Guild Wars 2

I didnt say ‘stubborn jerks’ I said ‘stubborn management’ and ‘lack of communication’.
Considering their history of lack of communication with the community do you really think thats impossible to believe within their own company?

Thats based on people that left the company and various testimonies.
Why else would they immediately fire and not replace the dungeon team after a few AC changes?

This is reason for them not making new dungeons (OP) – in regards to the Esports nonsense?, its not my forte but I agree with the above posting. Other games are successful at it and make tons of money, they want it too. Those games are pretty casual at the basic level so they figure their game is a good fit. I think they’ve ignored it for so long though that it will take far more effort to make as popular as they’d like.

Cbomb.4310:

I didnt say ‘stubborn jerks’ I said ‘stubborn management’ and ‘lack of communication’.
Considering their history of lack of communication with the community do you really think thats impossible to believe within their own company?

Thats based on people that left the company and various testimonies.
Why else would they immediately fire and not replace the dungeon team after a few AC changes?

This is reason for them not making new dungeons (OP) – in regards to the Esports nonsense?, its not my forte but I agree with the above posting. Other games are successful at it and make tons of money, they want it too. Those games are pretty casual at the basic level so they figure their game is a good fit. I think they’ve ignored it for so long though that it will take far more effort to make as popular as they’d like.

I know from my own experience, exit interviews are often… biased.

At issue is the ‘stubborn’ argument comes down to saying “They’re incompetant and prejudiced in a particular way” along with some speculation on the why’s of particular decisions.

I still think ‘they have numbers to support this mode over this mode’ is simpler and more likely than “they’re subborn and lazy (and a bit incompetent)”

…especially when we’re discussing the why’s of a decision that we all see coming that we don’t like.

Windsagio.1340:

Cbomb.4310:

I didnt say ‘stubborn jerks’ I said ‘stubborn management’ and ‘lack of communication’.
Considering their history of lack of communication with the community do you really think thats impossible to believe within their own company?

I know from my own experience, exit interviews are often… biased.

At issue is the ‘stubborn’ argument comes down to saying “They’re incompetant and prejudiced in a particular way” along with some speculation on the why’s of particular decisions.

I still think ‘they have numbers to support this mode over this mode’ is simpler and more likely than “they’re subborn and lazy (and a bit incompetent)”

…especially when we’re discussing the why’s of a decision that we all see coming that we don’t like.

They are biased – but the parts we’re looking at leave little room for interpretation and we have no clear answers from A.net on why they wont develop dungeons. Many senior people did leave soon after the game launched – FACT. This leaves a smaller amount of senior people and their vision of the game – FACT. The one dungeon team they had was booted right after a couple AC changes – FACT. They were never replaced with a new dungeon team – FACT.

If you ignore the supposed ‘bias’ of former employees claiming that departments dont communicate well with each other this means… they were just bad workers that didnt read memos? They did so bad that A.net didnt hire replacements?

In reality, the testimonies of former employees were not bitter at all. They very clearly stated it was a good ‘first place to work’ for those new to the industry but made it sound as though it was a bad place to work if you had contradictory ideas for the game that differed from the (now dwindling) senior management.

Windsagio.1340:

So you think they’re doing it as a loss leader for that mad mad eSports money?

It’s a better reason than ’they’re just stubborn jerks’ but it still seems occam’d to me by “they believe PvP drives retention and isn’t too expensive to support”

We’re not talking supporting PVP

We’re talking eSports.

Very very big difference.

Supporting PVP would have been adding maps or different game types, not creating some big prize pool and doing a big event on twitch.

What eSports are is advertising. You create a spark with tournaments and then the advertising happens on it’s own.

GW2’s esports has simply not been able to catch fire. Look at twitch, a minute ago we were looking at 278k viewers for LoL…gw2, a whopping 1300. Granted Phantaram was like half of the viewers but still, it’s not taking off like they’re hoping.

PvP is something that helps retain players, you’re right there, but eSports is all about advertising, making it THE game people want to play and master and become the best, gw2 simply can’t gain a footing there. But it’s a worth attempt if they were to be able to create a Twitch presence like you see with other games, as it’d be advertising, it’d grab a lot of people’s attention, sell a lot more copies, make them a lot of money potentially… but again, it’s not really taking off.

Windsagio.1340:

So you think they’re doing it as a loss leader for that mad mad eSports money?

It’s a better reason than ’they’re just stubborn jerks’ but it still seems occam’d to me by “they believe PvP drives retention and isn’t too expensive to support”

Considering they’ve given out close to $1,000,000 in prize money I don’t think anyone can claim that PvP isn’t expensive.

The devs desperately want this game to be an Esport, but it never will, and they are wasting valuable money that could be spent on actually making the game better, instead of just giving it away.

So, I’ve tapped into one of the mantras.

Important notes for this meme:
1) The dungeon community knows the numbers better than Anet
2) The dungeon community knows anets motivations better than Anet
3) Anet is playing a long game that the dungeon community knows (rightly) will never pay out.

~~~

Development costs for PvP are low. Promotional costs into pvp don’t just promote pvp, they promote the game as well. Tournaments and big payouts get game media coverage.

How do you guys even think ***Esports even makes money for a developer?

How can you know what are the costs of developing pvp?

Both pvp and instanced pve need constant stream of a new content (maps, modes, etc) and pvp players require as well a constant attention to the balance. 6 months balance periods are way too long.

The last WTS tournament got about 12k viewers despite 50k prize on the table, that’s less than some random wow streamer gets daily. Riot and valve put millions of dollars into esports yet anet wants to get some bites with 150,000$. Plus, the game is hardly watchable.

Windsagio.1340:

So, I’ve tapped into one of the mantras.

Important notes for this meme:
1) The dungeon community knows the numbers better than Anet
2) The dungeon community knows anets motivations better than Anet
3) Anet is playing a long game that the dungeon community knows (rightly) will never pay out.

Quite trolly.

1. People claiming numbers in this thread are those that insist we shouldnt have new dungeons because THEY know numbers.

2. Nobody does, we’re discussing it here though.

3. If you mean esports, its a decent guess which people in said community and out of it agree and disagree with.

Only thing worse than the supposedly ‘toxic dungeon community’ are people that hate on people wanting dungeons, insist on griefing groups with ‘play how you want’ troll builds, and start up ‘someone playing zerker was mean to me today’ threads with no understanding of basic concepts. Ive suffered far worse from people like you than any ‘elitist pros’ in this game.

Troll elsewhere please.

Windsagio.1340:

So, I’ve tapped into one of the mantras.

Important notes for this meme:
1) The dungeon community knows the numbers better than Anet
2) The dungeon community knows anets motivations better than Anet
3) Anet is playing a long game that the dungeon community knows (rightly) will never pay out.

