Guild Wars 2

Exclusive rewards are like medals.

I imagine we’ve been over this, but exclusive rewards are like medals in some ways, but distinctly and unignorably NOT like medals in others.

So long as these rewards have any value OTHER than as a token of accomplishment, such as either statistical OR cosmetic value, they cannot be treated merely as status symbols, and must also be considered as inherently valued, and desirable by those who have zero interest in the supposed “status” attached to them.

If you want to plead “they are used as a token of status,” then restrict it ONLY to items that have no value outside of this status-marking capability.

The world doesn’t work that way and neither should GW2.

There are very very very few items in this world that can be acquired ONLY through specific merit, and yet also have an inherent function as an object. Most “status rewards” come in the form of small discs or statuettes of metal, that have little to no value as an object when disassociated from the achievements they recognize. Off the top of my head I cannot think of any such awards that are worth much more than their weight in raw materials if not for the connection to whatever caused them to be given out. Pretty much any object of actual inherent purpose in this world, such as clothing, vehicles, media, etc., all you need to do is spend money on it, and you can acquire that money wherever you like.

Again because some actual visual swag is much more fun than just a title.

It is. It is fun for you to have it, no denying that, but it would be equally fun for some other player to have it, even if he has no interest in PvP, and your fun is not more important than his fun. The point is, you cannot claim that PvP armor should be exclusive to PvP because it is necessary to denote a difference between PvPers and non-PvPers. There are other methods of doing this that leave no collateral damage.

I want it to be the other way around. I want people to play the game-modes they like, become good at it and eventually have a nice exclusive reward to show off for it, something they can show their friends and say “look what I got, isn’t it shiny? I got it for beating this incredibly difficult raid”.

And they can do that, but if someone else really likes that skin just because they really like that skin, they should be able to get it too, even if they can’t do that raid.

We both know that’s BS. Yes I take pride int he accomplishment itself, but merely achieving an impressive accomplishment without being rewarded for it gets incredibly boring really fast.

That’s very sad, but I don’t see why it should be anyone else’s problem.

Lest be honest, who doesn’t like to receive a big golden medal and wear it proudly on his chest after proving that you’re the best at whatever it is you earned that golden medal for?

I’m not even touching this one.

The pride and value doesn’t come from the exclusivity, it comes from being the best at something and having something nice to show for it.

But that’s basically two ways of saying the same thing. It’s only exclusive because only the best can have it (in that case, at least). If everyone can get it, if it’s not exclusive, then you wouldn’t have to be the best to get it. So if you take pride in having a mark of being the best, then you are taking pride in that mark’s exclusivity.

And none of those are as fun as having an armor or weapon skin that I can wear on my character.

Maybe not, but likewise none of those are as sad as not being able to get the skin you want, so you have to lose a little of your fun to make a bunch of other people happier, and I’m ok with that. It’s not about you.

You might complain about people enjoying exclusive shinies that they can show off and gives them bragging rights, but your behavior is much worse. I rather deal with a bragger who actually earned his bragging rights than a spoiled jealous type who feels he’s entitled to all the shinies.

Yes, the typical mindset of the “haves” turn it all around that the “have nots” are the bad guys. I’m not impressed.

Ohoni, the false premise you have, is that armor is only about customizing your look. Some armors are more about what they represent than how a player wants his/her avatar to look.

And the false premise you have is that armor is not about customizing your look. If it were not, then why would it alter the way your character looks? If a player only wants a representation of accomplishment, as I’ve noted, there are numerous ways to do that which have nothing to do with character customization.

which isnt to say people shouldnt be able to get them, but rather they should be able to wear them, when they can represent what the armor is supposed to represent.

Which is often completely arbitrary to the look itself. My semi-main guardian is wearing a Glorious helm. Is that because I’m awesome at PvP? No, I’m fairly middling at PvP so far as I can tell, but it wasn’t hard to earn a few pieces of Glorious armor over the months, and the Glorious helm looked slightly cooler than the Council Guard helm he had been wearing, and fit his “winged avenger” style quite well. Did the Council Guard helm indicate that I was a dungeon fiend? No, I ran CM like 5-10 times total, just enough to get him that helm and boots for my Ele. Haven’t been back since. He has Luminous gloves and boots, does that mean I don’t own the rest? No, I do own the rest, I just don’t like the design of them as well as the other bits he has on. Do I care that someone could look me over and guess at what I have and have not done? Not in the least. I do take some pride in the overall aesthetic of the ensemble, but not in any of the tasks I did to unlock the pieces themselves.

Basically sometimes the game, and personal appearance as a factor of that, has to come before people showing off to people they falsely assume care what they’ve done.

Ohoni.6057:

I’m switched my own primary activities around numerous times, and it usually had nothing to do with any rewards specific to that activity. So long as people do not feel that their time would be wasted in doing something else, they are more likely to change roles than quit, what makes them likely to quit is if they believe that no other role would be worth doing.

And that is the entire problem, you look at this ONLY from your perspective, and i get your perspective cause i have done the same, i’ve had a period i played mainly WvW, then fractals, and so on. But i’m not looking at this for me, i would play the game with your system in place, no problem, and i would have fun and do many different things, but we are the exception to the rule, and i understand this, you don’t. They have to appeal to as many people as they can, and while i understand and respect your point, you fail to understand and respect mine, i don’t think your idea is bad for me personally, but it won’t appeal to many people, wich is entirely why it is an impossible thing to do.

More people would be upset about not having unique rewards then there would be about having them, it’s as simple as that. Mmo’s have conditioned people in this way, and sadly enough breaking from that point is something GW2 can’t do without losing allot of these people.

And no we aren’t better off without them. You can’t expect that stance of Arenanet.

I mean how far do you want to take this “inclusive” approach Ohoni? Do you think the exclusive dungeon armors (that you can only get by grinding the specific dungeon that the armor belongs to) should no longer be exclusive?

They aren’t you can also get them via PvP reward tracks. But yes, I would also open them up to PvE reward tracks, and allow you to trade one type of dungeon token for another, at a lossy exchange rate.

What about the Order armors (Vigil, Whispers and Priory armors), should they no longer be exclusive to the specific Order they belong to?

Hmm. Interesting one. I’m less concerned about this one as you only need to get one character up to the level 50 story for each and you can trade all the pieces between characters after that, but sure, once you become Pact Commander I don’t see why you shouldn’t be able to buy from the other orders as well.

What about the Tequatl weapons that you can only get from Tequatl’s Hoard, a box that only drops from successfully killing Tequatl?

Or what about the Triple-Trouble Jungle Wurm armors?

Both should drop “Tequatl tokens” and “Great Wurm” tokens respectively, so that players of those events who never get the drop will be able to save up and buy the weapons/armor directly from an NPC. These tokens should also be available, in smaller numbers, from PvP and PvE reward tracks, and as some sort of daily event achievements related to Sparkfly and Bloodtide. These alternative methods should not be as efficient as running the two core events on a daily basis, and considerably less so if you’re lucky enough to get the drops directly, but they should provide an alternative, slower path for those that do not wish to do those events.

Obviously a piece of armor is much more than just a fancy decoration item. Sometimes a piece of armor represents something. Sometimes it sends a message. Sometimes it shows off that you have done a specific activity and sometimes it shows off you’re the best at something.

And as I’ve pointed out, there are ways of sending that message that don’t involve fancy clothing, and those methods should be used instead. In the real world, you can choose to send a message to someone by writing it on haute couture, and shipping it to them, but you can also send it on common stationary in an envelope, and this is typically the preferred method.

And that is the entire problem, you look at this ONLY from your perspective, and i get your perspective cause i have done the same. But i’m not looking at this for me, i would play the game with your system in place, no problem, and i would have fun and do many different things, but we are the exception to the rule, and i understand this, you don’t.

I don’t see any reason to believe that we are exceptional. So long as various types of gameplay exist, and people have cause to pursue them, I don’t believe there are players who wouldn’t. Players that quit do so for one of two reasons, either A. None of the activities in the game interest them significantly anymore, or B. The activities that they do enjoy are seen as too unrewarding relative to other activities, so they stick with the “rewarding” activities until they get sick of it. Balancing rewards solves the second one, but really nothing can solve the first aside from them continuing to add fun new gameplay.

More people would be upset about not having unique rewards then there would be about having them, it’s as simple as that.

I don’t believe that for a second. For some games? Maybe, but GW2 has not fostered that sort of culture, which is part of the reason that the addition of raiding is causing such a culture clash from people who expect it to be exactly like raiding in those other games, and those hoping that it won’t break what made GW2 better than those other games. and I’m sure that the players who do want unique rewards will be very vocal in their displeasure, as they were about not being satisfied with GW2’s dungeon systems for the first three years, but that doesn’t mean that they make up a majority, or that their continuing to play the game is of any real importance. Most of the hardcore raider type players left screaming after the first few months of the game, and the game’s gotten along just fine without them. The people who have been with the game for the past three years are mostly those who have nothing in common with those players.

Ohoni.6057:

So long as these rewards have any value OTHER than as a token of accomplishment, such as either statistical OR cosmetic value, they cannot be treated merely as status symbols, and must also be considered as inherently valued, and desirable by those who have zero interest in the supposed “status” attached to them.

So what? Are you saying rewards and status symbols should never be aesthetically pleasing or function as decoration? That’s ridiculous.

Ohoni.6057:

There are very very very few items in this world that can be acquired ONLY through specific merit, and yet also have an inherent function as an object.

Except that’s complete nonsense. Not sure if you ever watch Tour De France but in that sport the person who’s currently number 1 gets to wear a yellow/golden outfit. No one else gets to wear a yellow outfit except for the best. That yellow outfit basically serves exactly the same purpose as an exclusive armor in GW2 for being the best at something.

Ohoni.6057:

It is. It is fun for you to have it, no denying that, but it would be equally fun for some other player to have it, even if he has no interest in PvP, and your fun is not more important than his fun.

He can have equally much fun by doing whatever he likes or is good at, and get his own exclusive rewards for that specific game mode, rewards that I’ll probably not have nor ever get.

Exclusive rewards is not unfair, no matter how hard you try to make it seem that way.

Ohoni.6057:

And they can do that, but if someone else really likes that skin just because they really like that skin, they should be able to get it too, even if they can’t do that raid.

No they shouldn’t. If they can’t do that raid then they don’t deserve that armor.

Ohoni.6057:

But that’s basically two ways of saying the same thing. It’s only exclusive because only the best can have it (in that case, at least). If everyone can get it, if it’s not exclusive, then you wouldn’t have to be the best to get it. So if you take pride in having a mark of being the best, then you are taking pride in that mark’s exclusivity.

