Guild Wars 2

Torolan.5816:

maddoctor.2738:

Torolan.5816:

So yes, I object to the idea that a significant portion of the playerbase can´t make it whatever they do, how often they try and should not even make it.

Setting aside the weird examples everyone gives, that’s how video game rewards work.

So how do you expect to have a significant player base for raids if you rule out significant portions of the players by lack of skill already? And why did you argue with me earlier in this thread with you stating that anybody can do it if he really tries and puts effort and training into it?

Call me old fashioned if you want, but this reeks indeed very much of elitism for me. Not unfounded elitism probably, but with an attitude I don´t want to be a part of.

i’d just like to point out that mad doctor and conski are incorrect. They conflate rarity, with difficulty, and while there is overlap, they are not always connected.
Choosing a static task as means of achieving rarity will generally fail, because people are better than they think they are. I believe anyone(normal person) can succeed at any raid that i have seen.
Raids are group endeavors, Not everyone has to be the greatest player. Not everyone has to be great at all types of things.

the point of content specific items is NOT rarity it is to encourage achievement and incentivize deep play.

The only way difficulty= rarity is if it is competitive, and only takes the top X players.

Dadnir.5038:

Otherwise, you design unkillable boss and the purpose of the player is to drive him away to claim an area. Since in the end you leave the instanced raid, it’s only logical that the Boss come again while you’re not here to claim the area.

That’s basically what is done with tequatl, jormag’s claw and the shatterer.

Yes, it can be!
But the main idea can be like this, let’s take Tequatl as an example:
Need to show how often guilds killed him, graphically,
and when total amount of kills will reach specific level, then new raid-wing with Tri-Worms will be opened.
Also developers will have time to develop new raid until players filled the necessary amount of kills
Of course just digits will not motivate enough, so better to show it visually as it was described above.
It can be even in form of skill-tree in Patch of exile game. (just google “path of exile skill tree”). Just imagine: not a single player leveling his own skills, but ALL guilds together leveling Grand-Raid-Tree and opening new tiers/wings of raids.

One thing i dont get with ohoni, he understands not all content is designed for him, but doesnt understand not all items are designed for him, its the same exact principle. Id honestly be more upset that cool bosses, fights, and locations are forever out of my reach, than a specific armor skin.

phys.7689:

The only way difficulty= rarity is if it is competitive, and only takes the top X players.

Like the Legendary back pack from PVP

The most dangerous Mordrem Guard are the commanders, specially created to be the jungle dragon’s elite fighters. There are three unique commanders active in Maguuma, each with its own individual look, weaponry, and set of terrifying magical attacks. Worst of all for Pact forces, Mordremoth has an inexhaustible supply of all three Mordrem Guard commanders; when one falls in battle, the jungle dragon simply creates a new one with the same look, same name, and same deadly abilities as the one it replaced.

from a lore perspective, there’s a pretty easy way to make it lore friendly…

and personally, unique skins and legendary materials and junk is enough of a reason for me to re-run it (we already re-run dungeons just for the sake of gold)

I don’t fully understand the raid concepts in other games like WoW so I won’t comment on the other things you are suggesting

ITheNormalPerson.9275:

The most dangerous Mordrem Guard are the commanders, specially created to be the jungle dragon’s elite fighters. There are three unique commanders active in Maguuma, each with its own individual look, weaponry, and set of terrifying magical attacks. Worst of all for Pact forces, Mordremoth has an inexhaustible supply of all three Mordrem Guard commanders; when one falls in battle, the jungle dragon simply creates a new one with the same look, same name, and same deadly abilities as the one it replaced.

from a lore perspective, there’s a pretty easy way to make it lore friendly…

and personally, unique skins and legendary materials and junk is enough of a reason for me to re-run it (we already re-run dungeons just for the sake of gold)

I don’t fully understand the raid concepts in other games like WoW so I won’t comment on the other things you are suggesting

Raid concept in WOW is a gear-treadmill. People want to be stronger, new armor-tier with better stats give them this possibility.
I just see to the future of GW2 raids: after few months of raiding all will have legendary armors, and what is the next reason to play? New armor tier with better stas as it was in WOW? Anet already declined this way. Just skins? A skin imho is not enough motivation to defeat strong boss after 100 attepts. So better to have another high-level target too.

Eternity is one piece that has been hovering between 4k and 5k and then 4k again, rinse repeat.

In a market this large, a sample size of one is irrelevant, besides which Eternity is always going to be a bit odd, being a Legendary made by combining two legendaries, beholden to the price of each, and in VERY limited supply. There are only two of them currently on the market. It doesn’t even show inflation, as the price has been relatively stable. Where’s your evidence of inflation?

It’s called logic or rather common sense. If you put a great deal of rewards obtainable through any content then you solve the problem. The rest of the rewards can be exclusive to appeal to both types of players.

No, again, the volume of rewards that are non-exclusive verses exclusive is entirely irrelevant, all that matters is whether the specific rewards that are valued fall onto the exclusive or non-exclusive side. So long as nobody wants any of the stuff that is exclusive, then it works out, but so long as anyone does want any of the stuff that is exclusive, then it has failed. If you want an exclusive “raid spoon” then fine, I think most people can live with that, but exclusive raid armor? No, you cannot claim to be limiting anyone’s frustration.

Players who want rewards for HOW you obtain them are those who want the raid rewards exclusive. They aren’t selfish in that regard, that’s how they want rewards to be, you on the other hand are being completely selfish for imposing your own ideal on them.

Nobody said that they can’t earn their rewards in a specific way if that’s how they want to earn them, all that’s being asked for is that other players, who do not want to do that specific way, be allowed to pursue them via an alternative method. I’m not taking anything away, only adding, and wanting to “impose that ideal” on the situation is no more selfish than those trying to impose the exclusionary ideal, and in fact is considerably less so, since the result is more people having the item that they want.

Base access to raids is available for anyone (like in your example anyone can take the college test to be a police man). Success in raids, is not, is this not what you’re arguing against us for? you’re aware that part of raids is that significant portion of the playerbase can’t successfully complete it and you feel thats a bad thing?

Yes. Or rather, requiring it is. It’s a circular argument you guys are making,
“it’s ok for raids to have exclusive rewards because everyone can do raids.” →
“then raids should be easy enough that everyone can do them” →
“but raids should be challenging so that only a few players can complete them” →
“then raids should not have rewards that you can only earn from raiding” → repeat.

Pick one. Either raids will be easy enough, and convenient enough that even players of limited skill and with limited time on their hands can reasonably complete them enough to earn the rewards, OR there are alternate methods for earning the rewards so that those from whom raids represent an unreasonable burden can acquire the rewards elsewhere. Stop trying to argue for something that fits neither of those options as if it were a reasonable proposition.

This is why I always laugh when people say in relation to rare items “Oh they can be rare but if someone puts effort in they should be able to get it”, that’s not a rare item everyone who wants it gets it.

But everyone who doesn’t put in the effort doesn’t get it, so it’s rare.

Does the reward have to be an armor skin to be desirable? No. Titles and Minis are also immediately visible in-game and verifiable ways of announcing “I’m an at least marginally competent raider.” Cosmetic items like infinite tonics of the raid’s boss or new pseudo-mounts like the riding broom could be used as flags for raid completion. There are things MUCH more visible than armor that could be used to proclaim your success.

I’ve thought of what might be an actual compromise here, something both sides might be about to live with, Outfits. There could be an Outfit exclusive to raids, and I doubt anyone would actually give a kitten. That way, raiders could wander around in their oh so fancy raider Outfit, while no actual armor pieces would be off limits to the other players. Fair?

There are 6 armor pieces, and you will probably need each piece 3 times to get all 18 armors (3 weights). So there is the potential to succeed at running a raid AT LEAST (based on RNG) 6-18 times. Because there are so many potential rewards, their RNG can be lessened. Also, even after you get your 18th armor there is still reason to continue running the raid for your other characters. This means that legendary armor has the potential to keep players occupied for a very long time.

But keep in mind, even the most “hardcore/radical/me” in this thread, has never suggested removing raid armor from the game. Even if I got my way 100%, you would still be able to earn raids via armor, if that’s how you’d prefer to do it, and it would be balanced in such a way that this would definitely be the fastest way, and the most efficient for anyone who’s halfway decent at raiding. So none of your argument here would be impacted in the slightest, raiding would still be your fastest/easiest method for getting a full set for your characters, you would still get your full set before anyone who didn’t raid got theirs, and if you kept at it past that you could still get full sets for all your characters that way (presumably).

So again, nobody is proposing taking any of that away from you, all that is on the table is adding additional methods of earning them, for other people to pursue.

On the other hand, Titles and Minis are both horrible ideas as (the only) raid rewards. Titles can only be acquired once, no need to re-run the raid once you get it.

True, but who says you would get the title for only running it once? What if there were three titles? Let’s say you’re right about the armor, that it would take perhaps 18 times through to earn the armor. What if they had one title, “HoT Victor” that you get for completing the raid once. Lots of people would have this eventually. /yawn, ok. But then they have another “HoT Expert,” which requires that you clear it 20 times. Then another, “HoT Master,” which requires 50 times (or whatever). There could even be others too, like “HoT Speedfreak.” That would require you to beat it in well under the projected average time, or others relating to specific challenges within the raid.

The names are obviously placeholders, pick whatever you think would be appropriate.

