Guild Wars 2

People do Aetherpath – signicantly less due to buggy cutscenes / pug-busting mechanics of escorting oozes.

In terms of repeat ability dungeons offern more hours of repeat ability than mapping or living story. Problem is with mapping and living story once you Have done it that’s it.
The same will become of the hot maps- completed it and mastered (which is just a time gate) then unlikely to do it again …then back to dungeons.

Loex.5104:

Lifestealer.4910:

Loex.5104:

GW2 delivers fun .. not grinding

Not sure if being sarcastic or not..

Nope i’m not sarcastic.
The OP made the point -> the WHOLE content of nearly any other MMO is nothing but grind to gain access to new content which is grind again

ZudetGambeous.9573:

These dungeons are generally what keep people playing the content as they search for new gear and master the encounters…

- i would like to add that you have to do the same things again with every alt you create

GW2 offers you optional stuff to hold you in the game that you don’t have to do if you don’t want it.
It is confirmed that there will be challanging content and we know nothing about it atm but we can be sure that it won’t be like the other MMOs. So the comparison the OP did is not useful and the OP shouldn’t expect something like he mentioned .

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Is there an equivalent in HoT? What will keep us playing after we finish the story 2-3 weeks in?
I just haven’t seen any info on this, i’m sure it is somewhere, but I can’t find it.

There won’t be any Dungeon-gergrind-treadmill. Im Sure we’ll get dungeons but they won’t do the main part of holding us in the game – gw2 never worked that way.
in PVE it will be mostly focused on Masteries (jeez there can be so many possibilities) / Collections (like the Silverwastes one for the Carapace gear) / Precursor-Hunting and of course dynamic events with new chains and bosses (like Vinewrath or the wyvern). Also the challenges could play a bigger role.

So it will definitively not be like other MMOs – the biggest comparison we could do should be the Silverwastes as the Devs mentioned that Orr once was planned like SW in much bigger scale with bigger impact for the map and the map-mechanics.

wow you really bought their hype hook line and sinker…

You go on and on about how GW2 does not have grind then proceed to list:

luminescent armor (have to grind the same content 40-50 times to finish collection)
masteries (must grind to get ALL of them to complete the content, they are not optional)
precursors (must grind 1000g by running 500+ dungeons)
Vinewrath (currently farmed continuously in full grind mode)

Those are all far worse grinds than anything offered in WoW… in WoW you need to do a dungeon 3-5 times to get the gear you need, then you can do another dungeon… in GW2 you need to do a dungeon 30+ times to get a full gear set. GW2 is significantly more grindy than other MMO’s, I want it to be LESS grindy by offering dungeons like in other MMOs.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Loex.5104:

Lifestealer.4910:

Loex.5104:

GW2 delivers fun .. not grinding

Not sure if being sarcastic or not..

Nope i’m not sarcastic.
The OP made the point -> the WHOLE content of nearly any other MMO is nothing but grind to gain access to new content which is grind again

ZudetGambeous.9573:

These dungeons are generally what keep people playing the content as they search for new gear and master the encounters…

- i would like to add that you have to do the same things again with every alt you create

GW2 offers you optional stuff to hold you in the game that you don’t have to do if you don’t want it.
It is confirmed that there will be challanging content and we know nothing about it atm but we can be sure that it won’t be like the other MMOs. So the comparison the OP did is not useful and the OP shouldn’t expect something like he mentioned .

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Is there an equivalent in HoT? What will keep us playing after we finish the story 2-3 weeks in?
I just haven’t seen any info on this, i’m sure it is somewhere, but I can’t find it.

There won’t be any Dungeon-gergrind-treadmill. Im Sure we’ll get dungeons but they won’t do the main part of holding us in the game – gw2 never worked that way.
in PVE it will be mostly focused on Masteries (jeez there can be so many possibilities) / Collections (like the Silverwastes one for the Carapace gear) / Precursor-Hunting and of course dynamic events with new chains and bosses (like Vinewrath or the wyvern). Also the challenges could play a bigger role.

So it will definitively not be like other MMOs – the biggest comparison we could do should be the Silverwastes as the Devs mentioned that Orr once was planned like SW in much bigger scale with bigger impact for the map and the map-mechanics.

wow you really bought their hype hook line and sinker…

You go on and on about how GW2 does not have grind then proceed to list:

luminescent armor (have to grind the same content 40-50 times to finish collection)
masteries (must grind to get ALL of them to complete the content, they are not optional)
precursors (must grind 1000g by running 500+ dungeons)
Vinewrath (currently farmed continuously in full grind mode)

Those are all far worse grinds than anything offered in WoW… in WoW you need to do a dungeon 3-5 times to get the gear you need, then you can do another dungeon… in GW2 you need to do a dungeon 30+ times to get a full gear set. GW2 is significantly more grindy than other MMO’s, I want it to be LESS grindy by offering dungeons like in other MMOs.

Keg filled with beer for this human beeing.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

in GW2 you need to do a dungeon 30+ times to get a full gear set.