~~~

Development costs for PvP are low. Promotional costs into pvp don’t just promote pvp, they promote the game as well. Tournaments and big payouts get game media coverage.

How do you guys even think ***Esports even makes money for a developer?

So you bash people for making assumptions or claims and then make one of your own… why do you believe development costs for PVP are low? Is it because it really doesn’t get much development and simply rides on the fact that it’s a fluid changing environment as you play other people?

As for your “notes”, well, you’re a bit off base I think. At least personally I don’t feel I know their metrics better tahn them or their motivations, I do believe they’re key motivation is money… it’s a business afterall. I have no doubt dungeon players are a low %.

What my claim is however is that challenging content is good for a game. Creating a bar for people to try and climb/jump over is something that keeps people motivated in trying to improve. With this upcoming expansion it seems ANet emphatically agrees with that, we jsut differ on views of how it should be done potentially. I say Dungeon, they simply don’t say anything though imply that it’s not going to be that.

I’ll be happy with challenging content, my question is, can they pull it off? Creating it in open world where zergs can trivialize most anything has that big challenge to figure out. Put it in an instance and well… we’re basically talking dungeon but maybe by a different name. We’ll see what they do.

Either way they do it, the challenging content will likely see the same limited number of players that we see with dungeons. If you put an escalator on one side and a rock wall on the other, which do you think people will use to go up? It’s not a surprising effect.

Not been following this thread closely for a while. Id just like to point something out. The dungeon community was actually pretty big at the start of the game. Its obviously shrunk hugely because there has been no major updates or additions. And the type of players that like dungeons and instanced content left for other games. Leaving only a small community of players that stuck around.

Saying the dungeon community is a minority is fine. Saying thats a reason not to develop new instanced content is rather short sighted. Especially as the reason it has become a minority is because of neglect. Putting development resources into that area will bring a lot of players back and bring in a lot of new players that like that type of content.

Im sure Anet knows this. It just hasnt been a priority yet. Hopefully im wrong about that and we will see something in HoT. Personally I consider it a pretty poor business decision not to try and bring in a large group of dedicated and hardcore players. Those players tend to be the ones that invest in a game for longer, spend more money and end up being more loyal. But you have to give them something to hook them in first.

Why do I think it’s cheaper?

It’s actually really simple: Effectively 0 asset development.

Even something like the Glorious armor is a tiny fraction of the art/asset work of doing a new dungeon. Designwise you need people doing skill balance, but you don’t need an encounter designer.

If you’re designing a new map, yes the costs are similar (but still likely smaller, less encounter design and the pvp maps don’t tend to be as big or complex), but we all know how massively common new pvp maps are.

Admitting I’m estimating, I’d guess that a full dungeon is 3-5 pvp maps of art and level design. Combined with the fact that the vast majority of the pvp development hasn’t been content per se, I feel pretty kitten safe saying it’s cheaper.

Should note the server and matchmaking stuff isn’t free, and that’s a cost that pve doesn’t have, but its my experience that content development is more expensive per gain.

@Spoj: As I’ve mentioned, I think dungoneers have been digging their own grave on that. Regardless of who’s at fault, the meta/anti-meta drama and arguments have driven many people away from dungeons.

Thats absurd. People left way before the meta drama started happening. And its totally moronic for a business to neglect an entire demographic just because some people left. Its bad business to be petty and not to try and bring customers back just because they left a little early or because there are some bad apples.

Id like to believe even anet isnt that bad with business decisions.

Windsagio.1340:

but we all know how massively common new pvp maps are.

This kinda sums up my point… I’d hardly call tweaking a few skills to screw with people development. PVP sees very little development. Though they did get an awesome UI and matchmaking upgrade not long ago, which I imagine was quite a bit of work if you believe that the hero’s panel upgrade we got a while ago was supposedly in development from the start of the game… that’s quite a bit of time for UI adjustments.

Windsagio.1340:

@Spoj: As I’ve mentioned, I think dungoneers have been digging their own grave on that. Regardless of who’s at fault, the meta/anti-meta drama and arguments have driven many people away from dungeons.

You mean when the meta was knights gear with a Pillar guard possibly wearing soldiers gear even? You mean back then before zerk meta?

Yeah…

I’d believe most likely people didn’t do dungeons because they actually challenged players and they were unknown. So the majority cowered away and found a comfy place to farm for cash to make shinies. Just like I have no doubt that this “challenging content” Anet is bring will either not be challenging at all and zerg rushed the instant people gain access to it, or will again be ignored by most while they sit in their newly found comfort zones farming for the new legendaries.

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

@Spoj: As I’ve mentioned, I think dungoneers have been digging their own grave on that. Regardless of who’s at fault, the meta/anti-meta drama and arguments have driven many people away from dungeons.

You mean when the meta was knights gear with a Pillar guard possibly wearing soldiers gear even? You mean back then before zerk meta?

Yeah…

I’d believe most likely people didn’t do dungeons because they actually challenged players and they were unknown. So the majority cowered away and found a comfy place to farm for cash to make shinies. Just like I have no doubt that this “challenging content” Anet is bring will either not be challenging at all and zerg rushed the instant people gain access to it, or will again be ignored by most while they sit in their newly found comfort zones farming for the new legendaries.

I didn’t say which meta, did I :p

Still, I should quit bringing up that point, it’s not particularly constructive to the question at hand, which is that Anet apparently feels that dungeons aren’t worth developing.

I’m gonna stick to my basic point for this (will bold and italic because I’m like that):

If arenanet thought dungeons were a good investment of their resources they’d spend resources on developing dungeons

People are trying to say it’s bad company culture or stubbornness or whatever for that, and I’m just going to keep repeating that its far far more likely that Anet thinks it’s not worth investing resources… and that it’s more likely they know the right answer on that than it is that we know the right anwer on that.

