Instanced Raids Confirmed [merged]
I’m probably speculating when it come to this but. How does raid balance gonna really works when it comes to professions?
Most boons target are limited to 5 people. So, with that you’ll have 2 guards for important survival boons, 2 warriors for damage modifier and boons (banner n might stacking), 2-3 eles for conjured weapons and might stacking perhaps.
3 Professions with 6 at least guaranteed spots out of 10men. The rest of 4 spots filled with engi, mesmer, rev, rangers, thiefs and dead last necro.
Engi and mesmer bring lots of utilities.
Rev and Ranger brings optional boons and damage modifier that probably can be replaced with food and utility consumable.
Thiefs is only needed when there is stealth.
Necro, all i can say is auch. Optional survival utility probably.Balancing is hard :/
2x parties of 5?
Not sure yet how the party system will be reworked or if anet just makes it split into 2 groups with 5 men each to keep it consistent with the boons share stuff limit of 5… unless anet actually reworks the stuff in the raids to be 10 limit…We’ll have to wait and see to answer your concerns but balancing the raid is probably least of my worries… everything anet has added in PvE is beatable by any profession or any group of profession… raids won’t be any different.
I’m not referring to the parties number. We know it’s gonna be 10. If you read most skill boons and damage modifier only limited to 5 people.
1guard 1war for 5ppl and another 1 guard 1 war for another 5ppl.
2 eles are a must.
4 spots left …. -_-
Your derisive opinions of competitive style content aside, you have entered an environment where’s its present and its relative value is dictated by the game. I have yet to see anyone “laugh” at it and few people take major issue with it, laughing at it seems malicious. Would you walk into a CCG tournament and laugh at those players for putting effort in and competing just because you only like to collect the cards for their pictures?
I would laugh at anyone who took it so seriously that they would feel their seriousness entitled them to goaltend cool items away from the people just playing for fun.
I think that playing these games with a sense of competition is all fine and good until the point where it starts to get to people’s heads, where they start to think “I play this game super serious, and I play better than that guy, so I deserve to be given good stuff, and he deserves lesser stuff.”
Most people I know, the open world is generally considered a means to an end, while the fun is had in other aspects or the social end. Personally open world isn’t really fun for me,content wise it’s boring and zergy ,nearly none of the static dynamic events have major story plot points,and anything I do in it a million other players have already done and will do, nothing I do in it is worth a kitten .
And that’s fine. If I had my way you would never have to do open world again if you don’t want to, anything the open world could offer you, other modes would offer you too. Just understand that how you feel is not how other people feel, and that’s why the reward systems should be as flexible as possible, to accommodate as many people as possible.
1) People who just stick to playing the game-modes they enjoy. They want to get good at it and want to be rewarded for it. They want to have something to show for their dedication to their game-mode of choice.
2) People who want ALL the latest goodies and shinies and therefor play ALL the content related to those shinies, even if they don’t like that content, because they MUST have those shinies. Eventually they become frustrated and GW2 is no longer fun to them, so they go to the forums and complain about exclusive rewards.
Personally I belong to group 1. It seems you and Ohoni belong to group 2. That’s why you’re complaining about “having to do content for the reward” because that’s how you play the game.
Yeah, I tend to agree, which is why I’m pushing for some changes so that players in both groups 1 AND 2 can play the mode they want, and get whatever rewards they might want. Either way though, I get the impression that people you placed in group 1 are somehow more noble than those you put into group 2, and I assure you, there is no case for that.
So you’re saying that a Ferrari should never exist?
I mean a Ferrari car is aesthetically pleasing. It also has functionality as a vehicle. It’s also a status symbol, a car that only the very rich among us can get, driving a Ferrari shows to everyone that you have it made.
Anyone can get a Ferrari if they can put the money together. You can’t only get the Ferrari by working a single occupation, even a janitor could buy a Ferrari if he came into some money, or if he waited to buy a well used one.
People might use Ferrari as a status symbol, but that was not their intent. Their intent was to be the best car possible, and that ended up costing money, so only the wealthy can afford them. And the same should be true of Legendary Armor in the game, it should take time and effort to earn, but whether that time and effort is spent in Raids, or PvP, or WvW, or dungeons, or open world, or whatever, that time and effort should be honored.
A replica is not the same thing as the real thing. This has already been debunked by another poster. Me being able to get a replica of the yellow shirt would be equivalent to me modding Sunrise into Skyrim and using Sunrise in that game. It’s completely irrelevant.
Ok, so you’re cool with people just being able to get the skins then. Problem solved.
Stop right there bro. You’re wrong. The value of all rewards is not entirely subjective. Just look at the Trading Post prices. Eternity is objectively more valuable than Sunrise.
Eternity is more expensive because it costs significantly more to craft. It’s not necessarily more desired, but people need to recover the cost of making one. If you run the numbers, you’re almost certain to LOSE money making and selling an Eternity, or at the very least not turn as much of a profit as you would by just selling the components individually (I think you might get to keep the Sunrise and Twilight skins when you do this though, so it would be the best way to defray the costs of that).
But Twilight is also more expensive than Sunrise. It’s only more valuable for entirely subjective reasons. It’s actually more expensive to craft, and exactly equal in all measurable ways, the only difference between the two is that more people like a starfield than a sunset, and that is subjective. Now well after the fact, ANet can tell that one is more desirable than the other, but it’s not something they could predict in advance, it’s not based on any measurable values.
I think you’re being naive and idealistic. I’m sure the vast majority of us who play GW2 are doing so because it’s buy2play (now free2play) as opposed to a monthly subscription game. I’m sure if GW2 would become a monthly subscription game a lot of us would abandon GW2.
Probably, but there are plenty of other F2P MMOs out there, so the price isn’t the only factor involved. Lack of raids is one of the few selling points that GW2 still currently has over the competition.
Now don’t get me wrong, I obviously do like GW2 and I do think GW2 does certain aspects better than WoW, but there are a lot of things that WoW does better than GW2, two of those things are endgame content and rewards.
Right, which is why many of us are playing GW2 instead of WoW, and why people who do want those things can play those instead.
I actually looked up the LotRO article mentioned earlier in the thread. Raiders were a large majority of the forum posters, and easily the loudest voices. When they stopped making new raids, the numbers came out: raiders were less than 10% of the entire community. I’d LOVE to see the numbers for GW2 in 6 months, in a year.
And let’s not forget the raider’s Valhalla, Wildstar, which took the MMO world by storm last fall (which is to say, it was over within a few hours).
I agree with you that GW2 has gotten allot of attention for not being an exact copy of wow, it also however, like you said, it also lost allot of people who did want meaningfull stuff to do at lvl 80 right at launch. To suggest that Arenanet should not try to get some of those players back, is in a buisness point of view, pretty dumb, even if you don’t like them, they would make GW2 even bigger. And it’s not like anyone is going to leave GW2 because they have one more thing to do
First, I really doubt there will be a lot of those disgruntled raiders that will buy HoT. People who bought GW2 and were dissatisfied with the endgame are not likely to shell out another $50 to give them another shot at it. The people buying HoT are people already playing and enjoying the game for what it is.
Second, I don’t think anyone will leave “because they have one more thing to do,” but it’s quite possible that people leave if they feel that the people doing this “one more thing” are being better rewarded than those playing “anything else,” which is the worrying implications of the discussion of raiding so far. If raiding is viewed by ANet as no more consequential than any other activity in the game, then fine, but if it’s viewed by them as the place they put all the best rewards, then I’m sorry, but kitten that.
Not everyone will be playing everything, but that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be there. If 10% of the entire GW2 playerbase would actively participate in raids then raids will be considered a huge success.
Perhaps, but those 10% should not feel entitled to rewards that the other 90% can’t have.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Yeah, I tend to agree, which is why I’m pushing for some changes so that players in both groups 1 AND 2 can play the mode they want, and get whatever rewards they might want. Either way though, I get the impression that people you placed in group 1 are somehow more noble than those you put into group 2, and I assure you, there is no case for that.
Except that’s not possible. You’ll never be able to please both groups equally. Making rewards non-exclusive will devalue the rewards and people who become particularly good at one specific game-mode will have nothing fancy to show for it. There is a reason why legendaries in GW2 are meaningless and not nearly as exciting to get as legendaries in other MMOs such as WoW. It’s because they’re non-exclusive and anyone with enough time spend in the game or with a credit card can get one.
GW2 is not a very rewarding game. The rewards in GW2 suck and it’s because it lacks any meaningful exclusive rewards. Getting a legendary is a boring grind that takes no skill. Meanwhile pulling off impressive feats in GW2 gives you nothing to show for it. it sucks.
GW2 getting meaningful exclusive rewards restricted to specific content will make the game better and more rewarding. People like you are just gonna have to suck it up and deal with it.
Anyone can get a Ferrari if they can put the money together. You can’t only get the Ferrari by working a single occupation, even a janitor could buy a Ferrari if he came into some money, or if he waited to buy a well used one.
That is completely nonsense and you know it. No janitor will ever be able to afford a Ferrari simply through hard work. Not in a million years. Only the people who work extremely well-paid jobs or people who win the lottery will be able to afford a Ferrari.
Unless you have extremely rich parents, a good job or win the lottery, you’ll never ever get a Ferrari and you know this.
Legendary armor will be no different. Well, it will be somewhat different, because in GW2 everyone is equal. Everyone can do raids and everyone can get good at them provided they spend enough time to learn their profession and the raid mechanics., unlike real-life where sometimes the cards are just stacked against you and no matter how hard you work you’ll never be able to land that fantastic job that enables you to afford that Ferrari.
People might use Ferrari as a status symbol, but that was not their intent. Their intent was to be the best car possible, and that ended up costing money, so only the wealthy can afford them. And the same should be true of Legendary Armor in the game, it should take time and effort to earn, but whether that time and effort is spent in Raids, or PvP, or WvW, or dungeons, or open world, or whatever, that time and effort should be honored.
Except that’s not how the world works. You’re saying that because a janitor works just as hard at his job as a STEM-researcher, he should be equally rewarded. No, you’re not even arguing he should be equally rewarded, you’re arguing he should get THE EXACT SAME reward as the STEM-researcher.
Can’t you see how ridiculous that sounds?
I mean don’t get me wrong, when it comes to GW2 I fully believe that hard work should be paid off. I believe that everyone who manages to pull of an impressive feat should get something to show for it. However, homogenizing the rewards is not the way to go.
If I’m a PvPer and I manage to become the best, and all I get is a piece of armor that basically any person with a credit card or anyone who grinded enough hours in PvE can also get, the piece of armor will not feel very rewarding. The piece of armor will not have any identity, it will just be another meaningless skin that anyone can get.
Having exclusive rewards will make the rewards themselves better and feel more rewarding, which in turn will make working hard to become good so you get that one piece of unique swag that nobody else has that much more fun.
Ok, so you’re cool with people just being able to get the skins then. Problem solved.
O my god are you serious? No I’m not. I don’t even get how you came to that conclusion.
Probably, but there are plenty of other F2P MMOs out there, so the price isn’t the only factor involved. Lack of raids is one of the few selling points that GW2 still currently has over the competition.
LMAO are you serious? The lack of raids is actually one of the many reasons people stopped playing GW2 after they reached lvl 80 and got bored because GW2’s lack of endgame PvE content. It’s not a selling point at all, it’s actually hampering GW2’s sales and growth. Anet knows this. That’s why they are adding raids in HoT.
GW2 is still one of the best F2P MMOs and that’s certainly a reason why many people choose GW2 over another F2P MMO, but the lack of raids are not a selling point. If it was then Anet wouldn’t be adding raids in HoT now would they?
And let’s not forget the raider’s Valhalla, Wildstar, which took the MMO world by storm last fall (which is to say, it was over within a few hours).
The reason Wildstar failed has nothing, absolutely NOTHING to do with the fact that it was focused on raiding.
I played Wildstar, and the reason I’m not playing it anymore is because the combat in that game sucks, the raids are actually not that well balanced and designed (which is unacceptable for a game focused on raids), the PvP in it sucks and ultimately it’s just a very poorly designed game with many archaic and outdated design concepts that were considered good back in the vanilla WoW years but simply aren’t acceptable anymore in 2014-2015.
First, I really doubt there will be a lot of those disgruntled raiders that will buy HoT. People who bought GW2 and were dissatisfied with the endgame are not likely to shell out another $50 to give them another shot at it. The people buying HoT are people already playing and enjoying the game for what it is.
And this is where you’re wrong. I know plenty of people who quit GW2 because they were bored (because of the lack of endgame content) who are now coming back for HoT.
Perhaps, but those 10% should not feel entitled to rewards that the other 90% can’t have.
Yes they should. Just as the 10% playing PvP should be entitled to rewards that the other 90% who don’t play PvP can’t have. Or the 10% playing WvW. Or the 10% doing fractals.
Exclusive rewards aren’t unfair if EVERY game-mode gets their own exclusive rewards, which is what I’m advocating for, which is what we already kinda have and which is what we’re gonna get more of in HoT (which I’m very happy about).
(edited by LucosTheDutch.4819)
Ohoni, you need to realize the main point/fun of the game is not appearance customization.
All your premises are based on the idea that the game is designed primarily for people to get whatever appearance they want.
appearances were ALWAYS designed to be based on unique content.
Karma armor requires you to do the heart to unlock the merchant
dungeon armor requires you to do the dungeon
racial armor is limited to whatever race you choose.
personal story has unique items
seasonal events give specific gears
what you are asking for is a radical change that will make the game inferior in design and gameplay. The game was designed, from its inception, as using looks to encourage people to play longer/better/different.
your design already exists, and you see its problems in both karma and gold implementations.
there is no good way to do what it is you want to do, and make a well designed game/reward system
Honestly it seems Ohoni is treating GW2 as dressup simulator, which is not the intent of the designers.
Maybe GW2 isn’t the game for him and he should play a dressup game instead? It seems that’s what he wants. I think Second Life or IMVU got you covered Ohoni. Maybe you should play that.
I can care less for your personal bias against raids, but don’t play it out that GW2 Raiding will split the community, this community of all things.
