Guild Wars 2

Well its not fully optimized then, is it?! #gitgud #scrub

Im not to worried about it. In the interview people love to point to so badly Jon Peters was only talking about skills. Support skills, Control skills, etc. Not once did he mention anything about the gear you wear, only the skills you use.

So swapping to a different weapon and different utility skills should be enough. Honestly this shouldn’t even be a big surprise because that is exactly how they advertised GW2.

GW2 has roles. Dps, control, support. And you were suppose to swap to a different weapon or change utility skills to deal with a fight. Turned out a lot of fights were to simplistic that that didn’t work, although for some fights this principle does apply already.

maddoctor.2738:

tigirius.9014:

maddoctor.2738:

Caeledh.5437:

tigirius.9014:

So when you say that players can max their DPS and they can play the way they want to you’re not being honest about the situation in PVE in PVP that might be true but it’s certainly not true in PVE.

Yes, there’s a truly amazing amount of blatant dishonesty in this thread. Claims which don’t just beggar belief, but strip it naked and beat it bloody.

It’s curious…

tigirius.9014:

So really there is only 1 role right now which is Zerker DPS and that’s the end of it. Just because people choose to use the broken models does in no way mean that it’s balanced or diverse in PVE.

Absolutely.

Zerker is not a role, it’s gear stats
And Zerkers are not optimal nor are they successful without a lot of support so I don’t understand where that comment is coming from, I thought anyone who read the rest of thread (and the other similar ones) already understood that.

Zerker is glass cannon in some circles it’s called DPS which means it’s very much a role. Please just stop if your only arguments are semantics.

So if I play a “zerker” Thief while providing Stealth to my group and blinds to enemy mobs I’m still a DPS role?

If I play a 0/0/2/6/6 Elementalist in full zerker gear, I’m still using a DPS role?

Yes I would consider that a dps role. There is no real incentive in running healing power on the 0/0/2/6/6, when you could get all of that condi clear for yourself and your group while still running a damage set. Yes you have support things but I still fully consider you a dps role. People whom wish to dedicate to support running healing power is a drop in efficiency and have no real merit in dungeons when you get that utility for free without stats applied.

I consider people whom stack area might and run berserkers dps.I consider people whom trait for area condi clear(your example with the ele) and still have berserkers dps. I consider people whom put up guardian walls or feedback bubbles and have berserkers dps.

The problem is simply that there isn’t incentive enough a deversity in your sets. You CAN run them, or you could run damage and still bring utility skills that don’t scale off of stats.

This isn’t to say these utility skills SHOULD scale off of stats but instead that there should be reasons that having a healing power or defensive oriented character would help and not be considered a hindrance. I believe this is all people are asking for really. Not sure why you wouldn’t want diversity to be promoted.

1. This game already has a mixture of control/support/damage. Examples:
- banner of discipline - does no damage of it’s own. Has area effect that increases attributes of affected allies. Ability type: support (offensive) - this banner is the basis of any proper warrior build aimed at dungeons/instanced PvE content.
- black powder - blinds nearby foes (AoE that pulses). Does practically no damage (the initial shot deals like 100 dmg to the target of the skill if anything is targeted at all if I remember correctly). Ability type: control (defensive) - used very often against many trash mobs, especially in fractals of the mists.
- deep freeze - 4s long stun (frost bow skill #5). Used on almost every single boss in this game by organized parties (well, except Lupi I guess and maybe a few others). Ability type: control

2. This game has even encounter phases/steps tied in to those aspects of gameplay (talking about organized groups).
- pre-stacking might – support phase of the fight. You deal no damage to the boss itself, you provide your party with boons which are required to kill the boss quickly and efficiently.
- deep freezing/fight opener – control phase. You incapacitate the boss for a time long enough for a good party to kill it. If the party doesn’t kill the boss they coordinate CC spike to remove the remaining defiant stacks and deep freeze it again.
- dps phase - follows support and control phase. For numerous encounters (especially in fractals though) these phases switch and rotate depending on boss mechanics (reflect/deflect uptimes like on Grawl Shaman ect.).

3. Therefore what you people are complaining about is not that control/support are not viable, but EXCLUSIVELY FOCUSING ON CONTROL/SUPPORT are not viable. Or are they?
…
Indeed they are. You can still complete any instance geared and traited any way you want as long as those are consistent to a certain degree and used adequately. There have been numerous videos showing Lupicus kills (the most challenging non-fractal boss in PvE as it currently stands) without a single dodge in full tank gear.

You are all just salty that the meta game is more effective than the way you want to play. But there’s a reason to that as well: effectiveness comes from dedication and skill, not only gear and team composition. There is a group of people running dungeons with full tank guardian which achieves better clear times than majority of full-zerker PUG groups can dream of (I still find it wasteful but let’s not delve into that topic).

4. Introducing artificial trinity would be toxic to this game: yea, sure, you could finally get to play that pure support ele that you want so much, but very shortly you would discover, that the dungeon encounters that we currently have are not that challenging and complex as they are let’s say in WoW. The only challenge to regular players comes from the lack of understanding of the content and trinity only ever works towards trivializing content (reducing the requirement to be an effective party member from 3 aspects of the game to 1, effectively “dumbing down the game”). You would be left with the same feeling that we “filthy elitists” currently have: the feeling of neglect.

5. Open-world boss meta game is not the same as dungeon meta. Most people who do world bosses daily run completely different builds as compared to dungeoneers. This point is to highlight, that not only berserker gear is useful for all PvE. Open world bosses are the second “organized” aspect of PvE.

I still feel the need to point out, that gear type has nothing to do with roles/group comp or playstyle of a character. Those are determined by weapon, trait and utility slot choices.

6. What this game needs is truly challenging content. If content is truly challenging, PUGs will become more accepting of “tanky” guardians, “support” eles ect. because players capable of clearing said content in the same manner they are clearing content right now will become exceedingly scarce. You will get to play your trivialized versions of current professions however much you want and we’ll keep our effective way of doing things. All will be happy and the game will be a lot better this way.

Silferas.3841:

What this game needs is truly challenging content. If content is truly challenging, PUGs will become more accepting of “tanky” guardians, “support” eles ect. because players capable of clearing said content in the same manner they are clearing content right now will become exceedingly scarce

I disagree with mostly everything in your post besides this comment. However I felt this was the most important and rendered everything else moot. Changing the scaling and such isn’t really needed I don’t think anything as it stands should change just mechanics that are more accepting towards things other than just burning down the boss and dodging out of red circles.