Jerus.4350:

Vayne.8563:

Also, how many people do dungeons to make money and nothing else. They don’t care about dungeons or challenges. They care about quick loot? Because if you give those same players a non-dungeon way to make loot, if it’s more efficient, they’re there. By leaving dungeons one of the more profitable things in the game, Anet has skewed dungeon numbers to be higher than they would be.

While I don’t disagree that dungeon runners are not a large part of the population I disagree highly with this entire paragraph.

My response can raelly be summed up with one word… Silverwastes.

Chest farming is insane gold, you really need to be extremely fast in dungeons to equal the amount of gold you can get from chest farms. The effort it takes in dungeons is far and above the effort it takes to chest farm. The effort for reward scale is insanely skewed, and the overall rewards are still at best equal if you’re one of those speed run dungeon crews.

Doesn’t that one zone debunk your entire theory in that paragraph?

I think the reason many people opt to run dungeons instaed of chest farming is because of the entertainment value. While many call dungeons boring and what not, it’s still more fun to run that years old content than it is to run circles and open chests.

And that’s why I think dungeons can contribute to the game even if the people who thrive in them is small. It’s something to mix stuff up. Diversity is key in an MMO, people will get burned out on a singular activity so you want to give them something else to do in this game so they aren’t going to another game.

A dungeon should provide 2 things to a game. A new game mode like I said above promoting diversity of content. And it should also challenge players, while open world content can be made challenging, most challenges can be overcome with numbers, and that’s what we see in this game a lot. I commend ANet for their scaling system, it was a great attempt to solve that issue, but fact remains it simply didn’t work in most cases. And with the megaserver you can’t really even try many things with low numbers anymore. Instances provide a solution to that issue and why they are so well suited for the challenging content.

To end, I’d point out ANets focus on realy driving home that they are putting in challenging content. There’s obviously a desire for this. However, realistically, anything really challenging will likely be done maybe once for an achievement by most and then abandoned to a small portion of the population… just like dungeons. Is it “worth their time”? Well, YES, it is, but numerically you’d have to answer no, but providing that bar for people to find a way to get over is something that promotes deeper play and mastery of the game, it motivates people, and that’s a good thing. That’s why there should be challenges, and the paragraph above this is why there should be instances… and well… basically dungeons.

Zone doesn’t debunk the theory since the chest farm in the Silverwastes is a month old and dungeons have been around a while. There are people who don’t have a clue that the Silverwastes can give you money. A lot of people. I run into them all the time.

There are still people running around who think that four warriors and a mesmer are the ideal dungeon grouping.

More to the point, no one can say the dungeon running population hasn’t fallen off since the Silverwastes has become so profitable. I assume it has. I know people who used to run dungeons for money who now spend more time in the Silverwastes.

So unless you have evidence the dungeon running population hasn’t decreased, I’m not sure what your point is.

spoj.9672:

Thats absurd. People left way before the meta drama started happening. And its totally moronic for a business to neglect an entire demographic just because some people left. Its bad business to be petty and not to try and bring customers back just because they left a little early or because there are some bad apples.

Id like to believe even anet isnt that bad with business decisions.

While you think it’s absurd, I think it make alot of sense. Any company reviews the elements of their business and stop developments that won’t give ROI or appeal to the market they want to target. I think that’s exactly what’s happening here for exactly the reason you think it’s a bad business decision.

I also can’t help but think, like Wind, that the idea that dungeons are not a high priority is at least somewhat linked to what Anet want’s the game to be, who they want it to appeal to and the fact that dungeons are the MOST player polarizing content in the game. We could all argue what the cause of that polarization is but I think the result is that it does have a damaging effect on the game and Anet’s approach is to simply let it work itself out, knowing that a certain part of the population will simply leave after a while.

This is just my opinion, but I think developing dungeon content along the lines of what we see for SE, CoE, etc.. is too expensive, not enough interest.

They already have the casual open world demographic hooked. It makes sense from a business standpoint to expand and develop other areas. As any development in an already very longterm successful area doesnt bring in as many players as new unchartered territories might. Specialising towards just one demographic is limiting your customer base. Its not smart.

I agree i dont think anet has seen it as a priority for a long time. But its still something they are aware of and want to expand on. Im hopeful that they are doing something with HoT because they finally have the freedom to. Or atleast creating the backbone to expand that area in the future.

Vayne.8563:

By leaving dungeons one of the more profitable things in the game, Anet has skewed dungeon numbers to be higher than they would be.

And by not adding new dungeons, ANet has skewed dungeon numbers to be lower than they would be.

The devs came out and said that producing dungeon content was too costly. They never said anything about dungeon runners being a low percentage of the population. You have no idea why it’s too costly. Maybe they didn’t invest enough early on in tools for creating dungeons. Or maybe the devs who built those tools left the company and their code is unmaintainable without them. Or it could simply be that the resources spent on making dungeons would be better suited to making expansion content, new skins, or PvP tournaments that generate publicity. Or maybe those resources are better off making living story content, not because more people do open-world content, but because new content in any form gets people logging in and spending money. It could be that dungeon runners are a high percentage of the population but have poor monetization rates or low retention.

Basically, in the absence of data you’ve made an assumption. There are a number of other valid reasons as to why they stopped producing dungeon content, so stop being so dismissive of what others are saying.

Windsagio.1340:

People are trying to say it’s bad company culture or stubbornness or whatever for that, and I’m just going to keep repeating that its far far more likely that Anet thinks it’s not worth investing resources… and that it’s more likely they know the right answer on that than it is that we know the right anwer on that.

@Windsagio
I’m going to say that even though I’ve repeated my evidence and reasoning of that, based on the testimonies of people that actually do/have worked for A.net, you’ve ignored it, drawn your own conclusions based on the Disney principles of ‘if I believe hard enough its true!’ and tried to pass it off as fact while simultaneously insulting the ‘dungeon community’ because some Zerker stole your bicycle.
Its not true, and not more likely. You don’t know the reasons (as others have stated)

Lots of companies these days take advantage of popular franchises to mooch off them; lead them on insisting on greener pastures. If HoT is merely a way to advertise more gemstore shinies with no real meat, then YES you’re absolutely right its not ‘worth’ making new dungeons, but it also warrants a discussion because its not something I want to help them hype up.