Also, for minis, they’ve done plenty of similar things in the past, like with the llamas, perhaps there could be a mini for each boss, earned by killing each boss (plus RNG), and then if you combine them in various ways they result in alternates, either new minis entirely, or just repaints or ones with special auras to them, potentially very fancy ones, but it would require that you get like three of boss A and one of Final boss to combine and get “Fancy Boss A” with a glowy aura, or combine three Final Boss with one Boss A to get “Final Boss Red,” then do the same with bosses B and C, then combine one Final Boss with one each of the three colored final bosses, to get “Final Boss Omega” or whatever. If you had that one then it would mean you beat that final boss like dozens of times or more, and would be no less a simple of effort than a full set of armor skins, and displayable using a single character, which would be impossible for showing off that you’d outfitted more than one character in Legendary armor.

And even so, you might not like some of the minis, once you get those you like it’s over.

The same is true there of armor pieces though, since Legendary armor doesn’t offer a stat increase, you’re just collecting the skins, so if you don’t care about the looks of the shoulder armor, you wouldn’t care about acquiring it any more or less than you would about collecting a mini that you did not care about. That would be doubly true if they offered alternate Legendary Armor that had a different skin, since you wouldn’t even need the raid version for the stat-swapping convenience.

I believe a significant portion of the population will interact with raids, that’s all they have to do. The content is measured by people playing it not succeeding it.
Take the mad kings clock-tower, I have not succeeded that jumping puzzle (only one I haven’t), I have still gotten game-play out of it and interacted with it.

If most players try the raid, fail the raid, and stop going to the raid, I don’t think they could call that a “success.” The success rate would not be judged by how many people attempt the raid, nor actually by how many people complete the raid, but rather by how many people continue to do the raid months after it launches. If everyone who does the raid passes it, but they still have enough fun that they choose to play it over and over for many months, then that is successful content. If few people pass it, but lots of people are engaged enough that they keep trying for many many months, then that’s also successful. But if only few people pass it, and most completely give up after a few tries, so that only a small number of players continue to repeat it, then that is a failure.

A 10% pass rate might be considered successful, for something run over a short term in which people keep trying after failing for at least a little while. A 10% participation rate, on the other hand, should never be viewed as a success, especially not for content that likely involves a LOT more developer time and resources than the Clocktower did.

On the elitism front, I dislike the term but I can see why people use it. How would you separate out the desire for recognition/showing off skills and reward it to that class of players satisfaction?

The same way you would separate sugar from candy?

I really don’t understand the question, are you asking how one would separate out “the behavior of being an elitist,” from “being an elitist?”

I like to think that I’ve helped a lot more people than I’ve hindered in this game, I always answer questions from new players , help them out occasionally and don’t kick in dungeons (the stereotypes the elitist title promotes) at the same time I do have the strong desire to be unique^ and or gain passive recognition^^.

And that’s nice and all, but it’s just being an benevolent elitist. It’s still wanting to consider yourself superior to others, while being as nice to them as can be. You’d like them to advance, so long as you stay ahead of them. It’s hardly the worst form of elitism out there, but it’s still elitism. It’s like those rich people that fight tooth and nail to protect tax breaks on their income, but still donate a portion of their money to charities of their choosing.

I brought up auras, color differences, even a small arbitray difference such as a star or number one, or different palette choice. Nothing is acceptable because he might want that one.

I did say that it would be ok if the raid version were visually identical to the non-raid versions except that they would have “RAID” printed on each piece, but nobody seemed to like that one. My only concern was that if the raid version were “slightly different” then it would be in a way that made it cooler than the other version, like the alternate version would be Carapace armor and the raid version would be Luminescent armor (or vice-versa).

One thing i dont get with ohoni, he understands not all content is designed for him, but doesnt understand not all items are designed for him, its the same exact principle.

That’s not quite true, or at least not the way you put it. I do understand that not all items are for me. The Shadow of the Dragon skins on the BLTC today, for example. Not for me. I couldn’t ever see one of my characters wearing one of those, but maybe someone else can, so that skin is for him. But if I do like the armor in question, then yeah, that’s for me.

And so the problem is that you have content which might not be for me, like raids, and then you have items that are for me, like perhaps Raid Armor, and you can’t get at the latter without getting through the former. So there is an impasse.

Now, your example could have some merit, if it were possible to pick and choose which items you had access to, not all of them, but any of them. Make it so that nothing is guaranteed to anyone, but everyone is guaranteed a certain amount. We’ve talked in the past about “well what if 99% of the items are available to anyone, but 1% is exclusive,” and why that doesn’t work because that 1% might be the stuff that you actually want.

But what if instead, the way it worked was that of all the items out there, you could choose 90% of it, any 90% of it, that you could earn, and the other 10%, whatever 10% you didn’t want, would be unavailable? I would even prefer access to only 50% of the items in the game, if they were the 50% I chose, over having access to 99%, if the remaining 1% were something I wanted.

Lich King.1524:

Players must have way to easily compare and understand who did better job. It will motivate players.

How is this connected to raids in any way? The “motivation” you’re thinking of doesn’t exist. Yes, someone who hasn’t given their all might be motivated to do better next time. No, the same group won’t take him for the next time because he’s clearly not giving his all.

Implementation
It can be in-game diagram with black area in the beginning, where each defeat of the boss will fill 1 red-pixel, and win against stronger boss will fill several red-pixels, etc
Filling can follow from left to right or by another system (filling of the map-areas for example)
Different guilds can have little be different colors, then will be easy to see which guild made more victories and have bigger influence in to the big picture.
By mouse over will be possible to see immediately which guild achieved each specific victory and when.
I suggest to play around this idea:
- When picture will be fully filled we will achieve GREAT VICTORY and can OPEN another RAID-Tier.

That’s not possible. How do you expect ANet to always have a raid tier ready, regardless of how fast the previous one has been completed? And even beyond that, what would a raid tier even mean for Guild Wars 2?

Just skins? A skin imho is not enough motivation to defeat strong boss after 100 attepts. So better to have another high-level target too.

Skins, along with minis and tonics, have been successful motivators in content from the very beginning.

Ohoni.6057:

And so the problem is that you have content which might not be for me, like raids, and then you have items that are for me, like perhaps Raid Armor, and you can’t get at the latter without getting through the former. So there is an impasse.

Why would you think that raid armor is for you? It is clearly not for you since ya know… you don’t like raids and get raid armor you need to do raids. Entitled huh?

Ohoni.6057:

And so the problem is that you have content which might not be for me, like raids, and then you have items that are for me, like perhaps Raid Armor, and you can’t get at the latter without getting through the former. So there is an impasse.

There is no impasse, if you cannot master all areas of the game, you do not deserve everything in it, you are not entitled to legendary armor, no one is, if you can prove you have the skill to acquire it then you do, have you ever played any games besides GW2? This is an extremely basic and simple rule of game design, there is no argument to be had, different parts of the game grant different rewards and different skins, and no, you cannot earn all of the skins by only adhering to one portion of the game, because PvP, WvW and PvE and its different facets require different skills, if you master them all good for you, if you don’t, tough luck, the community has been asking for meaningful challenging and rewarding group content since the game came out, if the rewards can be obtained elsewhere, raids will no longer be meaningful, you’re literally the opposite of an elitist, extremes are never good.

TL;DR: Git gud.

Olba.5376:

Lich King.1524:

Players must have way to easily compare and understand who did better job. It will motivate players.

How is this connected to raids in any way? The “motivation” you’re thinking of doesn’t exist. Yes, someone who hasn’t given their all might be motivated to do better next time. No, the same group won’t take him for the next time because he’s clearly not giving his all.

I mean not comparison between individual players, but competition between different raids (basicaly between guilds).
It does not exists in GW2. Yet.
But rememeber: competition – is the endless motivation reason.

Olba.5376:

Implementation
It can be in-game diagram with black area in the beginning, where each defeat of the boss will fill 1 red-pixel, and win against stronger boss will fill several red-pixels, etc
Filling can follow from left to right or by another system (filling of the map-areas for example)
Different guilds can have little be different colors, then will be easy to see which guild made more victories and have bigger influence in to the big picture.
By mouse over will be possible to see immediately which guild achieved each specific victory and when.
I suggest to play around this idea:
- When picture will be fully filled we will achieve GREAT VICTORY and can OPEN another RAID-Tier.

That’s not possible. How do you expect ANet to always have a raid tier ready, regardless of how fast the previous one has been completed? And even beyond that, what would a raid tier even mean for Guild Wars 2?

It’s just a question of balancing.
For example 1 guild can kill 1 boss once per 1 week. Number of active raiding guilds will be known very soon. So it’s easy to calculate.
Raid tier in GW2 = I mean new raid with new bosses (or new raid wing)

Olba.5376:

Just skins? A skin imho is not enough motivation to defeat strong boss after 100 attepts. So better to have another high-level target too.

Skins, along with minis and tonics, have been successful motivators in content from the very beginning.

Loot motivation system is is a too boring and weak. Better to have something more real.

Also GW2 had no challenging content earlier. For no challenging content these tonics/skins are enough .
IMHO more challenging content requires much stronger motivation. The real purpose. The real target.
I can already predict a flood of tears “these bosses are too strong!” “we made already 5 attempts and still can’t defeat him”. Then they will just stop trying. It will be 90% of players. Because no strong reason to try 100 or 200 times to kill 1 boss.
Or even they will kill boss once, but will never repeat it.

Why would you think that raid armor is for you? It is clearly not for you since ya know… you don’t like raids and get raid armor you need to do raids. Entitled huh?

Because it might look cool. Phys’s point was that I was willing to accept that raids were not for me, but not willing to accept that the armor might not be for me, but the two are completely different things. Whether the raid is for me or not is dependent on whether I enjoy the content inside it, and chances are that I won’t, so if it’s just about the raid itself, then sure, I can say that the raid is not for me and go about my business. But whether the armor is for me or not is dependent on how it looks, and has nothing to do with the content it’s attached to, so the situation can easily arise where I can say that the raid is definitely not “for me,” but the armor they have attached to it definitely is.

