Taking Grind to a whole new Level
The answer is simple, it’s by design more exclusive. Like my mini Mr. Sparkles. Just because virtual data CAN be copied endlessly doesn’t mean it should. Like technically money can be printed multiple times as well. But for obvious reasons they don’t do so.
Yes, but money is inherently worthless. It only has value because it represents a share of a government’s backing. The more you print, the less of a share it represents. If you print enough $100 bills, they will eventually become worth less than the paper they’re printed on.
An armor or weapon skin has inherent worth, however. It is worth however much the person who has it likes it, so you can replicate it infinitely and it retains the same inherent value. Even a skin players start with can have worth if people like how it looks, even though every player in the game can get it for free. Almost all of my characters currently wear at least one piece of armor that they started with (the skin, at least).
Plus I disagree with the materialistic viewpoint that having more stuff equals happiness. Maybe true for some people, but definitely not a fact for everyone.
True, but shouldn’t those for whom it IS true have the stuff that they want?
This is an MMO and as such you cannot give everything to everyone. You may be fine with getting stuff with little to no effort but to others that stuff will be meaningless. How many people do you know that are happy with getting blue/green drops? they got skins too but who cares, if one of those skins fits my character I’ll just buy it off TP I am not going to wait till I get the drop will I? So if everything was as easy to get as a blue Item what do you think will happen to the game? Ultimately its about getting the look we want but if playing a single dungeon run we’d have the money necessary to get all the awesome skins for all our characters (cause in our example they’re as easy to get as blues) what do you think that will do to the game? what will I log on for tomorrow? You who are in favor of such as system what would you log in for tomorrow if you had anything you needed already with enough left over to buy dozens of new skins Anet might release in the future?
Countless people shoot Gw2 down because they think its pointless to keep playing a game where you dont progress, you can see that on a lot of MMO forums. For these people cosmetic rewards just are not enough. Thats a pretty clear indication for these people playing content just for the fun of it is not enough, they need a reward, a purpose if you will to play.
You said locking skins behind effort is bad but locking titles is fine. Once again this is an MMO, different people value different things, what about those who care about titles more then they do about skins? They naturally think it should be the opposite, titles should be easy to get, skins should require an effort and who is Anet going to cater for?
Anet simply did the only thing they could do and they did it well. Skins are cosmetic if it takes you 6 months or a year to earn it, its not a big deal. All they can do and it is something they did is make sure those 6 months to a year involve as much varied gameplay as possible. But like people already stated if there is nothing you enjoy playing in the game there is no much anyone can do. Its not like giving you those skins easily will suddenly make any of the content you dont enjoy enjoyable anyway!
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I’ll leave this here: Remove the time-gate on Ascended crafting…
except the fractal back piece is an ascended item, not a legendary, and we don’t even completely know the requirements for the new legendary one coming which may or may not require 50-100 lvl fractals. legendarys were designed to be something for dedicated players that master ALL areas of the game. this IS NOT a casual friendly set of items, its designed for HARDCORE players. just because you want one doesn’t make you entitled to one easily. I don’t have a legendary specifically because i don’t feel like grinding out the things i would need to make one, but i am not going to demand anet give me one just because i am unwilling to change my play style. no, i deal with it and play the game without the unnecessary shiny.
Unlike you, I dont mind to grind but heavily dislike to be shoehorned into something by a game. And btw, I am pretty sure that all the GW2 players with a legendary have made them by doing ALL content instead of buying them on the TP. I am TOTALLY sure of that. So this argument is already killed from the start by Anet themselves.
@maddoctor
We had this argument already some time ago, didn´t we? The easier, differently coloured hammer of content X still hits the nail still as good as the sledgehammer of hard content X. I do not and did never even disagree that this is a grind, but why should you be spared the grind if I have to grind through raids when we see raids as something you have to repeatedly do to reach a goal and it is not fun for you?
except the fractal back piece is an ascended item, not a legendary, and we don’t even completely know the requirements for the new legendary one coming which may or may not require 50-100 lvl fractals. legendarys were designed to be something for dedicated players that master ALL areas of the game. this IS NOT a casual friendly set of items, its designed for HARDCORE players. just because you want one doesn’t make you entitled to one easily. I don’t have a legendary specifically because i don’t feel like grinding out the things i would need to make one, but i am not going to demand anet give me one just because i am unwilling to change my play style. no, i deal with it and play the game without the unnecessary shiny.
Unlike you, I dont mind to grind but heavily dislike to be shoehorned into something by a game. And btw, I am pretty sure that all the GW2 players with a legendary have made them by doing ALL content instead of buying them on the TP. I am TOTALLY sure of that. So this argument is already killed from the start by Anet themselves.
my argument is not “killed” that is EXACTLY what anet themselves had said legendarys are supposed to be, a trophy for people who have mastered ALL the games modes to a degree, they didn’t implement the first wave of legendarys to achieve this intended result hence why legnedarys are so common and the whole reason they are CHANGING the way the next wave of legendarys is obtained, and making them ACCOUNT BOUND, anet themselves is changeing the system to fit this legendary item philosophy better.
Anet also said that they would introduce this and that over the years, and look how their resolve waivered and how thing changed over time. Sometimes for the better, sometimes not.
And how does making stuff acount bound make it less grindy if you have to play all the aspects of the game, including the stuff you hate? People like you appear to me like someone that wants to find gold with the equpiment of a prospector of the 19th century with mules and shovels because it is very cheap and easy to obtain and whine when other people have collected metal craps from the floor and made a modern factory out of it.
My simple question to ANET, why are you trying to create a grindfest in a game that simply does not need one?
Non-Grind Repeatable Content is the holy grail of gaming development. Parts of GW2 that fit into this:
- WvW
- PvP
- Fracdulls (with their increasing difficulty)
- New competitive league-table adventures, or whatever that stuff is (still not sure)
All of these things are being given a fresh lick of paint in HoT.
So Anet are addressing grind concerns, I think it’s wrong to suggest otherwise.
^ Agreed. It sounds like the new legendaries can be obtained by participating in the end game content. I think that is great. Makes them more legendary.
Jade Quarry – Esparie
Illustrious Exhausted Primordial Legendary Druid, and Mesmer for fun
PvE | PvP (1500)| WvW | Fractals | Dungeons
Illustrious Exhausted Primordial Legendary Druid, and Mesmer for fun
PvE | PvP (1500)| WvW | Fractals | Dungeons
I’m not a fragile player, anything else changing, even tough i don’t like it, would not affect me at all. I play this game because i enjoy spending time in it, and working towards different goals. I love everything about it right now, except the fact atm there isn’t any good really hard content, wich should be fixed in HoT. When discussing this mmo with other people i’ll keep defending it and explaining why it is great, what you are suggesting tough, would crush the game in it’s sense of being a good mmo, since all good mmo’s have a decent reward structure. It’s what mmo’s are build uppon. One cannot keep players invested in a game for a super long time without goals to work for. So yeah i would quit if they would be stupid enough to destroy one of the core aspects of what makes mmo’s fun for me. Does that make me a fragile player? Hell no.
But I haven’t suggested anything that would remove goals from the game. Everything would still be there, and would still take time to earn. A few of the things at the very fringes of the reward structure would take slightly less time to earn (and they should), but the overwhelming majority of rewards would take as long, or longer, so I don’t see what your issue would be.
And sure. You can focus skins to one type of player who merely likes to have certain skins but then you miss the other portion of players who want a more sentimental specific reward for completing their loved task.
True, but I don’t think the “I want what I want” crowd should be held hostage to the “I want a memento of an event” crowd. I think that if the latter group wants rewards specific to that desire, then they should not be in the form of weapon and armor skins. They should be more along the lines of bundles and other items like that, transmute potions, skillbar transforming doo-dads like the Krytan Torch or Kites, stuff which may be fun and cool and unique to a certain setting, but are not permanent visual elements of the character. You would still be able to earn those skins via those same activities, just other people would also be able to earn them elsewhere.
If legendary weapons were easily accessible to every player then the whole point of these weapons would be gone – the reason for making them invalid.
While I don’t disagree with you that Legendaries currently fill those roles, I disagree that they have to. Those roles are not “the whole point of the weapon,” it is only a factor. People would still be rocking Dawns and Bifrosts and even Quips whether they were super rare or everyone got them in the mail one day. They are inherently interesting weapon skins, and people value them for their inherent quality.
Do people value them more because they are rare? Certainly. They would likely be about 10-50% of their current value if they could be achieved more easily, but they would still have value to people. I think that the systems around them should promote that you actually have to work to earn them, but they should not be designed to keep most players from ever having them. I think the current proposal is a solid idea, it just piles too many tasks onto the list.
I believe that if they are going to have “’ultimate goals’ for those hardcore players," then they should be goals that ONLY hardcore players would ever want to meet, something that ONLY serves the function of “this is a long term goal, and I completed it,” rather than something that anyone would want whether they cared about long term goals or not.
Legendary armor HAS to be in raids to create a incentive to do them raids are fun for their challenge but what’s even more fun is when you are rewarded for that work.
If that’s true, and I’m not necessarily saying that it isn’t, then Raids should not exist. If people wouldn’t do them without having Legendary armor in there then there is no reason to have them in the first place.
Please read my other post – some items have intrinsic value – value derived from the item itself while other items have value simply because it has value to other people.
Some items lose their value if others don’t find them valuable or desirable simply because their value and desirability derive from the owner’s awareness of the fact that his item is valued and desired by many others.
If these many others stop wanting said item then the item in itself is worthless to the owner.
Some items, yes. Most Legendaries do not fit this definition, however, so it’s relatively moot for the point of this discussion (including Moot).
How many people do you know that are happy with getting blue/green drops?