Discussing the future of instanced content is worth a discussion, hating on players that want that is not.

spoj.9672:

They already have the casual open world demographic hooked. It makes sense from a business standpoint to expand and develop other areas. As any development in an already very longterm successful area doesnt bring in as many players as new unchartered territories might. Specialising towards just one demographic is limiting your customer base. Its not smart.

I agree i dont think anet has seen it as a priority for a long time. But its still something they are aware of and want to expand on. Im hopeful that they are doing something with HoT because they finally have the freedom to. Or atleast creating the backbone to expand that area in the future.

Expansion of the playerbase would make sense, but not spearheaded by content that pits various ‘factions’ of players against each other to make the game perceived as unfriendly, especially if that can spill over in elements of the game that are not competitive. That experiment has already been played out; I can’t say that we still don’t feel the fallout from that.

This is IMO, why dungeons are going to die a slow, painful death and reborn into something that might not even be recognized as a dungeon. I predict that the nightmare tower LS Episode or the Halloween Labyrinth is very close to what might emerge as the ‘new’ dungeon format; it’s instanced, has an end goal, some mini achievements and still requires players to co-operate, but reduces the impact any individuals performance/build has on other players. I’m guessing this is exactly what HoT will be …

Anet has already decided to limit themselves to a specific kind of player and they have been rather successful with that approach. Therefore, I don’t make the link between a bad business decision and ignoring dungeons. Would they be more successful appealing to more people of different gameplay styles? I honestly think we have already seen what they are capable of with their studio in GW2; the game DID start out with a greater dev focus on dungeons. I’m also unsure of how fractals fits into all of this but it seems way more aimed at the type of players you’re describing that Anet is missing out on by ignoring dungeons. IIRC, fractals are much harder than dungeons … so why do we need harder dungeons to appeal to people that want harder content?

cthaeh.2168:

Vayne.8563:

By leaving dungeons one of the more profitable things in the game, Anet has skewed dungeon numbers to be higher than they would be.

And by not adding new dungeons, ANet has skewed dungeon numbers to be lower than they would be.

The devs came out and said that producing dungeon content was too costly. They never said anything about dungeon runners being a low percentage of the population. You have no idea why it’s too costly. Maybe they didn’t invest enough early on in tools for creating dungeons. Or maybe the devs who built those tools left the company and their code is unmaintainable without them. Or it could simply be that the resources spent on making dungeons would be better suited to making expansion content, new skins, or PvP tournaments that generate publicity. Or maybe those resources are better off making living story content, not because more people do open-world content, but because new content in any form gets people logging in and spending money. It could be that dungeon runners are a high percentage of the population but have poor monetization rates or low retention.

Basically, in the absence of data you’ve made an assumption. There are a number of other valid reasons as to why they stopped producing dungeon content, so stop being so dismissive of what others are saying.

Thank you. My vision of new dungeons aren’t brand new maps created for dungeons only but simply alterations to existing content within instances to create a system free of Zerg content to increase challenge with possibly alterations to existing bosses but mainly just limiting the assistance of outside help.

Personally I see Glint’s lair as a great example, Adjust the bosses and each coudl be a great encounter, add some trash (shouldn’t be hard to populate it with more trash) and boom you have a dungeon I’d love to run.

And, looking at Twitch, First was Phantaram by a far margin (600) but second was Miku doing a daily solo run of Arah (at 100+), to me that means taht there are peopls simply wanting to see dungeons run properly.

The PVE is easily the main goal of GW2, it’s the most run content, now typically the population runs towards the easiest thing, as I’ve hit on before, most people use escalators vs a rope, but having that extra challenge gives diversity to the content and gives people the escape to the monotony of doing the daily grind. It’s a good thing. I’d even go as far to say that ANet agrees with me on this as per their focus onthe fact that “Challenging content is coming”. But there’s a HUGE issue to addresss with zerg content, and that’s hard to surpass with open world, esp with megaservers.

I don’t necessarily want the old dungeons, I simply want group conntent that demands us to perform well to complete it in a timely manner. I actually think current content is designed quite well in that if you equip full nomads it’s hard to even fail. I like that. It creates a difficulty scale without hard coding it to exist.

Obtena.7952:

spoj.9672:

They already have the casual open world demographic hooked. It makes sense from a business standpoint to expand and develop other areas. As any development in an already very longterm successful area doesnt bring in as many players as new unchartered territories might. Specialising towards just one demographic is limiting your customer base. Its not smart.

I agree i dont think anet has seen it as a priority for a long time. But its still something they are aware of and want to expand on. Im hopeful that they are doing something with HoT because they finally have the freedom to. Or atleast creating the backbone to expand that area in the future.

Expansion of the playerbase would make sense, but not spearheaded by content that pits various ‘factions’ of players against each other to make the game perceived as unfriendly, especially if that can spill over in elements of the game that are not competitive. That experiment has already been played out; I can’t say that we still don’t feel the fallout from that.

This is IMO, why dungeons are going to die a slow, painful death and reborn into something that might not even be recognized as a dungeon. I predict that the nightmare tower LS Episode or the Halloween Labyrinth is very close to what might emerge as the ‘new’ dungeon format; it’s instanced, has an end goal, some mini achievements and still requires players to co-operate, but reduces the impact any individuals performance/build has on other players. I’m guessing this is exactly what HoT will be …

Anet has already decided to limit themselves to a specific kind of player and they have been rather successful with that approach. Therefore, I don’t make the link between a bad business decision and ignoring dungeons. Would they be more successful appealing to more people of different gameplay styles? I honestly think we have already seen what they are capable of with their studio in GW2; the game DID start out with a greater dev focus on dungeons. I’m also unsure of how fractals fits into all of this but it seems way more aimed at the type of players you’re describing that Anet is missing out on by ignoring dungeons. IIRC, fractals are much harder than dungeons … so why do we need harder dungeons to appeal to people that want harder content?

Who said anything about being spearheaded? You guys really like to overdramatise everything. And this is why we cant have decent discussions. Because it always resorts to a for and against arguement. Instead of contructive discussion about how it can be done.