You kill the same boss over and over again for the same reason Ascalonian rebels and ghosts still attack human players and undead players aren’t weak to holy or get downleveled in lower level areas: gameplay and story segregation. I don’t like it either and think the trend should steer more towards integration. If a character can mechanically mow down rows and rows of monsters then cutscenes should keep that in mind and not imply that a small group of the things is an uphill battle.

Lich King.1524:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

I’ve always assumed that we only kill the boss once. Subsequent fights are deja vu all over again — the boss isn’t actually respawning, we just perceive it as a second fight. (For gaming purposes, we get to keep the loot.)

In short: the idea is to utilize the fact that every boss will be kiled mutiple times by creating the visible progress of these facts, and by creating the BIG target (open new raid-wing for example). As a bonus: this system will create the competition between guilds that will improve the motivation as well.

I’m not sure why you replied to me. It remains my opinion that we can already explain how it’s possible to fight the same boss repeatedly. As a general principle, I’m against anything that creates competition in GW2 PvE.

While I don’t see those ideas improving GW2, they do sound like they would be fun in an appropriate game.

Lich King.1524:

Olba.5376:

Lich King.1524:

Players must have way to easily compare and understand who did better job. It will motivate players.

How is this connected to raids in any way? The “motivation” you’re thinking of doesn’t exist. Yes, someone who hasn’t given their all might be motivated to do better next time. No, the same group won’t take him for the next time because he’s clearly not giving his all.

I mean not comparison between individual players, but competition between different raids (basicaly between guilds).
It does not exists in GW2. Yet.
But rememeber: competition – is the endless motivation reason.

Olba.5376:

Implementation
It can be in-game diagram with black area in the beginning, where each defeat of the boss will fill 1 red-pixel, and win against stronger boss will fill several red-pixels, etc
Filling can follow from left to right or by another system (filling of the map-areas for example)
Different guilds can have little be different colors, then will be easy to see which guild made more victories and have bigger influence in to the big picture.
By mouse over will be possible to see immediately which guild achieved each specific victory and when.
I suggest to play around this idea:
- When picture will be fully filled we will achieve GREAT VICTORY and can OPEN another RAID-Tier.

That’s not possible. How do you expect ANet to always have a raid tier ready, regardless of how fast the previous one has been completed? And even beyond that, what would a raid tier even mean for Guild Wars 2?

It’s just a question of balancing.
For example 1 guild can kill 1 boss once per 1 week. Number of active raiding guilds will be known very soon. So it’s easy to calculate.
Raid tier in GW2 = I mean new raid with new bosses (or new raid wing)

Olba.5376:

Just skins? A skin imho is not enough motivation to defeat strong boss after 100 attepts. So better to have another high-level target too.

Skins, along with minis and tonics, have been successful motivators in content from the very beginning.

Loot motivation system is is a too boring and weak. Better to have something more real.

Also GW2 had no challenging content earlier. For no challenging content these tonics/skins are enough .
IMHO more challenging content requires much stronger motivation. The real purpose. The real target.
I can already predict a flood of tears “these bosses are too strong!” “we made already 5 attempts and still can’t defeat him”. Then they will just stop trying. It will be 90% of players. Because no strong reason to try 100 or 200 times to kill 1 boss.
Or even they will kill boss once, but will never repeat it.

I beta tested a Charr warrior in the base game and found the story quests to be quite challenging.

Hopefully raids would have cheap gimmicky mechanics and the challenge is almost as fair as PvP. A Dark Soulsesque balanced yet radically different should be brought to the table. Players have similar advantages to one another (relatively similar damage output and HP compared to PvE bosses) yet bosses have radically different advantages such as invincibility at times. By Dark Soulseque balance I mean that bosses will keep their radically different mechanics and abilities while still being a fair challenge to the player. Fractals if you haven’t studied the encounters ahead of time feel cheap and it’s hard to figure out what to do. You can get shouted at just for killing things alongside the friendly NPCs. Isn’t taking out the things with red over their name what we’re supposed to do so they won’t be trouble later?

Some mechanics may seem cheap at first but actually be fair in hindsight, like the Thaddeus raid in Wrath of the Lich King (you don’t wanna know the lore behind him, trust me) where everyone needs to cooperate and keep polarities in mind.

Ohoni.6057:

Why would you think that raid armor is for you? It is clearly not for you since ya know… you don’t like raids and get raid armor you need to do raids. Entitled huh?

Because it might look cool.

Brilliant.

You’ve heard it guys, if something in GW2 looks cool then Ohoni is entitled to it. Doesn’t matter that he already dismissed raids before we even know anything about them, the armor you can earn with raiding might look cool, so Ohoni deserves it.

Ohoni.6057:

Why would you think that raid armor is for you? It is clearly not for you since ya know… you don’t like raids and get raid armor you need to do raids. Entitled huh?

Because it might look cool. Phys’s point was that I was willing to accept that raids were not for me, but not willing to accept that the armor might not be for me, but the two are completely different things. Whether the raid is for me or not is dependent on whether I enjoy the content inside it, and chances are that I won’t, so if it’s just about the raid itself, then sure, I can say that the raid is not for me and go about my business. But whether the armor is for me or not is dependent on how it looks, and has nothing to do with the content it’s attached to, so the situation can easily arise where I can say that the raid is definitely not “for me,” but the armor they have attached to it definitely is.

You are not getting that cool skin without doing that content. Thats how its going to be and you are not changing it…

Go make your own game the way you want. This game is not for you.

You absolutely dont deserve the cool skin if you arent willing to do the task anet has assigned to achieve it.

This is not for you and its not changing nor should it change. Keep dreaming.

Everything you keep saying reeks of entitlement. News flash, if you dont do particular content you arent going to get particular rewards. Thats how almost all mmorpgs are.

You are not entitled to that cool armor skin if you dont want to work the path anet has set for you. This is not ohoni wars 2. You dont get to make the call on how rewards should be distributed. I understand all you want is multiple paths to the cool skin. Anet believes some things need to remain in one path like pvp backpeice and frac skims… This will be no different.

If you dont like it, too bad. You arent getting it your way and you dont deserve to either.

You’ve heard it guys, if something in GW2 looks cool then Ohoni is entitled to it. Doesn’t matter that he already dismissed raids before we even know anything about them, the armor you can earn with raiding might look cool, so Ohoni deserves it.

Yup. not that I shouldn’t have to work for it, but the method by which I work for it should be versatile enough to allow for multiple possibilities, at least one of which I would be likely to enjoy doing as much as you enjoy raiding.

What, has that been unclear up to this point?

Everything you keep saying reeks of entitlement. News flash, if you dont do particular content you arent going to get particular rewards. Thats how almost all mmorpgs are.

But the raider’s position is no less entitled. They are demanding not just access to the things they want, but also the right to restrict access from other players who don’t want to engage in the same content. You might argue that raiders are just trying to retain the system already proposed by ANet, but arguing for the status quo is still taking a position. The raider’s position is “we want to have fancy loot for our raid, and we don’t want anyone else to have it,” and that’s just as entitled, if not moreso, as anything I’ve said.

You are not entitled to that cool armor skin if you dont want to work the path anet has set for you. This is not ohoni wars 2. You dont get to make the call on how rewards should be distributed.

No, of course not, but I do get to make the call on how I would prefer to see them distributed, which I have, and I can make the case to ANet and my fellow players as to why I believe this would be in the game’s overall best interests, which I have, and then the ball is in ANet’s court as to whether or not they make any changes based on that customer feedback, which they could do. I don’t see what seems so wrong about that to you. Don’t you believe that players should be able to request things that they believe would improve the game?

Ohoni.6057:

Don’t you believe that players should be able to request things that they believe would improve the game?

Except your belief is not an improvement to this game… that is evident from this thread as you have very few supporting your idea…

anet has an idea of how the reward system should be and there has been very little outcry or complaining regarding the reward structure revealed for raids…

You can keep requesting things to be “your way” to anet.

I’m going to keep saying your way is terrible and should not even be considered to be implemented.

Once again, it’s great knowing you are not in charge of making reward decisions. This game would be disaster following your ideals

The problem is similar to a discussion I did see about guild-halls. That small guilds should also have access to guild-halls. That is fine but from what size are you even considered a guild? I would say 15 but in that discussion within no-time people said they wanted a guild-hall for there personal guild. If you disagree you where of-course somebody who did think he was entitled to stuff and other weren’t.

But the real reason is because if 1 person can get a guild-hall, a guild-hall is not a guild-hall anymore but it becomes personal housing.

Same with reward.. If you win at a match you get a medal, representing the sport you won at.. That is a reward. If you work, you earn money (that sort of is a reward) and then you buy stuff.. but that stuff is stuff, not a reward and that is how it is in GW2.

Pretty much since the beginning we have seen complains about bad rewards in GW2 and Anet has been increasing the drops more and more.. At this moment if you do some content you bags all full with stuff including bags full of stuff, you even get stuff for logging in. Most of all the stuff you sell to get gold to buy. But still people complain about no rewards. Simply because those things do not feel like a reward. The stuff you get in GW2 feels like “earning” just like a job earns you money.. But the items you get don’t feel like a reward.

This system where you get a reward based on the content you complete is a reward.

SkiTz.4590:

Ohoni.6057:

Don’t you believe that players should be able to request things that they believe would improve the game?