…it’s already happening, if you haven’t noticed. And we don’t even have them in game yet.
Yet that “split” doesn’t come from the raiders, it’s the non raiders that are trying to split the community in raiders and non-raiders. It’s those who don’t want the exclusive raid rewards that are being the most vocal and toxic at the moment, although having exclusive rewards behind specific content is working as anything else in the game.
And to add, the complains are for no reason at all. We haven’t seen how we will get the legendary armor, only that the precursors will be available in the raid only, yet we don’t know anything about them. Traded, non traded, bound/unbound, tokens, RNG, first boss, second boss, final boss, we know nothing and moreover we haven’t even seen the raid in action to see what kind of content is has. Yet the anti-raid crowd is up in arms about something we know nearly nothing about because it has the “potential” to ruin the game.
And the most puzzling thing ever is why in the world are people already dismissing raids as something they will never do without even trying it first.
If that were the case, people raiding would be cool if it were reduced to just the skin right?
(Na, we all know that’s not actually the case)
And that is how I know you are an entitled skritt. If the armor had legendary looks and ascended armor level, I dont think any raider would care if its legendary armor or ascended armor.
But just because three quaggans are bawwing up in this thread doesn’t mean that rewards should be dumbed down to appeal to their salty levels.
Mentioned above; I’ll likely end up raiding, just to keep with my friends. I don’t particularly care about the reward either.
~~~
That being said, the attitude about it bugs me.
I don’t care about the ‘legendary prestige thing’ personally, but it’s definitely real, and something care about a lot. Putting it on a specific game mode is cheezy at best, and annoying. To that end I empathize with people Like Ohoni (even if I find them a little extreme).
They hate raiding and don’t want to do it but feel pressured to do so by Arenanet’s design decision — which was almost certainly the intent of putting legendary armor exclusively in raids. It’s reasonable to resent the pressure.
~~~
And again, empathy.
Well I resented grinding the gold and doing map completion for my legendary weapons, but I still did it because the looks > the effort I put into it. That decision is for everyone to make.
The ‘I feel pressed doing this game mode by design’ is nothing short of ridiculous if not absurd. No one is holding a gun to your head and forcing your to clear this type of content, if you do not get legendary armor YOU DO NOT FALL BEHIND ON ANYONE. How do you even fabricate this truelly moronic thought process? It all boils down to being entitled to all the rewards with minimal effort.
I want to have a kittening private island, needs to have a white beach, blue sea and I need to be able to land on it with a private plane. Oh the money for that (effort to earn it)? I don’t even care about the jobs (effort) that makes people able to afford (acquire) them so why are the most luxurious things locked behind the biggest paywalls (most difficult content)? Its cheesy to have my private island and private jet locked behind a paywall (raid) when I want to earn it by sitting on a field all day long looking at the trees.
Except that’s not possible. You’ll never be able to please both groups equally. Making rewards non-exclusive will devalue the rewards and people who become particularly good at one specific game-mode will have nothing fancy to show for it.
But they’ll also have access to all the fancy things from all the other game modes, so they don’t lose anything. They get all their fancy stuff PLUS other fancy stuff. All they would be “losing” is the right to lord their fancy stuff over people who don’t have it, and sorry if I can’t shed a tear over that. If those people have to be sad, then I’m perfectly content with them being sad, because their happiness can only come at the expense of others.
That is completely nonsense and you know it. No janitor will ever be able to afford a Ferrari simply through hard work. Not in a million years. Only the people who work extremely well-paid jobs or people who win the lottery will be able to afford a Ferrari.
What if he wins the lottery? Or what if it’s in very bad shape and sells in the low thousands? Apparently this guy figured it out: http://ifunny.co/fun/UzCHdvya1
I’m not saying it’s likely that a janitor would get a Ferrari, but there is no hard limit on it, and if we use say a more reasonable occupation, one making maybe $100k a year, you could afford a Ferrari in 2-3 years of saving if you were frugal in the rest of your life. The point is, while acquiring a Ferrari might be a high effort goal that might take a lot of time or a lot of work, it’s not restricted to any one occupation. There are hundreds of different types of jobs in which you could afford a Ferrari within a year, hundreds more in which you could afford one within several years, thousands in which you could afford one within decades of saving.
I’m not saying that acquiring Legendary Armor should become an easy or fast task, just that it should not be restricted to a single role, or type of role.
Legendary armor will be no different. Well, it will be somewhat different, because in GW2 everyone is equal. Everyone can do raids and everyone can get good at them provided they spend enough time to learn their profession and the raid mechanics., unlike real-life where sometimes the cards are just stacked against you and no matter how hard you work you’ll never be able to land that fantastic job that enables you to afford that Ferrari.
That’s really no different than saying that everyone can become a Doctor or a Lawyer. It’s technically possible, but still unlikely.
Except that’s not how the world works. You’re saying that because a janitor works just as hard at his job as a STEM-researcher, he should be equally rewarded. No, you’re not even arguing he should be equally rewarded, you’re arguing he should get THE EXACT SAME reward as the STEM-researcher.
Can’t you see how ridiculous that sounds?
Ok, I’m going to explain how the world works. There are people who are really good at basketball. They make millions of dollars per year. There are billions of people who can play basketball. They do not make millions of dollars per year, because while they can play, they cannot play as well as those who do make the big bucks.
Now, do these high priced athletes make a ton of money because that is their universal right? Because the universe decreed that money must be tithed to those who are skilled at ball-through-hoop? No. They make money because they work for large Basketball organizations that make money off of people watching their games and buying their merchandise, and they’ve learned that people are more willing to watch the very best than they are to watch random schlubs.
Given that, the very best athletes are worth paying more than lesser athletes, not because of some universal decree that they are “worth it,” but because the add value to the people who pay them that money.
Now, this is the important bit. *If you are the very best raider in the game, you are no more important than that guy who spends all day Silverwaste farming. *
You just aren’t. You do not bring any more value to the product than they do. In fact, it’s possible that that guy is more valuable than you, as all that really matters as far as your value goes, is how much cash money you spend in the gem store. A player with one level 30 character who has spent hundreds of dollars on trinkets and boosts in the gem store would be worth more than a dozen players with Legendaries and all the best gearing who have mastered every piece of content, if those players only bought the base game on sale and maybe a few bank slots or whatever.
Your being good at the game does not matter to anyone but yourself.
So keep that in mind. The game does not “owe” you great rewards for great accomplishments because completing those “accomplishments” does not actually accomplish anything. Any reward you get is a gift, not a payment for services rendered. If they choose to gift you with fancy things that you enjoy, then that’s all well and good, but if they choose to also gift people that you view as being less skilled than yourself, well that’s none of your business.
Now stop trying to compare being good at the game to being successful at real life, the goals and reward structures involve have absolutely nothing to do with each other.
If I’m a PvPer and I manage to become the best, and all I get is a piece of armor that basically any person with a credit card or anyone who grinded enough hours in PvE can also get, the piece of armor will not feel very rewarding. The piece of armor will not have any identity, it will just be another meaningless skin that anyone can get.
That’s fine. The skin should not be there as a mark of achievement, that is what “achievements” are for.
Having exclusive rewards will make the rewards themselves better and feel more rewarding, which in turn will make working hard to become good so you get that one piece of unique swag that nobody else has that much more fun.
That is entirely your subjective experience. To someone else who wants that reward but does not at all enjoy the content to which it is locked, “working hard to become good” would be a form of torture. If you want to lock something up like that as a personal goal, then that’s fine, but don’t try to force it onto others.
If you feel that it makes things more rewarding to have a goal like that, then you can always set it yourself. In the system I described, many rewards would have a “core” source, a place where they are at least slightly “cheaper” to acquire, as the other methods would result in less of those tokens, or having to transfer the tokens over at a lossy rate. So like if you wanted Glorious armor, PvP would still be the most efficient way to earn it. So even in a system like I described, if you felt that “clearing PvP” was the way you wanted to earn Glorious armor, you could, and if you felt that the restriction was important, you can impose it on yourself, saying “even if I could get this elsewhere, I refuse to do so, and will only acquire it if I can manage to acquire it this way.”
All this requires is a little personal discipline.
“Ok, so you’re cool with people just being able to get the skins then. Problem solved.”
O my god are you serious? No I’m not. I don’t even get how you came to that conclusion.
Because you said, and I quote: "A replica is not the same thing as the real thing. This has already been debunked by another poster. "
So a replica “yellow jersey” might not be the “real thing,” but it is indistinguishable from the real thing, which is exactly like what a skin is. So all we’re asking is the ability to earn an indistinguishable replica of the desired prize, and you seem to agree that this is ok.
LMAO are you serious? The lack of raids is actually one of the many reasons people stopped playing GW2 after they reached lvl 80 and got bored because GW2’s lack of endgame PvE content.
Yes, and the game went on fine without those people because they were loud but few in number. Meanwhile games that focused on raids lost everyone else, and death spiraled. It’s like if you have a cake store, and you say “we won’t sell any Limburger cheese cakes.” and all the fan of Limburger cheese cakes say “how dare you, well you won’t see our business!” and storm out, but there were only a handful of those guys, and meanwhile all their other customers are quite happy about that, because Limburger cheese cakes were really stinking up the place and making things unpleasant for them.
If the players who “stormed off” due to GW2’s lack of raids were actually of any concern to ANet, you can bet that they wouldn’t have waited three years to try and correct the issue. If they were really concerned about raiders fleeing the game in significant numbers then there would have been a raid announced by the first Wintersday.
They know it’s a selling point with a certain market, and three years in they seem to be secure enough in their position to try and have their Limburger cakes and eat them too, and we’ll see how that’ll work out for them, but it’s a real gamble, and I don’t think they have any chance of picking up as many characters as they could stand to lose if they mess it up.
The reason Wildstar failed has nothing, absolutely NOTHING to do with the fact that it was focused on raiding.
Suuuuuure.
Yes they should. Just as the 10% playing PvP should be entitled to rewards that the other 90% who don’t play PvP can’t have. Or the 10% playing WvW. Or the 10% doing fractals.
Nope, nope, and nope.
Exclusive rewards aren’t unfair if EVERY game-mode gets their own exclusive rewards, which is what I’m advocating for, which is what we already kinda have and which is what we’re gonna get more of in HoT (which I’m very happy about).
Exclusive rewards are always unfair because they are always subjective. What if people like the open world PvE reward better than the raid exclusive rewards? What if they like the PvP better than the WvW? What if two people can’t agree on which they like better, but the WvW guy likes the PvP exclusives and the PvP guy likes the WvW exclusives? It’s literally IMPOSSIBLE to balance exclusive rewards across multiple types of content, much more difficult than you guys have claimed my token-balancing system would be. There is no single balance that would be ideal for even most people, much less all of them. This is why it’s important to allow people to chose the rewards they want to go after, and pursue them within content that they enjoy, so that ANet does not have to worry about trying to make sure that the raid rewards are “just as good” as the open world PvE ones.
Ohoni, you need to realize the main point/fun of the game is not appearance customization.
If that’s true for you, that’s fine, but it’s not true for everyone else. You can’t impose your own values of what is important and what is not onto other players.
Karma armor requires you to do the heart to unlock the merchant
dungeon armor requires you to do the dungeon
racial armor is limited to whatever race you choose.
personal story has unique items
seasonal events give specific gears
Would you agree that these are mostly low bars to cross? If the Raid Legendary Armor is an equally low bar, then I can deal with it, but if it is, as I believe we all assume, a higher bar of skill, time, and effort than any of the things you describe, then it is a much more significant problem than any of those things.
what you are asking for is a radical change that will make the game inferior in design and gameplay. The game was designed, from its inception, as using looks to encourage people to play longer/better/different.
The system I describe would not force people to play better, but nor is anyone served by a player playing better. It would not force them to play different systems if they didn’t want to, but it would allow them to play as few or as many systems that they wanted and still feel rewarded for it.
As for making them play longer, my proposal would have them playing as long or longer as the current system down, my bet would be longer, as once a player “maxed out” all the rewards native to their favorite gameplay styles, in the current game they would have nothing to do but quit until new rewards were added, while in this new system, they could start working on rewards native to other gameplay styles. If they manage to earn ALL the rewards, then they would be in no different position than if they’d manage to win them all under the current mechanism, except that it would have taken them considerably longer because most of those rewards would have been earned under less efficient circumstances.
your design already exists, and you see its problems in both karma and gold implementations.
Not even remotely. Karma has two problems, the first being that it’s very easy to earn, the second that there is very little worth spending it on, so it just piles up. They should have a better idea of how game balance works at this point though, and adding a new currency, they can better balance these factors, allowing players to accumulate it at a more measured pace, and providing better outlets for it.
Gold is a complete fiasco, both because you can buy it with cash, and because you can buy items using gold, and then sell them for more gold, generating gold from gold (on the individual level, don’t try to economics bullkitten me about how gold acquired via these means is not “truly” “created”). The tokens I described could only be earned directly from ingame events, not from gems, not from other players, and could only be spent to NPCs at fixed prices, not fluctuating as supply and demand shifts.
Karma and gold may have their roles to play, but would not interact with the system I described in any way.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
we know nothing and moreover we haven’t even seen the raid in action to see what kind of content is has. Yet the anti-raid crowd is up in arms about something we know nearly nothing about because it has the “potential” to ruin the game.
If my assumptions as to the general nature of how raids will function end up being wrong, then I withdraw my objections, but honestly if my assumptions are wrong, then it will likely be the raid players crying out of the woodwork about their dashed expectations.
And the most puzzling thing ever is why in the world are people already dismissing raids as something they will never do without even trying it first.
Again, I could totally be wrong on that, if GW2 raids are nothing like raids in other games, if they can be something were I can form a casual pick-up group and be in and out within fifteen minutes while still making meaningful progress toward the optimum rewards, then ok, fine, I’ll enjoy it, but that’d be hard to pull off while still satisfying the raiders who want multi-hour, highly coordinated encounters.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Ohoni, you need to realize the main point/fun of the game is not appearance customization.
If that’s true for you, that’s fine, but it’s not true for everyone else. You can’t impose your own values of what is important and what is not onto other players.
