Guild Wars 2

Palador.2170:

Now, so long as you’re in the main world (not HoT zones), your EXP will go towards this Mastery. Maybe it takes one full bar to get to rank 1, two bars to rank 2, and so on… but ANY EXP you gain is going towards this. If you go to an HoT zone, you’ll change over to working on HoT Masteries.

No grinding of any content is needed. Specific content to unlock, yes, but then any content can be used to earn Mastery ranks.

No, any content can’t. Only content in that specific region. Exactly like you say in the first paragraph – only HoT masteries progress in HoT and vice versa. ‘Do set content repeatedly to gain an ability or get locked out of new content’ is what the mastery system description says.

So far, we’ve heard the expansion described as ‘extremely challenging’, ‘80s only’ and ‘group content’. Speaking as a casual player, it sounds like the new content isn’t going to be for me at all – more challenging and group focused than Orr isn’t going to be fun. But if I want hang gliding or any other HoT mastery, I have to play that. If I want to play with friends but don’t have the masteries, I can’t play that content with them.

It’s exactly the same as a raid for gear. I have to run a specific group of content repeatedly to get X, and X is vital to enjoying new content. Not having X will prevent me from participating. The content to be run might be more varied than a dungeon, but it’s the same underlying philosophy of needing to run content repeatedly just to be able to keep up with game content that turns people off about raid gear grinds.

Beast Sos.1457:

My assumption is all based on not being able to do specific content without the corresponding Mastery.

Masteries are the new gear progression. Without them you cant kill certain mobs or you cant explore certain areas. This is pretty much forcing you to go grind areas you dont want to play in or content you dont want to do so you can play what you want. That is something that goes against Anets philosophy.

Now I can be 100% incorrect and you wont have to get Masteries to do certain content, all they will do is make the content easier. Certain Masteries should be gated like the hand glider and learning new languages, since you have to learn some way. But you telling me I cant do this boss fight or fight this certain mob because I dont have the corresponding Mastery, is just another gear grind with a fancy name on it.

I love gw2 and ill be buying the expansion no matter what but I’m concerned that the Mastery system isnt anything special and just adds grind to the game, which isnt necessary.

it does seem that anet wants to add (once again) very little “substance” to the game and stretch out that “substance” as far as they can so people log in. also, they will probably handle specializations in a similar way so they can make it seem special and exciting.

Iason Evan.3806:

Palador.2170:

Iason Evan.3806:

I don’t mind hard fights. In fact, I love hard content like Liadri. I can’t stand stuff that tells me no matter how good you are at this game you can not fight this creature that you are at because we put an arbitrary mechanic in place. I am not talking about leveling. I am talking about making me gain something by grinding in order to be able to fight it. Call it gear grind, call it mastery points.

Can we call it a “Queen’s Gauntlet Entrance Ticket”? As I recall, you needed those to get into the fight.

They were fairly easy to get, as I recall, but you still had to have them to do the fights. And if you ran out, you had to go get more.

As far as that goes, Liadri was fight 4 of Tier 3, right? She was effectively gated by everything before her. It didn’t matter how good you were, you had to earn the chance to fight her.

The problem isn’t stuff being gated. It’s stuff being gated badly. Wouldn’t you agree?

If it’s as easy as getting gauntlet tickets, sure. You 100% have a point. We both know it’s not though. They even cited in the blog today that it isn’t gear grind. They are right. Instead they put lipstick on a pig named “gear grind” and called it “masteries”.

^^^ Agreed 100%!!! And they said that once you’ve started masteries your nameplate will show your mastery score, sounds like WoW gear score to me.

BilboBaggins.5620:

And they said that once you’ve started masteries your nameplate will show your mastery score, sounds like WoW gear score to me.

That bit definitely caught my eye. I really don’t see how displaying a player’s mastery score is going to bring anything but trouble.

They need to be really careful with this IMO. Gating content behind masteries sounds a lot like faction/gear grind. If I try to do content to only be told I need to get my mastery to x level it will make the game no different than the gearscore checks in other mmos.

darkace.8925:

BilboBaggins.5620:

And they said that once you’ve started masteries your nameplate will show your mastery score, sounds like WoW gear score to me.

That bit definitely caught my eye. I really don’t see how displaying a player’s mastery score is going to bring anything but trouble.

You mean like displaying the AP causes trouble now?

darkace.8925:

BilboBaggins.5620:

And they said that once you’ve started masteries your nameplate will show your mastery score, sounds like WoW gear score to me.

That bit definitely caught my eye. I really don’t see how displaying a player’s mastery score is going to bring anything but trouble.

“Arah P2 250MP and 15k AP ONLY or don’t join”.

Nah, that will never happen. Gw2 has the best MMO community in the world.

I really don’t see how it will cause anything, considering only part of the masteries will be combat based. It’s more likely people will just ask for specific masteries (if they apply). I actually kind of doubt they will apply to dungeons at all, as they are pretty much abandoned. They would only apply to fractals.

Edit: Also the only people that ask for minimum AP are ones that want to be carried by others.