Except your belief is not an improvement to this game… that is evident from this thread as you have very few supporting your idea…

anet has an idea of how the reward system should be and there has been very little outcry or complaining regarding the reward structure revealed for raids…

You can keep requesting things to be “your way” to anet.

I’m going to keep saying your way is terrible and should not even be considered to be implemented.

Once again, it’s great knowing you are not in charge of making reward decisions. This game would be disaster following your ideals

Honestly, GW2 has been pretty close to how Ohoni wants it for the last few year. It was however the biggest negative and the reward-system can be considered a disaster for the most part. However, it looks like with HoT there are finally coming some positive changes to it. Still have to wait and see as one big reason for them to have this reward-system is linked to the cash-shop. But we will see. Lets hope GW2 will get a better reward system.. Sadly for Ohoni not the system he likes.

Devata.6589:

SkiTz.4590:

Ohoni.6057:

Don’t you believe that players should be able to request things that they believe would improve the game?

Except your belief is not an improvement to this game… that is evident from this thread as you have very few supporting your idea…

anet has an idea of how the reward system should be and there has been very little outcry or complaining regarding the reward structure revealed for raids…

You can keep requesting things to be “your way” to anet.

I’m going to keep saying your way is terrible and should not even be considered to be implemented.

Once again, it’s great knowing you are not in charge of making reward decisions. This game would be disaster following your ideals

Honestly, GW2 has been pretty close to how Ohoni wants it for the last few year. It was however the biggest negative and the reward-system can be considered a disaster for the most part. However, it looks like with HoT there are finally coming some positive changes to it. Still have to wait and see as one big reason for them to have this reward-system is linked to the cash-shop. But we will see. Lets hope GW2 will get a better reward system.. Sadly for Ohoni not the system he likes.

Yes a lot of rewards have multiple paths mostly because you can buy 90% of the things through TP which means just farm gold and you can get 90% of the stuff.

Anet has still had exclusive items since the beginning of gw2 though….its just hasn’t been that much which is why they are adding more and more because thats what is lacking in this game – unique reward system instead of this “find the highest gold per hour” and buy what you want.

Ohoni, just curious….what would you consider an “appropriate” alternative to get the reward exactly?

xarallei.4279:

Ohoni, just curious….what would you consider an “appropriate” alternative to get the reward exactly?

He’s already described it, an equivalent amount of time spent doing something else that attracts a player as opposed to one piece of content.

If they could put a scale on how many Bandit Crests could amount to how much time the average raider would spend in the Raid in question, that amount of crests would be the cost for the same Legendary Armor.

That’s his proposition, of course perhaps it doesn’t have to be Silverwastes, maybe it is Jumping Puzzles, or perhaps Dungeon runs. Anything else that makes it less exclusive than tying it strictly to a raid is something Ononi wants. That’s the only ‘solution’ he has suggested.

No, he’s never specifically said what he wants to do as an alternative. He’s always been very vague about what exactly would be an appropriate amount of effort equal to raiding for these alternate activities and what exactly these alternative activities are. Now I know what they aren’t, he’s said stuff like role playing and sitting around LA would obviously not do it. But what does in his book?

xarallei.4279:

No, he’s never specifically said what he wants to do as an alternative. He’s always been very vague about what exactly would be an appropriate amount of effort equal to raiding for these alternate activities and what exactly these alternative activities are. Now I know what they aren’t, he’s said stuff like role playing and sitting around LA would obviously not do it. But what does in his book?

I find that highly exclusive of him.

I mean what if I enjoy roleplaying? Shouldn’t I be able to earn my legendary armor with that? What makes a person who farms Silverwastes or someone who enjoys raids, jumping puzzles, Silverwaster or map completion more entitled to legendary armor than a roleplayer?

A roleplayer might not enjoy raiding, dungeons, PvP, WvW, jumping puzzles, map completion and/or Silverwastes, but he might like that legendary armor. Shouldn’t he be entitled to that legendary armor just as anyone else?

I’d like to hear your answer to that question Ohoni.

He’s just going to accuse you of pulling out a strawman.

Though seriously, I know some people who RP all day long. They have a certain tavern in a certain map (will refrain from saying where because they are nice people and I don’t want them trolled) that they always hang out in and all they do is RP. I never see them do anything else. Not sure how they feel about all this though…

Except your belief is not an improvement to this game… that is evident from this thread as you have very few supporting your idea…

That you believe you’ve made a point with that statement only shows how little you understand how reality works. The number of people who agree with me on a thread about raids on the forums have absolutely zero baring on whether it would be good for the game or not.

The problem is similar to a discussion I did see about guild-halls. That small guilds should also have access to guild-halls. That is fine but from what size are you even considered a guild? I would say 15 but in that discussion within no-time people said they wanted a guild-hall for there personal guild. If you disagree you where of-course somebody who did think he was entitled to stuff and other weren’t.

Why not? You can do it in Wildstar. Of course it would be harder to max out a personal guild hall, but no reason you shouldn’t be able to make one.

Same with reward.. If you win at a match you get a medal, representing the sport you won at.. That is a reward. If you work, you earn money (that sort of is a reward) and then you buy stuff.. but that stuff is stuff, not a reward and that is how it is in GW2.

And an armor skin is not a medal, a medal is a medal. If they want to give raiders a medal, I’m all for it, if they want to give them exclusive skins, we have a disagreement.

If they could put a scale on how many Bandit Crests could amount to how much time the average raider would spend in the Raid in question, that amount of crests would be the cost for the same Legendary Armor.

Yeah, give or take, and with an edge towards the original source of the content such that it is always the most efficient method, and also with the caveat that “easy” methods of play, like chest farming, would not work for this system, but yeah, basically.

No, he’s never specifically said what he wants to do as an alternative. He’s always been very vague about what exactly would be an appropriate amount of effort equal to raiding for these alternate activities and what exactly these alternative activities are.

I believe I’ve been fairly specific in the past. It’s hard to get perfectly exact about it at this point since we still have no idea how difficult, time consuming, or repetitive it will be to earn these things via raiding, I can be no more specific than they have been, but in terms of existing open world content, world bosses like Teq, Wurm, and Claw, maybe also Karka. Events like Silverwaste and Dry Top could, if tweaked a bit. There could be daily missions to do certain chain events in various maps, the ones that require at least a little conscious participation. How specific do you need me to be here?

He’s just going to accuse you of pulling out a strawman.

Mostly because that’s the exact definition of the term, but, yeah.

But if they can make a case for that, then let them, I’m not going to make it for them, that’s not my case.

phys.7689:

Truth is it really boils down to wanting everything on ones own terms.

Absolutely. As long as you realize that’s true of EVERYONE participating in this discussion .

Nike.2631:

phys.7689:

Truth is it really boils down to wanting everything on ones own terms.

Absolutely. As long as you realize that’s true of EVERYONE participating in this discussion .

not really at all.
The raiders arent asking that every item be available through raids, The unique item lovers arent asking that every item be unique.
I probably wont do raids, i dont have 10 people, and in other games 10 people usually lowered entertainment for me. And managing 10 people? eck.
Still i believe that a unique reward for raids is logical, and good game design. Because i have seen what the other implementation achieves.

Everyone doesnt want to get everything on thier terms, most people accept that some things just come at a price they arent willing to pay, and they accept that as long as over all, things a fair, and they have enough for themselves, its ok if they cant get everything the way they want to get it.

Accepting a set of term makes them your terms. Arguing for a set of terms DEFINITELY makes them your terms . It doesn’t matter if your justification is naked self interest or enlightened self interest. We are ALL arguing for something that makes us happy. There’s no moral high ground defending the status quo or the Dev’s proposal. There IS practical high ground in that siding with the plan is a lot easier than coming up with an alternative compelling enough to get them to shift their plan. And on the whole I think the people asking for a change of course are NOT doing a good job of formulating a compelling argument for change or a compelling model of what to change too.

Which really makes me wonder why people in favor of the current plan are so defensive of it. “I’d like skins to not be locked behind raiding” repeated over and over for 20 pages is NOT going to make them change their minds. It’ll take a LOT more carefully presented reasoning that’s just not going on in this thread. Which is why I asked Ohoni what their endgame was, because at this point continued posting in this thread has nothing to do with actually achieving their desired outcome.

The raiders arent asking that every item be available through raids, The unique item lovers arent asking that every item be unique.

Both true points, but also true, the raiders are asking that some items be unique to raids, and the unique item lovers are asking that some items be unique, both positions are diametrically opposed to the idea that players should be able to get the items they want via a variety of means. You might agree with those positions, but do not portray them as being “more reasonable,” they are just on the opposite side of the spectrum.

Everyone doesnt want to get everything on thier terms, most people accept that some things just come at a price they arent willing to pay, and they accept that as long as over all, things a fair, and they have enough for themselves, its ok if they cant get everything the way they want to get it.

I’m willing to accept things as they are when I must, but if I see a better way, I will push for that change as best I’m able. I don’t see why anyone wouldn’t, that seems lazy or fatalistic to me. If you can improve something, seek to improve it as best you can, don’t give up just because you find it challenging or unlikely that you can succeed.

Ohoni.6057:

No, again, the volume of rewards that are non-exclusive verses exclusive is entirely irrelevant, all that matters is whether the specific rewards that are valued fall onto the exclusive or non-exclusive side. So long as nobody wants any of the stuff that is exclusive, then it works out, but so long as anyone does want any of the stuff that is exclusive, then it has failed. If you want an exclusive “raid spoon” then fine, I think most people can live with that, but exclusive raid armor? No, you cannot claim to be limiting anyone’s frustration.

No you are still wrong yet for some reason don’t get it, the volume of non-exclusive is all that matters. That’s what limiting frustration means and is.

