Do you think Raids in GW2 were a bad idea?
Raids are my favorite content in HOT. I don’t think they need an easy mode – just learn the fight. Wing 2 is hard right now because not everyone knows the encounters.
This is something that I don’t get. This raid content will never be made redundant by dev fiat in the way that raids in other games do. Why spoil it with the now-now-now attitude of easy mode fights when you have literally all the time in GW2 to learn it?
Never say never.
This content was put on the regular map with a fairly large footprint. Now with new raids that will come out they can do one of 3 things.
1) make more maps covering more of the PvE area
2) wipe out the old raid and put in the new on the same old map. Which, imo, is very possible. Once any new raid is in, any old raids will be essentially abandoned. How many raiders are going to go back and do old content when there are new raids to do. They might as well clean off the area rather than have old content sitting there essentially abandoned.
3) have variable portals
Be careful what you ask for
ANet may give it to you.
ANet may give it to you.
(edited by Just a flesh wound.3589)
2) wipe out the old raid and put in the new on the same old map. Which, imo, is very possible. Once any new raid is in, any old raids will be essentially abandoned. How many raiders are going to go back and do old content when there is are new raids to do. They might as well clean off the area rather than have old content sitting there essentially abandoned.
They can add an explorable version of the raid, with a couple of events to do some researchs and such if they want, and then place that same raid as a “Fractal Raid” or something.
Anredhal Amethyst – Lain Amethyst – Orss Jerre
2) wipe out the old raid and put in the new on the same old map. Which, imo, is very possible. Once any new raid is in, any old raids will be essentially abandoned. How many raiders are going to go back and do old content when there is are new raids to do. They might as well clean off the area rather than have old content sitting there essentially abandoned.
- How will they know when the last player who wants it has gotten what they want from the earlier raid? Or do you think they would go with the leading edge? I’m not sure that would be well-received, though it would certainly cement the notion that raids are only for the leading-edge players.
- There is (hopefully) a plan for what they want to put where on maps. I have a hard time believing that there are not enough dead areas on maps to put any number of raids. Think fringe areas.
- At the rate they’re going, 7 zones (8 if you count the Zephyr Sanctum cliffs, which are not currently accessible) have been added in 3.5 years. Also, we’re looking at about 1 raid a year. At that rate, it’s going to be an exceedingly long time before they run out of maps.
- Finally, remember how popular ANet removing content has been? Once bitten, twice shy.
They mentioned 5 devs, but it takes more than 5 designers to create the raids you see. They were smart in not mentioning the involvement of art, graphics, animation, lore, programming, QA, etc.. resources. But if you watched their most recent Guild chat, you see the guy mentioning “the collaboration” of teams and hard work multiple times throughout the live stream. So you know it’s more than just 5 people that created the raids in GW2. This isn’t to mention the amount of resources they’re pouring into creating Legendary armor, which would be exclusive to raiders only.
Raids generally suck a lot of resources for the little amount of actual content they provide…content in which will be played by a small % of the playerbase. This is the case with all other MMORPG’s, no reason it would be any different here. I normally don’t mind seeing raids given adequate resources & smart resource allocation. But I see the dire situation WvW is in, and now PvE players demanding more content because they’re tired of grinding the same 4 maps since HoT was a short expansion in the first place.
Well they said that there were 5 devs currently working on raids, 120 working on the current game (probably that these 5 are part of the 120), 70 on the second expansions and a core team of 30 working with everybody.
That 30 men core team is probably what you talked about : art, graphics, animation, lore, programming, QA, etc. Let’s say that for the argument that all 30 work exclusively on raid. That mean 35 people out of 220 people would be working on raid, which is about 15% of the dev working force. And we know that not all 30 of the core team work full time on raid. So the maximum % of resources Anet is putting on raid is lower than 15%, proably something like 5-10%.
How is that too much resource because from what i see, we have about 5-10% of the population actively raiding. At least in my guild it’s around 10-15%. I could get on board with you if like 30% of the devs were working on raid, but that’s not the case. Unless you are saying that Anet is totally full of kitten and that the number they provided us with are lies.
Thaddeauz [xQCx]- QC GUILD
2) wipe out the old raid and put in the new on the same old map. Which, imo, is very possible. Once any new raid is in, any old raids will be essentially abandoned. How many raiders are going to go back and do old content when there is are new raids to do. They might as well clean off the area rather than have old content sitting there essentially abandoned.
- How will they know when the last player who wants it has gotten what they want from the earlier raid? Or do you think they would go with the leading edge? I’m not sure that would be well-received, though it would certainly cement the notion that raids are only for the leading-edge players.
- There is (hopefully) a plan for what they want to put where on maps. I have a hard time believing that there are not enough dead areas on maps to put any number of raids. Think fringe areas.
- At the rate they’re going, 7 zones (8 if you count the Zephyr Sanctum cliffs, which are not currently accessible) have been added in 3.5 years. Also, we’re looking at about 1 raid a year. At that rate, it’s going to be an exceedingly long time before they run out of maps.
- Finally, remember how popular ANet removing content has been? Once bitten, twice shy.
Will that many people be doing old raids for old rewards when new raids are there to be done?
I was just saying to the person I responded to, don’t be too sure that ANet won’t wipe out old raids. Maybe they’ll have a variable portal like the guild hall portals for the current raid and X number of old raids but if old raids are sitting there essentially abandoned then it’s quite possible they’ll be cleared.
Be careful what you ask for
ANet may give it to you.
ANet may give it to you.
(edited by Just a flesh wound.3589)
Raids have like 5 developers working on them. They said so as much in an AMA. The lack of casual content is not because of raids.
I’m not sure this is accurate. It may be that raids have a permanent staff of five people, five who’s job it is to work on raids all day, every day, but I have to believe that they borrow people from the “staff pool” to create content as well, environment modelers, artists designing gear that only drops in raids, creature creators, effect programmers, etc. If so, they would be taking those staffers’ time away from other potential activities.
If they truly are the work of only five people, start to finish, then these are clearly the best five people to work at ANet, and their talents could be spend accomplishing similarly incredible feats elsewhere in the game.
Of course – I expected as much. Even if they dedicated 1 person to Raids – you people would still claim they should use that one person somewhere else.
The “this should not be a thing because I don’t like it” never ends..
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
To extend the life of a set of raids and satisfy both casuals and hard core raiders, maybe they could put in an ez mode form a raid cycle behind.
That is, once this set of raid wings is done and there is a new set of raids coming out, add the ez mode set then on the old raids for casuals to do and see the content, with suitably reduced rewards. Repeat with each new set of raid wings.
Be careful what you ask for
ANet may give it to you.
ANet may give it to you.
To extend the life of a set of raids and satisfy both casuals and hard core raiders, maybe they could put in an ez mode form a raid cycle behind.
That is, once this set of raid wings is done and there is a new set of raids coming out, add the ez mode set then on the old raids for casuals to do and see the content, with suitably reduced rewards. Repeat with each new set of raid wings.
Yep. Exactly my thoughts. Unless of course they have some special plan to keep the older Raid wings relevant even after new ones appear, otherwise adding a reduced version when very few people are running them is a good choice.
To extend the life of a set of raids and satisfy both casuals and hard core raiders, maybe they could put in an ez mode form a raid cycle behind.
That is, once this set of raid wings is done and there is a new set of raids coming out, add the ez mode set then on the old raids for casuals to do and see the content, with suitably reduced rewards. Repeat with each new set of raid wings.
Yep. Exactly my thoughts. Unless of course they have some special plan to keep the older Raid wings relevant even after new ones appear, otherwise adding a reduced version when very few people are running them is a good choice.
No power creep from gear treadmill plus requirements for legendary armor means that older raids should remain relevant for longer than usual imo.