What you just said makes absolute zero sense. Please try again.

Ohoni.6057:

Maybe not, but likewise none of those are as sad as not being able to get the skin you want, so you have to lose a little of your fun to make a bunch of other people happier, and I’m ok with that. It’s not about you.

It’s not about you either.

Those people who can’t get the exclusive piece of armor because they don’t want to do that specific content are just gonna have to deal with it. They’ll probably get other exclusive rewards that I personally will never get. And I’ll just be dealing with that, like a grown up, without complaining about how I think it’s unfair that some people have shinies that I don’t have. They have worked for it, I haven’t, so they deserve it, I don’t.

Ohoni.6057:

Yes, the typical mindset of the “haves” turn it all around that the “have nots” are the bad guys. I’m not impressed.

No, only the “have nots” who act like entitled spoiled little brats are the bad guys.

Besides, what makes you think I’m a “have” anyway? I might never get legendary raid armor myself. And I’m fine with that. Because I’m grown up, an adult, not an spoiled entitled little child.

Ohoni.6057:

And the false premise you have is that armor is not about customizing your look. If it were not, then why would it alter the way your character looks? If a player only wants a representation of accomplishment, as I’ve noted, there are numerous ways to do that which have nothing to do with character customization.

Euhm no, I never said that. Armor can be both. I can be a piece of decoration as well as a status symbol or a trophy. Even the cavemen knew that, who would often wear the skin of their prey as a mantle of pride and the teeth of their pray as a necklace to show off their kill-count.

Ohoni.6057:

Which is often completely arbitrary to the look itself. My semi-main guardian is wearing a Glorious helm. Is that because I’m awesome at PvP? No, I’m fairly middling at PvP so far as I can tell, but it wasn’t hard to earn a few pieces of Glorious armor over the months, and the Glorious helm looked slightly cooler than the Council Guard helm he had been wearing, and fit his “winged avenger” style quite well. Did the Council Guard helm indicate that I was a dungeon fiend? No, I ran CM like 5-10 times total, just enough to get him that helm and boots for my Ele. Haven’t been back since. He has Luminous gloves and boots, does that mean I don’t own the rest? No, I do own the rest, I just don’t like the design of them as well as the other bits he has on. Do I care that someone could look me over and guess at what I have and have not done? Not in the least. I do take some pride in the overall aesthetic of the ensemble, but not in any of the tasks I did to unlock the pieces themselves.

All you are proving is that Guild Wars 2 right now is too casual and doesn’t have enough rewards for actual real accomplishments.

Luckily, that seems to be changing with HoT, and I’m glad. Until that time, at least I have my dragon finisher and PvP titles.

Ohoni.6057:

Basically sometimes the game, and personal appearance as a factor of that, has to come before people showing off to people they falsely assume care what they’ve done.

Yeah no, I don’t agree with that.

And you might not care, but others do.

Ohoni.6057:

I mean how far do you want to take this “inclusive” approach Ohoni? Do you think the exclusive dungeon armors (that you can only get by grinding the specific dungeon that the armor belongs to) should no longer be exclusive?

They aren’t you can also get them via PvP reward tracks. But yes, I would also open them up to PvE reward tracks, and allow you to trade one type of dungeon token for another, at a lossy exchange rate.

What about the Order armors (Vigil, Whispers and Priory armors), should they no longer be exclusive to the specific Order they belong to?

Hmm. Interesting one. I’m less concerned about this one as you only need to get one character up to the level 50 story for each and you can trade all the pieces between characters after that, but sure, once you become Pact Commander I don’t see why you shouldn’t be able to buy from the other orders as well.

What about the Tequatl weapons that you can only get from Tequatl’s Hoard, a box that only drops from successfully killing Tequatl?

Or what about the Triple-Trouble Jungle Wurm armors?

Both should drop “Tequatl tokens” and “Great Wurm” tokens respectively, so that players of those events who never get the drop will be able to save up and buy the weapons/armor directly from an NPC. These tokens should also be available, in smaller numbers, from PvP and PvE reward tracks, and as some sort of daily event achievements related to Sparkfly and Bloodtide. These alternative methods should not be as efficient as running the two core events on a daily basis, and considerably less so if you’re lucky enough to get the drops directly, but they should provide an alternative, slower path for those that do not wish to do those events.

Obviously a piece of armor is much more than just a fancy decoration item. Sometimes a piece of armor represents something. Sometimes it sends a message. Sometimes it shows off that you have done a specific activity and sometimes it shows off you’re the best at something.

And as I’ve pointed out, there are ways of sending that message that don’t involve fancy clothing, and those methods should be used instead. In the real world, you can choose to send a message to someone by writing it on haute couture, and shipping it to them, but you can also send it on common stationary in an envelope, and this is typically the preferred method.

Your version of GW2 sounds incredibly boring. God am I glad you’re not a designer at Anet.

Ohoni.6057:

And that is the entire problem, you look at this ONLY from your perspective, and i get your perspective cause i have done the same. But i’m not looking at this for me, i would play the game with your system in place, no problem, and i would have fun and do many different things, but we are the exception to the rule, and i understand this, you don’t.

I don’t see any reason to believe that we are exceptional. So long as various types of gameplay exist, and people have cause to pursue them, I don’t believe there are players who wouldn’t. Players that quit do so for one of two reasons, either A. None of the activities in the game interest them significantly anymore, or B. The activities that they do enjoy are seen as too unrewarding relative to other activities, so they stick with the “rewarding” activities until they get sick of it. Balancing rewards solves the second one, but really nothing can solve the first aside from them continuing to add fun new gameplay.

More people would be upset about not having unique rewards then there would be about having them, it’s as simple as that.

I don’t believe that for a second. For some games? Maybe, but GW2 has not fostered that sort of culture, which is part of the reason that the addition of raiding is causing such a culture clash from people who expect it to be exactly like raiding in those other games, and those hoping that it won’t break what made GW2 better than those other games. and I’m sure that the players who do want unique rewards will be very vocal in their displeasure, as they were about not being satisfied with GW2’s dungeon systems for the first three years, but that doesn’t mean that they make up a majority, or that their continuing to play the game is of any real importance. Most of the hardcore raider type players left screaming after the first few months of the game, and the game’s gotten along just fine without them. The people who have been with the game for the past three years are mostly those who have nothing in common with those players.

Mate, now you are acting ignorant, GW2 has exactly fostered that culture, since launch, the only difference with other games is that none of the unique rewards were behind challenging content and they didn’t change stats. Nothing has changed in the Arenanet policy except they are adding a gametype.

And btw, saying “other games” with such a despise for them, clearly shows why you don’t understand most of the playerbase. You seem to be of the impression that people who like GW2 and people who like Wow and Swtor and Wildstar are entirely different groups of people, while allot of players just like mmo’s in general, seeking one that fits them best. GW2 wants as big a piece of that pie as possible, they have been wanting that since launch. I can guarantee you over 50% of the playerbase will have played another mmo prior to this one. Some even multiple ones. In fact most people i know in the game have taken a break from it somewhere in the last few years, playing other stuff instead.

Ohoni.6057:

I’m sure that the players who do want unique rewards will be very vocal in their displeasure, as they were about not being satisfied with GW2’s dungeon systems for the first three years, but that doesn’t mean that they make up a majority, or that their continuing to play the game is of any real importance.

This needs to be singled out, because you clearly don’t realise wich minority group 1 guy in particular is really vocal about not wanting these rewards, i’ve talked about this with my guild, all players since launch, and most played the original guildwars before that. I’ve not heard anyone saying they hate that raids have exclusive rewards. In fact the only people i’ve met that think this is a problem is a vocal minority on the forums.
You are the one being vocal, almost on your own here… You are the minority.

And btw, their continuing to play is not of any real importance to you, it is of real importance to Arenanet. You don’t care for these players, so you expect everyone to agree that they aren’t relevant, and quite simply, we don’t.

Ohoni.6057:

Yeah, it should be fairly close, they’re both players playing the game, you wouldn’t want one of the activities to present an unbalanced level of reward, and you wouldn’t want anyone raiding because they see it as a “shortcut” to the best rewards, even if they don’t enjoy it. It’s not like raiding is some “superior” type of content entitled to superior rewards.

But Raiding is in every function of an MMO superior, you socially need reliable teammates and you must have mechanical understanding of your profession and what your allies bring with them. It would be unbalanced if the progression towards it was equivalent to any other PvE sector in this game. By that extension it can’t be heralded as a shortcut, as the difficulty would be a considerable timesink for many, even raiders!

Ohoni.6057:

Well, that’s why at least some of the reward has to be paced along the way, so that even “failed” attempts will typically be as rewarding as playing other content for the same amount of time. You make the end rewards enough of a perk that people will want to hit that point as often as possible, but you also reward them along the way so that they don’t walk away empty handed.

Explain what that reward is, what is the reward for effort put into a raid versus other areas of this game.

Ohoni.6057:

That is completely insane. You’re basically saying “there can be other methods, so long as they are completely pointless to pursue.” You understand that if someone did kill the VW every singleday under such a system, it would take them a year and a half to complete that objective?

Sure if they could only be capable of doing it successfully once a day, dedicated VW players might be running coordinated maps multiple times a day, and those who really like the content will likely do it more than once a day if possible. The most persistent VW players who run it three times successfully a day will get it in a couple months, that’s not bad at all for that content!

Ohoni.6057:

Perhaps, but this starts to get very complicated. Would it have to be the same group each time? If so then every member of the group would need to be available at the same time each day, which may not fit their schedules. If you can switch groups for each portion, how is that tracked? The more convenient they can make it, the better, but it’s still fair to say that the raiding lifestyle will never be for everyone, and it’s unreasonable to assume that everyone will raid, or that those who don’t raid should have to do without.

Eh, the thought still matters, I was just postulating ‘what-ifs’. Any amount of work they can put into making raids work around people schedules won’t impact how difficult the raid is, but allow for easier access which is never a bad thing.

Ohoni.6057:

The hinted mastery requirements don’t seem like they will be a big deal to me. Just over the past two betas (with severely limited zone progression) I earned three levels in gliding and two in shrooms, I imagine between HoT’s launch and when the raids launch I would have a dozen or so different masteries unlocked, and I would expect those of the raider mindset to have far more unlocked, so unless they require the absolute highest end stuff, and I doubt the first raid will, at least, I don’t think it’ll really hold anyone back.

I am in agreement with this.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Ohoni.6057:

There are very very very few items in this world that can be acquired ONLY through specific merit, and yet also have an inherent function as an object.

Except that’s complete nonsense. Not sure if you ever watch Tour De France but in that sport the person who’s currently number 1 gets to wear a yellow/golden outfit. No one else gets to wear a yellow outfit except for the best.

