As long as ascended stats will be the highest stat in game, which is something everyone in this game can get, then it shouldn’t matter if you cant get X item from a specific content that you dont invest time in.
If that’s your opinion for yourself, then that’s fine, but don’t try to project it onto others. Other people are allowed to care about different things than you care about.
It’s also worth considering that Legendary weapons aren’t THAT hard to earn, aside from the gold cost. People cite that it takes “aspects of all parts of the game,” and that’s true, but only tiny bits of them in many cases. What does a Legendary weapon take?
Most obviously it takes World Completion, which doesn’t even include WvW anymore, but even then it only required you to map transfer or get lucky on color rotation and you could earn that no problem. The actual effort of PvE map completion took the most time of anything, but was hardly highly challenging, especially in a group. My current guild still does “map expeditions” every now and then where they move in a herd and clear a map in about an hour or so.
Gift of Battle takes 500 badges, which was once fairly difficult for non-WvWers (but even pacifists could farm them from the JPs), but with achievement points even non-WvWers have a few thousand badges lying around. They also added a requirement of rank 14, but again that is fairly trivial to reach. I’ve spent a grant total of maybe a few hours of sporadic WvWing since they added ranks, and have that rank already. Absolutely no skill required either (although it helps).
Gift of [Dungeons] takes 500 dungeon tokens, which means running a total of eight daily dungeon paths. At most this would take you eight days, as little as three (or one if you insisted on grinding the dungeon all day for the minimal rewards). It could instead require a little over two runs through any dungeon PvP track. Most dungeons have at least one path that is easy to do, and worst case scenario you can get carried.
Then you need a ton of obsidian shards, which can be earned relatively trivially any number fo ways by this point, and you need around 350 spirit shards, which are again relatively trivial to earn (I believe I have 3000 of them at the moment).
And then there’s the gold. Oh the gold. Lots of gold. You need at least 100.5g in cash, for cash-only items, and then you need a couple thousand gold in precursors and materials. Whether you hand collect those materials (which are mostly no more challenging than SW farming), or whether you farm gold and buy them, it’s all currency exchange, and can be managed through just about any method or area of the game.
So that’s it, that’s all you need to do to get the “best weapon in the game.” Nothing particularly skill-based in any way, only a few things that are particularly time consuming, and most of it based on gold on hand.
I would have no problem with them adding a path to Legendary Armor that was equally difficult and time consuming (although ideally far less gold costs involved). I think a fair balance would be that each Legendary Weapon would be equivalent to 2-3 pieces of Legendary Armor, since you need more armor than weapons.
but your beef isnt that the content is hard, its that its content you dont like. There a ton of people who hate map completion with a passion. regardless how easy or difficult it is, legendaries have always been about doing lots of specific things. It has never been about doing whatever you want unless you were buying on the market, and to be honest the fact that legendaries were tied to the market has never been good in the way in which it effects the process.
As long as ascended stats will be the highest stat in game, which is something everyone in this game can get, then it shouldn’t matter if you cant get X item from a specific content that you dont invest time in.
If that’s your opinion for yourself, then that’s fine, but don’t try to project it onto others. Other people are allowed to care about different things than you care about.
Yes thats my opinion for a healthy GW2. The game is already very friendly and forgiving, it has much of that, but Anet wants it to cater to many playertypes which generally an mmorpg is all about. That’s how we see Growth, giving reasons for players to keep logging in. And we may currently have little “hard stuff” or something to work for, which my previous post provides a fine balance between.
Everyone is on an equal footing statwise, which means none is excluded, it comes down to your own will and skill. The latter is hardly needed currently, and now some chose to complain that they have to progress and work towards specific skins through X content. Their loss I say.
but your beef isnt that the content is hard, its that its content you dont like. There a ton of people who hate map completion with a passion. regardless how easy or difficult it is, legendaries have always been about doing lots of specific things.
But again, that goes back to the whole “well the current situation has things I don’t like, so it’s fair for the next situation to have things you don’t like,” and I reject that argument entirely. My point isn’t that the current system is perfect, quite the opposite if you’re paying attention. I wouldn’t mind in the lead if they had something similar to the current implementation, but with a lot more potential substitutions.
Hate World Completion? Fine. Maybe allow people to get Gift of Exploration by clearing every dungeon path and turning in a few thousand assorted dungeon tokens. Maybe allow people to get it by getting an achievement for clearing every Keep/Tower/Camp on the WvW maps and some badges. Maybe allow people to get it by winning on every sPvP map and completing some complex PvP meta-achievement. Alternatives are great.
My point was that the existing system is not crazy difficult, so it should not be held up as some standard of how “hardcore” a task earning a Legendary is supposed to be. It’s mostly time, in many cases very small amounts of time, and large amounts of cash. It’s meant for people who vaguely play the game for large amounts of time, it’s not intended for the “best PvPers,” “best WvWers,” “best PvEers,” or even “best all-rounders,” it’s just meant for people that play the game a lot and dabble a bit in everything at least a few times.
And if Legendary armor turns out to be about “doing a lot of specific things,” and running raids is only a part of that, then I could live to accept that if I only have to spend as much time and effort running raids (including the potential for failure) as I spent running dungeons for my weapon, but I suspect I might be expected to run raids considerably longer than that, and that’s what worries me.
It has never been about doing whatever you want unless you were buying on the market, and to be honest the fact that legendaries were tied to the market has never been good in the way in which it effects the process.
I fully agree on that, but even if you don’t buy it outright, the market is likely to play a larger role in crafting a Legendary Weapon than anything else you’ll be doing for it.
Yes thats my opinion for a healthy GW2. The game is already very friendly and forgiving, it has much of that, but Anet wants it to cater to many playertypes which generally an mmorpg is all about. That’s how we see Growth, giving reasons for players to keep logging in. And we may currently have little “hard stuff” or something to work for, which my previous post provides a fine balance between.
