Guild Wars 2

Inverse.2967:

maddoctor.2738:

Inverse.2967:

By the way the data cited from MMO-Champ earlier is based off of only
“The data used today is a sample made up of 7.3 million characters from 2.3 million accounts, with at least one character active after March 15. The sample is slightly biased, as players who are not in a guild are much less likely to appear in our sample.
"
So this picture is only a subset, we have no idea how representative this subset is for the overall population at that time of the product, only Blizz knows.
The hard fact that was given by Blizz was after the original Vanilla Naxxramas, where they stated just a very very tiny fraction of customers had ever seen that stuff from the inside at that time and the investment was a waste from a budgetary point of view.
Which is pretty much the reason why it re-appeared in Wrath later on to make something of that dev time spent.

2.3 million accounts out of 10 million accounts is a very good sample slightly biased or not. I never said the data is completely accurate but it’s not the 5% that other players are saying. Maybe it’s not 70% but it is a very high and actually significant percentage of the population.

70% of the 2.3 mil sample is 1610000 accounts raiding. Even if those are the ONLY raiders (which is false) it’s still a 16.1% of the total population. Even that 16% is no insignificant number

Yes your point is totally legit content for at least 16% customers would be more than viable, if you spent about that amount of your budget on it.
Its not really a question of how elusive things added to the game might be, it is more a question of how well to allocate from the overall budget so all your customers will feel they got what they paid for and not feel like they paid mostly for sponsoring something they do not want or worse that will make others belittle them.

Also combining your citation and my point about the earlier Naxx statements just illustrates that making sure content accessiblity must always be in balance with dev resource spent on them to make sure your product can go on an generate the most future profit so you can spent even more resource on the next big thing.

Right now it seems ANet has presented Raids to be a really big thing that they put a substantial effort into, and Colin expressedly stated they want it to be hard but access to trying it not to be artificially hindered. At least is what I take from his “bring the class you want statement”.
So I’m pretty sure they will get their balance right without making that stuff a gogo quick skip skip dungeon run later down the line.

So you are saying one raid with 3 wings is more expensive to make than 4 full HoT maps, elite specs, one new profession, mastery system, new WvW borderland, new PvP leagues, Guild Halls and all they require? I think the content they are adding in HoT that is NOT raids is quite significant and nobody should feel their money aren’t well spent.

Zalavaaris.5329:

Yea unfortunately all of my wow raiding friends left wow when they more or less disolved 10 man heroic raiding guilds. I tried to recruit them over here as i’m an avid player of both games. Instead they went to ff14 and they said there’s so much to do that they refuse to even try the free version. The time spent away from ff14 when they could be raiding isn’t worth their hard drive space. It’s sooooo sad because raiding with gw2 combat is going to truly be a unique raiding experience. And collecting legendary precursor armor that leads to an epic journey to craft the ultimate godly looking gear is going to make it even better.

It MIGHT be a unique experience. It MIGHT also be Corner Wars 2: The ReReckoning. I’m coming back to try out the expansion but I haven’t played in a LONG time because I can’t stand this zerker meta or the idea that you can ignore all mechanics and stand in a corner to beat bosses. Why was this never fixed? Why should I believe that they can fix it now, with a single raid?

maddoctor.2738:

Inverse.2967:

maddoctor.2738:

Inverse.2967:

By the way the data cited from MMO-Champ earlier is based off of only
“The data used today is a sample made up of 7.3 million characters from 2.3 million accounts, with at least one character active after March 15. The sample is slightly biased, as players who are not in a guild are much less likely to appear in our sample.
"
So this picture is only a subset, we have no idea how representative this subset is for the overall population at that time of the product, only Blizz knows.
The hard fact that was given by Blizz was after the original Vanilla Naxxramas, where they stated just a very very tiny fraction of customers had ever seen that stuff from the inside at that time and the investment was a waste from a budgetary point of view.
Which is pretty much the reason why it re-appeared in Wrath later on to make something of that dev time spent.

2.3 million accounts out of 10 million accounts is a very good sample slightly biased or not. I never said the data is completely accurate but it’s not the 5% that other players are saying. Maybe it’s not 70% but it is a very high and actually significant percentage of the population.

70% of the 2.3 mil sample is 1610000 accounts raiding. Even if those are the ONLY raiders (which is false) it’s still a 16.1% of the total population. Even that 16% is no insignificant number

Yes your point is totally legit content for at least 16% customers would be more than viable, if you spent about that amount of your budget on it.
Its not really a question of how elusive things added to the game might be, it is more a question of how well to allocate from the overall budget so all your customers will feel they got what they paid for and not feel like they paid mostly for sponsoring something they do not want or worse that will make others belittle them.

Also combining your citation and my point about the earlier Naxx statements just illustrates that making sure content accessiblity must always be in balance with dev resource spent on them to make sure your product can go on an generate the most future profit so you can spent even more resource on the next big thing.

Right now it seems ANet has presented Raids to be a really big thing that they put a substantial effort into, and Colin expressedly stated they want it to be hard but access to trying it not to be artificially hindered. At least is what I take from his “bring the class you want statement”.
So I’m pretty sure they will get their balance right without making that stuff a gogo quick skip skip dungeon run later down the line.

So you are saying one raid with 3 wings is more expensive to make than 4 full HoT maps, elite specs, one new profession, mastery system, new WvW borderland, new PvP leagues, Guild Halls and all they require? I think the content they are adding in HoT that is NOT raids is quite significant and nobody should feel their money aren’t well spent.

Raids are totally irrelevant for the game, so its wasted money. And they boasted theyll do much more on regular basis. So theyll waste even more.

SkiTz.4590:

Those 2 are completely different game modes. You cannot compare that to pve…. its an entirely different animal.

Both PvP and WvW have REAL players controlling their characters, who are most likely, smarter than your average risen who LOVES to sit in your lava fonts/AOEs until they die.

Exactly, meaning it’s definitely not a combat engine flaw but rather content flaw.

MikaHR.1978:

maddoctor.2738:

Inverse.2967:

maddoctor.2738:

Inverse.2967:

By the way the data cited from MMO-Champ earlier is based off of only
“The data used today is a sample made up of 7.3 million characters from 2.3 million accounts, with at least one character active after March 15. The sample is slightly biased, as players who are not in a guild are much less likely to appear in our sample.
"
So this picture is only a subset, we have no idea how representative this subset is for the overall population at that time of the product, only Blizz knows.
The hard fact that was given by Blizz was after the original Vanilla Naxxramas, where they stated just a very very tiny fraction of customers had ever seen that stuff from the inside at that time and the investment was a waste from a budgetary point of view.
Which is pretty much the reason why it re-appeared in Wrath later on to make something of that dev time spent.

2.3 million accounts out of 10 million accounts is a very good sample slightly biased or not. I never said the data is completely accurate but it’s not the 5% that other players are saying. Maybe it’s not 70% but it is a very high and actually significant percentage of the population.

