Guild Wars 2

draxynnic.3719:

The backstabbing is that the other elder races were relying on the mursaat to hold their part of the alliance, and the mursaat found a way to hide and took it instead of supporting their allies.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Saul and the White Mantle used their new found faith and knowledge to drive back the Charr, and by this point he White Mantle became so powerful that it turned into a government (more so than a mere religious following…. but still heavily influenced by worship of the Mursaat). Peace to Kryta was restored thanks to the White Mantle and their newly found gods.

Saul and the Mantle, unsatisfied with their newly achieved peace, and against the will of the Mursaat, made an attempt to assassinate the Charr leaders….. and although they were successful, the Charr army closed in upon them shortly afterward, seemingly sealing their fate.

This is completely wrong. I’ve just reviewed the Rise of the White Mantle mission, and:

1) Kryta was definitely NOT at peace at the time. The mission starts with defending a village that was under attack by the charr.

2) There is no indication that the mursaat disapproved of the plan to assassinate the charr leaders. In fact, if anything, it seems that this is the only time that the mursaat actually played a direct part in fighting against the charr – forming the White Mantle, rallying the people of Kryta, and keeping the charr at bay up to that point was all Saul’s doing with no direct assistance from the mursaat.

Regarding the rest:

As you may have noticed, the question of whether killing others to help yourself is a neutral or evil act is a highly controversial moral question. Personally, I consider it to be evil. At the risk of Godwinning the thread, looking to wipe out every member of the population with a certain characteristic because you believe they might pose a threat to you was an action that historically led to the leaders that did so being declared as the worst of villains in human history.

Arguably the mursaat had better reason to believe the Chosen were a threat, but… as people noted above, it became a self-fulfilling prophecy. If the mursaat had done nothing, they would not have triggered the conditions under which the Prophecies had occurred. They did also make for complex villains – they did, for instance, have enough scruple not to simply let the charr destroy Kryta (although they may have realised that the charr army that went to Kryta did not actually have the strength to defeat Kryta once Kryta got organised – Saul accelerated the organisation but if he hadn’t done it likely someone else would have stepped up, and while that delay would have allowed the charr to push further, at the time most of the important sites in Kryta were further south… and there’s no evidence that the Krytan charr army had Cauldrons. Its purpose seemed mainly as a diversion to prevent Kryta from sending aid to Ascalon or Orr).

However, somebody with a less ruthless attitude to the lives of others would have sought another way. Consider, if the promise to train the Chosen in magic had not been a lie, the mursaat could have turned those Chosen that they were able to find into allies, and may have avoided the scenario where a group of Chosen slipped under their radar, discovered the sacrifices, and went on the warpath.

You certainly can’t say the White Mantle were bad while the mursaat were good. The Mantle was following, directly or indirectly, the mandate of the mursaat – while “following orders” is not regarded as an excuse, culpability is also held by those who gave the orders.

….Well… I’m pretty sure the bonus mission pack glosses over quite a few things.

Think about what you are saying and what happens in the bonus mission.

You are defending your people….. then only in text at the very end do you read:

“The Unseen Ones killed all but their most devoted worshippers.”

Saul is the reason the White Mantle even exist, and he if anyone would be their most devoted follower.

Why would they kill him for defending his people?

They kill him because he goes against their will and launches and offensive.

The actual lore about saul states:

In the last offensive of the war against the Charr, Saul led his troops deep into Charr territory. His network of spies, though normally quite effective, failed him on this day. The Charr were waiting in ambush, and the beastly creatures slaughtered Saul’s unit to the man.

He is not defending an allied city….. he is deep in charr territory.
Defensive =/= Offensive
The “Rise of the White Mantle” =/= the fall of Saul D’Alessio

They give the end to Saul’s story in text (which happens a while later) after they let you play the beginning.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

I won’t discount it being the mursaat though I will have my opinion of being allies with the very people who punked out like cowards after the previous rise of the dragons.

I don’t see how they can be of any help, all they know how to do is run away and cherry pick on races after they’re spent against the dragons.

I think they’d make interesting ‘allies’ storywise for a few reasons:

1) Their offensive power is undeniable, spectral agony sucks
2) They know more than anyone about the dragons, meguuma, and magic.

Point 2 is especially important, all the other races from the prior time are gone or hopelessly devolved. The Mursaat were active and powerful as late as 250 years ago with their entire culture and history intact. They’d be extremely useful as allies.

~~~

They’d also be extremely problematic and troubling as allies. Their history with the WM and humans is very dark, and their most notable racial trait is ‘self-serving traitors’. The thing is, this dichotomy makes for a pretty good story. Getting what you can from the Mursaat while at the same time trying to keep them from getting you in a position where they can hurt you too badly when they stab you in the back is interesting and dramatic.

Them being untrustworthy and dodgy is what would make them interesting as allies.

draxynnic.3719:

s.
Regarding the rest:

As you may have noticed, the question of whether killing others to help yourself is a neutral or evil act is a highly controversial moral question. Personally, I consider it to be evil. At the risk of Godwinning the thread, looking to wipe out every member of the population with a certain characteristic because you believe they might pose a threat to you was an action that historically led to the leaders that did so being declared as the worst of villains in human history.

It depend on the situation.

Well if they don’t do that, the seal would have been broken and the Titan would come out, it’s like they would spare Kryta right? It’s more of a “sacrifice a few to save the whole” situation.

and the last fight made it pretty clear, with the pact wiped we’re going to need the intel and help. Trahearne had 20 years to study Zhaitan, there’s not time for that with Mordy.

Windsagio.1340:

I think they’d make interesting ‘allies’ storywise for a few reasons:

1) Their offensive power is undeniable, spectral agony sucks
2) They know more than anyone about the dragons, meguuma, and magic.

Point 2 is especially important, all the other races from the prior time are gone or hopelessly devolved. The Mursaat were active and powerful as late as 250 years ago with their entire culture and history intact. They’d be extremely useful as allies.