Where do you live that you cannot simply buy a yellow t-shirt in a shop? Yes, if you want you could even buy an identical one

Fox.3469:

This needs to be singled out, because you clearly don’t realise wich minority group 1 guy in particular is really vocal about not wanting these rewards, i’ve talked about this with my guild, all players since launch, and most played the original guildwars before that. I’ve not heard anyone saying they hate that raids have exclusive rewards.

Sure. It’s not surprising that you tend to group with people that have similar opinions, and tend to avoid those whose playing style is too different from yours. In LotRO raiders also seemed to think that they are the community, because everywhere they were active, they outmanned anyone else. And then they were presented with actual numbers.

Fox.3469:

You don’t care for these players, so you expect everyone to agree that they aren’t relevant, and quite simply, we don’t.

And you seem to think that those that do not agree with you are irrelevant. Funny thing, how this works.

Sykper.6583:

Ohoni.6057:

Yeah, it should be fairly close, they’re both players playing the game, you wouldn’t want one of the activities to present an unbalanced level of reward, and you wouldn’t want anyone raiding because they see it as a “shortcut” to the best rewards, even if they don’t enjoy it. It’s not like raiding is some “superior” type of content entitled to superior rewards.

But Raiding is in every function of an MMO superior

No. The primary functions of MMOs are social and entertainment ones. In the case of the latter, it is doubtful that raiding increases fun for more people than it takes away (especially in GW2). As for former, Raiding fosters social exclusivity and separation, and as such it is in fact inferior to other forms of content.

Sykper.6583:

By that extension it can’t be heralded as a shortcut, as the difficulty would be a considerable timesink for many, even raiders!

If taking Raid route to reach a goal would take considerably shorter time for experienced raiders than other options, then it would be a shortcut.

Sykper.6583:

Explain what that reward is, what is the reward for effort put into a raid versus other areas of this game.

Ohoni is rather obviously talking about material rewards – so, drops. As i understand it, he means that if raids drop some big rewards at the end, then it should also be buyable by tokens, which could also be received (albeit in lesser quantity) from the partial checkpoints within the Raid. Or something to a similar effect.

Sykper.6583:

Sure if they could only be capable of doing it successfully once a day, dedicated VW players might be running coordinated maps multiple times a day, and those who really like the content will likely do it more than once a day if possible. The most persistent VW players who run it three times successfully a day will get it in a couple months, that’s not bad at all for that content!

Ah, i see it. So you think that running a raid a few times should be equal to dedicating all of your time daily for several months in a row.
No, i don’t think this is an equivalent effort at all.

Fox.3469:

And btw, saying “other games” with such a despise for them, clearly shows why you don’t understand most of the playerbase. You seem to be of the impression that people who like GW2 and people who like Wow and Swtor and Wildstar are entirely different groups of people, while allot of players just like mmo’s in general, seeking one that fits them best. GW2 wants as big a piece of that pie as possible, they have been wanting that since launch. I can guarantee you over 50% of the playerbase will have played another mmo prior to this one. Some even multiple ones. In fact most people i know in the game have taken a break from it somewhere in the last few years, playing other stuff instead.

Felt this needed to be called out: I used to play other MMO’s. I found the culture that rewarded raiding more than any other activity to be toxic. Any attempts to change that other game were doomed to failure, because it WAS an ingrained part of the game. Here’s it’s being added after 3 years. There are some of us who bought the game BECAUSE the whole concept we were sold didn’t include “Raid or GTFO.”

If you want to see what raids bring to the community, look at this thread. Toxic comments, personal insults, declarations that anyone who wants to voice their desires as a consumer and as a player is an “entitled, spoiled little chld.” BTW: name-calling isn’t generally how adults operate, but whatever.

Fox.3469:

This needs to be singled out, because you clearly don’t realise wich minority group 1 guy in particular is really vocal about not wanting these rewards, i’ve talked about this with my guild, all players since launch, and most played the original guildwars before that. I’ve not heard anyone saying they hate that raids have exclusive rewards. In fact the only people i’ve met that think this is a problem is a vocal minority on the forums.
You are the one being vocal, almost on your own here… You are the minority.

I can’t keep up with the thread all the time, and quite honestly, Ohoni seems to be doing well enough defending his position that people are reduced to attacking him instead of his position. I agree with most of what he’s said, and would add that even before the raids are live, they’ve had the effect of polarizing and dividing the community in a way that only the introduction of Ascended armor did. Ascended armor was a big deal because it felt like it was a reversal of what the GW2 team promised, and so does this. Remember, some people are STILL not happy with Ascended gear years later.

Fox.3469:

And btw, their continuing to play is not of any real importance to you, it is of real importance to Arenanet. You don’t care for these players, so you expect everyone to agree that they aren’t relevant, and quite simply, we don’t.

He said that the people who were serious about wanting to raid generally left after a few months. This was true. What I’m personally worried about is that GW2 was never meant to be the same type of game as those ones where raiding was THE end-game, full-stop. Adding raids is fine with me. Making the raiding rewards good is fine with me. Making the raiding rewards the ONLY way you can get things is not fine with me. I mentioned before that this disenfranchises customers who bought this game BECAUSE it wasn’t a “get to max level, then raid” type of game. I can really only speak for myself here, but I preordered GW2 more than 3 years ago, and have supported it since, partially based on the fact that it is NOT that game. And not only am I angry about the exclusive rewards, I’ve been quite happy to tell anyone who cares that the game looks to be losing its identity to become a second-rate clone. GW2 is a great game, but not when it tries to be something it isn’t, and never has been.

Lakanna.2073:

I can’t keep up with the thread all the time, and quite honestly, Ohoni seems to be doing well enough defending his position that people are reduced to attacking him instead of his position.

Sorry but no, neither you nor Ohoni are doing good job at defending your position or bringing any valid arguments to the table.

Basically, all the anti-exclusive rewards burn down to: “I want to get all the shinies in the game by simply doing what I like doing. All the players who play content that I don’t like doing should not in any way ever get exclusive shinies.”

Sorry, but that just makes you sound like an entitled spoiled child. That’s not a personal attack, that’s not even an insult, it’s just how your arguments sound to me.

Edit: I’d have at least a bit of sympathy for your position if raids would give a new exclusive higher tier of armor, but it doesn’t. Legendary armor will in no way be better than ascended armor, which you can already get and likely already have. So really all we’re talking about is exclusive skins that raiders will be able to get and non-raiders won’t. If that’s not something you can live with, then that’s your problem.

And “you have to do what I did to EARN your right to this weapon skin” makes you sound like a smug elitist. Not that you’ve said that, but others have. I see the game as a game: meant to be entertaining and fun. I HAVE a full-time job where I do things that I sometimes don’t enjoy to earn the things I want. It’s called “work” and not “play” for that very reason. I log into a game to enjoy some downtime, NOT to just spend yet more time doing things I don’t think are fun to get something I want.
Challenging content can be fun, don’t get me wrong. But when you have to do the content for the reward and not because it’s what you want to be doing, then it’s a flaw in the content or a flaw in the reward system. And as I mentioned before, just because its traditional to lock good rewards behind raids, doesn’t mean that it will work for GW2, which has been almost aggressive about giving players options, alternatives, and choices about how they want to play the game.

Edit: It isn’t “they shouldn’t get exclusive things.” It’s “nobody should get exclusive skins.” Titles, sure. And I’m not pushing for exclusive skins for my way of playing and for nobody else: that would, to me, be stupid, selfish, and unnecessary. It creates conflict within the community for no real benefit to the game. But that’s part of what I’ve said before too.

Lakanna.2073:

Felt this needed to be called out: I used to play other MMO’s. I found the culture that rewarded raiding more than any other activity to be toxic. Any attempts to change that other game were doomed to failure, because it WAS an ingrained part of the game. Here’s it’s being added after 3 years. There are some of us who bought the game BECAUSE the whole concept we were sold didn’t include “Raid or GTFO.”

BECAUSE it wasn’t a “get to max level, then raid” type of game. I can really only speak for myself here, but I preordered GW2 more than 3 years ago, and have supported it since, partially based on the fact that it is NOT that game. And not only am I angry about the exclusive rewards, I’ve been quite happy to tell anyone who cares that the game looks to be losing its identity to become a second-rate clone. GW2 is a great game, but not when it tries to be something it isn’t, and never has been.

You were not sold this game under the premise that there would never be raids, that was NEVER a sale point made by A-net. It happened not to have raids and now it’s getting them.
The selling points for the game were:
-No level cap raises with expansions
-No additional statistical gear tiers with expansions
-Living world where content and their rewards are time limited.
-Cosmetic PROGRESSION in place of statistical (<- the very thing you are arguing against.)

I’m not sure about you but what they’re adding is in line with their development plan. I can only speak for myself and not the other pro-unique rewards people, but the reason I’m playing this game is because level cap raises and additional gear tiers were annoying things that devalued my time. That and the idea of a living world of be there or miss out appealed to me as an interesting experiment. Other than that I like the standard MMO experience with all its rarity,prestige, do set tasks for set rewards form.

As to the progression statement I took that to mean anywhere that would traditionally give you unique or better statistical items, now gives unique skins only instead, which is pretty much what they have done.

Lakanna.2073:

If you want to see what raids bring to the community, look at this thread. Toxic comments, personal insults, declarations that anyone who wants to voice their desires as a consumer and as a player is an “entitled, spoiled little chld.” BTW: name-calling isn’t generally how adults operate, but whatever.

I can’t keep up with the thread all the time, and quite honestly, Ohoni seems to be doing well enough defending his position that people are reduced to attacking him instead of his position.
BECAUSE it wasn’t a “get to max level, then raid” type of game. I can really only speak for myself here, but I preordered GW2 more than 3 years ago, and have supported it since, partially based on the fact that it is NOT that game. And not only am I angry about the exclusive rewards, I’ve been quite happy to tell anyone who cares that the game looks to be losing its identity to become a second-rate clone. GW2 is a great game, but not when it tries to be something it isn’t, and never has been.

I have been insulted, told I’m a monster/horrible person , told to see a psychiatrist, told my play is unhealthy, and told I should be disregarded etc. There are people on both sides who are “toxic”, there are people in every area of the game who are toxic, you can’t pin that on raiders.

For the who knows how many’eth time, GW2 will never become a clone because its core structure is too different, Heck technically they could implement every game feature present in WoW and it still wouldn’t be because it uses active combat instead of passive, and doesn’t have gear/level tiers

As to Ohoni he is choosing to disregard the core belief of the other side as an argument just because he doesn’t believe it. “Skins are trophies and badges to convey your accomplishments”.