Also i dont care what form the content is in. They can completely change its format for all i care. As long as its instanced or allows us to only play with people we want to if we so choose. Then im fine with it. People always seem to assume when we ask for dungeons were asking for carbon copies of what we already have. Noone has asked for that. We simply want instanced small group content. In most games those are referred to as dungeons. Even if they are completely different in format in each game. Excuse as for using the standard/common term.

ps. I find the whole “you dont have metrics to back your argument up” highly amusing. Its not like the other side has any metrics either.

Vayne.8563:

Jerus.4350:

Vayne.8563:

Also, how many people do dungeons to make money and nothing else. They don’t care about dungeons or challenges. They care about quick loot? Because if you give those same players a non-dungeon way to make loot, if it’s more efficient, they’re there. By leaving dungeons one of the more profitable things in the game, Anet has skewed dungeon numbers to be higher than they would be.

While I don’t disagree that dungeon runners are not a large part of the population I disagree highly with this entire paragraph.

My response can raelly be summed up with one word… Silverwastes.

Chest farming is insane gold, you really need to be extremely fast in dungeons to equal the amount of gold you can get from chest farms. The effort it takes in dungeons is far and above the effort it takes to chest farm. The effort for reward scale is insanely skewed, and the overall rewards are still at best equal if you’re one of those speed run dungeon crews.

Doesn’t that one zone debunk your entire theory in that paragraph?

I think the reason many people opt to run dungeons instaed of chest farming is because of the entertainment value. While many call dungeons boring and what not, it’s still more fun to run that years old content than it is to run circles and open chests.

And that’s why I think dungeons can contribute to the game even if the people who thrive in them is small. It’s something to mix stuff up. Diversity is key in an MMO, people will get burned out on a singular activity so you want to give them something else to do in this game so they aren’t going to another game.

A dungeon should provide 2 things to a game. A new game mode like I said above promoting diversity of content. And it should also challenge players, while open world content can be made challenging, most challenges can be overcome with numbers, and that’s what we see in this game a lot. I commend ANet for their scaling system, it was a great attempt to solve that issue, but fact remains it simply didn’t work in most cases. And with the megaserver you can’t really even try many things with low numbers anymore. Instances provide a solution to that issue and why they are so well suited for the challenging content.

To end, I’d point out ANets focus on realy driving home that they are putting in challenging content. There’s obviously a desire for this. However, realistically, anything really challenging will likely be done maybe once for an achievement by most and then abandoned to a small portion of the population… just like dungeons. Is it “worth their time”? Well, YES, it is, but numerically you’d have to answer no, but providing that bar for people to find a way to get over is something that promotes deeper play and mastery of the game, it motivates people, and that’s a good thing. That’s why there should be challenges, and the paragraph above this is why there should be instances… and well… basically dungeons.

Zone doesn’t debunk the theory since the chest farm in the Silverwastes is a month old and dungeons have been around a while. There are people who don’t have a clue that the Silverwastes can give you money. A lot of people. I run into them all the time.

There are still people running around who think that four warriors and a mesmer are the ideal dungeon grouping.

More to the point, no one can say the dungeon running population hasn’t fallen off since the Silverwastes has become so profitable. I assume it has. I know people who used to run dungeons for money who now spend more time in the Silverwastes.

So unless you have evidence the dungeon running population hasn’t decreased, I’m not sure what your point is.

Vayne.8563:

Vayne.8563:

<snip>

Zone doesn’t debunk the theory since the chest farm in the Silverwastes is a month old and dungeons have been around a while. There are people who don’t have a clue that the Silverwastes can give you money. A lot of people. I run into them all the time.

There are still people running around who think that four warriors and a mesmer are the ideal dungeon grouping.

More to the point, no one can say the dungeon running population hasn’t fallen off since the Silverwastes has become so profitable. I assume it has. I know people who used to run dungeons for money who now spend more time in the Silverwastes.

So unless you have evidence the dungeon running population hasn’t decreased, I’m not sure what your point is.

Really, a month old? hasn’t it been out since last year?

You’re telling me that these people in dungeons doing them daily are simply ignorant as to the possibility of chest farms… sorry, but that’s not only dumb but pretty offensive. The people who actually get good rewards from dungoens are the people who do a bit of research into the game and learn to do things with at least somewhat of a leaning towards optimisation, otherwise dungeons kinda suck. And they don’t bother to realize the amazing loot given for pretty much running in circles in SW, i find that hard to believe.

There certainly are people who run dungeons with the old meta in mind, that only strengthens my thought that people would rather run dungeons than farm boring content.

This is a game, people seek a certain level of entertainment out of it. Mindlessly picking up loot isn’t something I consider fun, I much rather have to work a little for my rewards. I can’t help but feel these people think the same. The idea that people havne’t heard of SW chest farming just seems so ridiculous that I’m astonished to see it used as an argument. It;s literally free loot, who doesn’t talk about it? Visit the forums once a month and you’ve surely seen it. Watch Map chat in Lions Arch and you’ve heard of it. Go do Living Story, the lifeblood of the game, and you’ve encountered it. It’s just an absurdity I can’t agree with, not for those farming gold. The casual player, sure, maybe, but they’re not going to be ever present on any demographic as you’d of had to be living in a cave (the real world) for the last couple months to not have heard of it.

spoj.9672:

Also i dont care what form the content is in. They can completely change its format for all i care. As long as its instanced or allows us to only play with people we want to if we so choose. Then im fine with it. People always seem to assume when we ask for dungeons were asking for carbon copies of what we already have. Noone has asked for that. We simply want instanced small group content. In most games those are referred to as dungeons. Even if they are completely different in format in each game. Excuse as for using the standard/common term.

I used the term spearheaded because currently, I don’t see a focused effort by Anet to try to appeal to the ‘hard content/dungeon running’ crowd. I’m also saying if they want to appeal to a larger player base, I don’t see dungeons being the vehicle because by it’s own nature, is limiting and exclusive play. To draw a parallel, perhaps if it was possible to level ONLY doing dungeons, like PVP, then Anet could provide that as a way to get the crowd in.

If you want a constructive discussion about how the game could appeal to higher skilled players under it’s current elements, then I think fractals is the more appropriate element of the game to concentrate on. Despite the unimaginative and questionable inclusion of AR to ensure more proficiency from players at higher levels, I believe that concept is a at least a start. It’s all the things you ask for.

