Guild Wars 2

i like you want save reputation of expansion gj

Updating what I said about Elite Spec unlocks in the Hero Points thread to address this blog post directly:

The change is a step in the right direction and will probably work out. But the way Hero Points work in general is still concerning as a design choice, and actually contradicts the message in the blog. Let me explain:

400 Hero Points took a long time to gather, but that’s not the main issue IMHO. The main issue was it was a long time, spent doing exactly ONE THING. There is only one way to get Hero Points, which is go to set points on the map and do their thing.

Compare this to leveling a class and unlocking the non-elite lines. Hero Points can accelerate the process, but in general playing the game, going where the player wants and taking in content along their own path all nets XP and all contributes to unlocking more skills and traits. This makes unlocking these things enjoyable, as I can do it a number of different ways and I’m never locked into one particular thing.

Same thing with Masteries which have been much better received. I run around the maps doing my thing, gather XP, train up the Masteries then quickly gather some points to unlock them. It’s fun and open.

10 hours of playing is pretty much 10 hours of gaining XP or Mastery training. I may not be 100% efficient if I wander aimlessly, but I can explore and enjoy the content and know I’m still making progress towards my end goal.

In contrast, getting Hero Points require single minded farming of a single thing. If I really want to make progress towards Chronomancer, 10 hours of this play feels like 10 hours of checking boxes off on a list, it isn’t particularly fun or engaging and it becomes an outright chore, not a game. Which is a shame, because some of the challenges are themselves fun to overcome.

The blog seems to want us to see unlocking our Elites as part of the progression of playing through HoT, slowly discovering new things. That’s an awesome concept, but the problem is it doesn’t work in HoT. I could play thousands of hours of HoT and never unlock an Elite, because I didn’t hit those single specific things on each map. Right now, I don’t play HoT and slowly unlock my spec. I have to choose to either play HoT’s greater content, or take time away from that to hunt Hero Points to unlock the Elite. They aren’t parallel occurrences in a normal run of play, Hero Points are a separate laundry list of checkboxes which gate content in an artificial way.

So my sincere feedback and challenge to the designers is this – don’t just tinker with numbers to get the amount of grind right. Give us a system that isn’t just checkboxing/ farming one thing with our imagination turned off. Let us unlock our specializations as we play and explore HoT as a whole – that’s how you get people to engage with and explore the world instead of flocking to specific points in a mindless train, and also the system which originally made leveling in GW2 fun and open.

So happy at the 250 point change

glad it worked out for you guys
im not going through a hardcore version of silverwastes again
for the first time, im actually considering , to uninstall this game

Thank you so much for this guys.

Even more stoked to see that you have decided on doing this with so many new players around atm. It’s a great sign for the future and goes to show that customer feedback here can actually bring relevant and positive change unlike the “like it or gtfo” crowd would like us all to believe.

Pumped.

CuteLilKittenHugz.2064:

I really think you guys are so grateful for a change – any change – that you’re missing a few things that point to this not being much of a compromise.

1) Hero points are still account bound.
2) They are still gated behind some masteries.
3) You are still forced to spend Hero Points on ALL your skills and utilities before you can even unlock the elite spec.
4) The elite specs are all earned in a linear fashion – which means you MUST spend your hero points on traits AND SKILLS that you may never even use.

As it is, 250 HP is easier to swallow versus 400 HP, true…if you only have 1 or 2 alts to grind. But once you hit 4-5 alts and up… this is still a HUGE amount of grind.

I very much agree with this. I feel like the number 250 was chosen as a trap, such that Anet can say they “compromised” and anyone who is still unhappy must be “unreasonable.” However, I have yet to hear anyone satisfactorily explain why providing an instant elite unlock (e.g. via a Story quest) would be detrimental to players. Concerns about “progression” are disingenuous because the mastery system is still there.

Perhaps Anet is telling me (and those like me) that their game really isn’t for me. That would make me sad, because I felt GW2 really was for me compared to the other MMOs I’ve played.

