Guild Wars 2

Ayrilana.1396:

If you own the core game before the HoT expansion announcement, and apply the expansion code to your account before it goes live, you get a character slot.

If you bought the game from a retailer after the announcement of the expansion, but before June 16th, you’ll get a character slot if you apply the expansion code towards your account before it goes live.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

If you meet the requirements (listed above [Own core game pre-Jan 23, and apply a HoT serial code before Hot launch]), you will receive a bonus character slot, above and beyond any that may be offered with a particular edition.

One (total character slots) with Standard
Two (total character slots) with Deluxe
Two (total character slots) with Ultimate

Ok, thanks so much for clearing that up. ^^

As someone who has played on and off since year 1 and buys things out of the cash shop on a semi regular basis, I do not feel that the current pricing scheme is appropriate.

There are plenty of people who do not need Base game serial codes, and yet HoT comes with it by default. I understand this is to make it easier for people to get into the game but it shouldn’t be that hard to separate them…..

I would be fine with HoT@ $39.99, why? Because the Base Game has gone on sale for $9.99 so many times it may as well be the default price now.

As it stands, my group of friends will likely be waiting for the inevitable sale that will occur 2-4 months down the road to pick up HoT. While we would like to play at launch, we’re not convinced that it’s worth the $49.99 price tag.

All the $10.00 got automatic refunds and core game went free to play not long ago

Refund of core game purchase

In addition to our standard 30 day refund policy on game purchases, we’re offering automatic refunds to all players who purchased the core Guild Wars 2 game through buy.guildwars2.com or in-game during the months leading up to pre-purchase. All accounts that meet the following criteria will receive an automatic refund for Guild Wars 2 core game purchases

https://help.guildwars2.com/entries/94582027-Heart-of-Thorns-Pre-Purchase-FAQ/#Additional

You get its cost bundled into the HoT purchase, which is $50 before the base game is added. Fortunately, the core game is free, so it doesn’t increase the cost of the expansion.

Halvaard.1034:

As it stands, my group of friends will likely be waiting for the inevitable sale that will occur 2-4 months down the road to pick up HoT.

Keep in mind that without HoT, you won’t be able to unlock the living story for free. As soon as its start up, the price of HoT will actually increase over time until it’s put on sale.

Some of the official retailers have already had ~20% discounts. That’ll likely be the best deal a veteran player will ever see if you consider the monetary value of gems ($10 character slot). 50+% off sales will likely never happen again if they stick with expansions, since each one is going to reset the price.

I bought my game at launch, I get no refund.
My investment is $50 base game, plus gem shop items.
My friends all got their base games summer 2014, on sale, they get no refunds either.

I understand that games like this have operating costs, but I’m still not convinced an expansion warrants another $49.99 out of me.

New Players get everything for $50, so I still think veterans deserve a slight discount.

Yo go ahead and wait for a sale while everyone else enjoys the new content

Halvaard.1034:

I bought my game at launch, I get no refund.
My investment is $50 base game, plus gem shop items.
My friends all got their base games summer 2014, on sale, they get no refunds either.

I understand that games like this have operating costs, but I’m still not convinced an expansion warrants another $49.99 out of me.

New Players get everything for $50, so I still think veterans deserve a slight discount.

Are you implying that spending $50 for three years of playtime, including all the no-longer available Living Story stuff, wasn’t worth it? How much would you say the last three years were worth to you?

Oh at OP HoT would $39.99, after the free $10 free slot Anet is giving away if you buy expac before the 23rd.

Halvaard.1034:

I bought my game at launch, I get no refund.
My investment is $50 base game, plus gem shop items.
My friends all got their base games summer 2014, on sale, they get no refunds either.

I understand that games like this have operating costs, but I’m still not convinced an expansion warrants another $49.99 out of me.

New Players get everything for $50, so I still think veterans deserve a slight discount.

You bought the game at launch, surely you’ve gotten atleast $50 worth of entertainment out of it since then? Which is what the cost justifies.

How do people miss the boat on entertainment value?

It just irks me that new players are getting in for $50, and I’ll effectively be paying $100.

After playing the game for 3 years, it’s worth every cent i spent on the core game. With this expansion, I know i’m going to enjoy playing the game again for at least couple more years

I understand that you need to wait til a price drop. GW2 will always be there. To be honest, while the price is steep, the value I got at the end is pretty much worth every penny.

Halvaard.1034:

It just irks me that new players are getting in for $50, and I’ll effectively be paying $100.

Yes but you’ve played the game for 1-3 years and they haven’t.

That’s like being angry that you’ve had to pay for petrol for the last 3 years because your friend only just bought a car.

rainbowstylin.1358:

Halvaard.1034:

I bought my game at launch, I get no refund.
My investment is $50 base game, plus gem shop items.
My friends all got their base games summer 2014, on sale, they get no refunds either.

I understand that games like this have operating costs, but I’m still not convinced an expansion warrants another $49.99 out of me.

New Players get everything for $50, so I still think veterans deserve a slight discount.

You bought the game at launch, surely you’ve gotten atleast $50 worth of entertainment out of it since then? Which is what the cost justifies.

How do people miss the boat on entertainment value?

Hmm… I don’t know. Maybe it’s because they have provided more for the buck when they had a smaller game studio and less money and time and still managed to create completely new continents with scrupulous amounts of skills for every class and 2 new classes each expansion with waves of new titles and achievements and events to go with them for the same price in Guild Wars 1? Yeah, that might be it.

It also might be that they provided these past 2 years perfectly fine with just the gem shop and base purchases, enough to make the base game free!
Let’s go over what they provided to $60 from the base purchase:
Ascalon: 6 zones 1 city 2 dungeons
Shiverpeak Mountains: 6 zones 1 city 2 dungeons
Kryta 6 zones 2 cities 1 dungeon
Maguuma Jungle: 6 zones 2 cities 2 dungeons
Orr: the weird odd one out, with just 3 zones and 1 dungeon.

Look at how much game with just sheer size we got for $60. The money made from the base game and gem sales lasted them years and it is still kicking. So why this $50 tag on a map and a class? You are not gonna justify $50 for 1 map and a class with map size based on what we’ve gotten in Maguuma Wastes.

I also feel that the reason why the have not shed much light on the expansion is purely because they are unsure how much will actually be finished upon release and/or what you see is what you get, and both scenarios worry me.