To extend the life of a set of raids and satisfy both casuals and hard core raiders, maybe they could put in an ez mode form a raid cycle behind.
That is, once this set of raid wings is done and there is a new set of raids coming out, add the ez mode set then on the old raids for casuals to do and see the content, with suitably reduced rewards. Repeat with each new set of raid wings.
Yep. Exactly my thoughts. Unless of course they have some special plan to keep the older Raid wings relevant even after new ones appear, otherwise adding a reduced version when very few people are running them is a good choice.
No power creep from gear treadmill plus requirements for legendary armor means that older raids should remain relevant for longer than usual imo.
I agree. And the rewards are ok-ish or can be adjusted in the future.
Older content gets easier as players become more experienced with it. Remember dungeons and teq? Hard when it first came out, easy now. Don’t call for a nerf or easy mode so early. Wing 1 is already starting to become that easy mode.
This is something that I don’t get. This raid content will never be made redundant by dev fiat in the way that raids in other games do. Why spoil it with the now-now-now attitude of easy mode fights when you have literally all the time in GW2 to learn it?
Time to learn it has nothing to do with anything.
Of course – I expected as much. Even if they dedicated 1 person to Raids – you people would still claim they should use that one person somewhere else.
The “this should not be a thing because I don’t like it” never ends..
If one person was capable of creating the raids we’ve seen so far, then yes, his talents would be wasted working on raids and he should be working on something else.
He is clearly some sort of wizard with an army of coding brooms.
Older content gets easier as players become more experienced with it. Remember dungeons and teq? Hard when it first came out, easy now. Don’t call for a nerf or easy mode so early. Wing 1 is already starting to become that easy mode.
I call for an easy mode not out of impatience, but out of an understanding that I will NEVER, in my life, appreciate the current difficulty level of the raids. There will never come a time, even decades down the line, in which I will enjoy playing raids at their current difficulty level.
But note that I am not asking that the current raids be nerfed or touched in any way, they are not for me and I’m fine with that. All I’m asking for is an alternative that would include the elements I do like about the raids, without the parts that I will never like.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
(edited by Ohoni.6057)
Time to learn it has nothing to do with anything.
When arguments are made based on completion rates, which they commonly are, time vs relevancy length has everything to do with it.
Trust me, I’m very familiar with how raids work.
I call for an easy mode not out of impatience, but out of an understanding that I will NEVER, in my life, appreciate the current difficulty level of the raids.
Then what do you appreciate about the raids?
Nalhadia – Kaineng
2) wipe out the old raid and put in the new on the same old map. Which, imo, is very possible. Once any new raid is in, any old raids will be essentially abandoned. How many raiders are going to go back and do old content when there is are new raids to do. They might as well clean off the area rather than have old content sitting there essentially abandoned.
- How will they know when the last player who wants it has gotten what they want from the earlier raid? Or do you think they would go with the leading edge? I’m not sure that would be well-received, though it would certainly cement the notion that raids are only for the leading-edge players.
- There is (hopefully) a plan for what they want to put where on maps. I have a hard time believing that there are not enough dead areas on maps to put any number of raids. Think fringe areas.
- At the rate they’re going, 7 zones (8 if you count the Zephyr Sanctum cliffs, which are not currently accessible) have been added in 3.5 years. Also, we’re looking at about 1 raid a year. At that rate, it’s going to be an exceedingly long time before they run out of maps.
- Finally, remember how popular ANet removing content has been? Once bitten, twice shy.
Will that many people be doing old raids for old rewards when new raids are there to be done?
I was just saying to the person I responded to, don’t be too sure that ANet won’t wipe out old raids. Maybe they’ll have a variable portal like the guild hall portals for the current raid and X number of old raids but if old raids are sitting there essentially abandoned then it’s quite possible they’ll be cleared.
Well, one never knows what ANet might do.
Theoretically, with no stat progression, old raids need not become obsolete. If the currency dropped remains desirable, I could see dedicated raiders doing more than just the current three wings.
You are familiar with how the raids you enjoy work to further your enjoyment, and that of people like you. You seem to have no interest in discussing the views of people not like you.
No, I understand how raids work. I’ve done them for years, at almost all levels of play.
And yeah I know, “you don’t agree with me so you are disqualified because X!” I’ve done this dance before. Sorry for having an informed opinion. At the very least honor the argument as though I were playing devil’s advocate instead of these baseless ad hominems.
Based on what I’ve seen, I think the settings are really interesting, and they present a compelling narrative.
You can get all that narrative on youtube, or by going into a friend’s instance after they clear the raid.
Of the gameplay itself, I really like the mechanics, I just don’t like the reliance on perfection. I don’t like that failing to properly exectute the mechanics at any phase in the battle results in complete failure.
I understand that some people do enjoy that aspect, so I am in no way talking about removing it from the base version, I would just prefer to play a version where you can attempt to overcome those mechanics, but that failure is recoverable, that you can stumble and continue rather than faceplanting and having to start from the beginning. And again, I recognize that this gameplay would not satisfy many of those who currently enjoy raids, and they would never need to participate in it.
So basically you enjoy the mechanics despite the fact that you don’t like the mechanics.
Toothless versions of these encounters do not work. Raid groups are already clearing bosses while completely ignoring key mechanics of the fights. If a raid can “stumble and continue” past every single mechanic then there isn’t a raid boss, there’s a loot pinata. And no, beyond individual deaths the mechanics are not so hard that you cannot endure the occasional stumble- and if you’re failing the key mechanics that you can’t dodge you are making serious mistakes either personally or in your strategy.
Nalhadia – Kaineng
Raids are bad, raids are boring, and GW2 took all the worst ideas from other game’s raids and used them all here.
No, I understand how raids work. I’ve done them for years, at almost all levels of play.
Again, you understand how raids work from your perspective, which is apparently meaningless when applied to people with a different perspective than you have.
Think of it like this. You are coming to me and saying “I understand how baseball works, I’ve been going to games for years!” And that much is true, you would understand how and why baseball is something you enjoy, in that scenario. But if someone offers me a ticket to a baseball game, it’d better come with a cyanide tablet. The things that you might like about baseball bore me to tears, the exact same things.
So my point is, the way to get more people to do raids has nothing to do with “fixing” the people who aren’t currently doing raids. There is nothing wrong with those people, they just enjoy different things than you do. The solution has to involve providing a gaming experience that engaged what those players DO enjoy.
So basically you enjoy the mechanics despite the fact that you don’t like the mechanics.
I said what I mean, and it’s different than your interpretation, so maybe reread it. You claim to be a fan of repeating things until it finally sinks in, give it a shot here. Just keep rereading that paragraph you quoted until you can start to envision a genuinely reasonable stance on the issue that differs from your own.
Toothless versions of these encounters do not work. Raid groups are already clearing bosses while completely ignoring key mechanics of the fights. If a raid can “stumble and continue” past every single mechanic then there isn’t a raid boss, there’s a loot pinata.
Which is why the quantity of loot involved would be less. Less risk, less reward. We get that.
and if you’re failing the key mechanics that you can’t dodge you are making serious mistakes either personally or in your strategy.
Yeah, I know that. That’s the problem. What I want is for that to not matter. You see how the existing system will never fit that goal?
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
I think it is no secret at this point that I want raids to be marginalized as much as possible in terms of developing time and focus, no matter how many casual content is already there or how few developers work on them.
I personally would settle at this point for an in game video showing me what is happening in raids in terms of cinematics and get over with it after wing 3 is out. The teaser on the HP of Anet is sorely dissapointing in terms of presentation, but the white mantle is a faction I always had an interest in.
I dunno how else to interpret “quantity of loot should be less” and “what i want is for that (serious mistakes) to not matter”.