And nobody’s arguing that they can’t add “hard stuff” for those players, just that it should not provide exclusive rewards. And you can personally not care about those rewards, but that doesn’t override someone else who does care.
I would personally like to see legendary armor obtainable in the three “game types” (for example): spvp (higher level tier), pve (raids) and wvw (achievements). The best would be to make the pieces and the final armor also tradeable in trading post. This would make it possible to get by many types of gameplay. And please don’t hate me for the fact that trading is and should always stay as a part of every mmo.
I would personally like to see legendary armor obtainable in the three “game types” (for example): spvp (higher level tier), pve (raids) and wvw (achievements).
The problem is, people keep lumping “raids” in with “PvE.” I do not consider it to be just a subset of PvE as a general activity, any more than I consider WvW and sPvP to both just be “PvP.” If they allow you to earn it via WvW and PvP as coequal tasks to raiding, then I would also expect to be able to earn it through the open world PvE content that is the hallmark of GW2.
I would personally like to see legendary armor obtainable in the three “game types” (for example): spvp (higher level tier), pve (raids) and wvw (achievements).
The problem is, people keep lumping “raids” in with “PvE.” I do not consider it to be just a subset of PvE as a general activity, any more than I consider WvW and sPvP to both just be “PvP.” If they allow you to earn it via WvW and PvP as coequal tasks to raiding, then I would also expect to be able to earn it through the open world PvE content that is the hallmark of GW2.
Those were only examples I gave there and tried to keep them in same category in dedication. As many people here actually want the legendary armor to be more of an achievement than a milestone. I would see open world content here as par with spvp reward track or wvw badges/rank (edge of the mists).
I am as casual as they come, and hell will freeze over before I do a raid in GW2. Even so, I think it makes perfect sense if legendary awards are only available from completing raids. This content is lined up to be the hardest to be found anywhere in the game, so why shouldn’t it be rewarded with the best rewards in game? The hard-core raiders deserve that kind of progression.
Stockholm Syndrome is no reason to do anything.
Stockholm Syndrome? You are being condescending, is it possible I just have a different but just as valid point of view as you have?
It is healthy in an online game to have things that only the top players can acquire. I believe this actually motivates ALL players, including those who aren’t “top” players, to play the game more, because there is something symbolic of your status that you can strive towards, even if you never get there.
Raids only work if you lock something desirable and exclusive behind them. If you can get the shinies some other way, the raiders get upset because there aren’t enough people to raid with them.
And here I thought people just wanted the challenge for its own sake… or at least that’s what people kept claiming anyway.
Otherwise raids would become like Triple Trouble, where no one does them except large guilds.
Have you ever thought that perhaps Triple Trouble is not being done by most of the player population not due to the lack of rewards, but because it is not the kind of content that most of the player population wants to play? If the content would be empty without exclusive reward incentives, then it just means that the content is that bad, and should be changed into something more people would like to participate in. Moreover, if you make that assumption before that content even lands, it means you agree the content is not what the people really want. But if so, then it should not have been implemented in the first place.
I disagree. Different rewards should be specific to different content, and should match the difficulty of said content.
In that case the best rewards should come exclusively from PvP, and raids would have to make do with merely mediocre ones. Somehow i don’t think it would go well with the raid proposers.
It is healthy in an online game to have things that only the top players can acquire. I believe this actually motivates ALL players, including those who aren’t “top” players, to play the game more, because there is something symbolic of your status that you can strive towards, even if you never get there.
Oh yes, it’s symbolic all right. It symbolizes the division between “elite pros” and the unworthy masses. It symbolizes the toxicity this division causes. And it is a symbol that actively striving to create that toxicity is not only fine, but actually something to strive for.
I wouldn’t call that healthy, however.
Question….. How often do you change your gear to change your stats?
I have all Classes at 80, each class has a minimum of 3 sets of armor, some as many as 6. Depending on the situation and what I’m doing, build & gear can change frequently. You want to PvE ? That’s 1 set, want to speed clear a dungeon ? that’s another set, running in a zerg in WvW ? that’s another set, want to run in an organized guild ? yup another set, slow night and planning to run solo ? another set, slow night but couple friends on so running small man ? again it’s another set.
To be the most optimal in each setting it requires different stats.
in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns
Posted by: Windu The Forbidden One.6045
I just hope that raiders won’t all be like
“+5k AP, Full Ascended and X build or GTFO”
Then I definitely won’t be getting Legendary armor. I have no problem having to actually work for something as special as legendary armor, but I’ll be kitten ed if I’m going to put up with such toxicity weeks at the time.
Those were only examples I gave there and tried to keep them in same category in dedication. As many people here actually want the legendary armor to be more of an achievement than a milestone. I would see open world content here as par with spvp reward track or wvw badges/rank (edge of the mists).
Yeah, but the thing is, the people happy with Legendary armor locked behind Raids are likely the same sort of people who are hardcore into PvP or WvW. Rewaring them is a bit like saying "We have heard that you guys are upset about hedgefund managers making the most money, so we’ve decided to also give money to yacht aficionados and a people who own at least three homes. I hope that satisfies you peasants. "
It is healthy in an online game to have things that only the top players can acquire. I believe this actually motivates ALL players, including those who aren’t “top” players, to play the game more, because there is something symbolic of your status that you can strive towards, even if you never get there.
Nope. Common misconception, but total trickledown nonsense.
It is healthy in an online game to have things that only the top players can acquire. I believe this actually motivates ALL players, including those who aren’t “top” players, to play the game more, because there is something symbolic of your status that you can strive towards, even if you never get there.
Oh yes, it’s symbolic all right. It symbolizes the division between “elite pros” and the unworthy masses. It symbolizes the toxicity this division causes. And it is a symbol that actively striving to create that toxicity is not only fine, but actually something to strive for.