Karma armor requires you to do the heart to unlock the merchant
dungeon armor requires you to do the dungeon
racial armor is limited to whatever race you choose.
personal story has unique items
seasonal events give specific gearsWould you agree that these are mostly low bars to cross? If the Raid Legendary Armor is an equally low bar, then I can deal with it, but if it is, as I believe we all assume, a higher bar of skill, time, and effort than any of the things you describe, then it is a much more significant problem than any of those things.
what you are asking for is a radical change that will make the game inferior in design and gameplay. The game was designed, from its inception, as using looks to encourage people to play longer/better/different.
The system I describe would not force people to play better, but nor is anyone served by a player playing better. It would not force them to play different systems if they didn’t want to, but it would allow them to play as few or as many systems that they wanted and still feel rewarded for it.
As for making them play longer, my proposal would have them playing as long or longer as the current system down, my bet would be longer, as once a player “maxed out” all the rewards native to their favorite gameplay styles, in the current game they would have nothing to do but quit until new rewards were added, while in this new system, they could start working on rewards native to other gameplay styles. If they manage to earn ALL the rewards, then they would be in no different position than if they’d manage to win them all under the current mechanism, except that it would have taken them considerably longer because most of those rewards would have been earned under less efficient circumstances.
your design already exists, and you see its problems in both karma and gold implementations.
Not even remotely. Karma has two problems, the first being that it’s very easy to earn, the second that there is very little worth spending it on, so it just piles up. They should have a better idea of how game balance works at this point though, and adding a new currency, they can better balance these factors, allowing players to accumulate it at a more measured pace, and providing better outlets for it.
Gold is a complete fiasco, both because you can buy it with cash, and because you can buy items using gold, and then sell them for more gold, generating gold from gold (on the individual level, don’t try to economics bullkitten me about how gold acquired via these means is not “truly” “created”). The tokens I described could only be earned directly from ingame events, not from gems, not from other players, and could only be spent to NPCs at fixed prices, not fluctuating as supply and demand shifts.
Karma and gold may have their roles to play, but would not interact with the system I described in any way.
Im not talking about what i enjoy, im talking about what their design premise was in creating this game. You have your own meta game thats about getting appearances, but thats your own personal meta. The game was designed around being a multiplayer role playing game. The look customization is placed in the game to enhance that concept, not vice versa.
Its not about what i want or feel, thats actually what the game is designed as. MMORPG.
look at their own wiki
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2
no where do they mention being able to get all looks you want as a main selling point, or core feature.
playing better actually does serve games. Games that are easily solved have low replayability. thats why they keep aiming for simple to start, hard to master. A game thats too easy, or doesnt reward better/varied play quickly becomes boring. Take tic tac toe for example.
any karma type system will always pile up, either after people get everything they want, or because they dont want that much. Your system, like karma allows you to get stuff doing any normal play, so it would build to excess just like karma, through accidental earning.
gold reselling and other problems, just mess up the costs, not the mechanics, and the mechanics is the real flaw of a gold based system. Even static price items show this. Inflation alters the value of items. Overstock of gold requires high new values if they introduce new content.
As to the bar being low, thats not really relevant, unless your argument is not that unique rewards are bad, but rather that unique rewards should have low bars.
The system you want is simply not feasible, too many points of failure.
good value judgements on resource earning across various playtypes
you would need extremely good pricing
excellent prediction of how players interact with the resource
excellent resource sinks
prevention of overstocking of resources
any failure at any point causes the whole system to be sub par.
not to mention the proper adjustment of said system would make the type of play you prefer have almost no value, since its constantly going on while pursuing other goals. Giving it a decent value would overflood the resource.
The system I describe would not force people to play better, but nor is anyone served by a player playing better. It would not force them to play different systems if they didn’t want to, but it would allow them to play as few or as many systems that they wanted and still feel rewarded for it.
I agree that every game mode should get their own legendary armor set (different looks on each set for each game mode however).
Your system however would allow people to get rewarded for simply existing. You do not draw a line on what is acceptable difficukty and what is not. You are insinuating that a silverwastes coffer farm should reward equal rewards to the highest difficulty levels of content that will ever come in-game which is ridiculous. There would be zero incentive to do anything because doing nothing already yields maximum results.
we know nothing and moreover we haven’t even seen the raid in action to see what kind of content is has. Yet the anti-raid crowd is up in arms about something we know nearly nothing about because it has the “potential” to ruin the game.
If my assumptions as to the general nature of how raids will function end up being wrong, then I withdraw my objections, but honestly if my assumptions are wrong, then it will likely be the raid players crying out of the woodwork about their dashed expectations.
Then you are just arguing based on assumptions, assumptions coming from how raids work in other games, so your arguments have no basis.
And the most puzzling thing ever is why in the world are people already dismissing raids as something they will never do without even trying it first.
Again, I could totally be wrong on that, if GW2 raids are nothing like raids in other games, if they can be something were I can form a casual pick-up group and be in and out within fifteen minutes while still making meaningful progress toward the optimum rewards, then ok, fine, I’ll enjoy it, but that’d be hard to pull off while still satisfying the raiders who want multi-hour, highly coordinated encounters.
Right. As if there is no content already in GW2 that cannot be done in 15 minutes. Oh wait it’s the opposite.
And content that can be done in 15 minutes cannot be called content. You can’t do Vinewrath in 15 minutes unless you abuse the system and come at the last minute. You can’t do anything in Dry Top in 15 minutes because in 15 minutes you won’t gather any Geodes worth mentioning. You can’t take a single tower or keep in WvW in 15 minutes, unless once again you cheat the system and go at the last minute when the objective is nearly taken already. You can’t even fight a lot of world bosses in 15 minutes, 15 minutes is just the pre-event, not to mention the time you have to wait for the event to start. Even a PVP match can take more than 15 minutes if you combine the time to find a match and the actual match together. Even if you go for a gathering run to get ori or ancient wood it might take you more than 15 minutes.
So what can be done in 15 minutes? Running the fastest dungeon paths and random events around the world. How exciting.
From what you said I hope you don’t enjoy it. Because from what you said you don’t enjoy 90% of Guild Wars 2, why are you still playing?
Why would you make raids require certain gear, like ttoughness or healing gear? isn’t it supposed to be about skill not gear? what is this? i prefer to play my profession with 1 set of armor, now i’m supposed to get 2 or 3 sets just for a raid? how stupid is that…. Seriously getting 1 set of ascended armor for all armor classes was idiotic enough already.
“oh but you can change stats on ascended gear now” yeah if i use a kittenton of my currency that i value quite high, please don’t do raids where certain gear is required it makes for a poor challenge and poor gameplay, and then smaller guilds will have to sit and wait around for that “tanky” guardian or that “healing ele” that you say you don’t want us to, this is enforcing certain builds and gear sets for bosses and that’s just bad in so many ways,
What will small guilds do? oh you are 10 people, but non of you are in Soldiers gear so you’re kittened! haha! is that what it is?.
But they’ll also have access to all the fancy things from all the other game modes, so they don’t lose anything. They get all their fancy stuff PLUS other fancy stuff. All they would be “losing” is the right to lord their fancy stuff over people who don’t have it, and sorry if I can’t shed a tear over that. If those people have to be sad, then I’m perfectly content with them being sad, because their happiness can only come at the expense of others.
But the fancy stuff isn’t as fancy if any goon with enough gold or enough real money can get them. So they’ll lose quite a lot.
Luckily though, “those people” don’t have to be sad, cause “those people” are getting exactly what they want. They’re probably quite happy. You on the other hand, seem less happy. But I’m perfectly content with you being sad, because you are in the minority and your happiness can only come at the expense of others.
I’m not saying that acquiring Legendary Armor should become an easy or fast task, just that it should not be restricted to a single role, or type of role.
But considering raids, fractals and PvP are the only difficult content in GW2, aqquiring legendary armor would by definition be easy if it’s not locked behind raids, fractals and/or PvP.
To make something hard to get, it has to be locked behind hard content.
And I’m not saying I’m against casual PvEers getting legendary armors. I’m just saying that they should get a different type of legendary armor. It will still be legendary, but it will not be the legendary RAID armor, which should be exclusive to raids.
That’s really no different than saying that everyone can become a Doctor or a Lawyer. It’s technically possible, but still unlikely.
Except not everyone can become a doctor or lawyer. Some people simply don’t have the learning capacity or the money to get a degree as a doctor or lawyer.
The same thing isn’t true for raiding. Anyone with fingers and eyes and at least a tiny bit of intelligence will be able to learn the raids and eventually beat them. Some might take longer to beat the raids than others, but literally anyone who plays GW2 can literally do them and get their legendary raid armor.
Ok, I’m going to explain how the world works.
Snip long rant about how I’m supposedly acting as if the game owes me exclusive rewards for being good at it.
I never said that the game “owes” me anything. YOU’RE the one acting like the game owes you all the shinies. YOU’RE the one acting entitled, saying all the shinies should be available to you even if you don’t want to do raids/pvp/fractals/whatever.
I’m simply saying that exclusive rewards make the game better. It incentivizes people to play more, try different game-modes, get better at the game and get those shiny rewards that shows you’re the best.
Exclusive rewards make a game better, not worse (at least for the vast majority of people).
The skin should not be there as a mark of achievement.
And why shouldn’t it be? That’s the way it has always been. Not just in GW2, but in the vast majority of both single- and multiplayer games. It has been that way since the dawn of time, even before "achievements’ were a thing.
And it works. It incentivizes people to play the game, play the content and get better, more so than any “achievement badge” ever would (especially in GW2, where the “achievements” are pretty meaningless).
That is entirely your subjective experience. To someone else who wants that reward but does not at all enjoy the content to which it is locked, “working hard to become good” would be a form of torture. If you want to lock something up like that as a personal goal, then that’s fine, but don’t try to force it onto others.
Not just my subjective experience, but that of many others too. In fact I’d say the majority of gamers feel the way I feel. People like you are in the minority.
And stop with the “forced” nonsense. You’re not forced to do anything. You can perfectly ignore raids if you want. You don’t have to do raids to enjoy the rest of the game.
If you feel that it makes things more rewarding to have a goal like that, then you can always set it yourself.
Which is not nearly as fun as having a tangible in-game goal that will give you an exclusive reward to show for it once you’ve beat it.
I’m not paying Anet 50 euro so I can set my own imaginary goals that wont give me any rewards for completing them.
Because you said, and I quote: "A replica is not the same thing as the real thing. This has already been debunked by another poster. "
So a replica “yellow jersey” might not be the “real thing,” but it is indistinguishable from the real thing, which is exactly like what a skin is. So all we’re asking is the ability to earn an indistinguishable replica of the desired prize, and you seem to agree that this is ok.
sigh This has already been debunked by another person, but I’ll debunk it again.
Would I be allowed to wear the indistinguishable replica of the yellow shirt as a participant in the Tour de France race? Why not?
The answer to that question should give you a clue why I’m against homogenizing all the rewards in GW2 and making everything available everywhere.
Yes, and the game went on fine without those people because they were loud but few in number.
LMAO! Yeah no, they were not loud and DEFINITELY NOT few in number. Over 2 million people have bought Guild Wars 2 at launch. Only 460 thousand people are still playing. That means 75% of all the people who bought the game at launch have quit playing the game.
Over the course of the last 3 years, GW2 has sold an additional 3 million copies, yet the active playerbase has barely grown since August 2013.
Clearly, GW2 is not capable of keeping their players. This is in large because of the lack of endgame content.
Over those 3 years, many players have voiced concerns over the state of GW2. The lack of endgame content, the lack of raids and the lack of expansions were concerns that have been voiced by many people many times over. This is why we’re getting an expansion, this is why we’re getting raids.
Please, next time, use your brains or do a little research before you say nonsense like that.
If the players who “stormed off” due to GW2’s lack of raids were actually of any concern to ANet, you can bet that they wouldn’t have waited three years to try and correct the issue. If they were really concerned about raiders fleeing the game in significant numbers then there would have been a raid announced by the first Wintersday.
You’re delusional. You can think what you want but the numbers don’t lie. Clearly Anet was making enough of a profit that the lack of raids was of no immediate concern to them, but they are smart enough to realize that if they want GW2 to grow beyond its small niche fanbase that is has now, things have to change.
They know it’s a selling point with a certain market, and three years in they seem to be secure enough in their position to try and have their Limburger cakes and eat them too, and we’ll see how that’ll work out for them, but it’s a real gamble, and I don’t think they have any chance of picking up as many characters as they could stand to lose if they mess it up.
How is adding more diverse content to the game a gamble? That doesn’t make any sense. The worst-case scenario would be that people don’t like the raids in GW2, which means people won’t play them, which means Anet will drop the raids and not develop more raids in the future. That is the absolute worst-case scenario, which would be kinda bad for Anet, but nothing horrible.
That said, I’m confident that raids in GW2 will be a huge success.
The reason Wildstar failed has nothing, absolutely NOTHING to do with the fact that it was focused on raiding.
Suuuuuure.
It’s true. But what would I know? It’s not like I played Wildstar since the beta and talked to lots of other Wildstar players… o wait, I have!
But hey, don’t take my word for it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2CF5uaHTDg
Yes they should. Just as the 10% playing PvP should be entitled to rewards that the other 90% who don’t play PvP can’t have. Or the 10% playing WvW. Or the 10% doing fractals.
Nope, nope, and nope.
Yep, yep and yep.
Exclusive rewards are always unfair.
Nope, they aren’t.
What if people like the open world PvE reward better than the raid exclusive rewards?
Then they can play the open world PvE content.
What if they like the PvP better than the WvW?
Then they stick to PvP and work for the exclusive rewards in that.
What if two people can’t agree on which they like better, but the WvW guy likes the PvP exclusives and the PvP guy likes the WvW exclusives?
Then they have to decide which is more important to them: playing the game-mode they like or getting the exclusive skin.
It’s literally IMPOSSIBLE to balance exclusive rewards across multiple types of content, much more difficult than you guys have claimed my token-balancing system would be.