Well, I can’t tell you how to interpret things, but if it were me, and someone were to tell me “quantity of loot should be less,” I would take that to mean something along the lines of “the amount of loot they would recieve would be _less,”_ rather than “still get the same loot.”
And if someone told me “what i want is for that (serious mistakes) to not matter,” it would not necesarilly imply that the person wanted to “ignore” the core mechanics, just that the cost of failing to appropriately manage those effects would be relatively low.
Think of it like airsoft guns. They shoot little rubber pellets. Some people enjoy running around in the woods and shooting at each other with them as if they were real guns. Now you’re right, they could shoot at each other with live ammo, and I’m sure they would learn much faster than shooting pellets at each other, but most find the pellet guns a lower pressure situation. Now because these pellets are mostly non-lethal, the players could, if they choose, just run around like maniacs taking dozens of them to the face and it would only sting a bit. OR, they chould choose to take it fairly seriously, trying to avoid the pellets as if they were lethal bullets, but if they happen to get hit, it’s a lot less messy to clean up.
That’s what I’m talking about. I want to play the easy raid as if it were the real thing, I want to try to avoid incoming attacks as if they were the real thing, but if I screw up, I don’t want it to lead to a wipe and reset, I want the fight to continue on for the most part. If other players want to just yolo it, that’s fine to, that’s their choice. I don’t think it should be easy to yolo, it should be possible to fail if the group is entirely ignoring the mechanics, but if they mostly pay attention most of the time then it should work out, rather than the current system where you must pay attention every time or it resets.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
You want to know what’s awesome? There are very few mechanics that actually cause a raid-wide wipe unless you’re talking Sabetha or Matthais. Seriously.
Your issue is you refuse to practice the fights and perfect the few mechanics that are tossed your way. Everyone has a job. Put in a dozen attempts. You keep dying to something. Address that and fix it. You’re taking the easy way out.
Comparing raids to zerg-fests and live ammunition to airsoft is hilarious. Sorry guy, if you don’t do the time, you…wont do the crime? What no that’s not right…
Find a guild man/group man. You’re wasting your time here. Literally. Go post on every recruitment forum. Go apply to 10 guilds. Do you need me to go out and find these guilds for you? Do you even have a fully optimized character and an alt?
You want to know what’s awesome? There are very few mechanics that actually cause a raid-wide wipe unless you’re talking Sabetha or Matthais. Seriously.
Your issue is you refuse to practice the fights and perfect the few mechanics that are tossed your way. Everyone has a job. Put in a dozen attempts. You keep dying to something. Address that and fix it. You’re taking the easy way out.
Comparing raids to zerg-fests and live ammunition to airsoft is hilarious. Sorry guy, if you don’t do the time, you…wont do the crime? What no that’s not right…
Find a guild man/group man. You’re wasting your time here. Literally. Go post on every recruitment forum. Go apply to 10 guilds. Do you need me to go out and find these guilds for you? Do you even have a fully optimized character and an alt?
I have fully optimized characters and alts. I have the skill and ability to raid should I choose to do so. I don’t want to do so. I don’t enjoy the experience enough to devote major time to it. I’m sure I’m not the only person who came to this game to avoid raid centric games, or games where not raiding makes you a second class citizen.
So now, having the skill to raid, and the ability to raid, but not enjoying raiding, I don’t want to see rewards that give gameplay advantage locked behind raids. I could grind away at raids to get legendary armor, and yes, I’d really like to have armor where I can change stats, but if I’m forced to raid to do it, I’ll dislike the game, and it will increase my change of leaving.
Knowing that I can’t get this convenience unless I do something I don’t enjoy for hours really does make me want to leave the game. That’s how I feel about it.
I didn’t buy a game to work. I bought a game to have fun. Until now I could get the best gear in the game without doing something I didn’t enjoy for an extended period of time. Now I can’t.
That’s an issue for me and people like me.
You want to know what’s awesome? There are very few mechanics that actually cause a raid-wide wipe unless you’re talking Sabetha or Matthais. Seriously.
And yet I’ve spent dozens of attempts on these raid bosses and not completed one yet, so clearly something is causing a wipe. If you mean one single attack that is guaranteed to KO everyone at once, sure, you might be right, but that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about the attacks that might drop only some of the players, but in a way where the party cannot any longer pull out a win.
Your issue is you refuse to practice the fights and perfect the few mechanics that are tossed your way.
Yes. I’ve said as much, and then you’ve said “Your issue is you refuse to practice the fights and perfect the few mechanics that are tossed your way,” and then I’ve said yes, and then you’ve said “Your issue is you refuse to practice the fights and perfect the few mechanics that are tossed your way,” and then I’ve said yes, and we can keep that up all week but I honestly don’t consider it terribly productive.
Find a guild man/group man. You’re wasting your time here. Literally. Go post on every recruitment forum. Go apply to 10 guilds. Do you need me to go out and find these guilds for you? Do you even have a fully optimized character and an alt?
I have no interest in that. That is not the game I want to play. I keep explaining the game I do want to play, why do you keep ignoring the words that I tell you and go off on tangents about how I could instead do things that I have no interest in doing, and have said as much? I’m really starting to worry about you here.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
IMO raids were the step in the right direction. I was sceptical, but when I tried them, I saw that they were implemented perfectly. They bring incentive for the “old school” players or players who want something challenging to keep playing.
Another thing is that now it looks that all other features have been pushed back. I’m sure it’s not the real reason, since there’s a separate team working on them but it troubles me, how many people think this. Same with the esports. But that’s for another talk that doesn’t belong here.
By the way, can someone explain to me, why so many people are bothered with the fact that they are not good enough to complete the raid and don’t want to improve either? Don’t tell me that it’s because of the story. The story is not connected to the main story, it’s pretty simple – squad missing, you find out who captured them, defeat them, find out that they are someone from GW1. That’s it.
Raids are tough. Raids are difficult. It’s ok if you can’t complete them. I know that the last 3 years made many people get used to the content be easy. It’s still easy, only one fraction of it isn’t. It’s ok to not complete everything.
How the hell did I get here? So TLDR: Raids were a good idea that was very well implemented.
I am an engineer – a pianist of destruction! Now please go back to standing in my AOE.
http://wpwhendead.tumblr.com - a GW2 webcomic about a Charr and a Skritt
http://wpwhendead.tumblr.com - a GW2 webcomic about a Charr and a Skritt
You want to know what’s awesome? There are very few mechanics that actually cause a raid-wide wipe unless you’re talking Sabetha or Matthais. Seriously.
And yet I’ve spent dozens of attempts on these raid bosses and not completed one yet, so clearly something is causing a wipe. If you mean one single attack that is guaranteed to KO everyone at once, sure, you might be right, but that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about the attacks that might drop only some of the players, but in a way where the party cannot any longer pull out a win.
Your issue is you refuse to practice the fights and perfect the few mechanics that are tossed your way.
Yes. I’ve said as much, and then you’ve said “Your issue is you refuse to practice the fights and perfect the few mechanics that are tossed your way,” and then I’ve said yes, and then you’ve said “Your issue is you refuse to practice the fights and perfect the few mechanics that are tossed your way,” and then I’ve said yes, and we can keep that up all week but I honestly don’t consider it terribly productive.
Find a guild man/group man. You’re wasting your time here. Literally. Go post on every recruitment forum. Go apply to 10 guilds. Do you need me to go out and find these guilds for you? Do you even have a fully optimized character and an alt?
I have no interest in that. That is not the game I want to play. I keep explaining the game I do want to play, why do you keep ignoring the words that I tell you and go off on tangents about how I could instead do things that I have no interest in doing, and have said as much? I’m really starting to worry about you here.