I wouldn’t call that healthy, however.
Well, not really. There are plenty of raiding guilds in other games who aren’t “elite” or toxic at all – they have just organised themselves and beat some content, and thus they are rewarded for it. It’s nice to be rewarded for doing difficult content that required a lot of effort and organisation. It doesn’t automatically mean all raiders have a toxic attitude and look down on those who don’t have the best rewards.
It is healthy in an online game to have things that only the top players can acquire. I believe this actually motivates ALL players, including those who aren’t “top” players, to play the game more, because there is something symbolic of your status that you can strive towards, even if you never get there.
Nope. Common misconception, but total trickledown nonsense.
As you appear to know everything definitively, please explain to me what kind of reward structure motivates people to play in an MMO, using the undisputed most popular MMO of all time World of Warcraft as your supporting case. Thanks.
(edited by ozma.3498)
Raids only work if you lock something desirable and exclusive behind them. If you can get the shinies some other way, the raiders get upset because there aren’t enough people to raid with them.
If there aren’t enough players that enjoy raiding then the developers shouldn’t waste time developing content for raiders. If there are enough players that enjoy raiding to justify making content for them, then they will play raids without exclusive rewards, so long as the quantity of rewards they receive is not less per unit of time than other activities. Any argument made in favor of the necessity of exclusive raid rewards is ONLY an argument against implementing raids at all.
I wholeheartedly agree.
Question….. How often do you change your gear to change your stats?
I have all Classes at 80, each class has a minimum of 3 sets of armor, some as many as 6. Depending on the situation and what I’m doing, build & gear can change frequently. You want to PvE ? That’s 1 set, want to speed clear a dungeon ? that’s another set, running in a zerg in WvW ? that’s another set, want to run in an organized guild ? yup another set, slow night and planning to run solo ? another set, slow night but couple friends on so running small man ? again it’s another set.
To be the most optimal in each setting it requires different stats.
Aren’t you swapping armor in PvE for runes not stats? And depending on class aren’t you doing the same for wvw zergs and if you’re not wouldn’t you still have to change runes? Also if you are doing fractals aren’t you changing armor for infusions? If you got legendary armor you would still have to swap runes and/or Infusions. So wouldn’t you better off with exotic/ascended armor over legendary? I know its a cool thing to be able to change stats on the fly but really unless you like testing new builds constantly legendary armor will mostly be about glowings skins.
I would personally like to see legendary armor obtainable in the three “game types” (for example): spvp (higher level tier), pve (raids) and wvw (achievements). The best would be to make the pieces and the final armor also tradeable in trading post. This would make it possible to get by many types of gameplay. And please don’t hate me for the fact that trading is and should always stay as a part of every mmo.
Legendary armor / weapons should NEVER be tradable !
It is one of the BIGGEST mistakes a.net ever made in gw2.
Hence, new legendaries will NOT be tradable, not even the precursors.
As you appear to know everything definitively, please explain to me what kind of reward structure motivates people to play in an MMO, using the undisputed most popular MMO of all time World of Warcraft as your supporting case. Thanks.
As I’ve said before, WoW is a black swan and cannot be reasonably used as a comparison against any other gaming product. Any feature that works great in Wow has been tried and failed spectacularly in at least 2-3 MMOs by this point. Every MMO that tried to chase after WoW’s shadow just ended up crushed underfoot, and it’s only the ones that have broken out and done something different that have maintained any traction.
Instead I’ll just make a non-comparative answer to your question, a reward structure that motivates people to play is one that makes them feel that their time has been justified and that they are working at a steady pace towards a goal that they want. One way to screw that up is to have difficult content that does not give out as much reward as effortless content, ie Fractals vs. SW farming. That is certainly bad. The way to screw it up in the other direction is to lock unique rewards behind content that only a small number of players actually want to do, forcing everyone else to either run content that they do not enjoy, or abandon that reward entirely, a choice which benefits no one.
It’s probably a good idea to make raid box salable.
People been selling dungeon and raids runs anyway. Being able to sell raid/fractal box can cut down on people selling dungeon runs.
As you appear to know everything definitively, please explain to me what kind of reward structure motivates people to play in an MMO
A leading question which assumes that it’s the reward structure that motivates people to play MMOs. That assumption is wrong – while it is true that a reward structure can make people give up on a game, if it is bad enough, it is rarely the reason why someone plays. Unless you are a gold seller, of course, but then you don’t really play the game. You just work in it.
And as for what might motivate people, it’s the things they believe they have a chance of obtaining. Legendaries for example are that kind of content – while they are unlikely to be earned by most players, everyone can work on them and see that work progressing (even if it’s a slow progress). Rewards that are just not possible to get (as any raid exclusive is for players that don’t raid) do not fulfill that function. Quite the opposite, they serve as a discouragement.
It is healthy in an online game to have things that only the top players can acquire. I believe this actually motivates ALL players, including those who aren’t “top” players, to play the game more, because there is something symbolic of your status that you can strive towards, even if you never get there.
Oh yes, it’s symbolic all right. It symbolizes the division between “elite pros” and the unworthy masses. It symbolizes the toxicity this division causes. And it is a symbol that actively striving to create that toxicity is not only fine, but actually something to strive for.
I wouldn’t call that healthy, however.Well, not really. There are plenty of raiding guilds in other games who aren’t “elite” or toxic at all – they have just organised themselves and beat some content, and thus they are rewarded for it. It’s nice to be rewarded for doing difficult content that required a lot of effort and organisation. It doesn’t automatically mean all raiders have a toxic attitude and look down on those who don’t have the best rewards.
Do you not even see, that demanding better/exclusive rewards is in itself a manifestation of the outlook that defines raiders as betters and non-raiders as a lower kind of players? Which sees raids as a more important content compared to the rest of the game?