I dont see why dungeons cant be a small side feature. It doesnt need to be the main focus. Which is what i assumed you were implying. I thought you were suggesting that to get dungeon development it has to be a major focus and hurt other development areas. Which im completely against.

And yes fractals could be the best alternative. Unfortunately it doesnt look like it will ever become the perfect format for it. With the poor rewards, RNG and completion time with no save progress. Theres a lot of good ideas to make it the perfect solution. But i doubt anet will completely overhaul the entire format.

spoj.9672:

I dont see why dungeons cant be a small side feature. It doesnt need to be the main focus. Which is what i assumed you were implying. I thought you were suggesting that to get dungeon development it has to be a major focus and hurt other development areas. Which im completely against.

And yes fractals could be the best alternative. Unfortunately it doesnt look like it will ever become the perfect format for it. With the poor rewards, RNG and completion time with no save progress. Theres a lot of good ideas to make it the perfect solution. But i doubt anet will completely overhaul the entire format.

Well … I actually am suggesting that … Look at how the game is structured. You have people interested in fast PVP matches? Cool, we have a completely separate part of the game dedicated to them with progression rewards. PVE for the casual guy? Probably the best served customers, again with progression rewards. People that want to do some longer term competitive PVP content with strategic elements? Awesome, WvW coming right up … more progression rewards.

OK, now, hardcore PVE players … um, some abandoned dungeon content that just repeats itself. Rewards yes, but progression (talking levels, bonus, rank SPECIFIC to dungeons), nada.

Dungeons are already a small side feature, so I don’t see what you’re actually asking for. I agree that fractals are crappy for those reasons you list but it’s the closest thing you have for those people. Anet can fix the crappy bit if inclined. More likely to happen than reinventing a whole new dungeon scene I think.

If it were me, I would suggest fixing what is crap with Fractals, increase the levels to the point of making them so difficult, they couldn’t be completed and add some sort of reward track, like PVP, that would grant some kind of bonus to the individual when doing fractals. Simple example: If you run fractals for gold, you could choose gold bouns. If you run fractals for challenge, you could take the AR bonus to progress higher. Whatever it is, it has to make the player feel like their part of the game.

Jerus.4350:

Vayne.8563:

Vayne.8563:

<snip>

Zone doesn’t debunk the theory since the chest farm in the Silverwastes is a month old and dungeons have been around a while. There are people who don’t have a clue that the Silverwastes can give you money. A lot of people. I run into them all the time.

There are still people running around who think that four warriors and a mesmer are the ideal dungeon grouping.

More to the point, no one can say the dungeon running population hasn’t fallen off since the Silverwastes has become so profitable. I assume it has. I know people who used to run dungeons for money who now spend more time in the Silverwastes.

So unless you have evidence the dungeon running population hasn’t decreased, I’m not sure what your point is.

Really, a month old? hasn’t it been out since last year?

You’re telling me that these people in dungeons doing them daily are simply ignorant as to the possibility of chest farms… sorry, but that’s not only dumb but pretty offensive. The people who actually get good rewards from dungoens are the people who do a bit of research into the game and learn to do things with at least somewhat of a leaning towards optimisation, otherwise dungeons kinda suck. And they don’t bother to realize the amazing loot given for pretty much running in circles in SW, i find that hard to believe.

There certainly are people who run dungeons with the old meta in mind, that only strengthens my thought that people would rather run dungeons than farm boring content.

This is a game, people seek a certain level of entertainment out of it. Mindlessly picking up loot isn’t something I consider fun, I much rather have to work a little for my rewards. I can’t help but feel these people think the same. The idea that people havne’t heard of SW chest farming just seems so ridiculous that I’m astonished to see it used as an argument. It;s literally free loot, who doesn’t talk about it? Visit the forums once a month and you’ve surely seen it. Watch Map chat in Lions Arch and you’ve heard of it. Go do Living Story, the lifeblood of the game, and you’ve encountered it. It’s just an absurdity I can’t agree with, not for those farming gold. The casual player, sure, maybe, but they’re not going to be ever present on any demographic as you’d of had to be living in a cave (the real world) for the last couple months to not have heard of it.

LMAO! Offensive. Have you looked at the player base?

You think everyone is on the forums, researching the game like it’s a second career. There are many who are just creatures of habit and do what they always did. Not a few. Many. Most? I don’t know that but I know many from long experience.

There are people playing this game who haven’t been to Drytop yet.

Dry top sucks except for karma, the idea that people haven’t heard of chest farming for months now… I mean you yourself felt the need to exaggerate to prove a pointabout it being a month… no, people have heard of chest farming, I’ve yet to encounter those who haven;t that arent extremely casual about playing. You say you have a gguild of 200, I’m in a guild of almost 400 and pretty sure all those that actually play have heard of it.

spoj.9672:

I dont see why dungeons cant be a small side feature. It doesnt need to be the main focus. Which is what i assumed you were implying. I thought you were suggesting that to get dungeon development it has to be a major focus and hurt other development areas. Which im completely against.

And yes fractals could be the best alternative. Unfortunately it doesnt look like it will ever become the perfect format for it. With the poor rewards, RNG and completion time with no save progress. Theres a lot of good ideas to make it the perfect solution. But i doubt anet will completely overhaul the entire format.

That’s my central point though. The problem with dungeons is that they’re relatively expensive to develop. You need a new environment, tighter encounter design, special rewards, it adds up. The numbers come up because if more people did them the cost would be more justifiable.

I’d agree that fractals are the best alternative, and by all signs that’s what they’re going for.

Jerus.4350:

Dry top sucks except for karma, the idea that people haven’t heard of chest farming for months now… I mean you yourself felt the need to exaggerate to prove a pointabout it being a month… no, people have heard of chest farming, I’ve yet to encounter those who haven;t that arent extremely casual about playing. You say you have a gguild of 200, I’m in a guild of almost 400 and pretty sure all those that actually play have heard of it.

You’ve yet to hear of anyone. People still post questions about what it is, and those are people that visit forums. Sorry but you’re grossly overestimating the “average” player. It’s a pretty well known fact that most MMO players never visit forums much less post on them. We represent a small percentage of the player base.

There are people who entered the Silverwastes once, got owned by mordrem and never went back and they’ve posted here.

Not sure why you haven’t read any of those posts.