Beast Sos.1457:

Lunarhound.7324:

The fact that it’s “gated content” doesn’t bother me. Absolutely anything you don’t begin the game with is technically “gated”. Skills are gated. Story missions are gated. The very concept of progression – even so-called “horizontal progression” – requires that one begin with less, and progress toward more. Zelda, one of the series referenced in the inspiration for masteries, “gates” content behind completion of certain story segments, or acquisition of certain tools. You may want to play in Death Mountain, but it’s not happening until you’ve “unlocked” it by progressing through the required content. Even more non-linear games like Skyrim “gate” content. You can’t perform shouts until complete certain requirements. You can’t experience game play with a short sword until you find one.

This is not, in itself, negative. Complaining that something is “gated” or that you are “locked out” of using it does not actually illustrate a problem with the system, it just makes a very vague statement about how the system (and nearly any other progression system) works.

So, how should masteries work? How do you have a “progression system” (which we all knew this was) in which progress is satisfying and rewarding, but holds back absolutely nothing from those who haven’t yet reached a given point? How do you implement a way to progress that doesn’t require you to progress?

I just made a post on how combat Masteries should work, imo. Things like the glider and learning new language should be gating but combat is something that should be skill based and not gear/mastery based.

sa mentioned, some things in zelda require a boomerang and what not, just like some combat will require x thing here. Difference is here you can play with friends. If as described players can rip off bark, do you not think that after players capable of doing so, do so, that those who cant wont benefit? GW2 wants people to come together, if my friend focuses noncombat masteiries while I train up language with a certain race why punish us for the choice, rather reward us for coming together and helping out in areas we dont yet have? We don’t know the details, but really come on, even if you cant do much damage cause you dont have perk x isn’t some crazy stupid grind. The game needs to give you things to adventure for and the concept of coming up to an enemy you can’t beat, learning where to go to get what you need, questing for that boomerang and coming back to kill it, is cool. If you think its a grind, it is, but its not some stupid meaningless grind like gear or a few new levels would be. All games have a grind of some sort, its a matter of how fun it is to experience and since we havent experienced it yet and have only some info to go on, you are taking a big jump to suggest that you will be so totally barred until you spend a weeks worth of irl time or something.

Iason Evan.3806:

I think the connection is in other MMOs you need certain gear to do a certain thing. With this game you need a certain mastery to do a certain thing. gear grind in other games=mastery grind in this game.

Now, I am in no way insinuating that the actual grind time in GW2 will be anywhere near as long or frustrating as in other games. I am totally not. THis game is a blast, but it’s for sure there. If you want to get to certain things you will have to get mastery points to access them.

At least by the sound of it this gate is not bound by RNG like gear gates usually are. You can also choose in which order to unlock the masteries, which is again a nice way to keep the “play how you want” principle alive.

It reminds me a bit of Eye of the North (as I said elsewhere). You could do any of the three story paths in any order, but you had to do all of them before you could do the Deldrimor story.

I’m not terribly worried from what I’ve seen so far.

I agree with Vayne, I haven’t seen any claims that masteries will dramatically impact the progression in the game the way it’s described in this thread.

" Masteries are all about adding an exciting progression system to the PvE component of Guild Wars 2—WvW has its Abilities system, PvP progression is focused on player skill, and PvE will now have meaningful endgame progression with Masteries."
That makes me think more that it’s akin to WvW progression. Which you also don’t need in order to play WvW.

The whole “I can’t fight creature X because masteries” nonsense in this thread is also pretty laughable. I would call it very selective reading and selective quoting, either on purpose or not in order to create a controversy that isn’t there.

“As you unlock Masteries, you’ll be more effective in fights against certain enemies in the jungle, you’ll be able to reach new areas and fully explore the maps you’re in, and you’ll be able to revisit previous encounters with the advantage of the abilities you’ve mastered over time.”

That doesn’t state that you NEED certain abilities to fight monsters, but only that you get more proficient fighting them. Though I rather have a racial /pvE skill like skill than something like a flat damage increase. So added flavor in skills rather than added extra damage. (which isn’t needed usually)

In the mean time, WTS tin foil hats, 1 gold.

I imagine the masteries are a combination of specific skills (like the jump/teleport/etc items) and the currently fairly worthless anti-mob potions (ie 10% more damage and the like). Aint more complicated than already existing content.

Anet should really say kitten it and gate content with actual gates just to spite people.

Iason Evan.3806:

darkace.8925:

BilboBaggins.5620:

And they said that once you’ve started masteries your nameplate will show your mastery score, sounds like WoW gear score to me.

That bit definitely caught my eye. I really don’t see how displaying a player’s mastery score is going to bring anything but trouble.

“Arah P2 250MP and 15k AP ONLY or don’t join”.

Nah, that will never happen. Gw2 has the best MMO community in the world.

Since HoT masteries won’t play any role in old content that won’t be an issue.

maddoctor.2738:

Iason Evan.3806:

darkace.8925:

BilboBaggins.5620:

And they said that once you’ve started masteries your nameplate will show your mastery score, sounds like WoW gear score to me.