Nobody said that they can’t earn their rewards in a specific way if that’s how they want to earn them, all that’s being asked for is that other players, who do not want to do that specific way, be allowed to pursue them via an alternative method. I’m not taking anything away, only adding, and wanting to “impose that ideal” on the situation is no more selfish than those trying to impose the exclusionary ideal, and in fact is considerably less so, since the result is more people having the item that they want.

And again you are wrong. Which is worse, limit the game based on “just a pretty skin” or a whole way of thinking? The result isn’t “better” because more players get the item
they want. A result is better when it applies to both sides, your idea is focused only on one side, having some exclusives focuses on both, so by definition it’s a better solution. Yours isn’t even a solution.

So again, nobody is proposing taking any of that away from you, all that is on the table is adding additional methods of earning them, for other people to pursue.

Addition methods of earning them is exactly how you take them away from me. You still don’t understand this, why is it such a hard concept to grasp?

True, but who says you would get the title for only running it once? What if there were three titles? Let’s say you’re right about the armor, that it would take perhaps 18 times through to earn the armor. What if they had one title, “HoT Victor” that you get for completing the raid once. Lots of people would have this eventually. /yawn, ok. But then they have another “HoT Expert,” which requires that you clear it 20 times. Then another, “HoT Master,” which requires 50 times (or whatever). There could even be others too, like “HoT Speedfreak.” That would require you to beat it in well under the projected average time, or others relating to specific challenges within the raid.

That’s just a terrible grind. You really don’t understand anything about what this “other” side wants right?

The names are obviously placeholders, pick whatever you think would be appropriate.

None.

That would be doubly true if they offered alternate Legendary Armor that had a different skin, since you wouldn’t even need the raid version for the stat-swapping convenience.

That’s why there are adding Legendary Armor in the raid. They know this.

I did say that it would be ok if the raid version were visually identical to the non-raid versions except that they would have “RAID” printed on each piece, but nobody seemed to like that one.

Because that’s a garbage suggestion, why would anyone like it if it has “raid” printed on it?

We are going in circles because you still refuse to understand what we are even discussing. And to re-iterate, maybe sometime you get it, reward = “just skins” isn’t working for all players.

Ohoni.6057:

The raiders arent asking that every item be available through raids, The unique item lovers arent asking that every item be unique.

Both true points, but also true, the raiders are asking that some items be unique to raids, and the unique item lovers are asking that some items be unique, both positions are diametrically opposed to the idea that players should be able to get the items they want via a variety of means. You might agree with those positions, but do not portray them as being “more reasonable,” they are just on the opposite side of the spectrum.

You should learn what a compromise is. here I will help you:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/compromise

We have 2 opposite sides, one wants unique/exclusive rewards, the other wants to get everything through a variety of content. How do we compromise? Put items behind both systems, that’s what a mutual concession is. If there are enough items behind both system then both sides can be happy, simple and effective solution.

Also, this is exactly how the game already works, so in effect they won’t be changing anything just keep using the same system they always did. It’s the best of both worlds, making everything available through all types of content is something we will never see, they’d need to change so many of the current rewards already, too much trouble, and besides it doesn’t have anything for the “other” side so it’s not a compromise. Putting everything behind specific content is the other side, which also isn’t a compromise. So, let’s take the best of both worlds, make a good compromise and finish it.

Nike.2631:

phys.7689:

Truth is it really boils down to wanting everything on ones own terms.

Absolutely. As long as you realize that’s true of EVERYONE participating in this discussion .

I will redirect to the word “compromise”, it’s a good word.

Ohoni.6057:

I’m willing to accept things as they are when I must, but if I see a better way, I will push for that change as best I’m able. I don’t see why anyone wouldn’t, that seems lazy or fatalistic to me. If you can improve something, seek to improve it as best you can, don’t give up just because you find it challenging or unlikely that you can succeed.

In the same way i’m trying to make sure that never happens, cause it will make the game way worse in my opinion, i think it could even destroy it. Thankfully i think the devs are on my side for now. I have to commend your for your effort but i do question how much you actually play this game when writing an essay on the forums nearly every day. I hope the devs do read and think about your post, but i also hope they realise you aren’t more valuable then the one person who comments, “wohoo raids i love it, thank you A-Net” and then never posts in this thread again.

Then again, at this point i think the devs have gotten your message loud and clear, i think they even know you by name around Arenanet now… So why keep going? It would be nice for some other people to be able to put an opinion in this topic, but all i see is a war of several people vs Ohoni, both sides won’t convince the other, that much is clear by now. I think this quotewar is smuthering other people’s opinion, on both sides, and there is only one guy who can stop it. See you ingame.

Nike.2631:

Which really makes me wonder why people in favor of the current plan are so defensive of it. “I’d like skins to not be locked behind raiding” repeated over and over for 20 pages is NOT going to make them change their minds. It’ll take a LOT more carefully presented reasoning that’s just not going on in this thread. Which is why I asked Ohoni what their endgame was, because at this point continued posting in this thread has nothing to do with actually achieving their desired outcome.

The discussion can move on the next stage sometime. And that is about putting more exclusive items in the game than we already have, then make those exclusives the focus of the game. It’s more “I’d like skins to not be locked behind specific content”, raids are mentioned because while it works like this for the rest of the game, raids having exclusive rewards sounds bad. There wasn’t as much discussion when they added the Balthazar back pack as exclusive from PVP tracks, or even the Lumi armor (complains about that were more because it was behind heavy RNG) yet the mere mention that raids will have exclusive rewards makes some posters go berserk.

Sykper.6583:

xarallei.4279:

Ohoni, just curious….what would you consider an “appropriate” alternative to get the reward exactly?

He’s already described it, an equivalent amount of time spent doing something else that attracts a player as opposed to one piece of content.

If they could put a scale on how many Bandit Crests could amount to how much time the average raider would spend in the Raid in question, that amount of crests would be the cost for the same Legendary Armor.

That’s his proposition, of course perhaps it doesn’t have to be Silverwastes, maybe it is Jumping Puzzles, or perhaps Dungeon runs. Anything else that makes it less exclusive than tying it strictly to a raid is something Ononi wants. That’s the only ‘solution’ he has suggested.

Other than the fact that the reward loses it’s real value (that comes with the content it is linked to) and it being a lesser more boring reward model that will result in grind.

There are also implementation-problems with it.

Let’s say they reward it for a raid and for a JP, then you still lock it out for anybody else.. So really the only way to make it accessible for everybody is to reward one currency for everything and then simply sell the item. Basically the way gold already functions for most items… the reason GW2’s reward model is such a big problem for the game.

The other problem is the balance.. You talk about the amount time spend grinding chest vs the amount spend in a raid. But it’s not a time thing.. Maybe somebody can do the raid in 1 hour and get the item.. but 1 hour of raiding (when it’s a good hard raid) cannot even closely be compared to 1 hour of grinding. So how would you put difficulty on a scale? and if you have that, how then to balance it against a brainless grind? The only way you sort of do it, is by only rewarding those items in raids and make them not account-bound so people can sell them.. What would be fine for some of the items, while other should be really excusive to the content simply for that value it’s add.

Devata.6589:

Sykper.6583:

xarallei.4279:

Ohoni, just curious….what would you consider an “appropriate” alternative to get the reward exactly?

He’s already described it, an equivalent amount of time spent doing something else that attracts a player as opposed to one piece of content.

If they could put a scale on how many Bandit Crests could amount to how much time the average raider would spend in the Raid in question, that amount of crests would be the cost for the same Legendary Armor.

That’s his proposition, of course perhaps it doesn’t have to be Silverwastes, maybe it is Jumping Puzzles, or perhaps Dungeon runs. Anything else that makes it less exclusive than tying it strictly to a raid is something Ononi wants. That’s the only ‘solution’ he has suggested.

Other than the fact that the reward loses it’s real value (that comes with the content it is linked to) and it being a lesser more boring reward model that will result in grind.

There are also implementation-problems with it.

Let’s say they reward it for a raid and for a JP, then you still lock it out for anybody else.. So really the only way to make it accessible for everybody is to reward one currency for everything and then simply sell the item. Basically the way gold already functions for most items… the reason GW2’s reward model is such a big problem for the game.

The other problem is the balance.. You talk about the amount time spend grinding chest vs the amount spend in a raod. But it’s not a time thing.. Maybe somebody can do the raid in 1 hour and get the item.. but 1 hour of raiding (when it’s a good hard raid) cannot even closely be compared to 1 hour of grinding. So how would you put difficulty on a scale? and if you have that, how then to balance it against a brainless grind? The only way you sort of do it, is by only rewarding those items in raids and make them not account-bound so people can sell them.. What would be fine for some of the items, while other should be really excusive to the content simply for that value it’s add.

ohoni doesnt want other players to set the prices on items, so basically anet would have to perfectly balance and figure out the relative values before people actually play the content.

phys.7689:

Devata.6589:

Sykper.6583:

xarallei.4279:

Ohoni, just curious….what would you consider an “appropriate” alternative to get the reward exactly?

He’s already described it, an equivalent amount of time spent doing something else that attracts a player as opposed to one piece of content.

If they could put a scale on how many Bandit Crests could amount to how much time the average raider would spend in the Raid in question, that amount of crests would be the cost for the same Legendary Armor.

That’s his proposition, of course perhaps it doesn’t have to be Silverwastes, maybe it is Jumping Puzzles, or perhaps Dungeon runs. Anything else that makes it less exclusive than tying it strictly to a raid is something Ononi wants. That’s the only ‘solution’ he has suggested.

