Guild Wars 2

A long time ago, there was an MMO that advertised itself out there to be “the” casual player mmo. This mmo promised it would create content that would be designed for relaxing and open social gameplay, the ability to play with friends without having to, the ability to do dungeon runs that werent frustrating or tedious, a massive world vs world vs world pvp mode that encouraged thousands to play. Huge map wide raids were also a big deal in these casual event systems designed to help casual gamers play with other casual gamers.

It also introduced a level based pvp system entirley seperate from its main game with an entirely class-balance based focus on that pvp system.

That game also had a decent roleplaying community on at least 2 major servers prior to the introduction of mega-servers and a number of other new additions to the game.

It also promised that absoleutley no content in the game would be a tedious chore.

It lied.

GW2, What ever you promised to be, you need to keep it, screw this “1%” minority that are into e-sports, and raiding 24/7 this isnt WoW just abbandon that entirley and focus on the people that “do” care about the game, and “do” care about it surviving longer than 3 months.

GW2 was the first MMO SINCE World of Warcraft I could activly play for more than just a month, I felt a certain satisfaction in exploring the world, doing random questsa t my own pace and leisure, having the options to see Tyria at my own adventuring pace.

Now, I feel like the game wants me to rush into content, get my ascended mats, aquire legendaries, 5000 acheivement points minimum and alot more content thats just locked behind farming for content so that an kitten group of stowaways from other MMO’s can have their moment to shine.

Can we please, PLEASE go back to what MADE GW2 special in the first place.

Going forward, GW2 needs to abbandon this “challenging group content” kitten and “e-sport pvp ladder” system and just focus on what MADE GW2 special.

Its a game, people can play at their own leisure for fun, with nothing overly complicated about that at all.

Season 2 did this ALOT better than HoT did.

Going into Season 3 and future expansions, I would seriously hope A-net goes BACK to what made the games CORE gameplay special.

I want a game that isnt just another WoW clone, dont become another wow clone, A-net.

Amen!
They gave a big middle finger to their mission statement, to what this game was that drew so many here, and to many well-paying customers like me.

Exactly where are you forced by the game to need ascended to do content other than high level fractals? Player created requirements do not count. I could require all players to fight with pink armor but that doesn’t mean it’s actually required for that content.

You can complete all content, other than raids, in whatever build that you want. Everything on the HoT maps can now be done in whatever build you want. Every class can complete any of the HoT content. I’ve done map completion, ran the story, and done metas with all of them. You can do PvP and WvW in any build that you want. Yes, some builds will be more effective than others.

Things that people claimed weren’t casual friendly pre-HoT:

Fractals (3 mini dungeons plus a boss?! I don’t have time for that I play 20min a day, I’m casual!)
Dungeons (I can’t get into a group because I don’t have zerk gear and I don’t speedrun! I’m casual!)
World completion (why do we have to do WvW for world completion, I’m casual, I don’t like PvP!)
Story-mode finale (I need a group to finish the story?! what the heck Anet! I’m too casual for that!)
Living Story S1 (these LS events are timed?! You’re saying I can’t do all of the achievements within the 2 weeks if I only play 10min a day?! I’m casual, wtf ANET!
Living Story S2 (wtf Anet, I didn’t log in when these were released because I’m super casual, and now you want me to grind gold so I can trade for gems? I’m casual! I don’t have the time nor money to do this!)
Dailies (Whoa, Anet, look at how long it’s taking to do these dailies! And I have to do it to get laurels?! I’m only on for 2min a day! I can’t possibly get all of this AP that you are forcing me to get! Make it casual friendly!)

I think a lot of people think that casual friendly means everything needs to be able to be completed quickly or easily. A casual player does not imply a bad player, it implies someone that plays at their own, typically slow, pace. Being able to do things at your own pace: that’s the definition of being casual friendly.

In GW2 you can do literally everything at your own pace (minus holiday events, as those are time limited). That is casual friendly. Raids is the only area that I would say has the biggest obstacle to casual players, and that’s getting a 10man group together.

I’d love to hear what exactly in GW2 you couldn’t do at your own, casual, pace.

If something takes a long time, it doesn’t mean it isn’t casual friendly, it just means it will take longer to complete, but it can still be 100% casual.

People claimed crafting legendaries wasn’t casual, but I can assure you I crafted two from scratch, casually, over the course of 2 years. Some days I felt like working towards a requirement, some days I didn’t. I dictated the pace I completed things. THAT IS CASUAL.