There are people who like to raid who simply don’t get why other people don’t like it. Because they don’t understand, they try to guess why this might happen. It’s human nature. They can’t conceive of the fact that even some people who can beat this content don’t enjoy it for other reasons.
My entire reason for playing this game is a living breathing world, not challenging content, not boss fights, not repeating the same boss fight over and over again locked in time until I beat it. It’s not why I bought this game. I bought this game because I wanted a skyrim-like MMO. And for a long time, that’s what Guild Wars 2 provided and still provides in most of the game.
But as we move forward and raids are pushed, I feel like I’m being herded toward a different game than the one I bought. That’s really this issue.
Want legendary armor? Sure I do. But not enough to do something for hours I don’t feel like I’ll enjoy.
Well, I can’t tell you how to interpret things, but if it were me, and someone were to tell me “quantity of loot should be less,” I would take that to mean something along the lines of “the amount of loot they would recieve would be _less,”_ rather than “still get the same loot.”
“50 apples” compared to “5 apples” does not change the fact that apples are apples.
And if someone told me “what i want is for that (serious mistakes) to not matter,” it would not necesarilly imply that the person wanted to “ignore” the core mechanics, just that the cost of failing to appropriately manage those effects would be relatively low.
Relative to what and on what scale? Please less wishy washy. They could make them deal 1 less damage and the boss have 1 less HP they’d still be relatively low.
Whether you intend to ignore the mechanics or not, you’re not going to respect them.
Think of it like airsoft guns. They shoot little rubber pellets. Some people enjoy running around in the woods and shooting at each other with them as if they were real guns. Now you’re right, they could shoot at each other with live ammo, and I’m sure they would learn much faster than shooting pellets at each other, but most find the pellet guns a lower pressure situation. Now because these pellets are mostly non-lethal, the players could, if they choose, just run around like maniacs taking dozens of them to the face and it would only sting a bit. OR, they chould choose to take it fairly seriously, trying to avoid the pellets as if they were lethal bullets, but if they happen to get hit, it’s a lot less messy to clean up.
That’s what I’m talking about. I want to play the easy raid as if it were the real thing, I want to try to avoid incoming attacks as if they were the real thing, but if I screw up, I don’t want it to lead to a wipe and reset, I want the fight to continue on for the most part. If other players want to just yolo it, that’s fine to, that’s their choice. I don’t think it should be easy to yolo, it should be possible to fail if the group is entirely ignoring the mechanics, but if they mostly pay attention most of the time then it should work out, rather than the current system where you must pay attention every time or it resets.
It’s a video game. You don’t need to play double pretend.
So now, having the skill to raid, and the ability to raid, but not enjoying raiding, I don’t want to see rewards that give gameplay advantage locked behind raids. I could grind away at raids to get legendary armor, and yes, I’d really like to have armor where I can change stats, but if I’m forced to raid to do it, I’ll dislike the game, and it will increase my change of leaving.
By this do you mean specifically legendary armor or do you also mean the ascended trinkets with stat spreads that aren’t otherwise available in current content?
On the first, I’m pretty confident that they’ll be adding legendary armor to another part of the game, so you’ll have more than one option to get that. My chips are on WvW but it’s anybody’s guess.
On the second, totes agree. It’s silly that you can’t get that sort of thing through world content in some way. Maybe they’ll add them in the next patch if we’re lucky I suppose.
Want legendary armor? Sure I do. But not enough to do something for hours I don’t feel like I’ll enjoy.
You’re OCE right? I’m kinda wondering if I want to get into an OCE raidgroup but I don’t know how much of an issue it’ll be with latency.
Nalhadia – Kaineng
(edited by Sarrs.4831)
You can always go do what you enjoy and then buy the raids to get your legendary armor.
FOR THE GREEEEEEEEEEEEN
You can always go do what you enjoy and then buy the raids to get your legendary armor.
This is true. I can do that. I can enter into a non-supported transaction with other players, where if I get screwed over I don’t get a refund.
Not really why I play games. If you want to offer raids a unique reward, offer them really cool skins, not a quality of life feature that can only be gotten through raiding, because that’s problematical for me.
I have fully optimized characters and alts. I have the skill and ability to raid should I choose to do so. I don’t want to do so. I don’t enjoy the experience enough to devote major time to it. I’m sure I’m not the only person who came to this game to avoid raid centric games, or games where not raiding makes you a second class citizen.
So now, having the skill to raid, and the ability to raid, but not enjoying raiding, I don’t want to see rewards that give gameplay advantage locked behind raids. I could grind away at raids to get legendary armor, and yes, I’d really like to have armor where I can change stats, but if I’m forced to raid to do it, I’ll dislike the game, and it will increase my change of leaving.
Knowing that I can’t get this convenience unless I do something I don’t enjoy for hours really does make me want to leave the game. That’s how I feel about it.
I didn’t buy a game to work. I bought a game to have fun. Until now I could get the best gear in the game without doing something I didn’t enjoy for an extended period of time. Now I can’t.
That’s an issue for me and people like me.
Well, it’s a good thing you are not forced to raid? It is perfectly justified to offer unique rewards through a hard-core system. It’s amazing how entitled you feel about this subject.
If you can’t deal with this then that sucks. Anet made a business decision here. Obviously raids must attract more people then they deter.
(edited by Avarice.2791)
“50 apples” compared to “5 apples” does not change the fact that apples are apples.
No it does not, nor does 50 == 5. I checked.
Relative to what and on what scale? Please less wishy washy. They could make them deal 1 less damage and the boss have 1 less HP they’d still be relatively low.
Whether you intend to ignore the mechanics or not, you’re not going to respect them.
So you believe that I could reasonably have meant “I do not like the current damage scaling, but if the boss had 1 less HP then I’d be totally fine with it?” That seems like a likely sentiment to you? I don’t really have the data to be overly specific on details, but I’d know it when I saw it. I would want the threat level to be somewhere in the range of a low level Fractal. If you just ignore mechanics and “stand in the fire” then you’re likely to die, but if you pay at least half attention and avoid most of the attacks then you should stay on your feet. And if a few members of the group do fall, the rest of the group can still pull out a win.
I don’t want to have to “respect” the enemy’s attacks, I just want to know that they are there, and decide for myself what to do about them.
It’s a video game. You don’t need to play double pretend.
And you don’t need to tell me how I should enjoy playing.
On the first, I’m pretty confident that they’ll be adding legendary armor to another part of the game, so you’ll have more than one option to get that. My chips are on WvW but it’s anybody’s guess.
1. They haven’t announced anything yet, so it’d likely be further out.
2. WvW would be off the table because that’s not PvE content.
3. Even if some legendary armor is available someplace, it wouldn’t be the same legendary armor, and might not look as cool, although that would be impossible to judge until they release the models.
You can always go do what you enjoy and then buy the raids to get your legendary armor.
That is a horrible philosophy for the game. You should NEVER have to buy your way through content to get past a difficulty gate, there should always be routes built into the game for overcoming it yourself, taking a slower but less challenging path.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
That is a horrible philosophy for the game. You should NEVER have to buy your way through content to get past a difficulty gate, there should always be routes built into the game for overcoming it yourself, taking a slower but less challenging path.
Setting the difficulty to “easy” is not overcoming anything other than a checkbox.
Nalhadia – Kaineng
You should NEVER have to buy your way through content to get past a difficulty gate, there should always be routes built into the game for overcoming it yourself, taking a slower but less challenging path.
Or you know, you can wait until it becomes much easier without changing anything. Dungeons were considered hard at release, some even for months after, especially Arah. Then Fractals and Aetherpath were also considered “hard”. Then gradually they all became much easier. Give it some time, Raids are still new
Setting the difficulty to “easy” is not overcoming anything other than a checkbox.