23 times at the 60 tokens per run, unless you’re including weapons in your calculation. If you’re including weapons yes, upwards of 38 runs, depending on weapon combinations in question.

However, given that there are alternative options to obtaining gear, and that dungeons were never intended to be the primary way for a person to gear up necessarily, comparing WoW’s dungeons to GW2 dungeons is comparing apples to oranges.

Additionally, WoW’s dungeons, you run one 5, 6, 7 times for one piece of necessary armor. Then you progress to the next dungeon to repeat for another single piece of armor. The number of runs is pretty close between the two games if you take the total number of runs into consideration.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

wow you really bought their hype hook line and sinker…

You go on and on about how GW2 does not have grind then proceed to list:

luminescent armor (have to grind the same content 40-50 times to finish collection)
masteries (must grind to get ALL of them to complete the content, they are not optional)
precursors (must grind 1000g by running 500+ dungeons)
Vinewrath (currently farmed continuously in full grind mode)

Those are all far worse grinds than anything offered in WoW… in WoW you need to do a dungeon 3-5 times to get the gear you need, then you can do another dungeon… in GW2 you need to do a dungeon 30+ times to get a full gear set. GW2 is significantly more grindy than other MMO’s, I want it to be LESS grindy by offering dungeons like in other MMOs.

Grind is not an objective term, it’s a subjective one. I don’t view gw2 as grind for two reasons.
1) Maximal gear is relatively easy to get, and once you have it there is nothing that you can’t do in the game. Even exotic allow you to have access to almost everything in the game. In some other game, you need to complete task A to get gear A. You need gear A to complete task B to get gear B. You need gear B to do task C to get gear C, etc, etc. In GW2 you do you gear once and you can never think about it again.

2) For most stuff, you have several way to reach your goal. I want a Legendary? I can farm the material, I can do dungeon, I can do Silverwaste, I can do PvP, I can play the TP, etc. Most stuff can be bought so you can do what you prefer, get the gold and buy what you need. I don’t have to farm Totem by Grawls in Frostgorge Sound or farming Charged Lodestone in Orr.

That’s how I feel about grind, other ppl feel differently and that’s ok.

rotten.9753:

aspirine.6852:

I doubt an expansion for gw2 without dungeons would sell really well. It would be a big mistake not include normal dungeons and a few elite ones.

You’re so wrong. Dungeons are a tiny portion of the vast world that is Tyria. Moreover, the dungeon community is very toxic, makes you wear zerk gear and forces you to stack. Developing new dungeons would just result in other content being underdeveloped. /s

Probably confusing toxic with just being lazy. If someone bothers to put a requirements on their lfg, they deserve to get what they requested. I recently helped lvl a friend thru dungeons and only requirement i had up was to aleast know the dungeon and it filled quickly with pros and casuals and no one demanding blah blah. The community is only toxic to those who force to be carried and plain out right ignore to read

Many.8419:

Hyper Cutter.9376:

zaw.6741:

and you know: just because most of current dungeons/paths are easy and bit boring (most 80- ones, jade maw), doesnt mean they couldnt make new ones with more complex mechanics, more challenging.

They literally did that, Aetherpath exists and no one touches it with a ten foot pole.

because rewards are abyssmal

Yah, because it’s fairly obvious that it’s the rewards that are the most important thing, not stated desires for complex mechanics or challenge.

Put the rewards there and the people will be there also. Put a challenge there and it will be deserted without a big enough carrot.

pandas.9450:

Probably confusing toxic with just being lazy. If someone bothers to put a requirements on their lfg, they deserve to get what they requested. I recently helped lvl a friend thru dungeons and only requirement i had up was to aleast know the dungeon and it filled quickly with pros and casuals and no one demanding blah blah. The community is only toxic to those who force to be carried and plain out right ignore to read

“/s” has a particular meaning.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Many.8419:

Hyper Cutter.9376:

zaw.6741:

and you know: just because most of current dungeons/paths are easy and bit boring (most 80- ones, jade maw), doesnt mean they couldnt make new ones with more complex mechanics, more challenging.

They literally did that, Aetherpath exists and no one touches it with a ten foot pole.

because rewards are abyssmal

Yah, because it’s fairly obvious that it’s the rewards that are the most important thing, not stated desires for complex mechanics or challenge.

Put the rewards there and the people will be there also. Put a challenge there and it will be deserted without a big enough carrot.

Challenge is a subjective term. Every of dungeons were a challenge long time ago. But after replaying the same content for almost 3 years we know how to do them. If rewards for AP were better you would see more ppl participating and doing it on daily basis. and with youtube and other forms of guides it is easy to learn the path even now.

Pugs will be pugs, some of them are incapable of taking reflects against elite shamans in cof p1 so yeah… it would be better if some ppl just stay in their champ/world boss trains.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Many.8419:

Hyper Cutter.9376:

zaw.6741:

and you know: just because most of current dungeons/paths are easy and bit boring (most 80- ones, jade maw), doesnt mean they couldnt make new ones with more complex mechanics, more challenging.

