Guild Wars 2

It’s a problem with both. It’s shady and dishonest behavior from devs/publishers, sometimes even borderline (occasionally not just borderline) scamming. And careless spending and falling into the trappings of marketing hype for consumers, which servers to encourage the behavior from businesses.

Business don’t really have any incentive to stop the practice, because it gets them more money as long as people are falling for it. It would surely be hard to say no when people are screaming “shut up and take my money” at you. They aren’t going to stop until someone tells them “no, you can’t have my money yet”.

Consumers have all the incentive in the world to stop it, but way too many seem content to continue wasting money on products that aren’t function till months after release (or never are). If we stop giving them upfront money for ridiculous “incentives” that would otherwise be included in the game, we’d get the same products, for the same price, with much less risk and likely in a better condition.

Being a responsible consumer isn’t just for your own good, it’s for the good of every consumer.

Just bought Heart of Thorns Ultimate and I was under the impression that being a Veteran (played since launch) I would get a total of two extra character slots:

One from the Ultimate purchase
One from owning the Core game prior to a specific date

As it is, I only got 1 extra character slot and 4 beta slots.

Was I under the wrong assumption? Or is the Veteran Slot not active until HoT release?

Veteran slots are applied in batches, so you should get your second slot soonish.

I think I saw a post somewhere that said the bonus slot additions were given a pass once per week. If that’s right, you’ll have it in a week at most.

Hey ArenaNet
The current pre-order incentive is you get the base game for free if you purchase before release date. The base game itself comes with 5 character slots which any new player buying this package will get but the existing players will miss out on. I myself would like to upgrade and would be willing to purchase the pre-release package but on a new account solely to gain advantage of the character slots. But i was wondering if for existing players who purchase the pre-release package who would already have the base game, would you be able to give them the 5 character slots that would have been utilized by creating a new account. I believe this is a fair compromise and I don’t believe you (ArenaNet) would be losing money because if we created a new account we would have gained those slots anyway.

Everyone who reads this please share it with your friends, and anyone that would care. If enough people read and share then hopefully the right person may see it.
Thank You

Guys can some of you look at this… its is a thread i created for a possible pre-order compromise for veterans that i believe is quite fair. Lets see if we can make some noise and hopefully the right people will hear it.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Possible-Pre-Order-Compromise/first#post5398658

Nothing to compromise. Arena net already made the compromise and give veteran player a character slot. That was the compromise after people complain when HoT was up for pre purchase. They are not now going to change it to 5 character slots. Sorry.

Yes it is true that they compromised with 1 character slot but the base game defaults with 5… Im sure im not the only one that has noticed this so how hard can it be to just give us the slots that would have been utilized by creating a new account, and it is possible if enough people talk about it that they might change we will just have to see…

Your request is unreasonable, no point in pursuing it.

Will not happen I bet. Your time probably better spent farming gold to buy character slot. Good luck in your quest though.

How is it unreasonable?? if i may ask?? all im asking for is the content i would receive from the base game if i were to create a new account.

I’m not sure I see the ‘compromise’ part. It would be great for veterans, but what does it do for ArenaNet?

You can either have 5 slots, or retain your past years’ progress. This model was used back in GW1, as well, which is why I had several different accounts. More slots with new accounts, or less slots with linking the Campaigns to existing accounts.

Its a compromise because instead of giving us something we already own we can gain something that we can utilize, like the 5 character slots that we would have gotten with the base game.

Its unreasonable because the compromise was offered already a Month ago where they gave a character slot, you popping up a Month later and saying “I want 4 more” is just ridiculous.

Sorry i was away and wasnt able to voice my opinion… Im still gonna see what i can do though all im really doing is asking them a question, its not being ridiculous lol

A compromise is each side giving up something. What are players giving up that benefits ArenaNet? Your proposal seems very one-sided.

You are certainly welcome to create a new account with the Serial Key, that would afford you the 5 character slots.

If it’s a new account, it has enough slots for 5/9 of the professions. If it’s an existing account, it gets another slot on top of however many the account has previously purchased, and the account keeps all the upgrades — dye unlocks, bank slots, account bound crafting, skins no longer available, achievement bonuses to gold and magic find etc — along with all the AP gains over years of play. The reason the extra one slot is fair is that a lot of veterans don’t have empty slots and would either have to delete an alt or buy a new slot to play a revenant.

They really don’t need to give us more than that to keep it fair.

I could have bought a second account for ten bucks three different weekends. I elected not to, and have no regrets, because I have no interest in starting an account from scratch after 3 years of building up the one I have. I have … 18? … slots now, all but two in use. Two of those in use are for a revenant name place holder and another place holder to keep an RP alternate name for my secret agent mesmer. So maybe I’m not feeling your urgency as I’ve simply bought slots over the years as I felt the need.

Anyway, an established account has all sorts of bonuses that make it far more valuable than a new one so getting four extra slots is not actually in parity, it’s beyond it.

Viticus.8302:

Guys can some of you look at this… its is a thread i created for a possible pre-order compromise for veterans that i believe is quite fair. Lets see if we can make some noise and hopefully the right people will hear it.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Possible-Pre-Order-Compromise/first#post5398658

I already read your post and the replies. What you are proposing will never happen. If you already have the game, you have 5 core slots. If you apply HoT to a new account, then Anet gives you the same 5 core slots for free. Frankly, I think you should have to pay for those 5 slots just like I did when I bought the game a year and a half ago. You are getting the core game for free! How much more do you want? 10 core slots for vets?

Galen Grey.4709:

Is it really what Arenanet have show so far that doesnt live up to the price is it more what they havent shown people decided doesnt live up to the price even if its still unknown?

Let me explain what I mean…. What has Arenanet shown so far?

Masteries. A whole new progression system. It includes tracks for the new content and and this is key for the old content While every Expansion generally provides a progression system its generally limited to the new content released with that expansion. Not Gw2, its progression system spans both old a new content. So its safe to say progression in HoT exceeds progression in most expansions.

Every game that I have ever seen that has had an expansion including progression has allowed that progression to interact with/impact old content as well as new. This is nothing new in GW2.

Galen Grey.4709:

Elite specializations + Revenant. Elite specializations bring with them 1 new weapon, 1 new healing skill, 4 new utilities, 1 elite skill and 1 new trait line and 1 new mechanic. All in all this makes every elite specialization about 1/5 of a full profession ergo HoT essentially contains exactly the equivalent of 3 professions. Generally Expansions contain only 1 or 2… we get 3, once again HoT exceeds what other Expansions generally have.

New builds for existing professions do not equate to entirely new professions any more than adding new skills for existing professions in Eye of the North.

Galen Grey.4709:

Guild Halls. Do I really need to go through this? Most expansions that brought guild halls to MMOs provided castle size guild halls, HoT provides an entire MAP that can be changed at will with no penalty once unlocked. Again exceeds what most other Expansions did.