BLESS YOU ANET. I love you guys. Seriously. Thank you so much.

Helequin.2608:

Updating what I said about Elite Spec unlocks in the Hero Points thread to address this blog post directly:

The change is a step in the right direction and will probably work out. But the way Hero Points work in general is still concerning as a design choice, and actually contradicts the message in the blog. Let me explain:

400 Hero Points took a long time to gather, but that’s not the main issue IMHO. The main issue was it was a long time, spent doing exactly ONE THING. There is only one way to get Hero Points, which is go to set points on the map and do their thing.

Compare this to leveling a class and unlocking the non-elite lines. Hero Points can accelerate the process, but in general playing the game, going where the player wants and taking in content along their own path all nets XP and all contributes to unlocking more skills and traits. This makes unlocking these things enjoyable, as I can do it a number of different ways and I’m never locked into one particular thing.

Same thing with Masteries which have been much better received. I run around the maps doing my thing, gather XP, train up the Masteries then quickly gather some points to unlock them. It’s fun and open.

10 hours of playing is pretty much 10 hours of gaining XP or Mastery training. I may not be 100% efficient if I wander aimlessly, but I can explore and enjoy the content and know I’m still making progress towards my end goal.

In contrast, getting Hero Points require single minded farming of a single thing. If I really want to make progress towards Chronomancer, 10 hours of this play feels like 10 hours of checking boxes off on a list, it isn’t particularly fun or engaging and it becomes an outright chore, not a game. Which is a shame, because some of the challenges are themselves fun to overcome.

The blog seems to want us to see unlocking our Elites as part of the progression of playing through HoT, slowly discovering new things. That’s an awesome concept, but the problem is it doesn’t work in HoT. I could play thousands of hours of HoT and never unlock an Elite, because I didn’t hit those single specific things on each map. Right now, I don’t play HoT and slowly unlock my spec. I have to choose to either play HoT’s greater content, or take time away from that to hunt Hero Points to unlock the Elite. They aren’t parallel occurrences in a normal run of play, Hero Points are a separate laundry list of checkboxes which gate content in an artificial way.

So my sincere feedback and challenge to the designers is this – don’t just tinker with numbers to get the amount of grind right. Give us a system that isn’t just checkboxing/ farming one thing with our imagination turned off. Let us unlock our specializations as we play and explore HoT as a whole – that’s how you get people to engage with and explore the world instead of flocking to specific points in a mindless train, and also the system which originally made leveling in GW2 fun and open.

It’s pointless. Anet was given PLENTY of great suggestions like yours, and they ignored it all and took the easy way out by just changing a number, hoping it would be enough. And it seems most people have been fooled – for now.

We can only hope once people have to do it over, and over, and over they will realize they were too quick to be thankful for what is essentially a nicely wrapped gift box with nothing in it.

Thanks for listening and reacting to the concerns about the grind. While it won’t solve all problems with it, it’s an important step into the right direction.

hotfreak.5907:

Thanks for the update. Do you know how the elite spec requirement reduction will be implemented? Will we be refunded HPs that we’ve already spent? Or will what we have not yet unlocked just cost less?

From the blog post:

If you’ve already put more than 250 points into your elite specialization, surplus hero points will be refunded to your character for future use.

The one to Rule.2593:

Meh, casuals win again

Go watch the manifesto video. This game was created for us “casual players” really the word casual should be substituted for normal. This change helps bring the expansion back in line with the original philosophy of the game. Since transitioning from hardcore gamer in my youth to busy adulthood I’ve always had a hard time looking on those who sacrifice so much life to play so often. It’s very hard for me to relate to someone yelling out in the forums “Made it though the final boss battle in four days”, etc… To each his own I guess, but unless you’re 14 and truly don’t have much else to do in life you’ll eventually look back wondering what you were thinking… One of the big selling points of GW2 was the “MMO for everyone” philosophy.