I REALLY want this game to do well. I think it the best mmorpg out there at the moment, but it is really getting hard to justify that title anymore.

And for the record, the reason why people moan and complain on the forums is 90% of the time out of love for the game. Nobody comes here to complain just to troll people. People genuinely care about the game and its story and most people understand if everyone went ahead with the “Don’t buy it then” guy’s advice, all of the game would just crumble and this lore and story will just slip away within a year’s time into nothing.

People WANT this game/expansion to be WORTH that $50 tag or the $60 tag or the $70 tag. If they came out with expansions like they did in Guild Wars 1 I would have this pre-ordered day 1. Don’t even have to give me info, just surprise me baby cuz I know it’s gonna good and it’s gonna be worth every cent.

But this is not the case. This isn’t a full continent with all the aforementioned features and additions to the game like in Guild Wars 1. This is the cost of the base game for a single class and a single map (so far).

So I believe what the OP is asking for is “What is making this worth the $50?”.

DistantStatic.6098:

But this is not the case. This isn’t a full continent with all the aforementioned features and additions to the game like in Guild Wars 1. This is the cost of the base game for a single class and a single map (so far).

So I believe what the OP is asking for is “What is making this worth the $50?”.

This is also an issue, the value just isn’t there yet.
If there’s more to come I’d gladly pre-purchase but as it stands I’ll wait, for more info or a sale.

can i get the core so i can give it to someone else cuz i already own the core

Halvaard.1034:

DistantStatic.6098:

But this is not the case. This isn’t a full continent with all the aforementioned features and additions to the game like in Guild Wars 1. This is the cost of the base game for a single class and a single map (so far).

So I believe what the OP is asking for is “What is making this worth the $50?”.

This is also an issue, the value just isn’t there yet.
If there’s more to come I’d gladly pre-purchase but as it stands I’ll wait, for more info or a sale.

Yes, the secrecy and lack of future insight is what is throwing most people off of pre-ordering or even buying it until a sale. It’s a safe business choice for them since they aren’t throwing down big promises so if all else fails, they just give us this short change of content and nothing more. Not to mention it’s not been fully talked about on how expansion players and non-expansion players will interact with the new story. For example, if a city gets attacked again, will non-expansion players be part of that or not? Will they be subject to the same interactions on the map as the expansion players? What about map instances in the base game? Is there going to be different map instances for expansion changed maps? These are game design points that should have already been discussed throughout development since we are 20 days from release and currently beta testing. These are also things that will influence my purchase greatly based on different points. There’s just such a lack of information on the technical side which there is no reason for; it’s not spoiling story. All it shows is that everything is up in the air with them and they are winging this whole expansion. Very concerning.

Coulter.2315:

I think games journalists clearly need to work harder so that their audiences know what their terms mean – they are walking away with just incorrect definitions.

DLC – this is downloadable content (which most things are literally but its not used to describe just “stuff I download”), used by journalists to describe negatively things that were cut out of the sold game to sell to you later. HoT clearly does not fit this description – unless you believe all the things in HoT were actually constructed 3 years ago and they forgot about it…

that’s not a believe, it’s a fact.
you can even see it in their own trailers, the trailers of 3 years ago clearly shows stuff you never saw for the past 2.5 years.
only after 2.5 years they started adding stuff you see in the trailers, they sell it as “new” and make a story around it.

the difference is that i am not blind on hype, i am a realist looking at facts.
you see something new, i see something delayed for 2.5 years, that’s at least 2 years to long.

Q: Can we still continue with the basic game experience, i.e. guild participation, even if we don’t buy HoT?
That is, do we absolutely need HoT to enter Guild Halls, use GvG arenas and do instanced guild missions?

DistantStatic.6098:

Hmm… I don’t know. Maybe it’s because they have provided more for the buck when they had a smaller game studio and less money and time and still managed to create completely new continents with scrupulous amounts of skills for every class and 2 new classes each expansion with waves of new titles and achievements and events to go with them for the same price in Guild Wars 1? Yeah, that might be it.

Different games. You can’t really compare making the first game to the second.

DistantStatic.6098:

You are not gonna justify $50 for 1 map and a class with map size based on what we’ve gotten in Maguuma Wastes.

DistantStatic.6098:

This is the cost of the base game for a single class and a single map (so far).

I’m not going to bother to address the rest until you do some actual research into what the expansion contains. You know, the kind of research that shows you actually know what you’re talking about. We’re getting more than a single map.

Lol…..everyone calm down. Anet is just trying to cash in ASAP. You see that the game was often sold for 10…a FRACTION of the original cost. Why? Well simple: people are getting incredibly bored of this game. They will further realize this when their HoT profits don’t match up to their expected amount.

If you only want HoT and not the core game, wait about a month after its launch, maybe sooner. The more players who stand up to this insult, the more Anet will realize it. They are dying off as it is. Without your core gamers, you won’t last past Christmas.

twojackson.5607:

Lol…..everyone calm down. Anet is just trying to cash in ASAP. You see that the game was often sold for 10…a FRACTION of the original cost. Why? Well simple: people are getting incredibly bored of this game. They will further realize this when their HoT profits don’t match up to their expected amount.

If you only want HoT and not the core game, wait about a month after its launch, maybe sooner. The more players who stand up to this insult, the more Anet will realize it. They are dying off as it is. Without your core gamers, you won’t last past Christmas.

People have made these “GW2 is dying” claims in the past with their predictions and so far none of them have turned out to be true.

Ayrilana.1396:

I’m not going to bother to address the rest until you do some actual research into what the expansion contains. You know, the kind of research that shows you actually know what you’re talking about. We’re getting more than a single map.

If you are correct I’ll happily buy it, so reveal your sources oh container of facts!

Halvaard.1034:

Ayrilana.1396:

I’m not going to bother to address the rest until you do some actual research into what the expansion contains. You know, the kind of research that shows you actually know what you’re talking about. We’re getting more than a single map.

If you are correct I’ll happily buy it, so reveal your sources oh container of facts!

If a person have read so little info that s/he think the expansion is just 1 new class and 1 new map then they deserve that kind of response.
If you want information its out there check the news section on gw2 homepage just a tip mate.

forum bug

bug bug

Halvaard.1034:

Ayrilana.1396:

I’m not going to bother to address the rest until you do some actual research into what the expansion contains. You know, the kind of research that shows you actually know what you’re talking about. We’re getting more than a single map.