They literally did that, Aetherpath exists and no one touches it with a ten foot pole.

because rewards are abyssmal

Yah, because it’s fairly obvious that it’s the rewards that are the most important thing, not stated desires for complex mechanics or challenge.

Put the rewards there and the people will be there also. Put a challenge there and it will be deserted without a big enough carrot.

sorry but i think that challenge and reward should go together
harder content, better rewards. and since max stats we got are ascended, unique skins that could be aquired ONLY by playing the content, without rng involved (dreams, i know but…tokens worked in dungeons at launch)…
its anet casual favorizing hurting this game – they feel that for 1111 they should be rewarded same way that good players are for completing challenging content

aetherpath is broken cause of rng included. if it just had its own tokens for which you could buy the skins (convenience, not kitten luck!) that would be accbound on aquire, ppl would play that. noone (or minority) likes to play lottery/ sure there would be path sellers, but they are everywhere, even selling fotm runs

ZudetGambeous.9573:

wow you really bought their hype hook line and sinker…

You go on and on about how GW2 does not have grind then proceed to list:

luminescent armor (have to grind the same content 40-50 times to finish collection)
masteries (must grind to get ALL of them to complete the content, they are not optional)
precursors (must grind 1000g by running 500+ dungeons)
Vinewrath (currently farmed continuously in full grind mode)

Those are all far worse grinds than anything offered in WoW… in WoW you need to do a dungeon 3-5 times to get the gear you need, then you can do another dungeon… in GW2 you need to do a dungeon 30+ times to get a full gear set. GW2 is significantly more grindy than other MMO’s, I want it to be LESS grindy by offering dungeons like in other MMOs.

Its nice what you have listed there sadly i talked about forced grind that is required … now tell me WHO forces you to “grind” it?

Do you need it to participate in content that is locked before?
what content is locked at all? what can’t you do in the game without that grind you’re talking about?
are you unable to Beat Vinewrath without a legendary?
Do you need luminiscent armor to beat Tequatl or whatever?
Do you need that Arah-Gloves because you cant port to Drytop without?

i think the answer is obvious.

Now to your WoW Example (you started it)- the most content is locked behind some ugly stat-walls … you HAVE to farm dungeons in a specific order over and over just to gain access to the next tier of dungeons to farm over and over
… then start farming reputation to be able to buy access to Hardmode-Dungeons to farm new Gear to be able to enter the first raid to farm that again over weeks just because RNG and DKP wont give you new gear within >>!! 6 !!<< this number is totally impossible – runs just to gain access to the next Raid tier ….. blahblahblah and so on
I’ve Played WoW Vanilla → Cata and WoW is the holy mother of Grind

in GW2 you can do Every Dungeon you want to get Exo Gear .. you can craft it / get it as random loot or get it via PvP and even via WvW or just simply buy it. If you want THAT specific dungeon Skin than it is up to you if it’s worth doing it – Fractal random drops aside .. i hate random dropping stuff <.<

and now … While the Stuff you’ve done in GW2 is unlocked for your whole account forever and you dont have to do anything again … in WoW you have to start the same procedure again if you want to play an Alt
and than the next addon kicks in – raises the level cap – and makes all your stuff useless… AMAZING =D

And the Masteries? i don’t know where there should be a grind … you have to train it via XP so you can see it as level cap increase but without making your stuff you’ve worked before useless. so you just level further… but even that is account bound so that all your chars get the benefit of doing it >>1<< time.

you just have to do everything grindy ONE time … you have to forge ONE Leggy and can give it to every char … same with ascended Weapons/Gear and obviously skins / tonics / Masteries whatever and nothing of it is forced because nothing gives you more content

It has nothing to do with hype its about the freedom you have to do what you want … and to me it looks like you want everything in the game without repeating anything … so you’ll need 500 Dungeons and 12k different events and 100 different armor sets just to stay tuned for some weeks / months … you know thats not possible MMOs always worked the way that you have to repeat things to gain something but GW2 is different in the important point that you just have to do int once for your whole account

GW2 has grind … but you don’t have to do anything of it if the result is not worth enough to you and the WoW typical WoW Dungeon System won’t ever be in GW2 and thats the way it has to be.

We can talk about more and cooler Boss mechanics of course – thats sth GW2 really needs – but not about a gear-grind-treadmill where you’re forced to clear and farm dungeons just to gain access to ne next one.

Aetherpath is probably closest to what dungeons should be like but with that droprate… there was a time I used to do Aetherpath almost every day and I did not see even one of the unique end chest skins drop for anyone in the party let alone for me. The carrot is too high to reach and you lose interest. It’s like with the Fractal skins after Fractured patch. I saw them drop a lot less often and I lost interest even though I still want the axe and the mace.

Vayne.8563:

…
I’m guessing that only a small percentage of the playerbase regularly does dungeons. I sort of suspect that the living world wouldn’t be the living world if everyone were ignoring it and doing dungeons.