Astralporing.1957:

Where do you live that you cannot simply buy a yellow t-shirt in a shop? Yes, if you want you could even buy an identical one

You know full well they mean in context, If you tried wearing that shirt in the race you’d be disqualified maybe even pulled off the bike and beaten by the crowd and the racers for not having earned it. The amount of fuss created would be massive.

Hey you can get the luminescent skins, you just have to go to second life the MMO and make them yourself, of course you can only use them in second life but that’s fine right? That’s the same context as your example, you can use them in the place where their trophy value isn’t present. And their trophy value is present as long as you’re in Guildwars 2.

Lakanna.2073:

And “you have to do what I did to EARN your right to this weapon skin” makes you sound like a smug elitist. Not that you’ve said that, but others have. I see the game as a game: meant to be entertaining and fun. I HAVE a full-time job where I do things that I sometimes don’t enjoy to earn the things I want. It’s called “work” and not “play” for that very reason. I log into a game to enjoy some downtime, NOT to just spend yet more time doing things I don’t think are fun to get something I want.
Challenging content can be fun, don’t get me wrong. But when you have to do the content for the reward and not because it’s what you want to be doing, then it’s a flaw in the content or a flaw in the reward system. And as I mentioned before, just because its traditional to lock good rewards behind raids, doesn’t mean that it will work for GW2, which has been almost aggressive about giving players options, alternatives, and choices about how they want to play the game.

Edit: It isn’t “they shouldn’t get exclusive things.” It’s “nobody should get exclusive skins.” Titles, sure. And I’m not pushing for exclusive skins for my way of playing and for nobody else: that would, to me, be stupid, selfish, and unnecessary. It creates conflict within the community for no real benefit to the game. But that’s part of what I’ve said before too.

But why are you playing an MMO then, it’s common knowledge that EVERY themepark style MMO and most sandbox MMO’s have prestige,rarity and unique items. Why are you with this knowledge coming to play them just to complain about the aspects of them that make them what they are? It doesn’t matter if you like them or not you’ve intentionally placed yourself in an environment where they exist and are standard.

Ohoni.6057:

3. Any design element that causes people to have less fun than they otherwise might, is a failure of the game.

This is not necessarily true. “Fun” means many different things to many different people. That open world PvE is quite easy, for example, is fun for some and boring for others. That doesn’t mean that easy PvE is a failure while difficult PvE is a success. It means that you are going to have to decide on an audience for your game. And a large audience isn’t more or less valid than a small audience because if all anyone did was try to please the largest group we would never have anything different.

If you were meaning that a game shouldn’t contain elements that needlessly contradict its core principles, yeah, sure, but what you actually wrote is deeply flawed and not a useful way to understand game design.

Ohoni.6057:

So sure, unique rewards attached to content, if and ONLY if those rewards are for trying the content, and can be earned by any player within an hour or two of attempting the content. Any reward that does take long term and serious effort, and there should be such rewards, should not be unique to specific content, and should allow players to pursue the content that interests them personally.

Once again, thank godness you are not in charge of making decisions for this game

You need to realize YOU are in the minority.

NO ONE is complaining as vocally as you are about this because it’s not a big deal to most ppl

You need to honestly grow up and realize that your opinion on rewards is shared by very few and will never be installed in GW2.

With your post, you are perfectly OK with handing out participation trophies. Sure, lets make every reward meaningless because Ohoni doesn’t like it when someone receives a better skin because they worked harder than him.

I repeat, thank god you have no influence on anet’s reward philosophy. I’m very happy that your idea’s will never be implemented.

The other element where the ‘medal’ parallel breaks down is the get something for being the best.

Raids are not competitive, at least so far as rewards. They have little skill-reward element to them, as compared to a practice/grind – reward thing.

We get into some dark old times if we think of these rewards as a ‘mark of the elite’, when they’re (like the glorious armor set) a ‘mark of being willing to play a game mode’.

So what? Are you saying rewards and status symbols should never be aesthetically pleasing or function as decoration? That’s ridiculous.

I’m saying that aesthetically pleasing items should never exist ONLY as status symbols. If people want the item for the aesthetic alone, they should be able to get it without having to meet the measure of what would earn them “status.”

Except that’s complete nonsense. Not sure if you ever watch Tour De France but in that sport the person who’s currently number 1 gets to wear a yellow/golden outfit. No one else gets to wear a yellow outfit except for the best. That yellow outfit basically serves exactly the same purpose as an exclusive armor in GW2 for being the best at something.

Oho?

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=tour+de+france+yellow+jersey&safe=off&tbm=shop

He can have equally much fun by doing whatever he likes or is good at, and get his own exclusive rewards for that specific game mode, rewards that I’ll probably not have nor ever get.

Exclusive rewards is not unfair, no matter how hard you try to make it seem that way.

Except that the value of all rewards is entirely subjective, and if the value he places on the rewards available through his favorite activities is very low, while the value he places on items rewarded through activities that he does want to do are very high, then he would still justifiably be unhappy with the result. Why should he not have access to the rewards he does want through the content he wants?

And btw, saying “other games” with such a despise for them, clearly shows why you don’t understand most of the playerbase. You seem to be of the impression that people who like GW2 and people who like Wow and Swtor and Wildstar are entirely different groups of people, while allot of players just like mmo’s in general, seeking one that fits them best. GW2 wants as big a piece of that pie as possible, they have been wanting that since launch. I can guarantee you over 50% of the playerbase will have played another mmo prior to this one. Some even multiple ones. In fact most people i know in the game have taken a break from it somewhere in the last few years, playing other stuff instead.

I’ve played dozens of MMOs before this one,m but found them largely unsatisfying and didn’t stick with any of them even half as long as I have GW2. I imagine the same is true for a lot of GW2 players. I believe that GW2’s success is in people who like the concept of MMOs, but who were driven away from other MMOs by features that GW2 deliberately avoided, like paid subscriptions or raiding culture. GW2 succeeded by not being a WoW clone. If people are happy with how other MMOs do things, they are too busy playing those games to be playing GW2.

But Raiding is in every function of an MMO superior, you socially need reliable teammates and you must have mechanical understanding of your profession and what your allies bring with them.

It’s sad that you believe this, but it’s obviously not true. Raiding is just one way to play, it’s not better or worse in any way than any other way of playing the game, even Silver Waste farming. If you enjoy it, then that’s great, but if someone else doesn’t enjoy it, that does not make them a lesser player than you, or deserving of lesser rewards.

Explain what that reward is, what is the reward for effort put into a raid versus other areas of this game.

I couldn’t say what the actual rewards would be, but by “rewards even if you fail,” I mean that if we have a raid where say there are five steps between start and finish, and each step takes maybe ten minutes if you have it down, fifteen if you don’t, and each ramps in difficulty, then perhaps only the last step would reward the “special” reward, progress towards Legendary Armor or whatever, but each of those sub-objectives should have their own reward, piles of gold and junk gear like one might encounter elsewhere in the game, and the quantity of that loot would be equivalent to around 15-20 minutes of “farming” other content. So basically, even if it takes you 45 minutes to reach the third tier, and you fail out, you’ve still made as much generic loot as someone doing any other content in the game would have, you are not “behind.” by any significant amount.

If the other content does offer progress towards the “best stuff” like Legendary Armor, then these checkpoints would also offer partial progress.

Sure if they could only be capable of doing it successfully once a day, dedicated VW players might be running coordinated maps multiple times a day, and those who really like the content will likely do it more than once a day if possible. The most persistent VW players who run it three times successfully a day will get it in a couple months, that’s not bad at all for that content!

And persistent raiders could run the raid several times a day, whatever. No, hundreds of VW runs is still entirely ridiculous. You just want to punish people who want an alternate route, by presenting one with unreasonable conditions on it.

With your post, you are perfectly OK with handing out participation trophies. Sure, lets make every reward meaningless because Ohoni doesn’t like it when someone receives a better skin because they worked harder than him.

I also said that participation trophies should not be the only reward. I specifically broke it down into two categories. There should be unique rewards for each type of content that are “participation trophies,” because the purpose they play is to encourage people to try new content, and “participation trophies” are the best way of accomplishing that without excluding anyone. Anyone can give up a little time here or there just to give something a try, even if they don’t have the time or skill to invest in that activity full time.

But that doesn’t mean that there should not be long term goal, and rewards that take consistent efforts to earn, it just means that these rewards should be placed behind the widest possible variety of activities, so that when you devote many hours of your time towards earning them, it is in activities that you enjoy doing. This again rewards you for your effort, but does so without excluding people that are incapable or unwilling to engage in certain specific types of content.

It’s not about “working harder,” I’m willing to work as hard as anyone, but since this is a game and not a job, I want that work to be in something I find fun, just as I would hope that when you work towards a goal, you are having fun too. If you don’t have fun raiding, then don’t raid, nobody should be forcing you to.

Windsagio.1340:

The other element where the ‘medal’ parallel breaks down is the get something for being the best.

Raids are not competitive, at least so far as rewards. They have little skill-reward element to them, as compared to a practice/grind – reward thing.

We get into some dark old times if we think of these rewards as a ‘mark of the elite’, when they’re (like the glorious armor set) a ‘mark of being willing to play a game mode’.

Wait what? Raids will hopefully be a high difficulty (organization aside) , why do you think they won’t involve mechanical and reactionary skill? Yes they’ll probobly have more mechanics that are do and die, but in addition to those you can bet there will be a ton of circle spam, probobly some distance and timing mechanics added on top of it.

I’ve been playing some of the SWTOR raids and the level appropriate ones still lead to wipes if someone makes a mistake or the groups damage is poor or if a mechanic is not handled properly. Some of the older ones on hard/nightmare modes can still cause a group wipe.

Anyway point being proper skills will likely be required in addition to understanding and practice.

On the trophies thing it’s scaled up for MMO’s instead of THE top person it’s say the top 1% , Or if you really need the entire example to be perfect, perhaps merit badges work better. You only get it for completing a specific task or set of tasks or to a certain degree of skill.
I’d also argue that it’s indirect competition , The barrier to successfully completing the raid is the competition, are you good enough to do it. if it’s tuned to say 5% and not bugged to hell, you can then say reasonably that you’re in the top 5% of PvE players.

Lastly for your example the Glorious armor set is not a high prestige set, but it is an exclusive to PvP set, The two have different meanings the Glorious Hero’s Armor is the prestige set that does indicate high skill. (Exactly like the Carapace, Luminescent sets but with less cheaters).

No, I do not think they’ll include significant execution skill as compared to the higher end existing content.

Anet is not accustomed to setting themselves up for failure, and if they made the raids execution-wise even as hard as a 50 fractal (which isn’t really that execution intensive), they’d be working themselves into a corner where an even tinier microfaction of the player base would be able to do them.