We have limited knowledge of what the expansions introduced in HOT will include. Not sure that we can say that it will exceed (or not exceed for that matter) what others have added without knowing the full scope of what it will actually add.

Galen Grey.4709:

PvP what we get in sPvP and WvW isnt really bigger then what other expansions do but it isnt smaller either. Well at least compared with those expansions that actually release new PvP content, plenty of examples of expansions that didnt contain any PvP content. That being said I wouldnt say this exceeds expectation but that it rather meets them.

If it is accessible without buying the expansion it is not a feature of the expansion.

Galen Grey.4709:

Quality of life.
HoT will also redesign Guild chat, Guild Currencies, Guild missions, guild claiming in WvW, the trait system and PvP Queuing system (already happened but was dont for HoT), introduce PvP Leagues, Map reward bonuses, Fractal redesign, fractal leader boards, revised WvW Scoring. Certainly not the first Expansion to include a quality of life update to an existent system but personally I’ve never see one that includes so many updates to so many systems all at once. Once again as expansion go this is bigger then what you generally get with an expansion.

If it is accessible without buying the expansion it is not a feature of the expansion.

Galen Grey.4709:

That all that was revealed so far and none of it is really underwhelming like people seem to claim..

Or it is all underwhelming. Or some of it is underwhelming. So far nothing that has been revealed has been worth the price of the expansion to me.. This of course may change based on future revelations. We shall see. The thing is that worth or value is completely subjective. To some everything revealed so far may be worth $100 while to others (such as myself) even as little kitten would be too much.

Galen Grey.4709:

That being said there of course is a concern that it will be lacking in terms of new maps.. thats possible especially since Colin more then once said that they’re not focusing on making a huge number of maps but rather making quality maps. So yeah its possible it may lack in that respect however we dont know anything in that regard so we cant really judge. Besides the number of maps on its own is meaningless. It needs to be taken in context with content. I mean having a ton of empty maps is not better then having a few content rich maps. We have to wait and see when they get around to unveiling what content HoT will have in that regard.

Odd, you describe the size of GW2 Guild Halls as making them more worthy relative to other expansion halls and yet here you say that size is meaningless.

Personally I have never seen a game release empty maps. Every one that I have seen has had mobs to fight, places to explore, etc. As someone for whom exploration is a major draw to this genre small maps are just plain less interesting than large ones.

Galen Grey.4709:

Lets stop claiming that what we know so far isnt worth the price because its far from true. What we know so far exceeds in scope of what other expansion of similar or slightly less price offer.

You do not get to decide what something is worth to other people. If someone does not find what we know so far to be worth the price then it is true for them. I for example, as stated above, do not consider what has been revealed so far to be worth the price. It is not worth a fraction of the price to me. That may change. It would take only a couple of things for me to be willing to spend hundreds of dollars on the expansion + gems.

And to clarify: I think that Anet’s business model for expansions is great. This is another example of their business model/sense being among the best in the industry in my opinion.

You can buy the expansion and get five character slots too. Youll just be starting over. Then you can keep your old account to get daily log in rewards. See how easy it is. You’re not actually getting anything different.

What you’re probably not taking into account, OP, is the difficulty in starting an MMO years after it launched. It may mean nothing to you, but every player who starts now is behind in one way or another.

Those who have been here since launch not only have items you can’t get anymore, but they’ve experienced content you can’t see anymore. They’ve also had time to build up loot and achievement points, where new players have to start from scratch.

Here’s another way to look at it that’s probably more reasonable. Virtually all games after 3 years drop in price. The game was selling, brand new, for $10 on three seperate occasions. The new people are getting something worth $10 and you’re getting a character slot worth the same thing.

What you get for paying early and more is the years of playing. If it’s not worth it to you, I’m not even sure why you’re interested in the expansion.

phys.7689:

seems like you are suggesting, as consumers, you should pay anet more money because they take longer to do something, and give you less content.

ill be honest, based on the way things are handled, it feels like anet has problems with content development in terms of timelines, vision, and amounts. (since after release, maybe before too, but we didnt have too much info) Until they solve those issues, many will be disatisfied.

you really think they’re slacking? how about Anets content is a ton more complex then what people are comparing it too? compare your generic quest with your generic dynamic event. your generic quest generally involves putting down an NPC who at best has a single idle animation, the quest text, quest script/conditions and perhaps a mob spawn marker somewhere and setting its parameters if even (chances are this would have already been done or shared between quests)

With a dynamic event? drop the npc, set a number of animations, idle, walking, combat etc.. set trigger scripts, set waypoints for were the npc will walk to and what s/he will do once event starts. Set skills NPC can use when he will inevitably end up in combat. text npc says while not involved in the a dynamic event, text npc says while event is running. Set a second npc that will go around looking for players and direct them to the event. This again involves animations, skills etc.. Script the mobs, where will they come from, where will they spawn and were will they move to. Script what happens when the event ends. NPCs go back to their original spaces no matter where they are in the world at the time. remaining Mobs go back to their original spaces too or at least walk “off camera” and dispawn etc.. Some events also include support characters like doliaks, pets, golems etc.. that also need to be setup and scripted. then you have the little acted scenes between npcs in between event chains. Those too need to be scripted, animated, with their own specific dialog. Lets also not forget Voice overs.

Now obviously I am not suggesting all this will have to be created from scratch. Naturally most animations will be reused and such but they still need to be assigned and scripted when to trigger etc.. I say most cause some events actually have custom animation too, others use support characters too like a pigeon flying in so an npc can pretend that their attaching a message to its feet etc.. Testing naturally is also more intensive. there is not much that can go wrong with a static npc giving you a quest but there is a lot that can go wrong with so many characters moving around.

so no its not about paying more for waiting longer or getting less. Its simply about understanding that what we get in Gw2 is more complex, more polished and overall better experience than your traditional MMO and as such it naturally takes longer to develop. If this means I have to pay $3 extra year on average I am more then happy to do that. Dynamic events over quests alone are more then worth that much.

Ashen.2907:

Galen Grey.4709:

Many of those other MMOs release an expansion every 1-2 years. Anet is releasing theirs after 3 years. This is critical for everyone but people seem to ignore it. Think about it. 1 year extra means the Expansion has cost Anet more (wages mainly) It means its cheaper for us. a $40 expansion every 2 years equals 20$ a year. a 50 dollar expansion every 3 years means $16 per year.

You might want to hold off on using this argument beause it can put other companies in a better light than Anet.

$40 every 2 years means 5 expansions for $200, coming over a period of 10 years.

$50 every 3 years means 4 expansions for $200, coming over a period of 12 years.