Other than the fact that the reward loses it’s real value (that comes with the content it is linked to) and it being a lesser more boring reward model that will result in grind.

There are also implementation-problems with it.

Let’s say they reward it for a raid and for a JP, then you still lock it out for anybody else.. So really the only way to make it accessible for everybody is to reward one currency for everything and then simply sell the item. Basically the way gold already functions for most items… the reason GW2’s reward model is such a big problem for the game.

The other problem is the balance.. You talk about the amount time spend grinding chest vs the amount spend in a raod. But it’s not a time thing.. Maybe somebody can do the raid in 1 hour and get the item.. but 1 hour of raiding (when it’s a good hard raid) cannot even closely be compared to 1 hour of grinding. So how would you put difficulty on a scale? and if you have that, how then to balance it against a brainless grind? The only way you sort of do it, is by only rewarding those items in raids and make them not account-bound so people can sell them.. What would be fine for some of the items, while other should be really excusive to the content simply for that value it’s add.

ohoni doesnt want other players to set the prices on items, so basically anet would have to perfectly balance and figure out the relative values before people actually play the content.

Judging by how they overestimated the difficulty of Tequatl or the Triple Trouble, or even the Mad King’s Clocktower, we can safely assume that the devs cannot do that. The only way that could work if the rewards were a limited/timed exclusive, giving time for everyone, including the devs, to figure out those relative values.

Devata.6589:

The other problem is the balance.. You talk about the amount time spend grinding chest vs the amount spend in a raod.

This is from a couple of pages back in this thread, while mindless grind has about the same time requirement, the raid, or any exclusive content, might not. Today it takes you 4 hours, in a year it might take 20 minutes, so it’s impossible to balance the two different ways of earning the reward. One has a variable time frame, the other is rather fixed.

Unless the system re-adjust itself, say it needs either 100 tokens of some content or running the raid that at the moment takes 2 hours. If the raid becomes doable in 1 hour, then the tokens will drop to 50. Or I think that was the “proposed” solution.

It will require a metric ton of programming and coding to pull it off, and it will still not work well. Because you will still have to base the tokens on someone’s time, worst time, best time, average time? Which time exactly will be used to set the “appropriate” tokens. So yeah, it’s impossible to balance (and not worth coding it), so the whole idea of giving rewards based on time is flawed

No you are still wrong yet for some reason don’t get it, the volume of non-exclusive is all that matters. That’s what limiting frustration means and is.

Hmmm. . . how to explain this. . .

Ok, say you are a vegetarian. You only eat veggies. I have a restaurant, and I decide that I have separate menus for different people. I give you your menu, it’s the menu you have to order off of, who gets which menu is up to me. Now each menu contains ten out of twenty possible items I can serve, each person gets ten choices, so it’s all fair, right?

But let’s say that even though I serve seven different vegetarian dishes, the menu you end up with is one that includes maybe one veggie dish, one that you don’t especially care for, or maybe even none of them at all. They’re in the restaurant, I’m perfectly willing to serve them to other customers who have that item on their menus, but not to you, because it’s not on the menu that I arbitrarily assigned to you.

Would you find that your frustration has been “limited” by having access to those other ten dishes, the ones to which you couldn’t care less about having access, or would you feel that you were still frustrated by having your favorite meals available to other customers, but not to you, because I decided that they wouldn’t show up on your menu?

That’s just a terrible grind. You really don’t understand anything about what this “other” side wants right?

Well what do you expect, that you’ll be able to beat the thing once and get the grand prize? Unlikely, but if that were the case then you’d only have to run it once to get the ultimate title. I was positing the more likely scenario, the one you should accustom yourself to right now, that you likely will have to successfully run the raid dozens of times to get the full suite of rewards, so likewise, I would plan you’ve have to run exactly that number of times to earn the sweet, EXCLUSIVE title.

If you take issue with that idea, then it’s with receiving a title rather than an exclusive armor piece, and fair enough, but don’t complain about the method of earning it, the method would be equivalent to whatever method they employ for delivering the proposed armor pieces. Whatever hoops they make you jump through to get the armor, the title would take exactly those hoops, and be exactly as difficult to earn, no more, no less.

We have 2 opposite sides, one wants unique/exclusive rewards, the other wants to get everything through a variety of content. How do we compromise? Put items behind both systems, that’s what a mutual concession is.

But that’s not a compromise. You get everything you want, you get your exclusive items. I don’t get what I want, I don’t get access to all items. If any of the items I want are exclusive, then I can’t get them, if any of the items you want to be exclusive, aren’t exclusive, you can still get those items. How does this seem like “splitting the difference” to you?

Again, the only way the “some items will be exclusive, everyone;s happy” theory would actually work is if each player could decide for himself which of the items would be excluded from him.

Also, this is exactly how the game already works, so in effect they won’t be changing anything just keep using the same system they always did.

Again, standing up for the status quo is still choosing a side, it is not a neutral position, it is not superior to pushing for a change.

In the same way i’m trying to make sure that never happens, cause it will make the game way worse in my opinion, i think it could even destroy it.

Yeah, and fair enough. I disagree with you, but I don’t disagree with your right to disagree with me. Make your case to the best of your ability, and let the best case hold true.

I hope the devs do read and think about your post, but i also hope they realise you aren’t more valuable then the one person who comments, “wohoo raids i love it, thank you A-Net” and then never posts in this thread again.

Oh, sure, we’re both aware of that. This isn’t a poll-by-postcount. My hope would be that I could convince them by the merits of my words, not by the volume of them, but volume gives me as many opportunities as possible to stumble onto the right combination of them. And of course I would expect them to keep watch of their own internal metrics as to who plays what, who quits over what reasons, etc. to decide whether change is warranted, not base it off of how many people take each side in a forum discussion.

t would be nice for some other people to be able to put an opinion in this topic, but all i see is a war of several people vs Ohoni, both sides won’t convince the other, that much is clear by now. I think this quotewar is smuthering other people’s opinion, on both sides, and there is only one guy who can stop it. See you ingame.

Well, it’s never a good idea to assume. Even if they’re aware of the discussion, which alone isn’t safe to assume, they might not be convinced by it yet. Anyone who has a position on either side is welcome to enter into it. Nobody is stopping them. I mean, you can’t argue that one prolific poster is an impediment to conversation, while simultaneously believing that a raid is not a serious impediment to acquiring the armor it rewards, right?

Personally I would have preferred to stick to the thread that was only about exclusive rewards, but they merged it into this one, so this i the thread that’s continuing the conversation for the time being. Other people can discuss other sub-topics though, and have done so throughout.

Let’s say they reward it for a raid and for a JP, then you still lock it out for anybody else.. So really the only way to make it accessible for everybody is to reward one currency for everything and then simply sell the item. Basically the way gold already functions for most items… the reason GW2’s reward model is such a big problem for the game.

Except that it would have some core differences, namely 1. It would only be rewarded from some activities, more than any specific rewards, but less than those that reward gold, 2. The currency could not be purchased with real money. 3. You could not use the currency to earn more currency, it would all be one-way transactions, so all currency earned would come from actual gameplay activities. 4. The purchases would not be from other players or subject to supply and demand, so pricing would remain consistent.

Overall I see that as a highly functional model, and not much different from models already in effect in Dungeons and Fractals, just unified.

Maybe somebody can do the raid in 1 hour and get the item.. but 1 hour of raiding (when it’s a good hard raid) cannot even closely be compared to 1 hour of grinding. So how would you put difficulty on a scale? and if you have that, how then to balance it against a brainless grind?

It’s hard to guess at the appropriate balance without knowing anything about the actual time and effort that raids will take, but I’m sure they can reach a solution that raiders will not be happy about, but that they still understand is fair.

ohoni doesnt want other players to set the prices on items, so basically anet would have to perfectly balance and figure out the relative values before people actually play the content.

They wouldn’t have to get it perfect, they’d just have to get it close. Nothing’s perfect and the perfect should not be the enemy of the good. Also, this was discussed in prior threads, but they can take their time with the alternative system, so long as they announce that it’s being worked on. They can collect player data before figuring out the exact exchange rates. If it were me, I would implement the currency distribution around the same time as the raids, collect data on how the raids are going, collect data on how much currency people are acquiring, and only then decide what the exchange rates should be. And they can always adjust them if need be, but only if need be, not at the whims of the market.

Judging by how they overestimated the difficulty of Tequatl or the Triple Trouble, or even the Mad King’s Clocktower, we can safely assume that the devs cannot do that. The only way that could work if the rewards were a limited/timed exclusive, giving time for everyone, including the devs, to figure out those relative values.

But if that argument applies to my proposal, it applies equally to the current plan, in that if they are that bad at judging things, then people will be getting raid armor from raids “too easy” too. Why would that be better than them getting them from other content “too easy?”

Today it takes you 4 hours, in a year it might take 20 minutes, so it’s impossible to balance the two different ways of earning the reward. One has a variable time frame, the other is rather fixed.

In 2012 GW2 cost $60. In 2014 it cost $10 much of the time, and $30 the rest. Same principle applies here, if, over time, the content becomes easier, the rewards become more available via that method, then the cost of the rewards via currency can reduce as well. It should be balanced based on the average clear times. I posted a thing a few threads back about how they should have leaderboards for the raids and raid-like content, and balance the alternative systems based off the results of those leaderboards.

Hmmm. . . how to explain this. . .

Bad example is just bad. It’s a simple thing that you for some reason don’t understand. The whole thing about irrelevant examples is what made me re-post on this thread a couple of pages ago. Volume is the only thing needed.

Well what do you expect, that you’ll be able to beat the thing once and get the grand prize?