~~~

They’d also be extremely problematic and troubling as allies. Their history with the WM and humans is very dark, and their most notable racial trait is ‘self-serving traitors’. The thing is, this dichotomy makes for a pretty good story. Getting what you can from the Mursaat while at the same time trying to keep them from getting you in a position where they can hurt you too badly when they stab you in the back is interesting and dramatic.

Them being untrustworthy and dodgy is what would make them interesting as allies.

To be fair, the history between Mursaat and humans weren’t that dark compare to Charr and humans.

Windsagio.1340:

and the last fight made it pretty clear, with the pact wiped we’re going to need the intel and help. Trahearne had 20 years to study Zhaitan, there’s not time for that with Mordy.

Yes, the Mursaat also have a lot of knowledge on magic.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

>Mursaat
>Allies

I don’t want to be allies with the very race that backstabbed everyone else the last time the dragons awoke.

What are you even talking about?

The last time the dragons awoke as in the time before this current dragon apocalypse, as in before the humans came here.

The Seers proposed the idea of sealing away all magic into blood stones in an attempt to starve the dragons. The Mursaat had found an alternate method via escaping into the mists leaving dwarvs, jotun, char, seers, you name it to fend for themselves.

The Mursaat left everyone to die, returned and almost obliterated the Seers.

No offense but this is almost as absurd as Abaddon being some kind of anti hero batman all along.

It never says the Mursaat abandoned anyone….. they simply used their own powers to escape.

at risk of being really meta, why is this position so important to you leech?

It’s pretty clear that the Mursaat were supposed to be some of the main villains in Prophecies.

Windsagio.1340:

at risk of being really meta, why is this position so important to you leech?

It’s pretty clear that the Mursaat were supposed to be some of the main villains in Prophecies.

Still, the PC think they are “trying to protect the world” after learning the truth.

Windsagio.1340:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

I won’t discount it being the mursaat though I will have my opinion of being allies with the very people who punked out like cowards after the previous rise of the dragons.

I don’t see how they can be of any help, all they know how to do is run away and cherry pick on races after they’re spent against the dragons.

I think they’d make interesting ‘allies’ storywise for a few reasons:

1) Their offensive power is undeniable, spectral agony sucks
2) They know more than anyone about the dragons, meguuma, and magic.