The GW2 model means fewer expansions for the same cost and having to wait longer for the expansions o be delivered.

Of course we cannot, yet, fully comparethe contents of a GW2 expanssion to that of another company, but you were comparing numbers/cost of expansions which does not necessarily favor the $50 every 3 years plan. Who knows, perhaps GW2 expansions will be larger than other games’ expansions and may even come more frequently than every three years in the future.

What we’re discussing primarily here is cost however and in terms of cost $200 every 10 years is more expensive than $200 every 12 years.

Not saying your argument doesnt have merit, obviously 5 expansions in 10 years can very much be better then 4 expansions every 12 years. That depends on many factors such as amount of content and quality of that content as well as how we’re kept busy in between expansions. There are many variables to consider and all i am saying it is the same thing when considering the price, something thats cheaper but more frequent can be more expensive in the long run than something thats more expensive but takes longer to occur.

Skye.9637:

Galen Grey.4709:

not just this but also people are really focusing on themselves and not really look at this from Anet point of view.

Anet has one of the biggest if not the biggest MMO team.

At the core of its rewrite, thats when essentially square enix created an MMO in just 2 years, FFXIV had 300 people working on it.

The next in line is ESO and they have less then 250 people working on the game.

Anet have 350.

Many of those other MMOs release an expansion every 1-2 years. Anet is releasing theirs after 3 years. This is critical for everyone but people seem to ignore it. Think about it. 1 year extra means the Expansion has cost Anet more (wages mainly) It means its cheaper for us. a $40 expansion every 2 years equals 20$ a year. a 50 dollar expansion every 3 years means $16 per year. These things matter, its not just about the full price and thats it, you need to see that in context.

Like some MMOs release DLCs that cost a mere $10 a pop. Is that cheaper? if you just look at the price sure, its 5 times less. But in the grand scheme of things those DLCs release approximately every 3 months. All in all in a 3 year period you have to pay 2.5 times more then what you pay for HoT to play all the content released. not really cheaper at all!

There’s a flaw here, you’re assuming they’ve been working on it since the game’s release. Who knows when they started? It was announced officially this year.

doesnt really matter when they started, if they were not working on content specifically for HoT they were still creating content for the game.

I would have bought HoT anyway because I like the base game and would have given them the “innocent until proven guilty” doubt. On the other hand, I am pretty sure that the development team of Anet stood there with their trousers around the ankles when management told them they have to work on a traditional expansion instead of dribbling out mostly rushed, grindy, unimaginative and horrible content like in LS2. Either that or their marketing and PR division is a complete joke that banks on the antique and completely failing “we don´t say what we have because it is awesome and we want for you to excitedly wait” tactic as you are dealing with gamers, a group of the most jaded and salty online warriors, especially in the PvP division.

Until the release that Fractals would get a boost too, I could not have cared less for HoT, everything I heard about I was either indifferent to(Legendary Items, Guild Halls, Revenant, Elite skills) or I would have even passed upon(new PvE map disguised as WVW map, horrible glide jump feature on a maze like new map) and never bought it if it were DLC contents.

Ashen.2907:

Every game that I have ever seen that has had an expansion including progression has allowed that progression to interact with/impact old content as well as new. This is nothing new in GW2.

You have any examples? cause thats not my experiance at all. For starters generally when an expansion releases all previous content is essentially invalided. So why would a game create a progression that enhances content thats no longer relevant? Thats true for games where such progression is vertical which is essentially every MMO apart from Gw1, Gw2 and Eve Online as far as I know.

Ashen.2907:

New builds for existing professions do not equate to entirely new professions any more than adding new skills for existing professions in Eye of the North.

Only we’re not simply talking about new builds, its not even simply creating new skills either. Its a new trait line, new skills, new elite skill, new mechanic etc per profession which is exactly all the work that would go to in creating another profession. Once again Gw2 is unique in that its a horizontal progression game rather then vertical. In all other Vertical progression MMOs it wouldnt make sense to expand an existent profession as a matter of fact I dont think it ever happened in an expansion. just cause others never did such a thing it doesnt mean this content provided in HoT doesnt exist so considering the work involved in a single specialization is 1/5 of the work that would go into a profession rather then simply stating here is somethign we get that no other expansion did ever we’re converting it in a quatifiable amount (2 professions) for the purpose of comparison. Now its up to you how you look at it. Its either HoT released a number of professions on par with other Expansion but included stuff that other expansions never had or you look at it holistically. either way it would still be more stuff then is generally offered in an expansion.

Ashen.2907:

We have limited knowledge of what the expansions (in terms of guildhalls) introduced in HOT will include. Not sure that we can say that it will exceed (or not exceed for that matter) what others have added without knowing the full scope of what it will actually add.

you’re right we still dont know all that guild halls will include but from what we know it includes the functionality you generally get with guild halls (a place to meet, craft, decorate and expand) and even exceed that (map rather then simple building, additional functionality you generally dont see like pvp arena) I am sure the stuff they didnt announce yet will not detract from guildhalls so its safe to say it will exceed what you generally find in other expansions.

Ashen.2907:

If it is accessible without buying the expansion it is not a feature of the expansion.

Why? if they developed it for heart of thorns it is a heart of thorns feature its a simple as that. Naturally its difficult for them to lock some stuff up. They could do it but it would fracture the player base resulting in sub optimal experience to all players involved which is something they always wanted to avoid. In any case you dont get the full experience if you dont buy HoT like say Stronghold, however for sure you will need HoT to unlock all the champions. Without HoT you only be able to summon ossa which provides a sub par experience.

Ashen.2907:

If it is accessible without buying the expansion it is not a feature of the expansion.

see above.

Or it is all underwhelming. Or some of it is underwhelming. So far nothing that has been revealed has been worth the price of the expansion to me.. This of course may change based on future revelations. We shall see. The thing is that worth or value is completely subjective. To some everything revealed so far may be worth $100 while to others (such as myself) even as little kitten would be too much.

please be specific, of whats been revealed so far, what exactly has been underwhelming?

sure but there is a difference between what we saw so far is underwhelming and I need to see what hasnt been revealed yet to be able to decide if the content is worth $50 to me. I have no problem with the later, its the former that I have issue with.

Ashen.2907:

Odd, you describe the size of GW2 Guild Halls as making them more worthy relative to other expansion halls and yet here you say that size is meaningless.

No I dont, I said number of maps need to be seen together with content thats offered and replayable value. Example if HoT maps are the same as current maps, 50-80 dynamic events in each etc.. its one thing, if each map has 100-160 events for day and 100-160 events for night its another thing. Simply speaking size of content isnt directly proportional to number of maps and is more important in my opinion.

Ashen.2907:

Personally I have never seen a game release empty maps. Every one that I have seen has had mobs to fight, places to explore, etc. As someone for whom exploration is a major draw to this genre small maps are just plain less interesting than large ones.