If you are correct I’ll happily buy it, so reveal your sources oh container of facts!

O, ye of little research, here you go: http://heartofthorns.guildwars2.com/en-gb/game/maguuma

Scroll down to ‘THE JUNGLE’, and prepare to purchase! =)

Good luck.

Here’s what’s going on right now, they are just trying to sell it asap and for as much as they can. ALOT of players who bought it didn’t even know what they are getting because finding that info needs a research which is so stupid and should be right at the purchase screen…

It took me 2h to find out what are the expansion includes and that Core players are actually not getting a thing from the expansion which i was sure that core player are getting at least the masteries from the way it sounded.

So yes basically a quick cash grab while no one is really sure.

Other than that 50% for so little content is way too much when i bought the core game when it came out i didn’t feel sorry at all but after buying HoT and playing the beta weekends i feel like i got totally screwed. The new areas are much easier then the current Orr maps, the 4 new maps are more like 1 big map with 3 floors quite alot to do in them but surly not 1k+ hours i got from the core game.

So for those who didn’t buy it yet..just wait for a sale which wouldn’t take long for new players it’s a STEAL for even 50$ but for vets it’s nothing but a kick in the sack.

Zenatsu.2930:

Here’s what’s going on right now, they are just trying to sell it asap and for as much as they can. ALOT of players who bought it didn’t even know what they are getting because finding that info needs a research which is so stupid and should be right at the purchase screen…

It took me 2h to find out what are the expansion includes and that Core players are actually not getting a thing from the expansion which i was sure that core player are getting at least the masteries from the way it sounded.

So yes basically a quick cash grab while no one is really sure.

Other than that 50% for so little content is way too much when i bought the core game when it came out i didn’t feel sorry at all but after buying HoT and playing the beta weekends i feel like i got totally screwed. The new areas are much easier then the current Orr maps, the 4 new maps are more like 1 big map with 3 floors quite alot to do in them but surly not 1k+ hours i got from the core game.

So for those who didn’t buy it yet..just wait for a sale which wouldn’t take long for new players it’s a STEAL for even 50$ but for vets it’s nothing but a kick in the sack.

No were have they said core owners would get masteries.

They have said masteries are hot only but core world will have their own masteries to train when your there.

you have seen what 25% of the first map so your saying 25% is as big as 25% of a normal map so and then 3 layers of each.

Thats 12 new maps then.

About the difficult of maps they say its some bug that make it way easier then it should be multiple threads about that mate.

Zenatsu.2930:

Core players are actually not getting a thing from the expansion.

Everyone gets what they pay for regarding the expansion. If you choose not to buy it of course you dont get it. I wont be buying HoT so I wont have access to HoT. I havent bought the new model year of my car so I drive the old one.

As to masteries…what would a character who cant go to the HoT maps do with masteries that, other than the new legendary crafting, can only be used in HoT maps?

Ayrilana.1396:

DistantStatic.6098:

Hmm… I don’t know. Maybe it’s because they have provided more for the buck when they had a smaller game studio and less money and time and still managed to create completely new continents with scrupulous amounts of skills for every class and 2 new classes each expansion with waves of new titles and achievements and events to go with them for the same price in Guild Wars 1? Yeah, that might be it.

Different games. You can’t really compare making the first game to the second.

Same game studio, same team (larger now), same game name… Only differences are a newer game engine (They had a “new” game engine when GW1 came out as well). And you very well can. Especially when you have more man power now. Don’t talk unless you’ve actually been part of any real software development process.

DistantStatic.6098:

DistantStatic.6098:

You are not gonna justify $50 for 1 map and a class with map size based on what we’ve gotten in Maguuma Wastes.

DistantStatic.6098:

This is the cost of the base game for a single class and a single map (so far).

I’m not going to bother to address the rest until you do some actual research into what the expansion contains. You know, the kind of research that shows you actually know what you’re talking about. We’re getting more than a single map.

Yo, true, we’re getting some pets, and…. that’s about it. Some small stuff sprinkled around. “Icing on the cake”. That’s not what you buy expansions for. You don’t buy expansions for the insignificant extras, just like anything else you might buy. You don’t buy a new car for a new car seat for example. If you feel that is a responsible use of your money then I have nothing to say to you and you shouldn’t bother addressing me.

Ashen.2907:

Zenatsu.2930:

Core players are actually not getting a thing from the expansion.

Everyone gets what they pay for regarding the expansion. If you choose not to buy it of course you dont get it. I wont be buying HoT so I wont have access to HoT. I havent bought the new model year of my car so I drive the old one.

As to masteries…what would a character who cant go to the HoT maps do with masteries that, other than the new legendary crafting, can only be used in HoT maps?

Ashen dont forget fractal of the mist mastery line and the pact commander line is nice aswell for the QoL improvements

Linken.6345:

Ashen.2907:

Zenatsu.2930:

Core players are actually not getting a thing from the expansion.

Everyone gets what they pay for regarding the expansion. If you choose not to buy it of course you dont get it. I wont be buying HoT so I wont have access to HoT. I havent bought the new model year of my car so I drive the old one.

As to masteries…what would a character who cant go to the HoT maps do with masteries that, other than the new legendary crafting, can only be used in HoT maps?

Ashen dont forget fractal of the mist mastery line and the pact commander line is nice aswell for the QoL improvements

My mistake.

Still, developed as part of the multimillion dollar cost to produce HoT, so it seems reasonable to have a price tag I suppose.

DistantStatic.6098:

Same game studio, same team (larger now), same game name… Only differences are a newer game engine (They had a “new” game engine when GW1 came out as well). And you very well can. Especially when you have more man power now. Don’t talk unless you’ve actually been part of any real software development process.

Play GW1, or if you already have, and tell me if the maps are the same as those in GW2. There’s not at all the same. The GW1 maps were very bare with hardly anything to do in them. There are no events, the maps have no vertical space, and the walk-able areas are much much smaller than in GW2. The combat system is also vastly different as playing both games is night and day.

DistantStatic.6098:

Yo, true, we’re getting some pets, and…. that’s about it. Some small stuff sprinkled around. “Icing on the cake”. That’s not what you buy expansions for. You don’t buy expansions for the insignificant extras, just like anything else you might buy. You don’t buy a new car for a new car seat for example. If you feel that is a responsible use of your money then I have nothing to say to you and you shouldn’t bother addressing me.