Getting blue green drops that they unlocked the skins for ages ago? Not very. Getting blue/greens that offer a new skin that they really like? People are still happy about that. I’m not talking about making Legendaries as common as blue/greens though, I’m not saying make them super super casual. I’m just saying that the current paths are like an “11,” maybe dial them back to an 8 or so, somewhere about halfway between where they are now, and Mawdry/Star of Gratitude. Maybe take the lists that currently exist, and instead of requiring 100% completion of them, only require 80% completion. Perhaps offer some special bonus if you do get 100% completion, like something that would help you shortcut the final creation process.
So for example, they loosely detailed the process to create the Pre for The Juggernaut, right? What if they made it so that to get the Precursor, you would only need to do 80% of the available goals. Then have a bonus objective, that if you complete 100% of the goals, you would also get a Vial of Quicksilver, the unique ingredient to the Juggernaut which would otherwise require a ton of molten lodestones and silver doubloons.
You said locking skins behind effort is bad but locking titles is fine. Once again this is an MMO, different people value different things, what about those who care about titles more then they do about skins?
I don’t believe such people actually exist in statistically significant numbers, and exist primarily as rhetorical tools in discussions such as this one.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
(edited by Ohoni.6057)
The in game store will never offer a means to obtain items for cash that will make your character more powerful than other characters. Oh, except you can now buy gold in the game, and all the best items can be made with items you can buy with gold!
Best items = best skins? How is having a better skin giving you an advantage over other players?
By the time you are level 80 you will have everything you need to be competitive with other players…..Unless you are a casual player, then you’ll never be able to compete with hardcore players. Unless….you buy gems to purchase the gold, to purchase the items to make you competitive…..
I’d agree if you talked about the masteries, but which items are you talking about? And I can excuse the mastery system because they added good horizontal progression that only applies to the expansion, so I don’t see it as a problem.
I am talking about the difference between exotic and ascended. I don’t care about legendaries. The guildwars wiki has a very easy to read chart to show the differences in stats. They are significant.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Weapon
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Armor
I like the mastery system. That’s exactly where Anet should be going. Individual rewards based on experience that can not be bought with cash.
While I don’t disagree with you that Legendaries currently fill those roles, I disagree that they have to. Those roles are not “the whole point of the weapon,” it is only a factor. People would still be rocking Dawns and Bifrosts and even Quips whether they were super rare or everyone got them in the mail one day. They are inherently interesting weapon skins, and people value them for their inherent quality.
True – because they do have a certain look or animation to them – but I believe the developers want Legendaries to fill that role – because if they don’t then what does? And you need that role to keep people playing – we can both agree on that I think.
Either these weapons or other things have to be these goals – these long-term super high-end things.
Also I have to contradict you on the “intrinsic value” stuff – A lot of people rock them because they’re best in slot and that in itself is value.
The themes of these weapons are so niche in some situations that I doubt many players would indeed use them if they weren’t associated with the buzzword “legendary” and with the somewhat prestigious idea of “best in slot” – even with the added animations.
Do people value them more because they are rare? Certainly. They would likely be about 10-50% of their current value if they could be achieved more easily, but they would still have value to people. I think that the systems around them should promote that you actually have to work to earn them, but they should not be designed to keep most players from ever having them. I think the current proposal is a solid idea, it just piles too many tasks onto the list.
Yes but if their value drops then the number of players motivated to stick to the game and make them drops proportionally – the less people want them the less people willing to play for them. The easier to get they are the less time people spend in game working on them.
Now what you want as a developer is people spending as much time as possible in your game and spending a lot of money on it too if possible.
I believe that if they are going to have “’ultimate goals’ for those hardcore players," then they should be goals that ONLY hardcore players would ever want to meet, something that ONLY serves the function of “this is a long term goal, and I completed it,” rather than something that anyone would want whether they cared about long term goals or not.
Still this does not change the fact that no matter what you put at the end of that “ultimate goal” challenge there will be non-hardcore people who will want it.
Also – the thing you put at the end there should be pretty shiny and exciting if you want to keep people motivated to play and work for it.
In 2015 gamers don’t really play something just so they can say “they did it” or have a title – they want a more tangible reward – and if you’re MMO can’t deliver that ( since MMO players are known to be this way even more so than other gamers) your players will move on to another MMO that can.
If that’s true, and I’m not necessarily saying that it isn’t, then Raids should not exist. If people wouldn’t do them without having Legendary armor in there then there is no reason to have them in the first place.
I don’t think you get how MMO players operate – they do not play the game for the gameplay but rather they play it for the rewards.
Gameplay is a secondary issue – it has to be good enough ( not broken, not buggy, up to the industry standard of the time) but is definitely not the core issue.
MMO players want items – they are to some extent greedy and want self-gratification in the form of “tangible” items that they can equip and feel better for having them.
Because these items are directly linked to your in-game avatar – they are presented to all those who meet you and whom you play with – whether they want to see them or not. Unlike leaderboards and achievements ( which people can just choose not to look at) these items stand out and give a statement of your gaming prowess to others – a statement they can not overlook or avoid.
Ultimately it’s a way of projecting your own power and greatness over another – which is a really big theme with human beings.
Some items, yes. Most Legendaries do not fit this definition, however, so it’s relatively moot for the point of this discussion (including Moot).
Yes – most legendary weapons don’t – and because of that please compare the cost of Twilight to the cost of Moot.
Please tell me how many Moots and how many Twilights have you seen in game?
I must have in my entire play time of 3000 hours almost seen under 10 moots. But Twilights? let’s be real.
The fact that others WANT Twilight and like it makes it appealing to people.
Even if you adjusted the numbers for the fact that one weapon is meta and the other isn’t – I’m still pretty sure the GS would win.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
True – because they do have a certain look or animation to them – but I believe the developers want Legendaries to fill that role – because if they don’t then what does? And you need that role to keep people playing – we can both agree on that I think.
I do not think that Legendaries “keep people playing.” They are a long term goal, people definitely go after them, but I don’t feel that they are a vital part of what keeps most people invested. I mean, plenty of players already have tons of Legendaries. Wooden Potatoes has like 5-6 of them at this point? I think it’s good to have long term goals, but they don’t need to be soooooo long term. They should be achievable by a reasonable person in a reasonable amount of time.
As I said, I don’t object to the Legendary paths as presented in principle, I just think that the one we were shown was way too long for what you get, just the Precursor that then requires a bunch of other stuff to finish off.
Also I have to contradict you on the “intrinsic value” stuff – A lot of people rock them because they’re best in slot and that in itself is value.
Nothing is “best in slot.” I mean, they are Ascended stats, but only slightly more convenient than a standard Ascended. It’s not as if they had a higher stat level. People want them for looks, not for gameplay advantage.
The themes of these weapons are so niche in some situations that I doubt many players would indeed use them if they weren’t associated with the buzzword “legendary” and with the somewhat prestigious idea of “best in slot” – even with the added animations.
I wouldn’t use them unless they fit. I have one Legendary, Dreamer. I rock it on my Thief because flaming death cluster unicorns. I wouldn’t bother getting Incinerator because I think it’s silly on a Thief. I wouldn’t get Quip for the same reasons. I don’t use Dreamer on my Ranger because it wouldn’t fit his style. The one I really want is Dawn, but even though most of my characters use GS in their builds, I doubt I’d skin it to all of them. I like my SAB sword on my Guard, and it would be a bit out of place on a Reaper.
Yes but if their value drops then the number of players motivated to stick to the game and make them drops proportionally – the less people want them the less people willing to play for them. The easier to get they are the less time people spend in game working on them.
I don’t think that’s true. I don’t think that most people seek them out because of their market value, but rather due to the value to that player of having the weapon he wants. I indicated that the market value would drop, but I don’t think because demand would drop in any way, it’s just that supply would rise, so you couldn’t justify the same high prices anymore.
I mean, even if every player in the game wants something, if almost everyone already has it you can’t really charge thousands of gold for it.
Now what you want as a developer is people spending as much time as possible in your game and spending a lot of money on it too if possible.
Yes, but it’s a balancing act, reliant on Google’s old slogan, “don’t be evil.” You want them to keep playing, but you don’t want to be exploitative in how you achieve that. Give them goals, but make them reasonable goals. You keep talking at me as if I’m saying “they should just have everything unlocked when you start,” which has never been my position. I believe in at least most of the same principles you do, I just think that the current options are a bit more grindy than they should be.
Still this does not change the fact that no matter what you put at the end of that “ultimate goal” challenge there will be non-hardcore people who will want it.
There shouldn’t be. I mean, there might be some people like that, but that just seems a character flaw on their part, to want something because other people have it, rather than because it’s a thing that they want. I don’t mind disappointing such people. Cool skins are different though, you can want them for your own reasons, that have nothing to do with the rarity or the prestige value. That’s why I believe such items should not be gated to create artificial scarcity or prestige.
I don’t think you get how MMO players operate – they do not play the game for the gameplay but rather they play it for the rewards.
Then there shouldn’t be raids. If players are just playing for the rewards, then just give them the rewards. Don’t lock them behind content that most players are uninterested in, and then use the rewards to bribe them into playing it anyway. There should be rewards, but rewards should be for doing content that you already want to be doing. If there is content that people would not do without rewards above and beyond the general balance, then that is content not worth developing.
Don’t get me wrong, I think raids should obviously give rewards for completion, and the quantity of those rewards should be higher than other content, enough that the time you spend in the attempt is not worse-spent than doing other things, but it should be a matter of receiving a fair wage for a job well done, players should not go into it because of the loot.
Because these items are directly linked to your in-game avatar – they are presented to all those who meet you and whom you play with – whether they want to see them or not. Unlike leaderboards and achievements ( which people can just choose not to look at) these items stand out and give a statement of your gaming prowess to others – a statement they can not overlook or avoid.