Obtena.7952:

OK, now, hardcore PVE players … um, some abandoned dungeon content that just repeats itself. Rewards yes, but progression (talking levels, bonus, rank SPECIFIC to dungeons), nada.

Dungeons are for hardcore players? Dungeons take on avg. 10-30 minutes, that’s perfectly casual and even less time than the full breach progress with vinewrath.

Those pve players who want instanced pve content want to matter, they don’t want to be a zergling pressing 1 to get a new reward. They want to be rewarded for their effort.

rotten.9753:

Obtena.7952:

OK, now, hardcore PVE players … um, some abandoned dungeon content that just repeats itself. Rewards yes, but progression (talking levels, bonus, rank SPECIFIC to dungeons), nada.

Dungeons are for hardcore players? Dungeons take on avg. 10-30 minutes, that’s perfectly casual and even less time than the full breach progress with vinewrath.

Those pve players who want instanced pve content want to matter, they don’t want to be a zergling pressing 1 to get a new reward. They want to be rewarded for their effort.

That’s not what I said. You missed my point … that’s OK because it’s worth repeating. I will make a more general statement:

If Anet wants to appeal to a certain category of player, they need to provide an environment that is similar to what the other players get in the game. Dungeons are not that environment for that type of player.

Obtena.7952:

That’s not what I said. You missed my point … that’s OK because it’s worth repeating. I will make a more general statement:

If Anet wants to appeal to a certain category of player, they need to provide an environment that is similar to what the other players get in the game. Dungeons are not that environment for that type of player.

How they are not? Explain the difference between open world pve rewards and instanced pve rewards then.

How are dungeons not the environment for hardcore type players? If it’s not, why is there so much dissatisfaction for the dungeon crowd? I think it’s pretty obvious. Do people that want challenging content in a team format have a legitimate issue with the level of difficulty in dungeon content or not? I’m assuming they do; If not, then we might as well shut down all the threads complaining about it.

I don’t see what the similarity or difference between OW and instanced PVE rewards has to do with the the gaming environment that appeals to hardcore type players; regardless of the kind of activities different players like, the game is based on the gold standard. I don’t see what are you trying to suggest by this line of questioning. Perhaps if you explain yourself, I can provide an answer to your question if it’s relevant to the thread.

Obtena.7952:

How are dungeons not the environment for hardcore type players? If it’s not, why is there so much dissatisfaction for the dungeon crowd? I think it’s pretty obvious. Do people that want challenging content in a team format have a legitimate issue with the level of difficulty in dungeon content or not? I’m assuming they do; If not, then we might as well shut down all the threads complaining about it.

I don’t see what the similarity or difference between OW and instanced PVE rewards has to do with the the gaming environment that appeals to hardcore type players; regardless of the kind of activities different players like, the game is based on the gold standard. I don’t see what are you trying to suggest by this line of questioning. Perhaps if you explain yourself, I can provide an answer to your question if it’s relevant to the thread.

Hardcore players are players that can play for e.g. 4 hours daily. Raids are usually what hardcore players focus on. Dungeons in this game take about 10-30 minutes to complete and are doable by anyone.

People in this thread want new dungeons not because it’s hardcore but because it’s instanced. They don’t want to be the one player in a hundred pressing 1, where their actions don’t matter. They want to contribute.

Obviously, it should be harder than open world encounters because the coordination will be much higher even without any voice communication.

You’re getting hung up on semantics. If the only issue of the people in this thread is they want instanced content, there are dozens of such things that exist in the game through the existing dungeons and fractals of varying rewards, duration and difficulty. If that’s really the problem, then I think people are being narrowminded. How much instanced content is enough to satisfy those that are complaining? Maybe those people should look at the volume of content other groups have in the game and really ask themselves if the amount of content they have access too is as limited as they think.

I think the core problem is the lack of development focus Anet has on instanced content for teams, not that there isn’t enough of it.

Obtena.7952:

You’re getting hung up on semantics. If the only issue of the people in this thread is they want instanced content, there are dozens of such things that exist in the game through the existing dungeons and fractals of varying rewards, duration in difficulty. I don’t think that’s the problem here. If so, then I must question how much instanced content is enough to satisfy those that are complaining? Clearly even the varied and numerous existing content isn’t enough.

It’s not an issue of how much instanced content should be but how much instanced content should be focused on by development teams. So far, in two years we got 1 completely new fractal and 4 cut from living story dungeons which are no longer playable. We also got one new path which is deserted because its rewards is too much rng (would be interesting to see if the deleted path had comparable popularity to aether path).

There’s no team focused on dungeons and the bugs are not fixed even after 2 years. I mean, how can you even wonder why people complain when anet virtually doesn’t touch dungeons? It’s mind-boggling for me.

Vayne.8563:

Jerus.4350:

Dry top sucks except for karma, the idea that people haven’t heard of chest farming for months now… I mean you yourself felt the need to exaggerate to prove a pointabout it being a month… no, people have heard of chest farming, I’ve yet to encounter those who haven;t that arent extremely casual about playing. You say you have a gguild of 200, I’m in a guild of almost 400 and pretty sure all those that actually play have heard of it.

You’ve yet to hear of anyone. People still post questions about what it is, and those are people that visit forums. Sorry but you’re grossly overestimating the “average” player. It’s a pretty well known fact that most MMO players never visit forums much less post on them. We represent a small percentage of the player base.

There are people who entered the Silverwastes once, got owned by mordrem and never went back and they’ve posted here.

Not sure why you haven’t read any of those posts.

We’re not just talking average players though are we? We’re talking people who regularly run dungeons. That was the point right? That dungeon numbers are artificially inflated due to rewards and that if anything easier came along with similar rewards they’d jump right on it. Well why am I still able to form a dungeon group with ease while seeing people wearing full Luminescent gear?

rotten.9753:

I mean, how can you even wonder why people complain when anet virtually doesn’t touch dungeons? It’s mind-boggling for me.

I don’t wonder about it, that’s why I can’t understand why you’re arguing with me or what your point is to argue with me about. I think there are many things to be unhappy with in dungeons/fractals; one of them happens to be how they relate to providing content to people that want that very challenging, team content. I would love to do them more myself if they didn’t have so many things I dislike about them.