Yes, there may be raiders that do not look down on other players. They would likely be playing for fun however, and not insist on exclusivity. Because exclusivity is all about creating that raider-nonraider division.
And that, as i have already said, is not healthy at all.
Rewards should remain thematic. Otherwise the game becomes monotonous.
As such, there’s alot of reason for exclusive rewards to exist.
However, since we don’t know how the legendary armor is acquired it’s pointless to demand if a legendary armor hunt is nescessary. For all we know there’s already exactly that in the works, and you merely need to do raids to unlock the legendary armor collection. In a fashion that dungeons were required for legendary weapons.
Rewards should remain thematic. Otherwise the game becomes monotonous.
As such, there’s alot of reason for exclusive rewards to exist.
Thematic rewards are good, but that doesn’t mean that they should be exclusive to a single content type. For one thing, you can make a specific type of content the primary source of the items, and other sources are less efficient for it.
For another, you can make content that is thematic to a given region, without tying it to specific content, so if the legendary armor is thematic to the raid (and I kind of suspect that it isn’t even that), then ok, the raid can be one source, but also the region around the raid can provide alternative opportunities, while playing off the same theme. I mean, CoF armor is thematic to the CoF raid, but it’s no less thematic to the Fireheart Rise region, so on thematic grounds there’s no reason why it can’t be earned through completing open world CoF content, like some of the bigger event chains.
And then of course there are the alternate methods that play off the theme, like the thematic PvP tracks, which could be expanded into PvE and WvW tracks.
So there’s basically no reason that “rewards should be thematic” should preclude “rewards should be available through multiple gameplay styles.”
I would personally like to see legendary armor obtainable in the three “game types” (for example): spvp (higher level tier), pve (raids) and wvw (achievements). The best would be to make the pieces and the final armor also tradeable in trading post. This would make it possible to get by many types of gameplay. And please don’t hate me for the fact that trading is and should always stay as a part of every mmo.
Legendary armor / weapons should NEVER be tradable !
It is one of the BIGGEST mistakes a.net ever made in gw2.
Hence, new legendaries will NOT be tradable, not even the precursors.
This is actually very bad direction to head towards. Every piece of gear in a mmo should always stay tradeable. What you should not be able to trade are titles, achievements or used gear. I can’t really see your point why nontradeable legendaries are somewhat better?
Those were only examples I gave there and tried to keep them in same category in dedication. As many people here actually want the legendary armor to be more of an achievement than a milestone. I would see open world content here as par with spvp reward track or wvw badges/rank (edge of the mists).
Yeah, but the thing is, the people happy with Legendary armor locked behind Raids are likely the same sort of people who are hardcore into PvP or WvW. Rewaring them is a bit like saying "We have heard that you guys are upset about hedgefund managers making the most money, so we’ve decided to also give money to yacht aficionados and a people who own at least three homes. I hope that satisfies you peasants. "
It is healthy in an online game to have things that only the top players can acquire. I believe this actually motivates ALL players, including those who aren’t “top” players, to play the game more, because there is something symbolic of your status that you can strive towards, even if you never get there.
Nope. Common misconception, but total trickledown nonsense.
I’m talking about dedication and effort here. The real life comparison is a bit fallacious as we can’t really tell if the owner of three houses ever put any effort in having them, he could be one of those who guessed few numbers correctly. If legendary armor was obtainable from a less effort needing content like open world event chains or spvp reward tracks it should take considerable amount of more time in comparison to one getting it from a raid or higher tier spvp.
This is actually very bad direction to head towards. Every piece of gear in a mmo should always stay tradeable. What you should not be able to trade are titles, achievements or used gear. I can’t really see your point why nontradeable legendaries are somewhat better?
My stance on this is that I would prefer Legendaries to be non-tradable IF they offer a wide varieties of ways to earn them to account for multiple play styles. If they force you to raid to get them then I support being able to trade them as a slightly less evil option.
Ultimately though, I don’t think high value items should be tradable because you should have to earn them through some form of direct tasks yourself, they should not be about how much gold you have. In a different economy that might be ok, but this game’s economy is completely dysfunctional due to gem selling and TP-barons, and can’t be trusted to deal in anything important. The market should only be used to trade consumables, materials, and other generic goods.
This is actually very bad direction to head towards. Every piece of gear in a mmo should always stay tradeable. What you should not be able to trade are titles, achievements or used gear. I can’t really see your point why nontradeable legendaries are somewhat better?
My stance on this is that I would prefer Legendaries to be non-tradable IF they offer a wide varieties of ways to earn them to account for multiple play styles. If they force you to raid to get them then I support being able to trade them as a slightly less evil option.
Ultimately though, I don’t think high value items should be tradable because you should have to earn them through some form of direct tasks yourself, they should not be about how much gold you have. In a different economy that might be ok, but this game’s economy is completely dysfunctional due to gem selling and TP-barons, and can’t be trusted to deal in anything important. The market should only be used to trade consumables, materials, and other generic goods.
I have to disagree on this. I don’t really see gear as a trophy and thus should be tradeable. Trading is pretty much a play style as well and should be one of the ways to obtain the said gear. It would also benefit those who already have the gear as they could sell the parts they don’t need anymore.
Like Legendary Weapons, any other Legendary item should be tradeable on the TP. Otherwise, what’s the point of doing content over again? One and done should not be a design in raids. We should get rewarded for repeating content too. This is also how we all get to play any content in game and still have access to items. Multiple avenues of acquisition wouldn’t be required if everything flowed through the TP.
Like Legendary Weapons, any other Legendary item should be tradeable on the TP. Otherwise, what’s the point of doing content over again? One and done should not be a design in raids. We should get rewarded for repeating content too. This is also how we all get to play any content in game and still have access to items. Multiple avenues of acquisition wouldn’t be required if everything flowed through the TP.