@Rehero: I’ve read your posts and your perceptions of the state of the game seem to be based purely on personal impressions and feelings with which I cannot argue, but at the same time I refuse to take into consideration.

At least I am glad we agree on the important topic and that is what this game needs in the future: truly challenging content.

Rehero.7821:

Yes I would consider that a dps role. There is no real incentive in running healing power on the 0/0/2/6/6, when you could get all of that condi clear for yourself and your group while still running a damage set. Yes you have support things but I still fully consider you a dps role. People whom wish to dedicate to support running healing power is a drop in efficiency and have no real merit in dungeons when you get that utility for free without stats applied.

I consider people whom stack area might and run berserkers dps.I consider people whom trait for area condi clear(your example with the ele) and still have berserkers dps. I consider people whom put up guardian walls or feedback bubbles and have berserkers dps.

The problem is simply that there isn’t incentive enough a deversity in your sets. You CAN run them, or you could run damage and still bring utility skills that don’t scale off of stats.

This isn’t to say these utility skills SHOULD scale off of stats but instead that there should be reasons that having a healing power or defensive oriented character would help and not be considered a hindrance. I believe this is all people are asking for really. Not sure why you wouldn’t want diversity to be promoted.

You see, that’s exactly why this topic is still alive. Because you and others call 00266 ele in berserker’s gear dps role. It would be much better to call it bruiser which is a build with high effective health and damage per second. But this bruiser has a lot of support (pvpers want it nerfed because it’s so strong).

Going from berserker’s gear -> soldier’s gear will reduce your dps by about 30% while doubling your effective hp. Ele going from 66200 to 00266 will gut his own dps.

Rehero.7821:

I disagree with mostly everything in your post besides this comment. However I felt this was the most important and rendered everything else moot. Changing the scaling and such isn’t really needed I don’t think anything as it stands should change just mechanics that are more accepting towards things other than just burning down the boss and dodging out of red circles.

It’s much easier to stay alive if you constantly have boons like regen and prot. You don’t need high damage to steer pugs into more support, you need steady, intense pressure.

tigirius.9014:

So really there is only 1 role right now which is Zerker DPS and that’s the end of it. Just because people choose to use the broken models does in no way mean that it’s balanced or diverse in PVE.

Oh Oh, can we play a game Tigirius?? Pretty please. We’ll play : let’s find out what good players use in this game. Ok?

Ok so what’s the ideal group composition? It’s obviously 5 elementalist since Ele have the highest dps of the game right?

But some ppl like to play other profession just for fun, but they are not optimal let’s remember that.

On my warrior I never use Axe/Mace because that’s a dps lost. Use only pure GS because that’s the highest dps. Axe/Mace give vulnerability, but nobody care about that, dps only right. So of course no warrior run 6/5/0/0/3 since 6/6/0/0/2 is more dps. That’s the meta right.

One thing that kitten me off is when a thief join my group and use Shortbow. That’s not a dps weapons. Oh the humanity, look at him blasting some stealth and putting SR on us. He replaced his dps signet for that man, can you believe it. He replace some of his dps for stealth, he don’t know how to play the game or what. But the worth is Dagger/Pistol. He lost like a good 3rd of his dps just to control the defiant stack of the mobs. REALLY. I mean REALLY. How dare he.

But guardians are the worth. I heard that some of them are not always taking Signet of Bane. I even heard that most of them are not using it. They bring Wall of Reflection to ’’protect’’ the team, purging flame to remove condition and retreat to block an attack for the whole team. What a bunch of kitten really. I kick every guardian that join my party because not only do they only have a average dps, they also bring a lot of support. I mean L2P big time ima right. Some of them are even using 4/5/0/0/5 as a build. I think I’m gonna throw up, because that’s not all. Fractal Hammer is apparently a think with bad player. The think that losing 5% of their dps is worth it to give perma protection to their team in fractal. I’m ashamed to have a guardian as a main.

But they are not alone. Even record run didn’t receive the memo about all dps and only dps. They bring Mesmer into their run can you believe it. One of the worth dps profession in the game. They use feedback, Temporal, time wrap and portal like idiots. Yes, you see that right. TEMPORAL CURTAIN. They don’t even bring a pistol, they take a kitten focus man, best way to cut your already lacking dps.

#dpsonly

Rehero.7821

Yes I would consider that a dps role.

You are fundamentally misunderstanding the “trinity” in GW2 if you try to put any build in a single little box.

GW2 has a trinity. Its Damage, Support and Control. What GW2 does different is that no one build fulfills exclusively one of these. Everyone should be able to adept their skills on the fly to bring more or less of anything.

The trinity is not made equal, it never was. Damage is the foundation, everyone should be able to hit something. Nobody has any excuse, ever, to sit in a corner and only spam support skills or control skills.
That’s why these skills often have relatively long cooldowns.

The original idea for GW2, which Jon Peters mentions they wanted to reinforce, was that players use support, control, damage skills when needed. And to change their selected skills to meet each challenge.
This does not happen enough. Stacking in a corner and burning a boss down is often the best strategy, that is what arenanet wants to change. They aren’t doing something new, they are simply going back to their original intentions.

I sometimes get fed up with all the anti-trinity hipsters on here being completely dictatorial about how there should be absolutely zero trinity. And I dislike how you get patronised or flamed to hell if you disagree with them.

I personally couldn’t give a crap if GW2 sticks with its current combat system or does decide to delve further into a trinity-like game. I’ll still enjoy playing it either way.

One observation I would make though is that this game has become very one-dimensional in that DPS is EVERYTHING. There is absolutely no reward for building your character with a heal-based build (as proven by WoodenPotatoes in his youtube video covering that particular topic), and the only profession build that comes close to a proper “tank” is a cleric Guardian, and even then you’ll get ‘rekt’ by a lot of PvE creatures. Trinity advocates simply want more reward for more diverse gameplay options. Anti-trinity people are essentially saying that the current DPS-is-best scenario is acceptable. It’s not.

Terrahero.9358:

Stacking in a corner and burning a boss down is often the best strategy, that is what arenanet wants to change.

PuGs still do that? Man… SOoooooooo outdated.

thefantasticg.3984:

Caeledh.5437:

thefantasticg.3984:

Have you looked to see whatelse is required by those materials to craft? Perhaps that’s what driving up the cost? Of course you haven’t.