Not having new, focused, instanced, small-group content in the game is disappointing. A lot of us find it enjoyable. Dungeons are standard fare in MMOs and RPGs. Without the “Dungeons” in Dungeons and Dragons, there wouldn’t be MMOs. There wouldn’t be RPGs and all of us wouldn’t be playing this game.

Obtena.7952:

I don’t wonder about it, that’s why I can’t understand why you’re arguing with me or what your point is to argue with me about. I think there are many things to be unhappy with in dungeons/fractals; one of them happens to be how they relate to providing content to people that want that very challenging, team content. I would love to do them more myself if they didn’t have so many things I dislike about them.

Dungeons were supposed to be challenging and they were at the start. But since almost nothing changed in 2,5 years they are now too easy. People learnt how to play and the new downscaling doesn’t help it either, in fact, it makes all sub 80 dungeons even more faceroll. Moreover, fractals have rewards which can be summed up with one word – sad.

Before the launch anet had less idea than now how their system works and this time they can design much better encounters which Izzy was talking about in one of the recent interview – how they want a content which isn’t beatable within few tries.

I wonder, though, what you don’t like so much about instanced content. I for one hate open world because it doesn’t teach you anything, it gives you reward for virtually spamming your attacks and you can’t pick your allies.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

In a typical boxed expansion, the majority of the repeatable content is in the form of dungeons/raids. Generally for a $40 expansion you will get 8-10 dungeons with 8-10 additional hard modes, and 2-3 raids. These dungeons are generally what keep people playing the content as they search for new gear and master the encounters…

Is there an equivalent in HoT? What will keep us playing after we finish the story 2-3 weeks in?

I just haven’t seen any info on this, i’m sure it is somewhere, but I can’t find it.

Generally? Based on which games? Look at GW1; with each expansion, how many dungeons did it have? Heck, how many dungeons did GW1 have at all?

This isn’t WoW. They have said from the beginning that things would be very different. That being the case, things like Vinewrath and some other things added during living story seem to indicate that they have been testing new ideas to engage players.

Morfedel.4165:

Generally? Based on which games? Look at GW1; with each expansion, how many dungeons did it have? Heck, how many dungeons did GW1 have at all?

The only expansion that gw1 had added 18 dungeons.

This isn’t WoW. They have said from the beginning that things would be very different. That being the case, things like Vinewrath and some other things added during living story seem to indicate that they have been testing new ideas to engage players.

> vinewrath
> engaging content
Pick one.

Obtena.7952:

I don’t wonder about it, that’s why I can’t understand why you’re arguing with me or what your point is to argue with me about. I think there are many things to be unhappy with in dungeons/fractals; one of them happens to be how they relate to providing content to people that want that very challenging, team content. I would love to do them more myself if they didn’t have so many things I dislike about them.

rotten.9753:

Dungeons were supposed to be challenging and they were at the start. But since almost nothing changed in 2,5 years they are now too easy. People learnt how to play and the new downscaling doesn’t help it either, in fact, it makes all sub 80 dungeons even more faceroll. Moreover, fractals have rewards which can be summed up with one word – sad.

This is part of the reason I don’t believe that dungeons are going to be sustainable, challenging content for anyone. They are a dead end. Unless Anet are releasing new dungeons every 3 months, this will always be true. It’s not a good vehicle to deliver challenging content in an efficient manner.

rotten.9753:

I wonder, though, what you don’t like so much about instanced content. I for one hate open world because it doesn’t teach you anything, it gives you reward for virtually spamming your attacks and you can’t pick your allies.

Nothing, I never said I don’t like instanced content … so … /shrug. I don’t understand why you’re so determined to pick a fight.

Obtena.7952:

This is part of the reason I don’t believe that dungeons are going to be sustainable, challenging content for anyone. They are a dead end. Unless Anet are releasing new dungeons every 3 months, this will always be true. It’s not a good vehicle to deliver challenging content in an efficient manner.

So it’s better to just design open world where 9 out of your 10 skills are not being used? A loot pinata, is that what this game should be? Farming gold in silverwastes just to buy a new weapon set from the gem store. Because right now it appears so.

Nothing, I never said I don’t like instanced content … so … /shrug. I don’t understand why you’re so determined to pick a fight.

I would love to do them more myself if they didn’t have so many things I dislike about them.

It’s a forum, you’re not always going to find likeminded people.

Obtena.7952:

Obtena.7952:

I don’t wonder about it, that’s why I can’t understand why you’re arguing with me or what your point is to argue with me about. I think there are many things to be unhappy with in dungeons/fractals; one of them happens to be how they relate to providing content to people that want that very challenging, team content. I would love to do them more myself if they didn’t have so many things I dislike about them.

rotten.9753:

Dungeons were supposed to be challenging and they were at the start. But since almost nothing changed in 2,5 years they are now too easy. People learnt how to play and the new downscaling doesn’t help it either, in fact, it makes all sub 80 dungeons even more faceroll. Moreover, fractals have rewards which can be summed up with one word – sad.

This is part of the reason I don’t believe that dungeons are going to be sustainable, challenging content for anyone. They are a dead end. Unless Anet are releasing new dungeons every 3 months, this will always be true. It’s not a good vehicle to deliver challenging content in an efficient manner.

Lupi and svanigandr have remained engaging since release. Well designed encounters remain engaging long term. Fractal bosses also have long term appeal. Its not a dead end. Anet admitted it themselves. It was difficult to create challenging and engaging content before they knew exactly how their combat system would work. They now know how to really get the best out of their combat so they should be able to create really engaging longterm encounters. Even open world stuff gets easier after a certain amount of time. Does that mean they should stop releasing new open world stuff like Tequatl and Triple Trouble? By your standards its all a dead end so none of it should be developed.

If the vehicle is a dead end then I believe they shouldn’t bother creating new content using it. I don’t consider content that is intended for a 5 man team that can be soloed by well-programmed individuals to be designed properly or engaging so I challenge your claim that ALOT of the content that you claim has long term appeal. I believe it’s appealing because it’s fast, easy gold for casuals. If you want dungeons to appeal to the crowd desiring higher challenge, the current dungeon approach isn’kitten You know this and so do the people complaining about dungeon content.

True, not all dungeons are as bad as Lupi, etc … and fractals far from it but if Anet’s approach is to supply more of the same, then that’s not a sustainable, good ROI part of their business.

Anet needs a new approach to whatever instanced, 5 man content challenges players.