They’ve made it clear they want these to be a big part of the gameplay going forward, and one of the things that means (PR rhetoric aside) is that they’re simply not going to be that kitten a execution level. They certainly won’t be harder (or as hard) as the hardest extant single-group content, because so few would be able to get working 10mans for that content.

And again, they want this feature to succeed.

~~~

So, they have to sell the ‘hard new content’ while at the same time making it so that there’s not the specific skill limitaiton to keep too many players out.

Adding the organizational and timing barriers is a good way to get faux-exclusivity that will fade over time (as the encounters become very well known it’ll be easier to pug out the organizational aspect).

Ohoni.6057:

I also said that participation trophies should not be the only reward. I specifically broke it down into two categories. There should be unique rewards for each type of content that are “participation trophies,” because the purpose they play is to encourage people to try new content, and “participation trophies” are the best way of accomplishing that without excluding anyone. Anyone can give up a little time here or there just to give something a try, even if they don’t have the time or skill to invest in that activity full time.

But that doesn’t mean that there should not be long term goal, and rewards that take consistent efforts to earn, it just means that these rewards should be placed behind the widest possible variety of activities, so that when you devote many hours of your time towards earning them, it is in activities that you enjoy doing. This again rewards you for your effort, but does so without excluding people that are incapable or unwilling to engage in certain specific types of content.

It’s not about “working harder,” I’m willing to work as hard as anyone, but since this is a game and not a job, I want that work to be in something I find fun, just as I would hope that when you work towards a goal, you are having fun too. If you don’t have fun raiding, then don’t raid, nobody should be forcing you to.

Your logic is still completely selfish.
YOU don’t get to pick and choose how rewards are distributed. If you don’t like it, that’s your problem. Anet believes its perfectly fine and so do many others.

Once again you still believe that (hypothetical scenario) you, as a soccer player, deserve to receive a basketball trophy through soccer or any other sport you find fun. You don’t find basketball fun but you like the way the basketball trophy looks and want a piece of it, but you are unwilling to play basketball for it.

That is how you want gw2’s reward system. That’s not happening. That is completely selfish logic. You don’t deserve that basketball trophy, no matter how hard you worked in soccer. You have to play basketball if you want that particular trophy. You are asking anet to make all the exclusive stuff and long term goals accessible through soccer (or whatever sport you find fun ONLY).

THAT IS IS THE DEFINITION OF SELFISH

Once again, thank god your way is not being implemented.
With your logic, everyone would pick the most optimal route to whatever longterm goal they want.

What would be more optimal if your longterm goal was lets say, the PvP legend backpeice? Slowly progressing in PvP league ranks to achieve that Legend backpeice or getting it from killing X amount of players/lords in WvW or completing X amount of dynamic events in PvE?

NO ONE would bother doing PvP if you gave the longterm goal/reward away in other areas of the game. Why can’t you understand this?

I’d also argue that it’s indirect competition , The barrier to successfully completing the raid is the competition, are you good enough to do it. if it’s tuned to say 5% and not bugged to hell, you can then say reasonably that you’re in the top 5% of PvE players.

It’s not competition against other players though, it’s competition against the developers, how they balanced the content. The other players are just doing their best, like you, and nothing they achieve (outside of your group, at least) can make you more or less likely to succeed.

Your logic is still completely selfish.
YOU don’t get to pick and choose how rewards are distributed. If you don’t like it, that’s your problem. Anet believes its perfectly fine and so do many others.

This is silly “reasoning.” I am a customer, I can push for systems that I want, just as you can push for systems you want. ANet has to decide which systems work for the majority of their customers. Is it “selfish” of me to want the system I want? To an extent, but no more selfish than for you to want the system you want. If we’re looking at it objectively, the system I’m pushing for would allow more people to have the things they want, where as the system you’re pushing for would insist that less people get what they want, so even in a case where half the people agreed with me and half the people agreed with you, yours would be the more selfish position.

What it ultimately comes down to is how many people each side has (in the game, not on the forums). If half or more of the players would agree that these items should be less exclusive, then that’s what they should do. If half or more people think that these items should be exclusive to raids, then that’s what they should do, even if that’s not what I’d personally want. It’s ANet’s job to figure out which is which. Maybe they could compare daily populations between high end Fractals and Silverwaste farming to decide which population is bigger.

Once again you still believe that (hypothetical scenario) you, as a soccer player, deserve to receive a basketball trophy through soccer or any other sport you find fun.

And once again, you raise a straw man argument to occlude the failings of your position. Again, I’m not saying that I deserve to win a basketball trophy for playing soccer, but if I like the way a basketball jersey looks on me, well. . . http://store.nba.com/Jerseys

Ohoni.6057:

Once again you still believe that (hypothetical scenario) you, as a soccer player, deserve to receive a basketball trophy through soccer or any other sport you find fun.

And once again, you raise a straw man argument to occlude the failings of your position. Again, I’m not saying that I deserve to win a basketball trophy for playing soccer, but if I like the way a basketball jersey looks on me, well. . . http://store.nba.com/Jerseys

YES you are saying you want that basketball trophy.

That basketball trophy is the LONGTERM GOAL. Not a jersey.

YOU specifically said you want the longterm goal to be available in widespread areas.
Correct me i’m wrong there.

You aren’t after the jersey my friend, that much I know, so don’t lie….this is not a straw man argument (which is your go to response to literally every rebuttal)….

You want that trophy since that is the longterm goal/exclusive item in this scenario. Anyone can go buy a jersey obviously. You don’t go off and buy an official NBA finals trophy.. you have to actually play and beat that particular content if you want to achieve that long term goal.

So you obviously can´t win the original Basketball trophy by playing soccer. Granted, taken as fact, at least by me.

You also can obviously buy a Basketball trophy which is made exactly of the same materials as the original one if you put enough money on the table. You can´t buy the original one if you´re not the owner of the wininng team and sometimes not even then, it´s one of a kind.

But the type of trophy is for sale so that you can carry it around and pretend that you are a basketball champion. The NBA for example would be stupid if they made their merchandise only for actual Basketball players and not the couch basketballers that could not differentiate between a basketball and a football if they were hit bei either straight in the face.

So what does this mean?
Anet would be ill advised to keep the rewards exclusive to raids for too long, and they already showed that they are willing to divide loot this way with PvP and the lumi armor. Exclusivity sells, but it is just sustainable and not very grwoth inducing in the long run. It´s the companies that sell large quantities of cheap stuff or electronical garbage like Apple, Walmart or H&M that are making the bigger money. There are only limited quantities of people that can afford exclusive stuff, and even less people that can win exclusive stuff, and as soon as the first guilds managed to cut their teeth in the raid, exclusivity will sink and availability will rise in time.

tl:dr The NBA trophy itself is one of a kind and impossible to own except for winning it by playing basketball. A copy of the NBA trophy is always available in your local sports store and sells like hot cake if your team win the original.
Although not everybody can win a hall of fame ring by playing basketball, you can buy one from a broke legend player, taking nothing from it´s value but maybe something of it´s fame.

Edit: A basketball player is probably not mad that people buy his jerseys, shoes, a copy of the trophy or his autograph, so the cry for keeping rewards exclusive for all times is unfounded.
I am pretty sure that guys like Michael Jordan, John Madden, Oliver Khan, Lionell Messi or Usain Bolt could not care less if you own a copy of their world trophy from 1999, a piece of the WM grass from 1990 or something like that.

Still comparing to successful competitors. Is this whole thing about validation and self-image?

Make it challenging, please. Or atleast the option to be challenging. And by that I mean mechanics that can be very unforgiving, no more second and third chances that down state allows, no more casual AFK auto attacking dragons give us dynamic fight mechanics that involve more than staying out of red circles and afk spamming auto attacks.

I hate to reference this for I might get shunned but Black Temple raids in Burning Crusade (World of Warcraft) were some of the most difficult, dynamic and straight up fun raids I have EVER been apart of in any MMO.

We died 1000000 times, but when we finally nailed it. There wasn’t a feeling better in the world.

Astralporing.1957:

No. The primary functions of MMOs are social and entertainment ones. In the case of the latter, it is doubtful that raiding increases fun for more people than it takes away (especially in GW2). As for former, Raiding fosters social exclusivity and separation, and as such it is in fact inferior to other forms of content.

I like how you use ‘doubtful’ as an absolute here. It’s also wrong to assume GW2 Raiding will play out the same ‘social exclusivity’ that other MMOs with raiding have done…in whatever sense you think there is. I can care less for your personal bias against raids, but don’t play it out that GW2 Raiding will split the community, this community of all things.

Astralporing.1957:

If taking Raid route to reach a goal would take considerably shorter time for experienced raiders than other options, then it would be a shortcut.

…Which would be the case if any of the raiders (which GW2 has none as of yet, we are all going into this green as grass) had prior experience with GW2 Raids, which don’t exist. I am going to assume therefore that the GW2 raid coming up will take a lot of time, and a LOT MORE EFFORT than any PvE content in this game yet, even more so than Tequatl and Triple Wurm (hopefully).

Astralporing.1957:

Ohoni is rather obviously talking about material rewards – so, drops. As i understand it, he means that if raids drop some big rewards at the end, then it should also be buyable by tokens, which could also be received (albeit in lesser quantity) from the partial checkpoints within the Raid. Or something to a similar effect.

Sure…well except for the potential impact on the economy, exceptional rewards for exceptional effort in raiding could cause an staggering inflation.

Astralporing.1957:

Ah, i see it. So you think that running a raid a few times should be equal to dedicating all of your time daily for several months in a row.
No, i don’t think this is an equivalent effort at all.

Certainly! Especially when the full Raid rewards are on a weekly lockout! It evens out perfectly in line with what Ononi suggests for proportional rewards!

Ohoni.6057:

It’s sad that you believe this, but it’s obviously not true. Raiding is just one way to play, it’s not better or worse in any way than any other way of playing the game, even Silver Waste farming. If you enjoy it, then that’s great, but if someone else doesn’t enjoy it, that does not make them a lesser player than you, or deserving of lesser rewards.

No need for the patronizing ‘fact’ you seem to believe in.

It may be in your opinion that Raiding is ‘just one way to play’ and that’s fine, people are free to do whatever they please in this game. However the amount of effort a player puts into being a successful raider versus a successful farmer is Heaven and Earth here. That doesn’t mean the player farming is a lesser player, the activity in question is of a significantly easier design, which means the rewards for your efforts and invested time must follow proportionally!

Ohoni.6057:

I couldn’t say what the actual rewards would be, but by “rewards even if you fail,” I mean that if we have a raid where say there are five steps between start and finish, and each step takes maybe ten minutes if you have it down, fifteen if you don’t, and each ramps in difficulty, then perhaps only the last step would reward the “special” reward, progress towards Legendary Armor or whatever, but each of those sub-objectives should have their own reward, piles of gold and junk gear like one might encounter elsewhere in the game, and the quantity of that loot would be equivalent to around 15-20 minutes of “farming” other content. So basically, even if it takes you 45 minutes to reach the third tier, and you fail out, you’ve still made as much generic loot as someone doing any other content in the game would have, you are not “behind.” by any significant amount.