70% of the 2.3 mil sample is 1610000 accounts raiding. Even if those are the ONLY raiders (which is false) it’s still a 16.1% of the total population. Even that 16% is no insignificant number

Yes your point is totally legit content for at least 16% customers would be more than viable, if you spent about that amount of your budget on it.
Its not really a question of how elusive things added to the game might be, it is more a question of how well to allocate from the overall budget so all your customers will feel they got what they paid for and not feel like they paid mostly for sponsoring something they do not want or worse that will make others belittle them.

Also combining your citation and my point about the earlier Naxx statements just illustrates that making sure content accessiblity must always be in balance with dev resource spent on them to make sure your product can go on an generate the most future profit so you can spent even more resource on the next big thing.

Right now it seems ANet has presented Raids to be a really big thing that they put a substantial effort into, and Colin expressedly stated they want it to be hard but access to trying it not to be artificially hindered. At least is what I take from his “bring the class you want statement”.
So I’m pretty sure they will get their balance right without making that stuff a gogo quick skip skip dungeon run later down the line.

So you are saying one raid with 3 wings is more expensive to make than 4 full HoT maps, elite specs, one new profession, mastery system, new WvW borderland, new PvP leagues, Guild Halls and all they require? I think the content they are adding in HoT that is NOT raids is quite significant and nobody should feel their money aren’t well spent.

Raids are totally irrelevant for the game, so its wasted money. And they boasted theyll do much more on regular basis.

Yet the data shows it’s not wasted money AND they’ve made significant additions that are not raids. It all depends on how their raids actually work, maybe after playing them we will all know if it’s wasted money or not.

DaedalusDragon.3754:

Wow… there are a lot of… less intelligent… people here still, after all of these years…

You know LITERALLY nothing about what they are adding in besides that it is a 10 man group content and that it is called “raid”. How about waiting and learning more before complaining about something that will NOT be changing. Did you think that they were going to read your post and think to themselves “You know, that person is right. Let’s trash all of this raid that we have and call it quits.”?

Btw, all of those MMOs that you mentioned are still alive and kicking. I suppose by “dying” you mean that they went f2p (which some haven’t) because you have zero access to metrics for those games. It should be noted that GW2 just went f2p so I guess it’s non-raid focused model didn’t work either and it is now “dying”. In fact, this case is even worse because GW2 was never even a sub based game. A b2p game going f2p is REALLY scary… especially when the price to entry has been $10 or less on many occasions.

You identified yourself correctly. Have a cookie.

maddoctor.2738:

MikaHR.1978:

maddoctor.2738:

Inverse.2967:

By the way the data cited from MMO-Champ earlier is based off of only
“The data used today is a sample made up of 7.3 million characters from 2.3 million accounts, with at least one character active after March 15. The sample is slightly biased, as players who are not in a guild are much less likely to appear in our sample.
"
So this picture is only a subset, we have no idea how representative this subset is for the overall population at that time of the product, only Blizz knows.
The hard fact that was given by Blizz was after the original Vanilla Naxxramas, where they stated just a very very tiny fraction of customers had ever seen that stuff from the inside at that time and the investment was a waste from a budgetary point of view.
Which is pretty much the reason why it re-appeared in Wrath later on to make something of that dev time spent.

2.3 million accounts out of 10 million accounts is a very good sample slightly biased or not. I never said the data is completely accurate but it’s not the 5% that other players are saying. Maybe it’s not 70% but it is a very high and actually significant percentage of the population.

70% of the 2.3 mil sample is 1610000 accounts raiding. Even if those are the ONLY raiders (which is false) it’s still a 16.1% of the total population. Even that 16% is no insignificant number

Its not good since its not representative, its selected.

And GW2 already has LFR – meta events. before select revamps. Or heck, ANY “zerg” event

ANet is NOT speaking about LFR, on contrary the made sure to get messge out that its CHALLENGING

I’m not a WoW veteran but I thought LFR are instanced and not “come when you want, leave when you want, afk in the middle, spam auto attacks and still get max rewards” kind of content like the meta events.

LFR is exactly that, some people even afk at times, it doesn’t matter. Failing looking for raid is nearly impossible. It is instanced but people join leave all the time, noone knows the tactics, bosses die anyway.

So yeah, we basicly have LFR in this game already, it’s basicly silverwastes.

Fox.3469:

maddoctor.2738:

MikaHR.1978:

maddoctor.2738:

Inverse.2967:

By the way the data cited from MMO-Champ earlier is based off of only
“The data used today is a sample made up of 7.3 million characters from 2.3 million accounts, with at least one character active after March 15. The sample is slightly biased, as players who are not in a guild are much less likely to appear in our sample.
"
So this picture is only a subset, we have no idea how representative this subset is for the overall population at that time of the product, only Blizz knows.
The hard fact that was given by Blizz was after the original Vanilla Naxxramas, where they stated just a very very tiny fraction of customers had ever seen that stuff from the inside at that time and the investment was a waste from a budgetary point of view.
Which is pretty much the reason why it re-appeared in Wrath later on to make something of that dev time spent.

2.3 million accounts out of 10 million accounts is a very good sample slightly biased or not. I never said the data is completely accurate but it’s not the 5% that other players are saying. Maybe it’s not 70% but it is a very high and actually significant percentage of the population.

70% of the 2.3 mil sample is 1610000 accounts raiding. Even if those are the ONLY raiders (which is false) it’s still a 16.1% of the total population. Even that 16% is no insignificant number

Its not good since its not representative, its selected.

And GW2 already has LFR – meta events. before select revamps. Or heck, ANY “zerg” event

ANet is NOT speaking about LFR, on contrary the made sure to get messge out that its CHALLENGING

I’m not a WoW veteran but I thought LFR are instanced and not “come when you want, leave when you want, afk in the middle, spam auto attacks and still get max rewards” kind of content like the meta events.

LFR is exactly that, some people even afk at times, it doesn’t matter. Failing looking for raid is nearly impossible. It is instanced but people join leave all the time, noone knows the tactics, bosses die anyway.

So yeah, we basicly have LFR in this game already, it’s basicly silverwastes.

Silverwastes has 100% chance of success but according to the data 70% is doing LFR and 50% is succeeding. How can they be similar?

maddoctor.2738:

MikaHR.1978:

maddoctor.2738:

Inverse.2967:

maddoctor.2738:

Inverse.2967:

By the way the data cited from MMO-Champ earlier is based off of only
“The data used today is a sample made up of 7.3 million characters from 2.3 million accounts, with at least one character active after March 15. The sample is slightly biased, as players who are not in a guild are much less likely to appear in our sample.
"
So this picture is only a subset, we have no idea how representative this subset is for the overall population at that time of the product, only Blizz knows.
The hard fact that was given by Blizz was after the original Vanilla Naxxramas, where they stated just a very very tiny fraction of customers had ever seen that stuff from the inside at that time and the investment was a waste from a budgetary point of view.
Which is pretty much the reason why it re-appeared in Wrath later on to make something of that dev time spent.

2.3 million accounts out of 10 million accounts is a very good sample slightly biased or not. I never said the data is completely accurate but it’s not the 5% that other players are saying. Maybe it’s not 70% but it is a very high and actually significant percentage of the population.