That bit definitely caught my eye. I really don’t see how displaying a player’s mastery score is going to bring anything but trouble.

“Arah P2 250MP and 15k AP ONLY or don’t join”.

Nah, that will never happen. Gw2 has the best MMO community in the world.

Since HoT masteries won’t play any role in old content that won’t be an issue.

They do. It’s already been revealed there will at least be a Fractal Mastery line. There might be more.

Tom Gore.4035:

maddoctor.2738:

Iason Evan.3806:

darkace.8925:

BilboBaggins.5620:

And they said that once you’ve started masteries your nameplate will show your mastery score, sounds like WoW gear score to me.

That bit definitely caught my eye. I really don’t see how displaying a player’s mastery score is going to bring anything but trouble.

“Arah P2 250MP and 15k AP ONLY or don’t join”.

Nah, that will never happen. Gw2 has the best MMO community in the world.

Since HoT masteries won’t play any role in old content that won’t be an issue.

They do. It’s already been revealed there will at least be a Fractal Mastery line. There might be more.

Masteries you get in HoT won’t affect non-HoT content. I guess the Fractal Mastery will be earned in Fractals (giving higher Agony Resistance maybe? To go beyond level 50?)

So let me get this straight, it’s ok if the content is gated behind masteries cause that’s how mmos work. It’s totally ok to not be able to fight a mob until you’ve grinded the mastery for it, cause well gating is what mmos do. But it’s not ok to add 20 lvls to the game cause that would be gating. Have I got this right?

Good thing we got the masteries and we won’t have to grind for gear. Cause that would invalidate our gear right? ‘xcept the bit were our gear doesn’t count for kittens if we don’t have the masteries. Please god, make it so at the very least masteries won’t give you abilities cause if they do, we’ll all be running around with our utility skills mastery filled. We’ll all be the same class. “The mastery user”

I like this alternative advancement system already!

maddoctor.2738:

Tom Gore.4035:

maddoctor.2738:

Iason Evan.3806:

darkace.8925:

BilboBaggins.5620:

And they said that once you’ve started masteries your nameplate will show your mastery score, sounds like WoW gear score to me.

That bit definitely caught my eye. I really don’t see how displaying a player’s mastery score is going to bring anything but trouble.

“Arah P2 250MP and 15k AP ONLY or don’t join”.

Nah, that will never happen. Gw2 has the best MMO community in the world.

Since HoT masteries won’t play any role in old content that won’t be an issue.

They do. It’s already been revealed there will at least be a Fractal Mastery line. There might be more.

Masteries you get in HoT won’t affect non-HoT content. I guess the Fractal Mastery will be earned in Fractals (giving higher Agony Resistance maybe? To go beyond level 50?)

I guess you’re mixing Heart of Thorns (the expansion) with Heart of Maguuma (the region). Fractal Mastery by what was explained, can be earned anywhere outside Heart of Maguuma region (or rather, the “old world”).

PorceleinEve.2973:

So let me get this straight, it’s ok if the content is gated behind masteries cause that’s how mmos work. It’s totally ok to not be able to fight a mob until you’ve grinded the mastery for it, cause well gating is what mmos do. But it’s not ok to add 20 lvls to the game cause that would be gating. Have I got this right?

Actually that’s how a lot of games work (particularly open world games), they don’t allow you to see part of their content because you don’t have a specific item or skill, like in most action adventure games and lots of RPGs. MMORPGs don’t use masteries but levels and new gear tiers. The big difference is that a mastery is locking you for a reason, you can’t glide to the next part if you don’t have the glider, while gear and level gates you with simple Math (not enough damage, 1-shotted by mobs etc)

Good thing we got the masteries and we won’t have to grind for gear. Cause that would invalidate our gear right? ‘xcept the bit were our gear doesn’t count for kittens if we don’t have the masteries. Please god, make it so at the very least masteries won’t give you abilities cause if they do, we’ll all be running around with our utility skills mastery filled. We’ll all be the same class. “The mastery user”

Masteries give you new abilities, instead of improving your existing ones. The difference between “not able to do because math is not high enough” and “not able to do it because you don’t have xyz ability” is rather large. It’s been used to great effect in other games, while the level/gear system isn’t very popular in other genres for a very good reason.

I like this alternative advancement system already!

Same here!

PorceleinEve.2973:

So let me get this straight, it’s ok if the content is gated behind masteries cause that’s how mmos work. It’s totally ok to not be able to fight a mob until you’ve grinded the mastery for it, cause well gating is what mmos do. But it’s not ok to add 20 lvls to the game cause that would be gating. Have I got this right?

Good thing we got the masteries and we won’t have to grind for gear. Cause that would invalidate our gear right? ‘xcept the bit were our gear doesn’t count for kittens if we don’t have the masteries. Please god, make it so at the very least masteries won’t give you abilities cause if they do, we’ll all be running around with our utility skills mastery filled. We’ll all be the same class. “The mastery user”

I like this alternative advancement system already!

Well we still don’t know how high the gate is and if you can “bypass” it by just being good/resilient enough.