Ohh there are plenty of examples. MMOs with big maps but only a handful of quests in each and just a few cluster of mobs here and there.

Ashen.2907:

You do not get to decide what something is worth to other people. If someone does not find what we know so far to be worth the price then it is true for them. I for example, as stated above, do not consider what has been revealed so far to be worth the price. It is not worth a fraction of the price to me. That may change. It would take only a couple of things for me to be willing to spend hundreds of dollars on the expansion + gems.

Thats not what you’re saying though is it, what you’re saying is things like “Right now, based on what we have seen so far, I would say that $5 is too much.” What that means is assuming other expansion go for an average of $5, what we have seen so far is 8 times smaller than what other expansion do which isnt true, not even remotely. Now you can say that you’re not personally interested in what was shown so far, you could say that any purchase decision you will make is based on pve content which is what you’re interested in and thats perfectly fine. but that what we have seen isnt worth $5 is not.

Galen Grey.4709:

Ashen.2907:

New builds for existing professions do not equate to entirely new professions any more than adding new skills for existing professions in Eye of the North.

Only we’re not simply talking about new builds, its not even simply creating new skills either. Its a new trait line, new skills, new elite skill, new mechanic etc per profession which is exactly all the work that would go to in creating another profession.

New skills, new elite skills, and new profession mechanic are all simply just “new skills”. Not three separate things. An elite skill is just a more powerfull skill, and most of the profession mechanics changes we’ve seen so far are just new skills or altered versions of existing F-key skills. I think chronomancer’s Continuum Shift is the only one (so far) that’s actually added a new mechanic to the game, and that’s still just within a single skill.

The elite specializations are a rather big change, but they’re not comparable to adding an entirely new profession. I think it is more of a change than the dozen or so skills EotN added to GW1’s classes, but it’s maybe equal to the 30-ish the campaigns added. A new class adds a new, unique profession mechanic, 6 new specs, a full set of heal/utility/elite skills, and a full set of weapons/weapon skills.

And it’s worth noting that GW1’s campaigns added that much to each existing profession, while also including 2 new ones. For the same price as HoT.

why the hell is this topic still a thing? if you don’t want to pay the price don’t buy the Xpac and/or wait for a sale.

Anet got a huge kittenstorm for not valuing veteran players + they listened and gave us a goodie – we just can hope that they’ve learned something.

mrstealth.6701:

Galen Grey.4709:

Ashen.2907:

New builds for existing professions do not equate to entirely new professions any more than adding new skills for existing professions in Eye of the North.

Only we’re not simply talking about new builds, its not even simply creating new skills either. Its a new trait line, new skills, new elite skill, new mechanic etc per profession which is exactly all the work that would go to in creating another profession.

New skills, new elite skills, and new profession mechanic are all simply just “new skills”. Not three separate things. An elite skill is just a more powerfull skill, and most of the profession mechanics changes we’ve seen so far are just new skills or altered versions of existing F-key skills. I think chronomancer’s Continuum Shift is the only one (so far) that’s actually added a new mechanic to the game, and that’s still just within a single skill.

The elite specializations are a rather big change, but they’re not comparable to adding an entirely new profession. I think it is more of a change than the dozen or so skills EotN added to GW1’s classes, but it’s maybe equal to the 30-ish the campaigns added. A new class adds a new, unique profession mechanic, 6 new specs, a full set of heal/utility/elite skills, and a full set of weapons/weapon skills.

wait a second I never said an elite specialization is the same thing like a whole new profession, If I had claimed that I would have stated HoT has the equivalent of 10 new professions which I didnt. I said 5 specializations are like a new profession. Why do I say that?

What is a profession in technical terms in the core game?

its 3 – 9 weapons depending on profession.
4 healing skills
20 utility skills
3 elite skills
5 trait lines

What does an elite specialization give us?

1 new weapon
1 new heal skill
4 new utility skills
1 new elite
1 new trait line

if we multiply that by 5 we get the equivalent of
5 weapons
5 healing skills
20 utility skills
5 elite skills
5 trait lines

isnt this like an entire new profession? infact its actually slightly bigger. 5 heal skills not 4, 5 elite skills not 3

so why is it wrong to say 9 elite specializations are the equivalent of 2 professions exactly? whats missing in your opinion?

Loex.5104:

why the hell is this topic still a thing? if you don’t want to pay the price don’t buy the Xpac and/or wait for a sale.

Anet got a huge kittenstorm for not valuing veteran players + they listened and gave us a goodie – we just can hope that they’ve learned something.

And thats not considering they actually wanted to give us all of this for free through the living story but no people insisted it had to be an expansion. They obliged and now its a whole story cause its $10 more expensive then the average.

Loex.5104:

why the hell is this topic still a thing? if you don’t want to pay the price don’t buy the Xpac and/or wait for a sale.

Anet got a huge kittenstorm for not valuing veteran players + they listened and gave us a goodie – we just can hope that they’ve learned something.

Anet did the minimum they could to put out the raging forum fire. But that still leaves HoT being worth its cost up for discussion, which often results in those topics merged into this one.

This type of discussion should exist for every game pre-order, until all details of content are fully known. Every consumer should question the value of the products they buy, or consider buying.

Galen Grey.4709:

And thats not considering they actually wanted to give us all of this for free through the living story but no people insisted it had to be an expansion. They obliged and now its a whole story cause its $10 more expensive then the average.

QFT, even when I think the expansion doesn´t really look too exciting at the moment.

Torolan.5816:

Galen Grey.4709:

And thats not considering they actually wanted to give us all of this for free through the living story but no people insisted it had to be an expansion. They obliged and now its a whole story cause its $10 more expensive then the average.

QFT, even when I think the expansion doesn´t really look too exciting at the moment.

It wasn’t free, it was supported by the gemstore. It’s an optional fee, which most of us are probably paying, whether that’s directly with cash or indirectly through the exchange. And I think the idea most had was getting an expansion in addition to ongoing content updates. Maybe not a living story season, but something. Not having a year long content drought, while Anet kept on collecting gemstore profits as they held back that content to sell as its own product.

mrstealth.6701:

Torolan.5816:

Galen Grey.4709:

And thats not considering they actually wanted to give us all of this for free through the living story but no people insisted it had to be an expansion. They obliged and now its a whole story cause its $10 more expensive then the average.

QFT, even when I think the expansion doesn´t really look too exciting at the moment.