70% of the 2.3 mil sample is 1610000 accounts raiding. Even if those are the ONLY raiders (which is false) it’s still a 16.1% of the total population. Even that 16% is no insignificant number

Yes your point is totally legit content for at least 16% customers would be more than viable, if you spent about that amount of your budget on it.
Its not really a question of how elusive things added to the game might be, it is more a question of how well to allocate from the overall budget so all your customers will feel they got what they paid for and not feel like they paid mostly for sponsoring something they do not want or worse that will make others belittle them.

Also combining your citation and my point about the earlier Naxx statements just illustrates that making sure content accessiblity must always be in balance with dev resource spent on them to make sure your product can go on an generate the most future profit so you can spent even more resource on the next big thing.

Right now it seems ANet has presented Raids to be a really big thing that they put a substantial effort into, and Colin expressedly stated they want it to be hard but access to trying it not to be artificially hindered. At least is what I take from his “bring the class you want statement”.
So I’m pretty sure they will get their balance right without making that stuff a gogo quick skip skip dungeon run later down the line.

So you are saying one raid with 3 wings is more expensive to make than 4 full HoT maps, elite specs, one new profession, mastery system, new WvW borderland, new PvP leagues, Guild Halls and all they require? I think the content they are adding in HoT that is NOT raids is quite significant and nobody should feel their money aren’t well spent.

Raids are totally irrelevant for the game, so its wasted money. And they boasted theyll do much more on regular basis.

Yet the data shows it’s not wasted money AND they’ve made significant additions that are not raids. It all depends on how their raids actually work, maybe after playing them we will all know if it’s wasted money or not.

Its wasted just like in any other game thats moving from it.

WoW can afford to waste as mch as they want, they can waste what GW2 makes in a year and not even blink.

What did Turbine cut first? Oh, i know.

SWTOR?

Wildstar? Any new raids in over a year?

maddoctor.2738:

Fox.3469:

maddoctor.2738:

MikaHR.1978:

maddoctor.2738:

Inverse.2967:

By the way the data cited from MMO-Champ earlier is based off of only
“The data used today is a sample made up of 7.3 million characters from 2.3 million accounts, with at least one character active after March 15. The sample is slightly biased, as players who are not in a guild are much less likely to appear in our sample.
"
So this picture is only a subset, we have no idea how representative this subset is for the overall population at that time of the product, only Blizz knows.
The hard fact that was given by Blizz was after the original Vanilla Naxxramas, where they stated just a very very tiny fraction of customers had ever seen that stuff from the inside at that time and the investment was a waste from a budgetary point of view.
Which is pretty much the reason why it re-appeared in Wrath later on to make something of that dev time spent.

2.3 million accounts out of 10 million accounts is a very good sample slightly biased or not. I never said the data is completely accurate but it’s not the 5% that other players are saying. Maybe it’s not 70% but it is a very high and actually significant percentage of the population.

70% of the 2.3 mil sample is 1610000 accounts raiding. Even if those are the ONLY raiders (which is false) it’s still a 16.1% of the total population. Even that 16% is no insignificant number

Its not good since its not representative, its selected.

And GW2 already has LFR – meta events. before select revamps. Or heck, ANY “zerg” event

ANet is NOT speaking about LFR, on contrary the made sure to get messge out that its CHALLENGING

I’m not a WoW veteran but I thought LFR are instanced and not “come when you want, leave when you want, afk in the middle, spam auto attacks and still get max rewards” kind of content like the meta events.

LFR is exactly that, some people even afk at times, it doesn’t matter. Failing looking for raid is nearly impossible. It is instanced but people join leave all the time, noone knows the tactics, bosses die anyway.

So yeah, we basicly have LFR in this game already, it’s basicly silverwastes.

Silverwastes has 100% chance of success but according to the data 70% is doing LFR and 50% is succeeding. How can they be similar?

Too many people AFK. Its pretty much dragons before changes. Jormag has been know to fail now and then.

MikaHR.1978:

maddoctor.2738:

MikaHR.1978:

maddoctor.2738:

Inverse.2967:

maddoctor.2738:

Inverse.2967:

By the way the data cited from MMO-Champ earlier is based off of only
“The data used today is a sample made up of 7.3 million characters from 2.3 million accounts, with at least one character active after March 15. The sample is slightly biased, as players who are not in a guild are much less likely to appear in our sample.
"
So this picture is only a subset, we have no idea how representative this subset is for the overall population at that time of the product, only Blizz knows.
The hard fact that was given by Blizz was after the original Vanilla Naxxramas, where they stated just a very very tiny fraction of customers had ever seen that stuff from the inside at that time and the investment was a waste from a budgetary point of view.
Which is pretty much the reason why it re-appeared in Wrath later on to make something of that dev time spent.

2.3 million accounts out of 10 million accounts is a very good sample slightly biased or not. I never said the data is completely accurate but it’s not the 5% that other players are saying. Maybe it’s not 70% but it is a very high and actually significant percentage of the population.

70% of the 2.3 mil sample is 1610000 accounts raiding. Even if those are the ONLY raiders (which is false) it’s still a 16.1% of the total population. Even that 16% is no insignificant number

Yes your point is totally legit content for at least 16% customers would be more than viable, if you spent about that amount of your budget on it.
Its not really a question of how elusive things added to the game might be, it is more a question of how well to allocate from the overall budget so all your customers will feel they got what they paid for and not feel like they paid mostly for sponsoring something they do not want or worse that will make others belittle them.

Also combining your citation and my point about the earlier Naxx statements just illustrates that making sure content accessiblity must always be in balance with dev resource spent on them to make sure your product can go on an generate the most future profit so you can spent even more resource on the next big thing.

Right now it seems ANet has presented Raids to be a really big thing that they put a substantial effort into, and Colin expressedly stated they want it to be hard but access to trying it not to be artificially hindered. At least is what I take from his “bring the class you want statement”.
So I’m pretty sure they will get their balance right without making that stuff a gogo quick skip skip dungeon run later down the line.

So you are saying one raid with 3 wings is more expensive to make than 4 full HoT maps, elite specs, one new profession, mastery system, new WvW borderland, new PvP leagues, Guild Halls and all they require? I think the content they are adding in HoT that is NOT raids is quite significant and nobody should feel their money aren’t well spent.

Raids are totally irrelevant for the game, so its wasted money. And they boasted theyll do much more on regular basis.

Yet the data shows it’s not wasted money AND they’ve made significant additions that are not raids. It all depends on how their raids actually work, maybe after playing them we will all know if it’s wasted money or not.

Its wasted just like in any other game thats moving from it.

WoW can afford to waste as mch as they want, they can waste what GW2 makes in a year and not even blink.

What did Turbine cut first? Oh, i know.

Turbine is a bad argument anyway. Lotr didn’t even have such a big playerbase as GW2. Even if WoW could afford to waste all that money it doesn’t make much sense for them to actually waste them. Just you saying it’s wasted doesn’t mean it actually IS.