Completely agree with this. If the content is repeatable the reward should be tradeable.
I have to disagree on this. I don’t really see gear as a trophy and thus should be tradeable. Trading is pretty much a play style as well and should be one of the ways to obtain the said gear. It would also benefit those who already have the gear as they could sell the parts they don’t need anymore.
There should always be ways to convert unwanted bits into something useful, but no it should not be trading (ideally), and trading is not a play style. and I do agree that gear is not a trophy, but that doesn’t mean that it should come without any effort. That is the whole point of the reward cycle, that you need to put forth effort to earn things. So long as that effort is enjoyable, then it’s a good gaming experience. If there is no effort in the game that you do find enjoyable, then maybe it’s not the right fit for you.
Like Legendary Weapons, any other Legendary item should be tradeable on the TP. Otherwise, what’s the point of doing content over again? One and done should not be a design in raids. We should get rewarded for repeating content too. This is also how we all get to play any content in game and still have access to items. Multiple avenues of acquisition wouldn’t be required if everything flowed through the TP.
No. There need to be multiple methods so that there can be multiple ways to EARN the armors, not so that raiders can make huge profits selling off unwanted armor to everyone else. Legendaries should not be a revenue stream. There should be ongoing reasons to complete the content, but it should be in the form of standard loot that is comparable to other activities.
I have to disagree on this. I don’t really see gear as a trophy and thus should be tradeable. Trading is pretty much a play style as well and should be one of the ways to obtain the said gear. It would also benefit those who already have the gear as they could sell the parts they don’t need anymore.
There should always be ways to convert unwanted bits into something useful, but no it should not be trading (ideally), and trading is not a play style. and I do agree that gear is not a trophy, but that doesn’t mean that it should come without any effort. That is the whole point of the reward cycle, that you need to put forth effort to earn things. So long as that effort is enjoyable, then it’s a good gaming experience. If there is no effort in the game that you do find enjoyable, then maybe it’s not the right fit for you.
Like Legendary Weapons, any other Legendary item should be tradeable on the TP. Otherwise, what’s the point of doing content over again? One and done should not be a design in raids. We should get rewarded for repeating content too. This is also how we all get to play any content in game and still have access to items. Multiple avenues of acquisition wouldn’t be required if everything flowed through the TP.
No. There need to be multiple methods so that there can be multiple ways to EARN the armors, not so that raiders can make huge profits selling off unwanted armor to everyone else. Legendaries should not be a revenue stream. There should be ongoing reasons to complete the content, but it should be in the form of standard loot that is comparable to other activities.
To me when I’m reading your comments on different areas it’s starting to sound like you want gear and rewards to be locked behind things YOU enjoy in the game. Trading not play style? nonsense. It has been in every mmo out there as long as I can remember. Some mmos even offer character progression towards trading. Who is talking about effortless rewards? How is getting gold and items (that you don’t want) from different sources of the game and buying the gear (that you want) not considered as “putting in effort”?
So there’s basically no reason that “rewards should be thematic” should preclude “rewards should be available through multiple gameplay styles.”
Okay fine, it’s a design choice, there’s no should and should not in this case. A choice that ArenaNet has made long ago, however. Mostly because it’s much more economic to see rewards as part of specific content, rather than putting in lots of manpower towards creating multiple routes for a single type of skin.
I do not want them try and jump hurdles of the desire of skins, which is highly subjective to begin with, and create multiple routes because people might throw a tantrum if they like the skin too much and instead focus on creating unique experiences with fitting rewards, which may or may not be unique.
Personally I think this whole discussion is about mere preference anyway. A game to me is not to serve the player, but to challenge the player. Game design then should be making it so that it’s enjoyable to play.
To me when I’m reading your comments on different areas it’s starting to sound like you want gear and rewards to be locked behind things YOU enjoy in the game. Trading not play style?
No, it should just be locked through actual gameplay activities, including many that I do not personally enjoy. Trading, at least the way it’s implemented in GW2, is a grossly distorted mechanism, like Silverwastes farming. It interacts poorly with any other element. if you want it to be treated as equivalent to actual gameplay, then it would need to be balanced as if it were gameplay, in that highly effective methods of earning money would need to be nerfed. Is that something you would like to see happen? In any case, it’s a bit too late to even try that now, a bit like Karma. The existing gold markets have become so distorted that there is no way to fix them and so they should be ignored whenever possible by future content.
How is getting gold and items (that you don’t want) from different sources of the game and buying the gear (that you want) not considered as “putting in effort”?
Because many of the methods of making gold are significantly out of balance, and impossible to balance at this point in the game’s lifespan. The method of “earning tokens (that you don’t want) from different sources of the game and buying the gear (that you want)” is a valid one, but in the current and future states of the game, gold cannot be that token currency in any meaningful way.
Some games do “trading as a play style” well, GW2 has never been one of those games, the deliberately made choices that made the GW2 economy too broken for that to work.
Okay fine, it’s a design choice, there’s no should and should not in this case. A choice that ArenaNet has made long ago, however. Mostly because it’s much more economic to see rewards as part of specific content, rather than putting in lots of manpower towards creating multiple routes for a single type of skin.
They already have plenty of parts of the game where you can earn the same rewards through multiple methods though, and continue to add them. What I suggest is nothing revolutionary, it’s just expanding and interlinking systems that they already have in place, for example expanding the PvP reward tracks to PvE and WvW, or allowing existing dungeon tokens to be exchanged for other currencies (and token exchange NPCs have been in since near launch).
They don’t actually need to create new content to support this, they just need to tweak some of the reward mechanisms, as some new UI, that sort of thing. Not trivial, but different teams.
I do not want them try and jump hurdles of the desire of skins, which is highly subjective to begin with, and create multiple routes because people might throw a tantrum if they like the skin too much and instead focus on creating unique experiences with fitting rewards, which may or may not be unique.