It wasn’t free, it was supported by the gemstore. It’s an optional fee, which most of us are probably paying, whether that’s directly with cash or indirectly through the exchange. And I think the idea most had was getting an expansion in addition to ongoing content updates. Maybe not a living story season, but something. Not having a year long content drought, while Anet kept on collecting gemstore profits as they held back that content to sell as its own product.

thats like arguing Youtube isnt free because you’re paying electricity, internet connection and potentially adverts you’re buying off google themselves. Thats wrong the content itself is 100% free. if you decide to donate / buy stuff you want off the gemshop its your choice and a good one at that but in no way shape or form would that be a fee you’re paying for the content.

What year long content drought are you talking about? this is the longest drought we had and if you exclude the trait changes its 8 months not a year. besides I hope you dont think the expansion has only been in development for the last 8 months cause i think thats pretty clearly not the case. Living story ended right when expansion beings that kinda tied them up. They can release a festival or SAB ofcourse but does it make sense to reallocate resources for that at this point?

Galen Grey.4709:

thats like arguing Youtube isnt free because you’re paying electricity, internet connection and potentially adverts you’re buying off google themselves. Thats wrong the content itself is 100% free. if you decide to donate / buy stuff you want off the gemshop its your choice and a good one at that but in no way shape or form would that be a fee you’re paying for the content.

What year long content drought are you talking about? this is the longest drought we had and if you exclude the trait changes its 8 months not a year. besides I hope you dont think the expansion has only been in development for the last 8 months cause i think thats pretty clearly not the case. Living story ended right when expansion beings that kinda tied them up. They can release a festival or SAB ofcourse but does it make sense to reallocate resources for that at this point?

Actually, I agree with you on the part of free content only, I was baffled to hear that players wanted to pay for content instead of getting it for free in the ls. If you want to see a game that allows you to play(not to win!) when you buy something, look at eve online. If you don´t buy, steal or work for a plex, you can´t play and have to pay with real money.

On the second part, I really think that Anet was like a sitting duck when they changed business models reluctantly, and being forced to rush out content they wanted to present in the course of a year.
Why do I believe this?
“Soon.”
That is not a marketing term, that is the message of a naked man that has no pockets to hide something.
“When it is ready.”
The message of a man who has something, but knows he would be lynched for it if he already showed it because it is in such an early state that people would grab their pitchforks if they knew.
“The core game is included and does not raise the price of the expansion.”
Although surely true, the shenaningans around this message proved me that the marketing and accounting departments either don´t know what they have, or they don´t care what the customers want and would want to pay, but still don´t want to go off their idea even after it has kicked them hard in the balls. That is no new trend in town, sad enough. There are countless companies, even giant ones, that are successful despite being themselves.

Galen Grey.4709:

Only we’re not simply talking about new builds, its not even simply creating new skills either. Its a new trait line, new skills, new elite skill, new mechanic etc per profession which is exactly all the work that would go to in creating another profession.

Sorry, no. One new skill line, versus ~5 for a new profession. One Elite skill, versus 3. One land weapon, offering as many as 8 (Tempest WH) or as few as 2 skills, versus however many weapon combinations (Engi, with the least weapons, starts with 12). One new trait line versus five. Elite Specs are a relatively small expansion to the existing professions, not a secondary profession. The only things that make them seem more than that are that there has been relatively little added to professions since launch and hype excitability.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Galen Grey.4709:

Only we’re not simply talking about new builds, its not even simply creating new skills either. Its a new trait line, new skills, new elite skill, new mechanic etc per profession which is exactly all the work that would go to in creating another profession.

Sorry, no. One new skill line, versus ~5 for a new profession. One Elite skill, versus 3. One land weapon, offering as many as 8 (Tempest WH) or as few as 2 skills, versus however many weapon combinations (Engi, with the least weapons, starts with 12). One new trait line versus five. Elite Specs are a relatively small expansion to the existing professions, not a secondary profession. The only things that make them seem more than that are that there has been relatively little added to professions since launch and hype excitability.

can we stop talking what I say out of context please. You forgot / disregarded what I said in numerous other replies as well as at the end of that same paragraph you quote "a single specialization is 1/5 of the work that would go into a profession rather then simply stating here is somethign we get that no other expansion did ever we’re converting it in a quatifiable amount (2 professions) for the purpose of comparison. "

for the 3rd time now in this thread I Never said 1 specialization = 1 profession, I said 5 specializations = 1 profession and that satisfies your own criteria

IndigoSundown.5419:

One Elite skill, versus 3.

5 specializations have 5 Elite skills

IndigoSundown.5419:

One land weapon, offering as many as 8 (Tempest WH) or as few as 2 skills, versus however many weapon combinations

5 specializations have 5 weapons and if they were all applied to the same professions they’d have multiple combinations as well.

IndigoSundown.5419:

One new trait line versus five.

5 specializations have 5 trait lines too.

Just in case some one else misses it and to be sure I am crystal clear. I never claimed 1 specialization is like a new profession. I said if you add up all the stuff that makes up 5x Specializations you’d get the equivalent amount of stuff you’d get with a new profession.

Or if you prefer to look at it a different way once Arenanet finished creating the 9 specializations they can decided to forget about specializations and instead create 2 new weird professions.

Lets call it Dragon Berserker of a Tempest Reaper Mancer
This awesome new profession can use
Longbow, torches, Warhorns, Greatsword, Shields
They have 5 trait lines
Dragon Hunter, Beserker, Tempest, Reaper, Chronomancer
they have 5 healing skills
20 Utilities
5 Elite skills

This profession also have 5 different mechanics (Overloads, reaper shroud, traps, prime adrenaline skills,time manipulation stuff ) making it super complicated and ackward to play)

It would be super wierd and there would be tons of posts about what anet were thinking if they did that but who would look at that and say hey thats not a real profession because its just a small fraction of an existing profession. No one cause it has actually more then one would normally find in a profession definitely not less.

Ergo I repeat 5 specializations is more or less 1 profession.

Galen Grey.4709:

mrstealth.6701:

Torolan.5816:

Galen Grey.4709:

And thats not considering they actually wanted to give us all of this for free through the living story but no people insisted it had to be an expansion. They obliged and now its a whole story cause its $10 more expensive then the average.

QFT, even when I think the expansion doesn´t really look too exciting at the moment.

It wasn’t free, it was supported by the gemstore. It’s an optional fee, which most of us are probably paying, whether that’s directly with cash or indirectly through the exchange. And I think the idea most had was getting an expansion in addition to ongoing content updates. Maybe not a living story season, but something. Not having a year long content drought, while Anet kept on collecting gemstore profits as they held back that content to sell as its own product.

thats like arguing Youtube isnt free because you’re paying electricity, internet connection and potentially adverts you’re buying off google themselves. Thats wrong the content itself is 100% free. if you decide to donate / buy stuff you want off the gemshop its your choice and a good one at that but in no way shape or form would that be a fee you’re paying for the content.