Fox.3469:

So yeah, we basicly have LFR in this game already, it’s basicly silverwastes.

Yeah shocking, but Silverwastes despite being pretty simple, still have real boss mechanics and thus sometime actually fail, whenever 90% of peeps start being clueless or mouthing off at others instead of doing the fight by just reading what the text below the NPC names say what you must look out for. :P
Funny detail is: this usually does not happen during peak hours but mostly during off-peak hours when actually only peeps with immense amounts of daily-farm-AP on their account profiles still hang around. So much about “effort spent” qualification, huh.

But SW is pretty solid and working for an open world raid type.

Not to step on the toes of the pro raiding faction here too much, but even with the generous? 16% of people doing it, should the effort for it then not go over 15% of the 100% that is HoT to gain a significant success from the start? Pretty sure budget was tight anyway, and 15% of tight is not much. Maybe not put to much hope in it if I were you^^

maddoctor.2738:

MikaHR.1978:

maddoctor.2738:

MikaHR.1978:

maddoctor.2738:

Inverse.2967:

maddoctor.2738:

Inverse.2967:

By the way the data cited from MMO-Champ earlier is based off of only
“The data used today is a sample made up of 7.3 million characters from 2.3 million accounts, with at least one character active after March 15. The sample is slightly biased, as players who are not in a guild are much less likely to appear in our sample.
"
So this picture is only a subset, we have no idea how representative this subset is for the overall population at that time of the product, only Blizz knows.
The hard fact that was given by Blizz was after the original Vanilla Naxxramas, where they stated just a very very tiny fraction of customers had ever seen that stuff from the inside at that time and the investment was a waste from a budgetary point of view.
Which is pretty much the reason why it re-appeared in Wrath later on to make something of that dev time spent.

2.3 million accounts out of 10 million accounts is a very good sample slightly biased or not. I never said the data is completely accurate but it’s not the 5% that other players are saying. Maybe it’s not 70% but it is a very high and actually significant percentage of the population.

70% of the 2.3 mil sample is 1610000 accounts raiding. Even if those are the ONLY raiders (which is false) it’s still a 16.1% of the total population. Even that 16% is no insignificant number

Yes your point is totally legit content for at least 16% customers would be more than viable, if you spent about that amount of your budget on it.
Its not really a question of how elusive things added to the game might be, it is more a question of how well to allocate from the overall budget so all your customers will feel they got what they paid for and not feel like they paid mostly for sponsoring something they do not want or worse that will make others belittle them.

Also combining your citation and my point about the earlier Naxx statements just illustrates that making sure content accessiblity must always be in balance with dev resource spent on them to make sure your product can go on an generate the most future profit so you can spent even more resource on the next big thing.

Right now it seems ANet has presented Raids to be a really big thing that they put a substantial effort into, and Colin expressedly stated they want it to be hard but access to trying it not to be artificially hindered. At least is what I take from his “bring the class you want statement”.
So I’m pretty sure they will get their balance right without making that stuff a gogo quick skip skip dungeon run later down the line.

So you are saying one raid with 3 wings is more expensive to make than 4 full HoT maps, elite specs, one new profession, mastery system, new WvW borderland, new PvP leagues, Guild Halls and all they require? I think the content they are adding in HoT that is NOT raids is quite significant and nobody should feel their money aren’t well spent.

Raids are totally irrelevant for the game, so its wasted money. And they boasted theyll do much more on regular basis.

Yet the data shows it’s not wasted money AND they’ve made significant additions that are not raids. It all depends on how their raids actually work, maybe after playing them we will all know if it’s wasted money or not.

Its wasted just like in any other game thats moving from it.

WoW can afford to waste as mch as they want, they can waste what GW2 makes in a year and not even blink.

What did Turbine cut first? Oh, i know.

Turbine is a bad argument anyway. Lotr didn’t even have such a big playerbase as GW2. Even if WoW could afford to waste all that money it doesn’t make much sense for them to actually waste them. Just you saying it’s wasted doesn’t mean it actually IS.

Scope of number is irrelevant. 5% is 5%.

Blizzard wasted over 100mil titan and dropped it without blinking because “it was not fun”. All that raiding didnt keep 5m (and counting) subbed.

Turbine is GREAT example, because they stubbornly produced them and forum was as toxic and “pro” raiding as you see here.

If they allocated their resources better they would have been more successful. simple.

Direct result is – no more raids in LOTRO.

No more raids in SWTOR for the time being, resources allocated to better stuff. They actually want to make next expansion and further updates count and tee hee – raiding is gone, maybe forever (unless they find money to waste).

GW2 isnt doing THAT great,it certainly isnt wow.

Torolan.5816:

Not to step on the toes of the pro raiding faction here too much, but even with the generous? 16% of people doing it, should the effort for it then not go over 15% of the 100% that is HoT to gain a significant success from the start? Pretty sure budget was tight anyway, and 15% of tight is not much. Maybe not put to much hope in it if I were you^^

I’d guess that less than 15% of the GW2 population is doing PVP and less than 15% of the population is doing WvW in big guild groups (raids) playing “the real WvW”. Still they put way too much on their PVP aspect, and next to nothing on WvW.

It has been suggested on other threads that raids being treated as a separate game mode, just like you split PVE, PVP and WvW, now add a 4th named raids. The real question is if the raid population will be higher than any of the other 3 modes, obviously not higher than PVE, but what about the other two?

MikaHR.1978:

maddoctor.2738:

MikaHR.1978:

maddoctor.2738:

MikaHR.1978:

maddoctor.2738:

Inverse.2967:

maddoctor.2738:

Inverse.2967:

By the way the data cited from MMO-Champ earlier is based off of only
“The data used today is a sample made up of 7.3 million characters from 2.3 million accounts, with at least one character active after March 15. The sample is slightly biased, as players who are not in a guild are much less likely to appear in our sample.
"
So this picture is only a subset, we have no idea how representative this subset is for the overall population at that time of the product, only Blizz knows.
The hard fact that was given by Blizz was after the original Vanilla Naxxramas, where they stated just a very very tiny fraction of customers had ever seen that stuff from the inside at that time and the investment was a waste from a budgetary point of view.
Which is pretty much the reason why it re-appeared in Wrath later on to make something of that dev time spent.

2.3 million accounts out of 10 million accounts is a very good sample slightly biased or not. I never said the data is completely accurate but it’s not the 5% that other players are saying. Maybe it’s not 70% but it is a very high and actually significant percentage of the population.

70% of the 2.3 mil sample is 1610000 accounts raiding. Even if those are the ONLY raiders (which is false) it’s still a 16.1% of the total population. Even that 16% is no insignificant number

Yes your point is totally legit content for at least 16% customers would be more than viable, if you spent about that amount of your budget on it.
Its not really a question of how elusive things added to the game might be, it is more a question of how well to allocate from the overall budget so all your customers will feel they got what they paid for and not feel like they paid mostly for sponsoring something they do not want or worse that will make others belittle them.

Also combining your citation and my point about the earlier Naxx statements just illustrates that making sure content accessiblity must always be in balance with dev resource spent on them to make sure your product can go on an generate the most future profit so you can spent even more resource on the next big thing.