That’s really no difference in what you’re saying. They’re going to be annoying people either way, might as well go the route where the largest amount of people get the thing that they want. You’re trying to frame your argument as if you’re making an objective case as to what is Better, but really it’s just how you prefer it to be, and that’s fine, but keep it in perspective.
A game to me is not to serve the player, but to challenge the player.
I disagree. Some people come for challenge, some come for fun, which might enjoy challenge, but not always. Challenge is as subjective as anything else, some like a little, some like a crushing amount, and you can’t please everyone with the same content, so the best solution is to provide multiple different levels of challenge, and let people choose which they prefer without punishing them for choosing a lower challenge level than someone else, or reward them for enjoying a higher challenge level than someone else. So long as everyone is equally rewarded for pursuing the challenge level they enjoy, everyone wins.
To me when I’m reading your comments on different areas it’s starting to sound like you want gear and rewards to be locked behind things YOU enjoy in the game. Trading not play style?
No, it should just be locked through actual gameplay activities, including many that I do not personally enjoy. Trading, at least the way it’s implemented in GW2, is a grossly distorted mechanism, like Silverwastes farming. It interacts poorly with any other element. if you want it to be treated as equivalent to actual gameplay, then it would need to be balanced as if it were gameplay, in that highly effective methods of earning money would need to be nerfed. Is that something you would like to see happen? In any case, it’s a bit too late to even try that now, a bit like Karma. The existing gold markets have become so distorted that there is no way to fix them and so they should be ignored whenever possible by future content.
So you are suggesting that rewards should be balanced on how much time is consumed doing any content (that you say is viable as gameplay activity?) but not on players ability or dedication? The thing is SW chestfarm train isn’t any different from event karma train in terms of ones effort. So would it really be any different if the event train person got the legendary armor as reward from doing the events and the chestfarm person got it by buying it with gold in about same amount of time.
So you are suggesting that rewards should be balanced on how much time is consumed doing any content (that you say is viable as gameplay activity?) but not on players ability or dedication?
It should be based on a certain combination of these things. If a game type is completely effortless then it shouldn’t necessarily be massively rewarding, but so long as the activity involves a certain amount of player attention and interaction, then yes, it should be as rewarding as any other. Having higher skills as a player should not entitle you to superior rewards, that’s just something you do, and that’s great, but that shouldn’t mean that someone who can’t do those things shouldn’t be able to get the stuff they want. It might take them longer, but they should have a path.
The thing is SW chestfarm train isn’t any different from event karma train in terms of ones effort.
Ehh, chest farming takes less effort, but I agree that both are fairly minimal engagement activities.
So would it really be any different if the event train person got the legendary armor as reward from doing the events and the chestfarm person got it by buying it with gold in about same amount of time.
Yes, but really neither should be eligible, or at least if they are eligible it would be a vry long road. Events that are part of the legendary train should be only the kind that involve relatively high player engagement, nothing overly challenging, but a bit more than “tag the mob and go afk until its over.” You did understand that my point was that karma was also a devalued currency, right? Both gold and karma are hopeless at this point. Any currency that would be used going forward needs to be a new one where everyone starts at zero.
So you are suggesting that rewards should be balanced on how much time is consumed doing any content (that you say is viable as gameplay activity?) but not on players ability or dedication?
It should be based on a certain combination of these things. If a game type is completely effortless then it shouldn’t necessarily be massively rewarding, but so long as the activity involves a certain amount of player attention and interaction, then yes, it should be as rewarding as any other. Having higher skills as a player should not entitle you to superior rewards, that’s just something you do, and that’s great, but that shouldn’t mean that someone who can’t do those things shouldn’t be able to get the stuff they want. It might take them longer, but they should have a path.
The thing is SW chestfarm train isn’t any different from event karma train in terms of ones effort.
Ehh, chest farming takes less effort, but I agree that both are fairly minimal engagement activities.
So would it really be any different if the event train person got the legendary armor as reward from doing the events and the chestfarm person got it by buying it with gold in about same amount of time.
Yes, but really neither should be eligible, or at least if they are eligible it would be a vry long road. Events that are part of the legendary train should be only the kind that involve relatively high player engagement, nothing overly challenging, but a bit more than “tag the mob and go afk until its over.” You did understand that my point was that karma was also a devalued currency, right? Both gold and karma are hopeless at this point. Any currency that would be used going forward needs to be a new one where everyone starts at zero.
This I can agree with. I just would like to see that some content that requires considerable amount of dedication to it would have relatively higher chance at gaining the legendary gear than the other which required alot less dedication. I think its very bad for the player if whatever he does has about the same rewards per time consumed even if the other content was alot harder or took ones dedication to next level. It only encourages people to do these karma or chest trains. I would never lock rewards behind hard content though, exclusive “account-bound” rewards (especially gear) only make the community more toxic and stoke bragging.
(edited by Gynok.1756)
To me when I’m reading your comments on different areas it’s starting to sound like you want gear and rewards to be locked behind things YOU enjoy in the game. Trading not play style?
No, it should just be locked through actual gameplay activities, including many that I do not personally enjoy. Trading, at least the way it’s implemented in GW2, is a grossly distorted mechanism, like Silverwastes farming. It interacts poorly with any other element. if you want it to be treated as equivalent to actual gameplay, then it would need to be balanced as if it were gameplay, in that highly effective methods of earning money would need to be nerfed. Is that something you would like to see happen? In any case, it’s a bit too late to even try that now, a bit like Karma. The existing gold markets have become so distorted that there is no way to fix them and so they should be ignored whenever possible by future content.
How is getting gold and items (that you don’t want) from different sources of the game and buying the gear (that you want) not considered as “putting in effort”?