Tom Gore.4035:

maddoctor.2738:

Tom Gore.4035:

maddoctor.2738:

Iason Evan.3806:

darkace.8925:

BilboBaggins.5620:

And they said that once you’ve started masteries your nameplate will show your mastery score, sounds like WoW gear score to me.

That bit definitely caught my eye. I really don’t see how displaying a player’s mastery score is going to bring anything but trouble.

“Arah P2 250MP and 15k AP ONLY or don’t join”.

Nah, that will never happen. Gw2 has the best MMO community in the world.

Since HoT masteries won’t play any role in old content that won’t be an issue.

They do. It’s already been revealed there will at least be a Fractal Mastery line. There might be more.

Masteries you get in HoT won’t affect non-HoT content. I guess the Fractal Mastery will be earned in Fractals (giving higher Agony Resistance maybe? To go beyond level 50?)

I guess you’re mixing Heart of Thorns (the expansion) with Heart of Maguuma (the region). Fractal Mastery by what was explained, can be earned anywhere outside Heart of Maguuma region (or rather, the “old world”).

The original quote:

“Arah P2 250MP and 15k AP ONLY or don’t join”.

Since any masteries earned in the new content won’t be useful in the old content, then I don’t see a problem. It’s not like you will go fight some Mordrem and get extra damage vs Risen or anything silly like that.

“I would rather have content that a portion of the people in the game can’t get past if they are not good enough skill-wise to do so. They will have to practice it and practice it again until they are good enough.”

Don’t quote me out of context next time. You left out the last sentence which changes what I said dramatically.

It really didn’t change anything. Skill grind is even worse than gear grind, because at least with gear grind you’re guaranteed to get there eventually, while with skill grind, you may never be able to max it out.

Ohoni.6057:

“I would rather have content that a portion of the people in the game can’t get past if they are not good enough skill-wise to do so. They will have to practice it and practice it again until they are good enough.”

Don’t quote me out of context next time. You left out the last sentence which changes what I said dramatically.

It really didn’t change anything. Skill grind is even worse than gear grind, because at least with gear grind you’re guaranteed to get there eventually, while with skill grind, you may never be able to max it out.

It was like that in Guild Wars 1 and it worked there. If you weren’t good enough to be DOA, you didn’t beat DOA…and somehow life went on.

I didn’t beat Liadri. I didn’t particularly try. What is this idea that you have to be able to do everything?

I think the combat mastery will probably be something similar to the Lightbringer title in GW1.

We’ll still be able to fight champion and stuff, just that by maxing this mastery we’ll have certain utilities and bonus that helps us do so.
Like being holy lightbringer and using lightbringer’s gaze on a margonite.

Ohoni.6057:

“I would rather have content that a portion of the people in the game can’t get past if they are not good enough skill-wise to do so. They will have to practice it and practice it again until they are good enough.”

Don’t quote me out of context next time. You left out the last sentence which changes what I said dramatically.

It really didn’t change anything. Skill grind is even worse than gear grind, because at least with gear grind you’re guaranteed to get there eventually, while with skill grind, you may never be able to max it out.

So you mean the second highest tier raiding gear is “guaranteed to get there” for everyone?

maddoctor.2738:

Actually that’s how a lot of games work (particularly open world games), they don’t allow you to see part of their content because you don’t have a specific item or skill, like in most action adventure games and lots of RPGs. MMORPGs don’t use masteries but levels and new gear tiers. The big difference is that a mastery is locking you for a reason, you can’t glide to the next part if you don’t have the glider, while gear and level gates you with simple Math (not enough damage, 1-shotted by mobs etc)

Masteries give you new abilities, instead of improving your existing ones. The difference between “not able to do because math is not high enough” and “not able to do it because you don’t have xyz ability” is rather large. It’s been used to great effect in other games, while the level/gear system isn’t very popular in other genres for a very good reason.

It’s the exact same thing, you can’t kill mob x cause it outlvls you or you can’t kill it cause you don’t have “tough bark penetration rank 5”… the exact same thing. Let’s not kid ourselves it will be anything else and spare ourselves the disappointment.

And yes that’s what i’m afraid of, the giving of new abilities, availiable to all. So a guardian and a thief will have the same abilities. I’m afraid it will dilute the classes into one, the mastery user. I don’t want any abilities at all via masteries. Certainly not ones i can “equip”. That would make the jungle a super boring place for me.

Highly highly sceptical of this system. Especially if it’s not easy as hell to get masteries. Last thing I want is a bunch of mastery kitten kittens in general chat, calling other players noobs or whatnot.

People like to complaint and want everything to be exactly how they want. For god’s sake, just play the kitten expansion. Old MMO were way more grind than anything in GW2, and they were loved games. Stop with this “omg I’m forced to play the game to play the game”.

Vayne.8563:

What is this idea that you have to be able to do everything?

Must have gotten it from the play as you want, do what you want and be rewarded for it, there’s no right path to playing this game, we’re all inclusive statements the devs have been putting out there since before the game’s launch.