Right now it seems ANet has presented Raids to be a really big thing that they put a substantial effort into, and Colin expressedly stated they want it to be hard but access to trying it not to be artificially hindered. At least is what I take from his “bring the class you want statement”.
So I’m pretty sure they will get their balance right without making that stuff a gogo quick skip skip dungeon run later down the line.

So you are saying one raid with 3 wings is more expensive to make than 4 full HoT maps, elite specs, one new profession, mastery system, new WvW borderland, new PvP leagues, Guild Halls and all they require? I think the content they are adding in HoT that is NOT raids is quite significant and nobody should feel their money aren’t well spent.

Raids are totally irrelevant for the game, so its wasted money. And they boasted theyll do much more on regular basis.

Yet the data shows it’s not wasted money AND they’ve made significant additions that are not raids. It all depends on how their raids actually work, maybe after playing them we will all know if it’s wasted money or not.

Its wasted just like in any other game thats moving from it.

WoW can afford to waste as mch as they want, they can waste what GW2 makes in a year and not even blink.

What did Turbine cut first? Oh, i know.

Turbine is a bad argument anyway. Lotr didn’t even have such a big playerbase as GW2. Even if WoW could afford to waste all that money it doesn’t make much sense for them to actually waste them. Just you saying it’s wasted doesn’t mean it actually IS.

Scope of number is irrelevant. 5% is 5%.

Blizzard wasted over 100mil titan and dropped it without blinking because “it was not fun”. All that raiding didnt keep 5m (and counting) subbed.

Turbine is GREAT example, because they stubbornly produced them and forum was as toxic and “pro” raiding as you see here.

If they allocated their resources better they would have been more successful. simple.

Direct result is – no more raids in LOTRO.

No more raids in SWTOR for the time being, resources allocated to better stuff.

There is one confirmed reason why ANet cannot fail this:
There will be a big beautiful engi flame thrower woman!

How can this go wrong ?

maddoctor.2738:

Torolan.5816:

Not to step on the toes of the pro raiding faction here too much, but even with the generous? 16% of people doing it, should the effort for it then not go over 15% of the 100% that is HoT to gain a significant success from the start? Pretty sure budget was tight anyway, and 15% of tight is not much. Maybe not put to much hope in it if I were you^^

I’d guess that less than 15% of the GW2 population is doing PVP and less than 15% of the population is doing WvW in big guild groups (raids) playing “the real WvW”. Still they put way too much on their PVP aspect, and next to nothing on WvW.

It has been suggested on other threads that raids being treated as a separate game mode, just like you split PVE, PVP and WvW, now add a 4th named raids. The real question is if the raid population will be higher than any of the other 3 modes, obviously not higher than PVE, but what about the other two?

Good argument if you see raids as a new mode of play instead of just PvE. Let´s hope then that Anet does not make the same mistake with the allocation of ressources. Everybody should get happy in his own fashion, but a company should in the best of circumstances work with numbers and not with pipedreams about E-Sports or conformity with other games. If raiding becomes a huge success, I will gladly admit that I was wrong to loathe and that it was the best for GW2 to add it.

http://massivelyop.com/2015/08/31/pax-prime-2015-guild-wars-2-is-never-getting-a-raid-finder/

No group finder

Being a raider myself and sometimes enjoying the ability to group up with other random people, I asked about a group-finder system for raids — whether there is one in HoT or will be in the future. And he explicitly said no — there will not be one at the launch of HoT, and there are no plans to ever put one in. He emphasized that this was intended to be coordinated endgame content, not something a PUG can tackle:

“[For raids,] we focused on players working together on really challenging content. I believe that is part of community building. We cater to a ton to different playstyles. We have content that you don’t have to group for and some that you can do in ad hoc groups. Basically, you can go anywhere you want to join in with other players already.”

maddoctor.2738:

Torolan.5816:

Not to step on the toes of the pro raiding faction here too much, but even with the generous? 16% of people doing it, should the effort for it then not go over 15% of the 100% that is HoT to gain a significant success from the start? Pretty sure budget was tight anyway, and 15% of tight is not much. Maybe not put to much hope in it if I were you^^

I’d guess that less than 15% of the GW2 population is doing PVP and less than 15% of the population is doing WvW in big guild groups (raids) playing “the real WvW”. Still they put way too much on their PVP aspect, and next to nothing on WvW.

It has been suggested on other threads that raids being treated as a separate game mode, just like you split PVE, PVP and WvW, now add a 4th named raids. The real question is if the raid population will be higher than any of the other 3 modes, obviously not higher than PVE, but what about the other two?

WWW has like 1 dev working on it occasionally. It has received only few minor updates in 3 years, yet ANet confirmed it performed beyond every expectation.

Now, take a raid, make only some cosmetic changes in 3 years and see how far youll get with it.

Making raids is as insisting on e-sports. it AINT happening.

Can we please have a raid for xmas where Tixx’s infinarium golem ship will go all crazy for real this time and attack new LA ?

Raiding should get the same level of support as fractals. No more and no less. And it should definitely take a back seat to areas where guilds and large groups play together (eg WvW, guild missions and open world).

It is an added feature of GW2 – one among many. If it is somehow placed above the other end game activities, such as guild missions, activities, open world, fractals, wvw, living story, etc, then it changes the nature/direction of the game from what many of us have come to love in the past 3 years (and that made this game’s friendly environment) – something that would be a huge mistake for ANET.

That said, I don’t think that will happen. I expect raids to look alot like fractals in terms of dev support moving forward. Essentially it will be another fun thing for players to do, but not the major end game focus for devs.

maddoctor.2738:

MikaHR.1978:

maddoctor.2738:

Inverse.2967:

maddoctor.2738:

Inverse.2967:

By the way the data cited from MMO-Champ earlier is based off of only
“The data used today is a sample made up of 7.3 million characters from 2.3 million accounts, with at least one character active after March 15. The sample is slightly biased, as players who are not in a guild are much less likely to appear in our sample.
"
So this picture is only a subset, we have no idea how representative this subset is for the overall population at that time of the product, only Blizz knows.
The hard fact that was given by Blizz was after the original Vanilla Naxxramas, where they stated just a very very tiny fraction of customers had ever seen that stuff from the inside at that time and the investment was a waste from a budgetary point of view.
Which is pretty much the reason why it re-appeared in Wrath later on to make something of that dev time spent.

2.3 million accounts out of 10 million accounts is a very good sample slightly biased or not. I never said the data is completely accurate but it’s not the 5% that other players are saying. Maybe it’s not 70% but it is a very high and actually significant percentage of the population.

70% of the 2.3 mil sample is 1610000 accounts raiding. Even if those are the ONLY raiders (which is false) it’s still a 16.1% of the total population. Even that 16% is no insignificant number

Yes your point is totally legit content for at least 16% customers would be more than viable, if you spent about that amount of your budget on it.
Its not really a question of how elusive things added to the game might be, it is more a question of how well to allocate from the overall budget so all your customers will feel they got what they paid for and not feel like they paid mostly for sponsoring something they do not want or worse that will make others belittle them.