This is the part of this argument Dungeon runners do not want to admit. I’m not saying a mode of the game you love should be ignored, but resources should be put where a majority of players are playing.

Before asking Anet to commit resources to new Dungeons, how about we ALL ask them for some statistic on what percentage of the player base do Dungeons regularly (or EVER)? Prove to everyone that the resources would be well spent and I have no issue with the Devs spending them.

I think the fact that only a very few additions to Dungeons have happened since release gives a clear indication that the Dungeon regulars are a small percentage of the overall player base (say less than 10%….certainly less than 15%, but hey, I could be wrong).

I’m guessing Devs are reluctant to release actual numbers as there is enough division between the groups now and it would just fuel these forum spats more.

Brother Grimm.5176:

Vayne.8563:

…
I’m guessing that only a small percentage of the playerbase regularly does dungeons. I sort of suspect that the living world wouldn’t be the living world if everyone were ignoring it and doing dungeons.

This is the part of this argument Dungeon runners do not want to admit. I’m not saying a mode of the game you love should be ignored, but resources should be put where a majority of players are playing.

Before asking Anet to commit resources to new Dungeons, how about we ALL ask them for some statistic on what percentage of the player base do Dungeons regularly (or EVER)? Prove to everyone that the resources would be well spent and I have no issue with the Devs spending them.

I think the fact that only a very few additions to Dungeons have happened since release gives a clear indication that the Dungeon regulars are a small percentage of the overall player base (say less than 10%….certainly less than 15%, but hey, I could be wrong).

I’m guessing Devs are reluctant to release actual numbers as there is enough division between the groups now and it would just fuel these forum spats more.

whats the point of that stupid statement? did you even read yourself?
lots of players that ask for new dungeons dont even care about old ones, cause they ran each path of each dungeons tons of time and got bored
majority of players are playing content that is new. if we had new dungeons, people would play them. simple as that. and dont give aetherpath or fotm as example. they involve rng which is just a bad attempt at trying to keep ppl repeat content 73280572357209times

Players ask for stuff that they don’t actually want and wont’ actually use all the time.

The numbers are important because we lie (even to ourselves).

zaw.6741

whats the point of that stupid statement? did you even read yourself?
lots of players that ask for new dungeons dont even care about old ones, cause they ran each path of each dungeons tons of time and got bored
majority of players are playing content that is new. if we had new dungeons, people would play them. simple as that. and dont give aetherpath or fotm as example. they involve rng which is just a bad attempt at trying to keep ppl repeat content 73280572357209times

I found his statement legitimate. Just because you don’t doesn’t mean anything. You use “lots of players” and “majority”. Do you have the metrics? Care to share them with us? This thread would be over and done if you do. I share Brother Grimm’s opinion and said as much on the first, or second page of this thread. I wouldn’t play new dungeons. I am not interested in that type of content. I won’t pretend that I represent any percentage of the player base, but considering where Anets resources have gone since launch, I agree that it’s reasonable to postulate they will not be making new dungeons. “Simple as that”

munki.6402:

zaw.6741

whats the point of that stupid statement? did you even read yourself?
lots of players that ask for new dungeons dont even care about old ones, cause they ran each path of each dungeons tons of time and got bored
majority of players are playing content that is new. if we had new dungeons, people would play them. simple as that. and dont give aetherpath or fotm as example. they involve rng which is just a bad attempt at trying to keep ppl repeat content 73280572357209times

I found his statement legitimate. Just because you don’t doesn’t mean anything. You use “lots of players” and “majority”. Do you have the metrics? Care to share them with us? This thread would be over and done if you do. I share Brother Grimm’s opinion and said as much on the first, or second page of this thread. I wouldn’t play new dungeons. I am not interested in that type of content. I won’t pretend that I represent any percentage of the player base, but considering where Anets resources have gone since launch, I agree that it’s reasonable to postulate they will not be making new dungeons. “Simple as that”

dungeons/fractals got consumed and ppl that liked them and dont like open world / get bored of open world content quickly (like farming 1000s of badges / geodes is soooo much fun. repeating zerging events much is soo fun) left for other games that offer some challange for organized group of people / stopped playing / login only for dailies
all gw2 got lately was casual open world content.
i know, anet target are casual players but ‘challenging content’ (words that they use a lot in all the interviews..) and ‘open world content’ dont come together, at least there’s no such thing after 2,5 years (no, evolved wurm isnt hard, its just random ppl that got no clue what to do and dont listen to commander (or funnier – thanks to megaserver – dont even understand english) fail the thing)

Is my statement stupid because YOU BELIEVE 80% of the players would flock to a new Dungeon or because the numbers might just prove how small the “Dungeon Community” actually is and your delusion may be shattered?

I clearly stated that I could be wrong (but I think Anet’s record on Dungeon development means I’m not wrong). Neither of us will know for sure without some statistics (that I doubt Anet would be willing to make public).

The problem with adding new dungeons is that they are so quick to be compared to the original dungeons. The original dungeons are so laughably easy and fast to run that when they did add a new one there was a ton of crying about how hard/long it was.