That is not for you to decide for other players. If another player believes that easy mode is fun and feels rewarding, then it is his right to choose it. You do not have to choose it for yourself, and should not make the choice for others.
Or you know, you can wait until it becomes much easier without changing anything. Dungeons were considered hard at release, some even for months after, especially Arah. Then Fractals and Aetherpath were also considered “hard”. Then gradually they all became much easier. Give it some time, Raids are still new
Dungeons only become “easier” when either A: there is power creep, which I don’t expect in any significant fashion anytime soon, or B: when people learn outright exploits that ANet decides not to patch. I kind of doubt that they would leave exploits in on raids, since they seem to really want them to be hard, and if they did allow exploits to stick around then it would trivialize the “hardcore cred” you guys seem to value far more than any “easy mode” ever would.
If you just mean that more players will learn the mechanics and perform them more efficiently, without actually exploiting anything, then no, you’re wrong. It would help, it would reduce the overall chance of failure at least a little, but that alone would not make the content approachable enough.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Dungeons only become “easier” when either A: there is power creep, which I don’t expect in any significant fashion anytime soon, or B: when people learn outright exploits that ANet decides not to patch. I kind of doubt that they would leave exploits in on raids, since they seem to really want them to be hard, and if they did allow exploits to stick around then it would trivialize the “hardcore cred” you guys seem to value far more than any “easy mode” ever would.
That’s false. Especially for Arah the fight with Lupicus was hard for a while after release but it got to a much easier point before the introduction of Ascended gear (power creep) and before the cheese ways of killing him (reflecting on the wall). And the same can be said for many other encounters too
You are underestimating the ability of a playerbase as a whole to figure out better team compositions, better tactics and better builds to overcome challenging encounters. And in the process it makes the encounters easier for everyone else, without powercreep or exploits.
That’s false. Especially for Arah the fight with Lupicus was hard for a while after release but it got to a much easier point before the introduction of Ascended gear (power creep) and before the cheese ways of killing him (reflecting on the wall). And the same can be said for many other encounters too
And to what would you attribute them “getting easier?” I assume you mean “for people who have never played it before,” since that would be the only metric that would have any value to this discussion.
I’ve heard people say that a lot of that was down to launch players having no idea how their own characters worked, and having to figure out the basic mechanics of the game itself. We can assume that players are well aware of those things in GW2 by now, so those will not really shift significantly over time. I don’t see any significant advances arising out of player tactics, and if so, they will mainly just help the “six man” or speedrunning teams to do slightly better at that, and be pretty much zero help to any new players trying it on their own merits.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
And to what would you attribute them “getting easier?”
How about skill? Routine? Learning the fight? Things that you obviously don’t want to do
I am an engineer – a pianist of destruction! Now please go back to standing in my AOE.
http://wpwhendead.tumblr.com - a GW2 webcomic about a Charr and a Skritt
http://wpwhendead.tumblr.com - a GW2 webcomic about a Charr and a Skritt
How about skill? Routine? Learning the fight? Things that you obviously don’t want to do
Right, that’s my point, that’s not the raid getting any easier, that’s just learning it better through practice, which would have nothing to do with the discussion at hand. I want a version at a difficulty level where a party who’s never done it before, in non-meta gearing and builds, but at least a few of them have watched some videos and read some strats, will be able to enter the raid, and maybe fail a few attempts but still beat a boss or two on their first night. Then, as they continue to do it. they get better and better from there, just as with standard dungeons, but not this standard “oh, expect to spend 6-12 hours on the first boss trying to get the mechanics down, and then you’ll be able to beat him most of the time in only an hour or two.”
I’m well aware that the raiders have no interest in that sort of experience, any more than I have any interest in the way they enjoy raiding, which is why I suggest it as an alternative version, rather than a straight up nerf.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Right, that’s my point, that’s not the raid getting any easier, that’s just learning it better through practice, which would have nothing to do with the discussion at hand.
As others get better at it, you will benefit too, even if you’ve never run the Raid in your life. Why? Because others will hit the actual wall and find better tactics to finish the Raid (or any such encounter).
The initial videos that show a kill are different to current videos of kills, as the process, the builds and the tactics are getting refined and tuned. There are also more unique runs that show how you can use certain builds to avoid aspects of the fight, like killing the Vale Guardian without ever touching green circles, using certain builds for maximum damage so you can skip other mechanics, like No Updraft Gorseval and so on and so on.
As the playerbase as a whole gets better at it and finds better strategies, everyone will benefit from it, even those who’ve never done the Raid and going in for the first time.
I suppose the biggest issue I have with raids is that it is a reversal of the “play how you want” motto that Anets had before.
One of the advantages to dungeons was that, unless I was being outright stupid, it was doable. Whether I was on tanky gear or full DPS gear, no matter what class I happened to bring, the problems presented before me were solvable. If not by luck, then by patience, problem solving skills, and tenacity. Yes, there was a “Zerker meta”, but this meta was encouraged only by the players, was hard to enforce, and wasn’t really necessary for the dungeon.
I would enjoy anonymous dungeon running. Just grab a few people easily and go. Usually any event, even the harder ones, had a somewhat simple explanation on how to get through them. Failing that, I am usually fairly competent with the classes I play, so I could carry the pugs if they were tenacious enough.
But raids are… different. First, by desiring to pull in a hardcore crowed, raids did away with that whole “play whatever gear prefix you want” thing, and the whole “play whatever class you want” thing. Suddenly, those obscure charts located on random guild web pages that supposedly tracked DPS mattered, so much so that groups were failing just because they lacked the right classes and gear. No longer could I have loose rotations to use skills as needed, or could I pick a sub-optimal setup because I preferred defensive utilities over offensive ones. Now it’s “go glass, get it perfect, or go home”. You also had to bring a healer, too.
So, design philosophy dashed to bits for the sake of the “leet”. In theory there isn’t anything wrong with Anet having raids, but personally I am bothered by the whole thing. In all likelihood I"ll never be able to enter into the raids for several reasons:
#1: I an competent in mind only. Not in body. I am captain fumble fingers, descendant from the great mad random pressers when the immigrated over via a typo. “Perfection” is something that I can never achieve, ever, and so round after round will consist of me failing the whole boss because I pressed the wrong button or am in the wrong spot.
#2: I hate elitists. They generally bring the room down, and I’ve seen their attitudes poison and kill entire communities before, ruining games for everything. I was glad that most of the content in the game was fairly anti-elitist until raids. So, I would have to prostrate myself in front of people that I would sooner punch in the face than have try to force a friendly conversation with, begging them to take someone they hate along with them.
#3: Since I pug dungeons and run solo in the overworld, I have gear and rune sets chosen specifically to suit those needs, and not the needs of a 10 man group (particularly, going for group buffs instead of minor self buffs, sigil of strength/corruption instead of sigil of accuracy, refusal to eat food because food is so expensive, etc). So, I’m sub-optimal for raid groups by design, and building myself for raids will just hamstring me everywhere else.
#4: I cannot find a group to play with. The lack of an LFG that is suitable is definitely hindering things, but everyone talks about doing raids with “friends”. Antisocial by nature, I don’t make “friends” in online games, and nobody I know IRL plays GW2. I certainly haven’t been invited to or seen advertised any raid guilds. Also, due to my odd hours, I can’t make any commitments, since my infamous (anti)sleep schedule means that I can be around at literally any hour of the day. Heck, even writing this I’m on prescription strength tranquilizers that I took 6 hours ago, and they have absolutely no effect.
#5: The ship has sailed. Enough time has passed, so that the tolerance for my incompetence at play is no longer tolerable. This was a “get in or get out” situation, and I’m already out. Players are no longer expecting to “learn” at these raids, they are expecting to win.