No.

If you take issue with that idea, then it’s with receiving a title rather than an exclusive armor piece, and fair enough, but don’t complain about the method of earning it, the method would be equivalent to whatever method they employ for delivering the proposed armor pieces. Whatever hoops they make you jump through to get the armor, the title would take exactly those hoops, and be exactly as difficult to earn, no more, no less.

It’s not the same. 18 different armor sets that I choose, compared to a series of titles that come once you grind the content enough times. Apples and oranges, completely different.

But that’s not a compromise.

That’s exactly what a compromise is. Try to look up the definition of it. We both get what we want in varying degrees. If you want to go further, in my ideal system there would be very very few items behind multiple content types so I’m willing to settle with just a small percentage of them, let’s say 10%. Your idea gives me 0% and 100% to you, my idea gives 90% to you and 10% to me. That’s compromise.

Again, the only way the “some items will be exclusive, everyone;s happy” theory would actually work is if each player could decide for himself which of the items would be excluded from him.

Again, nope. It’s just the volume that counts, simple common sense. The wants of individuals are irrelevant.

Again, standing up for the status quo is still choosing a side, it is not a neutral position, it is not superior to pushing for a change.

Again, do not change what doesn’t need to change.

But if that argument applies to my proposal, it applies equally to the current plan, in that if they are that bad at judging things, then people will be getting raid armor from raids “too easy” too. Why would that be better than them getting them from other content “too easy?”

if their raid proves to be “too easy” then they should come out and say: “sorry we failed”

In 2012 GW2 cost $60. In 2014 it cost $10 much of the time, and $30 the rest.

Again with the irrelevant examples?

Ohoni.6057:

The problem is similar to a discussion I did see about guild-halls. That small guilds should also have access to guild-halls. That is fine but from what size are you even considered a guild? I would say 15 but in that discussion within no-time people said they wanted a guild-hall for there personal guild. If you disagree you where of-course somebody who did think he was entitled to stuff and other weren’t.

Why not? You can do it in Wildstar. Of course it would be harder to max out a personal guild hall, but no reason you shouldn’t be able to make one.

The answer was in the part you cut out.

But the real reason is because if 1 person can get a guild-hall, a guild-hall is not a guild-hall anymore but it becomes personal housing.

Ohoni.6057:

Same with reward.. If you win at a match you get a medal, representing the sport you won at.. That is a reward. If you work, you earn money (that sort of is a reward) and then you buy stuff.. but that stuff is stuff, not a reward and that is how it is in GW2.

And an armor skin is not a medal, a medal is a medal. If they want to give raiders a medal, I’m all for it, if they want to give them exclusive skins, we have a disagreement.

A armor skin very well can serve as and even should serve as a medal.

That is what adds the value to that item, that is what makes obtaining it more interesting. In an MMORPG at least. If not, what is the fun of an MMORPG.. You get a game to grind / buy items in that game to change the look that you only use to grind more items? That is not fun, that is boring.. heck that is not even a game. A game gives you challenges to overcome and in an MMO rewards those challenges with items.

Not rewarding directly from content makes all challenges optional what really means it’s not a game anymore.

Let’s see how wiki defines a game.

“A game is structured playing, usually undertaken for enjoyment and sometimes used as an educational tool. ~ Key components of games are goals, rules, challenge, and interaction. Games generally involve mental or physical stimulation, and often both. Many games help develop practical skills, serve as a form of exercise, or otherwise perform an educational, simulational, or psychological role.”

You are basically asking to remove all those key components of a game or at least make them optional.. leaving you with something that not resembles a game.. but resembles work. We have had that to much already.

maddoctor.2738:

Ohoni.6057:

The raiders arent asking that every item be available through raids, The unique item lovers arent asking that every item be unique.

Both true points, but also true, the raiders are asking that some items be unique to raids, and the unique item lovers are asking that some items be unique, both positions are diametrically opposed to the idea that players should be able to get the items they want via a variety of means. You might agree with those positions, but do not portray them as being “more reasonable,” they are just on the opposite side of the spectrum.

You should learn what a compromise is. here I will help you:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/compromise

We have 2 opposite sides, one wants unique/exclusive rewards, the other wants to get everything through a variety of content. How do we compromise? Put items behind both systems, that’s what a mutual concession is. If there are enough items behind both system then both sides can be happy, simple and effective solution.

Also, this is exactly how the game already works, so in effect they won’t be changing anything just keep using the same system they always did. It’s the best of both worlds, making everything available through all types of content is something we will never see, they’d need to change so many of the current rewards already, too much trouble, and besides it doesn’t have anything for the “other” side so it’s not a compromise. Putting everything behind specific content is the other side, which also isn’t a compromise. So, let’s take the best of both worlds, make a good compromise and finish it.

Fine let’s do is 50 / 50. I would be happy with that. Don’t forget, currently it’s more like 90 / 10 where 90% you can on paper get in any way by earning gold doing the content you like (while realistically only by grinding gold) and 10 % is really behind content. I would be for 50 / 50. Making sure also the “best” items are at the very least be 50 / 50, not that 90% of the best items are still currency / gold grind.

Bad example is just bad. It’s a simple thing that you for some reason don’t understand. The whole thing about irrelevant examples is what made me re-post on this thread a couple of pages ago. Volume is the only thing needed.

You can keep repeating that, but it makes it no more true.

It’s not the same. 18 different armor sets that I choose, compared to a series of titles that come once you grind the content enough times. Apples and oranges, completely different.

Well, it’s not 18 armor sets, it’s 18 pieces, only six of which any one character can wear, and there’s a solid chance that you won’t be able to choose you’ll be subject to RNG, but whatever. Let’s say there are 18 total titles, each reflective of a specific encounter within the three wings, and each earned by meeting the exact same conditions necessary to earn a specific piece of armor. They are identical in every way to receiving a piece of armor, other than that they are titles, and not armor. Basically, each time you would receive a piece of armor in whatever the current methodology is, you would instead receive a title specific to that armor piece, In fact, I’m being generous, you get BOTH the title AND the armor piece, all that would be different is that other people could also earn that armor piece elsewhere (but never the title, that’s yours).

So again, you can say that you don’t value titles as a reward, fair opinion to have, but let’s leave methodology out of it, assume that the method is 100% identical.

That’s exactly what a compromise is. Try to look up the definition of it. We both get what we want in varying degrees.

Yes, but when one side gets 100% and the other side gets 0%, then that is not a compromise.

Your idea gives me 0% and 100% to you, my idea gives 90% to you and 10% to me. That’s compromise.

If you believe those numbers can be accurate then you don’t understand my goals at all. Reread the bit about the restaurant, I’ll give you a hit (it’s a metaphor for the game).

Again, nope. It’s just the volume that counts, simple common sense. The wants of individuals are irrelevant.

The wants of individuals is the only thing that’s relevant, on either side of this discussion.

You have your individual wants, I have mine, what matters is the total number of individual wants of the players, and how many add up on each side of the question. The side with more individual wants should be favored, although efforts should be made to please both as best as possible, understanding that you can’t make both perfectly happy.

Again, do not change what doesn’t need to change.

Or do change what does need to change, same argument either way, you have your side, I have mine.

Again with the irrelevant examples?

If you missed the relevance, try reading it again. The point is that if the raids become easier, thus “devaluing” the skill/time hurdle involved in acquiring the items that way, then the alternative methods can become cheaper accordingly. This is relatively common, with products going on sale as they become more common or less desirable.

The answer was in the part you cut out.

Yeah, I got that bit, but what’s the harm in personal housing? I’d think people would like that. That’s not an answer, it’s a non-sequitur.

That is what adds the value to that item, that is what makes obtaining it more interesting.

Perhaps, but you don’t need to gild the lily. The item should be good enough to stand on its own merits, it doesn’t need to have added value.

In an MMORPG at least. If not, what is the fun of an MMORPG.. You get a game to grind / buy items in that game to change the look that you only use to grind more items? That is not fun, that is boring.. heck that is not even a game. A game gives you challenges to overcome and in an MMO rewards those challenges with items.

Then what have you been doing playing this game every day for the past three years?

Not rewarding directly from content makes all challenges optional what really means it’s not a game anymore.

That makes no sense, of course all challenges should be optional. That’s part of the fun of an MMO, that it gives you a wide variety of things you can do and you can freely pick and choose the ones that most interest you. If you enjoy high challenge, you do high challenge. If you enjoy casual play, you play casually.

You are basically asking to remove all those key components of a game or at least make them optional.. leaving you with something that not resembles a game.. but resembles work. We have had that to much already.

The system I described would still involve all those components. It would involve many goals, with their own rules, and their own challenges, some harsh challenges, some easier challenges, and of course interaction would be the most important thing through all of them. the only thing that would be different is that it wouldn’t try to impose a single standard of challenge on all players, it would allow players to choose the activities that suited themselves.

In a way, there are few MMOs out there that are a single “game” by the way you seem to be using the definition (and is not, btw, the definition you cited). An MMO is too complex for that (as are numerous single player games). Most games, especially MMOs, are more like a linked construct of numerous minigames, there is the sPvP minigame, the WvW minigame, the Citadel of Fire minigame, the Twilight Arbor minigame, the Queensdale minigame, the crafting minigame, etc., a lot of different games, some similar, many with almost nothing to do with the others, but all happening in a shared space, where the efforts at completing one can translate over to the others. I think it’s great that there are so many options, but if you’re forced into all of them then it becomes oppressive, and ultimately destructive. The great thing about a large menu is choice, not that you have to eat everything on it until you throw up.