Preserver.8457:

CuteLilKittenHugz.2064:

I really think you guys are so grateful for a change – any change – that you’re missing a few things that point to this not being much of a compromise.

1) Hero points are still account bound.
2) They are still gated behind some masteries.
3) You are still forced to spend Hero Points on ALL your skills and utilities before you can even unlock the elite spec.
4) The elite specs are all earned in a linear fashion – which means you MUST spend your hero points on traits AND SKILLS that you may never even use.

As it is, 250 HP is easier to swallow versus 400 HP, true…if you only have 1 or 2 alts to grind. But once you hit 4-5 alts and up… this is still a HUGE amount of grind.

I very much agree with this. I feel like the number 250 was chosen as a trap, such that Anet can say they “compromised” and anyone who is still unhappy must be “unreasonable.” However, I have yet to hear anyone satisfactorily explain why providing an instant elite unlock (e.g. via a Story quest) would be detrimental to players. Concerns about “progression” are disingenuous because the mastery system is still there.

Perhaps Anet is telling me (and those like me) that their game really isn’t for me. That would make me sad, because I felt GW2 really was for me compared to the other MMOs I’ve played.

No, what they are saying is they backed themselves into a wall and can’t toss the failed system out without admitting they royally screwed up. Game developers are rather notorious for never admitting they totally screwed up. Even the blog/release is more of downplaying the outcry rather than a real apology for hiding this from everyone till days before it went live.

I still would jump into wvw and playing the specs i paied for without that pve grind disease.. well grind in general is a desease.

HP are lowered but core issue is still there so pity is just a little bandaid.

Thank you for changing the amount of hero points needed.

250 is too low. I have 9 characters (including the revenant I created with the HoT launch).
At 250 I can have all but the rev fully done within a day which is far too easy.

Thank you for the change, now it’ll be a lot easier for people to enjoy the jungle with the new specs and for wvwers and the alts!!!

Preserver.8457:

CuteLilKittenHugz.2064:

I really think you guys are so grateful for a change – any change – that you’re missing a few things that point to this not being much of a compromise.

1) Hero points are still account bound.
2) They are still gated behind some masteries.
3) You are still forced to spend Hero Points on ALL your skills and utilities before you can even unlock the elite spec.
4) The elite specs are all earned in a linear fashion – which means you MUST spend your hero points on traits AND SKILLS that you may never even use.

As it is, 250 HP is easier to swallow versus 400 HP, true…if you only have 1 or 2 alts to grind. But once you hit 4-5 alts and up… this is still a HUGE amount of grind.

I very much agree with this. I feel like the number 250 was chosen as a trap, such that Anet can say they “compromised” and anyone who is still unhappy must be “unreasonable.” However, I have yet to hear anyone satisfactorily explain why providing an instant elite unlock (e.g. via a Story quest) would be detrimental to players. Concerns about “progression” are disingenuous because the mastery system is still there.

Perhaps Anet is telling me (and those like me) that their game really isn’t for me. That would make me sad, because I felt GW2 really was for me compared to the other MMOs I’ve played.

Exactly this.

Nidome.1365:

250 is too low. I have 9 characters (including the revenant I created with the HoT launch).
At 250 I can have all but the rev fully done within a day which is far too easy.

I doubt thee majority of players outside have 100% world on 9+alts…

And i quote myself form other thread

Zaron.1987:

btw you can do your own challenge.
(comparison to gw2 vanilla hardcore e.g the woodenpotatoes rules for hc mode with no dodge and so on)

here ist the rule for HoT:
dont unlock your elite completly until you have earned all hero points
—> challenge accepted

“hardcores” can play the game with their"personally 400 Hp is the only real way anet expected to play" while others enjoy the jungle with new traits and new feeling of playing their alts.

all win.

its up to you to create your own challenge!