Because many of the methods of making gold are significantly out of balance, and impossible to balance at this point in the game’s lifespan. The method of “earning tokens (that you don’t want) from different sources of the game and buying the gear (that you want)” is a valid one, but in the current and future states of the game, gold cannot be that token currency in any meaningful way.
Some games do “trading as a play style” well, GW2 has never been one of those games, the deliberately made choices that made the GW2 economy too broken for that to work.
Okay fine, it’s a design choice, there’s no should and should not in this case. A choice that ArenaNet has made long ago, however. Mostly because it’s much more economic to see rewards as part of specific content, rather than putting in lots of manpower towards creating multiple routes for a single type of skin.
They already have plenty of parts of the game where you can earn the same rewards through multiple methods though, and continue to add them. What I suggest is nothing revolutionary, it’s just expanding and interlinking systems that they already have in place, for example expanding the PvP reward tracks to PvE and WvW, or allowing existing dungeon tokens to be exchanged for other currencies (and token exchange NPCs have been in since near launch).
They don’t actually need to create new content to support this, they just need to tweak some of the reward mechanisms, as some new UI, that sort of thing. Not trivial, but different teams.
I do not want them try and jump hurdles of the desire of skins, which is highly subjective to begin with, and create multiple routes because people might throw a tantrum if they like the skin too much and instead focus on creating unique experiences with fitting rewards, which may or may not be unique.
That’s really no difference in what you’re saying. They’re going to be annoying people either way, might as well go the route where the largest amount of people get the thing that they want. You’re trying to frame your argument as if you’re making an objective case as to what is Better, but really it’s just how you prefer it to be, and that’s fine, but keep it in perspective.
A game to me is not to serve the player, but to challenge the player.
I disagree. Some people come for challenge, some come for fun, which might enjoy challenge, but not always. Challenge is as subjective as anything else, some like a little, some like a crushing amount, and you can’t please everyone with the same content, so the best solution is to provide multiple different levels of challenge, and let people choose which they prefer without punishing them for choosing a lower challenge level than someone else, or reward them for enjoying a higher challenge level than someone else. So long as everyone is equally rewarded for pursuing the challenge level they enjoy, everyone wins.
I’m not saying it’s revolutionary, just that it costs too much resources. And that it’s not even that important to try and give everything what they like because it’s really hard to do so. Instead it would be more productive in my opinion, for the developers to focus on the design and quality than something as trivial as a reward system. Or even make rewards less thematic because for some reason rewards are so important they warrant to put resources into something like that.
Plus I’m not trying to say that I’m objectively right, that’s your gig. I specifically used “I want” to show it’s what i think. And furthermore stated that its mere preference. How can I frame something as objective while directly stating that its design choice and preference? That doesn’t even remotely make any sense at all. Do you even logic? Or read? You’re the one who isn’t keeping things in perpective and hyper focussing on this reward “problem” while disregarding everything else. You’re being very disingenuous.
They should have new raid skins as rewards and not lock lengendary armour/precursors behind it. Why? Because raid communities will typically only be done by the smallest section of the community. Apparently there won’t even be a LGF for it, so it will be for premades only (which makes sense since it will not be puggable).This group, after the first few weeks will be smaller than the current fractal population. This move by Anet is illogical, they should concentrate on improving content and Rewards for the masses rather than the minority of minorities. Raids usually require a long time to learn, coordinate and complete. That is why it will always be the smallest part of the gw2 population. Gating lengendaries behind it is not going to change that.
So did anyone consider Legendary Armor won’t be locked behind raids? Just because that’s the only thing they have announced it for doesn’t mean that’s the only way to get it. Look at the new Legendary back pieces for example. They announced one for Fractals (and assorted PvE) but you never would have known there were others until they also announced one for PvP.
Hasn’t been announced does not equal doesn’t exist….
I’m glad the devs are in charge of this game and not the people posting in this thread…
Legendary items should never have been tradeable. It was a mistake and everyone know its, even the devs. Thankfully the new legendary items will be account bound which solves a whole host of problems.
The best way to get a top-tier item should never be, and never should have been “follow a mob of people around digging in the dirt while watching a movie”
That is not a sustainable game model, which should be obvious by the significant drop in players and going F2P.
HoT is attempting to fix this problem, and so far seems to be doing a pretty good job.
Alright, I understand that people will want the shiny, fancy, new Legendary Armor to be available just the same as the current weapon Legendaries are. I get that, they are more “easily accessible” in a sense, even if it’s just through money. Which mind you they are changing that when HoT comes out anyway, so even though the acquisition of Legendary weapons won’t necessarily be money gated as much as it is now, they will still be gated behind certain content. Exploration, farming, time, and with HoT they will be behind a Collection Achievement specifically for a Precursor. Achievement grinding is a facet of gameplay in MMORPGs these days just as PvE and PvP are, it’s just a subsection.
So if you’re complaining that you’ll have to learn how to do raids or actually put forth some actual, legitimate, conscious effort towards getting the Legendary Armor then I think you should maybe actually take part in the content rather than complain about it. If you don’t like the content then okay, maybe wait until Anet makes some sort of exclusive Legendary skin for the content you like. They obviously take the time to do as such, it’s just not currently in this expansion. Also we don’t yet know how much time raids will take to complete, we don’t yet know how challenging they might actually be, but we will see.
Side Note: Also I saw somewhere in here someone saying PvE content isn’t even challenging because it’s not against real people, I challenge you to go and actually play Dark Souls/Demon Souls/Bloodborne. That’s PvE buddy, even if solo.