If the other content does offer progress towards the “best stuff” like Legendary Armor, then these checkpoints would also offer partial progress.

Raiders are not masochists, Raiders want greater rewards for greater risk. Making the system dis-proportionally reward non-raiders at the same level as raiders for doing mundane tasks, doesn’t create a stable Raid Environment, Raid Content would be a waste of resources and time. The raid content would die out after every raider does it once, or even does one encounter maybe, because GW2 is all about the Horizontal Progression.

Ohoni.6057:

And persistent raiders could run the raid several times a day, whatever. No, hundreds of VW runs is still entirely ridiculous. You just want to punish people who want an alternate route, by presenting one with unreasonable conditions on it.

Again, weekly rewards. Anyways it is not punishment when you yourself said that rewards should be available to all content, and rewards can be provided they are appropriately scaled to the effort it takes to do the content! How is that unreasonable? Someone who really likes Vinewrath would still be able to do Vinewrath and get what they want!

You can’t even be fair, even with your own system and you know why? Because you nor I have a clue on the metrics of the populace and what people REALLY want. People are afraid that Raids will tear the community apart, I doubt that by the severe interest from not just PvE guilds but PvX guilds, and ambient players who wouldn’t mind something new! People can hate exclusive rewards, but exclusive rewards have been around since launch. Did you raise a fuss about Liandri’s Mini and Title? Not nearly as much as you have been for the past month about Legendary Armor.

It’s cringe-worthy, how NOW people are up in arms about an exclusive piece tied to a certain kind of content. Three years and counting we have had releases of content and rewards tied specifically to that content, yet now some of us are relenting, why?

It certainly ISN’T because it is unfair, because further down the line Arenanet releases something new that looks better in one person’s senses than what they wanted before. It’s also because there are a vast myriad of skins one could earn in this game, that a single set of armor won’t completely make you give up on this game.

The main crux of everything comes down to something brought up before:

Is a skin’s value based on its looks, or how one earns it?

…It’s both. This is a real fact not based on conjecture but based upon actual evidence! Look at both sides in this thread, both sides have different values on what skins they would wear in game, and that is measured on how much they value the look of the skin or the prestige of gaining the skin in game. If that isn’t enough, go in game, ask how people value a Legendary Weapon. Many will say something about hating that Legendary Weapon’s look, some would dismiss Legendary Weapons as a non-prestige item, others might hate how much it costs, you catch my drift. You get so many different answers, but what you can infer is that there is no small amount of players from both sides. And that was a significant amount to warrant Chris from Arenanet to make CDIs, some specific in their nature to find out any issues with the game.

What was the consensus? Raiding, raiding was a topic for many vocal players much like ourselves in this very thread to speak about. They talked, a lot. So many people and guilds joined into the conversation, throwing ideas back and forth on how to create a successful PvE end-game for GW2 which would fulfill a certain void the current game has. And of those incentives for raiding, unique skins were probably the most vocal as well as challenging content, guilds of all sizes and interests wanted this.

So now we are here, talking about a single set of skins that comes from a single fresh new unreleased content never seen in a GW2 setting and people are throwing their arms in the air wondering why this content in particular gets something special, which we can’t even affirm the quality of the reward will remain special in the future.

…It’s more disappointing than insulting really. GW2 was perhaps one of the first large-scale games to carry the concept of Horizontal Progression rather than Vertical Progression. The idea was that rather than stats, the skins themselves would carry value instead, that is what it means. When you start universalizing skins, attainable anywhere with the same amount of time, you kill Horizontal progression because the players won’t take any other more difficult routes more than once before sticking to something really easy to do. That’s why it would be unsustainable, a MMO would die off quickly, unable to retain many players who seek a carrot on the stick for content they enjoy, but not when there is an easier route to success. That’s not just the nature of how Horizontal Progression works, its our nature to find the most efficient and easier route.

So then it becomes “Well then if I have to do something I can’t enjoy, it turns into Work, and I came to have fun!” Well I have bad news for you, despite how successful GW2 has been in really trying to cater to many different types of players, MMOs…aren’t just mindless fun, this isn’t Mario Party here. It’s a social game with a lot of time spent likely doing something in a repetitive fashion to gain a certain reward. What makes an MMO fun can be how many varied activities you can do to pass the time, could be the people, could be the challenge (something GW2 lacks right now for a lot of people), could be anything! But some rewards, in a game where skins are the value and not their stats, need to be behind certain content to create longevity, reduce staleness, and foster a healthy MMO.

Ohoni, I am sorry but although there are some points you and I can agree on (tokens versus RNG-jalkfjsdalkj sorry, I hate it so much lol) I don’t see any MMO ever considering a universal means to everything, not just because developer resources into new content would have to measure against the easiest content to spend time on, but because the vast majority of players would get bored of having to do the most efficient content, and see no reason to bang their heads against content they might enjoy but not gain the same rewards as they would doing the fast way. There would need to be a proportional reward not just based on time, but effort of content, and although I extended a hand with such an idea you outright rejected it.

I don’t think we can ever see eye to eye on rewards in MMOs, I am going to go with what Arenanet comes up with since they actually have the metrics and input from the very community all of us keep bringing up time and time again.

which is where Ohoni and I break;

Unique skins is fine, great even.

Adding implied value though the item quality system is problematic.

YES you are saying you want that basketball trophy.

That basketball trophy is the LONGTERM GOAL. Not a jersey.

No, I’m saying I don’t want the trophy at all. I couldn’t care less about any trophies. I do want the jersey though, so if you tell me that the trophy can only be purchased along with the trophy, then I say “kitten that, given me the jersey, you can keep your kitten trophy.”

Still comparing to successful competitors. Is this whole thing about validation and self-image?

Pretty much, apparently. “I’m as good as Usain bolt, only in a video game, give me a trophy!”

Sure…well except for the potential impact on the economy, exceptional rewards for exceptional effort in raiding could cause an staggering inflation.

Not really. The rewards should not be so exceptional that they would distort the economy. There is no reason why a raider would deserve to be rewarded significantly more than anyone else. All a raider deserves is to be rewarded equally to everyone else, with perhaps a little padding to cover up for assumed failures. So on average, a successful raider should not be making significantly more than players succeeding in other areas of the game, and the relatively low number of successful raiders would keep the overall economic impact of this relatively low.

Certainly! Especially when the full Raid rewards are on a weekly lockout! It evens out perfectly in line with what Ononi suggests for proportional rewards!

Proportionately, if the raids are on a weekly lockout, then the alternative mechanisms could also be on a weekly lock-out. Or they could be on a daily lock-out, but with values that mean that seven days of that add up to one raid run. The idea would be to have a system that is balanced AND comfortable to all groups involved, not one that seeks to “punish” one group for not enjoying the activity of the other.

However the amount of effort a player puts into being a successful raider versus a successful farmer is Heaven and Earth here.

So? It’s a game. The amount of effort a player puts in is up to him. If he wants to put it into raiding, that’s great. If he wants to put it into something else, that’s fine too. It doesn’t make him a better or more deserving person just because he wants to put his time and effort into raiding instead of into other things.

That doesn’t mean the player farming is a lesser player, the activity in question is of a significantly easier design, which means the rewards for your efforts and invested time must follow proportionally!

Why?

Raiders are not masochists, Raiders want greater rewards for greater risk. Making the system dis-proportionally reward non-raiders at the same level as raiders for doing mundane tasks, doesn’t create a stable Raid Environment, Raid Content would be a waste of resources and time. The raid content would die out after every raider does it once, or even does one encounter maybe, because GW2 is all about the Horizontal Progression.

If raiders don’t enjoy raiding, then they shouldn’t be doing it. Look, there are all sorts of single player games out there. Some are very easy, and some are hardcore Rogue-likes. Some even have multiple difficulty levels, like easy and hard modes. Even given this, some people play those really hard games, or play games on the hardest mode available, because they enjoy it. They don’t get any special reward for playing a hard game relative to an easy game, their only “reward” is that they have had a gaming experience that they apparently enjoy.

That is the role raids can play here. They are for people that play GW2, but want a “hard mode” experience. That’s fine. It doesn’t mean that they are more entitled to rewards than players who prefer an “easy mode” experience.

Again, weekly rewards. Anyways it is not punishment when you yourself said that rewards should be available to all content, and rewards can be provided they are appropriately scaled to the effort it takes to do the content! How is that unreasonable? Someone who really likes Vinewrath would still be able to do Vinewrath and get what they want!

You’re being facetious. It’s like saying “yeah, I turned the main road into town into a toll road, so you have to pay a toll, but it’s ok, because instead of taking that fifteen minute route in, you can always take the three-day alternate route through the mountains, and that’s fair too.”

No, the alternative path to have any value, it has to be a reasonable proposition. It has to be one where if a player genuinely had no preference between Raids and X, he could flip a coin as to which he wanted to do and be satisfied either way, and if a player preferred raiding then raiding would be the best option, but if a player preferred X then X would ALSO be the best option, not some last chance, “only if you absolutely have to” option.

You can’t even be fair, even with your own system and you know why? Because you nor I have a clue on the metrics of the populace and what people REALLY want.

True, and the same of course applies to your own arguments. I think it’s important to try and figure out what the community does want, and how to react to that though. I think the early raid metrics will be important for this. If it turns out that most of the players do end up raiding within the first three to six months, then fine, let that be the new normal. If it turns out that only a tiny fraction of the population actually regularly engages in raiding, then they should probably rethink the reward systems.

My only real concern here is that they will behave as they’ve done with Fractals and sPvP, where even once it becomes clear that most of the players don’t care, they just keep doubling down on it and keep the exclusive things exclusive and keep trying to bribe players into playing those modes no matter how much they don’t actually want to be there.

If the majority of GW2 players end up happy with raiding, then I’m fine with that. It won’t be what I want but it’ll be what’s good for the game and that’s fine too. I just don’t want the scenario where the majority of GW2 players are not happy with raids, yet ANet never fully adapts to that reality and never makes the appropriate course corrections.

Did you raise a fuss about Liandri’s Mini and Title? Not nearly as much as you have been for the past month about Legendary Armor.

Were either of those things Legendary Armor?

Sykper.6583:

I can care less for your personal bias against raids, but don’t play it out that GW2 Raiding will split the community, this community of all things.