Point 2 is especially important, all the other races from the prior time are gone or hopelessly devolved. The Mursaat were active and powerful as late as 250 years ago with their entire culture and history intact. They’d be extremely useful as allies.

~~~

They’d also be extremely problematic and troubling as allies. Their history with the WM and humans is very dark, and their most notable racial trait is ‘self-serving traitors’. The thing is, this dichotomy makes for a pretty good story. Getting what you can from the Mursaat while at the same time trying to keep them from getting you in a position where they can hurt you too badly when they stab you in the back is interesting and dramatic.

Them being untrustworthy and dodgy is what would make them interesting as allies.

Dwarves and Forgotten probably know more about the dragons than the Mursaat. What the Mursaat know best is how to run away. The Mursaat are the cheese eating surrender monkeys of Tyria.

dwarves and forgotten are both essentially extinct though.

Windsagio.1340:

at risk of being really meta, why is this position so important to you leech?

It’s pretty clear that the Mursaat were supposed to be some of the main villains in Prophecies.

To me, Prophecies really didn’t paint them as “bad guys”. Rather, they showed them as all forms – first as “Unseen Gods” while with the White Mantle, next as “evil controlling murderers” while with the Shining Blade, then finally revealed as “a race doing what they must to protect themselves and, ultimately, protect Tyria as a whole (from the titans)”.

At the very least, you were shown both sides, the good and the bad, then left to decide whether their actions were just or unjust when their intentions and the results of their actions were revealed.

narwhalsbend.7059:

Windsagio.1340:

at risk of being really meta, why is this position so important to you leech?

It’s pretty clear that the Mursaat were supposed to be some of the main villains in Prophecies.

To me, Prophecies really didn’t paint them as “bad guys”. Rather, they showed them as all forms – first as “Unseen Gods” while with the White Mantle, next as “evil controlling murderers” while with the Shining Blade, then finally revealed as “a race doing what they must to protect themselves and, ultimately, protect Tyria as a whole (from the titans)”.

At the very least, you were shown both sides, the good and the bad, then left to decide whether their actions were just or unjust when their intentions and the results of their actions were revealed.

They also saved Kryta from the Charr.

Windsagio.1340:

at risk of being really meta, why is this position so important to you leech?

It’s pretty clear that the Mursaat were supposed to be some of the main villains in Prophecies.

I just really like the mursaat…. and their role in the original Guild Wars…. and I read a lot about their lore…. and I am not even a lore nut like some people are…

I just really think the Mursaat are cool….. they are shrouded in mystery.
They have enemies like the Seers which are equally bizarre and mysterious…
They are powerful…. one of the toughest foes in Guild Wars… and I would love to see more players educated in their (fictional and in-game) history.

Many people think the Mursaat are “bad guys” just because they are against the player in GW1…… but in all reality YOU are helping the bad guys…. and that’s why they want you dead.

It would only make sense that a Neutral race that is threatened with extermination would make a great ally in the fight against mordremoth.

Like the old saying….

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Windsagio.1340:

dwarves and forgotten are both essentially extinct though.

At the very least, Ogden is “alive”. It can be assumed that other dwarves are “alive” as well since the surface of Tyria is not totally swarming with destroyers.

The Forgotten haven’t been seen, but that doesn’t mean they’re gone. They’re called “Forgotten” for a reason.

Windsagio.1340:

dwarves and forgotten are both essentially extinct though.

Have you seen any Mursaat lately? When did the forgotten become extinct?

@TheBlackLeech – I don’t think they are evil because they opposed the player in GW1. I think they are evil because they sacrificed innocents to further their goals. They used lies and deception to obtain these innocents. They aren’t nice folks.

If the enemy of my enemy is my friend, then why did the mursaat go to war against the seers? What can we expect them to do once the dragon menace is gone?

DarcShriek.5829:

@TheBlackLeech – I don’t think they are evil because they opposed the player in GW1. I think they are evil because they sacrificed innocents to further their goals. They used lies and deception to obtain these innocents. They aren’t nice folks.

If they didn’t, the Titans would have ran out and we are all gonna die.

Rather than blame the Mursaat or others, shouldn’t Glint take the major blame?

It was her prophecy which let the Mursaat to kill the Chosen, it was her prophecy which let Vizier Khilbron know what to do to control the Titans. She knew what was going on but chose to keep the mystery until the end, she was manipulating others to fulfill her destiny.

Slowpokeking.8720:

DarcShriek.5829:

@TheBlackLeech – I don’t think they are evil because they opposed the player in GW1. I think they are evil because they sacrificed innocents to further their goals. They used lies and deception to obtain these innocents. They aren’t nice folks.

If they didn’t, the Titans would have ran out and we are all gonna die.

It’s never good to lie, deceive and kill innocents. It’s always evil.

Glint didn’t sacrifice innocents. Mursaat did.

DarcShriek.5829:

It’s never good to lie, deceive and kill innocents. It’s always evil.

Glint didn’t sacrifice innocents. Mursaat did.

Then they should let the Titans run wild and kill everything, leave a door of Realm of Torment open?

Glint didn’t sacrifice innocents directly, but she manipulated others to do so.

narwhalsbend.7059:

Windsagio.1340:

dwarves and forgotten are both essentially extinct though.

At the very least, Ogden is “alive”. It can be assumed that other dwarves are “alive” as well since the surface of Tyria is not totally swarming with destroyers.

The Forgotten haven’t been seen, but that doesn’t mean they’re gone. They’re called “Forgotten” for a reason.

I thought the forgotten were described as being in the process of annhiliation. It’s been a while ><

About the dwarves, Ogden’s around yeah, but all their libraries and everything are gone.

Slowpokeking.8720:

DarcShriek.5829:

It’s never good to lie, deceive and kill innocents. It’s always evil.

Glint didn’t sacrifice innocents. Mursaat did.

Then they should let the Titans run wild and kill everything, leave a door of Realm of Torment open?

Glint didn’t sacrifice innocents directly, but she manipulated others to do so.

It was fuel that also very conveniently destroyed people they viewed as a threat. How handy is that?!

First of all I really dont know much about the first game’s lore. But these celestial beings (or Air Magic Elementals) maybe have relation with Aspect Masters (Master of Sun, Wind and Lightning) and could be the source of Aspects. Because we know that Glint hid something that probably help us to solve Mordremoth and Slyvari problem and we know Zephyrites are the continuation of the Brotherhood that had connections with Glint. So probably they are the key beings to destroy Mordremoth that Glint left for us.

