s event.

However… and this is just a question… With people also finding a way to do this in AB with the Tarir event, I have participated myself, I have stood aside and just played it regularly while others multi-mapped, and my question is: Is Tarir Multi-Mapping in anyway interrupting the way the others who are NOT multi-mapping, is it interfering with their game play?

By my experience, it’s not, and if it truly isn’t, then what’s the problem? Why would some want it stopped? You can’t freely toss around the “It’s just not fair!” complain, because it’ll be poorly received.

I been playing MMOs since 2001 and I can honestly said not a one of them are 100% fair, and even if it was eliminated, it’s only gonna be a matter of time before the players find something else to exploit. So, if it’s not disruptive to the regular game player, then why campaign for it’s removal?

It doesn’t matter. The fact is it’s an exploit. The developers don’t design rewards to be collected repeatedly for a single event completion. But it also doesn’t matter what we think. It isn’t up to us to determine whether or not this is a problem that requires fixing. It’s up to ANet.

But I do think it’s funny the lengths players will go to defend their cash cow. The guy who copy/pasted the other definitions of “exploit” was internet gold! What? You think we’re too stupid to understand which definition of the word we’re using in a sentence? LoL

Some exploits in other games have become legal things that can be done in a game and cease to be exploits.

So while it may be currently exploiting the game’s mechanics, it doesn’t mean that ANet can’t come out and say that while it wasn’t intended for the game to work like this that they have no problem with players doing so since it does take work and cooperation to pull off and has no significant impact on the economy. And then boom, it ceases to be an exploit, but becomes emergent game play.

PS: I’ve never been to Auric Basin so I’m not defending my cash cow before you claim I am.

Not at all. I think we’re in agreement. My point was that it’s up to ANet to kitten the situation and make the call. Their decision has no bearing on whether or not this is an exploit, however. There is no sound argument one can make to explain why the game developers would have assigned rewards to this event with the intention that players collect those rewards multiple times per event completion. That was clearly not intended, regardless of whether or not it creates a problem worth fixing.

Honestly, the most efficient way to get gold in this game is to get a job and buy gems to convert to gold…. soo… until they nerf that I’m not worried about AB or SW chest farm.

Venatorn.7619:

tl;dr-
“I don’t like it, therefore it is unfair and needs to be changed”

That pretty much sums up this thread and so so many threads. It’s also a good indication of their voting record.

TheFantasticGuy.7206:

Honestly, the most efficient way to get gold in this game is to get a job and buy gems to convert to gold…. soo… until they nerf that I’m not worried about AB or SW chest farm.

Venatorn.7619:

tl;dr-
“I don’t like it, therefore it is unfair and needs to be changed”

That pretty much sums up this thread and so so many threads. It’s also a good indication of their voting record.

I presented why the multi-map looting may be a problem from the perspective of game design — not personal player preference. You can scroll back up and read it if you’d like. So your blanket statement is not accurate — especially if you’re looking for constructive discussion.

I personally don’t care how other people play, and I won’t say whether I multi-map or not. However, from a game design perspective multi-map looting may be a problem. If it is, I’m sure ANet will address it. If it does not present a game design problem, then they won’t.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Exploit

“ArenaNet defines an exploit as any deliberate action that provides an unfair advantage over other players or otherwise hurts the game, community, or economy; it does not matter whether the exploit is a hack or makes use of a mechanic (bugged or otherwise) within the game.”

Multi-mapping is an exploit. People are manipulating how maps stay open and close in order to get loot. Manipulating the server this way is indeed and exploit. Loot or not.

AB multi-mapping doesn’t provide an unfair advantage over other players, it’s one of the most participative and ‘socialist’ uses of the squad function. Is it also an exploit to invite people into your home instance if you’ve got a bunch of nodes they cannot afford?

Some commanders can be excessively strict, but it is somewhat necessary for the greater good and overall this does far more good for the community (efficiently run farms allow more people to participate, multi-mapping encourages people to complete the AB map events) than harm.

I’d argue that it helps the economy by generating a steady supply of a number of essential mats as well. This isn’t a ‘gold out of thin air’ kind of deal like dungeons and fractals.

Why are the mods merging threads on this when they delete or ban threads on other minor offenses???

Fluffball.8307:

Why are the mods merging threads on this when they delete or ban threads on other minor offenses???