Perhaps you should do research yourself and see what all is included in the expansion. Cherry picking something like new pets and using that as an irrefutable proof to back your claim is a little ridiculous.

Zenatsu.2930:

Here’s what’s going on right now, they are just trying to sell it asap and for as much as they can. ALOT of players who bought it didn’t even know what they are getting because finding that info needs a research which is so stupid and should be right at the purchase screen…

It took me 2h to find out what are the expansion includes and that Core players are actually not getting a thing from the expansion which i was sure that core player are getting at least the masteries from the way it sounded.

So yes basically a quick cash grab while no one is really sure.

They’ve been having blogs, livestreams, there’s the wiki, gamer sites, the official HoT website, and so on that have all of that information. I find the two hours that you claim to be an exaggeration. It was never stated that the core players would get masteries and it was made quite clear from the beginning. I don’t know how you got confused and thought otherwise.

Zenatsu.2930:

Other than that 50% for so little content is way too much when i bought the core game when it came out i didn’t feel sorry at all but after buying HoT and playing the beta weekends i feel like i got totally screwed. The new areas are much easier then the current Orr maps, the 4 new maps are more like 1 big map with 3 floors quite alot to do in them but surly not 1k+ hours i got from the core game.

Let me guess, you played a single beta, that consist of an intentionally incomplete map, and believe that you have the entire expansion nailed down? This is the fourth beta that I have played and the expansion zones are much more difficult than Orr.

I also don’t see where you got the idea that the four new maps are like one big map with 3 floors as they’ve only showed one map in the betas and we still haven’t seen roots layer yet.

Honestly most veteran players are looking for end-game content and as of yet there is just not enough new content for the current price of this expansion. I mean, I’d glady pay the €50 if it’s worth it, no problem. The thing is I ate the cake and I want the cherries however they’re making me pay for the cake AGAIN and adding cherries.
That’s complete BS.

Ayrilana.1396:

DistantStatic.6098:

Same game studio, same team (larger now), same game name… Only differences are a newer game engine (They had a “new” game engine when GW1 came out as well). And you very well can. Especially when you have more man power now. Don’t talk unless you’ve actually been part of any real software development process.

Play GW1, or if you already have, and tell me if the maps are the same as those in GW2. There’s not at all the same. The GW1 maps were very bare with hardly anything to do in them. There are no events, the maps have no vertical space, and the walk-able areas are much much smaller than in GW2. The combat system is also vastly different as playing both games is night and day.

DistantStatic.6098:

Yo, true, we’re getting some pets, and…. that’s about it. Some small stuff sprinkled around. “Icing on the cake”. That’s not what you buy expansions for. You don’t buy expansions for the insignificant extras, just like anything else you might buy. You don’t buy a new car for a new car seat for example. If you feel that is a responsible use of your money then I have nothing to say to you and you shouldn’t bother addressing me.

Perhaps you should do research yourself and see what all is included in the expansion. Cherry picking something like new pets and using that as an irrefutable proof to back your claim is a little ridiculous.

Zenatsu.2930:

Here’s what’s going on right now, they are just trying to sell it asap and for as much as they can. ALOT of players who bought it didn’t even know what they are getting because finding that info needs a research which is so stupid and should be right at the purchase screen…

It took me 2h to find out what are the expansion includes and that Core players are actually not getting a thing from the expansion which i was sure that core player are getting at least the masteries from the way it sounded.

So yes basically a quick cash grab while no one is really sure.

They’ve been having blogs, livestreams, there’s the wiki, gamer sites, the official HoT website, and so on that have all of that information. I find the two hours that you claim to be an exaggeration. It was never stated that the core players would get masteries and it was made quite clear from the beginning. I don’t know how you got confused and thought otherwise.

Zenatsu.2930:

Other than that 50% for so little content is way too much when i bought the core game when it came out i didn’t feel sorry at all but after buying HoT and playing the beta weekends i feel like i got totally screwed. The new areas are much easier then the current Orr maps, the 4 new maps are more like 1 big map with 3 floors quite alot to do in them but surly not 1k+ hours i got from the core game.

Let me guess, you played a single beta, that consist of an intentionally incomplete map, and believe that you have the entire expansion nailed down? This is the fourth beta that I have played and the expansion zones are much more difficult than Orr.

I also don’t see where you got the idea that the four new maps are like one big map with 3 floors as they’ve only showed one map in the betas and we still haven’t seen roots layer yet.

How ignorant are you? This is getting to the point where you’re flat out lying and ignoring facts and not reading what I have said in my previous posts (or you can’t put 1 and 1 together). I put in 3k hours into Guild Wars 1. There was more than plenty to do. Even with 3k hours I could not even come close to competing all the quests, let alone getting deep into the various areas of play; UW, FOW, Urgoz, Deep, competitive missions, skill hunting, ACTUAL GUILD FIGHTS, etc…. You have 0 idea where this game came from and you need to sit down and stop talking. There was plenty to do in the GW1 maps and much of it wasn’t just shoved in front of you. Plenty of side storylines that went on, plenty of lore; the world was alive. There is no comparison and no question that story-wise and content-wise GW1 was superior. Only thing lacking, was the vertical movement and combat system which is in all honesty up in the air. We currently have a huge lack of depth in combat, but have a dodge system + movement that actually matters.

Point still stands, they created living breathing continents and added depth to combat (through additional skills and classes) and much much more for the same price, in less time, and smaller team.

You are literally flipping out about an expansions that adds maybe a dozen skills, 1 new class, a single map, and 4-5 pets (the pets are actually really cool and long overdue, but so is everything else in this expansion). Really?

Like I said before, if you are the type of person that throws their money around irresponsibly, well that’s your problem. But for the rest of us, we want to know what our money is going into and if this is it, we aren’t buying it for $50, much less anything higher, and let alone pre-order. And if you believe this is enough information on the HoT site, I have an uncle in Africa who has 800 million dollars locked up in a bank account….

Ayrilana.1396:

DistantStatic.6098:

Same game studio, same team (larger now), same game name… Only differences are a newer game engine (They had a “new” game engine when GW1 came out as well). And you very well can. Especially when you have more man power now. Don’t talk unless you’ve actually been part of any real software development process.