Have you? Since you’re trying to argue against it have you looked and can provide even a single alternate cause of the higher cost? You haven’t and you can’t..

I don’t have to. The burden of proof is on you. It’s on you to bring the proof since you stated these things as facts… which you still haven’t done that the “vast majority” of dungeon runs are done by people running full zerker gear/builds and or that the “vast majority” of players in PVE are, in fact, running zerker gear/builds. If it was I that stated these things as facts it would be on me to provide undeniable proof that this was indeed a fact and not just a claim I was making to try to defend my point.

You, sir, still lack solid evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the “vast majority” of PVE players run zerker gear/builds and you lack solid evidence that “vast majority” of dungeon runs are done by zerker gear/builds.

What you, sir, are doing are making claims (and somehow magically turn them into facts) with NO DATA whatsoever to back up your silly claims.

I eargerly await your evidence that does turn your claims into facts.

By the way, what number consitutes “vast majority” of players? 1,000? 100,000? 1,000,000? Does this “vast majority” include the Chinese market? Also, what number qualifies as the “vast majority” of dungeon runs? Do you know how many total dungeon runs have been done since release so that you have a number to go off of to claim “vast majority”?

I’m gonna chime in. You’re not wrong, but he’s likely not wrong either. The teams might not be “full” zerker, but many a time a new player in-game will ask what they ought to build for dungeons/leveling in map chat and receive “zerker” as a response. This isn’t new or unknown. Berserker stats are, statistically, the best at putting out damage for most classes. There are some exceptions to this rule, but it’s pretty safe to say that your damage will be higher with berserker gear if your play style doesn’t change any.

As for crafting mats, those vials of blood that are required for berserker inscriptions are often (not always) more expensive than the other stat counterparts. I just bought some this morning to hit my Huntsman 500 (yay), along with some other inscription materials, so it’s just my word against the TP, which could have fluctuated some since then. Now, they are not exceedingly more expensive than the others, but I did not check out the supply/demand curve with relation to the other inscriptions, so I can’t say if this is the reason. Berserker gear generally does sell for more on the TP than other gear though. Selling the berserker pearl brazier vs any of the other ones (again, I just did it this morning) resulted in about 30 extra silver per torch that I sold (~2g32s compared to ~1g98s for the others). That would seem to indicate a higher demand, or at least a more valuable item in the TP community’s eyes.

MiniEquine.6014:

I’m gonna chime in. You’re not wrong, but he’s likely not wrong either. The teams might not be “full” zerker, but many a time a new player in-game will ask what they ought to build for dungeons/leveling in map chat and receive “zerker” as a response. This isn’t new or unknown. Berserker stats are, statistically, the best at putting out damage for most classes. There are some exceptions to this rule, but it’s pretty safe to say that your damage will be higher with berserker gear if your play style doesn’t change any.

Right. I won’t argue that zerker gear/builds are the best at putting out the damage. That was never in question. The question regarded was the “vast majority” of players in PVE for a fact ran zerker or not, which is simply unknowable outside of Anet. The question regarded was the “vast majority” of dungeon runs were done for a fact by parties running full zerk gear/builds. The difference was I wasn’t making claims that needed statiscal/hard data to back it up.

And, I agree, that is most likely the price of materials for zerker equipment cost the most due to the preceived gate that you need it to do content which was passed by word-of-mouth. Basically it could be an artifical demand on the materials because so many casuals have been convinced that they need zerker gear to be viable (which is completely false because every gear/build is viable) while not knowing about the other (argueably more important) half which is traits… but that’s just a theory I literally put together while typing this post.

Terrahero.9358:

Rehero.7821

Yes I would consider that a dps role.

You are fundamentally misunderstanding the “trinity” in GW2 if you try to put any build in a single little box.

GW2 has a trinity. Its Damage, Support and Control. What GW2 does different is that no one build fulfills exclusively one of these. Everyone should be able to adept their skills on the fly to bring more or less of anything.

The trinity is not made equal, it never was. Damage is the foundation, everyone should be able to hit something. Nobody has any excuse, ever, to sit in a corner and only spam support skills or control skills.
That’s why these skills often have relatively long cooldowns.

The original idea for GW2, which Jon Peters mentions they wanted to reinforce, was that players use support, control, damage skills when needed. And to change their selected skills to meet each challenge.
This does not happen enough. Stacking in a corner and burning a boss down is often the best strategy, that is what arenanet wants to change. They aren’t doing something new, they are simply going back to their original intentions.

I don’t misunderstand anything when I say that if a person brings berserkers gear and utility skills geared for granting boons they are still a dps oriented build. Support skills and other such things are usable on everything including damage gear and I am ok with this, but it isn’t until someone equips more durable or healing oriented gear to amplify those skills that I consider them anything other than a dps. It is because of the way the trinity works in this game that I say this. I find it completely outlandish to say that if I were to equip Nomad’s gear I would be considered someone built to do damage. This same thing applies to someone whom equips berserker’s, doesn’t matter what their utility skills and traits are they are set up to deal more damage.

The problem now lies in that the gear sets, nomads and apothecary and other such things fall so short in comparison to full damage sets which is all I am saying. I don’t intend to suggest any buffs for support or durable sets, simply fight mechanics that provide incentive for them, but not require them. Mechanics that make the general populace go, we could run with a full team of dps or we could make our lives a bit easier during boss x by bringing someone whom can provide a bit more healing. Which is something I would figure everyone would want.

Rehero.7821:

Terrahero.9358:

Rehero.7821

Yes I would consider that a dps role.

You are fundamentally misunderstanding the “trinity” in GW2 if you try to put any build in a single little box.

GW2 has a trinity. Its Damage, Support and Control. What GW2 does different is that no one build fulfills exclusively one of these. Everyone should be able to adept their skills on the fly to bring more or less of anything.

The trinity is not made equal, it never was. Damage is the foundation, everyone should be able to hit something. Nobody has any excuse, ever, to sit in a corner and only spam support skills or control skills.
That’s why these skills often have relatively long cooldowns.

The original idea for GW2, which Jon Peters mentions they wanted to reinforce, was that players use support, control, damage skills when needed. And to change their selected skills to meet each challenge.
This does not happen enough. Stacking in a corner and burning a boss down is often the best strategy, that is what arenanet wants to change. They aren’t doing something new, they are simply going back to their original intentions.