Before HoT, I always had a legitimate chance of acquiring a festival or event skin. The requirements were sensible.

Since HoT, I present Nightfury and Winter’s Presence….. The requirements for these skins are just nauseating.

When people talk about the grind in HoT, this is exactly the kind of thing they are talking about. You either have to grind for those drinks during the festival OR spend a ton of gold on drinks( cynical gold sinks also a trend since HoT)

On a side note Jumping puzzle requirement is crap. Prior to HoT jp’s were just a sideshow attraction. HoT is trying to turn my rpg into a platformer and that sucks.

Draknar.5748:

Things that people claimed weren’t casual friendly pre-HoT:

Fractals (3 mini dungeons plus a boss?! I don’t have time for that I play 20min a day, I’m casual!)
Dungeons (I can’t get into a group because I don’t have zerk gear and I don’t speedrun! I’m casual!)
World completion (why do we have to do WvW for world completion, I’m casual, I don’t like PvP!)
Story-mode finale (I need a group to finish the story?! what the heck Anet! I’m too casual for that!)
Living Story S1 (these LS events are timed?! You’re saying I can’t do all of the achievements within the 2 weeks if I only play 10min a day?! I’m casual, wtf ANET!
Living Story S2 (wtf Anet, I didn’t log in when these were released because I’m super casual, and now you want me to grind gold so I can trade for gems? I’m casual! I don’t have the time nor money to do this!)
Dailies (Whoa, Anet, look at how long it’s taking to do these dailies! And I have to do it to get laurels?! I’m only on for 2min a day! I can’t possibly get all of this AP that you are forcing me to get! Make it casual friendly!)

I think a lot of people think that casual friendly means everything needs to be able to be completed quickly or easily. A casual player does not imply a bad player, it implies someone that plays at their own, typically slow, pace. Being able to do things at your own pace: that’s the definition of being casual friendly.

In GW2 you can do literally everything at your own pace (minus holiday events, as those are time limited). That is casual friendly. Raids is the only area that I would say has the biggest obstacle to casual players, and that’s getting a 10man group together.

I’d love to hear what exactly in GW2 you couldn’t do at your own, casual, pace.

If something takes a long time, it doesn’t mean it isn’t casual friendly, it just means it will take longer to complete, but it can still be 100% casual.

People claimed crafting legendaries wasn’t casual, but I can assure you I crafted two from scratch, casually, over the course of 2 years. Some days I felt like working towards a requirement, some days I didn’t. I dictated the pace I completed things. THAT IS CASUAL.

/thread

Seriously I think I am going to copy this and paste it whenever someone brings up this “once upon a time in GW2” or “HoT too hardcorez” threads.

The core game people had tons of complaints about things not being casual enough for them. I have come to the conclusion since the release of HoT that many players of this game just wanted another Fallout or Skyrim where they can set the difficulty extremely low, mod anything challenging out, and just watch Netflix while they chase butterflies/radioactive butterflies and their numbers go up.

progressquest.com <- This is the ultimate game for those players. SO MUCH PROGRESS!

I am extremely casual in the way I play the game. A normal played day was about 8 hours on a worknight and about 14 per day on a weekend.

I was excited to see that legendary armor was going to be added, but they are locked behind a single way to obtain them, and this is a way that is entirely NOT casual. I have no interest in grouping with other players for their “skilled” event. I don’t even group with players when just farming world bosses. But I can still join in the event even without their permission or consent.

I would much rather play solo and “casually” join a group for an open world event rather than need to study and learn an encounter so that I can assist beating the redundant AI in an instance where we are limited in the number of people to bring.

Draknar.5748:

Things that people claimed weren’t casual friendly pre-HoT:

Fractals (3 mini dungeons plus a boss?! I don’t have time for that I play 20min a day, I’m casual!)
Dungeons (I can’t get into a group because I don’t have zerk gear and I don’t speedrun! I’m casual!)
World completion (why do we have to do WvW for world completion, I’m casual, I don’t like PvP!)
Story-mode finale (I need a group to finish the story?! what the heck Anet! I’m too casual for that!)
Living Story S1 (these LS events are timed?! You’re saying I can’t do all of the achievements within the 2 weeks if I only play 10min a day?! I’m casual, wtf ANET!
Living Story S2 (wtf Anet, I didn’t log in when these were released because I’m super casual, and now you want me to grind gold so I can trade for gems? I’m casual! I don’t have the time nor money to do this!)
Dailies (Whoa, Anet, look at how long it’s taking to do these dailies! And I have to do it to get laurels?! I’m only on for 2min a day! I can’t possibly get all of this AP that you are forcing me to get! Make it casual friendly!)