Play GW1, or if you already have, and tell me if the maps are the same as those in GW2. There’s not at all the same. The GW1 maps were very bare with hardly anything to do in them. There are no events, the maps have no vertical space, and the walk-able areas are much much smaller than in GW2. The combat system is also vastly different as playing both games is night and day.

DistantStatic.6098:

Yo, true, we’re getting some pets, and…. that’s about it. Some small stuff sprinkled around. “Icing on the cake”. That’s not what you buy expansions for. You don’t buy expansions for the insignificant extras, just like anything else you might buy. You don’t buy a new car for a new car seat for example. If you feel that is a responsible use of your money then I have nothing to say to you and you shouldn’t bother addressing me.

Perhaps you should do research yourself and see what all is included in the expansion. Cherry picking something like new pets and using that as an irrefutable proof to back your claim is a little ridiculous.

Zenatsu.2930:

Here’s what’s going on right now, they are just trying to sell it asap and for as much as they can. ALOT of players who bought it didn’t even know what they are getting because finding that info needs a research which is so stupid and should be right at the purchase screen…

It took me 2h to find out what are the expansion includes and that Core players are actually not getting a thing from the expansion which i was sure that core player are getting at least the masteries from the way it sounded.

So yes basically a quick cash grab while no one is really sure.

They’ve been having blogs, livestreams, there’s the wiki, gamer sites, the official HoT website, and so on that have all of that information. I find the two hours that you claim to be an exaggeration. It was never stated that the core players would get masteries and it was made quite clear from the beginning. I don’t know how you got confused and thought otherwise.

Zenatsu.2930:

Other than that 50% for so little content is way too much when i bought the core game when it came out i didn’t feel sorry at all but after buying HoT and playing the beta weekends i feel like i got totally screwed. The new areas are much easier then the current Orr maps, the 4 new maps are more like 1 big map with 3 floors quite alot to do in them but surly not 1k+ hours i got from the core game.

Let me guess, you played a single beta, that consist of an intentionally incomplete map, and believe that you have the entire expansion nailed down? This is the fourth beta that I have played and the expansion zones are much more difficult than Orr.

I also don’t see where you got the idea that the four new maps are like one big map with 3 floors as they’ve only showed one map in the betas and we still haven’t seen roots layer yet.

when he says map, you think about zones.
hes basically saying it adds maguma jungle, which is one region. for comparison gw1 generally added 4-5 regions per campaign.

they also added substantially more skills, twice as many new classes, and a story much larger than season 1+2

phys.7689:

when he says map, you think about zones.
hes basically saying it adds maguma jungle, which is one region. for comparison gw1 generally added 4-5 regions per campaign.

they also added substantially more skills, twice as many new classes, and a story much larger than season 1+2

Different games and different combat systems. Like comparing Mario 3 maps to Mario 64 maps. Since you brought up story, I’d say that both season 1 and 2 story exceeds that of Factions and EotM. I’m undecided about Nightfall.

DistantStatic.6098:

How ignorant are you? This is getting to the point where you’re flat out lying and ignoring facts and not reading what I have said in my previous posts (or you can’t put 1 and 1 together). I put in 3k hours into Guild Wars 1. There was more than plenty to do. Even with 3k hours I could not even come close to competing all the quests, let alone getting deep into the various areas of play; UW, FOW, Urgoz, Deep, competitive missions, skill hunting, ACTUAL GUILD FIGHTS, etc…. You have 0 idea where this game came from and you need to sit down and stop talking. There was plenty to do in the GW1 maps and much of it wasn’t just shoved in front of you. Plenty of side storylines that went on, plenty of lore; the world was alive. There is no comparison and no question that story-wise and content-wise GW1 was superior. Only thing lacking, was the vertical movement and combat system which is in all honesty up in the air. We currently have a huge lack of depth in combat, but have a dodge system + movement that actually matters.

Ignorant? Ignoring the facts? Who’s the one still arguing that the expansion only has one map?

Congrats on putting in 3K hours in GW1. Actually, with 3K hours, you can come very close to doing everything excluding maxing a few of the grindy titles such as PvP and Factions. I re-bought the series last year and I’ve got legendary cartographer, vanquisher, and skill hunter. Now that I have gotten those, I have zero reason to go to any of the maps again. One of the reasons why I quit the last time before EotN since I got bored. How many times do you think someone could do the elite missions/maps before they got bored?

I am fully aware of where this game came from but you’re missing the point. None of those maps were as involved and GW2 maps. The walk-able area of the GW1 maps were very small compared to GW2 maps. I think you’ve allowed yourself to be blinded by nostalgia that you just can’t see that there is a difference between the two games.

DistantStatic.6098:

Point still stands, they created living breathing continents and added depth to combat (through additional skills and classes) and much much more for the same price, in less time, and smaller team.

Anet is adding depth to content through elite specializations and enemies with more involving mechanics. We seen them doing this so far with LS2 and the beta content. You’re probably a quantity over quality type of person. GW1 maps were very small compared to GW2 maps and less involved. GW2 maps, especially the ones for the upcoming expansion, take much more effort to create. Maybe you should play a few GW1 maps again and then run through a few GW2 maps. They’re not the same.

DistantStatic.6098:

You are literally flipping out about an expansions that adds maybe a dozen skills, 1 new class, a single map, and 4-5 pets (the pets are actually really cool and long overdue, but so is everything else in this expansion). Really?

Flipping out? The only one who’s been flipping out so far is you. A single map? I guess that explains everything and I should’ve read your entire post at once rather than address it as a I read it. Otherwise I would not have bothered to make such a response to you.

There is more than one map in the expansion. Had you been following along with the news updates, or checked the HoT website, you would know this. I suggest that you do some research and look at exactly what HoT includes.

Actually, I just looked back and I did call you out on you being ignorant about what the expansion contains. You are still making the argument that the expansion only claims a single maps and a few pets.

Please do your research. You’ll be very surprised about what it contains if you truly believe it only has a single map and a few pets. Thanks.

DistantStatic.6098:

Like I said before, if you are the type of person that throws their money around irresponsibly, well that’s your problem. But for the rest of us, we want to know what our money is going into and if this is it, we aren’t buying it for $50, much less anything higher, and let alone pre-order. And if you believe this is enough information on the HoT site, I have an uncle in Africa who has 800 million dollars locked up in a bank account….