What year long content drought are you talking about? this is the longest drought we had and if you exclude the trait changes its 8 months not a year. besides I hope you dont think the expansion has only been in development for the last 8 months cause i think thats pretty clearly not the case. Living story ended right when expansion beings that kinda tied them up. They can release a festival or SAB ofcourse but does it make sense to reallocate resources for that at this point?

That is nothing like Youtube’s business model, which is based on advertisers paying them to put ads in our faces. It has nothing to do with the money you pay for utilities. Anet is either selling gems directly to us, or selling them to another player that we buy them from. It’s more akin to a wholesaler-retailer relationship, than a media platform-advertiser one. It’s the direct replacement/alternate to having a monthly fee. If there was no gemstore, we’d all be paying $10-15/mo to play or getting almost zero content outside of expansions.

As for the content drought, it’s going to be 10 months to a year long by the time HoT is actually out. How long HoT has been in development doesn’t really matter. It’s a fact that they ceased development on new playable content to get an expansion out sooner, and LS3 was pushed into HoT’s release because of it. The point is that LS3 is what these months of gemstore sales were supposed to be supporting, yet they are putting it with an expansion as if it adds value to the $50 pricetag.

Galen Grey.4709

Or if you prefer to look at it a different way once Arenanet finished creating the 9 specializations they can decided to forget about specializations and instead create 2 new weird professions.

You’re basically saying that 1 elite spec is about equal to 20% of a profession. Which means that HoT is giving us 2.8 “professions” (120% for rev, then 20% for each of 8 specs) .

Both of GW1’s added $50 campaigns included two entirely new professions, on top of adding 20-30% more skills to all existing professions. That’s equal to at least 4 new professions.

A single new profession and a set of elite specs is a bit light in comparison. It’s not awful, it’s not even unacceptable. But it is a lot less.

mrstealth.6701:

That is nothing like Youtube’s business model, which is based on advertisers paying them to put ads in our faces. It has nothing to do with the money you pay for utilities. Anet is either selling gems directly to us, or selling them to another player that we buy them from. It’s more akin to a wholesaler-retailer relationship, than a media platform-advertiser one. It’s the direct replacement/alternate to having a monthly fee. If there was no gemstore, we’d all be paying $10-15/mo to play or getting almost zero content outside of expansions.

As for the content drought, it’s going to be 10 months to a year long by the time HoT is actually out. How long HoT has been in development doesn’t really matter. It’s a fact that they ceased development on new playable content to get an expansion out sooner, and LS3 was pushed into HoT’s release because of it. The point is that LS3 is what these months of gemstore sales were supposed to be supporting, yet they are putting it with an expansion as if it adds value to the $50 pricetag.

They’re similar in that they’re both monetizing things other then their content.

Sure arenanet sell gems directly to us or through another player but for the 2nd time no piece of content requires you to ever own a single gem which is what makes said content free.

First of all how was Season 3 pushed into HoT release when Season 2 puts us right at the start of HoT? Secondly you’re assuming there will be no content release before HoT comes out. You could be right but there is equal chance you could be wrong. Halloween would hit before then most likely. We dont know for sure they’re going to skip it anyway. We dont even know when HoT will hit.

Not its not a fact all, its an assumption. Sure its possible they stopped contend development for HoT but its equally possible they stopped simply because they had originally planned for HoT to come out right after Season 2 ended but didnt manage to meet the deadline. Its not like they have a lot of options really if you think about it. They cant start Season 3 because naturally season 3 will happen after the events of HoT and it would be crazy to start something new completely for filler. One it will feel out of place ( a totally different story) and Two it would still take around 4 months to get it in place (thats how long Living story episodes took to develop) and you’d need to take resources out of HoT potentially pushing it even further back which really no one wants.

Also that Gemshop sales are supposed to finance Living story is also an assumption. they never said LS would exclusively be financed through gemshop sales so much so they’re actually selling it directly.

Galen Grey.4709:

First of all how was Season 3 pushed into HoT release when Season 2 puts us right at the start of HoT? Secondly you’re assuming there will be no content release before HoT comes out. You could be right but there is equal chance you could be wrong. Halloween would hit before then most likely. We dont know for sure they’re going to skip it anyway. We dont even know when HoT will hit.

Not its not a fact all, its an assumption. Sure its possible they stopped contend development for HoT but its equally possible they stopped simply because they had originally planned for HoT to come out right after Season 2 ended but didnt manage to meet the deadline.

I’m fairly certain Anet straight up said they had put other content on hold so the entire company could focus on HoT. It’s not an assumption, it’s what they told us themselves.

Also that Gemshop sales are supposed to finance Living story is also an assumption. they never said LS would exclusively be financed through gemshop sales so much so they’re actually selling it directly.

Their statements in 2013 made it very clear that the gemstore was sustaining content production.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-07-03-its-unlikely-guild-wars-2-will-ever-get-an-expansion-pack

That is the same song they were singing last year, as well.

If there have been major changes to what the gemstore is supporting, then it is their responsibility to inform their customers. We have a right to know what our gem purchases are funding, versus what HoT’s price is funding. It’s certainly a blurry line at the moment, since it’s already clear that some expansion features aren’t going to be included in-full at release. Other features, like whether or not HoT has story content other than LS3 and how much story will be available at launch, are still unkowns.

mrstealth.6701:

Galen Grey.4709:

First of all how was Season 3 pushed into HoT release when Season 2 puts us right at the start of HoT? Secondly you’re assuming there will be no content release before HoT comes out. You could be right but there is equal chance you could be wrong. Halloween would hit before then most likely. We dont know for sure they’re going to skip it anyway. We dont even know when HoT will hit.

Not its not a fact all, its an assumption. Sure its possible they stopped contend development for HoT but its equally possible they stopped simply because they had originally planned for HoT to come out right after Season 2 ended but didnt manage to meet the deadline.

I’m fairly certain Anet straight up said they had put other content on hold so the entire company could focus on HoT. It’s not an assumption, it’s what they told us themselves.

Also that Gemshop sales are supposed to finance Living story is also an assumption. they never said LS would exclusively be financed through gemshop sales so much so they’re actually selling it directly.

Their statements in 2013 made it very clear that the gemstore was sustaining content production.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-07-03-its-unlikely-guild-wars-2-will-ever-get-an-expansion-pack

That is the same song they were singing last year, as well.

If there have been major changes to what the gemstore is supporting, then it is their responsibility to inform their customers. We have a right to know what our gem purchases are funding, versus what HoT’s price is funding. It’s certainly a blurry line at the moment, since it’s already clear that some expansion features aren’t going to be included in-full at release. Other features, like whether or not HoT has story content other than LS3 and how much story will be available at launch, are still unkowns.

You have no right whatsoever to “know” how the money you’re spending on gems is being used. If anyone would have such a right, it would be owners of NCSoft stock, however, while NCSoft reports revenue by game, they do not report expenses by game.