I think a lot of people think that casual friendly means everything needs to be able to be completed quickly or easily. A casual player does not imply a bad player, it implies someone that plays at their own, typically slow, pace. Being able to do things at your own pace: that’s the definition of being casual friendly.

In GW2 you can do literally everything at your own pace (minus holiday events, as those are time limited). That is casual friendly. Raids is the only area that I would say has the biggest obstacle to casual players, and that’s getting a 10man group together.

I’d love to hear what exactly in GW2 you couldn’t do at your own, casual, pace.

If something takes a long time, it doesn’t mean it isn’t casual friendly, it just means it will take longer to complete, but it can still be 100% casual.

People claimed crafting legendaries wasn’t casual, but I can assure you I crafted two from scratch, casually, over the course of 2 years. Some days I felt like working towards a requirement, some days I didn’t. I dictated the pace I completed things. THAT IS CASUAL.

Million…Million times this.

And the worst part is that by addressing and keeping to the formula they had for 3 years, GW2 would never be able to sustain for a long time since the dedicated folks that wanted more challenge would never receive it would end up leaving, despite the fact GW2 has one of the best combat systems in an MMO ever. The casual players wane out over time, seeing the same old ‘new content’ that doesn’t do anything but provide skins maybe. What incentive is there to stick around without long-term goals? Why play?

Arenanet needed to included challenging content, and slightly up the difficulty in open-world. We are a few months into Heart of Thorns, players have finally got these maps covered, they have seen and dare say met the challenges facing them. People need to realize that by surviving and playing in the jungle and succeeding at events and exploration, they have subtly gotten better at the game than they were before HoT. Most definitely, they had to adjust or else!

Now if only they made the HoT maps naturally fill to say Hard Cap before creating a new instance, rework the player instance entrances a bit, and I believe the open-world HoT would be just dandy!

Game still is casual-friendly … nothing pre-HoT that was casual friendly has changed post-HoT. Seems like a case of people inventing their own definitions to QQ moar.

The casuals, loved this game because it was casual, we could accomplish things at our own pace while juggling work, family and other real life commitments.

If we had time to grind, I’m sure we would have gone with WoW, which is what GW2 is becoming, so why not just play WoW when that has everything already set up? I know a few people who left for WoW on those basis. I’d join them if I had time to grind.

There is absolutely NO doubt that this game was advertised as casual oriented. Play your way, no grind, no gear treadmill.

What are all those diehard hardcores doing here in the first place?
Oh thats right: Vocal hardcores NEED wins – Winning, in this case, being every game catering to their specific needs.

Well it’s ok, you lot can have this game too. No sarcasm: I’ve had some good times here and probably will again once the ship starts zagging back where it zigged off.

CaptainVanguard.4925:

Going forward, GW2 needs to abbandon this “challenging group content” kitten and “e-sport pvp ladder” system and just focus on what MADE GW2 special.

Its a game, people can play at their own leisure for fun, with nothing overly complicated about that at all.

Because screw the players who actually want the game to be interesting and challenging, am I right!!!! Even now most of the game is extremely easy. Dungeons are easy, Low level fractals are easy, Core Tyria is easy. Heart of Thorns is more challenging for the average players, but much of it’s content is still relatively easy and completable with PuGs. The most significant ascended gear is trinkets/rings/amulets which are EASY to get. Ranked PvP, legendary weapons, ascended armor/weapons, coordinated groups, etc. ARE NOT REQUIRED to play almost all of GW2. Stop being so selfish and realize that the hardcore players want something to do as well.

sephiroth.4217:

The casuals, loved this game because it was casual, we could accomplish things at our own pace while juggling work, family and other real life commitments.

If we had time to grind, I’m sure we would have gone with WoW, which is what GW2 is becoming, so why not just play WoW when that has everything already set up? I know a few people who left for WoW on those basis. I’d join them if I had time to grind.

You pretty much prove right there why casual people still play GW2 … because they don’t need to grind to get things they want.

Gilburt.9146:

CaptainVanguard.4925:

Going forward, GW2 needs to abbandon this “challenging group content” kitten and “e-sport pvp ladder” system and just focus on what MADE GW2 special.

Its a game, people can play at their own leisure for fun, with nothing overly complicated about that at all.