I don’t misunderstand anything when I say that if a person brings berserkers gear and utility skills geared for granting boons they are still a dps oriented build. Support skills and other such things are usable on everything including damage gear and I am ok with this, but it isn’t until someone equips more durable or healing oriented gear to amplify those skills that I consider them anything other than a dps. It is because of the way the trinity works in this game that I say this. I find it completely outlandish to say that if I were to equip Nomad’s gear I would be considered someone built to do damage. This same thing applies to someone whom equips berserker’s, doesn’t matter what their utility skills and traits are they are set up to deal more damage.

The problem now lies in that the gear sets, nomads and apothecary and other such things fall so short in comparison to full damage sets which is all I am saying. I don’t intend to suggest any buffs for support or durable sets, simply fight mechanics that provide incentive for them, but not require them. Mechanics that make the general populace go, we could run with a full team of dps or we could make our lives a bit easier during boss x by bringing someone whom can provide a bit more healing. Which is something I would figure everyone would want.

There’s only 1 non dps stat that does anything more than selfishly make your life easier. Healing Power. That stat is purposefully hamstringed to prevent a true healer role from being a thing in this game.

What you’re asking is that they move away from the games intended design because you don’t like the idea of how they set up gear.

I fully consider my guard/mesmer to be support builds even if they are in assassin/zerk gear. I trait and choose my utilities and weapons based on how I can best help the group, not sure how you can not call that a support build. Just because I have faith in my ability to actively defend myself and want to do as much damage as I can while doing that doesn’t change the focus of my build which is to support my teammates. Wearing nomads won’t help me reflect projectiles, cleanse conditions, drop portals, or do really anything on my mesmer. It could help me heal on my guard but the only skill that increases at a decent rate from healing power is my dodge roll heal, the rest scale horribly… and again, that was done on purpose.

Learn to play the game as it’s designed, take a step back and see the big picture. Traits/weapons/utilities define how you play the game. Gear is generaly a slider scale for difficulty while also empowering the choices you made with the other things.

Rehero.7821:

I don’t misunderstand anything when I say that if a person brings berserkers gear and utility skills geared for granting boons they are still a dps oriented build. Support skills and other such things are usable on everything including damage gear and I am ok with this, but it isn’t until someone equips more durable or healing oriented gear to amplify those skills that I consider them anything other than a dps. It is because of the way the trinity works in this game that I say this. I find it completely outlandish to say that if I were to equip Nomad’s gear I would be considered someone built to do damage. This same thing applies to someone whom equips berserker’s, doesn’t matter what their utility skills and traits are they are set up to deal more damage.

The problem now lies in that the gear sets, nomads and apothecary and other such things fall so short in comparison to full damage sets which is all I am saying. I don’t intend to suggest any buffs for support or durable sets, simply fight mechanics that provide incentive for them, but not require them. Mechanics that make the general populace go, we could run with a full team of dps or we could make our lives a bit easier during boss x by bringing someone whom can provide a bit more healing. Which is something I would figure everyone would want.

How does healing oriented gear amplify condition clearing or boon application? How does durable gear amplify stuns, dazes, etc?

Jerus.4350:

Learn to play the game as it’s designed, take a step back and see the big picture. Traits/weapons/utilities define how you play the game. Gear is generaly a slider scale for difficulty while also empowering the choices you made with the other things.

This is becoming an argument of semantics and I still have yet to see anyone say that there is enough incentive to bring anything other than full damage gear. Incentive for more various gear sets would be nice, which is all I am saying.

rotten.9753:

How does healing oriented gear amplify condition clearing or boon application? How does durable gear amplify stuns, dazes, etc?

Who said anything like that? I would accuse you of putting words in my mouth but this is an outlandish claim.

Incentive to bring someone more durable, incentive to bring someone to alleviate some unavoidable damage, incentive to bring someone to condi stack. These are things I feel need to be in the game for pve. Why is this such a bad thing if it is not required?

Rehero.7821:

Incentive to bring someone more durable, incentive to bring someone to alleviate some unavoidable damage, incentive to bring someone to condi stack. These are things I feel need to be in the game for pve. Why is this such a bad thing if it is not required?

No organized runs are going to be bring it over direct damage if it’s not required (a.k.a. forced).

Rehero.7821:

Who said anything like that? I would accuse you of putting words in my mouth but this is an outlandish claim.

Incentive to bring someone more durable, incentive to bring someone to alleviate some unavoidable damage, incentive to bring someone to condi stack. These are things I feel need to be in the game for pve. Why is this such a bad thing if it is not required?

Support skills and other such things are usable on everything including damage gear and I am ok with this, but it isn’t until someone equips more durable or healing oriented gear to amplify those skills that I consider them anything other than a dps

You don’t consider players using support builds with dps gear support oriented. That’s why this thread still exists, because people can’t accept the fact that this makes them more supportive than dps in reality.

thefantasticg.3984:

Rehero.7821:

Incentive to bring someone more durable, incentive to bring someone to alleviate some unavoidable damage, incentive to bring someone to condi stack. These are things I feel need to be in the game for pve. Why is this such a bad thing if it is not required?

No organized runs are going to be bring it over direct damage if it’s not required (a.k.a. forced).

I find comments like this insulting to development teams. It litterally does come down to creating mechanics that can be completed without them but provides some purpose if they are brought. I could think of a few off the top of my head.

For example having some sort of continuous damage that is just heavy enough to keep a damage oriented gear set from out sustaining it with their heal. They are then given the option to run and pick up an item some set distance away or have someone set up to heal through it to avoid you having to drop dps to pick up the item.

Another could be a boss whom doesn’t take damage unless someone is holding a specific item, the items ramps the damage that player takes and the boss then offers preference to attacking that player if they are within a set distance. This way one could run a damage set and just kite the boss out, or he could have the boss stay relatively still by having a durable set and just let the boss hit him.

Obviously this is just two I thought off the top of my head so don’t just nit pick them as I myself think there are likely more intriguing mechanics that could be made however the point remains things that can be done with a full damage set or could be done alittle easier with another.

Rehero.7821:

rotten.9753:

How does healing oriented gear amplify condition clearing or boon application? How does durable gear amplify stuns, dazes, etc?

Who said anything like that? I would accuse you of putting words in my mouth but this is an outlandish claim.

Incentive to bring someone more durable, incentive to bring someone to alleviate some unavoidable damage, incentive to bring someone to condi stack. These are things I feel need to be in the game for pve. Why is this such a bad thing if it is not required?