Also combining your citation and my point about the earlier Naxx statements just illustrates that making sure content accessiblity must always be in balance with dev resource spent on them to make sure your product can go on an generate the most future profit so you can spent even more resource on the next big thing.

Right now it seems ANet has presented Raids to be a really big thing that they put a substantial effort into, and Colin expressedly stated they want it to be hard but access to trying it not to be artificially hindered. At least is what I take from his “bring the class you want statement”.
So I’m pretty sure they will get their balance right without making that stuff a gogo quick skip skip dungeon run later down the line.

So you are saying one raid with 3 wings is more expensive to make than 4 full HoT maps, elite specs, one new profession, mastery system, new WvW borderland, new PvP leagues, Guild Halls and all they require? I think the content they are adding in HoT that is NOT raids is quite significant and nobody should feel their money aren’t well spent.

Raids are totally irrelevant for the game, so its wasted money. And they boasted theyll do much more on regular basis.

Yet the data shows it’s not wasted money AND they’ve made significant additions that are not raids. It all depends on how their raids actually work, maybe after playing them we will all know if it’s wasted money or not.

“[For raids,] we focused on players working together on really challenging content."

no LFR, in literal and metaphorical sense.

there you go

That’s a major bummer :/

MikaHR.1978:

WWW has like 1 dev working on it occasionally. It has received only few minor updates in 3 years, yet ANet confirmed it performed beyond every expectation.

Lol, wut? Anet has confirmed that it has worked beyond exception? As it is, speaking from the prespective of logistics, recognition, fame and replayability, only a poor DAOC WvW clone, imagine how many people would play it if some really minor additions were made. But that is obviously of not much concern for Anet.

This company sometimes…^^

For clarification:
“No – what I said is we won’t be adding an auto-raid party creator that you just queue and it throws you in a group (raid finder).

Or at least, I think that’s what Larry was asking if we were doing, possible I misunderstood"
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3j4313/pax_prime_2015_guild_wars_2_is_never_getting_a/cum3nzk

Good. There’s a reason I left WoW at Cataclysm.

Pug raids are miserable. They’re either an organizational disaster or they’re pitted against content that’s made easy enough for a pug clear.

The latter of those two options is the worst.

Here’s the moment I decided to quit raiding:

I was entering the Deatwing’s Lair raid with a Raid LFG. We breezed through every boss, downing them without a wipe. I defeated Deathwing by doing almost nothing but tab targetting and following the mob of pugs. When the great and legendary Deatwing died to this group…I realized that there was nothing to be proud of.

Deathwing suddenly felt like a pushover schmuck and there was nothing any challenging hard mode could do to fix his ruined reputation.

Please ArenaNet. Please, please, keep this content challenging and don’t ever build out a group finder. Don’t just cater to casual content and don’t just cater to hardcore content. Provide both and embrace a complex and diverse playerbase!

Torolan.5816:

MikaHR.1978:

WWW has like 1 dev working on it occasionally. It has received only few minor updates in 3 years, yet ANet confirmed it performed beyond every expectation.

Lol, wut? Anet has confirmed that it has worked beyond exception? As it is, speaking from the prespective of logistics, recognition, fame and replayability, only a poor DAOC WvW clone, imagine how many people would play it if some really minor additions were made. But that is obviously of not much concern for Anet.

This company sometimes…^^

Well that was quite a while ago, but it performed admirably for something almost abandoned. It certainly performed better than any 3 yo raid in any game.

No worries, Zenimax treats AvA same.

They have a good thing and they dont care about it. Zenimax also chose to do raids and PvE instances instead. Naturally, had to ho B2P and if i wasnt for consoles its a quesion if ESO would be running much longer.

Dahkeus.8243:

Please ArenaNet. Please, please, keep this content challenging and don’t ever build out a group finder. Don’t just cater to casual content and don’t just cater to hardcore content. Provide both and embrace a complex and diverse playerbase!

Pick Up Group does not mean you get a flock of schmucks.
It just means you get a group created ad-hoc, this does not necessarily mean it will be randomized like an LFR group or created without care of a good group lead.
Actually I remember doing Onyxia Server-First with a pug organized by some very dedicated dwarf lead, while the “effort”-based closed group progress guilds were struggling for a few more weeks on it.

His clarification that there will be no “just put a randomized group” tool pretty much says that. You might still just build yourself a nice PUG from the way the regular group finder works, ain’t it say that ?

Dahkeus.8243:

Good. There’s a reason I left WoW at Cataclysm.

Pug raids are miserable. They’re either an organizational disaster or they’re pitted against content that’s made easy enough for a pug clear.

The latter of those two options is the worst.

Here’s the moment I decided to quit raiding:

I was entering the Deatwing’s Lair raid with a Raid LFG. We breezed through every boss, downing them without a wipe. I defeated Deathwing by doing almost nothing but tab targetting and following the mob of pugs. When the great and legendary Deatwing died to this group…I realized that there was nothing to be proud of.

Deathwing suddenly felt like a pushover schmuck and there was nothing any challenging hard mode could do to fix his ruined reputation.

Please ArenaNet. Please, please, keep this content challenging and don’t ever build out a group finder. Don’t just cater to casual content and don’t just cater to hardcore content. Provide both and embrace a complex and diverse playerbase!

Your problem has nothing to do with using an LFG to get into a group quick and easy.

You would have encountered the same thing had you joined them buy spamming “LFG Deathwing Paladin GS 2billion etc etc etc” They were simply a competent group with gear high enough to do it.

LFG doesn’t make the game harder or easier, it makes it more accessible to people and allows them to get into the content easier, this is simply an extension of not having a Dungeon Finder. Anet didn’t want to do it then, they’re not doing it now.

Dahkeus.8243:

Good. There’s a reason I left WoW at Cataclysm.

Pug raids are miserable. They’re either an organizational disaster or they’re pitted against content that’s made easy enough for a pug clear.

The latter of those two options is the worst.

Here’s the moment I decided to quit raiding:

I was entering the Deatwing’s Lair raid with a Raid LFG. We breezed through every boss, downing them without a wipe. I defeated Deathwing by doing almost nothing but tab targetting and following the mob of pugs. When the great and legendary Deatwing died to this group…I realized that there was nothing to be proud of.

Deathwing suddenly felt like a pushover schmuck and there was nothing any challenging hard mode could do to fix his ruined reputation.

Please ArenaNet. Please, please, keep this content challenging and don’t ever build out a group finder. Don’t just cater to casual content and don’t just cater to hardcore content. Provide both and embrace a complex and diverse playerbase!

Wow, this is so sad that it is funny again, do you have some more chilling tales in your warchest maybe? If there is ever a party in WVW that advocates for a map where only people that have defeated content X in GW2, I hope people vote you for their president there. Of course only so long if someone comes along and dethrones you, preferably in a new, top notch raid.^^

So I guess that you already mastered that raid on a higher level of difficulty and had either nothing to loose or win from doing it again, or did not get the stuff you wanted in the hard version. And still you could not stand to see people beat the content on an easier level for a place at the sun too?