The game has been super casual friendly, and making a turn now after 3 years into more “hardcore” (were have we heard that one before i wonder) territory, can only harm it, player wise. I mean we are talking about the game with the “oh you logged in, here have a reward” mentality. You can’t go from that to “work your kitty kitten soldier and get that mastery high high in the sky to kill that mordrem or else” mentality and don’t get any sort of blowback.

PorceleinEve.2973:

maddoctor.2738:

Actually that’s how a lot of games work (particularly open world games), they don’t allow you to see part of their content because you don’t have a specific item or skill, like in most action adventure games and lots of RPGs. MMORPGs don’t use masteries but levels and new gear tiers. The big difference is that a mastery is locking you for a reason, you can’t glide to the next part if you don’t have the glider, while gear and level gates you with simple Math (not enough damage, 1-shotted by mobs etc)

Masteries give you new abilities, instead of improving your existing ones. The difference between “not able to do because math is not high enough” and “not able to do it because you don’t have xyz ability” is rather large. It’s been used to great effect in other games, while the level/gear system isn’t very popular in other genres for a very good reason.

It’s the exact same thing, you can’t kill mob x cause it outlvls you or you can’t kill it cause you don’t have “tough bark penetration rank 5”… the exact same thing. Let’s not kid ourselves it will be anything else and spare ourselves the disappointment.

And yes that’s what i’m afraid of, the giving of new abilities, availiable to all. So a guardian and a thief will have the same abilities. I’m afraid it will dilute the classes into one, the mastery user. I don’t want any abilities at all via masteries. Certainly not ones i can “equip”. That would make the jungle a super boring place for me.

Highly highly sceptical of this system. Especially if it’s not easy as hell to get masteries. Last thing I want is a bunch of mastery kitten kittens in general chat, calling other players noobs or whatnot.

Yet the only mastery they talked about is the hang glider which allows you to float and fly and nothing like tough “bark penetration rank 5”. Masteries will allow you to reach places you couldn’t before, they are not all about Combat you know…

Although it was mentioned that you might need a mastery to defeat some Mordrem, it was also stated that you CAN defeat them without the mastery, it will only be more difficult.

I hope its not a hard gate. Id like to be able to complete combat encounters without the masteries even if it means its ten times harder.

PorceleinEve.2973:

Vayne.8563:

What is this idea that you have to be able to do everything?

Must have gotten it from the play as you want, do what you want and be rewarded for it, there’s no right path to playing this game, we’re all inclusive statements the devs have been putting out there since before the game’s launch.

The game has been super casual friendly, and making a turn now after 3 years into more “hardcore” (were have we heard that one before i wonder) territory, can only harm it, player wise. I mean we are talking about the game with the “oh you logged in, here have a reward” mentality. You can’t go from that to “work your kitty kitten soldier and get that mastery high high in the sky to kill that mordrem or else” mentality and don’t get any sort of blowback.

Yet, players asked for horizontal progression which is exactly what the Masteries, and also asked for no gear tiers or higher level caps. Masteries solve all the problems at once while also fulfilling the commitement of the devs to the community.

maddoctor.2738:

Although it was mentioned that you might need a mastery to defeat some Mordrem, it was also stated that you CAN defeat them without the mastery, it will only be more difficult.

Same way a lvl 10 can beat a lvl 40 mob as long as he dodges successfully and have 4 hours of time to produce a death by a thousand tiny cuts?

Gliding and lore masteries are excellent ideas, combat ones are not (in my opinion always). Messes up with the game’s theme, it divides players. It’s not good (again in my opinion, cause folks seem to be confused often).

Why punish the guy who fancies lore or gliding by not giving him what he needs to take down mobs? And vice versa. If combat masteries are weak sauce, why spend points on ‘em when you can learn how to soar in the sky. They can’t win with this one. Combat masteries are bad (IMO)

maddoctor.2738:

Yet, players asked for horizontal progression which is exactly what the Masteries, and also asked for no gear tiers or higher level caps. Masteries solve all the problems at once while also fulfilling the commitement of the devs to the community.

A shocking truth, but players don’t always know best. I know I know.

Horizontal progression is awesome, but not at the expense of the nature of the game. You rarelly can change the rules of the game mid way and get away with it. The game started as an easy to get into, easy to do stuff, have fun for fun’s sake game, and it must remain as such or suffer for it.

So horizontal progression yes. Changing the nature of the game (which btw has made it the second biggest mmo around) maybe not so much a yes? just sayin’

I mean they can make the masteries a super fun thing, look at the movement and lore bit. It’s the combat bit that’s gotten me worried ….

PorceleinEve.2973:

maddoctor.2738:

Although it was mentioned that you might need a mastery to defeat some Mordrem, it was also stated that you CAN defeat them without the mastery, it will only be more difficult.

Same way a lvl 10 can beat a lvl 40 mob as long as he dodges successfully and have 4 hours of time to produce a death by a thousand tiny cuts?

Gliding and lore masteries are excellent ideas, combat ones are not (in my opinion always). Messes up with the game’s theme, it divides players. It’s not good (again in my opinion, cause folks seem to be confused often).