Because maybe ANet has decided that while at the time it started was an exploit, but ANet’s decided that the multi-map looting isn’t horrible to the game that they will allow it to continue. Which would make the Auric Basin multi-mapping emergent game play.

If it was an exploit, it would have been fixed or been attempted to be fixed in the last patch. Especially with the patch adding salvage all which makes it less annoying to get tons of loot.

So interesting to see people actually rally against this, especially when appealing to pedantic arguments of what an exploit is or isn’t. It doesn’t actually matter. It’s driven completely by jealousy and it’s sad because all these ectos coming to market (or not being purchased by these multimappers) are keeping prices reasonable. Such short-sighted, selfish individual thinking in this thread.

Jahroots.6791:

AB multi-mapping doesn’t provide an unfair advantage over other players, it’s one of the most participative and ‘socialist’ uses of the squad function. Is it also an exploit to invite people into your home instance if you’ve got a bunch of nodes they cannot afford?

Some commanders can be excessively strict, but it is somewhat necessary for the greater good and overall this does far more good for the community (efficiently run farms allow more people to participate, multi-mapping encourages people to complete the AB map events) than harm.

I’d argue that it helps the economy by generating a steady supply of a number of essential mats as well. This isn’t a ‘gold out of thin air’ kind of deal like dungeons and fractals.

You’re correct. It isn’t a “gold out of thin air” situation like dungeon rewards. But to suggest that this somehow indicates that the exploit is problem-free is disingenuous. All actions have repercussions in economics. AB multi-map floods the game with salvaged loot at a rate FAR beyond anything achievable anywhere else in the game. A situation which you seem to indicate is purely a benefit to the game.

Somehow I doubt you would agree if I made the statement: We should get 10 times as much loot from everything because it wouldn’t be a “gold-out-of-thin-air” scenario like dungeon rewards.

Of course, that would obviously not be justified. Why multiply loot across the board by 10? It would simply result in tanked prices as the supply increases while demand decreases due to everyone having more supply with the same number of ways to utilize it.

All you’ve done here is localize that scenario to one event in the entire game. Does that sound like a good idea to you?

Seera.5916:

Fluffball.8307:

Why are the mods merging threads on this when they delete or ban threads on other minor offenses???

Because maybe ANet has decided that while at the time it started was an exploit, but ANet’s decided that the multi-map looting isn’t horrible to the game that they will allow it to continue. Which would make the Auric Basin multi-mapping emergent game play.

If it was an exploit, it would have been fixed or been attempted to be fixed in the last patch. Especially with the patch adding salvage all which makes it less annoying to get tons of loot.

Wrong. ANet’s decision on whether or when to make a change has no bearing on whether or not it is an exploit. An exploit is simply utilizing game mechanics in an unintended way. It doesn’t necessarily indicate that it must be “fixed”. Some exploits are rather minor and just become part of the way the game is played.

Again, there is no sound argument we can make to explain why they would have intentionally designed this one event so that players may participate once, and then receive the rewards multiple times. Thus it IS an exploit. Whether or not it needs to be fixed is entirely up to ANet.

AliamRationem.5172:

Thus it IS an exploit. Whether or not it needs to be fixed is entirely up to ANet.

If it can be fixed. There seems to be a lot of assumptions through this thread that it is an easy fix. What if it’s not? What if it’s an expensive and time consuming fix that they don’t have the budget allocated to fix when there are game-interrupting bugs that have higher urgency?

It is a popular enough exploit that I think it is safe to assume they’re monitoring the impact, especially using information they can gather that we can’t or wouldn’t know to look at. I think that if there were a significant urgency, a severe threat to the game’s economy, that it would take a higher priority to fix. That they haven’t changed it yet tells us only that they don’t view it as a an extreme game-threatening urgency. Again, if it can be fixed at all.

~EW

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

AliamRationem.5172:

Thus it IS an exploit. Whether or not it needs to be fixed is entirely up to ANet.

If it can be fixed. There seems to be a lot of assumptions through this thread that it is an easy fix. What if it’s not? What if it’s an expensive and time consuming fix that they don’t have the budget allocated to fix when there are game-interrupting bugs that have higher urgency?

It is a popular enough exploit that I think it is safe to assume they’re monitoring the impact, especially using information they can gather that we can’t or wouldn’t know to look at. I think that if there were a significant urgency, a severe threat to the game’s economy, that it would take a higher priority to fix. That they haven’t changed it yet tells us only that they don’t view it as a an extreme game-threatening urgency. Again, if it can be fixed at all.