Please correct me If I am wrong. Here are the links that maybe useful to understand my point of view.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zephyrites
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aspect

Edit: One more thing. I think these creatures gonna provide power that equal to aspect crystals(Mastery system’s explore line). Because we know that new maps gonna have big vertical designs. So we will be use these power to explore and travel(like we did on dry top).

Windsagio.1340:

It was fuel that also very conveniently destroyed people they viewed as a threat. How handy is that?!

I won’t call that nice, but it didn’t really cause more death. And remember, they saved all people of Kryta, then killed a few to power the seal.

What do you think of Glint? She KNEW what’s going to happen, but still gave out the prophecy to let Mursaat carry out their plan, to let the Lich Lord control Titans, she KNEW what was behind the door but still let you open it, which resulted many people’s death since many Titans went through the portal.

Slowpokeking.8720:

DarcShriek.5829:

It’s never good to lie, deceive and kill innocents. It’s always evil.

Glint didn’t sacrifice innocents. Mursaat did.

Then they should let the Titans run wild and kill everything, leave a door of Realm of Torment open?

Glint didn’t sacrifice innocents directly, but she manipulated others to do so.

If I remember correctly, the door was opened, the titans came, and the world didn’t end. It’s been 250 years, since any chosen were sacrificed and the world is still here. The sacrifices served no purpose.

Also, if the cause was so honorable, why didn’t they just ask for volunteers. Arlington National cemetery is filled with people that sacrificed themselves voluntarily. These people were given no choice, they were lied to and their lives were needlessly stolen from them. The mursaat are beyond evil and can’t be trusted.

Windsagio.1340:

Not only do they have the primary features of mursaat (floating slightly off the ground, featherlike back thingies), they’re also meguuma which is the main region we experience the mursaat.

This is exactly like all the ‘loremasters’ absolutely convincing themselves that there was no conceivable way the sylvari could be freed dragon minions.

Yes, it’s exactly like that, including the fanatical supporters of the “obvious” theory strawmanning a position which can be summed up as “the evidence is not as strong as you think it is, consider the other possibilities”.

One of my first lines there is that it could very well be a redesign of the mursaat. But the veterans among us remember a time when everybody jumped to a conclusion about the mursaat that seemed very convincing at the time… and was horribly, horribly wrong.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Are you still arguing that Kryta could defend themselves from the Charr when their king already ran away?

The Charr already defeated Orr without any cauldron, even without Cataclysm, Orr would have been wiped out. How is Kryta haveing any chances? We saw even with Saul’s effort, they are still no match for the Charr if the Mursaat hadn’t shown up.

So? All the king running away meant was that they needed someone to rally their armies. Saul did that, with no evidence of direct help from the mursaat apart from dressing him in fine enough clothes to convince Krytans to follow him and that final mission.

All it took was someone to step into the place the king had abandoned, rally the Krytan defenses, and fight back. If it wasn’t Saul, odds are someone else would have taken up the mantle. There would have been more damage done, but I think Kryta would have survived.

To put things in context – GW2 has made it explicitly clear that the charr brought cauldrons to Orr. That’s what brought the Orrian armies out to fight them on the field, rather than fighting from the fortifications, and even after the army’s defeat, the Orrians shown in the Cathedral of Silence PS instance were more afraid of a Searing than that Orr’s fortifications would fall to conventional assault.

And that was with the bulk of the charr army having gone to Orr – the reason why Ascalon survived as long as it did was that the army went on to Orr rather than sticking around to mop up. We don’t know how large the charr army in Kryta was… but it was probably much smaller than the armies that hit their primary objectives. And, like I said, there’s no evidence that the army that went to Kryta had Searing capability.

Saul’s small force was no match for the portion of the charr army that was encamped near their leadership there, but Saul’s group did not represent even close to the entirety of Kryta’s potential armed forces.

DarcShriek.5829:

If I remember correctly, the door was opened, the titans came, and the world didn’t end. It’s been 250 years, since any chosen were sacrificed and the world is still here. The sacrifices served no purpose.

Also, if the cause was so honorable, why didn’t they just ask for volunteers. Arlington National cemetery is filled with people that sacrificed themselves voluntarily. These people were given no choice, they were lied to and their lives were needlessly stolen from them. The mursaat are beyond evil and can’t be trusted.

Because we had it closed fast enough, even though

“The Foundry of Failed Creation is not merely a prison camp. It also acts as a staging area for an attack on the mortal plane. The Fury and his minions await the opening of the Door of Komalie, a gateway that leads from here into Tyria. Some years ago a powerful lich…another powerful minion of Abaddon…opened a gateway. It only remained open a brief time, but countless souls were sent through to become titans. Fortunately, for reasons unknown to me, the Door of Komalie was closed almost immediately.”

Why would people listen to some “aliens” to have them directly killed?

Also remember, Glint was behind the prophecy, without it the Mursaat and the Lich wouldn’t have done such thing.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

….Well… I’m pretty sure the bonus mission pack glosses over quite a few things.

Think about what you are saying and what happens in the bonus mission.

You are defending your people….. then only in text at the very end do you read:

“The Unseen Ones killed all but their most devoted worshippers.”

Saul is the reason the White Mantle even exist, and he if anyone would be their most devoted follower.

Why would they kill him for defending his people?

First, we don’t know that the killed him. They just ‘disappeared’ him.

More importantly… the mission tells us. After the mursaat killed most of his squad, Saul realised that the mursaat were actually monsters. The mursaat sensed this realisation that meant that Saul would no longer serve their purposes, but they couldn’t claim that he wasn’t worthy after having previously made him their chosen, so they teleported him away instead.

draxynnic.3719:

So? All the king running away meant was that they needed someone to rally their armies. Saul did that, with no evidence of direct help from the mursaat apart from dressing him in fine enough clothes to convince Krytans to follow him and that final mission.