Thank you for putting my thoughts into words so perfectly. From the start of the Hero Point system I have struggled to figure out what exactly it was about them that didn’t sit right in contrast to the rest of the game. This is exactly it. I really and truly hope ArenaNet seriously considers this feedback and finds ways to offer alternative paths to progression for earning Hero Points. Especially considering that they have plans to give us new elite specs later. It doesn’t seem like an expandable system unless they are going to tie every new elite spec to a full expansion which also doesn’t seem all that great of a path.

Here’s to hoping for more freedom.

Helequin.2608:

Updating what I said about Elite Spec unlocks in the Hero Points thread to address this blog post directly:

The change is a step in the right direction and will probably work out. But the way Hero Points work in general is still concerning as a design choice, and actually contradicts the message in the blog. Let me explain:

400 Hero Points took a long time to gather, but that’s not the main issue IMHO. The main issue was it was a long time, spent doing exactly ONE THING. There is only one way to get Hero Points, which is go to set points on the map and do their thing.

Compare this to leveling a class and unlocking the non-elite lines. Hero Points can accelerate the process, but in general playing the game, going where the player wants and taking in content along their own path all nets XP and all contributes to unlocking more skills and traits. This makes unlocking these things enjoyable, as I can do it a number of different ways and I’m never locked into one particular thing.

Same thing with Masteries which have been much better received. I run around the maps doing my thing, gather XP, train up the Masteries then quickly gather some points to unlock them. It’s fun and open.

10 hours of playing is pretty much 10 hours of gaining XP or Mastery training. I may not be 100% efficient if I wander aimlessly, but I can explore and enjoy the content and know I’m still making progress towards my end goal.

In contrast, getting Hero Points require single minded farming of a single thing. If I really want to make progress towards Chronomancer, 10 hours of this play feels like 10 hours of checking boxes off on a list, it isn’t particularly fun or engaging and it becomes an outright chore, not a game. Which is a shame, because some of the challenges are themselves fun to overcome.

The blog seems to want us to see unlocking our Elites as part of the progression of playing through HoT, slowly discovering new things. That’s an awesome concept, but the problem is it doesn’t work in HoT. I could play thousands of hours of HoT and never unlock an Elite, because I didn’t hit those single specific things on each map. Right now, I don’t play HoT and slowly unlock my spec. I have to choose to either play HoT’s greater content, or take time away from that to hunt Hero Points to unlock the Elite. They aren’t parallel occurrences in a normal run of play, Hero Points are a separate laundry list of checkboxes which gate content in an artificial way.

So my sincere feedback and challenge to the designers is this – don’t just tinker with numbers to get the amount of grind right. Give us a system that isn’t just checkboxing/ farming one thing with our imagination turned off. Let us unlock our specializations as we play and explore HoT as a whole – that’s how you get people to engage with and explore the world instead of flocking to specific points in a mindless train, and also the system which originally made leveling in GW2 fun and open.

This is not good enough. They need to drop the HP required for full elite spec to 50 HP.

…Just kidding.

I’m still taking a break from the game for a few months, but I’m glad I have incentive to buy the expansion again.

Thank you very very VERY much! THis is much more managable and is a most welcome change. +1

The last concern I really have is to put in a grace period for anyone d/c and or crashed of around 3 minutes so players can get back into the zone instance they were previously in.

Like last night, where I managed to play most of a 2 hour event, right at the end when the boss was going to die I crashed, re-logged in less than a minute, and was placed in an entirely new instance; I lost all progress and rewards. 2 hours gone b/c of something I had no control over. This happens on a regular basis and is really frustrating me.

Even in a group I stand to not get back into the original instance since the mega server instantly fills my spot the moment I crash.

This issue has been here ever since mega servers was introduced so I beg you to consider putting in a re-log grace period so players effected by a d/c and or crash are not so punished. Thank you.

How will hero points that are already spent up to 250 be adjusted?

Horatius.8479:

HP will be refunded, states it in the post. I think this is a great decision, I actually just main my War but for those who have many alts I see it was an issue. Also it does make sense doing most of the new content with the new elites.