No it’s not impossible. And your “token-balancing system” would be boring and kitten. It would also be impossible to balance and it would promote mindless grinding even more than the current system does.
You can’t impose your own values of what is important and what is not onto other players.
Maybe you should listen to your own advice. Right now you’re just a pot calling the kettle black.
(edited by LucosTheDutch.4819)
So keep that in mind. The game does not “owe” you great rewards for great accomplishments because completing those “accomplishments” does not actually accomplish anything. Any reward you get is a gift, not a payment for services rendered. If they choose to gift you with fancy things that you enjoy, then that’s all well and good, but if they choose to also gift people that you view as being less skilled than yourself, well that’s none of your business.
A reward is a gift you get after accomplishing something. Don’t twist it.
And a reward is generally measured by comparison between players. It’s a mixture of intrisic value and accomplishment value.
Of course you could say that you totally don’t care about the accomplishment and say the intrinsic value is the only thing that counts, but as you said yourself:
If that’s true for you, that’s fine, but it’s not true for everyone else. You can’t impose your own values of what is important and what is not onto other players.
I mean this thread obviously shows that there’s more than one set of values is all.
The system I describe would not force people to play better, but nor is anyone served by a player playing better. It would not force them to play different systems if they didn’t want to, but it would allow them to play as few or as many systems that they wanted and still feel rewarded for it.
Most games “force” variety for a better pacing of entertainment, and “force” to become better at the game to give a sense of accomplishment.
There’s many ways to “bribe” players into these ways, but is no different than being bribed/manipulated to play longer.
You could even say that all game are forcing players to do things they don’t want to do. Like forcing you to go back to a merchant when your inventory is full or going to a repair anvil when your armor is broken. These things might seem completely trivial from a player’s eyes, but they are there to break up the stream of constant battle. (So yes even the repair anvil in its current state actually has a function)
I’m not sure how different kind of content fits in that prospect, but adding variety in both scenery and reward mechanisms definitely adds more to the game than merely allowing players to do same old content that they love doing.
It’s not that players shouldn’t be rewarded for something they love doing, but that it’s better for the attentionspan of players to not be stuck doing the same thing. It can be quite relaxing to keep grinding because you sit back and get in this kind of trance of farming (personally I start falling asleep when this happens) and that’s fine.
But it needs to be in moderation to be remotely healthy. The same way it’s healthy for the players to not live on the idea that they get what they want whatever they do.
Spoiling the players with something they deem fun will have a negative effect in the long run, turning the game into an addiction.
“It isn’t working!” CL4P-TP
Ingame Name: Guardian Erik
Ingame Name: Guardian Erik
Im not talking about what i enjoy, im talking about what their design premise was in creating this game. You have your own meta game thats about getting appearances, but thats your own personal meta. The game was designed around being a multiplayer role playing game. The look customization is placed in the game to enhance that concept, not vice versa.
I don’t exactly dispute that, but I think it’s fair to say that the character customization element is a very strong component of the game, otherwise why would people even complain about their precious unique skins falling into the hands of the grubby unwashed masses? Nothing I’ve talked about does anything to undermine the MMORPG core gameplay, it just benefits the character customization sub-element.
playing better actually does serve games. Games that are easily solved have low replayability. thats why they keep aiming for simple to start, hard to master. A game thats too easy, or doesnt reward better/varied play quickly becomes boring. Take tic tac toe for example.
In an abstract sense that seems true, but related to GW2 I don’t see how it applies. A player that is better at various aspects of the game does not add value to the product. A player who is enjoying the task he’s on, even if it does not stress him to improve himself, is of equal value. There should be challenge available, and those that seek it should be able to find it, but there is no benefit to pressuring that challenge onto people who do not look for it, by only making their favorite rewards available behind that learning curve. I am a far better GW2 player today than I was three years ago, but it did not come as a result of slamming my head against brick walls until one of us broke, it came by playing content that was well within my comfort zone, repeatedly, and each time improving slightly to make my play more efficient. I improved because it felt better for me to have improved over the last time I played, not because to do otherwise would leave me with nothing.
I think tic-tac-toe is a good example of what not to do, because it is a very simple game with very little potential to be anything more. There are only nine moves you can make at any given time, less each round, and few of those at any given time are actually of any value. I do not think the game should be so simple. But I think that a well crafted game presents a player with many options to build difficulty for himself, many ways to challenge himself, and then allow the player to find those challenges that he seeks, but ignore challenges that don’t interest him.
any karma type system will always pile up, either after people get everything they want, or because they dont want that much. Your system, like karma allows you to get stuff doing any normal play, so it would build to excess just like karma, through accidental earning.
Eventually, perhaps, if they do not continue to add worthwhile items as they go. The way I envision the system though, even if you sought out the most efficient methods of earning anything, it would still take you years to acquire every item currently in the game that would be available to this system. Of course, if you already have most of the items currently in the game via other means then you would have a head start.
Perhaps to limit devaluation, whenever they add an entirely new tier, like for each paid expansion, they would add a new tier of token, and while you could convert old tokens up to the new, it would be at a significantly lossy rate. In that way, say you did have an overly inflated amount of “HoT tokens” by the time the next expansion rolled around. You could either spend what you had on “pre new thing” items, or you could convert them into the new type of tokens that could buy the new stuff, but at a rate of 100:1, or 1000:1, or whatever seems reasonable based on the standard amount in circulation at the time.
Meanwhile, the methods of acquiring rewards would update so that everything now drops the new kind of token, so continuing to do activities would continue to reward the same amount relative to the current content as they used to relative to the HoT content. Does that make sense?
But I think the primary hedge would be to just be careful about giving them out in the first place. They have a better idea of how their currencies work at this point, and I think they could do a better job of deciding which content is worthy of the tokens, and how much. I do not think that you should be able to get them from all events, just some of the more complex ones, to limit “press 1 and afk” farming, while still allowing low-skill players to participate.
As to the bar being low, thats not really relevant, unless your argument is not that unique rewards are bad, but rather that unique rewards should have low bars.
I believe that when the bar is low enough, unique rewards are not a problem because they do not present a serious barrier. If you have to go over a bar that is six inches off the ground, then most people would be fine. If the bar is six feet off the ground, most people would struggle, and avoiding that struggle is the point. I have no interest in semantic arguments over “unique items must always be bad,” they are only bad in the specific cases in which they are bad, no more, no less.
So if a unique item would cause me to go out of my way for a very brief amount of time, it would be a minor annoyance, but a livable one, and there are obviously benefits to that level of variety. If, on the other hand, the unique item requires a significant investment of time to pursue, a significant amount of time spent doing something unpleasant rather than something that brings joy to my life, then that is a far more significant penalty, and not one that I can respect.
The system you want is simply not feasible, too many points of failure.
good value judgements on resource earning across various playtypes
you would need extremely good pricing
excellent prediction of how players interact with the resource
excellent resource sinks
prevention of overstocking of resourcesany failure at any point causes the whole system to be sub par.
The thing is though, ALL of those considerations apply to the current system as well. If any of those things is wrong about Dungeons, for example, then players either make way too many tokens or way too few, and dungeon armor either becomes junk status or crazy impossible to earn. All my system does is unify these systems, which does mean that a failure in one of them could ripple out to the others, but so long as they have good metrics and a steady hand on the tiller, they would notice if one type of content was seeing a massive unlikely increase in participation, or a major outflow of rewards, and could quickly patch in at least a “quit that” effect, until they could figure out why and implement a long term solution.
Don’t talk about this as if it’s some risk I’m adding to the game, these things can and have happened several times in the game’s past.
not to mention the proper adjustment of said system would make the type of play you prefer have almost no value, since its constantly going on while pursuing other goals. Giving it a decent value would overflood the resource.
What if the rewards from open world content, the exceptional rewards I’m talking about, where died to daily or weekly quotas? You could earn these rewards, but only a certain amount per day, a reasonable, but not unreasonable amount. That way the amount you could earn after a reasonable amount of play time could be comparable to other activities, without allowing hardcore farmers to gorge themselves.
In the end though I don’t see why it would be terribly out of balance. Let’s say you could only get the World Boss Train “prime” rewards once a day, as is the case now, how would farming each of those be any more abusive than clearing an equivalent number of dungeon paths each day? How would repeating that seven days a week be more abusive than clearing a raid once per week, assuming that they were all balanced against those timetables?
I agree that every game mode should get their own legendary armor set (different looks on each set for each game mode however).
Your system however would allow people to get rewarded for simply existing. You do not draw a line on what is acceptable difficukty and what is not. You are insinuating that a silverwastes coffer farm should reward equal rewards to the highest difficulty levels of content that will ever come in-game which is ridiculous. There would be zero incentive to do anything because doing nothing already yields maximum results.
Well, we’re talking in a lot of abstracts, and I’m very flexible on the actual details (if not the core motivations), but I’ve repeatedly said that I do not believe coffer farming is a valid reward mechanism. If it were up to me, they would shift the priorities in Silverwastes a bit, so that chest farming was only worth doing if you are also actively pushing the event chains, and even then probably not quite as rewarding as it can be now. I believe that SW should be faster paced than it currently is, but should require actual content participation to earn significant rewards.
If I were going to tie SW into my token system, it would likely involve 1. Having to participate in a certain number of fort defense events prior to the Breech (this helps to make sure you didn’t just join into the map at the last second, and were not AFK most of the time), 2. Killing one Breech boss would give you a small number of tokens, similar to what a raid/dungeon mini-boss might offer (but only one, to prevent people trying to tag as many bosses as possible), 3. killing the Vinewrath would then offer a more significant token drop, not as much as a raid boss, assuming that this whole process takes less time, but the bulk of what could be earned here.
Nothing else on that map would reward “Tokens,” and you could repeat this a certain number of times per day, maybe just once, maybe several, whatever is deemed “balanced” with other activities. The idea would be that if all you want to do is SW, then that’s all you’d have to do, and it would be equivalent in reward to Dungeoning or Raiding for the same amount of time, and facing the same sorts of lockouts.
Since dungeons have individual lock-outs, perhaps those on things like SW could behave similarly, either forcing you to farm a different map after your “daily Vinewrath,” or more liberally, forcing you to fight a different breechboss and VW-miniboss each attempt, so a max of three per day for max credit.
And of course this would apply to other maps, with different maps having a different set of rules, clearly spelled out to the player, and different potential gains per hour.
Then you are just arguing based on assumptions, assumptions coming from how raids work in other games, so your arguments have no basis.
No, they are, as you said, based on assumptions. That is the basis. I think it’s reasonable to assume that if GW2 raids bare no relation to previous raids, then they would not call them that. It’d almost (but not quite) be false advertising. If my assumptions here prove false, then my argument proves false, and no harm done, because ANet knows the truth of it and obviously would never act on my assumptions if they knew they were wrong. If my assumptions prove accurate though, and even most of you seem to think that they would be (if not what should be done about that), then we’re getting out ahead of it, and thinking up solutions well before the problem actually gets here.
If “wait until we launch, then we can start worrying about what to do if something goes wrong” were a more popular philosophy, we’d have a lot more catastrophes in the world.
And content that can be done in 15 minutes cannot be called content. You can’t do Vinewrath in 15 minutes unless you abuse the system and come at the last minute. You can’t do anything in Dry Top in 15 minutes because in 15 minutes you won’t gather any Geodes worth mentioning.
Both true. Personally I’ve be willing to spend a bit more time in those maps, 30-40 minutes perhaps, but I do think they run longer than they should. Drytop, for example, could be on an half-hour cycle, not hourly, with less repetition of events.
You can’t take a single tower or keep in WvW in 15 minutes, unless once again you cheat the system and go at the last minute when the objective is nearly taken already.
I haven’t done a lot of “core” WvW lately, but I’ve done some EotM and you can take forts just fine in 15 minutes, several of them.
You can’t even fight a lot of world bosses in 15 minutes, 15 minutes is just the pre-event, not to mention the time you have to wait for the event to start.
Yeah, and a lot of those can stand to be tightened up too. Claw of Jormag, for example, tends to outstay its welcome. The various “wall” phases should be shorter and perhaps less frequent. And in cases like Teq and Wurm, they would ideally have better map switching and matchmaking mechanisms than they do, so that you could just show up at a map a minute or two before the boss, alongside a full map of likeminded players, and get right to it, rather than having to taxi in or wait long periods of time beforehand.
And I don’t mean that you have to only play for 15 minutes and then must leave, just that the event should not lock you in for more than 15 minutes between reward cycles. You should be able to play one 15 minute round of activity, and then move on to something else without losing pace, or stick around and do another cycle as many times as you like. This is in opposition to the content where if you play hard for 15 minutes and then bail, you end up with practically nothing to show for it because the “real” rewards only come after 45 minutes or more.
I’m not saying that everyone has to do 15 minute activities, or that all activities have to take 15 minutes, I’m just saying that there should be 15 minute options to progress towards you goals (not as much as you could in 45 minutes or 90 minutes, obviously), fifteen minute tasks within that reward territory. I’m not saying that raids should only take 15 minutes, and obviously expect longer, but I’m saying that if they do take significantly longer than 15 minutes, then they are not content that I particularly want to do, and therefore I will resent any attempt to make them the only way to earn rewards that I seek. If people want to run much longer-form content then that doesn’t bother me in the slightest, that’s their business, so long as I’m able to opt out of it without penalty. If I feel compelled to engage with it, then I can’t remain neutral on it.
I hope you also understand that the “15 minute” thing is a more general guideline, obviously a speedy team might be able to get a little under that, and 20-30 minutes wouldn’t be awful, but it’s in opposition to the idea of things like “one hour if you really have it down, two or three hours if you’re still working on it.”
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
No, they are, as you said, based on assumptions. That is the basis. I think it’s reasonable to assume that if GW2 raids bare no relation to previous raids, then they would not call them that. It’d almost (but not quite) be false advertising. If my assumptions here prove false, then my argument proves false, and no harm done, because ANet knows the truth of it and obviously would never act on my assumptions if they knew they were wrong. If my assumptions prove accurate though, and even most of you seem to think that they would be (if not what should be done about that), then we’re getting out ahead of it, and thinking up solutions well before the problem actually gets here.