Because screw the players who actually want the game to be interesting and challenging, am I right!!!! Even now most of the game is extremely easy. Dungeons are easy, Low level fractals are easy, Core Tyria is easy. Heart of Thorns is more challenging for the average players, but much of it’s content is still relatively easy and completable with PuGs. The most significant ascended gear is trinkets/rings/amulets which are EASY to get. Ranked PvP, legendary weapons, ascended armor/weapons, coordinated groups, etc. ARE NOT REQUIRED to play almost all of GW2. Stop being so selfish and realize that the hardcore players want something to do as well.

Good luck convincing them, I really don’t get why people don’t want SOME tougher open world content. there needs to be a curve/hill that lets people progress into the tougher content like dungeons, fractals, and raids if they want to. Right now it’s just a wall leading into each thing. And plus making everything easy means that things will require more and more mats to keep everyone from having legendary gear.

sephiroth.4217:

The casuals, loved this game because it was casual, we could accomplish things at our own pace while juggling work, family and other real life commitments.

You can still do any of it at your own pace. It just might take longer than you want it to. And that is not ANet’s problem.

CaptainVanguard.4925:

A long time ago, there was an MMO that advertised itself out there to be “the” casual player mmo. This mmo promised it would create content that would be designed for relaxing and open social gameplay, the ability to play with friends without having to, the ability to do dungeon runs that werent frustrating or tedious, a massive world vs world vs world pvp mode that encouraged thousands to play. Huge map wide raids were also a big deal in these casual event systems designed to help casual gamers play with other casual gamers.

It also introduced a level based pvp system entirley seperate from its main game with an entirely class-balance based focus on that pvp system.

That game also had a decent roleplaying community on at least 2 major servers prior to the introduction of mega-servers and a number of other new additions to the game.

It also promised that absoleutley no content in the game would be a tedious chore.

It lied.

GW2, What ever you promised to be, you need to keep it, screw this “1%” minority that are into e-sports, and raiding 24/7 this isnt WoW just abbandon that entirley and focus on the people that “do” care about the game, and “do” care about it surviving longer than 3 months.

GW2 was the first MMO SINCE World of Warcraft I could activly play for more than just a month, I felt a certain satisfaction in exploring the world, doing random questsa t my own pace and leisure, having the options to see Tyria at my own adventuring pace.

Now, I feel like the game wants me to rush into content, get my ascended mats, aquire legendaries, 5000 acheivement points minimum and alot more content thats just locked behind farming for content so that an kitten group of stowaways from other MMO’s can have their moment to shine.

Can we please, PLEASE go back to what MADE GW2 special in the first place.

Going forward, GW2 needs to abbandon this “challenging group content” kitten and “e-sport pvp ladder” system and just focus on what MADE GW2 special.

Its a game, people can play at their own leisure for fun, with nothing overly complicated about that at all.

Season 2 did this ALOT better than HoT did.

Going into Season 3 and future expansions, I would seriously hope A-net goes BACK to what made the games CORE gameplay special.

I want a game that isnt just another WoW clone, dont become another wow clone, A-net.

What you fail to realize friend is that Anet is running a business- if the original approach they took was working so well they wouldn’t have had to try something else.

Obviously they think they can make more money by attempting to change these things – they might be wrong or they might be right – time will tell.

The one thing you should take out is that things were definitely not going as good as they could have with the old model – if they had there would have been no reason to change it and take a risk when the company would have been doing great financially.

It’s all about the money.

You are right on target, friend!

Yep, it’s all about the money. I withhold mine until they revert to their original philosophy. Platforming and gated content isn’t a direction for the game that excites me.

Ayrilana.1396:

Exactly where are you forced by the game to need ascended to do content other than high level fractals? Player created requirements do not count. I could require all players to fight with pink armor but that doesn’t mean it’s actually required for that content.

You can complete all content, other than raids, in whatever build that you want. Everything on the HoT maps can now be done in whatever build you want. Every class can complete any of the HoT content. I’ve done map completion, ran the story, and done metas with all of them. You can do PvP and WvW in any build that you want. Yes, some builds will be more effective than others.

Why are you excluding player-created requirements? Raids are out of the question unless you have maxed your gear, because there are no teams that will allow you to come with them. You are excluding the main source of angst over this.

Dashingsteel.3410:

Before HoT, I always had a legitimate chance of acquiring a festival or event skin. The requirements were sensible.

Since HoT, I present Nightfury and Winter’s Presence….. The requirements for these skins are just nauseating.