And people who care about such a thing are sad, and should not be encouraged. But even that aside, bundles can accomplish that same task, if you want to show off that you did something fancy, run around town waving a fancy glowing “Trophy of Better Than You” and they will know full well how low your self esteem is, without having to lock up cool weapon and armor skins to do it.
Yes – most legendary weapons don’t – and because of that please compare the cost of Twilight to the cost of Moot.
Please tell me how many Moots and how many Twilights have you seen in game?
Exactly my point. The Intrinsic value of Twilight is what matters, not the perceived rarity of it. Not as many people run around with Moot. since its intrinsic value is lower, for having a visual that is less appealing to most, and attached to a weapon that most players do not use. Although I couldn’t tell you how many Twilights I’ve seen relative to Dawns or Dusks, I can’t tell them apart.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
You’re confusing “Grinding is not fun” with “Anything not fun is grind”.
Both statements are true.
So bending over to pick up a $100 bill found on the sidewalk one time is a grind because it isn’t actually fun?
Sorry but the term grind requires repetition, usually monotonous, in this context:
“Digital Technology. (in a video game) to perform a monotonous task repeatedly in order to advance a character to a higher level or rank:
You have to grind for hours before you can embark on the main story mission.”
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/grind
“A word used in any MMO representing the repetitive actions taken in order to make the character stronger. "
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Grind
?“difficult or ?unpleasant ?activity that is ?tiring or ?repeated too often:”
“a ?difficult or ?boring ?activity that ?needs a lot of ?effort: "
You’re confusing “Grinding is not fun” with “Anything not fun is grind”.
Both statements are true.
So bending over to pick up a $100 bill found on the sidewalk one time is a grind because it isn’t actually fun?
Sorry but the term grind requires repetition, usually monotonous, in this context:
“Digital Technology. (in a video game) to perform a monotonous task repeatedly in order to advance a character to a higher level or rank:
You have to grind for hours before you can embark on the main story mission.”http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/grind
“A word used in any MMO representing the repetitive actions taken in order to make the character stronger. "
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Grind
?“difficult or ?unpleasant ?activity that is ?tiring or ?repeated too often:”
“a ?difficult or ?boring ?activity that ?needs a lot of ?effort: "
Question!
Does anyone see Hearts by their design as a ‘Grind’? If so, could you explain why they are or are not a ‘Grind’, and examine the similarities and differences between doing Heart Activities and doing everything in the Magumma Jungle?
I just want to steer the conversation back to the topic.
Suicidal Warrior.
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”
Finding 100 bucks on the ground is fun man. It happens so rarely and the reward is so extreme that it is a thrilling experience. Reaching into your pocket and finding lint is not fun because it is a common occurrence and lint kind of sucks.
Similarly, killing a monster and getting an awesome reward is really fun. Killing the same monster 200 times to get 40 bottles blood is not fun.
No, no, I like where we’re going with this “no-grind” concept. Let’s give everyone full access to everything right off the bat, make ’em max level, outfit all characters with complete sets of Legendary gear, and see what happens.
:-)
lol, or how about, engage people with an exciting and complex story. Drive the action with interesting and varied encounters. Allow them impactful and epic choices, and at the end give them something that is appropriate for the time spent and also enhances the player’s enjoyment of the experience.
This lies in stark contrast with, let’s give players the option to kill the same mob a thousand times to increase the time required to get an interesting item.
lol, or how about, engage people with an exciting and complex story. Drive the action with interesting and varied encounters. Allow them impactful and epic choices, and at the end give them something that is appropriate for the time spent and also enhances the player’s enjoyment of the experience.
This lies in stark contrast with, let’s give players the option to kill the same mob a thousand times to increase the time required to get an interesting item.
You don’t even get that with SWTOR and they spent half a billion. With a B.
Baby, lemme tell ya – I’d LOVE for new content every day. Love it. But that means either lowballing the hell out of the creative minds that come up with new worlds out of thin air or paying out the nose (and probably other orifices) to get it.
Maybe you don’t have a problem with that. You certainly wouldn’t be in the minority there, would you? But some people just have a better understanding of the economics behind a game.
Of course, all of this brings to mind a new question – have you REALLY gone through all of the content this game has to offer yet? Maybe it’s just time for a new game for ya, buddy.
lol, or how about, engage people with an exciting and complex story. Drive the action with interesting and varied encounters. Allow them impactful and epic choices, and at the end give them something that is appropriate for the time spent and also enhances the player’s enjoyment of the experience.
Love the idea. Would play it. What would we do the second week or month?
lol, or how about, engage people with an exciting and complex story. Drive the action with interesting and varied encounters. Allow them impactful and epic choices, and at the end give them something that is appropriate for the time spent and also enhances the player’s enjoyment of the experience.
Love the idea. Would play it. What would we do the second week or month?
Why, play it again of course! For the same rewards and everything.
You can’t add different rewards because then that would FORCE people to play a second time, thus making it a GRIND. And we can’t have that.
lol, or how about, engage people with an exciting and complex story. Drive the action with interesting and varied encounters. Allow them impactful and epic choices, and at the end give them something that is appropriate for the time spent and also enhances the player’s enjoyment of the experience.
This lies in stark contrast with, let’s give players the option to kill the same mob a thousand times to increase the time required to get an interesting item.
You don’t even get that with SWTOR and they spent half a billion. With a B.
Baby, lemme tell ya – I’d LOVE for new content every day. Love it. But that means either lowballing the hell out of the creative minds that come up with new worlds out of thin air or paying out the nose (and probably other orifices) to get it.
Maybe you don’t have a problem with that. You certainly wouldn’t be in the minority there, would you? But some people just have a better understanding of the economics behind a game.
Of course, all of this brings to mind a new question – have you REALLY gone through all of the content this game has to offer yet? Maybe it’s just time for a new game for ya, buddy.
We got 2 living chapter stories over 3 years. 500 million isn’t necessary to tell a good story. Nor is it necessary for decent balancing between grind and gameplay. It’s true, there are some peole who will never be happy no matter how much a game company gives. However that isn’t the majority of gamers. I and many of Anet’s customers I am sure would be happy if they gave an equivalent value for 50 dollars as we received for the core game. As there are no new races, a much smaller set of maps, a shorter campaign, and only one new profession, Anet should ackowledge this lak of comparable product by offering people more. Give them gems, enhanced benefits, etc… It costs them nothing as they are virtual goods, and would assuage those of us who know that they are being shortchanged.
lol, or how about, engage people with an exciting and complex story. Drive the action with interesting and varied encounters. Allow them impactful and epic choices, and at the end give them something that is appropriate for the time spent and also enhances the player’s enjoyment of the experience.
This lies in stark contrast with, let’s give players the option to kill the same mob a thousand times to increase the time required to get an interesting item.
You don’t even get that with SWTOR and they spent half a billion. With a B.
Baby, lemme tell ya – I’d LOVE for new content every day. Love it. But that means either lowballing the hell out of the creative minds that come up with new worlds out of thin air or paying out the nose (and probably other orifices) to get it.
Maybe you don’t have a problem with that. You certainly wouldn’t be in the minority there, would you? But some people just have a better understanding of the economics behind a game.
Of course, all of this brings to mind a new question – have you REALLY gone through all of the content this game has to offer yet? Maybe it’s just time for a new game for ya, buddy.
We got 2 living chapter stories over 3 years. 500 million isn’t necessary to tell a good story. Nor is it necessary for decent balancing between grind and gameplay. It’s true, there are some peole who will never be happy no matter how much a game company gives. However that isn’t the majority of gamers. I and many of Anet’s customers I am sure would be happy if they gave an equivalent value for 50 dollars as we received for the core game. As there are no new races, a much smaller set of maps, a shorter campaign, and only one new profession, Anet should ackowledge this lak of comparable product by offering people more. Give them gems, enhanced benefits, etc… It costs them nothing as they are virtual goods, and would assuage those of us who know that they are being shortchanged.
So, because you didn’t get a whole new game, you feel you are due gems and unnamed “enhanced benefits”.
Do I have that correct? Because that’s what it looks like you’re saying, and if that’s the case I just can’t take such a viewpoint seriously. XD
I am taking the view that a responsible company takes their paying customers seriously and treats them with respect and appreciation. It is the moral and right thing to do, but in addition in also ensures customer loyalty for many more years.
lol, or how about, engage people with an exciting and complex story. Drive the action with interesting and varied encounters. Allow them impactful and epic choices, and at the end give them something that is appropriate for the time spent and also enhances the player’s enjoyment of the experience.
This lies in stark contrast with, let’s give players the option to kill the same mob a thousand times to increase the time required to get an interesting item.
You don’t even get that with SWTOR and they spent half a billion. With a B.
Baby, lemme tell ya – I’d LOVE for new content every day. Love it. But that means either lowballing the hell out of the creative minds that come up with new worlds out of thin air or paying out the nose (and probably other orifices) to get it.
Maybe you don’t have a problem with that. You certainly wouldn’t be in the minority there, would you? But some people just have a better understanding of the economics behind a game.
Of course, all of this brings to mind a new question – have you REALLY gone through all of the content this game has to offer yet? Maybe it’s just time for a new game for ya, buddy.
We got 2 living chapter stories over 3 years. 500 million isn’t necessary to tell a good story. Nor is it necessary for decent balancing between grind and gameplay. It’s true, there are some peole who will never be happy no matter how much a game company gives. However that isn’t the majority of gamers. I and many of Anet’s customers I am sure would be happy if they gave an equivalent value for 50 dollars as we received for the core game. As there are no new races, a much smaller set of maps, a shorter campaign, and only one new profession, Anet should ackowledge this lak of comparable product by offering people more. Give them gems, enhanced benefits, etc… It costs them nothing as they are virtual goods, and would assuage those of us who know that they are being shortchanged.