That’s assuming there actually is a problem here.
And content that can be done in 15 minutes cannot be called content. You can’t do Vinewrath in 15 minutes unless you abuse the system and come at the last minute. You can’t do anything in Dry Top in 15 minutes because in 15 minutes you won’t gather any Geodes worth mentioning.
Both true. Personally I’ve be willing to spend a bit more time in those maps, 30-40 minutes perhaps, but I do think they run longer than they should. Drytop, for example, could be on an half-hour cycle, not hourly, with less repetition of events.
If the players on both maps take the time to play then you can do loads of events in very little time, it’s the afkers who exploit the system that make both zones feel like they run longer than they should.
You can’t take a single tower or keep in WvW in 15 minutes, unless once again you cheat the system and go at the last minute when the objective is nearly taken already.
I haven’t done a lot of “core” WvW lately, but I’ve done some EotM and you can take forts just fine in 15 minutes, several of them.
EotM isn’t content, running around pressing 1 in a big blob isn’t content. It just exist to earn karma, gold and level up.
You can’t even fight a lot of world bosses in 15 minutes, 15 minutes is just the pre-event, not to mention the time you have to wait for the event to start.
Yeah, and a lot of those can stand to be tightened up too. Claw of Jormag, for example, tends to outstay its welcome. The various “wall” phases should be shorter and perhaps less frequent. And in cases like Teq and Wurm, they would ideally have better map switching and matchmaking mechanisms than they do, so that you could just show up at a map a minute or two before the boss, alongside a full map of likeminded players, and get right to it, rather than having to taxi in or wait long periods of time beforehand.
Sure some world bosses could use a bit of a reduction in their time requirements OR they could the time spent on them more exciting instead. I’d take the second solution over the first.
And I don’t mean that you have to only play for 15 minutes and then must leave, just that the event should not lock you in for more than 15 minutes between reward cycles. You should be able to play one 15 minute round of activity, and then move on to something else without losing pace, or stick around and do another cycle as many times as you like. This is in opposition to the content where if you play hard for 15 minutes and then bail, you end up with practically nothing to show for it because the “real” rewards only come after 45 minutes or more.
15-minute content isn’t content.
I’m not saying that everyone has to do 15 minute activities, or that all activities have to take 15 minutes, I’m just saying that there should be 15 minute options to progress towards you goals (not as much as you could in 45 minutes or 90 minutes, obviously), fifteen minute tasks within that reward territory.
15-minute content isn’t content.
I’m not saying that raids should only take 15 minutes, and obviously expect longer, but I’m saying that if they do take significantly longer than 15 minutes, then they are not content that I particularly want to do, and therefore I will resent any attempt to make them the only way to earn rewards that I seek. If people want to run much longer-form content then that doesn’t bother me in the slightest, that’s their business, so long as I’m able to opt out of it without penalty. If I feel compelled to engage with it, then I can’t remain neutral on it.
Then as I said you don’t enjoy 90% of Guild Wars 2. Why are you still here?
I hope you also understand that the “15 minute” thing is a more general guideline, obviously a speedy team might be able to get a little under that, and 20-30 minutes wouldn’t be awful, but it’s in opposition to the idea of things like “one hour if you really have it down, two or three hours if you’re still working on it.”
That’s exactly how content should work. 10-20 minutes if you are good and know the content, up to 4 hours if you aren’t. That’s when you can call content, content. I said once that all you want is rewards just handed to you. You said you don’t, but from this latest post of yours it appears that what you want is to be handed all the rewards in the game for doing nothing. You try to say it otherwise but that’s what you want, everything for doing nothing.
I’m probably speculating when it come to this but. How does raid balance gonna really works when it comes to professions?
Most boons target are limited to 5 people. So, with that you’ll have 2 guards for important survival boons, 2 warriors for damage modifier and boons (banner n might stacking), 2-3 eles for conjured weapons and might stacking perhaps.
3 Professions with 6 at least guaranteed spots out of 10men. The rest of 4 spots filled with engi, mesmer, rev, rangers, thiefs and dead last necro.
Engi and mesmer bring lots of utilities.
Rev and Ranger brings optional boons and damage modifier that probably can be replaced with food and utility consumable.
Thiefs is only needed when there is stealth.
Necro, all i can say is auch. Optional survival utility probably.Balancing is hard :/
Imo, raids should allow buffs to go to 10 man instead of 5. This will give a serious incentive to getting 1 of each class for the personal buffs they provide.
But the fancy stuff isn’t as fancy if any goon with enough gold or enough real money can get them. So they’ll lose quite a lot.
Well that’s very convenient though, because nobody is talking about a method by which gold or cash could be used to purchase anything new. All we’re talking about is methods of acquiring them that do NOT involve gold.
Luckily though, “those people” don’t have to be sad, cause “those people” are getting exactly what they want. They’re probably quite happy. You on the other hand, seem less happy. But I’m perfectly content with you being sad, because you are in the minority and your happiness can only come at the expense of others.
I sense that you’re trying to “turn my words around on me,” but it doesn’t actually work in this case, because my happiness doesn’t require the sadness of others. My happiness involves everyone getting the loot that they want, it involves everybody being happy, except for those people that can only take joy in the sadness of others, and there’s really no way to make them happy without making more people sad.
But considering raids, fractals and PvP are the only difficult content in GW2, aqquiring legendary armor would by definition be easy if it’s not locked behind raids, fractals and/or PvP.
No. It may not necessarily be challenging, but that doesn’t mean that it would be easy. It would still take a lot of time and effort, just not necessarily challenging effort. Building a mud brick wall across your yard is something anyone can do with enough time and some mud, that does not mean that it is “easy” work.
I’m just saying that they should get a different type of legendary armor. It will still be legendary, but it will not be the legendary RAID armor, which should be exclusive to raids.
Which would be great, until someone liked the raid skin better and didn’t want to raid, which I hope you’ll agree is practically inevitable. How about this. What if the non-raid version is the default, a cool looking skin, and the “raid” version is identical to it, except that every piece is emblazoned with “RAID” in big letters? I tend to think most non-raiders would be able to make due without that.
Except not everyone can become a doctor or lawyer. Some people simply don’t have the learning capacity or the money to get a degree as a doctor or lawyer.
The same thing isn’t true for raiding. Anyone with fingers and eyes and at least a tiny bit of intelligence will be able to learn the raids and eventually beat them. Some might take longer to beat the raids than others, but literally anyone who plays GW2 can literally do them and get their legendary raid armor.
You’re making assumptions too, and in this case I’m not sure that they are reasonable ones. That may have been true of raids in other games, the “watch the UI and click when they tell you to” games, but this is an action RPG, so I imagine that if they aim for “challenging content” then it will involve actual movement and reflexes. I doubt that it would be entirely outside of my capabilities, but I think it’s fair to say that it would be well outside the capabilities of at least some GW2 players, given that many things like Fractals and JPs already prove too much for them.
I’m simply saying that exclusive rewards make the game better. It incentivizes people to play more, try different game-modes, get better at the game and get those shiny rewards that shows you’re the best.
And again, as I’ve explained each of these points several times, “playing better” is an entirely personal thing that the game has no incentive to encourage; people play more when they are having fun and less when they are not, so givign them the best options for playing what they enjoy and the least pressure to play what they do not will led to them playing more; trying different modes is good, but “try other mode” rewards should be short and sweet, rewarding trying new things, rather than sticking with them for long periods of time; and “showing you’re the best” is not a positive quality that should be encouraged.
And it works. It incentivizes people to play the game, play the content and get better, more so than any “achievement badge” ever would (especially in GW2, where the “achievements” are pretty meaningless).
People play hard for achievements in X-Box games. I think if there’s any failure to the achievements in GW2 it’s that many of them are easy to achieve and few of them are actually hard. If it were as difficult to earn achievements as it is to earn any “skin” in the game, and people could show those achievements off, I don’t see why people would not care about having that achievement.
And stop with the “forced” nonsense. You’re not forced to do anything. You can perfectly ignore raids if you want. You don’t have to do raids to enjoy the rest of the game.
Stop trying to tell others what they should feel. If I feel forced, I feel forced, and there’s nothing you can say that would change that, all you have a choice about is whether to care or not, which you’ve already made clear.
Would I be allowed to wear the indistinguishable replica of the yellow shirt as a participant in the Tour de France race? Why not?
The answer to that question should give you a clue why I’m against homogenizing all the rewards in GW2 and making everything available everywhere.
No, but neither would you be allowed to even participate in the Tour (I’m assuming, you might be a good cyclist) as it’s an exclusionary event for the best. GW2 is not an exclusionary environment, it’s intended for players of all skill levels to participate and enjoy themselves. There is no place for a “yellow jersey” in GW2, we’re all in the peloton.
Only 460 thousand people are still playing. That means 75% of all the people who bought the game at launch have quit playing the game.
Where did you get that number? The only thing I found that was close was when they announced that they had 460K concurrent players in 2013, and that’s actually fairly high for an MMO, since most players play at different times and sometimes on different days. Note that the 460K concurrency was their highest recorded concurrency (at that time), and was about a year after the game launched, well after the initial “where my raids” wave wandered off.
They haven’t actually announced any “active player” or “concurrency” numbers since then, I assume it’s gone down, but I see no reason to believe it decreased more than one would expect.
How is adding more diverse content to the game a gamble? That doesn’t make any sense. The worst-case scenario would be that people don’t like the raids in GW2, which means people won’t play them, which means Anet will drop the raids and not develop more raids in the future. That is the absolute worst-case scenario, which would be kinda bad for Anet, but nothing horrible.
No, the worst case scenario is that, plus large numbers of the non-raiders becoming upset at raiders getting the best rewards, making them less interested in the game, and the community becoming soured by raid culture, and no longer being the warm community we’ve become used to. There are all sorts of potential negative impacts.
Then they have to decide which is more important to them: playing the game-mode they like or getting the exclusive skin.
Right, which is a problem, because either way they choose, they are having a less positive experience than they could be having if they did not have to choose.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
I don’t exactly dispute that, but I think it’s fair to say that the character customization element is a very strong component of the game, otherwise why would people even complain about their precious unique skins falling into the hands of the grubby unwashed masses? Nothing I’ve talked about does anything to undermine the MMORPG core gameplay, it just benefits the character customization sub-element.
You’re wrong, your idea DOES undermine the MMORPG core gameplay.
A roleplaying game isn’t just about the role of your character, but also the role of the items he/she acquires. Almost all MMOs are build in the premise of acquiring unique special items that have more meaning than just “they look nice”.
One of the most fun things in almost any MMO is killing a difficult boss, in the hope that he’ll drop his legendary greatsword and when he finally does, you’re excited because you have THE legendary greatsword of THE difficult boss, something almost nobody else in the game has.
When other players see you with THE legendary greatsword from THE difficult boss, they’ll be in awe. I’ve seen it happening in WoW. When we finally managed to beat The Lich King and it dropped Frostmourne. We decided to give it to the best paladin in our guild. After he equipped it, we went outside of the raid and we decided to celebrate in Stormwind. Everyone was in awe and lots of people bowed when they saw our guardian walking around with Frostmourne. It was one of the greatest experiences in I’ve ever had MMOs and I wasn’t even the person who got Frostmourne!
Stuff like that gives intrinsic value to a weapon of piece of armor beyond just cosmetics. Such a weapon like Frostmourne has lore, it has a story behind it, it has a story behind how it was obtained, a story experienced and shared by many guild members. Such a weapon will be iconic. Such a weapon will appear in MAN AT ARMS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5N6wQc6kbA8
The legendaries in GW2 as they are now have no such value, at all. I mean what is the story behind Sunrise? What is the lore behind it? What is the story behind obtaining it? Oh, there is none, other than “I grinded my kitten off” or “I bought it with my credit card”.
Good.
Even if it is RNG like Fractal skins that won’t bother me.
As long as it is some doable RNG (so not like 1/10000) it is fine. Then RNG can add to the game.. every time the rush of “will it drop now”. That effect go’s away when it’s a completely unreasonable drop-rate but with doable RNG it will be a pro.
RNG, in theory, should be higher for Raids. The reason being simply there won’t be as many people who do -and complete- them as to what we see in the open-world zergs. Where you have thousands upon thousands of players running around in the Silverwastes day in and day out, you’ll have a few thousand players beat the raid boss(es) every week.
Increasing the RNG on the ‘good’ items seems like it’d be a good deal. It keeps people motivated while getting their Legendary Armor sets going, or they can choose to sell the items to make some money from those that don’t participate in the Raid content.
Think Voltaic Spears, Bone Dragon Staff’s, Draconic Aegis, etc. from GW1. That’s kind of how I see it.
I am not sure what you mean with increase the RNG.. The drop rate can be higher, so it becomes a ‘lower’ RNG.
Let’s say you want the rarity of a pre-cursor and (as an example) let’s say the drop-rate now is 1/1000 but it drops from a lot of places, so it gets looted 1000 times a day. (This would then be your open world zerg example).
That means on average it will drop once per day with a 1/1000 drop-rate.
Now a specific raid-boss would (again as an example) only be done / looted 100 times a day. Then you can have a drop-rate of 1/100 (so a higher drop-rate / lower RNG).
The item will on average then still only drop once a per day.
So you have a more doable RNG where as a player you can work more specific towards an item, other than just grinding gold while the rarity of the items stays the same.
If the players on both maps take the time to play then you can do loads of events in very little time, it’s the afkers who exploit the system that make both zones feel like they run longer than they should.
And the system should not take them into account, they should not be able to slow anything down, nor should they be able to get reward without effort. Drytop, at least, is slow regardless of AFKers though, since it is on a fixed hourly schedule. All AFKers can do is reduce the reward payout, and ideally they would not even be able to do that.
EotM isn’t content, running around pressing 1 in a big blob isn’t content. It just exist to earn karma, gold and level up.
What little I played of it was more fun than any “core” WvW I did, although the new maps might change that.
Sure some world bosses could use a bit of a reduction in their time requirements OR they could the time spent on them more exciting instead. I’d take the second solution over the first.