All it took was someone to step into the place the king had abandoned, rally the Krytan defenses, and fight back. If it wasn’t Saul, odds are someone else would have taken up the mantle. There would have been more damage done, but I think Kryta would have survived.

And that was with the bulk of the charr army having gone to Orr – the reason why Ascalon survived as long as it did was that the army went on to Orr rather than sticking around to mop up. We don’t know how large the charr army in Kryta was… but it was probably much smaller than the armies that hit their primary objectives. And, like I said, there’s no evidence that the army that went to Kryta had Searing capability.

Saul’s small force was no match for the portion of the charr army that was encamped near their leadership there, but Saul’s group did not represent even close to the entirety of Kryta’s potential armed forces.

“The Unseen Ones were radiant beings: tall, thin, and winged, both superior and kind to man. They healed Saul in body and soul, giving him wisdom and understanding. Saul returned to Kryta reborn, a messenger of hope. "

This was the change, before that he would never have such ability to rally the people.

As for “entire army force” From the game manual:

Beaten, outnumbered, leaderless, and facing almost
certain death, the people of Kryta looked to Saul to
lead them out of their darkest hour.

The people of Kryta were facing “certain death” before Saul had shown up.

“As Ascalon burned, the Charr invaded the nation of Kryta. Their army marched through the Far Shiverpeaks and fell upon Kryta like lions upon a kill. Already weakened and divided, the Krytans were easy prey.”

" Abandoned by their leaders, betrayed by their countrymen, hungry and worn, the people of Kryta flocked to Saul’s banner and rallied to his cause.
Saul and his followers saved desperate and defenseless Krytans from the Charr, but there were too many invaders, and Saul’s disciples were too few.
Hope remained, but it was hope that required an ultimate sacrifice. "

I’m sorry but the canon info doesn’t match with your guess. Kryta was hopeless before Saul showed up.

draxynnic.3719:

First, we don’t know that the killed him. They just ‘disappeared’ him.

More importantly… the mission tells us. After the mursaat killed most of his squad, Saul realised that the mursaat were actually monsters. The mursaat sensed this realisation that meant that Saul would no longer serve their purposes, but they couldn’t claim that he wasn’t worthy after having previously made him their chosen, so they teleported him away instead.

Saul asked them for help and made it clear

Saul D’Alessio: “Friends, the time of retribution is at hand. We must pray to our gods. They will decide whether we live or die.”

Slowpokeking.8720:

Windsagio.1340:

It was fuel that also very conveniently destroyed people they viewed as a threat. How handy is that?!

I won’t call that nice, but it didn’t really cause more death. And remember, they saved all people of Kryta, then killed a few to power the seal.

What do you think of Glint? She KNEW what’s going to happen, but still gave out the prophecy to let Mursaat carry out their plan, to let the Lich Lord control Titans, she KNEW what was behind the door but still let you open it, which resulted many people’s death since many Titans went through the portal.

Glint, even with her telepathy stuff, probably didn’t think of individual mortals as very important. What she did doesn’t look great as you present it, but we have other information that sets her as selfless and long-seeing. All available information depicts the Mursaat as explicitly selfish and untrustworthy.

Hell, maybe she should take a lot of the blame. It doesn’t change the fact that the Mursaat specifically killed people who were potential threats under false pretenses to keep another threat to them out of the world. They’re good at setting up win-win scenarios, I admit.

draxynnic.3719:

Windsagio.1340:

Not only do they have the primary features of mursaat (floating slightly off the ground, featherlike back thingies), they’re also meguuma which is the main region we experience the mursaat.

This is exactly like all the ‘loremasters’ absolutely convincing themselves that there was no conceivable way the sylvari could be freed dragon minions.

Yes, it’s exactly like that, including everyone else strawmanning a position which can be summed up as “the evidence is not as strong as you think it is, consider the other possibilities”.

One of my first lines there is that it could very well be a redesign of the mursaat. But the veterans among us remember a time when everybody jumped to a conclusion about the mursaat that seemed very convincing at the time… and was horribly, horribly wrong.

Do explain, I’m curious :p

Seriously though, this is some serious occam’s razor stuff.

Windsagio.1340:

Glint, even with her telepathy stuff, probably didn’t think of individual mortals as very important. What she did doesn’t look great as you present it, but we have other information that sets her as selfless and long-seeing. All available information depicts the Mursaat as explicitly selfish and untrustworthy.

Hell, maybe she should take a lot of the blame. It doesn’t change the fact that the Mursaat specifically killed people who were potential threats under false pretenses to keep another threat to them out of the world. They’re good at setting up win-win scenarios, I admit.

I don’t think it’s nice, but it doesn’t make them THAT worse, not worse than the Charr.

Slowpokeking.8720:

draxynnic.3719:

First, we don’t know that the killed him. They just ‘disappeared’ him.

More importantly… the mission tells us. After the mursaat killed most of his squad, Saul realised that the mursaat were actually monsters. The mursaat sensed this realisation that meant that Saul would no longer serve their purposes, but they couldn’t claim that he wasn’t worthy after having previously made him their chosen, so they teleported him away instead.

Saul asked them for help and made it clear

Saul D’Alessio: “Friends, the time of retribution is at hand. We must pray to our gods. They will decide whether we live or die.”

Considering what is stated later, I’m pretty sure that what Saul meant was that the Unseen would decide whether they live or die by choosing whether to intervene or not… rather than intervening and then killing half the group themselves.

Regarding the Krytan leadership thing: The point I’m making is that all Kryta needed was a strong leader to step up. With some cosmetic assistance from the Mursaat, Saul became that leader. However, if Saul hadn’t stepped up, it’s likely that someone else would have – Evennia, say, or one of the Lionguard commanders, or any one of a number of characters who potentially have the authority and/or charisma to do so in the king’s absence..

Slowpokeking.8720:

Windsagio.1340:

Glint, even with her telepathy stuff, probably didn’t think of individual mortals as very important. What she did doesn’t look great as you present it, but we have other information that sets her as selfless and long-seeing. All available information depicts the Mursaat as explicitly selfish and untrustworthy.