You said:

but it isn’t until someone equips more durable or healing oriented gear to amplify those skills that I consider them anything other than a dps

And the question still stands, how do you amplify condi removal skills, boon sharing skills, projectile reflection, stun/daze, interrupt, blind, aegis etc skills with “durable” or “healing” oriented gear?

So to you an Elementalist using 0/0/2/6/6 Aura Share build with Berserker gear is a Damage build, but with Cleric gear is a “Support” build, a Guardian using the AH “tanky” build with Berserker gear is a Damage build, while the exact same Guardian using Soldier gear is a Support build.

In a similar way, I guess you’d say when a Thief uses Black Powder to blind a group of mobs in Berserker gear he is a Damage dealer, while the same Thief using Black Powder to blind a group of mobs is a Control build. A Guardian using a Hammer and Scepter for lots of immobilize (Tar in Arah, Grawl Fractal and other events where heavy control is needed) is a Damage dealer in Berserker but a Control character in Soldier gear.

Well this is where most people will disagree with you. It’s not the gear you are using that makes your build. It’s the skills, traits and utilities you choose that make your build more than your gear. It’s not the gear that makes Wall of Reflection a Support skill, it’s the skill itself.

rotten.9753:

Rehero.7821:

Who said anything like that? I would accuse you of putting words in my mouth but this is an outlandish claim.

Incentive to bring someone more durable, incentive to bring someone to alleviate some unavoidable damage, incentive to bring someone to condi stack. These are things I feel need to be in the game for pve. Why is this such a bad thing if it is not required?

Support skills and other such things are usable on everything including damage gear and I am ok with this, but it isn’t until someone equips more durable or healing oriented gear to amplify those skills that I consider them anything other than a dps

You don’t consider players using support builds with dps gear support oriented. That’s why this thread still exists, because people can’t accept the fact that this makes them more supportive than dps in reality.

The thread is still going on because the point remains that gear designed to make the player deal more damage is so much more efficient in every stage of pve than anything else. I don’t care what you call it, dps support tank there doesn’t seem to be anyone refuting it, and this is something that should change.

Rehero.7821:

Jerus.4350:

Learn to play the game as it’s designed, take a step back and see the big picture. Traits/weapons/utilities define how you play the game. Gear is generaly a slider scale for difficulty while also empowering the choices you made with the other things.

This is becoming an argument of semantics and I still have yet to see anyone say that there is enough incentive to bring anything other than full damage gear. Incentive for more various gear sets would be nice, which is all I am saying.

Ohh but there is, it’s called making things easier on yourself.

Rehero.7821:

rotten.9753:

Rehero.7821:

Who said anything like that? I would accuse you of putting words in my mouth but this is an outlandish claim.

Incentive to bring someone more durable, incentive to bring someone to alleviate some unavoidable damage, incentive to bring someone to condi stack. These are things I feel need to be in the game for pve. Why is this such a bad thing if it is not required?

Support skills and other such things are usable on everything including damage gear and I am ok with this, but it isn’t until someone equips more durable or healing oriented gear to amplify those skills that I consider them anything other than a dps

You don’t consider players using support builds with dps gear support oriented. That’s why this thread still exists, because people can’t accept the fact that this makes them more supportive than dps in reality.

The thread is still going on because the point remains that gear designed to make the player deal more damage is so much more efficient in every stage of pve than anything else. I don’t care what you call it, dps support tank there doesn’t seem to be anyone refuting it, and this is something that should change.

Why? Making yourself as weak as possible shouldn’t result in the most optimal play? Where is the logic in that?

Jerus.4350:

Rehero.7821:

Jerus.4350:

Learn to play the game as it’s designed, take a step back and see the big picture. Traits/weapons/utilities define how you play the game. Gear is generaly a slider scale for difficulty while also empowering the choices you made with the other things.

This is becoming an argument of semantics and I still have yet to see anyone say that there is enough incentive to bring anything other than full damage gear. Incentive for more various gear sets would be nice, which is all I am saying.

Ohh but there is, it’s called making things easier on yourself.

Except it isn’t because the mechanics in this game don’t really merit bringing anything other than a damage set. Being kicked out of groups due to healing sets, or having to constantly explain why I prefer to not have to use the berserker’s gear in my inventory is evidence enough. There isn’t enough in the game at the moment that makes the playerbase want to pick up someone who chooses to run a healing power or durability set.

Jerus.4350:

Rehero.7821:

rotten.9753:

Rehero.7821:

Who said anything like that? I would accuse you of putting words in my mouth but this is an outlandish claim.

Incentive to bring someone more durable, incentive to bring someone to alleviate some unavoidable damage, incentive to bring someone to condi stack. These are things I feel need to be in the game for pve. Why is this such a bad thing if it is not required?

Support skills and other such things are usable on everything including damage gear and I am ok with this, but it isn’t until someone equips more durable or healing oriented gear to amplify those skills that I consider them anything other than a dps

You don’t consider players using support builds with dps gear support oriented. That’s why this thread still exists, because people can’t accept the fact that this makes them more supportive than dps in reality.

The thread is still going on because the point remains that gear designed to make the player deal more damage is so much more efficient in every stage of pve than anything else. I don’t care what you call it, dps support tank there doesn’t seem to be anyone refuting it, and this is something that should change.

Why? Making yourself as weak as possible shouldn’t result in the most optimal play? Where is the logic in that?

This is quite literally the most semantic oriented conversation I have ever had.

Rehero.7821:

Jerus.4350:

Rehero.7821:

rotten.9753:

Rehero.7821:

Who said anything like that? I would accuse you of putting words in my mouth but this is an outlandish claim.

Incentive to bring someone more durable, incentive to bring someone to alleviate some unavoidable damage, incentive to bring someone to condi stack. These are things I feel need to be in the game for pve. Why is this such a bad thing if it is not required?

Support skills and other such things are usable on everything including damage gear and I am ok with this, but it isn’t until someone equips more durable or healing oriented gear to amplify those skills that I consider them anything other than a dps

You don’t consider players using support builds with dps gear support oriented. That’s why this thread still exists, because people can’t accept the fact that this makes them more supportive than dps in reality.

The thread is still going on because the point remains that gear designed to make the player deal more damage is so much more efficient in every stage of pve than anything else. I don’t care what you call it, dps support tank there doesn’t seem to be anyone refuting it, and this is something that should change.