So, because you didn’t get a whole new game, you feel you are due gems and unnamed “enhanced benefits”.
Do I have that correct? Because that’s what it looks like you’re saying, and if that’s the case I just can’t take such a viewpoint seriously. XD
Its not unreasonable to expect or at least to desire value for one’s money comparable to what one has received in the past.
Anet established the exchange rate in terms of what one gets when one spends $x on a GW2 release. If the new release does not measure up to that exchange rate it is reasonable for a discerning customer to ask for more.
Of course Anet has the option to decide that the new release represents a revision of the exchange rate. At that point it is up to the customer to decide if he is willing to buy into the new rate or perhaps wait until the passage of time leads to a lowered price for the new content. In theory, by waiting for multiple expansions to be released before purchasing a, a customer has the potential to actually exceed the original content to price exchange rate.
People that make posts like this have not separated the difference between grinding out content and playing the game. Until they do, there is no discussion here worth having. If some of the elements are objectionable to you, then not doing those things is worth more to you than owning the loot it leads to; simple. If that game model doesn’t work for you, you should consider quitting.
Ohoni, you should have never had any hope; your model for rewards doesn’t fit the concept of GW2 as a game. Anyone that thought crafting the precursor was going to be ‘better’ than how you get it now was being delusional. Many of us told you this years ago. JS now confirmed it. Stop lying to yourself.
Lying is a strong term but one I’m more likely to direct at Anet where precursor crafting/hunt are concerned.
Pre crafting was a MAJOR addition to this expansion and the number one addition I wanted. I’ve been waiting for it since launch and since it was announced as in the works since 2013 (with the original game not Xpac).
Do I mind grinding for a pre? No, I expected one, but a massive gold sink and grind? Kitten.
Buy To Play Guild Wars 2 2012-2015 – RIP
Unlucky since launch, RNG isn’t random
PugLife SoloQ
Unlucky since launch, RNG isn’t random
PugLife SoloQ
lol, or how about, engage people with an exciting and complex story. Drive the action with interesting and varied encounters. Allow them impactful and epic choices, and at the end give them something that is appropriate for the time spent and also enhances the player’s enjoyment of the experience.
This lies in stark contrast with, let’s give players the option to kill the same mob a thousand times to increase the time required to get an interesting item.
You don’t even get that with SWTOR and they spent half a billion. With a B.
Baby, lemme tell ya – I’d LOVE for new content every day. Love it. But that means either lowballing the hell out of the creative minds that come up with new worlds out of thin air or paying out the nose (and probably other orifices) to get it.
Maybe you don’t have a problem with that. You certainly wouldn’t be in the minority there, would you? But some people just have a better understanding of the economics behind a game.
Of course, all of this brings to mind a new question – have you REALLY gone through all of the content this game has to offer yet? Maybe it’s just time for a new game for ya, buddy.
We got 2 living chapter stories over 3 years. 500 million isn’t necessary to tell a good story. Nor is it necessary for decent balancing between grind and gameplay. It’s true, there are some peole who will never be happy no matter how much a game company gives. However that isn’t the majority of gamers. I and many of Anet’s customers I am sure would be happy if they gave an equivalent value for 50 dollars as we received for the core game. As there are no new races, a much smaller set of maps, a shorter campaign, and only one new profession, Anet should ackowledge this lak of comparable product by offering people more. Give them gems, enhanced benefits, etc… It costs them nothing as they are virtual goods, and would assuage those of us who know that they are being shortchanged.
So, because you didn’t get a whole new game, you feel you are due gems and unnamed “enhanced benefits”.
Do I have that correct? Because that’s what it looks like you’re saying, and if that’s the case I just can’t take such a viewpoint seriously. XD
Its not unreasonable to expect or at least to desire value for one’s money comparable to what one has received in the past.
Anet established the exchange rate in terms of what one gets when one spends $x on a GW2 release. If the new release does not measure up to that exchange rate it is reasonable for a discerning customer to ask for more.
Of course Anet has the option to decide that the new release represents a revision of the exchange rate. At that point it is up to the customer to decide if he is willing to buy into the new rate or perhaps wait until the passage of time leads to a lowered price for the new content. In theory, by waiting for multiple expansions to be released before purchasing a, a customer has the potential to actually exceed the original content to price exchange rate.
Okay, so the outrage then is over not getting a game the size of GW2 for the price of the expansion.
Of course, that begs the next question: If you bought this and weren’t happy with the amount of content, why did you buy it in the first place?
(Alternative: If you didn’t buy it, why the complaints?)
I am taking the view that a responsible company takes their paying customers seriously and treats them with respect and appreciation. It is the moral and right thing to do, but in addition in also ensures customer loyalty for many more years.
So. Considered entering politics?
Don’t worry, baby. I won’t be taking you seriously in the future. ;-)
lol, or how about, engage people with an exciting and complex story. Drive the action with interesting and varied encounters. Allow them impactful and epic choices, and at the end give them something that is appropriate for the time spent and also enhances the player’s enjoyment of the experience.
This lies in stark contrast with, let’s give players the option to kill the same mob a thousand times to increase the time required to get an interesting item.
You don’t even get that with SWTOR and they spent half a billion. With a B.
Baby, lemme tell ya – I’d LOVE for new content every day. Love it. But that means either lowballing the hell out of the creative minds that come up with new worlds out of thin air or paying out the nose (and probably other orifices) to get it.
Maybe you don’t have a problem with that. You certainly wouldn’t be in the minority there, would you? But some people just have a better understanding of the economics behind a game.
Of course, all of this brings to mind a new question – have you REALLY gone through all of the content this game has to offer yet? Maybe it’s just time for a new game for ya, buddy.
We got 2 living chapter stories over 3 years. 500 million isn’t necessary to tell a good story. Nor is it necessary for decent balancing between grind and gameplay. It’s true, there are some peole who will never be happy no matter how much a game company gives. However that isn’t the majority of gamers. I and many of Anet’s customers I am sure would be happy if they gave an equivalent value for 50 dollars as we received for the core game. As there are no new races, a much smaller set of maps, a shorter campaign, and only one new profession, Anet should ackowledge this lak of comparable product by offering people more. Give them gems, enhanced benefits, etc… It costs them nothing as they are virtual goods, and would assuage those of us who know that they are being shortchanged.
So, because you didn’t get a whole new game, you feel you are due gems and unnamed “enhanced benefits”.
Do I have that correct? Because that’s what it looks like you’re saying, and if that’s the case I just can’t take such a viewpoint seriously. XD
Its not unreasonable to expect or at least to desire value for one’s money comparable to what one has received in the past.
Anet established the exchange rate in terms of what one gets when one spends $x on a GW2 release. If the new release does not measure up to that exchange rate it is reasonable for a discerning customer to ask for more.
Of course Anet has the option to decide that the new release represents a revision of the exchange rate. At that point it is up to the customer to decide if he is willing to buy into the new rate or perhaps wait until the passage of time leads to a lowered price for the new content. In theory, by waiting for multiple expansions to be released before purchasing a, a customer has the potential to actually exceed the original content to price exchange rate.
Okay, so the outrage then is over not getting a game the size of GW2 for the price of the expansion.
Of course, that begs the next question: If you bought this and weren’t happy with the amount of content, why did you buy it in the first place?
(Alternative: If you didn’t buy it, why the complaints?)
Pre-purchasing, particularly before details on the product to be purchased has been fully revealed is such a bad idea.
Then there are those who want more of GW2, want to buy an expansion, are potentially devoted to the IP, but who think that Anet is under-delivering for the price.
lol, or how about, engage people with an exciting and complex story. Drive the action with interesting and varied encounters. Allow them impactful and epic choices, and at the end give them something that is appropriate for the time spent and also enhances the player’s enjoyment of the experience.
This lies in stark contrast with, let’s give players the option to kill the same mob a thousand times to increase the time required to get an interesting item.
You don’t even get that with SWTOR and they spent half a billion. With a B.
Baby, lemme tell ya – I’d LOVE for new content every day. Love it. But that means either lowballing the hell out of the creative minds that come up with new worlds out of thin air or paying out the nose (and probably other orifices) to get it.
Maybe you don’t have a problem with that. You certainly wouldn’t be in the minority there, would you? But some people just have a better understanding of the economics behind a game.
Of course, all of this brings to mind a new question – have you REALLY gone through all of the content this game has to offer yet? Maybe it’s just time for a new game for ya, buddy.
We got 2 living chapter stories over 3 years. 500 million isn’t necessary to tell a good story. Nor is it necessary for decent balancing between grind and gameplay. It’s true, there are some peole who will never be happy no matter how much a game company gives. However that isn’t the majority of gamers. I and many of Anet’s customers I am sure would be happy if they gave an equivalent value for 50 dollars as we received for the core game. As there are no new races, a much smaller set of maps, a shorter campaign, and only one new profession, Anet should ackowledge this lak of comparable product by offering people more. Give them gems, enhanced benefits, etc… It costs them nothing as they are virtual goods, and would assuage those of us who know that they are being shortchanged.
So, because you didn’t get a whole new game, you feel you are due gems and unnamed “enhanced benefits”.
Do I have that correct? Because that’s what it looks like you’re saying, and if that’s the case I just can’t take such a viewpoint seriously. XD
Its not unreasonable to expect or at least to desire value for one’s money comparable to what one has received in the past.
Anet established the exchange rate in terms of what one gets when one spends $x on a GW2 release. If the new release does not measure up to that exchange rate it is reasonable for a discerning customer to ask for more.
Of course Anet has the option to decide that the new release represents a revision of the exchange rate. At that point it is up to the customer to decide if he is willing to buy into the new rate or perhaps wait until the passage of time leads to a lowered price for the new content. In theory, by waiting for multiple expansions to be released before purchasing a, a customer has the potential to actually exceed the original content to price exchange rate.