Hell, maybe she should take a lot of the blame. It doesn’t change the fact that the Mursaat specifically killed people who were potential threats under false pretenses to keep another threat to them out of the world. They’re good at setting up win-win scenarios, I admit.

I don’t think it’s nice, but it doesn’t make them THAT worse, not worse than the Charr.

Genocidal war is probably legitimately worse than treacherous ‘death by 1000 cuts’, but the Charr at least come off as more trustworthy. The charr might try to kill you, but they probably won’t talk about how they’re helping keep you safe while poisoning your wine.

draxynnic.3719:

Considering what is stated later, I’m pretty sure that what Saul meant was that the Unseen would decide whether they live or die by choosing whether to intervene or not… rather than intervening and then killing half the group themselves.

Regarding the Krytan leadership thing: The point I’m making is that all Kryta needed was a strong leader to step up. With some cosmetic assistance from the Mursaat, Saul became that leader. However, if Saul hadn’t stepped up, it’s likely that someone else would have – Evennia, say, or one of the Lionguard commanders, or any one of a number of characters who potentially have the authority and/or charisma to do so in the king’s absence..

So not to intervene and let them all die, is better than save some and kill the rest? The Optimus Mursaat also stated this right after they showed up and Saul answered “Yes my lord.”

No, they were clearly stated as: Weakened, Divided, Beaten, Outnumbered before Saul had come in. They didn’t have enough troops, nor were they strong enough to fight the Charr. It has been stated very clearly, no, there was no hope, even Saul would have failed if the Mursaat hadn’t helped.

Windsagio.1340:

Genocidal war is probably legitimately worse than treacherous ‘death by 1000 cuts’, but the Charr at least come off as more trustworthy. The charr might try to kill you, but they probably won’t talk about how they’re helping keep you safe while poisoning your wine.

Why should we trust butchers? Just because we share a powerful common enemy? Then it is the same with Mursaat.

Also, don’t judge a whole race as the same, we know humans and humans could be very different, same with Charr and Mursaat. The Charr even has a whole legion made of spies and assassins, you really believe these individuals won’t lie to you when they want to kill you? That’s funny.

Slowpokeking.8720:

So not to intervene and let them all die, is better than save some and kill the rest? The Optimus Mursaat also stated this right after they showed up and Saul answered “Yes my lord.”

The question you have to answer is: Once the mursaat had chosen to intervene, why did ANY of them have to die?

The given explanation is that “they were not worthy of seeing us” – however, I would regard a being that would kill an ally simply for the “crime” of beholding them as Evil, unless they have a very good reason for wanting to maintain secrecy… and I don’t see that being the case here. The mursaat were quite happy to take the credit afterwards, so it’s not that they were trying to hide their involvement.

If you talk to the squad members beforehand, too, you’ll get the sense that it’s the ones that got killed at the end that genuinely care about Kryta. Saul probably has a much better understanding of the personality of his followers – part of his shock was probably not just that the mursaat decided that some of them were unworthy, but that the ones they deemed as unworthy were actually the most virtuous – and thus, their criteria for worthiness was not what Saul had believed it to be.

draxynnic.3719:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

….Well… I’m pretty sure the bonus mission pack glosses over quite a few things.

Think about what you are saying and what happens in the bonus mission.

You are defending your people….. then only in text at the very end do you read:

“The Unseen Ones killed all but their most devoted worshippers.”

Saul is the reason the White Mantle even exist, and he if anyone would be their most devoted follower.

Why would they kill him for defending his people?

First, we don’t know that the killed him. They just ‘disappeared’ him.

More importantly… the mission tells us. After the mursaat killed most of his squad, Saul realised that the mursaat were actually monsters. The mursaat sensed this realisation that meant that Saul would no longer serve their purposes, but they couldn’t claim that he wasn’t worthy after having previously made him their chosen, so they teleported him away instead.

Okay…. so to our knowledge they didn’t kill him….. what does that have to do with your claims?

The Rise of the White Mantle Bonus Pack Mission is still not the tale of Saul’s final battle with the Charr.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Windsagio.1340:

Genocidal war is probably legitimately worse than treacherous ‘death by 1000 cuts’, but the Charr at least come off as more trustworthy. The charr might try to kill you, but they probably won’t talk about how they’re helping keep you safe while poisoning your wine.

Why should we trust butchers? Just because we share a powerful common enemy? Then it is the same with Mursaat.

Also, don’t judge a whole race as the same, we know humans and humans could be very different, same with Charr and Mursaat. The Charr even has a whole legion made of spies and assassins, you really believe these individuals won’t lie to you when they want to kill you? That’s funny.

Hey, I think they’ll make interesting allies. Just don’t pretend they’re anything but terribly dark, selfish beings.

It is. That’s the battle where the White Mantle later claimed that Saul was killed by the Charr.

And what it has to do with my claim is that the Mursaat didn’t punish Saul for going on the offensive against their wishes, as you claimed. They took Saul because they noticed that Saul had realised they weren’t as virtuous as he had thought they were.

What if mursaat was going to be a playable race?! I would make a Mursaat Revenant, and break my all asuran characters.

draxynnic.3719:

It is. That’s the battle where the White Mantle later claimed that Saul was killed by the Charr.

And what it has to do with my claim is that the Mursaat didn’t punish Saul for going on the offensive against their wishes, as you claimed. They took Saul because they noticed that Saul had realised they weren’t as virtuous as he had thought they were.

He was definitely on an offensive against the Charr…. deep in their territory attempting to assassinate some of the leaders… not defending people, lol.

The story states that the coverup event described how “Saul was killed by Charr during the Mantle’s retreat back through the Shiverpeak Mountains” while returning to Kryta.

Why would they be retreating through the shiverpeak mountains if they were still in Kryta?

Either way the “Rise of the White Mantle” event took place much earlier, and the Charr had already backed off at that point, otherwise it would not make any sense to tell Krytans the tale of how he was slain in the Shiverpeaks, when they could have simply stated that hew was slain while defending his people.

I think we may have just found out a bit more about the mursaat

the reason they look so different is …
fashion