When people talk about the grind in HoT, this is exactly the kind of thing they are talking about. You either have to grind for those drinks during the festival OR spend a ton of gold on drinks( cynical gold sinks also a trend since HoT)

On a side note Jumping puzzle requirement is crap. Prior to HoT jp’s were just a sideshow attraction. HoT is trying to turn my rpg into a platformer and that sucks.

Case in point, the Halloween back piece from 2012:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mad_Memoires:_Complete_Edition

Was received after doing a quest involving going places, defeating evil and generally just playing with other players. Everyone that tried to get one had one. There was no elitism involved and the gold sink/grind was non-existent.

Fast forward 3 years and we have nightfury

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Nightfury_Skin

Does nobody at ANet see the difference here? I know I sure do!

It is still very casual friendly, just not friendly to bad players who are unwilling to improve. Casual does not equal bad player. Even players with a low amount of time can play very well if they desire.

Andred.1087:

You can still do any of it at your own pace. It just might take longer than you want it to. And that is not ANet’s problem.

No, we can’t. HoT is gated behind things that require a lot of other people on a strict clock.

And, we can’t go back because the rewards have been crushed.

Malediktus.9250:

It is still very casual friendly, just not friendly to bad players who are unwilling to improve. Casual does not equal bad player. Even players with a low amount of time can play very well if they desire.

And that in a nutshell is the problem with the direction ANet has taken. When it was first introduced it was advertised as the game for those that don’t like the traditional MMO. Friendly atmosphere, no grind, no “I swing a sword again”.

But the current iteration is EXACTLY what many of us were running away from!

The entire “get gud” attitude was something I never wanted to see in this game, now it seems that GW2 is no better than any other WOW clone out there.

First of all, Anet never advertised this game as a casual game, that’s completed invented by the character. Secondly Anet never said there would be no content that didn’t require a grind. They did say a bunch of things which one could construe to use things, but to say they advertised this game this way is a bit disingenous.

What they advertised with a living/breathing world with dynamic events at the center of that world. That was the add.

It’s true that you described what the game was. It’s not true that you described what the game advertised.

The problem here isn’t that Anet advertised a specific game. The problem is is that Anet allowed the game to evolve without remembering their core constituency (for lack of a better word).

From Anet’s point of view, they had the casual game down, but people were screaming for harder content. Not just a couple of people either. Too many people were saying the game was braindead easy. That was what was missing from the game and that was what Anet added.

Because I still play the game, pretty much exactly the same way I played it 3 years ago.

On the festival rewards, however, I agree with you. That was definitely over done.

Daddicus.6128:

Ayrilana.1396:

Exactly where are you forced by the game to need ascended to do content other than high level fractals? Player created requirements do not count. I could require all players to fight with pink armor but that doesn’t mean it’s actually required for that content.

You can complete all content, other than raids, in whatever build that you want. Everything on the HoT maps can now be done in whatever build you want. Every class can complete any of the HoT content. I’ve done map completion, ran the story, and done metas with all of them. You can do PvP and WvW in any build that you want. Yes, some builds will be more effective than others.

Why are you excluding player-created requirements? Raids are out of the question unless you have maxed your gear, because there are no teams that will allow you to come with them. You are excluding the main source of angst over this.

…Because as a player you can make your own rules for doing the raid? You are blaming the wrong people here if you are instigating that Arenanet should be accountable for Player Requirements, this is happening way too much. Even Arenanet said that these raids aren’t meant to be done with any pick-up group, rather guilds will have much more success. Why? It might be because guilds have players that have worked together for some time on various other activities, and know each other’s strengths and weaknesses. They can meet the challenge easily, and know very well what their gear requirement for their friends and guildmates will be to complete the raid.

Pick-up groups don’t. And thus we are seeing people scrambling over themselves making these one-time deal groups and fail, and blame the gear rather than themselves. Players will blame literally EVERYTHING else but themselves, that is precisely the biggest problem underlying everything with HoT, people are just too stubborn to learn. Even though, EVEN though the majority of the content in game isn’t even remotely close to the level of challenge of raiding.

I sincerely hope the Gerent Nerf is the last PvE nerf we will see for HoT.

Firstly, WOW Vayne actually (more or less) agrees with a couple of posts from me.

Secondly, weather or not it was advertised (still debatable IMO) as being grind free, it was advertised as being an MMO unlike any other one out there, which it is not anymore. I do know that if for 2 years if I was eating soft boiled eggs and then someone replaced them with pickled eggs I might just be a bit upset. It is not even up for debate that they nerfed all rewards when HoT came out so, NO, it is not the same game I played at launch.