Do not get me wrong, I really want new dungeons too but anet really shot themselves in the foot by never addressing any major dungeon issues (skipping exploits, major bugs, defiance, etc.).

They have set a really bad precedence with dungeons and now they are just gold farms instead of being an actual challenge.

Anet added a new dungeon path and I’m pretty sure most players have never beaten it. I’m talking about the Aetherblade path of course. Annecdotally, I have a guild that now has over 200 people, with over 100 people logging in every week. Less than twenty people in the guild run dungeons at all, let alone regularly. We have four groups of people who do dungeons. I do dungeons but I wouldn’t care if I ever did one again. It’s not my thing.

The problem with liking and focusing on something is you assume that most people will feel the same. It’s not true. It’s never been true.

A lotro dev talked about raids in Lotro when Lotro stopped supporting raiding.. He said only 10% of the population ever raided in Lotro, since the beginning. He also said that the same demographic accounts for 50% of the forum posts.

Also, how many people do dungeons to make money and nothing else. They don’t care about dungeons or challenges. They care about quick loot? Because if you give those same players a non-dungeon way to make loot, if it’s more efficient, they’re there. By leaving dungeons one of the more profitable things in the game, Anet has skewed dungeon numbers to be higher than they would be.

Vayne.8563:

Anet added a new dungeon path and I’m pretty sure most players have never beaten it. I’m talking about the Aetherblade path of course. Annecdotally, I have a guild that now has over 200 people, with over 100 people logging in every week. Less than twenty people in the guild run dungeons at all, let alone regularly. We have four groups of people who do dungeons. I do dungeons but I wouldn’t care if I ever did one again. It’s not my thing.

The problem with liking and focusing on something is you assume that most people will feel the same. It’s not true. It’s never been true.

A lotro dev talked about raids in Lotro when Lotro stopped supporting raiding.. He said only 10% of the population ever raided in Lotro, since the beginning. He also said that the same demographic accounts for 50% of the forum posts.

Also, how many people do dungeons to make money and nothing else. They don’t care about dungeons or challenges. They care about quick loot? Because if you give those same players a non-dungeon way to make loot, if it’s more efficient, they’re there. By leaving dungeons one of the more profitable things in the game, Anet has skewed dungeon numbers to be higher than they would be.

I have some buddies I do fractals with; occasionally the concept comes up of whether we should do some dungeon speedruns to make some $$$. It’s never about anything else though.

I like the idea of dungeons, and in fact I really enjoy doing dungeon runs with my guild, whenever I can catch them. I would love to see what ArenaNet could do with new dungeons in the Heart of Thorns expansion, with the new mob mechanics, profession specs, and Masteries in play to make them interesting.

I don’t think we’re going to see them, however, because the ‘dungeoneer’ crowd, as it’s referred to itself as in this thread, are more or less a bunch of hate-spewing rage-blinded gibbering barbarians who are completely, utterly, pathologically incapable of accepting that maybe someone out there might want to play the dungeon instead of speedrun it in 3:27 minutes, or might not have run the dungeon seven hundred and fifty-two times and thus know it inside and out, or worst of all might’ve commited the grave and unforgivable sin of not wearing Berserker gear.

The LFG/public dungeon community is unfortunately extremely toxic and kinda self-defeating, much like the old Hero’s Ascent community was – if you’re not already a part of it you can never really be a part of it because it’s incredibly unforgiving of rookies or more casual players who think it’s totally fine to spend half an hour doing one path, and this whole exclusionary attitude and the very standoffish way they present themselves in threads like this only exacerbates the issue.

I honestly consider dungeon-style content to be my favorite type of content in GW2. I love exploring these things with a small group of friends having fun on Mumble, and I would squeal with schoolgirlish glee if we ever got a GW2 equivalent of the old Underworld/Fissure of Woe/Domain of Anguish high-level zones back. I like instanced content and while I’m cool with open-world stuff, I rarely find it to be as interesting as the same content designed for small instances could’ve been.

Unfortunately ArneaNet disagrees with me, and the dungeon community has chosen to take after the old Hero’s Ascent crowd rather than being the Friendliest, Most Welcoming Community in Online Gaming™. It’s honestly really sad…if you guys had made dungeons more accessible to folks, we might’ve gotten one or two new ones in Heart of Thorns.