Either would be an improvement, but I’d really prefer less time. If it’s less time then you can move on to other things, more of the same type of content if you prefer, but something else entirely if you don’t. The less time each activity takes, the more choice you have in how you break up your time. The longer each activity takes, the less choice you have. If Dry Top takes a full hour each time, and you only have two hours to play each day (which for most people is actually generous), then even wanting to attempt it is taking half you time, success or failure. Claw of Jormag, even with a fairly good map (which you have little control over), will take around 20-30 minutes (I’ve seen less, but it’s rare). Say you want to queue up for a round or two of PvP in there, or try to get some WvW going, it all takes time, and the faster you can get in, have fun, and have the option to leave, the more opportunity for fun there is within a limited amount of time.
15-minute content isn’t content.
That doesn’t even make sense. Even most of the longer term content in the game can be broken up into fifteen minute chunks. No Dry Top event itself runs more than ten minutes, and most less than five, it’s just the entire chain of them that takes an hour. Most dungeons involve encounters that take less than fifteen minutes each, it’s just you have to do them all concurrently to get the chest at the end. As I said, if you prefer to do long chains of things to get rewards, that’s fine, but there should be shorter options available for those that want them, without skipping the ultimate rewards.
Then as I said you don’t enjoy 90% of Guild Wars 2. Why are you still here?
I enjoy what I enjoy.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
15-minute content isn’t content.
15-minute content is content.
When other players see you with THE legendary greatsword from THE difficult boss, they’ll be in awe. I’ve seen it happening in WoW. When we finally managed to beat The Lich King and it dropped Frostmourne. We decided to give it to the best paladin in our guild. After he equipped it, we went outside of the raid and we decided to celebrate in Stormwind. Everyone was in awe and lots of people bowed when they saw our guardian walking around with Frostmourne. It was one of the greatest experiences in I’ve ever had MMOs and I wasn’t even the person who got Frostmourne!
So far as I can tell, it’s impossible to own Frostmourne.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
All AFKers can do is reduce the reward payout, and ideally they would not even be able to do that.
In an actually fast map/group your time will be spent doing loads of events and not waiting around.
EotM isn’t content, running around pressing 1 in a big blob isn’t content. It just exist to earn karma, gold and level up.
What little I played of it was more fun than any “core” WvW I did, although the new maps might change that.
If you find fun moving around in blobs and mashing 1 as fast as you can then maybe. But that’s hardly an engaging activity so it’s not actual content.
Either would be an improvement, but I’d really prefer less time.
Why? If the fight is engaging enough you won’t “need” to go and find something else to do with your time, the fight is right there. And if the fight is more engaging and fun they could add better rewards in it too (for the time it takes to finish it). That’s how the raids are supposed to work, more engaging, more fun, more challenging, more rewards.
15-minute content isn’t content.
That doesn’t even make sense.
Oh it does make perfect sense, if you can’t see it then it’s not my problem. All you are asking for is for small 15-minute gameplay periods to progress and allow you to get any rewards in the game. That’s what I’d call an entitled person who wants everything handed to them. Won’t happen
Then as I said you don’t enjoy 90% of Guild Wars 2. Why are you still here?
I enjoy what I enjoy.
So you enjoy nearly nothing in Guild Wars 2 yet you post all the time on how they should change a specific part of the game to suit your selfish needs.
Why are you still here?
15-minute content isn’t content.
15-minute content is content.
No it’s not.
15-minute content isn’t content.
15-minute content is content.
No it’s not.
Yes it is.
Luckily though, “those people” don’t have to be sad, cause “those people” are getting exactly what they want. They’re probably quite happy. You on the other hand, seem less happy. But I’m perfectly content with you being sad, because you are in the minority and your happiness can only come at the expense of others.
I sense that you’re trying to “turn my words around on me,” but it doesn’t actually work in this case, because my happiness doesn’t require the sadness of others. My happiness involves everyone getting the loot that they want, it involves everybody being happy, except for those people that can only take joy in the sadness of others, and there’s really no way to make them happy without making more people sad.
Getting the loot does not automatically mean being happy. You should come off that high horse of yours. We’re talking about a game and the game being fun.
And just because you are sad doesn’t mean anything for what other people think. Speak for yourself and stop acting snobby. Pride isn’t the same as bullying.
“It isn’t working!” CL4P-TP
Ingame Name: Guardian Erik
Ingame Name: Guardian Erik
I sense that you’re trying to “turn my words around on me,” but it doesn’t actually work in this case, because my happiness doesn’t require the sadness of others.
Yes it does. Your happiness would make me and lots of other players sad. Well, “sad” maybe isn’t the right word here, bored would be more accurate. Not feeling encouraged to play the game and get better at it and eventually quitting the game would be the result.
My happiness involves everyone getting the loot that they want, it involves everybody being happy, except for those people that can only take joy in the sadness of others, and there’s really no way to make them happy without making more people sad.
LMAO nice straw-man mate. Nice way of misrepresenting my side of the argument. Good job man.
No. It may not necessarily be challenging, but that doesn’t mean that it would be easy. It would still take a lot of time and effort, just not necessarily challenging effort. Building a mud brick wall across your yard is something anyone can do with enough time and some mud, that does not mean that it is “easy” work.
There are only 2 ways of making rewards hard to get:
1) Putting it behind difficult challenging content.
2) Putting it behind a long, tiresome and mind-numbing grind.
Your “ideal” system would turn everything in the 2nd option. I don’t see much fun in that. Building a mud brick wall across my yard is not something I enjoy doing. In fact I’d be amazed is there is ANYONE who’d enjoy doing that.
Which would be great, until someone liked the raid skin better and didn’t want to raid, which I hope you’ll agree is practically inevitable.
Sure, it will happen, but how often will it happen? I’m sure most people can live with the fact that they’ll never be able to get legendary raid armor if they never do raids. Most people will just suck it up, accept it and go for something different than the legendary raid armor. Most people are mature enough to realize that you can’t always have your cake and eat it too.
How about this. What if the non-raid version is the default, a cool looking skin, and the “raid” version is identical to it, except that every piece is emblazoned with “RAID” in big letters? I tend to think most non-raiders would be able to make due without that.
You’re not serious right? I don’t think it’s needed for me to point out how what you just said is absolutely ridiculous.
You’re making assumptions too, and in this case I’m not sure that they are reasonable ones. That may have been true of raids in other games, the “watch the UI and click when they tell you to” games, but this is an action RPG, so I imagine that if they aim for “challenging content” then it will involve actual movement and reflexes. I doubt that it would be entirely outside of my capabilities, but I think it’s fair to say that it would be well outside the capabilities of at least some GW2 players, given that many things like Fractals and JPs already prove too much for them.
Even if that’s true: so what? You can’t always have everything. You can’t always have your cake and eat it too.
I’m sure Anet will balance the raids in such a way that the vast majority of players will be able to beat them at some point after enough practice. Some will beat them faster than others, but I’m sure everyone will be able to beat them at some point. And if not, too bad. Not every Tour de France cyclist will wear that yellow shirt either. I’m sure they’ll survive and come to terms with it.
And again, as I’ve explained each of these points several times, “playing better” is an entirely personal thing that the game has no incentive to encourage.
And again, that is simply not true. Many areas of GW2 most definitely encourage people to play better (fractals, PvP, WvW and soon raids).
I think if there’s any failure to the achievements in GW2 it’s that many of them are easy to achieve and few of them are actually hard.
No, that’s actually the reason why achievements in GW2 are worthless.
If it were as difficult to earn achievements as it is to earn any “skin” in the game, and people could show those achievements off, I don’t see why people would not care about having that achievement.
True, that would definitely make achievements more fun and valuable. But getting an unique weapon or piece of armor that you can actually physically wear in-game will always be more fun and more valuable.
Stop trying to tell others what they should feel. If I feel forced, I feel forced, and there’s nothing you can say that would change that, all you have a choice about is whether to care or not, which you’ve already made clear.
You can feel all you want, but that doesn’t change the facts. The facts are that you aren’t forced to do anything.
Your feelz are not more important than the facts.
No, but neither would you be allowed to even participate in the Tour (I’m assuming, you might be a good cyclist) as it’s an exclusionary event for the best.
Irrelevant. Let’s assume that I am a professional cyclist. Would I be allowed to wear a replica yellow shirt during the race? Why not?
GW2 is not an exclusionary environment, it’s intended for players of all skill levels to participate and enjoy themselves. There is no place for a “yellow jersey” in GW2, we’re all in the peloton.
You’re right, GW2 is indeed intended for all players of all skill levels. That does not however mean that there is no place of a yellow jersey in GW2 and it most certainly does not mean we’re all in the peloton.
There already are “yellow jerseys” in GW2. They’re just not that many and most of them are not that interesting.
Adding more “yellow jerseys” to GW2 will make the game better, more fun and it will encourage more players to keep playing to get that “yellow jersey”.
“Yellow jerseys” that you can simply buy or get with little effort aren’t that interesting and won’t be an incentive for people to keep playing.
Where did you get that number? The only thing I found that was close was when they announced that they had 460K concurrent players in 2013, and that’s actually fairly high for an MMO, since most players play at different times and sometimes on different days. Note that the 460K concurrency was their highest recorded concurrency (at that time), and was about a year after the game launched, well after the initial “where my raids” wave wandered off.
I don’t think you understand what “concurrent” means in this context. It basically means active players.
And no, 460k is not that much. It’s not bad, but it could be a whole lot more, considering the game sold 2 million copies at launch and 3 million more copies in the years after.
No, the worst case scenario is that, plus large numbers of the non-raiders becoming upset at raiders getting the best rewards, making them less interested in the game, and the community becoming soured by raid culture, and no longer being the warm community we’ve become used to. There are all sorts of potential negative impacts.
If nobody is playing the raids then there won’t be a “raid culture”, so what you say doesn’t make any sense. For a “raid culture” to exist, there has to be a fair amount of people playing them. If a fair amount of people are playing them, it means raids are a success.
Right, which is a problem, because either way they choose, they are having a less positive experience than they could be having if they did not have to choose.
That’s not true. Getting everything you want will usually become very boring very quickly.
Most players DON’T want every shiny handed to them on a silver platter for simply doing what they like doing with little effort put into it, because that’s in boring. Most players DO want exclusive rewards and DON’T mind it if there are rewards in the game that they’ll personally never get their hands on.
Seriously, if you’d have it your way, everyone in GW2 would be hella bored. I’m sure even you would get bored after a while.
When other players see you with THE legendary greatsword from THE difficult boss, they’ll be in awe. I’ve seen it happening in WoW. When we finally managed to beat The Lich King and it dropped Frostmourne. We decided to give it to the best paladin in our guild. After he equipped it, we went outside of the raid and we decided to celebrate in Stormwind. Everyone was in awe and lots of people bowed when they saw our guardian walking around with Frostmourne. It was one of the greatest experiences in I’ve ever had MMOs and I wasn’t even the person who got Frostmourne!
So far as I can tell, it’s impossible to own Frostmourne.
You’ve been informed wrongly.
Besides, the point still stands. Such an experience as I described is one of the keystones of the MMORPG genre and one of the driving points that keep people playing them. It’s also the reason why many people have stopped playing GW2, because GW2 as it is now can’t really offer such an experience. The closest thing that GW2 has are fractal skins, but that’s obviously not quite the same as getting a unique named item with lore and a story behind it.
(edited by LucosTheDutch.4819)
Then as I said you don’t enjoy 90% of Guild Wars 2. Why are you still here?
I enjoy what I enjoy.
Yeah but clearly you’re not enjoying the majority of what GW2 has to offer, which makes one wonder if GW2 is the right game for you.
As I said earlier, maybe you should find another game that fits your desires. Second Life or IMVU seems to be more suited for what you are looking for. GW2 simply isn’t what you are looking for and never will be.
You’ve been informed wrongly.
.
Actually he’s been informed correctly.
Frostmourne has never been available as a drop from the Lich King on the official servers. The only way that could have happened is on a private server.
You’ve been informed wrongly.
.Actually he’s been informed correctly.
Frostmourne has never been available as a drop from the Lich King on the official servers. The only way that could have happened is on a private server.
I see. You’re right. It was just an example anyway. The point I made still stands though.
WoW has many extremely rare exclusive rewards, many of them being iconic weapons with a story and lore behind them. Getting such an item as a drop after beating a difficult raid boss is a joy, not just for the person who eventually gets the item but for the entire guild involved. Even for people outside of the guild it’s exciting to see someone with an incredibly rare weapon that you’ve never seen with your own eyes before.
You’ve been informed wrongly.
.Actually he’s been informed correctly.
Frostmourne has never been available as a drop from the Lich King on the official servers. The only way that could have happened is on a private server.
I see. You’re right. It was just an example anyway. The point I made still stands though.
WoW has many extremely rare exclusive rewards, many of them being iconic weapons with a story and lore behind them. Getting such an item as a drop after beating a difficult raid boss is a joy, not just for the person who eventually gets the item but for the entire guild involved. Even for people outside of the guild it’s exciting to see someone with an incredibly rare weapon that you’ve never seen with your own eyes before.
So that whole story about giving the sword to your guardian was untrue, but that doesn’t matter, because the POINT was the reactions of the people who all saw this (imaginary) sword that you worked so hard to get?
“entitled”: Ad Hominem fallacy condensed to a single word.
Even for people outside of the guild it’s exciting to see someone with an incredibly rare weapon that you’ve never seen with your own eyes before.
I wouldn’t know, because I’ve never felt this. I mean, don’t get me wrong, seeing the weapon is cool. I wouldn’t argue that (though even then, personal aesthetics would come into play, so I may in fact not care at all as you walk around showing the weapon off).
But I’ve never cared an iota about the person the item is attached to.
I guess the best way to put it is: I’m not looking at -you- in awe. I’m looking at the -weapon-, because theoretically it’s the first time I’ve seen the weapon, and theoretically it’s a weapon that aligns with my personal aesthetics.
As for a correction to your example, and to illustrate my own: your friend didn’t get Frostmourne, but they probably got Shadowmourne, because that is a possible high rarity drop when paladins, warriors, and DKs are in a raid.