Okay, so the outrage then is over not getting a game the size of GW2 for the price of the expansion.
Of course, that begs the next question: If you bought this and weren’t happy with the amount of content, why did you buy it in the first place?
(Alternative: If you didn’t buy it, why the complaints?)
Pre-purchasing, particularly before details on the product to be purchased has been fully revealed is such a bad idea.
Then there are those who want more of GW2, want to buy an expansion, are potentially devoted to the IP, but who think that Anet is under-delivering for the price.
Then don’t buy it? I mean, really, if your problem here is that you’re too much of a fan of the company to avoid giving them money for something you don’t like, then I don’t know if ANYONE can help you.
lol, or how about, engage people with an exciting and complex story. Drive the action with interesting and varied encounters. Allow them impactful and epic choices, and at the end give them something that is appropriate for the time spent and also enhances the player’s enjoyment of the experience.
This lies in stark contrast with, let’s give players the option to kill the same mob a thousand times to increase the time required to get an interesting item.
You don’t even get that with SWTOR and they spent half a billion. With a B.
Baby, lemme tell ya – I’d LOVE for new content every day. Love it. But that means either lowballing the hell out of the creative minds that come up with new worlds out of thin air or paying out the nose (and probably other orifices) to get it.
Maybe you don’t have a problem with that. You certainly wouldn’t be in the minority there, would you? But some people just have a better understanding of the economics behind a game.
Of course, all of this brings to mind a new question – have you REALLY gone through all of the content this game has to offer yet? Maybe it’s just time for a new game for ya, buddy.
We got 2 living chapter stories over 3 years. 500 million isn’t necessary to tell a good story. Nor is it necessary for decent balancing between grind and gameplay. It’s true, there are some peole who will never be happy no matter how much a game company gives. However that isn’t the majority of gamers. I and many of Anet’s customers I am sure would be happy if they gave an equivalent value for 50 dollars as we received for the core game. As there are no new races, a much smaller set of maps, a shorter campaign, and only one new profession, Anet should ackowledge this lak of comparable product by offering people more. Give them gems, enhanced benefits, etc… It costs them nothing as they are virtual goods, and would assuage those of us who know that they are being shortchanged.
So, because you didn’t get a whole new game, you feel you are due gems and unnamed “enhanced benefits”.
Do I have that correct? Because that’s what it looks like you’re saying, and if that’s the case I just can’t take such a viewpoint seriously. XD
Its not unreasonable to expect or at least to desire value for one’s money comparable to what one has received in the past.
Anet established the exchange rate in terms of what one gets when one spends $x on a GW2 release. If the new release does not measure up to that exchange rate it is reasonable for a discerning customer to ask for more.
Of course Anet has the option to decide that the new release represents a revision of the exchange rate. At that point it is up to the customer to decide if he is willing to buy into the new rate or perhaps wait until the passage of time leads to a lowered price for the new content. In theory, by waiting for multiple expansions to be released before purchasing a, a customer has the potential to actually exceed the original content to price exchange rate.
Okay, so the outrage then is over not getting a game the size of GW2 for the price of the expansion.
Of course, that begs the next question: If you bought this and weren’t happy with the amount of content, why did you buy it in the first place?
(Alternative: If you didn’t buy it, why the complaints?)
Pre-purchasing, particularly before details on the product to be purchased has been fully revealed is such a bad idea.
Then there are those who want more of GW2, want to buy an expansion, are potentially devoted to the IP, but who think that Anet is under-delivering for the price.
Then don’t buy it? I mean, really, if your problem here is that you’re too much of a fan of the company to avoid giving them money for something you don’t like, then I don’t know if ANYONE can help you.
My problem?
Care to point out where I said I had a problem?
I merely pointed out how I can imagine why some people have an issue with HoT.
Personally I am not buying it. No outrage just not much of anything of interest to me in this expansion. Perhaps the next will be more to my liking. My primary interest in these threads is the possibility that the reception and discussion of the elements of this expansion might shape the next.
So bending over to pick up a $100 bill found on the sidewalk one time is a grind because it isn’t actually fun?
Yeah, although to most people it would be fairly minimal grind, not worth worrying about. Minimal difficulty, minimal duration. Now, if the task to pick up the $100 bill was to climb down a cliff face that would take several hours and be extremely stressful, then that would be more significant grind. Both would be some degree of grind though, just as climbing the cliff and climbing a single stair step would both be “climbing.”
Sorry but the term grind requires repetition, usually monotonous, in this context:
That’s the more limited definition, but it’s a relatively new word and the official sources haven’t exactly caught up yet. Still, even by the definition you use, most of the things being discussed would qualify as grind, requiring you to repeatedly perform similar tasks.
No, no, I like where we’re going with this “no-grind” concept. Let’s give everyone full access to everything right off the bat, make ’em max level, outfit all characters with complete sets of Legendary gear, and see what happens.
I don’t think that would be a good idea. It’s important to have rewards in the game, and to make people earn it. You just have to maintain a reasonable balance in how much work you require of them, so that it doesn’t roll over into tedium.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
lol, or how about, engage people with an exciting and complex story. Drive the action with interesting and varied encounters. Allow them impactful and epic choices, and at the end give them something that is appropriate for the time spent and also enhances the player’s enjoyment of the experience.
This lies in stark contrast with, let’s give players the option to kill the same mob a thousand times to increase the time required to get an interesting item.
You don’t even get that with SWTOR and they spent half a billion. With a B.
Baby, lemme tell ya – I’d LOVE for new content every day. Love it. But that means either lowballing the hell out of the creative minds that come up with new worlds out of thin air or paying out the nose (and probably other orifices) to get it.
Maybe you don’t have a problem with that. You certainly wouldn’t be in the minority there, would you? But some people just have a better understanding of the economics behind a game.
Of course, all of this brings to mind a new question – have you REALLY gone through all of the content this game has to offer yet? Maybe it’s just time for a new game for ya, buddy.
We got 2 living chapter stories over 3 years. 500 million isn’t necessary to tell a good story. Nor is it necessary for decent balancing between grind and gameplay. It’s true, there are some peole who will never be happy no matter how much a game company gives. However that isn’t the majority of gamers. I and many of Anet’s customers I am sure would be happy if they gave an equivalent value for 50 dollars as we received for the core game. As there are no new races, a much smaller set of maps, a shorter campaign, and only one new profession, Anet should ackowledge this lak of comparable product by offering people more. Give them gems, enhanced benefits, etc… It costs them nothing as they are virtual goods, and would assuage those of us who know that they are being shortchanged.
So, because you didn’t get a whole new game, you feel you are due gems and unnamed “enhanced benefits”.
Do I have that correct? Because that’s what it looks like you’re saying, and if that’s the case I just can’t take such a viewpoint seriously. XD
Its not unreasonable to expect or at least to desire value for one’s money comparable to what one has received in the past.
Anet established the exchange rate in terms of what one gets when one spends $x on a GW2 release. If the new release does not measure up to that exchange rate it is reasonable for a discerning customer to ask for more.
Of course Anet has the option to decide that the new release represents a revision of the exchange rate. At that point it is up to the customer to decide if he is willing to buy into the new rate or perhaps wait until the passage of time leads to a lowered price for the new content. In theory, by waiting for multiple expansions to be released before purchasing a, a customer has the potential to actually exceed the original content to price exchange rate.
Okay, so the outrage then is over not getting a game the size of GW2 for the price of the expansion.
Of course, that begs the next question: If you bought this and weren’t happy with the amount of content, why did you buy it in the first place?
(Alternative: If you didn’t buy it, why the complaints?)
Pre-purchasing, particularly before details on the product to be purchased has been fully revealed is such a bad idea.
Then there are those who want more of GW2, want to buy an expansion, are potentially devoted to the IP, but who think that Anet is under-delivering for the price.
Then don’t buy it? I mean, really, if your problem here is that you’re too much of a fan of the company to avoid giving them money for something you don’t like, then I don’t know if ANYONE can help you.
My problem?
Care to point out where I said I had a problem?
I merely pointed out how I can imagine why some people have an issue with HoT.
Personally I am not buying it. No outrage just not much of anything of interest to me in this expansion. Perhaps the next will be more to my liking. My primary interest in these threads is the possibility that the reception and discussion of the elements of this expansion might shape the next.
Listening to some of the “complaints”, I can’t say I share your hope in that regard.
Actually no it is not a new word.
Official sources such as the Cambridge English dictionary (as quoted)?
And really…bending at the waist ONCE is a grind?
Actually no it is not a new word.
Official sources such as the Cambridge English dictionary (as quoted)?
And really…bending at the waist ONCE is a grind?
Yes, but again, and I cannot possibly stress this enough, a minor grind. You asked if it was a grind, and it is. If you had asked a different question, like “but would that make doing the task not worth the reward?” then of course not, it would definitely be worth it. Still, the bending over to pick it up would be a grind, and the activity would have been better without the bending over portion.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Actually no it is not a new word.
Official sources such as the Cambridge English dictionary (as quoted)?
And really…bending at the waist ONCE is a grind?
Yes, but again, and I cannot possibly stress this enough, a minor grind. You asked if it was a grind, and it is. If you had asked a different question, like “but would that make doing the task not worth the reward?” then of course not, it would definitely be worth it. Still, the bending over to pick it up would be a grind, and the activity would have been better without the bending over portion.
Can you provide links to sources that claim that performing an action once, perhaps even once in a lifetime, is, “grind?”
Multiple dictionaries contradict your definition and I have never seen anyone else, any expert source, lay claim to a definition that matches yours.
Can you provide links to sources that claim that performing an action once, perhaps even once in a lifetime, is, “grind?”