…it’s already happening, if you haven’t noticed. And we don’t even have them in game yet.

Sykper.6583:

Astralporing.1957:

If taking Raid route to reach a goal would take considerably shorter time for experienced raiders than other options, then it would be a shortcut.

…Which would be the case if any of the raiders (which GW2 has none as of yet, we are all going into this green as grass) had prior experience with GW2 Raids, which don’t exist. I am going to assume therefore that the GW2 raid coming up will take a lot of time, and a LOT MORE EFFORT than any PvE content in this game yet, even more so than Tequatl and Triple Wurm (hopefully).

That’s for the first days. By the end of the month there will be groups that will have it on farm status already. What then?

Sykper.6583:

Astralporing.1957:

Ah, i see it. So you think that running a raid a few times should be equal to dedicating all of your time daily for several months in a row.
No, i don’t think this is an equivalent effort at all.

Certainly! Especially when the full Raid rewards are on a weekly lockout!

So? You are equating a weekly lockout (so, a free time) with week-long several-hours-a-day activity? Sorry if i still don’t see any equivalency.

Sykper.6583:

Raiders are not masochists, Raiders want greater rewards for greater risk.

“Greater” does not necessarily need to mean “of better quality” or “unique”. Quantitative superiority should be enough, as long as it’s not too big.
Though if we go that way, then really PvP should offer the best rewards, because it requires higher skills that raids.
(notice here: I don’t personally like PvP. This is not the kind of content i’d want to run for rewards. Still, if we’re discussing skill and difficulty, this is definitely the most difiicult content in the game, and raids will not change that. No environmental effects or monster AI can offer a bigger challenge than other players.

Sykper.6583:

Again, weekly rewards. Anyways it is not punishment when you yourself said that rewards should be available to all content, and rewards can be provided they are appropriately scaled to the effort it takes to do the content!

Agreed. But you seriously overstate the effort needed for raids. Most of it is just an organizational difficulty of having 10 people able to dedicate several hours of time in the same timeframe.

Sykper.6583:

How is that unreasonable? Someone who really likes Vinewrath would still be able to do Vinewrath and get what they want!

Not with the ridiculously disproportionate scale of time invested that you propose, they wouldn’t.

If that isn’t enough, go in game, ask how people value a Legendary Weapon. Many will say something about hating that Legendary Weapon’s look, some would dismiss Legendary Weapons as a non-prestige item, others might hate how much it costs, you catch my drift.

Yes, but you’ll notice that most of the weapons that people agree “look kind of dumb” aren’t nearly as highly valued as the ones that people really like the look of. There is a floor, because there is a certain minimal cost to creating any Legendary, but if Legendary weapons were as cheap and common as other exotics to initially acquire, the market value on the better ones would be more in the 10g range while the lower end ones would be 1g.

What was the consensus? Raiding, raiding was a topic for many vocal players much like ourselves in this very thread to speak about. They talked, a lot. So many people and guilds

Yes, because raider players are VERY vocal about how they want raiding. This is well established, but has no real bearing on the total community of players in the game. And raiding itself is not necessarily a bad thing, so long as they are willing to let non-raiders be non-raiders, and not want to keep things away from them.

Windsagio.1340:

which is where Ohoni and I break;

Unique skins is fine, great even.

Adding implied value though the item quality system is problematic.

You and Ohoni are campaigning for different things then, His goal is the complete removal of unique skins. (by dissemination to other content/ secondary routes).

For the record I’m not against there being alternative Legendary armors (just not with the same skin) I.E There’s the Raid Legendary armor and the PvP Legendary armor and Fractal legendary armor but each has its own unique skin.
I was already expecting Fractals to have it’s own and was surprised when it didn’t.

Astralporing.1957:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Ohoni.6057:

There are very very very few items in this world that can be acquired ONLY through specific merit, and yet also have an inherent function as an object.

Except that’s complete nonsense. Not sure if you ever watch Tour De France but in that sport the person who’s currently number 1 gets to wear a yellow/golden outfit. No one else gets to wear a yellow outfit except for the best.

Where do you live that you cannot simply buy a yellow t-shirt in a shop? Yes, if you want you could even buy an identical one

That’s like saying that you can dress up your character outside GW2. Because rewards don’t matter to anyone but yourself then surely you can wear whatever you like outside the game.
Either way, I believe it’s against the rules to wear a replica yellow shirt in the Tour de France

“greater risk?” In what universe?

Let’s not mysticalize raids. They’re a different kind of content, and will likely never be the highest skill content in the game – not even of pve.

For the record I’m not against there being alternative Legendary armors (just not with the same skin) I.E There’s the Raid Legendary armor and the PvP Legendary armor and Fractal legendary armor but each has its own unique skin.

Why when people say things like this they always leave out “PvE Legendary Armor,” when that’s the activity most GW2 players enjoy most?

Just voicing that Lahanna and ohoni are just sad cats. Immature, entitled and suffering from severe victim complexes.

Rewards have since day 1 been assigned to certain content.
Arah armor for arah tokens (arah dungeon, now spvp too).
Living story items for living story content (and now laurels).
Fractal skins to FOTM.
Bioluminescence armor to terrible desert.
Raiding will give unique skins.

Just because the armor is legendary doesn’t mean it has actual functionality since your runes on different armor stats will have terrible synergy. The only valuable thing is the actual skin, nothing you feel nor your terrible arguments say will change that, this is FACT.

Also, legendary armor announced for raids. Ok. What will the vendors, unlocked by mastery bring us? What will beating meta world events into tier6+ give for rewards? What will adventures give for rewards?
First time I checked, legendary backpiece was fotm only, 2 weeks later a different backpiece available (also legendary) for sPvP.
Just because this legendary armor is announced doesn’t mean there won’t be different legendary armor sets for different game modes.

Seriously you 2 are the biggest sad cats I have seen in a very long time. Truly the most pristine among all the snowflakes in this thread.

If that were the case, people raiding would be cool if it were reduced to just the skin right?

(Na, we all know that’s not actually the case)

Ohoni.6057:

For the record I’m not against there being alternative Legendary armors (just not with the same skin) I.E There’s the Raid Legendary armor and the PvP Legendary armor and Fractal legendary armor but each has its own unique skin.

Why when people say things like this they always leave out “PvE Legendary Armor,” when that’s the activity most GW2 players enjoy most?

That’s not technically true PvE also encompasses Raids, Dungeons and Fractals. If you mean why did I leave out generic open world PvE,
It’s the activity most people DO, It’s almost certainly not the activity people enjoy the most it just happens to be a large area. It’s the baseline activity so to speak, the only thing below it is not playing the game. It’s what you do when you’ve got 20 minutes and feel like messing around. When you have time or actually have a focused goal for your playtime you generally do other activities. I don’t believe a legendary item should be granted for doing baseline activities, It’s for that reason I left out dungeons also as they have pretty much been reduced to baseline activities.
The same way as when I said PvP legendary armor, I did not mean “on a reward track that can be advanced by hotjoin, custom arenas or unranked” I meant “Is present on the top tier of the PvP leagues”.
You can also be sure it’s not obtainable from level 1-49 fractals.

I know you probobly won’t agree, but difficulty/skill /how its gotten, aside a legendary is meant to be rare, very rare, as in vast majority of players never end up with one type rare. That means some gates need to be in place, the simplest and least obtrusive of which is making the player take a conscientious decision to go for a legendary rather than it just being obtained by baseline play.
It’s an undertaking/journey the player chooses to take which will involve some focused gameplay.

Windsagio.1340:

If that were the case, people raiding would be cool if it were reduced to just the skin right?

(Na, we all know that’s not actually the case)

I would have been fine with just skins. A-net put legendary armor on the table so we have to deal with it. If it’s going to be introduced anyway , why not have that as the first acquisition method. I’m sure secondary methods such as Fractals and PvP leagues will come along. Better its under-available to start with than another Gen1 Legendary incident occurs.

Ohoni.6057:

[qote]For the record I’m not against there being alternative Legendary armors (just not with the same skin) I.E There’s the Raid Legendary armor and the PvP Legendary armor and Fractal legendary armor but each has its own unique skin.

Why when people say things like this they always leave out “PvE Legendary Armor,” when that’s the activity most GW2 players enjoy most?

[/quote]
So, why does there need to be legendary armor for all the modes? I bet a big majority of players doesn’t even like to build legendary gear with all it’s requirements.

Maybe just leave it out then.

Windsagio.1340:

If that were the case, people raiding would be cool if it were reduced to just the skin right?

(Na, we all know that’s not actually the case)

And that is how I know you are an entitled skritt. If the armor had legendary looks and ascended armor level, I dont think any raider would care if its legendary armor or ascended armor.

But just because three quaggans are bawwing up in this thread doesn’t mean that rewards should be dumbed down to appeal to their salty levels.

That’s not technically true PvE also encompasses Raids, Dungeons and Fractals. If you mean why did I leave out generic open world PvE,
It’s the activity most people DO, It’s almost certainly not the activity people enjoy the most it just happens to be a large area.

I think that if it’s the thing that most people do, then it’s the thing most people want to be doing. And as I’ve said, I think there’s a lot more overlap between raiders/fractal/PvP/WvW than there is between those players and open world PvEers. It’s all far more of that “competitive,” “best of the best” kind of nonsense that most players just laugh at.

So, why does there need to be legendary armor for all the modes? I bet a big majority of players doesn’t even like to build legendary gear with all it’s requirements.

Maybe just leave it out then.

Maybe, but if they do add it, and apparently they are, it should not just be through raid, or raid-like activities.

Ohoni.6057:

I think that if it’s the thing that most people do, then it’s the thing most people want to be doing. And as I’ve said, I think there’s a lot more overlap between raiders/fractal/PvP/WvW than there is between those players and open world PvEers. It’s all far more of that “competitive,” “best of the best” kind of nonsense that most players just laugh at.

Your derisive opinions of competitive style content aside, you have entered an environment where’s its present and its relative value is dictated by the game. I have yet to see anyone “laugh” at it and few people take major issue with it, laughing at it seems malicious. Would you walk into a CCG tournament and laugh at those players for putting effort in and competing just because you only like to collect the cards for their pictures?

Most people I know, the open world is generally considered a means to an end, while the fun is had in other aspects or the social end. Personally open world isn’t really fun for me,content wise it’s boring and zergy ,nearly none of the static dynamic events have major story plot points,and anything I do in it a million other players have already done and will do, nothing I do in it is worth a kitten . (Que , you only play with ultra competitive raider types so your view is horrifically skewed, while not true at all, same back to you with only ultra relaxed playtime players only).

Setz.9675:

Windsagio.1340:

If that were the case, people raiding would be cool if it were reduced to just the skin right?

(Na, we all know that’s not actually the case)

And that is how I know you are an entitled skritt. If the armor had legendary looks and ascended armor level, I dont think any raider would care if its legendary armor or ascended armor.

But just because three quaggans are bawwing up in this thread doesn’t mean that rewards should be dumbed down to appeal to their salty levels.

Mentioned above; I’ll likely end up raiding, just to keep with my friends. I don’t particularly care about the reward either.