#6: To be frank, I can’t keep track of all the things that are going on. I’m 1 step from legally blind, and even with my glasses I can’t see through the myriad of flashing colors and objects to discern, at a glance, what is going on and where I should be. Watching WP’s guide for the Sabetha fight literally made my head hurt, and I have no idea how I am supposed to remember, comprehend, and perceive all of that. I’ve played raids in City of Heroes and DCUO, and they have nothing on what GW2 raids bring.
In short, GW2 raids are this inaccessible and unassailable wall filled with unbearable people, and I stand alone.
I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.
I have fully optimized characters and alts. I have the skill and ability to raid should I choose to do so. I don’t want to do so. I don’t enjoy the experience enough to devote major time to it. I’m sure I’m not the only person who came to this game to avoid raid centric games, or games where not raiding makes you a second class citizen.
So now, having the skill to raid, and the ability to raid, but not enjoying raiding, I don’t want to see rewards that give gameplay advantage locked behind raids. I could grind away at raids to get legendary armor, and yes, I’d really like to have armor where I can change stats, but if I’m forced to raid to do it, I’ll dislike the game, and it will increase my change of leaving.
Knowing that I can’t get this convenience unless I do something I don’t enjoy for hours really does make me want to leave the game. That’s how I feel about it.
I didn’t buy a game to work. I bought a game to have fun. Until now I could get the best gear in the game without doing something I didn’t enjoy for an extended period of time. Now I can’t.
That’s an issue for me and people like me.
Well, it’s a good thing you are not forced to raid? It is perfectly justified to offer unique rewards through a hard-core system. It’s amazing how entitled you feel about this subject.
If you can’t deal with this then that sucks. Anet made a business decision here. Obviously raids must attract more people then they deter.
Correction. Anet attempted to try something that might or might not pan out in the long term. They made the decision to include legendary armor into the raid rewards before the first raid ever shipped.
Do you think Anet expected the backlash they received from the casual community? I don’t. Anet knows how many people play more, play less, stopped playing.
You’re making the assumption this has been a positive financial change. I’m making the assumption that those numbers aren’t in yet. Of course they’re going to finish the raid,t they’ve been working on it, it was supposed to come with the expansion, but these chips haven’t been counted yet.
There’s been a signficant backlash from the casual community against raids and HoT in general. Significant enough for Anet to revisit HoT and even admit it was too grindy and didn’t mesh with their stated objectives. That kind of backpedaling doesn’t happen when all is well in Denmark.
Anet made a business decision which they may yet regret. I think the raiding community might end up being surprised at how much backlash their actually is, and what that means for the future, only Anet can say (and they probably won’t).
However, if I were you, I wouldn’t count my chickens before they hatch.
…
So just don’t play raids. Why the hell is this still a discussion?! You don’t like them, don’t play them, there, solved your issue!
Well, it’s a good thing you are not forced to raid? It is perfectly justified to offer unique rewards through a hard-core system. It’s amazing how entitled you feel about this subject.
If you can’t deal with this then that sucks. Anet made a business decision here. Obviously raids must attract more people then they deter.
Correction. Anet attempted to try something that might or might not pan out in the long term. They made the decision to include legendary armor into the raid rewards before the first raid ever shipped.
Do you think Anet expected the backlash they received from the casual community? I don’t. Anet knows how many people play more, play less, stopped playing.
You’re making the assumption this has been a positive financial change. I’m making the assumption that those numbers aren’t in yet. Of course they’re going to finish the raid,t they’ve been working on it, it was supposed to come with the expansion, but these chips haven’t been counted yet.
There’s been a signficant backlash from the casual community against raids and HoT in general. Significant enough for Anet to revisit HoT and even admit it was too grindy and didn’t mesh with their stated objectives. That kind of backpedaling doesn’t happen when all is well in Denmark.
Anet made a business decision which they may yet regret. I think the raiding community might end up being surprised at how much backlash their actually is, and what that means for the future, only Anet can say (and they probably won’t).
However, if I were you, I wouldn’t count my chickens before they hatch.
No, there isn’t a significant backlash of any kind, there has been some complaining that the only new content this year has been raids. In fact, raids have been repeatedly praised for being as good as they are and even more casual players got into them. Raids in GW2 are played by a much bigger part of the playerbase than is common in most MMOs, and this is official info from Anet.
It’s amusing how much you are trying to turn this into a big deal when in fact it very much isn’t. The player-base has either embraced them or just don’t play them (because they are not mandatory in any way) and Anet have stated that they are very happy with how it all turned out. So all this backlash is mostly in your own head.
(edited by Andulias.9516)
…
So just don’t play raids. Why the hell is this still a discussion?! You don’t like them, don’t play them, there, solved your issue!
Well, it’s a good thing you are not forced to raid? It is perfectly justified to offer unique rewards through a hard-core system. It’s amazing how entitled you feel about this subject.
If you can’t deal with this then that sucks. Anet made a business decision here. Obviously raids must attract more people then they deter.
Correction. Anet attempted to try something that might or might not pan out in the long term. They made the decision to include legendary armor into the raid rewards before the first raid ever shipped.
Do you think Anet expected the backlash they received from the casual community? I don’t. Anet knows how many people play more, play less, stopped playing.
You’re making the assumption this has been a positive financial change. I’m making the assumption that those numbers aren’t in yet. Of course they’re going to finish the raid,t they’ve been working on it, it was supposed to come with the expansion, but these chips haven’t been counted yet.
There’s been a signficant backlash from the casual community against raids and HoT in general. Significant enough for Anet to revisit HoT and even admit it was too grindy and didn’t mesh with their stated objectives. That kind of backpedaling doesn’t happen when all is well in Denmark.
Anet made a business decision which they may yet regret. I think the raiding community might end up being surprised at how much backlash their actually is, and what that means for the future, only Anet can say (and they probably won’t).
However, if I were you, I wouldn’t count my chickens before they hatch.
No, there isn’t a significant backlash of any kind, there has been some complaining that the only new content this year has been raids. In fact, raids have been repeatedly praised for being as good as they are and even more casual players got into them. Raids in GW2 are played by a much bigger part of the playerbase than is common in most MMOs, and this is official info from Anet.
It’s amusing how much you are trying to turn this into a big deal when in fact it very much isn’t. The player-base has either embraced them or just don’t play them (because they are not mandatory in any way) and Anet have stated that they are very happy with how it all turned out. So all this backlash is mostly in your own head.
Actually you don’t know what the backlash is, but changes are being made to HoT to pander to players who have less free time and are more casual. That’s what Anet has said.
Do you really think that they would do that if their metrics didn’t show it was necessary? If they didn’t feel enough people were affected.
Face it, if Anet is making substantial changes to the new zones, they realize there’s an issue. Hell, they’ve admitted there’s an issue.
I think that’s a pretty good indication.
Actually you don’t know what the backlash is, but changes are being made to HoT to pander to players who have less free time and are more casual. That’s what Anet has said.
Do you really think that they would do that if their metrics didn’t show it was necessary? If they didn’t feel enough people were affected.
Face it, if Anet is making substantial changes to the new zones, they realize there’s an issue. Hell, they’ve admitted there’s an issue.
I think that’s a pretty good indication.
What does tweaking HoT maps have to do with raids, can you please explain that to me? Or are we just talking about whatever and ignoring the topic at hand?
Do you really think that they would do that if their metrics didn’t show it was necessary? If they didn’t feel enough people were affected.
Face it, if Anet is making substantial changes to the new zones, they realize there’s an issue. Hell, they’ve admitted there’s an issue.
I think that’s a pretty good indication.
Is this a generalized issue that the game does not provide enough content to the ‘casual’ audience, or a specific issue with the rewards and delivery structure of those zones?