Multiple dictionaries contradict your definition and I have never seen anyone else, any expert source, lay claim to a definition that matches yours.
/sigh. Life on the Internet in a nutshell.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
I just want to point out that some of you are saying that a grind is doing the same thing over and over and over to get to the end result. If the math in this topic is even remotely accurate – https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Gift-of-Maguuma-by-the-numbers – then yes that IS a grind.
Repeating the same events almost 4000 times is very grindy, especially for a game that is supposed to be on the more casual side and that is by your own descriptions/examples of what a “grind” is.
I am not saying grind is bad, nor am I saying it’s not needed but to claim outright that it is not in anyways grindy is not true.
Also, IMHO it’s not a great idea to compare this to other MMOs in the vein of “That one has so much for grind for x, y, z reasons, so this is no grind” because this game isn’t intended to be like other games. You should compare it in its own right. That is, what is this game trying to do? Does it successfully do that? If yes, great! If not, how can they improve? Just because one isn’t as bad as another, doesn’t mean either are good.
Anyways I suspect that many will disagree with me but I don’t mean to step on anyone’s toes. This is just my opinion on this topic. Feel free to correct me if need be. Thanks for reading!
Can you provide links to sources that claim that performing an action once, perhaps even once in a lifetime, is, “grind?”
Multiple dictionaries contradict your definition and I have never seen anyone else, any expert source, lay claim to a definition that matches yours.
/sigh. Life on the Internet in a nutshell.
You would have the same discussion in a library.
It’s just information. Internet or not.
Surely you can see how useless it is to be the only person on the world to call an apple, a pear.
Ironically. You can petition at the dictionary companies to change the definition.
“It isn’t working!” CL4P-TP
Ingame Name: Guardian Erik
Ingame Name: Guardian Erik
I do not think that Legendaries “keep people playing.” They are a long term goal, people definitely go after them, but I don’t feel that they are a vital part of what keeps most people invested. I mean, plenty of players already have tons of Legendaries. Wooden Potatoes has like 5-6 of them at this point? I think it’s good to have long term goals, but they don’t need to be soooooo long term. They should be achievable by a reasonable person in a reasonable amount of time.
First of all let’s keep WP out of this – he literally lives off his GW2 videos so I don’t consider him a good example.
It took me 6 months after release to make my first legendary -and I wasn’t trying for it – that isn’t reasonable?
As I said, I don’t object to the Legendary paths as presented in principle, I just think that the one we were shown was way too long for what you get, just the Precursor that then requires a bunch of other stuff to finish off.
Except we have no idea how it works in play – how long it actually takes to build it.
And it certainly will be longer than it is now – where if you have the money it will take you less than one hour to build it by buying stuff off the TP.
Nothing is “best in slot.” I mean, they are Ascended stats, but only slightly more convenient than a standard Ascended. It’s not as if they had a higher stat level. People want them for looks, not for gameplay advantage.
The developers actually described legendary weapons as “best in slot” stating that they will be the best tier of weapons regardless of how many other tiers are added if they decided going that way – so they are best in slot.
I don’t think that’s true. I don’t think that most people seek them out because of their market value, but rather due to the value to that player of having the weapon he wants. I indicated that the market value would drop, but I don’t think because demand would drop in any way, it’s just that supply would rise, so you couldn’t justify the same high prices anymore.
Fair – but if supply rises then demand drops – as more people obtain what they wanted and their demand for said item disappears. What’s to keep them invested and farming away if they already have all the stuff they want?
As a game developer you always want to have that one thing that the player is chasing – that one carrot on a stick – if you run out of these players will stop chasing and move on.
I mean, even if every player in the game wants something, if almost everyone already has it you can’t really charge thousands of gold for it.
Except there are people who won’t want things because others have it – I understand this is a difficult concept to grasp because we’re very different but look at this way.
I’m on the fence about making The Juggernaut – if it was really super rare and only a few had it and people wanted it and considered it awesome and rare I would make it. The way it is now – I won’t – because everyone has it. Or at least too many do – its worth to me drops below the point where I would want to make it.
Yes, but it’s a balancing act, reliant on Google’s old slogan, “don’t be evil.” You want them to keep playing, but you don’t want to be exploitative in how you achieve that. Give them goals, but make them reasonable goals. You keep talking at me as if I’m saying “they should just have everything unlocked when you start,” which has never been my position. I believe in at least most of the same principles you do, I just think that the current options are a bit more grindy than they should be.
Look at the state of the game for the last 2 years – people have been complaining a lot about nothing to do – nothing to work towards.
There shouldn’t be. I mean, there might be some people like that, but that just seems a character flaw on their part, to want something because other people have it, rather than because it’s a thing that they want. I don’t mind disappointing such people. Cool skins are different though, you can want them for your own reasons, that have nothing to do with the rarity or the prestige value. That’s why I believe such items should not be gated to create artificial scarcity or prestige.
You do realize how many people work this way? There are WHOLE industries based on this.
Then there shouldn’t be raids. If players are just playing for the rewards, then just give them the rewards. Don’t lock them behind content that most players are uninterested in, and then use the rewards to bribe them into playing it anyway. There should be rewards, but rewards should be for doing content that you already want to be doing. If there is content that people would not do without rewards above and beyond the general balance, then that is content not worth developing.
Sorry but that’s exactly how MMOs work – you want this item? Do this thing for 50 hours regardless of whether you like it or not and you’ll get it.
If they straight-up gave us legendary armor then how do they keep people in the game?
There will be dozens upon dozens and hundreds of hours players will sink into raids to get that armor – that’s time Anet is profiting off the fact that you are in game – even if you’re not spending in the gem store you’re creating materials, consuming consumables (lol) and acting as an NPC to other players who might be spending money in the gem store.
You might not consider this content to be “worth developing” but this method works.
Look at WvW season 1 – when they announced “super special secret reward at the end” – how many non-WvW players flooded WvW in order to farm their achievements and get that reward – and they didn’t even know what it was – they didn’t know if they would want it or not – but the fear of missing out motivated them.
The sheer numbers alone forced regular WvW ( long before EOTM) into a karm-train state and it didn’t stop until after about 2 weeks when most PvE players had finished their farm.
I was one of them – and it worked.
Don’t get me wrong, I think raids should obviously give rewards for completion, and the quantity of those rewards should be higher than other content, enough that the time you spend in the attempt is not worse-spent than doing other things, but it should be a matter of receiving a fair wage for a job well done, players should not go into it because of the loot.
So what will keep people doing raids let’s say a year or two from now if they’ve already done them a couple of times – mastered them and proved to themselves they can do it.
PvE gameplay doesn’t have staying power because the AI is designed to be weak and beatable. So the artificial staying power is created by adding desirable rewards for X number of times you complete the content.
And people who care about such a thing are sad, and should not be encouraged. But even that aside, bundles can accomplish that same task, if you want to show off that you did something fancy, run around town waving a fancy glowing “Trophy of Better Than You” and they will know full well how low your self esteem is, without having to lock up cool weapon and armor skins to do it.
This is a personal opinion of yours – and it is irrelevant – these people are many and they have money to spend and time to put in the game.
Bundles don’t work like that because our society has ingrained certain values into us : armor is cool – weapons are cool – bundles are not.
Nobody wants to have the legendary bundle of dragon slaying – you want the sword.
Nobody wants the mythical bundle of fear and destruction – they want the armor.
They want items that are traditionally associated with combat, acts of heroism and fierce conflict – because ultimately you’re delivering a fantasy to a crowd that wants fantasy-based rewards.
Exactly my point. The Intrinsic value of Twilight is what matters, not the perceived rarity of it. Not as many people run around with Moot. since its intrinsic value is lower, for having a visual that is less appealing to most, and attached to a weapon that most players do not use. Although I couldn’t tell you how many Twilights I’ve seen relative to Dawns or Dusks, I can’t tell them apart.
The intrinsic value of Twilight matters up to a point – but the fact that it is coveted by others matters and increases its value to its owner.
The incinerator is a decent legendary and yet not many have it – because it isn’t as desired by most people.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
First of all let’s keep WP out of this – he literally lives off his GW2 videos so I don’t consider him a good example.
It took me 6 months after release to make my first legendary -and I wasn’t trying for it – that isn’t reasonable?
Everyone’s time spent is different, but many don’t even have one Legendary at this point, much less two, and there are, what,. a dozen to collect already if you want them all? Again, I don’t think “well, I got all the Legendaries, I’ll have to uninstall now” is a serious consideration.
Except we have no idea how it works in play – how long it actually takes to build it.
There are a lot of details that we don’t know, but we did get some idea of what would go into at least one of them, and it seemed a bit much. For someone who really has everything locked down, they might be able to manage it in fairly little overall time, but it sounded like a lot of little tasks that take place all over Tyria. It just sounds like more than it should be for just the Precursor.
I don’t know, I still feel like for the amount of work they’re indicated, you should not only get the Precursor, but also a significant shortcut on getting the materials together for the final item.
The developers actually described legendary weapons as “best in slot” stating that they will be the best tier of weapons regardless of how many other tiers are added if they decided going that way – so they are best in slot.
That’s a semantic distinction though, since they aren’t actually better than standard Ascended, just more convenient if you intend to stat swap. They’re “best,” but only in the sense of two runners who cross the finish like at the exact same time, but one of them has a fancier hat on when he does it.
As a game developer you always want to have that one thing that the player is chasing – that one carrot on a stick – if you run out of these players will stop chasing and move on.
But again, I do NOT believe that the majority of long term players are “chasing” Legendaries. You said yourself that you mostly stumbled onto yours, and that’s sort of how it happened with me, and while there are Legendaries I want, I haven’t done anything seriously directed at gaining another one in well over a year (well, aside from picking up a spare Gift of Battle before they raised the requirements for it and when it was a “Big Spender” day).