Thirdly, ANet may have though they had their core down, but as these forum, and my now empty guild, have shown they have misjudged.

And finally, even though many many players including yourself still play, it does in no way make their decision the correct one IMO.

Edit to add:

I also liked to see the creatures in the world get a buff, but I did not want all the new maps to be locked behind timers in the process. I also don’t mind that they added raids (kinda), but in the process they locked out all the rewards that they offer to the exclusivity of raiding, hence adding elitism that was not (usually) there in PvE.

Harper.4173:

CaptainVanguard.4925:

A long time ago, there was an MMO that advertised itself out there to be “the” casual player mmo. This mmo promised it would create content that would be designed for relaxing and open social gameplay, the ability to play with friends without having to, the ability to do dungeon runs that werent frustrating or tedious, a massive world vs world vs world pvp mode that encouraged thousands to play. Huge map wide raids were also a big deal in these casual event systems designed to help casual gamers play with other casual gamers.

It also introduced a level based pvp system entirley seperate from its main game with an entirely class-balance based focus on that pvp system.

That game also had a decent roleplaying community on at least 2 major servers prior to the introduction of mega-servers and a number of other new additions to the game.

It also promised that absoleutley no content in the game would be a tedious chore.

It lied.

GW2, What ever you promised to be, you need to keep it, screw this “1%” minority that are into e-sports, and raiding 24/7 this isnt WoW just abbandon that entirley and focus on the people that “do” care about the game, and “do” care about it surviving longer than 3 months.

GW2 was the first MMO SINCE World of Warcraft I could activly play for more than just a month, I felt a certain satisfaction in exploring the world, doing random questsa t my own pace and leisure, having the options to see Tyria at my own adventuring pace.

Now, I feel like the game wants me to rush into content, get my ascended mats, aquire legendaries, 5000 acheivement points minimum and alot more content thats just locked behind farming for content so that an kitten group of stowaways from other MMO’s can have their moment to shine.

Can we please, PLEASE go back to what MADE GW2 special in the first place.

Going forward, GW2 needs to abbandon this “challenging group content” kitten and “e-sport pvp ladder” system and just focus on what MADE GW2 special.

Its a game, people can play at their own leisure for fun, with nothing overly complicated about that at all.

Season 2 did this ALOT better than HoT did.

Going into Season 3 and future expansions, I would seriously hope A-net goes BACK to what made the games CORE gameplay special.

I want a game that isnt just another WoW clone, dont become another wow clone, A-net.

What you fail to realize friend is that Anet is running a business- if the original approach they took was working so well they wouldn’t have had to try something else.

Obviously they think they can make more money by attempting to change these things – they might be wrong or they might be right – time will tell.

The one thing you should take out is that things were definitely not going as good as they could have with the old model – if they had there would have been no reason to change it and take a risk when the company would have been doing great financially.

It’s all about the money.

I’m sure money is a great motivator. However, I believe that professional pride was also involved. Years of disdain in the many “face-roll easy” posts about the game had to sting. I believe the thinking was along the lines of, "We’ve got the whole of central Tyria for the people who like that kind of thing. Silverwastes was a big success, so HoT will offer more of that type of meta (with changes), more challenging monsters in the zones, raids for the real “we want challenge” people and Tyria Masteries should keep busy the people who will find HoT to be more than they want."

Daddicus.6128:

Ayrilana.1396:

Exactly where are you forced by the game to need ascended to do content other than high level fractals? Player created requirements do not count. I could require all players to fight with pink armor but that doesn’t mean it’s actually required for that content.

You can complete all content, other than raids, in whatever build that you want. Everything on the HoT maps can now be done in whatever build you want. Every class can complete any of the HoT content. I’ve done map completion, ran the story, and done metas with all of them. You can do PvP and WvW in any build that you want. Yes, some builds will be more effective than others.

Why are you excluding player-created requirements? Raids are out of the question unless you have maxed your gear, because there are no teams that will allow you to come with them. You are excluding the main source of angst over this.

Because if the meta were to be that players needed to wear pink armor to do raids, that would not mean that they could not be completed without that. It’s a player made restriction that has nothing to do with the design of the raids.

Daddicus.6128:

Andred.1087:

You can still do any of it at your own pace. It just might take longer than you want it to. And that is not ANet’s problem.

No, we can’t. HoT is gated behind things that require a lot of other people on a strict clock.

And, we can’t go back because the rewards have been crushed.