They state for points in surplus of 250. I, and a few others, are more interested in points that have been already spent but do not go past the 250 mark.

For example: My Dragonhunter has spent 200 some odd points to open up the 9th ability~ Fragments of Faith. After the change, will she be 50 points from completion with more things unlocked (up to where the new 200 -/+ mark would be)? Or will points already spent not be adjusted?

Curious to know, because if that is the case, none of my 80’s will be spending their points til after the adjustment happens.

fixit.7189:

Thank you very very VERY much! THis is much more managable and is a most welcome change. +1

The last concern I really have is to put in a grace period for anyone d/c and or crashed of around 3 minutes so players can get back into the zone instance they were previously in. Like last night, where I managed to play most of a 2 hour event, right at the end when the boss was going to die I crashed, re-logged in less than a minute, and was placed in an entirely new instance; I lost all progress and rewards. 2 hours gone b/c of something I had no control over. This happens on a regular basis and is really frustrating me.

Even in a group I stand to not get back into the original instance since the mega server instantly fills my spot the moment I crash.

This issue has been here ever since mega servers was introduced so I beg you to consider putting in a re-log grace period so players effected by a d/c and or crash are not so punished. Thank you.

A grace period would be wonderful, especially in light of the totally normal and expected hiccups that happens with any launch. Makes things very frustrating to lose progress 5+ times a night.

Loved how you act like every one is loving the expansion and how hard it is ….
lol trying to save face it seems we will see how that goes in a few weeks when no one needs to be there

When is this going live?

A good compromise. It still requires a good amount of work to have been put into your char, either before the expansion or after. With as many alts as people have, 400 was simply too high.

Thank you ANet for reading feedback and being willing to reconsider and change as needed.

Can I just say – as a player with 10 lvl 80’s, I appreciate this action – sanity has ruled the day. This make the xpac just about perfect in my eyes. Well done, ANet, well done.

I voted with my wallet when I pre-ordered for myself and my daughter, and I am now completely satisfied in doing so. Your reaction to the overwhelming feedback so quickly does you credit and totally justifies my faith is rationality winning the day.

Seems like a good move to me.

If Elite Specs had been elite, something better than what characters had access to before their implementation, then I could see them being used as rewards. As alternative play style mechanics it seems appropriate for them to be accessible earlier in the process of playing the new content.

The cool thing is that those who want to think of them as character progression can choose to not play an elite spekittenil after they have earned 400 HP, and so keep that sense of rewarding themselves through play if they like.

I think the 400 Hero Point requirement was fine, but then again I only play ONE character only. I can see how this can be a process for the people that have multiple characters, but only to a point. I think I saw a player here with 28 toons that was still complaining. I find that quite a bit excessive to the point that if you are still asking for easier access to the skills, you are being a bit selfish. If you are going to make 28 characters, you need to also be prepared for the 28 times responsibility you are taking upon yourself to keep those characters up to date. That alt excuse can only go so far, in my opinion.

I also think it’s a good move.

While I never criticized the 400 points system here, I thought to myself “all these elite specs seems fun to play and suit my characters. This is going to be tedious to unlock them all”. In fact, only the druid doesn’t interess me.
While my main engi had lots of hero points, most of my characters do not have that much exploration done, therefore not much hero points.

This is a good thing to retain the progression (on the scrapper, I just unlocked the Adaptative armor, and I was so happy to do so!), and it becomes less tedious, while keeping the need to explore for hero points.

Now, the question is: Is 250 points too low for an elite? I would have lowered the points needed to 300 instead, personally.

Preserver.8457:

I very much agree with this. I feel like the number 250 was chosen as a trap, such that Anet can say they “compromised” and anyone who is still unhappy must be “unreasonable.” However, I have yet to hear anyone satisfactorily explain why providing an instant elite unlock (e.g. via a Story quest) would be detrimental to players. Concerns about “progression” are disingenuous because the mastery system is still there.