~EW

I have no idea what the overall impact of this exploit is, what it would take to fix it, or what ANet intends to do about it. I was simply observing that we’re playing a lot of mental gymnastics here to justify what is very clearly not the intended design. If it were intended, they would have just given you 10 times the loot (or whatever you get from multi-map) as the reward for Tarir and called it a day, right?

Somehow I expect that most of us are able to recognize that if they had done that it would have represented an obvious imbalance.

AliamRationem.5172:

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

AliamRationem.5172:

Thus it IS an exploit. Whether or not it needs to be fixed is entirely up to ANet.

If it can be fixed. There seems to be a lot of assumptions through this thread that it is an easy fix. What if it’s not? What if it’s an expensive and time consuming fix that they don’t have the budget allocated to fix when there are game-interrupting bugs that have higher urgency?

It is a popular enough exploit that I think it is safe to assume they’re monitoring the impact, especially using information they can gather that we can’t or wouldn’t know to look at. I think that if there were a significant urgency, a severe threat to the game’s economy, that it would take a higher priority to fix. That they haven’t changed it yet tells us only that they don’t view it as a an extreme game-threatening urgency. Again, if it can be fixed at all.

~EW

I have no idea what the overall impact of this exploit is, what it would take to fix it, or what ANet intends to do about it. I was simply observing that we’re playing a lot of mental gymnastics here to justify what is very clearly not the intended design.

I understand that. I was using your comment as a spring-board for mine… not to call you out on anything. I do agree with your comments. I apologize if I accidentally indicated anything else.

~EW

If multimap needs to be nerfed then that also means SW chest farming also needs to be nerfed. Why? You make significantly more gold in SW chest farming since it’s more consistent. You’re getting bags mindlessly zerging that should only be coming from completing events & killing champs. Farming has always been a key aspect of a MMORPG game since it’s a driving factor in keeping players in-game. I’ve been playing MMORPG for a dozen years now and that’s what I’ve seen. Thus far, there aren’t too many ways to farm efficiently in GW2.

AliamRationem.5172:

Seera.5916:

Fluffball.8307:

Why are the mods merging threads on this when they delete or ban threads on other minor offenses???

Because maybe ANet has decided that while at the time it started was an exploit, but ANet’s decided that the multi-map looting isn’t horrible to the game that they will allow it to continue. Which would make the Auric Basin multi-mapping emergent game play.

If it was an exploit, it would have been fixed or been attempted to be fixed in the last patch. Especially with the patch adding salvage all which makes it less annoying to get tons of loot.

Wrong. ANet’s decision on whether or when to make a change has no bearing on whether or not it is an exploit. An exploit is simply utilizing game mechanics in an unintended way. It doesn’t necessarily indicate that it must be “fixed”. Some exploits are rather minor and just become part of the way the game is played.

Again, there is no sound argument we can make to explain why they would have intentionally designed this one event so that players may participate once, and then receive the rewards multiple times. Thus it IS an exploit. Whether or not it needs to be fixed is entirely up to ANet.

so your argument is “if anet didnt intend it its a exploit” you do realize every class has mechanics anet didnt intend on it being used the way it is right? you know theres tons of these so called “exploits” by your definition. difference is this doesnt fit the actual definition of exploit. there is no unfair advantage. im sorry you want to sell your mats at a much higher price but we dont.

sophiewhite.3149:

AliamRationem.5172:

Wrong. ANet’s decision on whether or when to make a change has no bearing on whether or not it is an exploit. An exploit is simply utilizing game mechanics in an unintended way. It doesn’t necessarily indicate that it must be “fixed”. Some exploits are rather minor and just become part of the way the game is played.

Again, there is no sound argument we can make to explain why they would have intentionally designed this one event so that players may participate once, and then receive the rewards multiple times. Thus it IS an exploit. Whether or not it needs to be fixed is entirely up to ANet.

so your argument is “if anet didnt intend it its a exploit” you do realize every class has mechanics anet didnt intend on it being used the way it is right? you know theres tons of these so called “exploits” by your definition. difference is this doesnt fit the actual definition of exploit. there is no unfair advantage. im sorry you want to sell your mats at a much higher price but we dont.