Wow, jost wow.

Didnt they say this very same thing in regarding Raiding generally?

Its meaningless anti-WoW dev talk.

Why are you still here Mika? I thought you and your opinions stated as facts and made up statistics pulled out of your rear quit?

As expected. Challenging content doesn’t go well with PUGs. When designing content for actual groups, they balance the content around that fact and the assumption that tools like voice chat are used. They’ll also be able to force higher requirements and players won’t be able to complain when they’re kicked/etc.

PUGs will eventually be able to do it however, as soon as a strat becomes well known. Show your Liadris.

Guilds will also likely PUG/sell spots eventually.

Sicarius.4639:

You would have encountered the same thing had you joined them buy spamming “LFG Deathwing Paladin GS 2billion etc etc etc” They were simply a competent group with gear high enough to do it.

They were likely referring to LFR, which is a casual version of the raids specifically intended for randoms. They become much easier and further reduce in difficulty as you fail. The intention is to allow everyone the chance to see the content. Despite some people hating on it, LFD and LFR was one of the best things added to WoW because it let people easily access the content and see the story.

Good. LFR killed wow. We already have dumbed down raids that any bear bow spamming kid can complete before bed time. Time for something new!

Don’t like it, don’t do it. There is content for everyone, not just for you.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Good. LFR killed wow. We already have dumbed down raids that any bear bow spamming kid can complete before bed time. Time for something new!

Don’t like it, don’t do it. There is content for everyone, not just for you your class.

Could become a thing.

MikaHR.1978:

Blizzard wasted over 100mil titan and dropped it without blinking because “it was not fun”. All that raiding didnt keep 5m (and counting) subbed.

Having played WoD and talked with other long-term WoW players, this is not only incredibly reductionistic but also wildly off-point regarding the player issues surrounding WoD. The reasons for quitting included a FAR LARGER list of issues beyond raiding. Garrisons? Ashram PvP? No flying? You hate raids. We get it. But you should at least present other games honestly.

Substatic.6958:

It’s ironic how the anti-raiding community is proving to be more elitist than the actual raiders.

“YOU can’t have this mode because I don’t LIKE IT! ME ME ME!”

Its funny to see this. From what Ive seen in the last days, many ( not all ) people who dislike Raiding are just telling that Raids have no real Place in GW2, you should play WoW, Raids are just places where a bunch of elistists are meeting, its just for ppl who rub their superiority into others noses etc etc as Reasons why this Game can’t have Raids.

But truth to be told, GW2 can only profit from good Raids who are challenging, fun, rewarding and unique. 10 Man are a good Raid size, its definetly more than a normal Dungeon but small enough for Organising Things or filling up Places with Randoms.

Will the first Raid in GW2 be a good Raid? I don’t know. It is the first Raid Anet is ever making with this Combat System. I expect Balancing Issues. Some Bosses will be undertuned and some really overtuned, some really fun and others will be boring. Anet does not have experience with Raids but they have a Raid Designer ( a good one if the Rumors are true ) so I think that the Raids will be fun enough even if they will have issues.

It would be great if they could make challenging content without resorting to stat gates, gimmicks, or unfair disparities between the mobs and you (e.g., rapid fire attacks that last longer than a dodge, four second knockdowns when my high cooldown BV has 50 second CD and only last 1.5 seconds, homing bug attacks that see through vanish, more attacks than I have stamina to dodge, etc., and that’s just world events though to be fair they assume you’ll have enough people to make it fair) The monster can down you in a couple of hits whereas you need a kajillion to bring it down, you strain to get away from some but they can effortlessly and trivially close a gap, etc.

Wait…there’s still WvW and sPvP which are fair. Raiding in other games is cheap and isn’t just gear gated but requires teams of upwards of 40 people. Organizing even a small group can be trouble, and there’s obvious potential for disaster with 40 people. I remember in another MMO needing to heal on my DPS specced scoundrel since people take too much damage.

What I like about GW2 is that roles can actually be flexible depending on the situation, you can go mostly berzerker but have some celestial and zealot (needlessly rare for some reason -_- ) for survivability. Zealot’s is good becuase ferocity contributes to crit damage, which is an RNG based process whereas extra healing power in place of some of it adds some survivability without sinking damage output too much.

Wrong, Its the 20th century, any game with out a group finder is just taking steps backwards. LFR didnt do anything to WOW, 1+ yr of the same content killed WOW. Even the cutting edge guilds use it to become somewhat aware of the simple mecanics, and a gear filler for there progression teams. If anything it is the reason some people still play.

Now for GW2, this goes against what this company is about, or so they say they are. (The Elitist Community). Now I know we already have that in the dungeon groups, ie zerker only. After three years still the same dungeon problem. And now they think that they can do 10 man content in premades only. I dont see how anyone else doesnt see the disconnect. They are trying to make Elitist content in a Casual game.

inb4 we see a BETA LFR in 6 months.

My topic was merged so sorry if some of this is a repeat from earlier in this thread.

Before I begin I’d like to emphasize that these are just my personal ideas and ideals of raiding and how it can relate to GW2. These are by no means what I consider the perfect solution and the most complete list of what raiding in GW2 should be, but some ideas that I’ve been pondering over. Some of these ideas may already exist in some form and if they are I apologize for not referencing them all directly. You all may understand this game far better than I.

1. Overview (also a TL:DR if need be):
I’d like raiding to be composed of challenges that really takes advantage of the combat in GW2 and on the surface may look almost like a weird conglomeration of pvp combat in a pve environment. Essentially I’d like enemy trash mobs and bosses to employ abilities that are commonly associated with player behaviors (ex: condi cleanse, soft CC, dodges, etc.) and profession behaviors (ex: stealth, blinks, illusions, etc.). With the purpose being that it allows players to choose to use existing burst mechanics to burn down a mob or a boss at the risk of not bringing significant enough support and control to keep that mob from avoiding damage.

2. “Trash” Mob behavior and value:
I’d like to see mobs in general have nuances that contribute to the feeling of progressing through a raid. For instance trash mobs have drops that contribute to summoning the boss at the end of the wing. Or in order to summon the boss, the raid must control 2-3 points at the same time while combating trash mobs in order to draw out the rage of the boss who comes down, wipes out the trash in the process and begins the encounter. This may mean that players will have to tailor their build to deal with trash and a boss without the time to swap builds to optimize for either individually. Another idea may be to have players select which of the three wings of trash mobs they’d like to go through before reaching the boss encounter. Each path will give a certain group buff that may make the encounter easier in different ways (ex: speed boost, percentage increase in endurance recharge, etc)

3. Boss Encounters:
I think it would be interesting if bosses adopted abilities that are found on player professions, including large channeled elite abilities that can only be interrupted after breaking through a break bar and allowing a player to interrupt that cast. Alternatively a fight can consist of a pair of bosses that have to be burned down simultaneously and at interval phases, players must glide from one boss to the other in order to do damage (players only have a limited time on a boss before it becomes immune temporarily). I’d also love phased boss encounters that rely on players to burn down summoned adds before they reach a point. These adds can be subject to CC (or even given their own break bar) and can act as a wipe mechanic if players fail to target swap to the add. Bosses can also randomly swap targets or gain a focus target periodically to force a player to play defensively or get some support from the raid to live. Lastly I’d love to see GW2 raids take advantage of large rooms that are cut off by large enemy AOE rings, forcing players to be mindful of their position during the fight.