IndigoSundown.5419:

You have no right whatsoever to “know” how the money you’re spending on gems is being used. If anyone would have such a right, it would be owners of NCSoft stock, however, while NCSoft reports revenue by game, they do not report expenses by game.

You’re correct that we don’t have the right to detailed expense reports on where that gemstore money goes, but we do have the right to know what precisely the $50 being asked for HoT is paying for (in terms of what we receive, not their expenses) in relation to that. They’re trying to sell us a retail/digital product (HoT) that’s feature list seems likely blurred into features that were previously stated to be supported via gemstore earnings. We have the right to know where the line between HoT’s value/content and our further supporting of the game/company via the gemstore is.

mrstealth.6701:

IndigoSundown.5419:

You have no right whatsoever to “know” how the money you’re spending on gems is being used. If anyone would have such a right, it would be owners of NCSoft stock, however, while NCSoft reports revenue by game, they do not report expenses by game.

You’re correct that we don’t have the right to detailed expense reports on where that gemstore money goes, but we do have the right to know what precisely the $50 being asked for HoT is paying for (in terms of what we receive, not their expenses) in relation to that. They’re trying to sell us a retail/digital product (HoT) that’s feature list seems likely blurred into features that were previously stated to be supported via gemstore earnings. We have the right to know where the line between HoT’s value/content and our further supporting of the game/company via the gemstore is.

Sure, at one point Anet was considering not offering an expansion. That changed, at least in part due to player demand. Now they are, and we don’t know what they will do between expansions. While I understand your wanting that information, you still don’t have a right to it. Your consumer rights begin and end with your freedom to ask for info, your freedom to buy or not buy based on the info given and your freedom to tell Anet why you are or aren’t buying.

Consumers have a bit more rights than that. Any company has legal obligations to be honest and forthcoming about what is/isn’t included with a product. About just what it is that you’re paying for. With virtual currency purchases like gems, that probably does end with the fact that it’s a currency to spend in their store or exchange for gold. For an actual product/service like a game or expansion, there are legal protections for consumers regarding the contents of the purchase and the information given to consumers about it before buying. We have the right to accurate and honest information about the products being sold to us.

That includes making their marketing clear about what HoT includes, about what the purchase is required to access, and what is given whether you buy or not (the stuff the gemstore funds). They just don’t have to outright state that what is funding that non-HoT content, but that is already known anyway due to their previous statements.

It’s an area where Anet is already treading into grey territory. Their marketing for HoT so far implies that some features require buying it, while they are available to any player. There is also the (now resolved) matter of their own HoT FAQ claiming that an existing GW2 account was required while marketing the core game with discounts. That wasn’t resolved until after a week-long PR nightmare across their forums and various gaming news sites. They attempted to get away with it by quietly editing that FAQ shortly after pre-orders were available.

Consumer protection laws are designed to protect against business practices which prey on consumers in vulnerable positions, or misleading/false advertising. You’d have a hard time making a case for false advertising — at least so far. ANet hasn’t really said all that much, after all. You’re certainly not in a vulnerable position as there are no extraneous factors forcing you to buy. If you believe that you might be disadvantaged by buying HoT without more info, then don’t buy it. It isn’t like you can play it now anyway.

ANet has been very clear about their business model. GW2 is buy-to-play. This means buy the box, get what’s in the box and any updates that apply to what’s in the box. Play what’s in the box as long as the servers are up. Their plan going forward is that they will sell new boxes, also buy-to-play. I see no reason to assume that the HoT box will be any different. Buy the box, play what’s in the HoT box as long as the servers are up. Get access to any updates that pertain to the HoT box. I see no reason to believe they will depart from this by making any possible Heart of Meguma story updates post HoT launch available to non-HoT owners. What’s not know as far as I’m concerned is whether there will be story/content updates with any frequency after HoT launch, or whether there will be a content drought until the next box.

Galen Grey.4709:

What we’re discussing primarily here is cost however and in terms of cost $200 every 10 years is more expensive than $200 every 12 years.

Whether or not a given price for something is expensive is a matter of what (or how large) that something is.

Try this at home. Ask someone if $200 is expensive. The response is likely to be something along the lines of, “for what ?” $200 for a house is not expensive. $200 for a candy bar is. $200 in and of itself is neither expensive nor inexpensive until you define what is being purchased for that amount of money.

If the expansions are of equal merit $200 for five of them is less expensive than $200 for four of them. Ask yourself which would be a better deal (AKA less expensive):

Apples 5 for $2.00 or Apples 4 for $2.00 ?

Now if it turns out Anet’s expansions are larger than other companies’ expansions then the difference might be entirely negated. We will see.

Galen Grey.4709:

You have any examples? cause thats not my experiance at all. For starters generally when an expansion releases all previous content is essentially invalided. So why would a game create a progression that enhances content thats no longer relevant? Thats true for games where such progression is vertical which is essentially every MMO apart from Gw1, Gw2 and Eve Online as far as I know.

GW1 was one of my examples actually. But really every game. I know people who specifically wait to do group content in games until after an expansion so that they can solo them.

Galen Grey.4709:

Only we’re not simply talking about new builds, its not even simply creating new skills either. Its a new trait line, new skills, new elite skill, new mechanic etc per profession which is exactly all the work that would go to in creating another profession.

You just described new builds, not new professions.

Galen Grey.4709:

you’re right we still dont know all that guild halls will include but from what we know it includes the functionality you generally get with guild halls (a place to meet, craft, decorate and expand) and even exceed that (map rather then simple building, additional functionality you generally dont see like pvp arena) I am sure the stuff they didnt announce yet will not detract from guildhalls so its safe to say it will exceed what you generally find in other expansions.

Its also safe to say that it will not exceed what you generally find in other expansions. That is the advantage of comparing an unknown quantity to a known.

Galen Grey.4709:

Why? if they developed it for heart of thorns it is a heart of thorns feature its a simple as that.

HOT is a product with a price tag. It is defined by its creators/owners as including certain elements (even if not all of them have been announced in detail as of yet). Game elements which do not require paying that price tag are not part of that product. The fact that those elements may very well have been developed at the same time has no bearing on whether or not they are included in the HOT purchase. If I can have it without purchasing HOT then it is not part of the HOT purchase.

Galen Grey.4709:

please be specific, of whats been revealed so far, what exactly has been underwhelming?

Everything listed as being included in the HOT purchase so far.

Galen Grey.4709:

sure but there is a difference between what we saw so far is underwhelming and I need to see what hasnt been revealed yet to be able to decide if the content is worth $50 to me. I have no problem with the later, its the former that I have issue with.

You having an issue with the fact that what we have seen so far is underwhelming to me is your problem, not mine. You do not get to decide what others like, dislike, find underwhelming, etc.