Nalhadia – Kaineng
Actually you don’t know what the backlash is, but changes are being made to HoT to pander to players who have less free time and are more casual. That’s what Anet has said.
Do you really think that they would do that if their metrics didn’t show it was necessary? If they didn’t feel enough people were affected.
Face it, if Anet is making substantial changes to the new zones, they realize there’s an issue. Hell, they’ve admitted there’s an issue.
I think that’s a pretty good indication.
What does tweaking HoT maps have to do with raids, can you please explain that to me? Or are we just talking about whatever and ignoring the topic at hand?
The problem isn’t raids. It’s the perception of elements in the casual community which, rightly or wrongly, believes this game is no longer a game for them. The more stuff you have that people can’t get the more disenfranchised they’re going to feel.
I warned Anet on these forums about this before raids were ever introduced. You simply can’t lock an entire tier of gear behind one game type and expect people not to complain about it. If it were just crafted there’d be a riot.
No you’re trying to take something complex and make it simple. It’s not simple. Raids aren’t the problem…they’re part of the problem.
There are a host of dissatisfied people. There are multiple threads on reddit, and this forum posted by disenfranchised casuals You may think that’s not a problem but I assure you Anet does and they’d be wise, in my opinion, to listen, because they’ve built the game on casual content and suddenly changed it. They went off in a different direction that threatens at least part of the core base of players they’ve built up.
Raids alone aren’t the issue. The shift in focus is the issue, of which raids are a part. Sometimes, you have to look at the forest, not just the trees.
The problem isn’t raids. It’s the perception of elements in the casual community which, rightly or wrongly, believes this game is no longer a game for them. The more stuff you have that people can’t get the more disenfranchised they’re going to feel.
I warned Anet on these forums about this before raids were ever introduced. You simply can’t lock an entire tier of gear behind one game type and expect people not to complain about it. If it were just crafted there’d be a riot.
No you’re trying to take something complex and make it simple. It’s not simple. Raids aren’t the problem…they’re part of the problem.
There are a host of dissatisfied people. There are multiple threads on reddit, and this forum posted by disenfranchised casuals You may think that’s not a problem but I assure you Anet does and they’d be wise, in my opinion, to listen, because they’ve built the game on casual content and suddenly changed it. They went off in a different direction that threatens at least part of the core base of players they’ve built up.
Raids alone aren’t the issue. The shift in focus is the issue, of which raids are a part. Sometimes, you have to look at the forest, not just the trees.
Well yes, but it’s not for the same reason.
Most people are against the structure of the HoT and the fact that HP were designed around group event rather than just normal event that you can do alone. Very few really complain about the difficulty of these new mobs. Yes some people do complain about that, but as much as people complain about the difficulty of mobs in silverwaste and who complain about that anymore. People get used to the difficulty of mobs.
But people can’t get used to the difficulty of getting your HP when you play solo or having to wait 1 hours to have a 15min window to get into a DS map for 90min before you get your reward. And, it’s not about casual vs hardcore there. I consider myself an hardcore players and my friends are hardcore player too, but these obstacle are still there for us and that doesn’t make those activities appealing.
Thaddeauz [xQCx]- QC GUILD
The problem isn’t raids. It’s the perception of elements in the casual community which, rightly or wrongly, believes this game is no longer a game for them. The more stuff you have that people can’t get the more disenfranchised they’re going to feel.
I warned Anet on these forums about this before raids were ever introduced. You simply can’t lock an entire tier of gear behind one game type and expect people not to complain about it. If it were just crafted there’d be a riot.
No you’re trying to take something complex and make it simple. It’s not simple. Raids aren’t the problem…they’re part of the problem.
There are a host of dissatisfied people. There are multiple threads on reddit, and this forum posted by disenfranchised casuals You may think that’s not a problem but I assure you Anet does and they’d be wise, in my opinion, to listen, because they’ve built the game on casual content and suddenly changed it. They went off in a different direction that threatens at least part of the core base of players they’ve built up.
Raids alone aren’t the issue. The shift in focus is the issue, of which raids are a part. Sometimes, you have to look at the forest, not just the trees.
Well yes, but it’s not for the same reason.
Most people are against the structure of the HoT and the fact that HP were designed around group event rather than just normal event that you can do alone. Very few really complain about the difficulty of these new mobs. Yes some people do complain about that, but as much as people complain about the difficulty of mobs in silverwaste and who complain about that anymore. People get used to the difficulty of mobs.
But people can’t get used to the difficulty of getting your HP when you play solo or having to wait 1 hours to have a 15min window to get into a DS map for 90min before you get your reward. And, it’s not about casual vs hardcore there. I consider myself an hardcore players and my friends are hardcore player too, but these obstacle are still there for us and that doesn’t make those activities appealing.
Exactly! And raiding takes less or more time and commitment than waiting for a meta?
I normally try to keep my nose out of the toxicity of the mayhem that is the GW2 forums, but I wanted to find a way to articulate my reasons without being over-the-top dramatic and resorting to directly mailing my concerns via email, which were likely forwarded to the development/support team more times than a toilet’s seen business. And aside from the matter of condition-based inhibitions or irl issues, I think Blood Red Arachnid accurately relayed a large number of problems down to a T that I myself am profusely repulsed about, to the point that I’m about ready to quit the game.
I like running solo and all, and heaven forbid, I like myself a challenge, and was willing to give raids a go. I wouldn’t even have qualms with working up to the necessary credentials to gain admission to a raid, to learn about it… but what I cannot condone enough to TOLERATE running five minutes in a raid, is the obnoxiously unpleasant attitude of elitists in the first place, which is what drives the rift between casuals looking to give the raids a try, and the elitists who live, breathe and thrive in raids. And a common misconception said elitists seem to make when accusing casuals of whinging about raids, isn’t always that they don’t want to raid, it’s that they’re either too disconcerted by the crowd they’d be associating with to raid in the first place, or are feeling provoked that they have to coexist with these people to get future incentives soon to be implemented into the game, and on a time schedule that may not even work for them so they have to ultimately scrap the idea, embittering them about the raid idea as a whole. Hell, it’s even a shame that I’ve seen posts about people whose guilds have fallen apart because their interests differentiated too much, and it’s sad to see that raids can provoke such a problem in a game whose strongest point was its social community.
I really, really liked this game way back when. Sure, it was simplistic, and frankly not all that challenging I’ll admit, but this game’s shining quality was its casual nature that had me coming back time and time again. And now? People will religiously point it out if someone asks what skin you’re wearing, you link the gear piece and they catch you wearing healing gear, followed by an unnecessary tirade of why healing gear sets have absolutely no utilitarian benefit in this game. They released healer classes in the game to be healers, when did trying out something new and tinkering with its potential a bit become so banal? When did, as Arachnid said, the motto of “play how you want to play” become obsolete because the new content had to go and oppose that quality? Who knows, maybe I’m wrong and some raids bring healers, but for every map chat, regular chat and forum chat I’ve witnessed, healers were the devil.
As a little constructive criticism to Anet, raids were, in a sense, a good feature with a promising aspect, I won’t deny that. I was even looking forward to trying it out myself. But there is definitely a LOT of room for improvement on how it could have been integrated, such as tweaking the raid insofar the holy trinity of tank, healer and DPS became relevant, and thus stats that weren’t just berserker would have value again. Heck, so that classes designated to their roles would be useful once more. Perhaps add a DoT AOE that would compel healers to wear gear that maximized their healing potential, keeping their teammates alive when it became hot and heavy, and then perhaps a feature that would require a tank to lure the boss away from the group, whilst being heavily fortified enough to take the lethal blow the boss would deliver so that the group stayed alive, and the tank did his job without falling flat on his meaty posterior in the process.