4. What I hope does not appear in GW2 Raids:
I’m sure this list will be deliberately short because of my own limited perspective but I hope there are two things that do not make it in GW2 raids. I hope enrage timers (Boss time limits that require fixed DPS requirements to complete) are not a part. I want Raids to rely on personal performance in avoiding/mitigating damage taken and positioning to be more of a factor than pumping out raw DPS in order to beat a boss. Now I can be ok with high DPS glassy groups being a part of raiding, but I think an enrage timer is something that really isolates the “damage” portion of their, “damage, support, and control,” set up in GW2 combat. The other part I hope isn’t a part of raids is static bosses. GW2 prides itself in it’s action oriented combat style and keeping a boss moving to take advantage of terrain, LOSing players, etc. would go a long way to making things feel dynamic. Make the bosses pathing predictable and static encounter guides will go up to match it.

Well thanks for reading of all this if you did. I don’t think these are all my thoughts but they are the ones that come to mind at the moment. What do you think of these? Feel free to disagree with everything I have here. It’s just my opinion that I’d like to share.

Its time to make friends who are good at this game. Then you don’t have to worry about fining raid partners.

LFR and many kind of difficulty killed hardcore raiding in WoW. It was one of the worst ideas Blizzard. Players don’t want progress, they’re going to lfr and … that’s all. They watched the raid and they are not interested in other difficulties. Semi-hardcore and hardcore guilds becomes more difficult to recruit people for roster. The number of raiding guilds redused (you can see it in wowprogress) compared with votlk.
But WoW was originally a game just about the raids. This situation is perfectly shows that a lot of people are basically tired of hardcore raids and games about the raids (Wildstar, Rift).
It’s useless to compare wow with gv2 in which raids never happened. But, conclusions could be done. Format is outdated.

Natto.5819:

Its time to make friends who are good at this game. Then you don’t have to worry about fining raid partners.

LFF: Looking for friends, META Raid only, PING Build+ Gear :P

Inverse.2967:

LFF: Looking for friends, META Raid only, PING Build+ Gear :P

WoW all over again, I didn’t miss it in fact it’s why I left. Completely unimpressed about the announcements this past weekend. Raiding which I didn’t think was necessary or needed c/w content gated legendary armor to boot. I can here the elitism crap flooding TeamSpeak and map chat already.

Well, my topic got merged into this one, when it was clearly distinct from this thread.
It’s like the mod didn’t want any negative responses. I hate when they deliberately do that.

Dahkeus.8243:

Good. There’s a reason I left WoW at Cataclysm.

Pug raids are miserable. They’re either an organizational disaster or they’re pitted against content that’s made easy enough for a pug clear.

The latter of those two options is the worst.

Here’s the moment I decided to quit raiding:

I was entering the Deatwing’s Lair raid with a Raid LFG. We breezed through every boss, downing them without a wipe. I defeated Deathwing by doing almost nothing but tab targetting and following the mob of pugs. When the great and legendary Deatwing died to this group…I realized that there was nothing to be proud of.

Deathwing suddenly felt like a pushover schmuck and there was nothing any challenging hard mode could do to fix his ruined reputation.

Please ArenaNet. Please, please, keep this content challenging and don’t ever build out a group finder. Don’t just cater to casual content and don’t just cater to hardcore content. Provide both and embrace a complex and diverse playerbase!

PUG raids work well in GW2. Teq and Wurm, and Vinewrath aren’t “disasters”.

nexxe.7081:

Dahkeus.8243:

Good. There’s a reason I left WoW at Cataclysm.

Pug raids are miserable. They’re either an organizational disaster or they’re pitted against content that’s made easy enough for a pug clear.

The latter of those two options is the worst.

Here’s the moment I decided to quit raiding:

I was entering the Deatwing’s Lair raid with a Raid LFG. We breezed through every boss, downing them without a wipe. I defeated Deathwing by doing almost nothing but tab targetting and following the mob of pugs. When the great and legendary Deatwing died to this group…I realized that there was nothing to be proud of.

Deathwing suddenly felt like a pushover schmuck and there was nothing any challenging hard mode could do to fix his ruined reputation.

Please ArenaNet. Please, please, keep this content challenging and don’t ever build out a group finder. Don’t just cater to casual content and don’t just cater to hardcore content. Provide both and embrace a complex and diverse playerbase!

PUG raids work well in GW2. Teq and Wurm, and Vinewrath aren’t “disasters”.

They also aren’t very challenging.

Vlad Morbius.1759:

Inverse.2967:

LFF: Looking for friends, META Raid only, PING Build+ Gear :P

WoW all over again, I didn’t miss it in fact it’s why I left. Completely unimpressed about the announcements this past weekend. Raiding which I didn’t think was necessary or needed c/w content gated legendary armor to boot. I can here the elitism crap flooding TeamSpeak and map chat already.

But there is already elitism in the game…
Look at the LFG. Look at the forums.
It’s all zerker gear or experienced or X number AP, etc.

An MMO is a sandbox for its players. There will always be elitism. Even in the most casual games.

Its optional. Thats the important fact. You don’t need to raid, nor fractals, WvW or PvP, etc. You do w/e you like.
And if you do want to enjoy that content without the elitists? Then make a group yourself.

Vlad Morbius.1759:

Inverse.2967:

LFF: Looking for friends, META Raid only, PING Build+ Gear :P

WoW all over again, I didn’t miss it in fact it’s why I left. Completely unimpressed about the announcements this past weekend. Raiding which I didn’t think was necessary or needed c/w content gated legendary armor to boot. I can here the elitism crap flooding TeamSpeak and map chat already.

GW2 already has this in all of its instanced PVE content. Nearly every dungeon/fractal asks for metazerk.

You should have left years ago in this case.

Substatic.6958:

Vlad Morbius.1759:

Inverse.2967:

LFF: Looking for friends, META Raid only, PING Build+ Gear :P

WoW all over again, I didn’t miss it in fact it’s why I left. Completely unimpressed about the announcements this past weekend. Raiding which I didn’t think was necessary or needed c/w content gated legendary armor to boot. I can here the elitism crap flooding TeamSpeak and map chat already.

GW2 already has this in all of its instanced PVE content. Nearly every dungeon/fractal asks for metazerk.

You should have left years ago in this case.

Somewhat true, there is a zerker group, but there is also the other side to that. Thats why LFG is nice, I can choose one closer to what I am looking for, if not, I create one.

inb4 map chat in Lions Arch

“7 zerker warriors, 2 zerker thiefs, need 1 zerker mesmer for time warp, and skipping, ping gear, achievement points, or gtfo.