So everyone who bought the expansion, feeling that it was worth the cost to them, is throwing their money away and being irresponsible because YOU feel that it’s not worth the cost? Since when did you have the right to determine what is and isn’t worth something for everyone?

There’s more information on the HoT site, through the blogs, interviews, live streams, and so on than there had been for Factions and Nightfall and possibly GW2. I can’t comment about EotM since I quit a few weeks before it launched and didn’t think about starting up with GW2 until a couple weeks before it released. People have bought console games with less information. How many people do you think went and pre-ordered Fallout 4 based solely on what was announced? I guess they’re all irresponsible too…

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zone
29 for 50>3 for 50.
9 classes>1
5 trait lines with more traits in each per class for 2 years>1 P2W line that is really the only reason to buy currently unless you like raids or something.
Tons of dungeons with multiple paths/fractals/world bosses>Instanced raid bosses with probably the same loot with different cosmetic looks.
Vanilla WoW Alterac Valley>Alterac Valley lite-mini from the looks of it.
Masteries that matter are free I’m pretty sure and so is the WvW map, not seeing what is worth 50 besides the P2W aspect of elite specializations, please don’t act like ANet can balance anything. I haven’t even played in a year and I’m sure there are tons of class bugs from beta still in it but surely they will balance this obvious power creep in 3 weeks.

Ayrilana.1396:

DistantStatic.6098:

How ignorant are you? This is getting to the point where you’re flat out lying and ignoring facts and not reading what I have said in my previous posts (or you can’t put 1 and 1 together). I put in 3k hours into Guild Wars 1. There was more than plenty to do. Even with 3k hours I could not even come close to competing all the quests, let alone getting deep into the various areas of play; UW, FOW, Urgoz, Deep, competitive missions, skill hunting, ACTUAL GUILD FIGHTS, etc…. You have 0 idea where this game came from and you need to sit down and stop talking. There was plenty to do in the GW1 maps and much of it wasn’t just shoved in front of you. Plenty of side storylines that went on, plenty of lore; the world was alive. There is no comparison and no question that story-wise and content-wise GW1 was superior. Only thing lacking, was the vertical movement and combat system which is in all honesty up in the air. We currently have a huge lack of depth in combat, but have a dodge system + movement that actually matters.

Ignorant? Ignoring the facts? Who’s the one still arguing that the expansion only has one map?

Congrats on putting in 3K hours in GW1. Actually, with 3K hours, you can come very close to doing everything excluding maxing a few of the grindy titles such as PvP and Factions. I re-bought the series last year and I’ve got legendary cartographer, vanquisher, and skill hunter. Now that I have gotten those, I have zero reason to go to any of the maps again. One of the reasons why I quit the last time before EotN since I got bored. How many times do you think someone could do the elite missions/maps before they got bored?

I am fully aware of where this game came from but you’re missing the point. None of those maps were as involved and GW2 maps. The walk-able area of the GW1 maps were very small compared to GW2 maps. I think you’ve allowed yourself to be blinded by nostalgia that you just can’t see that there is a difference between the two games.

DistantStatic.6098:

Point still stands, they created living breathing continents and added depth to combat (through additional skills and classes) and much much more for the same price, in less time, and smaller team.

Anet is adding depth to content through elite specializations and enemies with more involving mechanics. We seen them doing this so far with LS2 and the beta content. You’re probably a quantity over quality type of person. GW1 maps were very small compared to GW2 maps and less involved. GW2 maps, especially the ones for the upcoming expansion, take much more effort to create. Maybe you should play a few GW1 maps again and then run through a few GW2 maps. They’re not the same.

DistantStatic.6098:

You are literally flipping out about an expansions that adds maybe a dozen skills, 1 new class, a single map, and 4-5 pets (the pets are actually really cool and long overdue, but so is everything else in this expansion). Really?

Flipping out? The only one who’s been flipping out so far is you. A single map? I guess that explains everything and I should’ve read your entire post at once rather than address it as a I read it. Otherwise I would not have bothered to make such a response to you.

There is more than one map in the expansion. Had you been following along with the news updates, or checked the HoT website, you would know this. I suggest that you do some research and look at exactly what HoT includes.

Actually, I just looked back and I did call you out on you being ignorant about what the expansion contains. You are still making the argument that the expansion only claims a single maps and a few pets.

Please do your research. You’ll be very surprised about what it contains if you truly believe it only has a single map and a few pets. Thanks.

DistantStatic.6098:

Like I said before, if you are the type of person that throws their money around irresponsibly, well that’s your problem. But for the rest of us, we want to know what our money is going into and if this is it, we aren’t buying it for $50, much less anything higher, and let alone pre-order. And if you believe this is enough information on the HoT site, I have an uncle in Africa who has 800 million dollars locked up in a bank account….

So everyone who bought the expansion, feeling that it was worth the cost to them, is throwing their money away and being irresponsible because YOU feel that it’s not worth the cost? Since when did you have the right to determine what is and isn’t worth something for everyone?

There’s more information on the HoT site, through the blogs, interviews, live streams, and so on than there had been for Factions and Nightfall and possibly GW2. I can’t comment about EotM since I quit a few weeks before it launched and didn’t think about starting up with GW2 until a couple weeks before it released. People have bought console games with less information. How many people do you think went and pre-ordered Fallout 4 based solely on what was announced? I guess they’re all irresponsible too…

>I’ve got legendary cartographer, vanquisher, and skill hunter. Now that I have gotten those, I have zero reason to go to any of the maps again.

Yeah, I mean hoelbrak is definitely brimming with activity. So’s the citidel. Oh wait, those are entire cities not even maps. Rata Sum? Wasn’t there since Adventure box ended. Divinities reach? Story purposes, then never went there again. Oh those are entire cities not meant just for exploration purposes which are entirely breezed over by most people? I see you’re glazing over my point on the abundance of side quests (see? you’re ignoring things ). There is literally no reason to go into any map anymore other than for World bosses and… yeah that’s about it. The equivalent of farming bosses in GW1 for boss weapons. At least you had to venture through the map in GW1 not just waypoint onto the boss, kill it and leave. Yeah, you’re right, we use that 1/20th of the map for background scenery while killing the World Boss.

>Anet is adding depth to content through elite specializations and enemies with more involving mechanics. We seen them doing this so far with LS2 and the beta content.

Heeyyy look at you glazing over things I’ve mentioned!

>You’ll be very surprised about what it contains if you truly believe it only has a single map and a few pets.