Shadowmourne is an axe, though, which have never had aesthetics that I have cared for. So in your example, had your friend waltzed into town and declared his obtaining of Shadowmourne, or just been noticed or whatever, I would be the guy taking a quick look, going “meh” and just going about my business.
So I generally don’t “get” that whole deal.
When my guild killed the dragon Thorog in Lotro (a raid boss) we got his head as a trophy to decorate our guild hall. We got a lot of people from friendly/allied guilds to come and see it in all its glory.
And now that I said that, I DO hope the raid will have some exclusive trophies for the guild hall.
Even for people outside of the guild it’s exciting to see someone with an incredibly rare weapon that you’ve never seen with your own eyes before.
I wouldn’t know, because I’ve never felt this. I mean, don’t get me wrong, seeing the weapon is cool. I wouldn’t argue that (though even then, personal aesthetics would come into play, so I may in fact not care at all as you walk around showing the weapon off).
But I’ve never cared an iota about the person the item is attached to.
I guess the best way to put it is: I’m not looking at -you- in awe. I’m looking at the -weapon-, because theoretically it’s the first time I’ve seen the weapon, and theoretically it’s a weapon that aligns with my personal aesthetics.
As for a correction to your example, and to illustrate my own: your friend didn’t get Frostmourne, but they probably got Shadowmourne, because that is a possible high rarity drop when paladins, warriors, and DKs are in a raid.
Shadowmourne is an axe, though, which have never had aesthetics that I have cared for. So in your example, had your friend waltzed into town and declared his obtaining of Shadowmourne, or just been noticed or whatever, I would be the guy taking a quick look, going “meh” and just going about my business.
So I generally don’t “get” that whole deal.
Sure, you’re absolutely right. Still, it would be awesome to see someone with Shadowmourne, especially if he/she was among the first to obtain it.
I still remember seeing Sunrise for the first time in GW2 shortly after launch. That was quite cool. But now that everyone and their mother has Sunrise (including myself), it’s no longer cool at all. Especially because it’s so easy to obtain a Sunrise. It just takes a lot of grinding or a credit card.
Scarcity and locking weapons behind challenging content adds value to the weapon. More so if the weapon has some cool lore behind it.
Making weapons easy to obtain devalues it. Especially if you can obtain it by literally doing whatever you want, which is what Ohoni proposes. The weapon would have no value at all, other than it’s aesthetic value, which makes the weapon a whole lot less interesting. Obtaining it would no longer be fun, it wouldn’t even really be a reward, considering you’re guaranteed to obtain it after a given amount of time. It would really be nothing more than just a participation trophy.
I dunno about you, but personally I couldn’t care less about participation trophies. Obtaining them doesn’t feel as a reward to me.
Your derisive opinions of competitive style content aside, you have entered an environment where’s its present and its relative value is dictated by the game. I have yet to see anyone “laugh” at it and few people take major issue with it, laughing at it seems malicious. Would you walk into a CCG tournament and laugh at those players for putting effort in and competing just because you only like to collect the cards for their pictures?
I would laugh at anyone who took it so seriously that they would feel their seriousness entitled them to goaltend cool items away from the people just playing for fun.
I think that playing these games with a sense of competition is all fine and good until the point where it starts to get to people’s heads, where they start to think “I play this game super serious, and I play better than that guy, so I deserve to be given good stuff, and he deserves lesser stuff.”
I used the example of CCG’s specifically because they have a ton of exclusive rewards, Alternative Art cards, Tournament exclusive cards, special over-sized versions of cards, Decorative Sheet modes of cards, Mats, Bags,Dice etc.
Tournament rewards are there to force players to play to the best of their ability , they really want that item and this is the only way to get it or they have to defend their existing title.
You are against the concept of someone who is literally better (in the game/sport context) being rewarded more/exclusively for their progress and achievement?
OK it seems like you are against the concept of advancement and competition completely? Nearly no one is going to play a game where there are 5 million players and you’re just another brick in the wall, there’s nothing you can do to stand out or make yourself a somebody in the game. That’s not equality, it’s uniformity.
As a community players should always be striving to better themselves our society is designed around it and reward systems are designed around that. You can wallow in mediocrity if you want but dragging others down, removing the motivators to improve because YOU don’t want to is not acceptable. Waving “just a game” as free reign to do whatever doesn’t work either, games have structure, rules and victory/loss conditions.
(I’m sure you’re going to counter with “strawman” and say oh I’m perfectly willing to put in the effort in X gameplay, where x is more than likely open world generic content. That’s not equivalent though, if you spend 100 hours in the open world that still didn’t require you to put effort in or display any skills, you have not done anything new or shown improvement in any way you have remained stagnant and are expecting new rewards for it.)
[RoF] and [BL] guild leader
11x level 80’s 80+ Titles 2600+ skins , still a long way to go.
11x level 80’s 80+ Titles 2600+ skins , still a long way to go.
Scarcity and locking weapons behind challenging content adds value to the weapon. More so if the weapon has some cool lore behind it.
I disagree with the first part, but not the second. Lore is definitely an important facet in…pretty much every game, ever.
Making weapons easy to obtain devalues it. Especially if you can obtain it by literally doing whatever you want, which is what Ohoni proposes.
Again, I disagree. I’m not really going to get into this, though. I’ve already done this loop in a thread that Ohoni made that was deleted awhile back, and I don’t feel like doing it, again.
Suffice to say: My brain doesn’t fire its electrons in the same way as people who need something to be unique and rare for it to have value. Like, to a point where I really don’t understand the fascination.
I dunno about you, but personally I couldn’t care less about participation trophies. Obtaining them doesn’t feel as a reward to me.
I don’t like participation trophies, either. They’re just a physical reminder that you lost. And nobody likes to lose.
But I don’t agree that easy to get items are a participation trophy, much less that it’s even comparable.
You’ve been informed wrongly.
.Actually he’s been informed correctly.
Frostmourne has never been available as a drop from the Lich King on the official servers. The only way that could have happened is on a private server.
I see. You’re right. It was just an example anyway. The point I made still stands though.
WoW has many extremely rare exclusive rewards, many of them being iconic weapons with a story and lore behind them. Getting such an item as a drop after beating a difficult raid boss is a joy, not just for the person who eventually gets the item but for the entire guild involved. Even for people outside of the guild it’s exciting to see someone with an incredibly rare weapon that you’ve never seen with your own eyes before.
So that whole story about giving the sword to your guardian was untrue, but that doesn’t matter, because the POINT was the reactions of the people who all saw this (imaginary) sword that you worked so hard to get?
First of all, the story was not untrue. I simply misremembered which weapon it was that dropped.
Second, the point of my story wasn’t the reaction of the people outside of the guild. The point of the story was how we as a guild had a lot of fun trying to beat a difficult boss and eventually see a very rare weapon drop that (at that point) almost nobody else in the game had. It’s a sense of accomplishment for the entire guild. Even though only 1 person actually got to own the weapon, we as a guild felt rewarded because we all made it possible through teamwork.
So far, GW2 has never come close to giving me that same kind of experience (which is odd, considering how Anet praised GW2 as the MMO where teamwork supposedly is one of the keystones, yet teamwork is not nearly as much rewarded in GW2 as it is in WoW). If Ohoni would get his way, we’d never get that experience in GW2.
GW2 already isn’t a very rewarding MMO and with Ohoni’s proposal, it would be an even less rewarding experience.
When other players see you with THE legendary greatsword from THE difficult boss, they’ll be in awe. I’ve seen it happening in WoW. When we finally managed to beat The Lich King and it dropped Frostmourne. We decided to give it to the best paladin in our guild. After he equipped it, we went outside of the raid and we decided to celebrate in Stormwind. Everyone was in awe and lots of people bowed when they saw our guardian walking around with Frostmourne. It was one of the greatest experiences in I’ve ever had MMOs and I wasn’t even the person who got Frostmourne!
So far as I can tell, it’s impossible to own Frostmourne.
You’ve been informed wrongly.
Besides, the point still stands. Such an experience as I described is one of the keystones of the MMORPG genre and one of the driving points that keep people playing them. It’s also the reason why many people have stopped playing GW2, because GW2 as it is now can’t really offer such an experience. The closest thing that GW2 has are fractal skins, but that’s obviously not quite the same as getting a unique named item with lore and a story behind it.
Its shadowmourne that was obtained in ICC25hc, also you got less respect for having this than wielding the twin glaives of azzinoth during BC.
Its completely useless to debate this topic from here on out. The arguments are on the table now, what had to be said has been said. Anet took a stance, legendary gear in HoT means you beat specific difficult content. Deal with it. There are enough alternatives for gear and no one will bother pampering to entitlement issues.
(edited by Setz.9675)
Exclusive rewards are going to be in this game Ohoni , whether you like it or not, so if you don’t like it, just leave.
The difference this time is, the exclusive rewards will be skill gated for once….
For the past 3 years we have seen 99% time gated and grind gated rewards that some players like while others don’t.
There is nothing wrong with adding exclusive rewards behind skill gating (so long as its not a power creep).
I don’t care about your opinion on what skin is shinier compared to another, or what you value more. Your value of a skin is irrelevant to this game and community. This game sets the value… not you.
Look at it from anet’s point of view. What is good for business? attracting more new players and bringing back old players…. that is the overall goal for HoT…to get those numbers up…Current players aren’t going to quit… there is a lot of good stuff being added in HoT….raids are just 1 slice of the pie….
You seem to be upset with the fact a couple new rewards got skill gated.
Deal with it. This is not YOUR game, this is not YOUR decision.
It’s an MMORPG, there are going to be things everyone doesn’t like. You are the type of person that wants to be pleased 100% YOUR WAY.
That’s not happening. You have unrealistic expectations for an MMORPG.
95% of the rewards in this game are already easily accessible through a time/grind gate… with more constantly being added…
You seriously going to complain that 5% of the rewards are exclusively locked behind a skill gate now (PvP, raids, high end fracs, etc)….
Once again, we are blessed you are not in charge of directing this game (or any game for that matter)
GW2 already isn’t a very rewarding MMO and with Ohoni’s proposal, it would be an even less rewarding experience.
I believe the game is one of the least rewarding ones out there, even the worst korean grinders reward effort more than GW2 does. But I think the topic of “GW2 rewards” require a separate discussion to talk about them as a whole and not only about raids.
When other players see you with THE legendary greatsword from THE difficult boss, they’ll be in awe. I’ve seen it happening in WoW. When we finally managed to beat The Lich King and it dropped Frostmourne. We decided to give it to the best paladin in our guild. After he equipped it, we went outside of the raid and we decided to celebrate in Stormwind. Everyone was in awe and lots of people bowed when they saw our guardian walking around with Frostmourne. It was one of the greatest experiences in I’ve ever had MMOs and I wasn’t even the person who got Frostmourne!
So far as I can tell, it’s impossible to own Frostmourne.
You’ve been informed wrongly.
Besides, the point still stands. Such an experience as I described is one of the keystones of the MMORPG genre and one of the driving points that keep people playing them. It’s also the reason why many people have stopped playing GW2, because GW2 as it is now can’t really offer such an experience. The closest thing that GW2 has are fractal skins, but that’s obviously not quite the same as getting a unique named item with lore and a story behind it.
Its shadowmourne that was obtained in ICC25hc, also you got less respect for having this than wielding the twin glaives of azzinoth during BC.
Its completely useless to debate this topic from here on out. The arguments are on the table now, what had to be said has been said. Anet took a stance, legendary gear in HoT means you beat specific difficult content. Deal with it. There are enough alternatives for gear and no one will bother pampering to entitlement issues.
Amen brother.
No, I’m saying I don’t want the trophy at all. I couldn’t care less about any trophies. I do want the jersey though, so if you tell me that the trophy can only be purchased along with the trophy, then I say “kitten that, given me the jersey, you can keep your kitten trophy.”
You can’t logically comprehend the analogy it seems.
Let’s try something simple like golf.
You see golf has quite a few major tournaments (content). One of the majors is called the Masters (this is X type of content, say Raids for example). The reward for winning the Masters is an exclusive green jacket and trophy. No other major tournament rewards this Green Jacket and there are no trophies like it. So, if you want a green jacket, you have to win the masters (play that particular content)…..
The Masters would become a joke if some other golf tournament awarded the Green jacket…everyone would pick the easier tournament in order to achieve that Green Jacket… similarly, the exclusive rewards from Raiding would become a joke….
you say to add those exclusive rewards into equally challenging tasks…. guess what? there is no equivalent task to what a raid will be…. There is nothing in this game that is a 10 man group challenge that requires coordination and planning….Just like there isn’t a similar major tournament like The Masters. Sure theres other majors, but all have different courses, locations, pars, weather conditions, etc… different types of players, different rewards etc etc…
All in all, you are NOT entitled to the green jacket (the legendary armor from raids).
If you want reward, you go and get it. That’s the way it is because that’s the way the rules and rewards have been set by anet.
You don’t whine and complain to the administrators of the golf tournament (Anet in this case) that you don’t find this golf course fun, so you wish the green jacket is available in a different tournament at a different location (other type of PvE content in this case)… that is 100% a case of entitlement.
(edited by SkiTz.4590)
And you’re missing a big problem with your analogy: the PGA doesn’t rely on golfers directly to make money. ANet does rely on its players. If ANet had another revenue stream, advertisements and sponserships for the big-name raiders, people who wanted to watch the raids, the it would definitely be beneficial to create rewards for those who bring in the ad dollars.
However: since we are all customers, and I doubt official competitive raids are in the pipeline, ANet really needs to pay attention to the players who bring in the most money. They have to dedicate their development resources to content that attracts and retains those players. As a business decision, this only makes sense if raiders, per person, spend more money on average than other (also enfranchised) players. Keep in mind, this means completionists who buy every single weapon skin and armor set, although I doubt there are large numbers of those.
I don’t expect ANet to change on this. I’ve pretty much said I’m unhappy with it, given a few reasons WHY I think its a bad idea, and I’ll leave the thread now with this prediction: raids will go the way of dungeons: Not worth continuing because although fans are very enthusiastic about them, not enough people play and enjoy the content to justify spending more time and money on it.