Perhaps Anet is telling me (and those like me) that their game really isn’t for me. That would make me sad, because I felt GW2 really was for me compared to the other MMOs I’ve played.

“Satisfactorily” is a lofty and vague demand for an explanation. I doubt very much you’d ever be satisfied by an explanation for an opinion that is different to your own in this case, because that’s how it works inherently with different opinions.

To say that masters provide progression is not to say that people ought to want them to be the ONLY thing that provides progression.

Elite specializations add a new class mechanic, new weapon (and all possible skins that weapon entails), 5 new skills, 3 new minor traits (granted 1 is usually fluff), and 9 new traits. To those who like to earn certain things in games they play, this seems like something that could fairly be seen as a good choice for some end game progression. Especially considering it’s optional, not required (many builds will NEVER use an elite spec).

Why shouldn’t a legendary, or say Volcanus, just be unlocked in a personal story step? Can you explain that to me in a manner that satisfies me personally?

<3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3

The one to Rule.2593:

Meh, casuals win again

What’s more casual, the player who has 1 toon happy to grind 400 points or the guy who has 20 toons and doesn’t want to grind 8000 points just for being a loyal paying customer?

Massive thankyou to Anet

Tzozef.9841:

When is this going live?

Sounded like tonight, but who knows for sure?

I and all the others in my house hold that play are very happy about this change. Now I can go back to enjoying the game and not keep getting my ear chewed off about how I convinced people to buy an expansion that was not fun.

Thanks. I honetly think regardless of what decisions can be made, we can have open discourse.

I won’t complain about the change at all. I’ll admit I was disappointed when I logged in after launch to learn I couldn’t learn enough of my spec for it to be useful right away. I was looking forward to running through HoT with it.

This is great news! Thank you so much for listening and responding to us.

I wasnt aware that failing meta events over and over because dozens of faceless players dont know what theyre doing is considered “meaningful challenge”.

I for one like this, now i can get glint a bit faster.
Just don’t make the game too easy please.
I like it how hard HoT is and it could be a bit harder.

Excellent news. At a stroke reduced my total required from 4000 to 2500. My highest toon had 60 to start, most others seem to have little to none (legendary crafting sucks them up).

Managed to get one 10 point HP and 4 wvw levels tonight in 5 hours, so should only take me another 650 hours of game play or so to unlock those elites, at an average of 1.5 hours a day, about a year and a quarter.

I’m still aggrieved that elites were locked away behind HP as that wasn’t how it was sold at all, and in beta we had it unlocked at start which gave a completely false impression of the maps and skills that would be available.

For a wvw player, this is still a lot of work for something that was sold as being there on day one, namely a new class and new skills.

Masteries are find locked behind a massive grind, as they are not essential outside the ares you get them.

400 and people complain.

250 and people complain.

I guess it’s true that you can’t please everyone.

Personally I think it’s a good compromise, but I really feel sorry for you Anet.

Nidome.1365:

250 is too low. I have 9 characters (including the revenant I created with the HoT launch).
At 250 I can have all but the rev fully done within a day which is far too easy.

9 characters is too low. You should have at least 37. And you should play them all at the same time, with only one hand. Otherwise it’s far too easy.

Wow, the system works! Thanks ANet for listening and making adjustments, it is a credit to you.

So instead of putting in the effort to earn awesome things, all you gotta do is QQ to the devs?

What’s next, free twilights for everyone?

What’s wrong with you, Anet?

Would it make me sound old if I started complaining about kids these days always expecting immediate gratification?

What about refunding the 200+ I already spent ?

Greyfur.1082:

What about refunding the 200+ I already spent ?

This please.

The question that intrigues me is, what would happen when new specialisations come out, if the cost for each was 400? Would people be willing to do all that work, possibly for multiple alts, if they didn’t already have the 200 points from the core game to start with?

This is good news. 250 hp is reasonable.