It can contain 6 kitten maps; it still wont match the base game content. Speaking of research since you seem to be oblivious of life: http://heartofthorns.guildwars2.com/game/maguuma Theres only one map. “Oh but 3 floooorrrss brrroooooooooo” Lol, ok “3” maps.

>So everyone who bought the expansion, feeling that it was worth the cost to them

Well, you can go browse the HoT threads and see all the negative response to the content in the beta.

> People have bought console games with less information. How many people do you think went and pre-ordered Fallout 4 based solely on what was announced? I guess they’re all irresponsible too…

OH MAN ANOTHER GLAZING IM BECOMING A DONUT WITH GLAZE. A GLAZED DONUT LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. Clearly you missed the first post where certain games have a good “history” and reputation and how I mentioned that if they had said this was Guild Wars 1 type of expansion I would have this pre-pre-ordered (persay). But no. Judging on how their definition of what “new areas” has been over the end of the living story, and given the current information, this is not one of those buy-it-now situations.

You can say whatever you want to make yourself feel better about putting down the cash and try to convince yourself that you made a good purchase all you want. I ain’t gonna stop you anymore. You clearly need the therapeutic benefits.

DistantStatic.6098:

>I’ve got legendary cartographer, vanquisher, and skill hunter. Now that I have gotten those, I have zero reason to go to any of the maps again.

Yeah, I mean hoelbrak is definitely brimming with activity. So’s the citidel. Oh wait, those are entire cities not even maps. Rata Sum? Wasn’t there since Adventure box ended. Divinities reach? Story purposes, then never went there again. Oh those are entire cities not meant just for exploration purposes which are entirely breezed over by most people?

Is there even a point to this or are you just throwing in random comments?

DistantStatic.6098:

I see you’re glazing over my point on the abundance of side quests (see? you’re ignoring things ). There is literally no reason to go into any map anymore other than for World bosses and… yeah that’s about it. The equivalent of farming bosses in GW1 for boss weapons. At least you had to venture through the map in GW1 not just waypoint onto the boss, kill it and leave. Yeah, you’re right, we use that 1/20th of the map for background scenery while killing the World Boss.

I didn’t mention it because it wasn’t important. All the quests did was have you go to a specific map, do something, and then report back to the NPC. They didn’t really add anything and the majority were not worth doing.

Bosses possessing certain drops have no relevance to the difference between GW1 and GW2 maps which was what I stated a page or so back. Both games have this so bringing it up is rather pointless.

The point is that GW2 maps are much more active as they have much for area to explore, there’s vertical space, and plenty of events to do. When you look at the HoT maps, they’re just like this but with much more. GW1 maps did not have this as they were much simpler.

DistantStatic.6098:

>Anet is adding depth to content through elite specializations and enemies with more involving mechanics. We seen them doing this so far with LS2 and the beta content.

Heeyyy look at you glazing over things I’ve mentioned!

Nope. You’re just cherry picking what the expansion contains to fit your argument. According to you it only contains a single map and a few pets. Completely wrong.

DistantStatic.6098:

>You’ll be very surprised about what it contains if you truly believe it only has a single map and a few pets.

It can contain 6 kitten maps; it still wont match the base game content. Speaking of research since you seem to be oblivious of life: http://heartofthorns.guildwars2.com/game/maguuma Theres only one map. “Oh but 3 floooorrrss brrroooooooooo” Lol, ok “3” maps.

You have reading issues then since that very link points to there being four maps and not the one map you are still claiming. Good job!

DistantStatic.6098:

>So everyone who bought the expansion, feeling that it was worth the cost to them

Well, you can go browse the HoT threads and see all the negative response to the content in the beta.

Reading comprehension check. Read the above that I bolded. I wasn’t talking about those that haven’t yet.

DistantStatic.6098:

> People have bought console games with less information. How many people do you think went and pre-ordered Fallout 4 based solely on what was announced? I guess they’re all irresponsible too…

OH MAN ANOTHER GLAZING IM BECOMING A DONUT WITH GLAZE. A GLAZED DONUT LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. Clearly you missed the first post where certain games have a good “history” and reputation and how I mentioned that if they had said this was Guild Wars 1 type of expansion I would have this pre-pre-ordered (persay). But no. Judging on how their definition of what “new areas” has been over the end of the living story, and given the current information, this is not one of those buy-it-now situations.

Guild Wars 1 had good history. There’s no reason to assume GW2 was any different considering this was there first expansion. I could also use the argument that Factions and Nightfall do not count for comparison since they’re campaigns but I won’t.

DistantStatic.6098:

You can say whatever you want to make yourself feel better about putting down the cash and try to convince yourself that you made a good purchase all you want. I ain’t gonna stop you anymore. You clearly need the therapeutic benefits.

Or you need to quit telling people what they should believe the expansion is worth when it’s something entirely up to them to decide.

I’ve attached something that should aid you in seeing how many maps there will be.

Ayrilana.1396:

I’ve attached something that should aid you in seeing how many maps there will be.

Whoa let me quickly recalculate the value of this. 29 for 50>4 for 50.

glaphen.5230:

Ayrilana.1396:

I’ve attached something that should aid you in seeing how many maps there will be.

Whoa let me quickly recalculate the value of this. 29 for 50>4 for 50.

No expansion really provides the same amount of content as its core game. If quantity is all that’s important to you then don’t buy the expansion, or any others, until the total amount of maps reaches 29.

Based on the maps that can be vanquished, since I don’t feel like counting them, Prophecies had 54 maps, Factions had 33 maps, Nightfall had 34 maps, EotN had 15 maps. All of those, especially EotN, contained less maps than Prophecies for roughly the same price. Clearly they were all a rip off.

Oh. Oh. Wait! Super Mario Bros 3 had 90 levels and Mario 64 only had 15. Wow! All of those that bought Mario 64 got ripped off!

Ayrilana.1396:

glaphen.5230:

Ayrilana.1396:

I’ve attached something that should aid you in seeing how many maps there will be.

Whoa let me quickly recalculate the value of this. 29 for 50>4 for 50.

No expansion really provides the same amount of content as its core game. If quantity is all that’s important to you then don’t buy the expansion, or any others, until the total amount of maps reaches 29.