That would be rewards and not content. The vast majority of rewards can be earned without needing other players.

What rewards are gated other than the Rev head piece and what involves DS.

I remember, as some posters in this thread have pointed out, Anet saying something to the effect of, “if you do not like other mmos you will want to try gw2.”

But they also said, as certain posters in this thread seem to have forgotten, that if you like other mmos you will want to give gw2 a try.

I have never seen a statement or advertisement from Anet claimig that gw2 was intended solely for casual play/players.

For the players demanding “challenging” content, the problem is when this kind of content becomes mandatory for everyone.

The outcry would not have been so much (at least in the Forums. I rarely see complaints in-game) if certain things were left, as was the way before, to player discretion. We all had choices leading to HoTS. We could all, eventually, become useful members of Tyrian adventuring society, in our own pace, in our own way.

But the way certain things are done post-expansion, it seems like the game is highly catered to people with (1) lots of time, (2) lots of money and/or (3) lots of… skills.

Like, say… WoW. To get to the good stuff and experience the story of each expansion in its full, you had to not only participate in raids but be both (a) competent in them, (b) equipped for them, © specced for them.

Whether or not it was advertised, GW2 showed in the almost two years I’ve played that it… respects my playstyle: the solo casual. Weird in an MMO being a soloist, but it’s there. I’ve sent a decent amount of money to ANet because I grew to love this game. And because I’m such a magpie (might buy my 4th Bank Tab).

Extra gating of “challenging” content could have been done so we casuals won’t stumble onto them and be shown our lack of skillz. And I would be the first to tell the devs that people who go for such content should get a commensurate reward.

The problem is that NECESSARY content is behind this challenging content.

I think only the whiny casuals really, really think the HoTS maps are impossible. I jumped in early at live and tried to persevere. I respecced builds that did okay for me before. I was doing fine.

But it was tiring.

This is a game. A good deal of us play it for fun and relaxation, not to be just as tired as we were when we left school or the office. Do you hardcore players even understand the kind of feeling a casual feels in participating in a World Boss Hunt, a successful Teq, or contributing in WvW? It’s great. It makes you feel like you did something awesome, especially if your IRL was bloody crappy.

You have a right to your challenges. We have a right to our fun.

We don’t have to be debating this because this game could do it at the same time. Look at the Raids. It CAN be done.

The problem, to point it out again, is that they forced us to stand together to deal with content YOU like.

Of course that’s going to be a problem.

I haven’t gone to Verdant in weeks. The most “challenging” I’ve done is Silverwastes early in the cycle and trying to contribute to Teq with a 4k ping. Except for the last one, it was actually fun.

I think some people are confusing lazy with casual.
Casual means you barely even care about most of the things offered by the game and just want to have fun the couple of hours (or less) that you usually play.

As stated by others already, none of the harder content is mandatory. You just want the shinies at the end and that tricks you into thinking the content is mandatory.
Basically, if you think it’s too much work just stop working towards it.

The only thing that is not for casuals is the raid, if you ask me. HoT maps are only hard if you try to solo everything. Get a group together and you’ll be fine.

I think it’s great that Anet is trying to cater to both casuals and “hardcore” players. I see some players on my f-list who are utterly addicted to the new raid and do it nearly everyday. They have never been happier. Why take that away from them?

Gw is now a game for everyone, not just casuals. And there are many types of casuals that partake in content OP regard as hardcore.

Draknar.5748:

I’d love to hear what exactly in GW2 you couldn’t do at your own, casual, pace.

Me too…also…having some goals in the game that aren’t casual doesn’t break any statement because you know, there aren’t only the casual in the game!
You can experience almost anything at your pace and leisure…what are people really complaining about? I feel the world is going upside down, people don’t want to give a bit of work into things and everything as to be done lazily. WTF world, wake up.

Core game is still casual-friendly but HoT is definitely not.
The mistake they made is to launch an expansion that is so dramatically different to the core game.

Kampilan.3895:

The problem is that NECESSARY content is behind this challenging content.

Please explain, what exactly is necessary that is locked behind challenging content?

Why about this kind of thread again.

I can’t help but everytime i saw this kind of post i have to come in and say…

I am totally agree. Amen to that.

Kampilan.3895:

But the way certain things are done post-expansion, it seems like the game is highly catered to people with (1) lots of time, (2) lots of money and/or (3) lots of… skills.

I guess what we are attempting to find out here is what are you perceiving as ‘a lot of time’ spent?