~~~

That being said, the attitude about it bugs me.

I don’t care about the ‘legendary prestige thing’ personally, but it’s definitely real, and something care about a lot. Putting it on a specific game mode is cheezy at best, and annoying. To that end I empathize with people Like Ohoni (even if I find them a little extreme).

They hate raiding and don’t want to do it but feel pressured to do so by Arenanet’s design decision — which was almost certainly the intent of putting legendary armor exclusively in raids. It’s reasonable to resent the pressure.

~~~

And again, empathy.

Lakanna.2073:

And “you have to do what I did to EARN your right to this weapon skin” makes you sound like a smug elitist. Not that you’ve said that, but others have. I see the game as a game: meant to be entertaining and fun. I HAVE a full-time job where I do things that I sometimes don’t enjoy to earn the things I want. It’s called “work” and not “play” for that very reason. I log into a game to enjoy some downtime, NOT to just spend yet more time doing things I don’t think are fun to get something I want.
Challenging content can be fun, don’t get me wrong. But when you have to do the content for the reward and not because it’s what you want to be doing, then it’s a flaw in the content or a flaw in the reward system. And as I mentioned before, just because its traditional to lock good rewards behind raids, doesn’t mean that it will work for GW2, which has been almost aggressive about giving players options, alternatives, and choices about how they want to play the game.

Edit: It isn’t “they shouldn’t get exclusive things.” It’s “nobody should get exclusive skins.” Titles, sure. And I’m not pushing for exclusive skins for my way of playing and for nobody else: that would, to me, be stupid, selfish, and unnecessary. It creates conflict within the community for no real benefit to the game. But that’s part of what I’ve said before too.

I don’t see how any of this ties into exclusive skins. If you don’t like doing raids, fine, don’t do them. Nobody is forcing you. You’re only forcing yourself because you somehow act OCD about getting all the shiny skins.

When I look at this thread, I generally see 2 types of mindsets.

1) People who just stick to playing the game-modes they enjoy. They want to get good at it and want to be rewarded for it. They want to have something to show for their dedication to their game-mode of choice.

2) People who want ALL the latest goodies and shinies and therefor play ALL the content related to those shinies, even if they don’t like that content, because they MUST have those shinies. Eventually they become frustrated and GW2 is no longer fun to them, so they go to the forums and complain about exclusive rewards.

Personally I belong to group 1. It seems you and Ohoni belong to group 2. That’s why you’re complaining about “having to do content for the reward” because that’s how you play the game.

Obviously, the problem isn’t exclusive rewards, the problem is your greedy hoarder mentality.

Ohoni.6057:

I’m saying that aesthetically pleasing items should never exist ONLY as status symbols. If people want the item for the aesthetic alone, they should be able to get it without having to meet the measure of what would earn them “status.”

So you’re saying that a Ferrari should never exist?

I mean a Ferrari car is aesthetically pleasing. It also has functionality as a vehicle. It’s also a status symbol, a car that only the very rich among us can get, driving a Ferrari shows to everyone that you have it made.

Exclusive armor skins that are rewarded for difficult content are no different. They are aesthetically pleasing, they have functionality and they are a status symbol.

Just because you don’t like their existence because you might never get a Ferrari, doesn’t mean Ferrari’s shouldn’t exist.

Ohoni.6057:

Oho?

https://www.google.com/gws_rd=ssl#q=tour+de+france+yellow+jersey&safe=off&tbm=shop

A replica is not the same thing as the real thing. This has already been debunked by another poster. Me being able to get a replica of the yellow shirt would be equivalent to me modding Sunrise into Skyrim and using Sunrise in that game. It’s completely irrelevant.

Ohoni.6057:

Except that the value of all rewards is entirely subjective,

Stop right there bro. You’re wrong. The value of all rewards is not entirely subjective. Just look at the Trading Post prices. Eternity is objectively more valuable than Sunrise. Sure, I might like Sunrise more. In fact I could have crafted Eternity but I didn’t because I prefer Sunrise over Eternity. That doesn’t mean Eternity isn’t objectively more valuable than Sunrise though, it obviously is.

Ohoni.6057:

I’ve played dozens of MMOs before this one,m but found them largely unsatisfying and didn’t stick with any of them even half as long as I have GW2. I imagine the same is true for a lot of GW2 players. I believe that GW2’s success is in people who like the concept of MMOs, but who were driven away from other MMOs by features that GW2 deliberately avoided, like paid subscriptions or raiding culture. GW2 succeeded by not being a WoW clone. If people are happy with how other MMOs do things, they are too busy playing those games to be playing GW2.

I think you’re being naive and idealistic. I’m sure the vast majority of us who play GW2 are doing so because it’s buy2play (now free2play) as opposed to a monthly subscription game. I’m sure if GW2 would become a monthly subscription game a lot of us would abandon GW2. Some of us might go back to WoW (although from what I’ve heard WoW isn’t as good anymore as it used to be, but I wouldn’t know as I haven’t played WoW anymore since WoTLK).

Now don’t get me wrong, I obviously do like GW2 and I do think GW2 does certain aspects better than WoW, but there are a lot of things that WoW does better than GW2, two of those things are endgame content and rewards.

I’m therefor glad to see that GW2 is catching up and giving us raids with exclusive legendary rewards in HoT. That certainly seems like a giant step in the right direction to me and will definitely blow new life in GW2.

I actually looked up the LotRO article mentioned earlier in the thread. Raiders were a large majority of the forum posters, and easily the loudest voices. When they stopped making new raids, the numbers came out: raiders were less than 10% of the entire community. I’d LOVE to see the numbers for GW2 in 6 months, in a year. See how many of the raiders are still raiding, see how many people are actually doing this content they spent however much time and effort on. I bet we see similar numbers.
If they have to make the raids drop exclusive loot just to get people to play them, then that’s the way it goes. I’m willing to bet that raids go the way of dungeons, eventually: not enough people playing them and enjoying hem to justify spending more dev time on them.

Ohoni.6057:

I’ve played dozens of MMOs before this one,m but found them largely unsatisfying and didn’t stick with any of them even half as long as I have GW2. I imagine the same is true for a lot of GW2 players. I believe that GW2’s success is in people who like the concept of MMOs, but who were driven away from other MMOs by features that GW2 deliberately avoided, like paid subscriptions or raiding culture. GW2 succeeded by not being a WoW clone. If people are happy with how other MMOs do things, they are too busy playing those games to be playing GW2.

I agree with you that GW2 has gotten allot of attention for not being an exact copy of wow, it also however, like you said, it also lost allot of people who did want meaningfull stuff to do at lvl 80 right at launch. To suggest that Arenanet should not try to get some of those players back, is in a buisness point of view, pretty dumb, even if you don’t like them, they would make GW2 even bigger. And it’s not like anyone is going to leave GW2 because they have one more thing to do. In addition to that, i do not know a single player, that hasn’t taken a break from GW2 since launch. Most of my guild have missed about a year in the 3 years GW2 is out. Why, because they got bored. No offense to you if you love GW2 as it is, but this expansion is coming for a reason, GW2 had trouble keeping peope interested. That is the simple truth.

Now i don’t want GW2 to become wow, i don’t want gear progression and i don’t want content to be irrelevant. That being said, other games do have their strong points, and to say GW2 can’t take anything from them, is in my opinion rediculous.
Heart of Thornes is in allot of ways reaching out to the general mmo community, as is free to play, and it’s only going to make this game more popular.

But this quote again proves you think you are the majority and i honestly cannot believe that, you must see that most people take long breaks from the game, that the game right now, isn’t all that for them. Again, i do not know a single person, in my friendlist or guild, that hasn’t at one point taken a 5 month or longer break. That isn’t good you know, because we love GW2, we have played GW1 together aswell and GW1 never had this effect on our guild. But somehow GW2 didn’t have that same depth to us. I hope HoT can fix some of those issues, because it’s clearly not just me.

Anyway, i’m done discussing this now, i can’t reason when you always counter my arguments with personal opinion and trow it around like it’s fact. I haven’t met a single person ingame that thinks like you do, not one. I have however met allot of people who look forwards to raids, who are excited about them, many of them who have been playing since launch. So your logic that GW2 players do not want this, is totally flawed according to what i’ve seen ingame. Have a good day.

I’m probably speculating when it come to this but. How does raid balance gonna really works when it comes to professions?

Most boons target are limited to 5 people. So, with that you’ll have 2 guards for important survival boons, 2 warriors for damage modifier and boons (banner n might stacking), 2-3 eles for conjured weapons and might stacking perhaps.

3 Professions with 6 at least guaranteed spots out of 10men. The rest of 4 spots filled with engi, mesmer, rev, rangers, thiefs and dead last necro.

Engi and mesmer bring lots of utilities.
Rev and Ranger brings optional boons and damage modifier that probably can be replaced with food and utility consumable.
Thiefs is only needed when there is stealth.
Necro, all i can say is auch. Optional survival utility probably.

Balancing is hard :/

Pino.5209:

I’m probably speculating when it come to this but. How does raid balance gonna really works when it comes to professions?

Most boons target are limited to 5 people. So, with that you’ll have 2 guards for important survival boons, 2 warriors for damage modifier and boons (banner n might stacking), 2-3 eles for conjured weapons and might stacking perhaps.

3 Professions with 6 at least guaranteed spots out of 10men. The rest of 4 spots filled with engi, mesmer, rev, rangers, thiefs and dead last necro.

Engi and mesmer bring lots of utilities.
Rev and Ranger brings optional boons and damage modifier that probably can be replaced with food and utility consumable.
Thiefs is only needed when there is stealth.
Necro, all i can say is auch. Optional survival utility probably.

Balancing is hard :/

2x parties of 5?
Not sure yet how the party system will be reworked or if anet just makes it split into 2 groups with 5 men each to keep it consistent with the boons share stuff limit of 5… unless anet actually reworks the stuff in the raids to be 10 limit…

We’ll have to wait and see to answer your concerns but balancing the raid is probably least of my worries… everything anet has added in PvE is beatable by any profession or any group of profession… raids won’t be any different.