Why? Making yourself as weak as possible shouldn’t result in the most optimal play? Where is the logic in that?

This is quite literally the most semantic oriented conversation I have ever had.

Really? It’s simply semantics that you believe that making yourself tanky and having your heals go up slightly should result in some kind of efficient play? Stop blaming semantics for your poor arguments.

Rehero.7821:

The thread is still going on because the point remains that gear designed to make the player deal more damage is so much more efficient in every stage of pve than anything else. I don’t care what you call it, dps support tank there doesn’t seem to be anyone refuting it, and this is something that should change.

It’s efficient because it’s a game mostly driven by your actions rather than your stats. Honestly, what point do you see in having higher gear diversity when your gameplay is virtually the same? There is exactly no difference in gameplay whatsoever whether you play with berserker’s or nomad’s if your build is for instance 00266 ele.

Also, for the 9003th time, this whole notion of toxic zerk meta applies only to dungeons which are no longer developed. Open world is where all the fun is and there gear diversity is achieved making this whole tread pointless.

Rehero.7821:

thefantasticg.3984:

Rehero.7821:

Incentive to bring someone more durable, incentive to bring someone to alleviate some unavoidable damage, incentive to bring someone to condi stack. These are things I feel need to be in the game for pve. Why is this such a bad thing if it is not required?

No organized runs are going to be bring it over direct damage if it’s not required (a.k.a. forced).

I find comments like this insulting to development teams. It litterally does come down to creating mechanics that can be completed without them but provides some purpose if they are brought. I could think of a few off the top of my head.

For example having some sort of continuous damage that is just heavy enough to keep a damage oriented gear set from out sustaining it with their heal. They are then given the option to run and pick up an item some set distance away or have someone set up to heal through it to avoid you having to drop dps to pick up the item.

Another could be a boss whom doesn’t take damage unless someone is holding a specific item, the items ramps the damage that player takes and the boss then offers preference to attacking that player if they are within a set distance. This way one could run a damage set and just kite the boss out, or he could have the boss stay relatively still by having a durable set and just let the boss hit him.

Obviously this is just two I thought off the top of my head so don’t just nit pick them as I myself think there are likely more intriguing mechanics that could be made however the point remains things that can be done with a full damage set or could be done alittle easier with another.

There is one flaw with both your designs, and any other “similar” designs. They will both “force” a group to get a Healer in the first case and a more Tanky character in the second case.

So if those 2 bosses are both in the same dungeon, let’s say boss1 and boss2, this is how this will go:
Everyone will run their preferred gear for the rest of the dungeon, the gear they always use anyway, then one of them will change to Healer for the first boss and someone else (or the same one) will change to a Tanky build for the second boss.

And if similar mechanics are applied to an entire dungeon path, it will just be ignored and neglected. We’ve seen entire dungeon paths being ignored for more silly reasons.

Rehero.7821:

thefantasticg.3984:

Rehero.7821:

Incentive to bring someone more durable, incentive to bring someone to alleviate some unavoidable damage, incentive to bring someone to condi stack. These are things I feel need to be in the game for pve. Why is this such a bad thing if it is not required?

No organized runs are going to be bring it over direct damage if it’s not required (a.k.a. forced).

I find comments like this insulting to development teams. It litterally does come down to creating mechanics that can be completed without them but provides some purpose if they are brought.

I don’t care if you find it insulting to the Devs. You missed THE key word: ORGANIZED. Organized groups, any worth their toons anyway, is going to bring optimal gear/builds and strategy to get through the content the fastest. Which means no matter what changes the Dev’s make there is going to be an optimal gear/build & strategy to do it.

Rehero.7821:

The thread is still going on because the point remains that gear designed to make the player deal more damage is so much more efficient in every stage of pve than anything else. I don’t care what you call it, dps support tank there doesn’t seem to be anyone refuting it, and this is something that should change.

That’s insane and not a game I will play. If they change it where we are forced into traditional WoW roles because of a crying minority of people on the forum, I’ll quit this game faster than you can cry because you’re still getting kicked out of speed clear groups.

maddoctor.2738:

There is one flaw with both your designs, and any other “similar” designs. They will both “force” a group to get a Healer in the first case and a more Tanky character in the second case.

So if those 2 bosses are both in the same dungeon, let’s say boss1 and boss2, this is how this will go:
Everyone will run their preferred gear for the rest of the dungeon, the gear they always use anyway, then one of them will change to Healer for the first boss and someone else (or the same one) will change to a Tanky build for the second boss.

And if similar mechanics are applied to an entire dungeon path, it will just be ignored and neglected. We’ve seen entire dungeon paths being ignored for more silly reasons.

The first doesn’t force a healer if you can still get by with picking up a provided alternative. The second doesn’t force a tank if the player can kite it out. So what if they can just swap sets at least those sets are seeing play. All I was doing is providing examples of things that give incentive for things other than a full boss burn group.

Rehero.7821:

So what if they can just swap sets at least those sets are seeing play..

Bam. This sums it up right here. “Diversity” for the sake of “diversity”. This. This right here is why I’m sincerely glad you’re not a Dev for GW2.

thefantasticg.3984:

Rehero.7821:

So what if they can just swap sets at least those sets are seeing play..

Bam. This sums it up right here. “Diversity” for the sake of “diversity”. This. This right here is why I’m sincerely glad you’re not a Dev for GW2.

How is diversity in any shape or form worse than everyone just running berserker’s because it happens to be the most efficient in pve? The suggestions I made don’t force anything simply incentivize it. I still run healing power on my gear when I can get away with it, but I would rather not have to hide it and I would like to at some point feel like I don’t drop my teams efficiency because I do so.

Rehero.7821:

thefantasticg.3984:

Rehero.7821:

So what if they can just swap sets at least those sets are seeing play..

Bam. This sums it up right here. “Diversity” for the sake of “diversity”. This. This right here is why I’m sincerely glad you’re not a Dev for GW2.

How is diversity in any shape or form worse than everyone just running berserker’s because it happens to be the most efficient in pve? The suggestions I made don’t force anything simply incentivize it. I still run healing power on my gear when I can get away with it, but I would rather not have to hide it and I would like to at some point feel like I don’t drop my teams efficiency because I do so.

Because to lots of people, using Berserker’s gear doesn’t prevent them from also fulfilling Support and Control roles too, as explained multiple times in this thread with examples too. Note: that’s for organised groups obviously.