That said, it would only take one or two elements revealed in order for purchasing HOT to be a done deal for me. That is not because what has been revealed so far would be sufficient enticement, but because I am willing to buy an expansion that is otherwise completely underwhelming to me if it includes a couple of specific elements.

Galen Grey.4709:

Ohh there are plenty of examples. MMOs with big maps but only a handful of quests in each and just a few cluster of mobs here and there.

So not empty. Mobs to kill, quests to do, locations to explore. Gotcha.

Galen Grey.4709:

Thats not what you’re saying though is it

Yes it is. You can tell by the fact that it is what I typed.

Galen Grey.4709:

what you’re saying is things like “Right now, based on what we have seen so far, I would say that $5 is too much.”

Pretty much (with the inclusion of the words, “to me.”

Galen Grey.4709:

What that means is assuming other expansion go for an average of $5, what we have seen so far is 8 times smaller than what other expansion do

That is not what the previous statement means. I made no comment about other games’ expansions. Nothing detailed so far about HOT is of interest to me. I do not consider things that don’t interest me to be worth spending money on. I do not buy products for the heck of it when the product lacks any value to me. The time spent performing the purchase transaction would be too much even if HOT (as currently described) was priced at a nickle. There is simply nothing to it (as detailed so far) that interests me.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with what other expansions cost, provide, etc. HOT is being compared to itself and how it meets my interests, not to other games’ expansions (for me at least).

Galen Grey.4709:

but that what we have seen isnt worth $5 is not.

Yes it is true. Worth is subjective to each individual. To me HOT (as currently detailed) is not worth $5. Unless you can prove that you are a telepath who knows what I value better than I do you are mistaken in even expressing an opinion about what HOT is worth to me.

Disclaimer time:

There is the distinct possibility that upcoming reveals will change my opinion about HOT’s worth. I am willing to spend heavily for certain specific game elements. If those elements are included then my view of the expansion will change despite the fact that everything revealed as of right now is underwhelming and not worth paying for (to me).

mrstealth.6701:

but we do have the right to know what precisely the $50 being asked for HoT is paying for (in terms of what we receive, not their expenses) in relation to that.

No you do not.

It is a good idea for you to wait for that to be revealed before buying, but it is not a right. As long as the company doesn’t advertise their product as being something it is not, or containing something that it does not, they are allowed to be mysterious about it.

Ashen.2907:

mrstealth.6701:

but we do have the right to know what precisely the $50 being asked for HoT is paying for (in terms of what we receive, not their expenses) in relation to that.

No you do not.

It is a good idea for you to wait for that to be revealed before buying, but it is not a right. As long as the company doesn’t advertise their product as being something it is not, or containing something that it does not, they are allowed to be mysterious about it.

I was being a bit too broad in my statement (ironically, the same thing I think Anet is doing). While they don’t have to lay out details for every bit of content, they do need to inform customers of the lines between the marketed features that are part of HoT’s purchase, and the ones added for everyone.

They’re already treading into the grey area of being misleading. It’s a stretch to claim false advertisement, but their marketing has been far from clear. And some very simple questions about features have been totally avoided. Being mysterious and not announcing a feature/detail might be alright, but refusing to clarify which aspects of a feature being marketed as part of HoT actually require its purchase is not.

mrstealth.6701:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-07-03-its-unlikely-guild-wars-2-will-ever-get-an-expansion-pack

That is the same song they were singing last year, as well.

that article also says there will not be an expansion and dont you think that once they decided to change from no expansion to developing an expansion things changed drastically? you think this is something you do on a whim with no repercussions? The moment they decided to go for an expansion they had to hold off content releases from the living world (else what are they to release in the expansion right?) reducing the amount of content released in the living world also meant fewer people stuck around as well as those that stuck around were less happy with the amount of content released and thus less likely to buy off the cash shop. That in turn means the cash shop itself can support far less content.

mrstealth.6701:

If there have been major changes to what the gemstore is supporting, then it is their responsibility to inform their customers. We have a right to know what our gem purchases are funding, versus what HoT’s price is funding. It’s certainly a blurry line at the moment, since it’s already clear that some expansion features aren’t going to be included in-full at release. Other features, like whether or not HoT has story content other than LS3 and how much story will be available at launch, are still unkowns.

No we dont really. We’re customers not investors. Once we pay its their money and they can do whatever they want with it, we dont get a say and we dont need to know. Its no just a blurry line its a none existent line and thank god for that. Think about it this way, once the expansion releases it will likely people will refrain for buying gems for a while. They’d have just paid $50-$100 and thus they’d likely be low on gaming budget, I know thats true for me at least, I assume I am not the only one. That means for a quarter or two gem sales will be low. If that money is used to exclusively fund living story and live updates would it make sense their budget and potentially their team be cut down cause there isnt the money to sustain them while Gw2 would be probably at an all time high in terms of revenue just cause that revenue is coming from box sales rather then gem sales?

mrstealth.6701:

IndigoSundown.5419:

You have no right whatsoever to “know” how the money you’re spending on gems is being used. If anyone would have such a right, it would be owners of NCSoft stock, however, while NCSoft reports revenue by game, they do not report expenses by game.

You’re correct that we don’t have the right to detailed expense reports on where that gemstore money goes, but we do have the right to know what precisely the $50 being asked for HoT is paying for (in terms of what we receive, not their expenses) in relation to that. They’re trying to sell us a retail/digital product (HoT) that’s feature list seems likely blurred into features that were previously stated to be supported via gemstore earnings. We have the right to know where the line between HoT’s value/content and our further supporting of the game/company via the gemstore is.

Do you also expect a break down from a takeout place when you buy a pizza on how the money you pay is going to be spread? 10% pays for the flour, 5% for the stuff on the pizza, 1% goes to pay for the sauce. 20% goes to wages. 10% covers expense, the rest is pure profit. Come on its not realistic.

Galen Grey.4709:

The moment they decided to go for an expansion they had to hold off content releases from the living world (else what are they to release in the expansion right?)

An expansion certainly does not mean that all other content has to stop. That’s not even how Anet handled new content in GW1, which didn’t have any other sources of revenue till long after the final retail release. I think a change of pacing is expected, but to stop entirely for the majority of a year? No.

Do you also expect a break down from a takeout place when you buy a pizza on how the money you pay is going to be spread? 10% pays for the flour, 5% for the stuff on the pizza, 1% goes to pay for the sauce. 20% goes to wages. 10% covers expense, the rest is pure profit. Come on its not realistic.

That is exactly what I agreed to us not having the right to.

But when I order a pizza I do expect to informed (if requested, at least) of the base cost of the pizza, the cost of extra toppings, and how much the delivery fee is. We have a right to know what we’re being charged for and receiving…but not a detailed expenses report.