Ohoni.6057:

That’s just a terrible grind. You really don’t understand anything about what this “other” side wants right?

Well what do you expect, that you’ll be able to beat the thing once and get the grand prize? Unlikely, but if that were the case then you’d only have to run it once to get the ultimate title. I was positing the more likely scenario, the one you should accustom yourself to right now, that you likely will have to successfully run the raid dozens of times to get the full suite of rewards, so likewise, I would plan you’ve have to run exactly that number of times to earn the sweet, EXCLUSIVE title.

In a good system you can work towards a reward in a reasonable way (so doable RNG is an option, extremely bad RNG is not as an example) and you might in fact be able to get it the first run while that is unlikely. They game needs to trigger you to do it multiple times but not simply by saying.. you need to do it x times. Then it becomes boring and feels grindy.. That is why currencies are a boring system but your “do it 20 times to get that title” is basically the same and just as bad.

Your examples of “complete side activity” or “complete it under x time” are good examples of how it could work.

Ohoni.6057:

But that’s not a compromise. You get everything you want, you get your exclusive items. I don’t get what I want, I don’t get access to all items.

No, if I had what I want, than pretty much all interesting items where behind specific content. Because that makes it an interesting game.

With a compromise we both don’t get what we want but there is something in the middle you will then pick.. Not always the best but it is a compromise.

Ohoni.6057:

If any of the items I want are exclusive, then I can’t get them, if any of the items you want to be exclusive, aren’t exclusive, you can still get those items.

It’s more about the reward model itself than it is about the ability to get the item. Also you would very much be able to get the item, you would just have to do content you don’t like to get it.. and that is also the same way for the other side.. When we have it your way it basically becomes grinding some currency to buy the item… that happens to be doing something I / many of the other side don’t like.

Bad example is just bad. It’s a simple thing that you for some reason don’t understand. The whole thing about irrelevant examples is what made me re-post on this thread a couple of pages ago. Volume is the only thing needed.

You can keep repeating that, but it makes it no more true.

It’s the other way around. You can keep repeating that it’s not, but in reality it’s true.

Well, it’s not 18 armor sets, it’s 18 pieces, only six of which any one character can wear, and there’s a solid chance that you won’t be able to choose you’ll be subject to RNG, but whatever. Let’s say there are 18 total titles, each reflective of a specific encounter within the three wings, and each earned by meeting the exact same conditions necessary to earn a specific piece of armor.

Yes pieces, not sets. And it’s still not the same. You can’t get the title twice, unless you make them character bound, which a serious design swift from the rest of the game (and dangerous)

So again, you can say that you don’t value titles as a reward, fair opinion to have, but let’s leave methodology out of it, assume that the method is 100% identical.

A title/mini and armor don’t have the same value. And YOU are the one who say that, not me. You would do anything to make the armor available, but not the title, why is it?

That’s exactly what a compromise is. Try to look up the definition of it. We both get what we want in varying degrees.

Yes, but when one side gets 100% and the other side gets 0%, then that is not a compromise.

Exactly, with your idea one side gets 0% and the other gets 100%, while the other idea one side get 10% and the other 90%. That’s what a compromise is and why your idea isn’t one.

Your idea gives me 0% and 100% to you, my idea gives 90% to you and 10% to me. That’s compromise.

If you believe those numbers can be accurate then you don’t understand my goals at all. Reread the bit about the restaurant, I’ll give you a hit (it’s a metaphor for the game).

You have no goals actually other than trolling and wasting everyone’s time, that’s a given. But why aren’t they accurate?

Again, nope. It’s just the volume that counts, simple common sense. The wants of individuals are irrelevant.

The wants of individuals is the only thing that’s relevant, on either side of this discussion.

Nope, the wants of the individuals are irrelevant.

The side with more individual wants should be favored, although efforts should be made to please both as best as possible, understanding that you can’t make both perfectly happy.

Not really, that’s non sense. A solution (a compromise) should please both sides, your solution doesn’t, mine does, understanding that can make both perfectly happy.

Again, do not change what doesn’t need to change.

Or do change what does need to change, same argument either way, you have your side, I have mine.

Yes I need to change that, it does need to change, go as far away of your solution as possible.

Again with the irrelevant examples?

If you missed the relevance, try reading it again. The point is that if the raids become easier, thus “devaluing” the skill/time hurdle involved in acquiring the items that way, then the alternative methods can become cheaper accordingly. This is relatively common, with products going on sale as they become more common or less desirable.

Still irrelevant. Try giving an example of an actual video game that follows 100% your “solution”, that might be relevant. Everything else is an excuse.

That is what adds the value to that item, that is what makes obtaining it more interesting.

Perhaps, but you don’t need to gild the lily. The item should be good enough to stand on its own merits, it doesn’t need to have added value.

Wrong. And this is what you still don’t get after all these pages and back and forth. Not everyone thinks that rewards = just skins. Once you understand that, maybe we you will accept the exclusive rewards and move on.

In an MMORPG at least. If not, what is the fun of an MMORPG.. You get a game to grind / buy items in that game to change the look that you only use to grind more items? That is not fun, that is boring.. heck that is not even a game. A game gives you challenges to overcome and in an MMO rewards those challenges with items.

Then what have you been doing playing this game every day for the past three years?

Doing the content that actually DOES have exclusive rewards?

Not rewarding directly from content makes all challenges optional what really means it’s not a game anymore.

That makes no sense, of course all challenges should be optional.

That makes no sense. Maybe you also need to read what a game is. You have no clue of what a game is, what game balance is and what game reward is.

You are basically asking to remove all those key components of a game or at least make them optional.. leaving you with something that not resembles a game.. but resembles work. We have had that to much already.

The system I described would still involve all those components.

No it won’t, your system isn’t suitable for a game.

The great thing about a large menu is choice, not that you have to eat everything on it until you throw up.

Your examples are getting more irrelevant by the minute.

No, if I had what I want, than pretty much all interesting items where behind specific content. Because that makes it an interesting game.

With a compromise we both don’t get what we want but there is something in the middle you will then do.. Not always the best but it is a compromise.

Ok, so you’re giving up at least a little, I’ll grant you that, but understand that the entire point from my side is to be able to get the pieces I do want, so it becomes meaningless if any of those pieces are locked behind unobtainium. It’s ok, from my perspective, if some of the items are exclusive, so long as none of those items are ones I would have wanted in the first place. and of course other people would want and not want different items, and I’d want them to be similarly hooked up.

The difference between our two positions is, any item I claim and say “no, my side gets this item,” you can have that thing too. Whereas with your side, any item you say “no, my side gets this one,” that means my side doesn’t get it. You can see how those two sides are not in balance, right?

Btw, did you read my offer of a few pages back that Raiders could get a raid-exclusive Outfit? Would that satisfy your itch? Like how about this, the raid can drop a total of 18 armor pieces. Any of these armor pieces, individually, could be earned through other means, identical in appearance, but they would have a slightly different name. They would be like how there are Precursors, and then there are weapons that are identical to the Precursor, but worthless in the Legendary recipe, right? So you could keep that Raid armor, OR, you could throw the pieces into the Mystic Forge in some combination, and out pops a box full of armor bits (ie you get back the armor you threw in) AND a unique Outfit, one that can ‘t be earned anywhere else, and can’t be earned by chucking in the “knock off” armor.

Would having a unique Outfit be fancy enough?

When we have it your way it basically becomes grinding some currency to buy the item… that happens to be doing something I don’t like.

But keep in mind, I don’t remove ANY methods. Whatever methods are or will be already available, those stay in, I just add in the token exchange on top of it. The tokens would be balanced so that the intent is that the original methods, whatever they may be, should be more efficient for anyone that has any interest in doing that thing, the alternate methods would only be the back-up, the last resort. If you every had any interest in pursuing the original method, then my system should not interfere with that in any way, all it would do is open up new avenues to other people.

Yes pieces, not sets. And it’s still not the same. You can’t get the title twice, unless you make them character bound, which a serious design swift from the rest of the game (and dangerous)

Yeah, but there’s not a lot of point in getting the armor twice either. I mean, you have the skin in your wardrobe, so if you have an Ele, a Mes, and a Necro, and you get one set of Legendary Armor, you can toss the skin itself onto the other two right that minute. Now you could say that you want to fully outfit them in pink armor, but you could do that under my system. You would only get the title the first time, just as you would only be getting the skin the first time, but you would also be getting the actual armor both times, so you’d still be collecting spares. Nothing has changed there.

So basically, your argument would apply equally to either system, for however much it may or may not be worth.

A title/mini and armor don’t have the same value. And YOU are the one who say that, not me. You would do anything to make the armor available, but not the title, why is it?

No, personally I agree that they are not equal, but there’s two things to consider here.The first is, people say that they care about the prestige of having an exclusive thing that other players can’t have. If it’s about the prestige, then a title works just as well as armor skin, it is a mark that you have something that other players do not. And you will get the skin yourself, so if you want to have that too, then you do, right? So through this method, the only thing you do not get, is the right to lord over others that they don’t have a skin that they want. And ultimately I’m not too choked up about you lacking that.

The second is, yes, I am talking about diminishing your reward from what it could possibly be, but do you really deserve more than that? What are you owed for running a raid? Whatever the devs choose to give you, or not give you. If they say you’re owed a unique skin, you’re owed a unique skin. If they say you just get a title, you just get a title. You might not be as happy with just getting Legendary armor, a difficult to acquire skin, and a unique title, as you would with a unique skin too, but you should be happy enough. If that prize package alone is not enough to coerce you into a raid, then one begins to question how much anyone really wants to do raids in the first place, and whether that effort might be better spent designing content that people actually want to do.