No matter if you say that a WoR is different if it is used in Berserker or Soldier gear, it’s still WoR, a pure Support skill, meaning the one using it is SUPPORTING, regardless of his gear. Same goes for Blinds, condition removal and all other Support and Control skills.

Making that Support and Control more important is goal for Anet, see the changes to the Breakbar, the Wyvern encounter, even mob designs in Silverwastes. I don’t think anyone in this thread says no to Support and Control, they just believe that the gear is not a limiting factor for doing Support and Control.

maddoctor.2738:

Because to lots of people, using Berserker’s gear doesn’t prevent them from also fulfilling Support and Control roles too, as explained multiple times in this thread with examples too. Note: that’s for organised groups obviously.

This is completely fine, however there is literally 0 reason to bring a healing power set over a berserk set while using those particular skills, which is AGAIN all I am saying. I would like to feel some appreciation or value in having a set design to ramp my healing up instead of feeling worried that my team is going to get upset that I am harming the speed at which they kill the boss. Why is it a bad thing to have mechanics that promote the use of someone using healing power or durability but not require it?

Rehero.7821:

This is completely fine, however there is literally 0 reason to bring a healing power set over a berserk set while using those particular skills, which is AGAIN all I am saying. I would like to feel some appreciation or value in having a set design to ramp my healing up instead of feeling worried that my team is going to get upset that I am harming the speed at which they kill the boss. Why is it a bad thing to have mechanics that promote the use of someone using healing power or durability but not require it?

There will be a reason once a content is challenging enough and pugs will require higher sustain to complete it. It’s simple.

rotten.9753:

There will be a reason once a content is challenging enough and pugs will require higher sustain to complete it. It’s simple.

Which is cool I would be happy then. Not sure why this needed to blow up the way it did.

rotten.9753:

Rehero.7821:

This is completely fine, however there is literally 0 reason to bring a healing power set over a berserk set while using those particular skills, which is AGAIN all I am saying. I would like to feel some appreciation or value in having a set design to ramp my healing up instead of feeling worried that my team is going to get upset that I am harming the speed at which they kill the boss. Why is it a bad thing to have mechanics that promote the use of someone using healing power or durability but not require it?

There will be a reason once a content is challenging enough and pugs will require higher sustain to complete it. It’s simple.

That would require massive boost, players would obviously just adapt trait/skills to sustain with zerker stats and/or increase zerg size. Unless you can do damage with healing power it’s not going to happen,again plz fix conditions.

Rehero.7821:

For example having some sort of continuous damage that is just heavy enough to keep a damage oriented gear set from out sustaining it with their heal.

And this is exactly where we start running into problems. Because professions aren’t equal, profession A might be forced to invest into defensive stats but Profession B is not.
The end result is Profession A gets kicked to the curb.

Your solution will remove certain gear types from the list of viable, just to shift another gear type into the role of Optimal. At the end of the day we still have only one optimal gear set, but we’re down 4 viable gear sets. That’s a considerable net loss.

At the moment all types of gear are at the least viable. Arguably conditions need most work, it’s probably the hardest to clear a dungeon with all condition users than anything else.

edit:
Having forgotten about Assassins, Rampager and Sinister, that would bring the tally up to 4 total gear sets that would be no longer viable. And condition builds are already struggling.

Rehero.7821:

Which is cool I would be happy then. Not sure why this needed to blow up the way it did.

Anet devs said they won’t be tinkering with the old content so any cries about old dungeons are just futile. And they said we’ll get some challenging content.

Rehero.7821:

This is completely fine, however there is literally 0 reason to bring a healing power set over a berserk set while using those particular skills, which is AGAIN all I am saying. I would like to feel some appreciation or value in having a set design to ramp my healing up instead of feeling worried that my team is going to get upset that I am harming the speed at which they kill the boss. Why is it a bad thing to have mechanics that promote the use of someone using healing power or durability but not require it?

We know there is zero reason to bring a healing power set over a berserker set. The difference is that we prefer it that way. You want more gear diversity and we don’t want it. Why?

We prefer to actively use damage mitigation to not get hit over healing ourself after the hit or passively absord the hit with toughness, vitality. That doesn’t mean that only damage mitigation exist in the game, but the emphasis of the game is on damage mitigation. Its the best defense in the game by design to give a more active and pro-active gameplay. So we just don’t want healing power or toughness or vitality to become better than damage mitigation. If you remove healing power, toughness and vitality it leave you with either direct damage or condition damage stats. Which most, if not all of us would like to both be good.

There is a case to make about the possibility to have an 100% glass canon gear. Just a rough example here. Removing critical damage stats so that everybody have 150% (like most other game). So now, you could have several gear with Power, Precision and a third stats. An necromancer could be better with Power, Precision, Condition damage because he can do a lot of bleeding. A warrior could use a Power, Precision, Condition Duration gear to give more vulnerability. A Elementalist could bring a Power, Precision, Boon Duration gear to give more might and fury, etc etc. That’s a case that can be made without destroying the current gameplay.

Disclaimer : This idea is rough and have full of holes in it. I’m not advocating for it at ALL.

Rehero.7821:

How is diversity in any shape or form worse than everyone just running berserker’s because it happens to be the most efficient in pve? The suggestions I made don’t force anything simply incentivize it.

Diversity might be the key to pleasing if not everyone then at least as many as possible.

Zerker will probably always be most efficient in open world pve against trash mobs – due to their general weakness. When you can melt a mob in seconds with direct damage, no other build is really worth considering.

And if existing dungeon content is left as it is, then despite all the specious claims to the contrary in this thread, zerker will remain the most efficient for them as well.

But ANet could introduce harder content in HoT which makes non-DPS builds / roles more valuable. That content would allow players to take on different roles and the zerk crowd could continue to zerk with it. Pure direct damage would still have a place. They’d just either need to team with others who prefer or are willing to take on the other roles.

If this argument is about Dungeon runs, isn’t there a forum for that topic?

I have yet to see anyone in other areas of the game being chastised for not being “zerker meta” so this does appear to be a Dungeon run issue or am I mistaken?

Brother Grimm.5176:

If this argument is about Dungeon runs, isn’t there a forum for that topic?

I have yet to see anyone in other areas of the game being chastised for not being “zerker meta” so this does appear to be a Dungeon run issue or am I mistaken?

You are not.

I mentioned that few times but people chose to ignore that.

Brother Grimm.5176:

If this argument is about Dungeon runs, isn’t there a forum for that topic?