I really don’t think that there is a serious portion of the game’s population who, if you just gifted everyone the full set of Legendaries tomorrow, then they would quit relatively soon after that. I don’t think it’s that big a deal. Not that I am suggesting that it ever should be that easy of course, I just think they could make it a bit easier, and not have to panic at the thought of players actually getting them.
I’m on the fence about making The Juggernaut – if it was really super rare and only a few had it and people wanted it and considered it awesome and rare I would make it. The way it is now – I won’t – because everyone has it. Or at least too many do – its worth to me drops below the point where I would want to make it.
Whereas I wouldn’t do it because I don’t currently play anyone that uses a hammer (although I guess my Rev will), and the costs involved are currently more than the cool factor is worth to me, but if I were to get one, it would be entirely about that sweet sweet shine, not about expecting others to be impressed at how rare it is.
Look at the state of the game for the last 2 years – people have been complaining a lot about nothing to do – nothing to work towards.
Sure, and Legendaires have been there the entire time, and almost nobody has all, or even most of them, and yet they still complained about nothing to do. I think it’d be fair to argue that “nothing to do” and “legendary weapons” do not strongly correlate in any way. I think that people complained about nothing to do because they didn’t make any major expansions to the scale of the world, people were playing with the same toybox for too long, and I don’t think anything involving Legendaries would have changed that. I do think that the Legendary Pre-Crafting is a nice step, as I’ve said, I think that the tasks will be entertaining, I’m just worried about the effort/reward balance of them.
You do realize how many people work this way? There are WHOLE industries based on this.
Yes, but these people are not ones you would typically want to emulate. They’re typically referred to as “bad role models.” The industries in question also often deal in finite products, involving high end craftsmanship and materials, which does not apply to digital items.
Sorry but that’s exactly how MMOs work – you want this item? Do this thing for 50 hours regardless of whether you like it or not and you’ll get it.
That’s when an MMO is working poorly. The better MMOs avoid that whenever possible, and for the most part GW2 succeeds at this fairly well, they just have their weak points.
If they straight-up gave us legendary armor then how do they keep people in the game?
Again, you can make a stronger argument by not arguing against points that have never been expressed.
There will be dozens upon dozens and hundreds of hours players will sink into raids to get that armor – that’s time Anet is profiting off the fact that you are in game – even if you’re not spending in the gem store you’re creating materials, consuming consumables (lol) and acting as an NPC to other players who might be spending money in the gem store.
Most of that stuff ANet doesn’t benefit from at all, and the idea that me being there makes things easier for other players, who also might be annoyed at being there, benefits nobody in the grand scheme of things. I’m going to be spending a fixed amount of time in the game as it is, if I’m not in a raid then I’m going to be doing something else. I’m more likely to spend MORE time if the activity is one that I enjoy, as well as being happier while doing it.
The sheer numbers alone forced regular WvW ( long before EOTM) into a karm-train state and it didn’t stop until after about 2 weeks when most PvE players had finished their farm.
I was one of them – and it worked.
And who benefited from that, that WvW was overpopulated for two weeks while other zones were underpopulated? How did that make ANet more money? How did that make more players happy?
So what will keep people doing raids let’s say a year or two from now if they’ve already done them a couple of times – mastered them and proved to themselves they can do it.
If players enjoy it? Then it’ll be the most fun way to earn the highest level of general reward, so it’ll be the place they go to farm. If players don’t enjoy it? Then they won’t be playing it, and they’ll be happier for it. Win/Win.
And keep in mind, the same is true regardless of the quality of the loot, even if it drops Precursor armor, people will collect it all eventually, and then be in that same “I was only here for the special loot, I got it all, and now I’m done” situation. This is why I advocate systems where the loot is more flexible, so even if you do have all the loot unique to the area, you can continue to work towards loot from other areas there if it is your favorite activity.
PvE gameplay doesn’t have staying power because the AI is designed to be weak and beatable. So the artificial staying power is created by adding desirable rewards for X number of times you complete the content.
Yes, and I think that’s fine, so long as X is “more than one” and “less than ‘too many.’”
Nobody wants to have the legendary bundle of dragon slaying – you want the sword.
Nobody wants the mythical bundle of fear and destruction – they want the armor.
Be that as may, there are also plenty of people who want that sword and that armor, and don’t care about the dragon slaying or whatever. It’s not that I don’t get why you would want both, who doesn’t like having “more?” I’m just saying that they don’t deserve to have both, when that comes at the expense of the happiness of others.
They can earn that fancy sword or fancy armor, they just shouldn’t have exclusive access to it.
The incinerator is a decent legendary and yet not many have it – because it isn’t as desired by most people.
Right, because it is a glowy flaming knife, and doesn’t make a lot of sense to a Thief or a Necro, and barely any to an Ele. It really doesn’t make a lot of thematic sense for any of the knife-wielding classes except for the Ele, and even then only while they’re in fire spec. Maybe if it shifted elements or something. Anyways, I don’t think that the demand for Incinerator would rise much if the supply fell. The same people would either want or not want it. If supply greatly fell then the price would rise, but demand overall would actually fall because less and less people would actually be willing to bother with the increasing price. There would be some people who would become more attracted to it as the supply fell, but these would be few in number and ultimately an insignificant blip of the game’s overall population.
Btw, it’s worth nothing that according to Efficiency, the average number of Legendaries owned by players under 5000hrs is 2 each, the top 1% get their first in under 500hrs, the top 10% get their first within a 1000hrs, and so on. It seems like long term 1%ers already have all of them, sometimes multiple of all of them for no apparent reason. I doubt they’ve quit, since they have thousands of hours logged and that would be hard to do if they quit already.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Everyone’s time spent is different, but many don’t even have one Legendary at this point, much less two, and there are, what,. a dozen to collect already if you want them all? Again, I don’t think “well, I got all the Legendaries, I’ll have to uninstall now” is a serious consideration.
It is when people start running out of things to do – because legendary weapons are also niche – which means some of them will remain forever unloved by the general public because of their design. So ‘weird’ design coupled with the fact that it’s not relevant to most people means weapons like Quip are by design flawed as being a long-term goal.
I think we shouldn’t consider all legendaries equal – and just look at the ones that actually get made.
That’s a semantic distinction though, since they aren’t actually better than standard Ascended, just more convenient if you intend to stat swap. They’re “best,” but only in the sense of two runners who cross the finish like at the exact same time, but one of them has a fancier hat on when he does it.
Except there’s a great amount of psychic comfort associated with a legendary item – the fact that it will always be best in slot – which means more than just a fancy hat. It means that when and if new tiers of gear will be added ( and let’s not forget Anet has already done this once – the precedent is set – and they’ve also said they might add more in the far future- so the door is open) your legendary gear will still be the best.
So a person with full legendary gear – armor and weapons and trinkets – knows that he’ll be forever exempt from gear grind in GW2.
But again, I do NOT believe that the majority of long term players are “chasing” Legendaries. You said yourself that you mostly stumbled onto yours, and that’s sort of how it happened with me, and while there are Legendaries I want, I haven’t done anything seriously directed at gaining another one in well over a year (well, aside from picking up a spare Gift of Battle before they raised the requirements for it and when it was a “Big Spender” day).
I didn’t stumble onto it – I made it but what I meant is not 100% of my play time was dedicated solely to making it – I took time for other things that didn’t matter from a building a legendary perspective – such as PvP and whatnot.
After my first – the accumulation of wealth in order to get other legendary weapons and rare skins and the best gear possible was ( and still is) my primary motivation for playing the game.
Whereas I wouldn’t do it because I don’t currently play anyone that uses a hammer (although I guess my Rev will), and the costs involved are currently more than the cool factor is worth to me, but if I were to get one, it would be entirely about that sweet sweet shine, not about expecting others to be impressed at how rare it is.
We are different people with different mindsets – Anet wants to keep both of us in game.
Sure, and Legendaires have been there the entire time, and almost nobody has all, or even most of them, and yet they still complained about nothing to do. I think it’d be fair to argue that “nothing to do” and “legendary weapons” do not strongly correlate in any way. I think that people complained about nothing to do because they didn’t make any major expansions to the scale of the world, people were playing with the same toybox for too long, and I don’t think anything involving Legendaries would have changed that. I do think that the Legendary Pre-Crafting is a nice step, as I’ve said, I think that the tasks will be entertaining, I’m just worried about the effort/reward balance of them.
Because tier 1 legendary weapons are a farce when it comes to being a “status symbol” – soon after release it became abundantly clear that a lot of people simply bought theirs and never worked for it.
At that point legendary weapons already took a huge hit regarding what they should have been.
I do understand your worry – we’ll have to see how much to do there really is.
Yes, but these people are not ones you would typically want to emulate. They’re typically referred to as “bad role models.” The industries in question also often deal in finite products, involving high end craftsmanship and materials, which does not apply to digital items.
It’s not about bad or good role models – it’s about selling as much of your product to as many people as possible. If this is what gets these people playing then give them that and watch them spend money and time on your game.
Just because an item is digital doesn’t mean it doesn’t take resources – time – the ultimate resource is what it ultimately all boils down too – just like real life tangible goods digital goods also take time. Every resource a real item requires to manufacture can be ultimately boiled down to the time involved.
And even if it didn’t take ANY resource to make a digital item – why not just create artificial scarcity and watch people flock to buy it and want it just because of the perceived rareness – which is entirely artificial?
Look at how the gem store operates : Amazing finisher sale – buy them now before they’re removed from the gem store – only to add them later to BLC drops and have them available that way – this is an artificial scarcity stunt. And it works.
That’s when an MMO is working poorly. The better MMOs avoid that whenever possible, and for the most part GW2 succeeds at this fairly well, they just have their weak points.