According to the all-knowing Wikipedia, an exploit is “the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game’s designers.” There’s nothing in that about an ‘unfair advantage’ that you seem to have predicated your understanding of an exploit on… just an advantage unintended by the game’s designers.

Using multi-mapping to loot multiple times the rewards allocated for a single event definitely fits that definition of an exploit.

Just because some exploits aren’t given much priority to address, doesn’t make them any less an exploit. ANet has limited resources to allocate to a game that has a constant influx of bugs and exploits, and must triage where they allocate those resources.

~EW

P.S. Feel free to use some other definition of an exploit to defend your position if you will. I only used Wikipedia because it was an easy place to grab the quoted definition.

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

sophiewhite.3149:

AliamRationem.5172:

Wrong. ANet’s decision on whether or when to make a change has no bearing on whether or not it is an exploit. An exploit is simply utilizing game mechanics in an unintended way. It doesn’t necessarily indicate that it must be “fixed”. Some exploits are rather minor and just become part of the way the game is played.

Again, there is no sound argument we can make to explain why they would have intentionally designed this one event so that players may participate once, and then receive the rewards multiple times. Thus it IS an exploit. Whether or not it needs to be fixed is entirely up to ANet.

so your argument is “if anet didnt intend it its a exploit” you do realize every class has mechanics anet didnt intend on it being used the way it is right? you know theres tons of these so called “exploits” by your definition. difference is this doesnt fit the actual definition of exploit. there is no unfair advantage. im sorry you want to sell your mats at a much higher price but we dont.

According to the all-knowing Wikipedia, an exploit is “the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game’s designers.” There’s nothing in that about an ‘unfair advantage’ that you seem to have predicated your understanding of an exploit on… just an advantage unintended by the game’s designers.

Using multi-mapping to loot multiple times the rewards allocated for a single event definitely fits that definition of an exploit.

Just because some exploits aren’t given much priority to address, doesn’t make them any less an exploit. ANet has limited resources to allocate to a game that has a constant influx of bugs and exploits, and must triage where they allocate those resources.

~EW

P.S. Feel free to use some other definition of an exploit to defend your position if you will. I only used Wikipedia because it was an easy place to grab the quoted definition.

Wikipedia also states that sometimes exploits become emergent gameplay when the game’s manufacturer decides that the originally unintended behavior is just fine for the game. And the moment they do that, it ceases to be an exploit.

While there has been no explicit post saying otherwise, there is a high chance it’s not considered an exploit any longer by ANet and instead emergent game play:

1. This thread is still running. Threads pertaining to exploits typically get sent to the trashcan if not locked pretty quickly.

2. The last patch did nothing to fix it. Given the posts related to this were merged, ANet’s fully aware of the situation. They would have put in something to fix the issue in the last patch if it was truly a problem. The once per day rule would likely have been the easiest measure to put into place if only temporarily.

3. The last patch made it easier to deal with the massive amounts of loot obtained via salvage all. Alone not telling but when combined with #2 it’s telling. It would have likely been fairly easy to pull “salvage all” from the patch if they really needed to.

Seera.5916:

Wikipedia also states that sometimes exploits become emergent gameplay when the game’s manufacturer decides that the originally unintended behavior is just fine for the game. And the moment they do that, it ceases to be an exploit.

While there has been no explicit post saying otherwise, there is a high chance it’s not considered an exploit any longer by ANet and instead emergent game play:

1. This thread is still running. Threads pertaining to exploits typically get sent to the trashcan if not locked pretty quickly.

2. The last patch did nothing to fix it. Given the posts related to this were merged, ANet’s fully aware of the situation. They would have put in something to fix the issue in the last patch if it was truly a problem. The once per day rule would likely have been the easiest measure to put into place if only temporarily.

3. The last patch made it easier to deal with the massive amounts of loot obtained via salvage all. Alone not telling but when combined with #2 it’s telling. It would have likely been fairly easy to pull “salvage all” from the patch if they really needed to.

Emergent game play, the longevity of this thread, the last patch, and a false correlation between salvage kits and AB are your goal posts that convince you there’s a “high chance it’s not considered an exploit any longer.” You grasp at thin straws and none of what you’ve presented in your quote above is evidence that it is no longer an considered an exploit by ANet; it is conjecture and assumptions easily picked apart. AB multi-mapping is an exploit until they state it is otherwise. If in time they feel that it should be considered emergent game play, then good for them…. but that’s their decision and their goal posts to set.