I have yet to see anyone in other areas of the game being chastised for not being “zerker meta” so this does appear to be a Dungeon run issue or am I mistaken?

Very true, though while I don’t openly chastise people for it, I do often think “GDI why don’t these people actually try and do some damage so we don’t fail this <insert SW boss here>” That full Nomad rifle warrior is sure doing a lot. . .

Why is stat diversity more important than build diversity? Stats don’t change gameplay other than require less active defensive. Stats don’t make roles skills and traits do. This allows more diversity and flexibility than changing gears ever could.

Brother Grimm.5176:

If this argument is about Dungeon runs, isn’t there a forum for that topic?

I have yet to see anyone in other areas of the game being chastised for not being “zerker meta” so this does appear to be a Dungeon run issue or am I mistaken?

Quite mistaken.

Isn’t it funny how I mentioned not one, but three types of content – open world PvE, dungeons and new HoT content, and you narrowed in one just that one.

Anyhow – as we’re all perfectly aware, because of GW2’s condition stacking rules multiple people running condition builds fighting the same mob can quickly run into problems in terms of optimising damage output.

So the zerker issue most definitely is not restricted to dungeons. It applies equally to players running around together in open world PvE and even moreso in zergs.

Before anyone tries to argue it doesn’t matter if you do less damage in a zerg, I’ll point out that we’re perfectly aware that it does. Which is why people join teams in zergs. Forget about event completion. Doing enough damage to mobs to trigger loot is a major concern. Especially if you consider eg. the price of silk at the moment.

Zerk is the clear best option for just about all PvE content. That’s a fact. Anyone trying to argue otherwise is being disingenuous.

tigirius.9014:

I think people have forgotten that these games are called MMORPGs for a reason. The R in RPG stands for Role as in you have a role to fulfill. This game is lacking Roles outside of the Zerker meta which is the reason why these threads have appeared since the onset of the game. They don’t have to make it mandatory but the least they could do is make it an option it’s not going to hurt the Zerker crowd in the slightest if they make it more complex.

They keep saying they want people to group well give people a reason to group that’s what people want.

After reading through not only this post but other post I’m just going to quote this one to save time.

There are so many things wrong with this first statement alone. The “R” in RPGs or MMORPGs has never once stood for combat roles. Has others have stated the role stands taking on the aspects of a person in game and playing as that person, such as the Legend of Zelda series. In fact many RPGs, like Zelda for example, require the player to think on their feet and say “what should I do in this situation?” Just because RPGs have went from table-tops to computers it has not changed what the “R” stands for. Just because I take an apple from America to Europe, it doesn’t stop being a fruit.

Second I noticed you said it works in other games, it can work in the game(paraphrasing). Just because some aspects work well in other games does not mean it’s something that should be implemented in all games. That’s why so many WoW clones ended up failing. They just tried to copy and paste the same formula that made WoW a hit and think it will work for them. Take a look at STWOR. The game was almost a direct copy and paste from WoW. Heck even some of the skills had the same name and description. Copying success is not always a guaranteed success. GW2 has made a claim for themselves with the “1 person plays all roles”.

While I will admit zerker is indeed the meta it does not mean it is the best. Meta here is simply what you can play that provides the most results with little to no work put into it. That’s why at the start so many warriors were walking around with full sigs with traits that gave them bonuses for unused sigs. This does not mean the other stat options are not viable. It’s just that there are people that would rather go with the easier option of “standing in one spot and auto attack” instead of playing something that requires a little more battle presence like a proper WoR placement or a well timed Time Warp.

The biggest problem resides in the over-world PvE. The mobs offer no challenge beyond auto-attack. Judging from a few interviews with Colin it looks like they are making changes to that as well. Hopefully soon people will begin to understand that raw deeps is not the only solution.

Caeledh.5437:

thefantasticg.3984:

You say lies but provide no proof to the contrary…

The proof is in the game. It shouldn’t need to be spelled out. These claims are positively ludicrous.

Right now at this very moment there are multiple threads on the first page of this forum complaining about the lack of diversity in GW2’s pve. Zerk this, zerk that. What about poor old condition damage? Make non-DPS roles viable. Etc. etc.

The vast majority of dungeon runs are zerk runs. The vast majority of players wear zerk gear. The most expensive crafting mats are zerk ones. The game design specifically favours DPS and specifically zerk by the way it deals with condition stacking. GW2 explicitly set out to do away with the trinity – as the OP points out – and they succeeded.

These are facts.

I am not a “zerk”-only fan, but the truth is that it’s super easy to make your own groups, specifying what kind of players you are looking for. “Non-elite, not a speed run, all professions welcome”; notes like that.

That “vast” majority of players tend to be sheep, copying builds and what’s supposed to be “optimal”, and the more ignorant ones can be rude and/or jerks, even without the skill to support their meta-driven, chosen gear. There’s nothing wrong with the “zerk” meta per se, but many play “zerk” because they think they are “supposed to”, without really mastering the style first-and fail a lot (especially because such playstyle thrives on encounter knowledge and perfect party synergy-the more good Berserker’s gear players, the better.) This is the “majority” you speak of, which end up being lots of LFG ads-just ignore them, as they often are not even “true-meta”, so to speak.

Ultimately, no one has the right to tell you what or how to play (granted that you don’t agree to their rules by joining a “meta” group.) Learn the game, play well, but do it your own way-if you don’t like the meta, don’t play the meta nor join their parties (I know I don’t, no offense intended.) They have the right to play their own way (“meta” or whatever), as much as you do.

I find there are tons of build variety, to be honest with you, but many people are getting carried away by a pseudo-meta mentality that not even the developers support nor have ever stated as “the right way” to play PvE content. There are ways to play quasi-tanks and/or quasi-healers, as well as things in between, even if they may never be part of the current meta.

Of course I would welcome PvE content that makes people more amenable to different sorts of stats as a whole, but I cannot say that there isn’t build variety-just a lack of need for these diverse builds where the meta-which I don’t care about-is concerned. Do note that even in trinity games, many (though certainly not all) people feel proud of DPSing for whatever reason, and often belittle the other roles, seeing them as “necessary evils” to increase/maintain their own DPS, so DPS infatuation will never end, whatever ANet does with PvE in the future.

(Even now, non-zerk combinations and builds can be valuable in many PvE, non WvW situations, even if “not wanted” for “meta” Dungeon content.)