you didnt know this but fashion is the biggest part of mursaat culture(even bigger than magic) no one would be caught dead in those old rags from guild wars 1 that would be almost worse than being extinct to the mursaat.
they have even combined magic and fashion to make there bodys to glow allowing their inner fashioniesta to shine.
this also explains why they are different colours (everyone has a colour that compliments them)
you see rytlock found the mursaat and they took pity on him becuase of his ugly clothes so they gave him a brand new set of fashionable armour.
all the while mord is really upset cause way back when the elder dragons rose last time the mursaat dissed his clothes soooo bad that he swore hed never forgive them but then they disappeared. but now hes found them again and this time hes going to show them how pretty his flowers can be…
forcefully!

pretty much explains the whole idea of the expansion

Slowpokeking.8720:

DarcShriek.5829:

If I remember correctly, the door was opened, the titans came, and the world didn’t end. It’s been 250 years, since any chosen were sacrificed and the world is still here. The sacrifices served no purpose.

Also, if the cause was so honorable, why didn’t they just ask for volunteers. Arlington National cemetery is filled with people that sacrificed themselves voluntarily. These people were given no choice, they were lied to and their lives were needlessly stolen from them. The mursaat are beyond evil and can’t be trusted.

Because we had it closed fast enough, even though

“The Foundry of Failed Creation is not merely a prison camp. It also acts as a staging area for an attack on the mortal plane. The Fury and his minions await the opening of the Door of Komalie, a gateway that leads from here into Tyria. Some years ago a powerful lich…another powerful minion of Abaddon…opened a gateway. It only remained open a brief time, but countless souls were sent through to become titans. Fortunately, for reasons unknown to me, the Door of Komalie was closed almost immediately.”

Why would people listen to some “aliens” to have them directly killed?

Also remember, Glint was behind the prophecy, without it the Mursaat and the Lich wouldn’t have done such thing.

but since 250 no one killed people to power up souls batteries and that compared with fact that after khilbron there is nothing mentioning about anyone even trying to open that doors I think we can quite safely asssume that the doors of komalie di not required those souls batteries to keep being shut – mursaat could have keep their stronghold ontop of those doors to prevent any servant of abaddon to enter the are to oen the door but instead they still tried to trick with soul batteries… which was their doom.

Also I think it was quite literaly stated later in nightfall that lich was servant of abaddon… well abaddon wanted those doors opened no matter if some dragon servant made any prophecy about it or not.

Lord Trejgon.2809:

Slowpokeking.8720:

DarcShriek.5829:

If I remember correctly, the door was opened, the titans came, and the world didn’t end. It’s been 250 years, since any chosen were sacrificed and the world is still here. The sacrifices served no purpose.

Also, if the cause was so honorable, why didn’t they just ask for volunteers. Arlington National cemetery is filled with people that sacrificed themselves voluntarily. These people were given no choice, they were lied to and their lives were needlessly stolen from them. The mursaat are beyond evil and can’t be trusted.

Because we had it closed fast enough, even though

“The Foundry of Failed Creation is not merely a prison camp. It also acts as a staging area for an attack on the mortal plane. The Fury and his minions await the opening of the Door of Komalie, a gateway that leads from here into Tyria. Some years ago a powerful lich…another powerful minion of Abaddon…opened a gateway. It only remained open a brief time, but countless souls were sent through to become titans. Fortunately, for reasons unknown to me, the Door of Komalie was closed almost immediately.”

Why would people listen to some “aliens” to have them directly killed?

Also remember, Glint was behind the prophecy, without it the Mursaat and the Lich wouldn’t have done such thing.

but since 250 no one killed people to power up souls batteries and that compared with fact that after khilbron there is nothing mentioning about anyone even trying to open that doors I think we can quite safely asssume that the doors of komalie di not required those souls batteries to keep being shut – mursaat could have keep their stronghold ontop of those doors to prevent any servant of abaddon to enter the are to oen the door but instead they still tried to trick with soul batteries… which was their doom.

Also I think it was quite literaly stated later in nightfall that lich was servant of abaddon… well abaddon wanted those doors opened no matter if some dragon servant made any prophecy about it or not.

From the Hell’s Precipice Mission:
Undead Rurik: “Kill the Lich while he stands atop the Bloodstone inside the caldera.”
Undead Rurik: “If you do this, his spirit will recharge the soul batteries, and the Door will be closed again.”

After completing the mission….
Glint: “The Flameseeker Prophecies are now complete.”
Glint: “The Door of Komalie is closed, and the Titans are once again safely locked away behind it.”

I’m assuming the Lich Lord’s death upon the bloodstone was enough to seal it for quite some time….. long enough for Abbadon to cancel his plans with the Door of Komalie and flameseeker phophecies and change his focus to pushing his minions out into Elona.

The players then Travel to Elona and defeat Abbadon after entering the Realm of Torment.

Defeating Abbadon would dissolve any threat the Titans posed…. and by the same token, defeating the Titans (which the Charr revered as Gods) would dissolve Charr morale.

Abbadon → Titans → Charr vs White Mantle <-Mursaat <- ????

Think about that a bit…. freeing the Charr from their false gods after defeating Abbadon ended up starting the revolution that changed the Charr from enemies to Allies.

The Mursaat are on the good side of this battle…

On the soul batteries…

We’re actually not sure how important they were to keeping the door closed. Ingame, the door opens pretty much right after we destroy the last battery – but Khilbron is lurking nearby with the Scepter of Orr, so it’s possible that he could have readied a ritual to open the door as soon as the batteries were destroyed.

We know that the batteries at least prevent the door from being opened, and that recharging the batteries after the door has opened can close it again. However, we do not know if the door would naturally open on its own without the batteries or whether the batteries simply made it harder for someone to open it (to draw an analogy, were they the latch, or simply a lock?). Nor do we know if souls were the only means by which the battery could be charged, or whether that was simply the mursaat making practical use of people they were going to kill anyway.

These are important unknowns, which if the leading theory as to the identity of the glowing floaters is correct, we will hopefully have a chance to answer.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

draxynnic.3719:

It is. That’s the battle where the White Mantle later claimed that Saul was killed by the Charr.

And what it has to do with my claim is that the Mursaat didn’t punish Saul for going on the offensive against their wishes, as you claimed. They took Saul because they noticed that Saul had realised they weren’t as virtuous as he had thought they were.

He was definitely on an offensive against the Charr…. deep in their territory attempting to assassinate some of the leaders… not defending people, lol.

The story states that the coverup event described how “Saul was killed by Charr during the Mantle’s retreat back through the Shiverpeak Mountains” while returning to Kryta.

Why would they be retreating through the shiverpeak mountains if they were still in Kryta?

Either way the “Rise of the White Mantle” event took place much earlier, and the Charr had already backed off at that point, otherwise it would not make any sense to tell Krytans the tale of how he was slain in the Shiverpeaks, when they could have simply stated that hew was slain while defending his people.

Have you even played the mission?

The first step is defending a village. An established Krytan village, which is actually not far off the northern edge of the GW1 explorable Krytan region (the remains of the site can be found in southwestern Harathi Hinterlands). The charr leaders are accessible because they’ve camped within a distance of, at most, a few hours of Kryta’s northern border.

At the end, Saul is “disappeared” by the Mantle, never to be seen again, while the charr, their leadership broken, retreat back across the Shiverpeaks. The mission is the reality of the event that the coverup story you refer to was covering up.

“The Unseen Ones brought Saul a great victory.”
“But their aid came at a price.”
“The Unseen Ones killed all but their most devoted worshippers.”
“And Saul learned to his horror that these new gods were neither good nor kind.”
“The Unseen Ones took Saul with them to ensure his silence.”
“He was never seen alive again. But survivors spread the legend…”
“And Saul D’Alessio would always be remembered as a Champion of Kryta.”

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Rise_of_the_White_Mantle

Emphasis mine. This WAS Saul’s last battle. And it was, at most, less than a night’s sneak from a village that had been attacked earlier that same night, a village that was not more than the length of a zone north of Lion’s Arch.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Also remember, Glint was behind the prophecy, without it the Mursaat and the Lich wouldn’t have done such thing.

Call me a traditionalist, but prophesizing something does not equal setting something in motion. The Lich was already after the Scepter of Orr, who’s to say an army of undead wouldn’t have killed all the mursaat if he had gotten it at some point?

I find it incredibly short-sighted for such a powerful race to simply kill everyone who could be a potential threat because of some silly prophecy. Protecting the door of Komalie, sure understandable. Not explaining anything? That was pretty dumb.

draxynnic.3719:

On the soul batteries…

We’re actually not sure how important they were to keeping the door closed. Ingame, the door opens pretty much right after we destroy the last battery – but Khilbron is lurking nearby with the Scepter of Orr, so it’s possible that he could have readied a ritual to open the door as soon as the batteries were destroyed.

We know that the batteries at least prevent the door from being opened, and that recharging the batteries after the door has opened can close it again. However, we do not know if the door would naturally open on its own without the batteries or whether the batteries simply made it harder for someone to open it (to draw an analogy, were they the latch, or simply a lock?). Nor do we know if souls were the only means by which the battery could be charged, or whether that was simply the mursaat making practical use of people they were going to kill anyway.

These are important unknowns, which if the leading theory as to the identity of the glowing floaters is correct, we will hopefully have a chance to answer.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

draxynnic.3719:

It is. That’s the battle where the White Mantle later claimed that Saul was killed by the Charr.

And what it has to do with my claim is that the Mursaat didn’t punish Saul for going on the offensive against their wishes, as you claimed. They took Saul because they noticed that Saul had realised they weren’t as virtuous as he had thought they were.

He was definitely on an offensive against the Charr…. deep in their territory attempting to assassinate some of the leaders… not defending people, lol.

The story states that the coverup event described how “Saul was killed by Charr during the Mantle’s retreat back through the Shiverpeak Mountains” while returning to Kryta.

Why would they be retreating through the shiverpeak mountains if they were still in Kryta?

Either way the “Rise of the White Mantle” event took place much earlier, and the Charr had already backed off at that point, otherwise it would not make any sense to tell Krytans the tale of how he was slain in the Shiverpeaks, when they could have simply stated that hew was slain while defending his people.

Have you even played the mission?

The first step is defending a village. An established Krytan village, which is actually not far off the northern edge of the GW1 explorable Krytan region (the remains of the site can be found in southwestern Harathi Hinterlands). The charr leaders are accessible because they’ve camped within a distance of, at most, a few hours of Kryta’s northern border.

At the end, Saul is “disappeared” by the Mantle, never to be seen again, while the charr, their leadership broken, retreat back across the Shiverpeaks. The mission is the reality of the event that the coverup story you refer to was covering up.

“The Unseen Ones brought Saul a great victory.”
“But their aid came at a price.”
“The Unseen Ones killed all but their most devoted worshippers.”
“And Saul learned to his horror that these new gods were neither good nor kind.”
“The Unseen Ones took Saul with them to ensure his silence.”
“He was never seen alive again. But survivors spread the legend…”
“And Saul D’Alessio would always be remembered as a Champion of Kryta.”

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Rise_of_the_White_Mantle

Emphasis mine. This WAS Saul’s last battle. And it was, at most, less than a night’s sneak from a village that had been attacked earlier that same night, a village that was not more than the length of a zone north of Lion’s Arch.

It is clear that your knowledge of the lore only extends to what is delivered through game content, and not what is written in texts enriching the lore.

The text you are quoting describes events that occurred later.

…and the entire mission which you are going back to as a reference to your misinformation, as i said earlier is a simple gloss-over of factual lore.

The abridged version if you will.

Why are the radical redesigns necessary? I liked the Mursaat as they were, they were an iconic species. I’m so tired of Anet ruining their own work. First they retcon Kryta from tropical to a generic fantasy land, then a dozen or so more retcons and unneeded redesigns, now this…? Come on…