Oh well, c’est la vie. Maybe they’ll introduce dungeon-like content later in LSS3.

and still arguments about ppl not running 2,5 years old dungeons anymore for nothing except money

if sw/dt had 2,5 years and instanced content (for now we got dungeons / fotm) was new, players would play it.

things about dungeons for many ppl is play how you want idea
ive got time, i call 4 guildies/friends/randoms and play it. everyone is important in that team, and if key member (liek guardian) dont time skills right, its fail. you msut be focused.
open world on the other hand:
- timers. world bosses. what if on 1 kill im asleep/at work, 2nd i want to spend time with my family, and 3rd i must go to sleep to wake up to work next day? dungeons dont have they problem – play whenever you want
- depending on huge pool of random players. you jump in sw/dt. even if there are players, they dont have to push map progression. you must either somehow make them do it (which isnt easy) or find instance when they want to do it. again, if you cant play in peak time, you’re screwed with empty maps / afkers. for current instanced content you need but 4 others, not 50 or 100 and you can actually decide who you play with.

and yet again. players that ask for even tiny bit of dungeons – we dont say anet should stop developing open world FOR YOU. they do and they will. why are all of you so much AGAINST instanced content, that can be played anytime you want, without timers and luck required to get in the right instance

its not that we necessarily need DUNGEONS. we want content that force you to stay focused and actually require more than just spamm one in your pvt gear following tag, can be played when we want, not when timer tells us. and rewards adequately, not with 0,00001% rng chance for skin (fotm / aether path).

Zaw, the essential flaw in your argument is that they pretty clearly quit making dungeons due to participation issues. If they thought it was just lack of new content they likely would have done the opposite :p

and ill keep on saying that the older content gets, the lower interest in it…
would you rather watch 100th time a great 10/10 movie, or prefer 1st time some good 8/10 one?
if so few players were interested in this kind of content, why are there so many topics about dungs/fotm on the forum? ppl asking for tweaks/improvements/new content?

Windsagio.1340:

I have some buddies I do fractals with; occasionally the concept comes up of whether we should do some dungeon speedruns to make some $$$. It’s never about anything else though.

Because people play silverwastes for fun.

Windsagio.1340:

Zaw, the essential flaw in your argument is that they pretty clearly quit making dungeons due to participation issues. If they thought it was just lack of new content they likely would have done the opposite :p

Do you have any metrics? PvP is dead yet they constantly shove esports down our throats.

Vayne.8563:

A lotro dev talked about raids in Lotro when Lotro stopped supporting raiding.. He said only 10% of the population ever raided in Lotro, since the beginning. He also said that the same demographic accounts for 50% of the forum posts.

Raids aren’t even close to dungeons. There’s no organization needed to complete almost any dungeon in this game (except aetherpath, this in conjunction with rng rewards and its length is most likely the reason of its failure) and you only need 4 more people.

Way too many people trying to argue over the meaning of very specific words in here. Stop trying to make up new existential ways to use words like ‘content’.

Way too many people trying to pretend they know %s of people that do different activities in this game. Surprise surprise!, I’m guessing we all think more %s of people do what we like because of the friends/guilds we’re in?

Dungeons have been very much left in the dust since launch. Thats just a fact. To keep in line with what this thread is about, they have not mentioned new dungeons. In every interview we’ve seen they appear to avoid talking about grouped content at all; its very dodgy.

I think once the dungeon playerbase (lost playerbase, current, or new) knows there will be no new dungeons (if that ends up being the case), it will hurt them in some way. I also hope whatever they have in mind for their replacement isnt some goofy experiment.

Try to focus on the OP guys and keep this topic alive in a meaningful way if you care about it.

zaw.6741:

and ill keep on saying that the older content gets, the lower interest in it…
would you rather watch 100th time a great 10/10 movie, or prefer 1st time some good 8/10 one?
if so few players were interested in this kind of content, why are there so many topics about dungs/fotm on the forum? ppl asking for tweaks/improvements/new content?

If people played the dungeons a lot originally and stopped, Anet would have known people were into dungeons. Obviously they would know how many people ever did dungeons. I would.

What makes you think that Anet hasn’t thought about that, considering how obvious it is. The Lotro raiding quote I gave said that 10% of the playerbase raided from the game’s launch, not recently. It is entirely possible that raiders and dungeon runners are a small part of the percentage.

In fact, there might be more people soloing than running dungeons.

rotten.9753:

Vayne.8563:

A lotro dev talked about raids in Lotro when Lotro stopped supporting raiding.. He said only 10% of the population ever raided in Lotro, since the beginning. He also said that the same demographic accounts for 50% of the forum posts.

Raids aren’t even close to dungeons. There’s no organization needed to complete almost any dungeon in this game (except aetherpath, this in conjunction with rng rewards and its length is most likely the reason of its failure) and you only need 4 more people.

So why did Anet stop supporting them? What’s your theory?

Many.8419:

Hyper Cutter.9376:

zaw.6741:

and you know: just because most of current dungeons/paths are easy and bit boring (most 80- ones, jade maw), doesnt mean they couldnt make new ones with more complex mechanics, more challenging.

They literally did that, Aetherpath exists and no one touches it with a ten foot pole.

because rewards are abyssmal

But but but..is so fun _

Vayne.8563:

So why did Anet stop supporting them? What’s your theory?

I work in software development (much bigger company than anet) and management always make bizarre decision but if I had to guess it was simply a reorganization of their teams to support their biweekly updates plus the community reaction at aetherpath which isn’t popular because of its design.