WoW does this and it’s the biggest MMO – most MMOs do this – regardless of moment or reason – this method works.
Most of that stuff ANet doesn’t benefit from at all, and the idea that me being there makes things easier for other players, who also might be annoyed at being there, benefits nobody in the grand scheme of things. I’m going to be spending a fixed amount of time in the game as it is, if I’m not in a raid then I’m going to be doing something else. I’m more likely to spend MORE time if the activity is one that I enjoy, as well as being happier while doing it.
The more people do the content the more the feeling of “that’s where it’s at” diffuses through the player base.
The more people that do the content the easier it is for people to find others to go with.
I don’t really see how you can argue that the more players are in game centered on a specific activity the better it is for the game’s developers who are actively promoting that activity.
And who benefited from that, that WvW was overpopulated for two weeks while other zones were underpopulated? How did that make ANet more money? How did that make more players happy?
Anet did – they made me play the game more than I was on average – which was already a lot. You assume that people just spent the same amount of time on the game that they were doing usually and just moved from wherever they were to WvW. In reality a lot of players simply played more.
Also – it gave me a new WvW experience – and being forced to WvW for that ammount of time actually made me consider and play the game mode later on.
If players enjoy it? Then it’ll be the most fun way to earn the highest level of general reward, so it’ll be the place they go to farm. If players don’t enjoy it? Then they won’t be playing it, and they’ll be happier for it. Win/Win.
If it’s the best farm -players will play it regardless for the farm if only for that. Look at CoF P1 repeat farm before dungeon rewards were changed – do you think people farmed that for the gameplay?
And keep in mind, the same is true regardless of the quality of the loot, even if it drops Precursor armor, people will collect it all eventually, and then be in that same “I was only here for the special loot, I got it all, and now I’m done” situation. This is why I advocate systems where the loot is more flexible, so even if you do have all the loot unique to the area, you can continue to work towards loot from other areas there if it is your favorite activity.
But if it takes a sufficiently long time to reach the " got the loot – never again" situation then that content would have paid off the amount of developer time it took to design.
Yes, and I think that’s fine, so long as X is “more than one” and “less than ‘too many.’”
Too many is variable and subjective – the best measure of too many is to just note at what number of repeat the majority of the people who did it give up at – that number is Y and X must be slightly smaller than Y to obtain maximum efficiency out of development time.
I’m just saying that they don’t deserve to have both, when that comes at the expense of the happiness of others.
This is the core issue – you think people care about the happiness of others – which you might do – but most people do not – most people care about THEIR happiness and the happiness of a few close others ( family, friends, significant other) – most people do not care about the happiness of other unrelated, unknown individuals – especially ones that they only meet virtual representations of in a game which they play for their own enjoyment.
Anyways, I don’t think that the demand for Incinerator would rise much if the supply fell.
It would if people suddenly decided the Incinerator is awesome and a lot of people would want it – that alone would make those who can but won’t make it now reconsider their stance.
It’s not about supply and demand – but desirability of the item. If the item is perceived as being “wanted” or desired then the person might consider making it simply for that reason – to have what others want to have but can’t.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
The reason why people are unhappy is NOT because there is a lot of grind in a game, but because there is a lot of grind in the xpac of a game originally advertised as one that “does not require time to prepare for fun” and “respects your time”.
That is, people are unhappy that Anet failed their legendary “quest” of designing a MMORPG without grinding.
The fact that there are grindy stuff in some other games is totally irrelevant. Anet tried to avoid grindy stuff and then gave up in the xpac, and that’s it. Of course there are people who are happy about Anet’s failure because they like grindy stuff, while others will be unhappy.
I don’t think anyone can argue about this.
The reason why people are unhappy is NOT because there is a lot of grind in a game, but because there is a lot of grind in the xpac of a game originally advertised as one that “does not require time to prepare for fun” and “respects your time”.
That is, people are unhappy that Anet failed their legendary “quest” of designing a MMORPG without grinding.
The fact that there are grindy stuff in some other games is totally irrelevant. Anet tried to avoid grindy stuff and then gave up in the xpac, and that’s it. Of course there are people who are happy about Anet’s failure because they like grindy stuff, while others will be unhappy.
I don’t think anyone can argue about this.
You’re absolutely right. ANet should not have told people they would not have to prepare to have fun, because ANet should know by now that some people just don’t know how to have fun. I truly pity those people.
You know the ones I’m talking about – the ones who have to have everything right off the bat, the ones who can’t be bothered to feel pride in accomplishing an unlock with anything other than a credit card. The ones who would probably be more at home in Second Life (until they realized it’s even more monetized than Neverwinter ever will be).
But I get that. I do. Life is a grind for most. Some of those people just can’t handle that and have to have an escape mechanism – a game where people feel special, even if they haven’t earned the distinction. A game for people who don’t want to do anything, yet want to have everything.
Problem is, a game like that doesn’t exist because it’s so incredibly boring for the vast majority of gamers. Otherwise, those games would be ubiquitous.
But no, I feel your pain, bruh. Life’s hard. It requires work for stuff and things (in most cases). If you don’t want to earn what you get, hey, there’s no law against feeling that way.
Maybe with the next expansion you’ll get what you want – no grind, all lewt. But until then, you need a pile of XP to unlock those masteries if you wanna hang out in the new areas. And there’s no way around it.
My deepest sympathies. -Sid
The reason why people are unhappy is NOT because there is a lot of grind in a game, but because there is a lot of grind in the xpac of a game originally advertised as one that “does not require time to prepare for fun” and “respects your time”.
Players have been asking for a better way to get Legendary Weapons, a way that has more focused grind instead of just grind and they delivered. Now players complain that the grind they asked for is there?
The reason why people are unhappy is NOT because there is a lot of grind in a game, but because there is a lot of grind in the xpac of a game originally advertised as one that “does not require time to prepare for fun” and “respects your time”.
That is, people are unhappy that Anet failed their legendary “quest” of designing a MMORPG without grinding.
The fact that there are grindy stuff in some other games is totally irrelevant. Anet tried to avoid grindy stuff and then gave up in the xpac, and that’s it. Of course there are people who are happy about Anet’s failure because they like grindy stuff, while others will be unhappy.
I don’t think anyone can argue about this.
Your whole argument is bunk because anet promised a game with no MANDATORY grind which is still the case. You all keep acting as if having a legendary is an integral part of the game and is required. Legedarys are an item, a cosmetic skin, it doesnt unlock some previously unaccesable content in the game., its a completeky uneeded luxory item. Anet added more long term goals for the type of player that enjoys grinding, not getting a legendary in no way inhibits your gameplay
The reason why people are unhappy is NOT because there is a lot of grind in a game, but because there is a lot of grind in the xpac of a game originally advertised as one that “does not require time to prepare for fun” and “respects your time”.
That is, people are unhappy that Anet failed their legendary “quest” of designing a MMORPG without grinding.
The fact that there are grindy stuff in some other games is totally irrelevant. Anet tried to avoid grindy stuff and then gave up in the xpac, and that’s it. Of course there are people who are happy about Anet’s failure because they like grindy stuff, while others will be unhappy.
I don’t think anyone can argue about this.
Your whole argument is bunk because anet promised a game with no MANDATORY grind which is still the case. You all keep acting as if having a legendary is an integral part of the game and is required. Legedarys are an item, a cosmetic skin, it doesnt unlock some previously unaccesable content in the game., its a completeky uneeded luxory item. Anet added more long term goals for the type of player that enjoys grinding, not getting a legendary in no way inhibits your gameplay
If it is of no consequence if you have a legendary or not, why for example put it behind a raid gate? I actually agree with everyone that does not want to craft armor over and over again to do the same but on a higher level, I just believe the “there is only one way” method of obtaining legendaries is not enough ans counterproductive for the game.
The reason why people are unhappy is NOT because there is a lot of grind in a game, but because there is a lot of grind in the xpac of a game originally advertised as one that “does not require time to prepare for fun” and “respects your time”.
That is, people are unhappy that Anet failed their legendary “quest” of designing a MMORPG without grinding.
The fact that there are grindy stuff in some other games is totally irrelevant. Anet tried to avoid grindy stuff and then gave up in the xpac, and that’s it. Of course there are people who are happy about Anet’s failure because they like grindy stuff, while others will be unhappy.
I don’t think anyone can argue about this.
Your whole argument is bunk because anet promised a game with no MANDATORY grind which is still the case. You all keep acting as if having a legendary is an integral part of the game and is required. Legedarys are an item, a cosmetic skin, it doesnt unlock some previously unaccesable content in the game., its a completeky uneeded luxory item. Anet added more long term goals for the type of player that enjoys grinding, not getting a legendary in no way inhibits your gameplay
Did I say anything about legendary? The number of different ways of putting words into others’ mouths really amazed me.
If you think that the grind in HOT is only for cosmetic items, then you clearly haven’t paid close attention to the features of HOT that the developers talked about.
The reason why people are unhappy is NOT because there is a lot of grind in a game, but because there is a lot of grind in the xpac of a game originally advertised as one that “does not require time to prepare for fun” and “respects your time”.
Players have been asking for a better way to get Legendary Weapons, a way that has more focused grind instead of just grind and they delivered. Now players complain that the grind they asked for is there?
I am not talking about ways of getting legendary weapons. I actually got one in the old way by playing less than an hour a day on average, and I don’t really have comments on different ways of getting legendary weapons.
Oh, geez, I see why two persons are talking about legendary items when replying to my post. Read it more carefully. I said Anet’s initial intention of designing a MMORPG without grinding was legendary. Here legendary is an adjective, and it is not referring to legendary items in GW2.
I agree with the OP. More GW2 grind. I remember when the game was in makings and they were talking about open world where you go anywhere and do anything with no grind whatsoever…