Why punish the guy who fancies lore or gliding by not giving him what he needs to take down mobs? And vice versa. If combat masteries are weak sauce, why spend points on ‘em when you can learn how to soar in the sky. They can’t win with this one. Combat masteries are bad (IMO)

One way to do these Combat Masteries well is to make them work mostly in the “new” Hardcore content of HoT. Needing a combat mastery to defeat some random mobs roaming around isn’t going to be fun at all. Needing ALL the masteries (or at least most of them) unlocked in order to do the final pieces of content makes more sense.

I DO hope we will get tons of exploration and lore masteries and the combat masteries will be a lot fewer.

maddoctor.2738:

One way to do these Combat Masteries well is to make them work mostly in the “new” Hardcore content of HoT. Needing a combat mastery to defeat some random mobs roaming around isn’t going to be fun at all. Needing ALL the masteries (or at least most of them) unlocked in order to do the final pieces of content makes more sense.

I DO hope we will get tons of exploration and lore masteries and the combat masteries will be a lot fewer.

Right there with ya my friend…

ps – everytime i read the word hardcore i cringe a little…

PorceleinEve.2973:

Highly highly sceptical of this system. Especially if it’s not easy as hell to get masteries. Last thing I want is a bunch of mastery kitten kittens in general chat, calling other players noobs or whatnot.

Being sceptical is fine, but it still remains to be seen. There’s nowhere where it says that you NEED specific masteries for random mobs. Only that you get things that help you to kill them better. Plus it wouldn’t make any sense, ArenaNet only have done that once, which was with the mursaat, and that was a lore/story progression decision and any gated content in GW1 and GW2 was mostly as part of the natural progression through the game. I have never seen them deliberately slow you down in order to let people take ages and ages of time. Do other MMOs do that? Perhaps. Does that mean GW2 will do so (Because MMO!)? Unlikely, GW2 is already a very different MMO than most.

FrizzFreston.5290:

Being sceptical is fine, but it still remains to be seen. There’s nowhere where it says that you NEED specific masteries for random mobs. Only that you get things that help you to kill them better. Plus it wouldn’t make any sense, ArenaNet only have done that once, which was with the mursaat, and that was a lore/story progression decision and any gated content in GW1 and GW2 was mostly as part of the natural progression through the game. I have never seen them deliberately slow you down in order to let people take ages and ages of time. Do other MMOs do that? Perhaps. Does that mean GW2 will do so (Because MMO!)? Unlikely, GW2 is already a very different MMO than most.

Well I don’t know if you noticed, that there’s a trend that’s slowly creeping up on us. As time passes I’m hearing more and more the words challenging and hardcore. And I’m not alone in this. Others have noticed too. That’s why I’m sceptical. Ofcourse everyone is giving them the benefit of the doubt, but still it’s good to voice your concerns none the less. So they know…

And to be quite frank, the combat masteries system does sound like a system deliberately made to slow you down… as I said highly sceptical but as always we’ll eventually find out. Won’t we?

It is very unlikely that they will lock any main story behind the mastery “grind”.
Based on what we have heard it sounds much more like giving access and abilities for OPTIONAL out of the way content. So I really don’t see how that would be much of an issue, even if it requires some “grinding” (it seems to basically just require playing the game in the area).

Why punish the guy who fancies lore or gliding by not giving him what he needs to take down mobs? And vice versa. If combat masteries are weak sauce, why spend points on ‘em when you can learn how to soar in the sky. They can’t win with this one. Combat masteries are bad (IMO)

It doesn’t seem to be a “punishment” to me, so long as the things you can reach via the travel masteries are as rewarding as the loot from the “hardcore” bosses. It’s a tricky balance, but I have faith they can reach it. I expect it to be a system of constantly opening options. Like maybe there will be several areas that can be reached as soon as you learn to glide, but not before. And others that can be reached as soon as you learn to shroom-hop, but not before. And then others that require both skills and can’t be reached until you have both. And then there will be bosses that require bark armor as much as high end Fractals require high agony resist, and you could do those right away with the bark armor. But then there will be others that require that armor, but also can’t be reached unless you can glide to them. I imagine the endgame content of the patch, the absolute ultimate encounters, will require you to have all or most of the masteries at some level, both the combat ones to survive the encounters, and the traversal ones to get there.

One way to do these Combat Masteries well is to make them work mostly in the “new” Hardcore content of HoT. Needing a combat mastery to defeat some random mobs roaming around isn’t going to be fun at all.

If it ONLY impacts bosses though then that would be a kind of lame ability, too situational. The way I would see it is not to have a random mob that is all over the place that would require a series mastery, but maybe you have a few areas of the maps that mostly consist of a given mob, so if you want to get anything done in that one area then you definitely need to power up.

Think of it like that Hylek-filled mini-dungeon in Caledon Forest, the one with the tile puzzles. Let’s say most of a Jungle map is relatively normal, with normal enemies, but there is an area like that, and the enemies in there all deal some massive damage attacks if you lack the armor mastery. So if you want to do that dungeon, you’d stand almost no chance without the mastery, but if you don’t have it, you’re still safe in most of the map.