Vayne.8563:

Raids aren’t even close to dungeons. There’s no organization needed to complete almost any dungeon in this game (except aetherpath, this in conjunction with rng rewards and its length is most likely the reason of its failure) and you only need 4 more people.

actually raids are nothing but dungeons with bosses where you have to use a special tactic to beat them (mostly with different phases where your group has to do different things → organisation) – that concept is 100% usable in normal 5 man group content (i think its harder for open world content but its possible).

I Think thats why ANet hired Raid and AI designers – not to implement raids as we know (10 – 25 or 40 man) but to implement interesting mechanics in all content-types

Vayne.8563:

Anet added a new dungeon path and I’m pretty sure most players have never beaten it. I’m talking about the Aetherblade path of course. Annecdotally, I have a guild that now has over 200 people, with over 100 people logging in every week. Less than twenty people in the guild run dungeons at all, let alone regularly. We have four groups of people who do dungeons. I do dungeons but I wouldn’t care if I ever did one again. It’s not my thing.

The problem with liking and focusing on something is you assume that most people will feel the same. It’s not true. It’s never been true.

A lotro dev talked about raids in Lotro when Lotro stopped supporting raiding.. He said only 10% of the population ever raided in Lotro, since the beginning. He also said that the same demographic accounts for 50% of the forum posts.

Also, how many people do dungeons to make money and nothing else. They don’t care about dungeons or challenges. They care about quick loot? Because if you give those same players a non-dungeon way to make loot, if it’s more efficient, they’re there. By leaving dungeons one of the more profitable things in the game, Anet has skewed dungeon numbers to be higher than they would be.

1. ‘pretty sure’ most people havnt beaten all the LS let alone all the LS chievs either. Whats your point? (not actually asking)

2. ‘The problem with liking and focusing on something is you assume that most people will feel the same. It’s not true. It’s never been true.’ This kinda contradicts your first paragraph. Just because your guild does one thing dosnt mean everyone else’s does.

3. Raiding is always a vocal minority. The biggest difficulty of raiding is also organizing the number of people needed for it and dealing with ancient loot systems. Yet Anet pushed encounters like TEQ and 3WRM on us that require(d) massive guilds with similar organizing nightmares. They make you wait in zones for 30-hr beforehand with your graphics at low to make sure you get into a good map, spamming to get into a good map, hoping you dont get DC’d, hoping one of the mindless zerglings dont flub up things for everyone else. The fights themselves are awesome, but the implementation is awful. Small player instanced content is a good thing for so many reasons.

4. lol. Congratulations. You figured out that players in games like unique rewards and loot. Lots of people I know only farmed SW until they got their full glowy armor set, lots of people still run TEQ daily for a shot at TEQ Horde. Maybe jumping puzzles in LA should give 1.5g each and each path of AC should give a few emp fragments and a couple greens? (not actually asking)

Talk about skewing results, I think their new daily system indicates they’re trying to funnel people into less played things if anything.

Loex.5104:

actually raids are nothing but dungeons with bosses where you have to use a special tactic to beat them (mostly with different phases where your group has to do different things -> organisation) – that concept is 100% usable in normal 5 man group content (i think its harder for open world content but its possible).

I Think thats why ANet hired Raid and AI designers – not to implement raids as we know (10 – 25 or 40 man) but to implement interesting mechanics in all content-types

You quoted the wrong person.

Raids are called raids because you need more people which usually implies required coordination. And I agree that hiring a raid designer doesn’t mean there are going to be typical raids in gw2.

rotten.9753:

Loex.5104:

actually raids are nothing but dungeons with bosses where you have to use a special tactic to beat them (mostly with different phases where your group has to do different things -> organisation) – that concept is 100% usable in normal 5 man group content (i think its harder for open world content but its possible).

I Think thats why ANet hired Raid and AI designers – not to implement raids as we know (10 – 25 or 40 man) but to implement interesting mechanics in all content-types

You quoted the wrong person.

Raids are called raids because you need more people which usually implies required coordination. And I agree that hiring a raid designer doesn’t mean there are going to be typical raids in gw2.

oh, im sorry for that.

Sure they are called raids because of the larger number of players but technically they are nothing but large dungeons with more mechanics which require more coordination. And coordination and mechanics are not bound to a lot of people you can implement nearly every mechanic into 5man content.

Loex.5104:

Sure they are called raids because of the larger number of players but technically they are nothing but large dungeons with more mechanics which require more coordination. And coordination and mechanics are not bound to a lot of people you can implement nearly every mechanic into 5man content.

True but I’m arguing with other poster that raids are played only by 10% players (according to lotro devs) because it requires a higher degree of coordination and more effort and that dungeons were abandoned because of that (which I don’t agree with).

rotten.9753:

Windsagio.1340:

Zaw, the essential flaw in your argument is that they pretty clearly quit making dungeons due to participation issues. If they thought it was just lack of new content they likely would have done the opposite :p

Do you have any metrics? PvP is dead yet they constantly shove esports down our throats.

I don’t have metrics (as a general rule the raw numbers tend to be trade secrets), but I have observed behavior on Anets part.