I liked the look of the raids, but their delivery was so awkwardly executed in my perception, this game isn’t fun so much as toxic these days, and this is coming from someone who likes their skills being put to the test as much as any hardcore gamer. But I value sociability on par with challenging content, and in the long run, it wasn’t the raid that killed this game’s luster for me, it was the rancid attitude it invoked in a target group of people that have made the atmosphere of the game much less immersive than it used to be.
Who knows, if I start seeing good news from afar about GW2’s sense of direction and they fix these issues that alienated the new features they sought to capitalize on in the first place, I’d give it another spin, but I’ve spoken my peace, and with that said, tah!
You’re making the assumption this has been a positive financial change. I’m making the assumption that those numbers aren’t in yet. Of course they’re going to finish the raid,t they’ve been working on it, it was supposed to come with the expansion, but these chips haven’t been counted yet.
I’m stating the fact that a surprisingly decent amount of players have cleared/worked on content in the raid wings.
According to this: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/47um5k/raid_5/
41.5% of players have at least stepped foot in the raid and attempted a boss. About 21% of players have cleared a boss, or wiped enough to gather up 50 magnetite shards. What’s more is this is an understatement since a lot of raiders do not use gw2efficiency. You may think “Well 21% (Most certainly more) of the player-base is not significant.” I’m here to tell you that you are wrong. It was speculated that HoT sold about half a million copies. If 21% of the player-base came to this game to raid, or raiding keeps them interested I’d say this is having a positive impact on sales. As time goes by the content will become natural and more and more players will participate. Evidence points to you being the minority when you account for all aspects of this game.
I personally wouldn’t mind seeing these numbers matched up with WvW’ers, sPvP’ers, Dungeons, Fractals, Open world Meta’s, or… what do you guys complaining do? Mine ore all day and SV trains?
There’s been a signficant backlash from the casual community against raids and HoT in general. Significant enough for Anet to revisit HoT and even admit it was too grindy and didn’t mesh with their stated objectives. That kind of backpedaling doesn’t happen when all is well in Denmark.
There’s been a signficant backlash from the casual community against raids and HoT in general. Significant enough for Anet to revisit HoT and even admit it was too grindy and didn’t mesh with their stated objectives. That kind of backpedaling doesn’t happen when all is well in Denmark.
Correction, there’s been a significant backlash from the 1% of casuals that take up these forums. Also, Anet is revisiting HoT outside of raiding. That statement is pointless to this conversation unless you want to show me where Anet stated they were revisiting raids in April.
@Aenorio
Tl;DR I’m guessing you had a bad pugging experience. Part of raiding in pugs is dealing with people who have already cleared the content you are learning. These are people who read up and watched videos on the fights. If you come in, messing up the mechanics or whatever your role is the people running the pug have two options. They can give you constructive criticism, which pretty much no one online can take, or they can kick you out and replace you. It’s fair game and this isn’t elitism. It’s called looking for people of similar skill. If you are looking for people to casually raid and learn together. Find a guild! It’s not that difficult of a concept!
I don’t know what Anet can do about you feeling like the raiding community is “toxic.”
I think the only other point you made was:
and then perhaps a feature that would require a tank to lure the boss away from the group, whilst being heavily fortified enough to take the lethal blow the boss would deliver so that the group stayed alive, and the tank did his job without falling flat on his meaty posterior in the process."
Is this a joke? This is literally how it is? Tanks, while not relevant on every fight are the class that is rocking this most toughness. They literally pull aggro. Druids and Tempests wear magi/zealot/cleric gear to heal. There are condi dps that rock viper stats and a few extra classes that rock zerkers. Probably others too… It sounds like you have zero comprehension on this game after HoT was released.
(edited by Avarice.2791)
You’re making the assumption this has been a positive financial change. I’m making the assumption that those numbers aren’t in yet. Of course they’re going to finish the raid,t they’ve been working on it, it was supposed to come with the expansion, but these chips haven’t been counted yet.
I’m stating the fact that a surprisingly decent amount of players have cleared/worked on content in the raid wings.
According to this: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/47um5k/raid_5/
41.5% of players have at least stepped foot in the raid and attempted a boss. About 21% of players have cleared a boss, or wiped enough to gather up 50 magnetite shards. What’s more is this is an understatement since a lot of raiders do not use gw2efficiency. You may think “Well 21% (Most certainly more) of the player-base is not significant.” I’m here to tell you that you are wrong. It was speculated that HoT sold about half a million copies. If 21% of the player-base came to this game to raid, or raiding keeps them interested I’d say this is having a positive impact on sales. As time goes by the content will become natural and more and more players will participate. Evidence points to you being the minority when you account for all aspects of this game.
I personally wouldn’t mind seeing these numbers matched up with WvW’ers, sPvP’ers, Dungeons, Fractals, Open world Meta’s, or… what do you guys complaining do? Mine ore all day and SV trains?
There’s been a signficant backlash from the casual community against raids and HoT in general. Significant enough for Anet to revisit HoT and even admit it was too grindy and didn’t mesh with their stated objectives. That kind of backpedaling doesn’t happen when all is well in Denmark.
There’s been a signficant backlash from the casual community against raids and HoT in general. Significant enough for Anet to revisit HoT and even admit it was too grindy and didn’t mesh with their stated objectives. That kind of backpedaling doesn’t happen when all is well in Denmark.
Correction, there’s been a significant backlash from the 1% of casuals that take up these forums. Also, Anet is revisiting HoT outside of raiding. That statement is pointless to this conversation unless you want to show me where Anet stated they were revisiting raids in April.
@Aenorio
Tl;DR I’m guessing you had a bad pugging experience. Part of raiding in pugs is dealing with people who have already cleared the content you are learning. These are people who read up and watched videos on the fights. If you come in, messing up the mechanics or whatever your role is the people running the pug have two options. They can give you constructive criticism, which pretty much no one online can take, or they can kick you out and replace you. It’s fair game and this isn’t elitism. It’s called looking for people of similar skill. If you are looking for people to casually raid and learn together. Find a guild! It’s not that difficult of a concept!
I don’t know what Anet can do about you feeling like the raiding community is “toxic.”
It’s not 1% of the casuals, and for each person that posts, you know a hundred won’t. But aside from that 41.5 percent set foot in a raid means 60% of the playerbase never set foot in a raid, and that includes pretty much everyone in my guild who wanted to see the inside who never raided. Lots of people are curious.
20% beating A raid boss means 80% haven’t beat a raid boss. That means you’re taking a chance at alienating a majority of the player base. Those numbers also include people who have bought raids, because some people sell them.
So tell me, how have you determined this 1% number, may I ask? Can you show me your calculations?
Exactly! And raiding takes less or more time and commitment than waiting for a meta?
Definitively the raid by a big margin. But the commitment and expectation of commitment is different here.
Commitment
In the new HoT it’s structural. Whatever you do, the commitment is there. The maps are 90-120min long, the big reward is at the end, they completely through out of the window the principle of entry and exit point, you rely massively on the LFG which is a pain to use (this was also present on Silverwaste and Dry Top, but those were the minority of maps, while it’s the majority for HoT maps).
Raid on the other end, the commitment is about forming a squad and the level of difficulty. If you have a squad with good player the commitment is pretty much zero. If you don’t have a squad and have average players the commitment is too big for a lot of people.
Expectation of Commitment
Open World is suppose to be casual, there were designed that way and that’s the natural environment for casual. All open world map were pretty much for a more casual crowd. And I’m not just talking about casual player. I’m an hardcore players, but I want to play casually when I go into open world.
Raid were suppose to be hardcore content from day one.
Thaddeauz [xQCx]- QC GUILD