Based on the maps that can be vanquished, since I don’t feel like counting them, Prophecies had 54 maps, Factions had 33 maps, Nightfall had 34 maps, EotN had 15 maps. All of those, especially EotN, contained less maps than Prophecies for roughly the same price. Clearly they were all a rip off.

Yes and then other games expansions usually add a fluff level cap increases to restart the grind and put in new skills and still have five times the content this has and are usually cheaper. Yet those games still had far more content than this and far cheaper.

glaphen.5230:

Ayrilana.1396:

glaphen.5230:

Ayrilana.1396:

I’ve attached something that should aid you in seeing how many maps there will be.

Whoa let me quickly recalculate the value of this. 29 for 50>4 for 50.

No expansion really provides the same amount of content as its core game. If quantity is all that’s important to you then don’t buy the expansion, or any others, until the total amount of maps reaches 29.

Based on the maps that can be vanquished, since I don’t feel like counting them, Prophecies had 54 maps, Factions had 33 maps, Nightfall had 34 maps, EotN had 15 maps. All of those, especially EotN, contained less maps than Prophecies for roughly the same price. Clearly they were all a rip off.

Yes and then other games expansions usually add a fluff level cap increases to restart the grind and put in new skills and still have five times the content this has and are usually cheaper. Yet those games still had far more content than this and far cheaper.

How do you know how much content the expansion has without playing it?

Ayrilana.1396:

glaphen.5230:

Ayrilana.1396:

glaphen.5230:

Ayrilana.1396:

I’ve attached something that should aid you in seeing how many maps there will be.

Whoa let me quickly recalculate the value of this. 29 for 50>4 for 50.

No expansion really provides the same amount of content as its core game. If quantity is all that’s important to you then don’t buy the expansion, or any others, until the total amount of maps reaches 29.

Based on the maps that can be vanquished, since I don’t feel like counting them, Prophecies had 54 maps, Factions had 33 maps, Nightfall had 34 maps, EotN had 15 maps. All of those, especially EotN, contained less maps than Prophecies for roughly the same price. Clearly they were all a rip off.

Yes and then other games expansions usually add a fluff level cap increases to restart the grind and put in new skills and still have five times the content this has and are usually cheaper. Yet those games still had far more content than this and far cheaper.

How do you know how much content the expansion has without playing it?

Because if you look at the link you posted you would see what it has.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2:_Heart_of_Thorns/Frequently_Asked_Questions#Features
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2:_Heart_of_Thorns
There’s some more answers. Hiding the contents of a purchase is a bad move so there is no way they have anything left unrevealed.

glaphen.5230:

Ayrilana.1396:

glaphen.5230:

Ayrilana.1396:

glaphen.5230:

Ayrilana.1396:

I’ve attached something that should aid you in seeing how many maps there will be.

Whoa let me quickly recalculate the value of this. 29 for 50>4 for 50.

No expansion really provides the same amount of content as its core game. If quantity is all that’s important to you then don’t buy the expansion, or any others, until the total amount of maps reaches 29.

Based on the maps that can be vanquished, since I don’t feel like counting them, Prophecies had 54 maps, Factions had 33 maps, Nightfall had 34 maps, EotN had 15 maps. All of those, especially EotN, contained less maps than Prophecies for roughly the same price. Clearly they were all a rip off.

Yes and then other games expansions usually add a fluff level cap increases to restart the grind and put in new skills and still have five times the content this has and are usually cheaper. Yet those games still had far more content than this and far cheaper.

How do you know how much content the expansion has without playing it?

Because if you look at the link you posted you would see what it has.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2:_Heart_of_Thorns/Frequently_Asked_Questions#Features
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2:_Heart_of_Thorns
There’s some more answers. Hiding the contents of a purchase is a bad move so there is no way they have anything left unrevealed.

Anet likes to leave things for players to discover. Not everything in the expansion has been revealed. The story is one example.

Ayrilana.1396:

glaphen.5230:

Ayrilana.1396:

glaphen.5230:

Ayrilana.1396:

glaphen.5230:

Ayrilana.1396:

I’ve attached something that should aid you in seeing how many maps there will be.

Whoa let me quickly recalculate the value of this. 29 for 50>4 for 50.

No expansion really provides the same amount of content as its core game. If quantity is all that’s important to you then don’t buy the expansion, or any others, until the total amount of maps reaches 29.

Based on the maps that can be vanquished, since I don’t feel like counting them, Prophecies had 54 maps, Factions had 33 maps, Nightfall had 34 maps, EotN had 15 maps. All of those, especially EotN, contained less maps than Prophecies for roughly the same price. Clearly they were all a rip off.

Yes and then other games expansions usually add a fluff level cap increases to restart the grind and put in new skills and still have five times the content this has and are usually cheaper. Yet those games still had far more content than this and far cheaper.

How do you know how much content the expansion has without playing it?

Because if you look at the link you posted you would see what it has.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2:_Heart_of_Thorns/Frequently_Asked_Questions#Features
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2:_Heart_of_Thorns
There’s some more answers. Hiding the contents of a purchase is a bad move so there is no way they have anything left unrevealed.

Anet likes to leave things for players to discover. Not everything in the expansion has been revealed. The story is one example.

If you feel fan fiction tier writing is worth the 50 then be my guest and use that to validate your purchase. Only thing ANet lets players discover are bugs that will never be fixed.

Ayrilana.1396:

phys.7689:

when he says map, you think about zones.
hes basically saying it adds maguma jungle, which is one region. for comparison gw1 generally added 4-5 regions per campaign.

they also added substantially more skills, twice as many new classes, and a story much larger than season 1+2

Different games and different combat systems. Like comparing Mario 3 maps to Mario 64 maps. Since you brought up story, I’d say that both season 1 and 2 story exceeds that of Factions and EotM. I’m undecided about Nightfall.

do you mean season 1+season2?
because season 2 probably takes like 4-5 hours tops to complete, whereas gw1 factions was more like 4 times that.

As for levels, at the end of the day, how much content people feel you have is more important than the cost of development. If people get more satisfaction from playing a 1993 final fantasy than a 2015 final fantasy, it means they have went backwards.

I will say that gw2 strengths are a more active combat system and a more engaging world map. But those thing existed since release, and it doesnt appear that Hot has evolved or improved on them much. It definately has not expanded either one that much.
basically the reason people complain is based on what is known now, hot is light for a 50 dollar dc, and light for a 50 dollar expansion. Thats basically what it really boils down to.