“entitled”: Ad Hominem fallacy condensed to a single word.
And you’re missing a big problem with your analogy: the PGA doesn’t rely on golfers directly to make money. ANet does rely on its players. If ANet had another revenue stream, advertisements and sponserships for the big-name raiders, people who wanted to watch the raids, the it would definitely be beneficial to create rewards for those who bring in the ad dollars.
However: since we are all customers, and I doubt official competitive raids are in the pipeline, ANet really needs to pay attention to the players who bring in the most money. They have to dedicate their development resources to content that attracts and retains those players. As a business decision, this only makes sense if raiders, per person, spend more money on average than other (also enfranchised) players. Keep in mind, this means completionists who buy every single weapon skin and armor set, although I doubt there are large numbers of those.
I don’t expect ANet to change on this. I’ve pretty much said I’m unhappy with it, given a few reasons WHY I think its a bad idea, and I’ll leave the thread now with this prediction: raids will go the way of dungeons: Not worth continuing because although fans are very enthusiastic about them, not enough people play and enjoy the content to justify spending more time and money on it.
The analogy was strictly about rewards but anyways.
You are under the assumptions majority of the player base is going to QUIT the game because anet has added raids and thus , anet will lose revenue or something….
You do realize how much other content HoT is adding right? You do realize anet still going to be adding free content updates after HoT right? Their revenue is not going anywhere but UP with HoT and raids is a one of the many reasons why.
Ppl that have been playing the past couple years aren’t going to up and sudden quit the game all because they don’t like raids….. I don’t like a lot of the stuff I don’t like in GW2, that doesn’t mean I’m quitting lol. There’s all kinds of fun things , everyone has their taste.
So long as anet keeps adding content to ALL aspects (WvW, PvP and PvE) of the game , majority of the playerbase will be happy.
You can stay all doom and gloomy with raids just because you don’t like it, but i’m glad anet is at least diversifying. There are ppl out there that enjoy variety you know..
Anet has been dedicating their resources to keeping “casuals and raid/dung/challenging content haters” happy for the last 3 years with their Living story method. Guess what? it DIDN"T WORK. Anet was not satisifed with the results, which is why they took the path of an xpac.
(edited by SkiTz.4590)
Raid encounters work a bit differently from other types of instanced content in Guild Wars 2. At the core of each encounter is a challenge that we want you and your group to solve. These puzzles, so to speak, will require focus on team coordination, communication, and both build and play roles.
Build roles are what you do at a character level. Things like what weapons, utility skills, traits, and even armor you choose to bring to a fight. Some encounters are going to push you to try different weapons you rarely use, some are going to challenge you to select traits you haven’t considered equipping before, and some encounters may even require a member of your group to dust off that toughness gear to bulk up and tank some heavy hits to protect the condition-build players in the back. This is just a tiny sample of the types of build roles we want to push as a core part of Guild Wars 2 dynamic combat.
Play roles are something that each player will face on an individual level. It’s all about execution here. Some encounters will require the entire raid party to perform a specific task to succeed. This could be something like gliding off the boss platform and catching an updraft to avoid a devastating attack. Other encounters will offer tasks that rely on the expertise of a few select players. This could be a specific creature that needs to be kited away from the rest of the group, otherwise exploding and dealing massive damage.
Am i the only one seeing a problem here? forcing people into a certain playstyle is not good game design, dungeons and fractal you can “play how you want” (though some only accept zerkers and that’s fine as well) but you are saying at Pax or whatever it was that “we don’t want people to wait for that specific profession that can heal” well guess what that’s exactly what your post is saying, requiring us to get a new set of gear is kittenéd when ascended is already a huge grindfest and a slight gear treadmill (albeit an extremely low one)
How do you propose that a small guild who only have 10 players will do in raids when they don’t have that Soldiers gear at hand?
It sounds to me that you are introducing the Holy trinity to the game and most people just seem to accept this, it’s kittenty game design to force people into gear change just for 1 area of the game, please don’t make raids easier but make it so you actually play how you want and still clear the content.
And how would we kill a raid boss in time when we’re forced into healing gear? if you haven’t noticed healing gear is not good, and the scaling of healing skills is extremely bad with a few exception, and please tell what profession that could outheal an Ele/guardian`? (Revenant maybe)
TL:DR Holy Trinity and forced gear selection and excluding of professions will be what is going to happen.
In an actually fast map/group your time will be spent doing loads of events and not waiting around.
Sure, but the point is that even on a “fast” DT or SW map, there is a long time gap between “when you start on the map” and “when you have earned the core reward from the map,” and I believe that this time is too long. You can’t just pop into a DT map and do a few events and feel satisfied that you got what you came for, if you don’t last until the end of a T6 sandstorm and get all the geodes you can out of it then it’s pretty much a waste of time. I think that ideally they would streamline it down to a 30-40 minute cycle, and readjust the way the rewards work so that it’s more based on personal achievement than map achievement. Same with SW, it should require far less defense cycles to engage the Breech, and the Vinewrath events should move a bit faster.
Why? If the fight is engaging enough you won’t “need” to go and find something else to do with your time, the fight is right there.
That’s simply not relevant. I don’t always want to do something else because the current activity bores me, I sometimes just want to do something else because I want to do something else. Like say I want to do daily Fire Elemental, but it happens at x:45, and won’t happen again for several hours. If I’m running DT, then that means abandoning the largest chunk of the reward for that map. Or what if there’s a show I want to watch at a given time, and I don’t want to be playing something that demands my attention during that period, so I can’t start up anything too intensive? Or maybe I know that I have to leave in 30 minutes, but want to get in some fun gameplay.
I know, I know, these are my problems, get over it, but in aggregate these sorts of issues make the game less approachable to people with actual human lives to juggle. If I want to set aside an hour or two for hardcore gameplay, then I can do that, but that’s not always what I want to do, and nor does that mean that I want all my time to be spent on autopilot semi-AFK clicking.
I want to be able to choose at any given time what I’m going, and be able to change that choice as frequently as possible, not because I necessarily intend to change activities at every opportunity, but because I might want to change activities at the second, third, or forth such opportunity, and the more “escape points” offered, the more likely one is to fall at the time that would be convenient for me to take it.
Oh it does make perfect sense, if you can’t see it then it’s not my problem. All you are asking for is for small 15-minute gameplay periods to progress and allow you to get any rewards in the game. That’s what I’d call an entitled person who wants everything handed to them. Won’t happen
Why is it more entitled to request a reward for completing eight 15 minute tasks than it is to request one for completing one two-hour task? They are both the same amount of time spent playing the game, why should they not offer at least close to equivalent rewards?
So you enjoy nearly nothing in Guild Wars 2 yet you post all the time on how they should change a specific part of the game to suit your selfish needs.
Why are you still here?
Again, your impression of what I enjoy is not accurate. I could say the same for you, but I know better than to presume what another person enjoys against their own assertions.
There are only 2 ways of making rewards hard to get:
1) Putting it behind difficult challenging content.
2) Putting it behind a long, tiresome and mind-numbing grind.
Your “ideal” system would turn everything in the 2nd option. I don’t see much fun in that. Building a mud brick wall across my yard is not something I enjoy doing. In fact I’d be amazed is there is ANYONE who’d enjoy doing that.
I think that both should be available for those that only have it in them to pursue one or the other. If you can’t take the grind, then go for the challenging content version. If you can’t do the challenging content then the grind is an option. The point is that the choice would be up to you. If neither is appealing to you, then you’d be out of luck, but at least you would have more than one choice.
Sure, it will happen, but how often will it happen? I’m sure most people can live with the fact that they’ll never be able to get legendary raid armor if they never do raids. Most people will just suck it up, accept it and go for something different than the legendary raid armor. Most people are mature enough to realize that you can’t always have your cake and eat it too.
They might, at a surface level. They might continue to play the game regardless, but this would still be a point at which the game has failed that player, at which the game did not give them a valid path towards a thing that they wanted, and those negative experiences build up. Most players don’t quit MMOs with a bang, but with a whimper. They just have negative elements build up and build up until they just don’t care anymore and wander off to something else. This is one of those categories. Having one set of Legendary Armor not be available isn’t likely to cause too many people to uninstall the game, but it will cause a lot of people to like the game less, to feel that they are less wanted by the game, and combined with other such feelings over time, they will begin to pull away. I believe that these customers are more core to GW2’s business model than the ones who favor raiding, as GW2 has done fine without the raiders for years now.
You’re not serious right? I don’t think it’s needed for me to point out how what you just said is absolutely ridiculous.
Why? You said that the entire point of the skin was not about how it looks, but about showing off to people that you’re a badkitten raider, well how better to do that than with armor that said “RAID” on it in big, bold letters? I mean, you could be running around in full Glorious armor and plenty of players would have no idea you even PvPed because they wouldn’t have read up on where that armor comes from, and the same will be true of full Legendary armor, but with this, they would know just how awesome you believe yourself to be!
True, that would definitely make achievements more fun and valuable. But getting an unique weapon or piece of armor that you can actually physically wear in-game will always be more fun and more valuable.
Sure, getting better stuff is always more fun, but that doesn’t mean that you’re entitled to it. It would be “more fun” for Silverwaste chest farmers if Legendary weapons dropped out of the chests, but does that mean that they should?
You can feel all you want, but that doesn’t change the facts. The facts are that you aren’t forced to do anything.
Your feelz are not more important than the facts.
In a consumer product, the feelz are always more important than the facts. All the facts are capable of doing is potentially influencing how the feelz occur, but it’s the feelz that actually make the calls. In your case, it’s your feelz that you are owed Legendary Armor for completing raids and that anyone else getting them would be wrong that are causing you to oppose broadening their availability. It would make you feel bad and so you oppose it.
Irrelevant. Let’s assume that I am a professional cyclist. Would I be allowed to wear a replica yellow shirt during the race? Why not?
Irrelevant, GW2 is not a professional sporting event. If you were cycling for fun, you would be allowed to wear the replica jersey, and that’s all that’s relevant to GW2.
Adding more “yellow jerseys” to GW2 will make the game better, more fun and it will encourage more players to keep playing to get that “yellow jersey”.
That is entirely subjective. I don’t dispute that it would make the game more fun for you, but it is also a fact that it would make the game less fun for others, and it is my firm belief that the number of people for whom it would make the game less fun FAR outnumber the players who would find it more fun, at least within this community.
I don’t think you understand what “concurrent” means in this context. It basically means active players.
No, that’s not what the word means. Concurrent means “logged on at the exact same time.” A player that was playing twelve hours before that and will be playing again twelve hours after that point is not counted. Even on a game with subscriptions that has several million “active subscribers,” only a few hundred thousand of them will be “concurrent” at any give time. A 400K concurrent rate means that unless every player happens to be playing at that exact time, the number of individuals who played at some other time during that week is likely at least 3-4 times that much, perhaps more.
If nobody is playing the raids then there won’t be a “raid culture”, so what you say doesn’t make any sense. For a “raid culture” to exist, there has to be a fair amount of people playing them. If a fair amount of people are playing them, it means raids are a success.
True, but the “raid culture” might be in effect before it turns out that there aren’t enough o them to sustain the model, and this might drive people away before the raids themselves dry up. And remember that historically raiders are far louder than their actual numbers, so even if the actual population is not large enough to sustain the model, they could make a lot of noise across the game’s community, and are particularly likely to if they feel that raids are not meeting their expectations. It’s quite possible that the raid themselves will cause no problems, but the people attracted by them would.
That’s not true. Getting everything you want will usually become very boring very quickly.
But it would be no quicker (and in fact slower) to gain everything you want under my proposal than it would be under the current system. The amount of time it would take would actually be longer as most of it would be less efficient. It would just be more convenient, allowing you to play activities that you find fun rather than grind away at activities that you don’t. By any reasonable metric the result would be more happy, engaged players.
You’ve been informed wrongly.
Link. Every source I’ve been able to find indicates that Frostmourne is a lore-weapon only, unavailable to players.
I see. You’re right. It was just an example anyway. The point I made still stands though.
So wait, your example didn’t even from from an actual MMO, it only came from a cheat server that broke the rules? Well your solution is simple, set up a private GW2 server and make whatever rules you want for acquiring whatever geegaw you want, and leave the rest of us alone.
But I’ve never cared an iota about the person the item is attached to.
Agreed.
And now that I said that, I DO hope the raid will have some exclusive trophies for the guild hall.
They’ve said that it will, and I’m largely fine with that.
I still remember seeing Sunrise for the first time in GW2 shortly after launch. That was quite cool. But now that everyone and their mother has Sunrise (including myself), it’s no longer cool at all. Especially because it’s so easy to obtain a Sunrise. It just takes a lot of grinding or a credit card.
I still think Sunrise is cool, and it would remain cool even if every player had one. I do think people stand out more for having equipped items that most people don’t, but that doesn’t have to come from that item being super rare, it can instead just be that most players don’t choose to use that item.
You are against the concept of someone who is literally better (in the game/sport context) being rewarded more/exclusively for their progress and achievement?
In the context of GW2? Yes. Again refer to my basketball example, a pro player does not make money because be plays basketball well and that entitles him to make a lot of money, he makes money because the people that pay him benefit from having the best athletes play the best athletes, because that makes for a more entertaining product. That doesn’t really apply at all to an MMO, where the best players do not add any more value to the product than the worst players.
The equivalent would be like if the NBA were not televised, no team or player branded merch were being sold, it was just a bunch of people playing basketball, at the same level of skill, to empty courts, and yet still expecting to get paid millions of dollars just because they’re good at it, while a pick-up team of overweight nobodies would be making nothing. If you take away the viewers and merch, the pro team is no more deserving of anything than the after-work pick-up team.
You see golf has quite a few major tournaments (content). One of the majors is called the Masters (this is X type of content, say Raids for example). The reward for winning the Masters is an exclusive green jacket and trophy. No other major tournament rewards this Green Jacket and there are no trophies like it. So, if you want a green jacket, you have to win the masters (play that particular content)…..
$150 for the skin. That’s less than half the price of Sunrise, btw.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”