They could also have alternate paths through content, like imagine you have a ravine in the middle of the map. You can climb down to the bottom of it and pass through, and then up to the other side, but the enemies are all “hardcore” and require a mastery to survive them. Alternately, you could glide over the ravine, or use jump pads to get across it, and skip those monsters. There could even be a secret tunnel, or unlockable NPC “tour guide” that could escort you through the area if you had the right languages unlocked. This would allow different players to get through so long as they had a couple of points in their skills, without requiring any specific skill.

Beast Sos.1457:

Without them you cant kill certain mobs or you cant explore certain areas. This is pretty much forcing you to go grind areas you dont want to play in or content you dont want to do so you can play what you want.

If you do not want to play the content that gives you mastery points (and for which to beat you need these special mastery points), then do not play this content.

Beast Sos.1457:

That is something that goes against Anets philosophy.

Nope.

Greetings.

It says a lot about the mentality of the forum users that the FIRST thing they think when they see a new progression system is “why are we being locked out of this content?” This content that we’ve never had any access to in the past. This content that is designed entirely to be end-game content, which many people have been incessantly demanding since shortly after release.

Maybe you’re not aware, but when they release content that isn’t gated, it gets done immediately, and then people come on here and kitten about having nothing to do…

Andred.1087:

It says a lot about the mentality of the forum users that the FIRST thing they think when they see a new progression system is “why are we being locked out of this content?” This content that we’ve never had any access to in the past. This content that is designed entirely to be end-game content, which many people have been incessantly demanding since shortly after release.

Maybe you’re not aware, but when they release content that isn’t gated, it gets done immediately, and then people come on here and kitten about having nothing to do…

but isn’t that the motif of this game? that there is no end game content? that you don’t have to grind, what happened to the no grind philosophy? isn’t this the reason why legendaries and ascended gear have like 5% difference from exotics?

in the end, it’s not our obligation to produce content that’s both fun and long lasting, it’s theirs. are they not selling us the expansion? for money? if they do, it’s a product, they’re not doing us a favour here. so as customers we get to express our opinions. opinions that were formed based on their previous behaviour, their statements about what kind of a game this is, and of course our own personal preferences and biases….

PorceleinEve.2973:

Andred.1087:

It says a lot about the mentality of the forum users that the FIRST thing they think when they see a new progression system is “why are we being locked out of this content?” This content that we’ve never had any access to in the past. This content that is designed entirely to be end-game content, which many people have been incessantly demanding since shortly after release.

Maybe you’re not aware, but when they release content that isn’t gated, it gets done immediately, and then people come on here and kitten about having nothing to do…

but isn’t that the motif of this game? that there is no end game content? that you don’t have to grind, what happened to the no grind philosophy? isn’t this the reason why legendaries and ascended gear have like 5% difference from exotics?

in the end, it’s not our obligation to produce content that’s both fun and long lasting, it’s theirs. are they not selling us the expansion? for money? if they do, it’s a product, they’re not doing us a favour here. so as customers we get to express our opinions. opinions that were formed based on their previous behaviour, their statements about what kind of a game this is, and of course our own personal preferences and biases….

no, the motif of the game is that endgame starts at level 1. that every task you do is relevant now and later. every zone remains relevant even at level 80. every dungeon is endgame, even the one you unlocked back at level 30.

the problem starts when people misread that as “i can have everything now or else the manifesto lied to me” (can you tell how tired i am of the “manifesto said different” complaint?). no, it didn’t lie to you. it said you wouldn’t have to keep doing the same content over and over to achieve any semblance of progression. and you don’t. you still don’t. you can do a ton of different content to unlock mastery tracks, and then you can do literally whatever gives you exp to progress those tracks. there are people (myself included) that actually wanted the system to be far more restrictive than it is, but we know that ANet chose this way because it’s their policy to not force people down a single content type.

the main problem with masteries is it took too long for ANet to bring the system to the game, and players spent over two years running around with their fully geared lv80s, with nothing else to achieve, no obstacles in their way. now that ANet is like “ok, we finally figured a way to add obstacles to those lv80s without making them throw away everything they have so far”, players are like “but we didn’t have obstacles, we don’t want them”

BrunoBRS.5178:

no, the motif of the game is that endgame starts at level 1. that every task you do is relevant now and later. every zone remains relevant even at level 80. every dungeon is endgame, even the one you unlocked back at level 30.

the problem starts when people misread that as “i can have everything now or else the manifesto lied to me” (can you tell how tired i am of the “manifesto said different” complaint?). no, it didn’t lie to you. it said you wouldn’t have to keep doing the same content over and over to achieve any semblance of progression. and you don’t. you still don’t. you can do a ton of different content to unlock mastery tracks, and then you can do literally whatever gives you exp to progress those tracks. there are people (myself included) that actually wanted the system to be far more restrictive than it is, but we know that ANet chose this way because it’s their policy to not force people down a single content type.

if that is the motif of the game (i disagree but never mind that) having masteries then is most certainly against your stated motif for the game. since cutting the world in half for mastery acquisition would esentially mean that the other half is “worthless” now.