~EW

Is it not, “conjecture and assumption,” very reasonable and likely in my opinion, that it is an exploit? At least until Anet makes a statement as to the matter of design intention?

I dislike it. Find it abhorrent in fact, but dont feel that I can speak for Anet in declaring their intent (even if I do have an opinion on the matter).

Ashen.2907:

Is it not, “conjecture and assumption,” very reasonable and likely in my opinion, that it is an exploit? At least until Anet makes a statement as to the matter of design intention?

I dislike it. Find it abhorrent in fact, but dont feel that I can speak for Anet in declaring their intent (even if I do have an opinion on the matter).

Given how they typically do gate rewards to world bosses, the fact that multi-map looting is possible was likely unintended and therefore at least initially an exploit.

@EphemeralWallaby: I’ve also never said it wasn’t an exploit. Just that there’s plenty of good evidence to support that it’s no longer an exploit.

What evidence do you have to say that it’s still an exploit?

Shivan.9438:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Exploit

“ArenaNet defines an exploit as any deliberate action that provides an unfair advantage over other players or otherwise hurts the game, community, or economy; it does not matter whether the exploit is a hack or makes use of a mechanic (bugged or otherwise) within the game.”

Multi-mapping is an exploit. People are manipulating how maps stay open and close in order to get loot. Manipulating the server this way is indeed and exploit. Loot or not.

Re-read the unbolded part of your own cut/paste again. It doesn’t matter if people manipulate the way the game works or server unless they gain an unfair advantage over other players or hurt the game or economy. AB Multi is not unfair, anyone can take part. It does not hurt the game and it is good for the economy by driving down prices for demand items, meaning even those that do not take part are gaining an advantage, so in reality, its very positive for the game in general.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Shivan.9438:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Exploit

“ArenaNet defines an exploit as any deliberate action that provides an unfair advantage over other players or otherwise hurts the game, community, or economy; it does not matter whether the exploit is a hack or makes use of a mechanic (bugged or otherwise) within the game.”

Multi-mapping is an exploit. People are manipulating how maps stay open and close in order to get loot. Manipulating the server this way is indeed and exploit. Loot or not.

Re-read the unbolded part of your own cut/paste again. It doesn’t matter if people manipulate the way the game works or server unless they gain an unfair advantage over other players or hurt the game or economy. AB Multi is not unfair, anyone can take part. It does not hurt the game and it is good for the economy by driving down prices for demand items, meaning even those that do not take part are gaining an advantage, so in reality, its very positive for the game in general.

Depends entirely on what their definition of unfair is. One could argue that multi-mapping is unfair because it gives a lot more mats to players who do it than to those who don’t. More loot = more gold.

It’s definitely complicated since the extra loot does lower the equilibrium price for several mats. But whether or not that outweighs the advantage is unknown to anyone but ANet.

All we players can do is take their action or their inaction and take our best guess based on that information.

Seera.5916:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Shivan.9438:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Exploit

“ArenaNet defines an exploit as any deliberate action that provides an unfair advantage over other players or otherwise hurts the game, community, or economy; it does not matter whether the exploit is a hack or makes use of a mechanic (bugged or otherwise) within the game.”

Multi-mapping is an exploit. People are manipulating how maps stay open and close in order to get loot. Manipulating the server this way is indeed and exploit. Loot or not.

Re-read the unbolded part of your own cut/paste again. It doesn’t matter if people manipulate the way the game works or server unless they gain an unfair advantage over other players or hurt the game or economy. AB Multi is not unfair, anyone can take part. It does not hurt the game and it is good for the economy by driving down prices for demand items, meaning even those that do not take part are gaining an advantage, so in reality, its very positive for the game in general.

Depends entirely on what their definition of unfair is. One could argue that multi-mapping is unfair because it gives a lot more mats to players who do it than to those who don’t. More loot = more gold.

It’s definitely complicated since the extra loot does lower the equilibrium price for several mats. But whether or not that outweighs the advantage is unknown to anyone but ANet.

All we players can do is take their action or their inaction and take our best guess based on that information.

By that logic, doing events in Cursed Shore for loot is unfair because its better than standing in LA doing nothing.

If you want to make as much gold as possible in a given time frame, you can choose to do AB multi, if not then you can do something else. There is always a best way to make gold. AB Multi just happens to also drive down prices so much that its also a benefit to those who choose to not participate in it.