GW1 had the same stuff, it had gated armor skins behind getting through Underworld and other such areas and yes, Legendary Armor is just skins. Nothing more, nothing less. Yeah you can freely swap stats, yes there are implications behind how useful that is but…who cares? You can craft armor of those stats, buy armor of those stats with karma or ingame gold if you’re not lazy and actually actively play the game rather than sit on your butts in DR/LA just using the game as a social media outlet or just complaining about the game in general rather than doing something in the game. Which, heh, Raids, HoT areas, Adventures, Map Bonus Rewards and Guild Halls are providing more content to do on top of more Living World and Achievements. There is a lot to do in GW2, it’s not anyone’s fault but your own that you either don’t have money ingame or “aren’t able to complete content”. If you’re busy with work and such then okay that’s understandable but you also have to understand that if you’re not able to play as much due to real life then that’s just a fact you’re going to have to accept and not expect a video game company to work things around your life schedule just cuz you not being able to invest all the time you need to into, for example, raids is ‘inconvenient’ for you. Complacency and hand-holding is a legitimate problem in MMORPGs today and I would rather not have a video game company bend over backward just to appease a crowd that wants their hand held after the same company announces content that has rewards specific only to that content.
You want something then you work for it. Some of the best moments in video gaming of mine have been when I’ve achieved something through actual effort and not just having someone hand me a trophy for “participation”.
Maybe if you actually try raids because you want the Legendary Armor enough you might like GW2’s take on them. You never know. This game isn’t WoW and WoW didn’t coin “raids” anyway, they just made them worse than they should be.
Wow this thread reads just like I thought it would when it comes to raiding.
Demand/ask/beg for hard group instances since it’s “my favorite thing to do”
Then comes “my favorite thing is the hardest thing I game and we should have the bestest gears from it”
Las comes the never ending circles of “can we get alternative ways to get said gear” vs “my favorite thing is the hardest thing and should be the only way to get it” vs “if it’s your favorite thing why do you also need to get the best rewards? Shouldn’t playing your favorite thing be enough”
I happen to be one of the people that thinks in this game it would be optimal to have multiple was to acquire legendary armor. If not then you are pigeon holing everyone into raiding to acquire the best armor in the game. And yes having the ability to change stats at will makes this the best armor.
And yes having the ability to change stats at will makes this the best armor.
It really won’t since it won’t change runes.
The best way to change stats is multi sets of cheap exotic gear.
As has been pointed out multiple times in this thread.
Also it will be just as good as ascended armor, even if it can change stats those stats are the same as ascended, not better. It may be more convenient armor, but it will not be better.
So did anyone consider Legendary Armor won’t be locked behind raids?
Nope. It’s such a volatile subject that Anet would have clarified it right away if it were so. Unless of course they are completely clueless, of course.
So did anyone consider Legendary Armor won’t be locked behind raids?
Nope. It’s such a volatile subject that Anet would have clarified it right away if it were so. Unless of course they are completely clueless, of course.
That has unfortunately been the case many times before… remember when preordering launched?
As you appear to know everything definitively, please explain to me what kind of reward structure motivates people to play in an MMO, using the undisputed most popular MMO of all time World of Warcraft as your supporting case. Thanks.
As I’ve said before, WoW is a black swan and cannot be reasonably used as a comparison against any other gaming product. Any feature that works great in Wow has been tried and failed spectacularly in at least 2-3 MMOs by this point. Every MMO that tried to chase after WoW’s shadow just ended up crushed underfoot, and it’s only the ones that have broken out and done something different that have maintained any traction.
Instead I’ll just make a non-comparative answer to your question, a reward structure that motivates people to play is one that makes them feel that their time has been justified and that they are working at a steady pace towards a goal that they want. One way to screw that up is to have difficult content that does not give out as much reward as effortless content, ie Fractals vs. SW farming. That is certainly bad. The way to screw it up in the other direction is to lock unique rewards behind content that only a small number of players actually want to do, forcing everyone else to either run content that they do not enjoy, or abandon that reward entirely, a choice which benefits no one.
nope working at a steady pace towards your goals is not actually the highest motivating rewards system
also, exclusive rewards actually doesnt mess up your paradigm of working at a steady pace towards your goals being the best answer.
As long as you have goals that players wish to work towards for most playstyles, they will still excel under your paradigm.
This is probably why they built the mastery system/elite spec hero points.
It is the most compelling goal for an open world player. More compelling than cosmetics by far. Even more compelling than maximum stats. Play open world to get more access to the open world, and more convenience and strength in the open world.
based on what you said, i dont think many, if any of the player types you are talking about will be quitting for exclusives. They will be busy pursuing their goals of unlocking specializations and masteries on multiple charachters at a steady pace, for the most dominant and powerful charachter growth/progression the game offers at 80+
And yes having the ability to change stats at will makes this the best armor.
It really won’t since it won’t change runes.
The best way to change stats is multi sets of cheap exotic gear.
As has been pointed out multiple times in this thread.
Also it will be just as good as ascended armor, even if it can change stats those stats are the same as ascended, not better. It may be more convenient armor, but it will not be better.
The legendary armor set will be like having multiple set of ascended. BONUS if a new stat combo comes out your covered. Also you can get a rune set that covers multiply builds (travel,strength,soldier,etc)
You can argue it but I think the majority of people, even thous arguing will still view this as the best armor set.
nope working at a steady pace towards your goals is not actually the highest motivating rewards system
It’s way better than rewards you know you won’t get because they are intentionally kept out of your reach.
also, exclusive rewards actually doesnt mess up your paradigm of working at a steady pace towards your goals being the best answer.
Well, if i can’t work at a steady pace towards those rewards, they definitely do.
nope working at a steady pace towards your goals is not actually the highest motivating rewards system
It’s way better than rewards you know you won’t get because they are intentionally kept out of your reach.
Both subjective.
also, exclusive rewards actually doesnt mess up your paradigm of working at a steady pace towards your goals being the best answer.
Well, if i can’t work at a steady pace towards those rewards, they definitely do.
Technically, when you have decided it is out of reach, it stopped belonging to your goals. If you’re set on keeping unrealistic goals, then you have bigger problems.
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