the manifesto did lie. too many promises. and just because you’re tired of it, that doesn’t make the complaints about it any less true. and i totally understand that you are ok with the manifesto failing, but others still have the right to not be.

and with masteries being unlocked via specific tasks, you now DO have to do the same content again and again and again, especially if that point is hidden behind some arbitrary “achievement” like do this adventure in 4 seconds instead of the usual 5. so you can expect the complaints to rise and not fall with the expansion.

we don’t know how free or restrictive is the system cause we haven’t seen it in action. but i do feel like reminding the folks that another game tried the “hardcore” approach. it didn’t work well for them, be careful what you wish for…

BrunoBRS.5178:

the main problem with masteries is it took too long for ANet to bring the system to the game, and players spent over two years running around with their fully geared lv80s, with nothing else to achieve, no obstacles in their way. now that ANet is like “ok, we finally figured a way to add obstacles to those lv80s without making them throw away everything they have so far”, players are like “but we didn’t have obstacles, we don’t want them”

then they should have planned better. don’t blame the players for the company’s mistakes.

Why is Gear Grind a bad thing? Because of the mechanism by which it is done. How do you grind gear? You run an event, typically a raid, over and over. Why do you run it over and over? Because you are not guaranteed the item you need to improve your gear just by running the event. So you have to keep running it until you finally get the item you need. Then you need to run another event over and over until you get that item.

That’s why it’s a grind, because it’s doing the same thing ad nauseam with only a chance to progress. That, and only that, is what a Gear Grind actually is.

This is not that. In this you do any special task to get your point. Then you choose which item you want to progress. Finally you gain that item simply by playing the game. You are guaranteed the item you want. You don’t have to do the same thing over and over. You cannot fail to get the item you’re working for. There is just a delay of time in how long it takes to earn it.

This is not a Gear Grind. It is a gate, but it is not much more of a gate than leveling in general is a gate.

Kal Spiro.9745:

That’s why it’s a grind, because it’s doing the same thing ad nauseam with only a chance to progress. That, and only that, is what a Gear Grind actually is.

This is not that. In this you do any special task to get your point. Then you choose which item you want to progress. Finally you gain that item simply by playing the game. You are guaranteed the item you want. You don’t have to do the same thing over and over. You cannot fail to get the item you’re working for. There is just a delay of time in how long it takes to earn it.

This is not a Gear Grind. It is a gate, but it is not much more of a gate than leveling in general is a gate.

“Each Mastery track is tied to a region of Tyria—they must be unlocked with Mastery points gained in that region and can only be trained in that region.”

from their blog post… so if you want to raise a specific mastery you’ll have to be in a specific region, doing again and again and again stuff that grant you experience in that region, otherwise no cigar. Not much different from running a raid, only you can possibly solo it (we don’t know yet) and you’ll get the desired result in the end, but we don’t have a time estimate on how long that will be, not with higher tier masteries requiring more and more experience gained.

So, you don’t grind a raid now, you grind a zone, you don’t have rng to hope/fear you"ll get lucky/unlucky, and eventually you get what you want. don’t sound all that different from gear grind to me. specially the grind bit.

and let’s not forget that each mastery point is unique so you can’t use a point gained in another area to unlock any area’s masteries, only the specific ones tied to the area you got the point.

The potential of the system and the ways it can go catastrophically wrong are staggering. They’re running on good faith right now, but if they don’t get it right, the blowback will be amazing. I so so so hope they’ll get it right. I like the game a lot.

PorceleinEve.2973:

Each Mastery track is tied to a region of Tyria—they must be unlocked with Mastery points gained in that region and can only be trained in that region."

from their blog post… so if you want to raise a specific mastery you’ll have to be in a specific region, doing again and again and again stuff that grant you experience in that region, otherwise no cigar. Not much different from running a raid, only you can possibly solo it (we don’t know yet) and you’ll get the desired result in the end, but we don’t have a time estimate on how long that will be, not with higher tier masteries requiring more and more experience gained.

There are only two regions. Old and New. Old is the entirety of GW2 as we currently know it. New is every single thing that will be introduced with HoT. So, no, it’s not like doing a Raid at all. You play in the New areas and you earn XP. You will probably get your first Mastery Point by doing the very first story in the new area, which you will absolutely be able to do without Masteries. So you play the content, and just do what you want and you level up your track.

Play the way you want is their goal, and they are still accomplishing it. This is not a Gear Grind.

Kal Spiro.9745:

There are only two regions. Old and New. Old is the entirety of GW2 as we currently know it. New is every single thing that will be introduced with HoT. So, no, it’s not like doing a Raid at all. You play in the New areas and you earn XP. You will probably get your first Mastery Point by doing the very first story in the new area, which you will absolutely be able to do without Masteries. So you play the content, and just do what you want and you level up your track.

Play the way you want is their goal, and they are still accomplishing it. This is not a Gear Grind.

If that is true, then I stand corrected, that’s a much more flexible system. Less of a grind.

ps – thanks for editing that to include an accusation though, loved it