If we work on the assumption that they’re a business first, it’s reasonable to think that they’re going to put their money where they think they can get the most benefit. PvP apparently qualifies while dungeons pretty clearly do not.

What’s a better alternate interpretation for them pushing one and not the other?

There’s another bit here, really.

I’d enjoy new dungeons but I don’t think they’ll happen.

People seem to be arguing from the starting point that they want dungeons badly and are looking for affirmation that they’ll happen.

Vayne.8563:

Also, how many people do dungeons to make money and nothing else. They don’t care about dungeons or challenges. They care about quick loot? Because if you give those same players a non-dungeon way to make loot, if it’s more efficient, they’re there. By leaving dungeons one of the more profitable things in the game, Anet has skewed dungeon numbers to be higher than they would be.

While I don’t disagree that dungeon runners are not a large part of the population I disagree highly with this entire paragraph.

My response can raelly be summed up with one word… Silverwastes.

Chest farming is insane gold, you really need to be extremely fast in dungeons to equal the amount of gold you can get from chest farms. The effort it takes in dungeons is far and above the effort it takes to chest farm. The effort for reward scale is insanely skewed, and the overall rewards are still at best equal if you’re one of those speed run dungeon crews.

Doesn’t that one zone debunk your entire theory in that paragraph?

I think the reason many people opt to run dungeons instaed of chest farming is because of the entertainment value. While many call dungeons boring and what not, it’s still more fun to run that years old content than it is to run circles and open chests.

And that’s why I think dungeons can contribute to the game even if the people who thrive in them is small. It’s something to mix stuff up. Diversity is key in an MMO, people will get burned out on a singular activity so you want to give them something else to do in this game so they aren’t going to another game.

A dungeon should provide 2 things to a game. A new game mode like I said above promoting diversity of content. And it should also challenge players, while open world content can be made challenging, most challenges can be overcome with numbers, and that’s what we see in this game a lot. I commend ANet for their scaling system, it was a great attempt to solve that issue, but fact remains it simply didn’t work in most cases. And with the megaserver you can’t really even try many things with low numbers anymore. Instances provide a solution to that issue and why they are so well suited for the challenging content.

To end, I’d point out ANets focus on realy driving home that they are putting in challenging content. There’s obviously a desire for this. However, realistically, anything really challenging will likely be done maybe once for an achievement by most and then abandoned to a small portion of the population… just like dungeons. Is it “worth their time”? Well, YES, it is, but numerically you’d have to answer no, but providing that bar for people to find a way to get over is something that promotes deeper play and mastery of the game, it motivates people, and that’s a good thing. That’s why there should be challenges, and the paragraph above this is why there should be instances… and well… basically dungeons.

I agree with Jerus on that. I still prefer doing a solo or duo run and give away remaining place for free to some guildmate over doing Silverwaste. I’m not saying that I don’t enjoy Silverwaste, but I only enjoy it in small dose. Same with fractal. I enjoy doing fractal for the content, the reward isn’t that good.

Silverwastes would be fun for me if it weren’t for the ‘only grinding for rewards’ jerkity-jerks who refuse to play the zone as intended.

Windsagio.1340:

Silverwastes would be fun for me if it weren’t for the ‘only grinding for rewards’ jerkity-jerks who refuse to play the zone as intended.

The overall pace of silverwastes bugs me a bit, not long enough breaks to make it worth the effort of say rotating towers, but the fact taht they’re there has me tabbing out and wanting to do other things between.

But, yeah, that’s where I go for some nice easy rewards, I can’t get myself to chest farm, literally puts me to sleep but the actual zone events are decently entertaining for the more relaxed play style. Like you said though, tough to find a map actually playing the zone though and not just soaking in the silly amount of rewards you can get for doing so little (both afk and chest farm issues)

Windsagio.1340:

What’s a better alternate interpretation for them pushing one and not the other?

They desperately want esports.

rotten.9753:

Windsagio.1340:

What’s a better alternate interpretation for them pushing one and not the other?

They desperately want esports.

but why?

Windsagio.1340:

rotten.9753:

Windsagio.1340:

What’s a better alternate interpretation for them pushing one and not the other?

They desperately want esports.

but why?

Have you seen the success of LoL? Not hard to imagine why someone would want their game to be seen in that same group… GW2 simply isn’t that though.

I think the reason they dont seem to push dungeons is a management issue. Stubborn management. Whenever you hear about former A.net employees they often describe it as ‘a good first place to work’ and talk about the lack of communication between teams. Lots of senior people left the company after the game launched and I get the impression its very hard for new people to give input; leaving a small amount of stubborn mismanaged leadership.

The one time I heard of an actual dungeon team was when they first made those AC changes and I guess everyone at A.net didnt know about it, so those guys were fired right after and never replaced.

Windsagio.1340:

but why?

$$$

So you think they’re doing it as a loss leader for that mad mad eSports money?

It’s a better reason than ’they’re just stubborn jerks’ but it still seems occam’d to me by “they believe PvP drives retention and isn’t too expensive to support”