We both can agree the content in HoT is a step up in difficulty going in solo, if you can’t manage it float along with the groups out there, or party up with friends or whatever. The lots of money factor has always existed, players who spent money always got a massive lead on everything beforehand.

But Time? What time factor are we talking here? Some of your examples of ‘casual content that is still entertaining’ like Tequatl / World bosses can still be done, but you know that kind of train is time-gated well before HoT. Yet you can say players who only had an hour to play couldn’t easily do certain things before, should we cater all content to even the set of players who can’t be online for more than an hour every other day or less?

Outside of these holiday events, the only difference between players with a lot of time on their hands to play, versus a little, is how fast you get what you want logically speaking. It HELPS to be more skillful so you do not fail at the content so much, but by no means is it REQUIRED as long as you keep improving through repeat attempts. That’s is what we are saying, there is still a majority of the content that is Casual-Friendly.

…As for WvW, don’t worry, not even Hardcore WvWers are really in there right now except to K-Train. That mode needs a massive stimulus.

Unless GW2 has underwear dance parties on a regular basis, it’s not casual in the slightest.

Tommyknocker.6089:

Malediktus.9250:

It is still very casual friendly, just not friendly to bad players who are unwilling to improve. Casual does not equal bad player. Even players with a low amount of time can play very well if they desire.

And that in a nutshell is the problem with the direction ANet has taken. When it was first introduced it was advertised as the game for those that don’t like the traditional MMO. Friendly atmosphere, no grind, no “I swing a sword again”.

But the current iteration is EXACTLY what many of us were running away from!

The entire “get gud” attitude was something I never wanted to see in this game, now it seems that GW2 is no better than any other WOW clone out there.

Anet is making a game for everyone. I would assume the top 10% of the active playerbase puts in over 50% of the total hours played. So if Anet would bore them away, the (ultra) casuals would have much less people to play with.

The casuals, loved this game because it was casual, we could accomplish things at our own pace while juggling work, family and other real life commitments.

Still doing this to this day. Play 1 maybe 2 hours a day and about 3-4 hours over the on the weekends. Have completed my Dark Harvest for my Reaper, crafted 4-5 ascended weapons across my characters, killed the first raid boss with a PUG, have around 60 mastery levels (Never done any CoF farming either) and am climbing my way up fractals. That’s all since HoT launched.

This game is still very casual.

There are some things that are frustrating as a player with little time (Map metas all tied to timers). But things like event skins being huge resource sinks are the least of my worries. People that play this game a lot more than I do need something to work towards and I’m glad they have that now.

Malediktus.9250:

I would assume the top 10% of the active playerbase puts in over 50% of the total hours played.

That’s one heck of an assumption.

I used to considered this the best MMO ever and infact prior to HoT I rarely said a bad word about it….well that’s changed with this expansion; I can’t say one positive thing about the HoT.

I could say almost the exact opposite. GW2 was a MMO with some good ideas with mediocre execution and a very shallow end game. HoT has revitalized the game for me by expanding that end game to something that actually tests me somewhat. I do have my own issues with some of the content but overall I’m ecstatic about HoT and the direction they are going in.

kratan.4619:

I am extremely casual in the way I play the game. A normal played day was about 8 hours on a worknight and about 14 per day on a weekend.

I was excited to see that legendary armor was going to be added, but they are locked behind a single way to obtain them, and this is a way that is entirely NOT casual. I have no interest in grouping with other players for their “skilled” event. I don’t even group with players when just farming world bosses. But I can still join in the event even without their permission or consent.

I would much rather play solo and “casually” join a group for an open world event rather than need to study and learn an encounter so that I can assist beating the redundant AI in an instance where we are limited in the number of people to bring.

Solo and Casual are not the same things.

Malediktus.9250:

Tommyknocker.6089:

Malediktus.9250:

It is still very casual friendly, just not friendly to bad players who are unwilling to improve. Casual does not equal bad player. Even players with a low amount of time can play very well if they desire.

And that in a nutshell is the problem with the direction ANet has taken. When it was first introduced it was advertised as the game for those that don’t like the traditional MMO. Friendly atmosphere, no grind, no “I swing a sword again”.

But the current iteration is EXACTLY what many of us were running away from!

The entire “get gud” attitude was something I never wanted to see in this game, now it seems that GW2 is no better than any other WOW clone out there.

Anet is making a game for everyone. I would assume the top 10% of the active playerbase puts in over 50% of the total hours played. So if Anet would bore them away, the (ultra) casuals would have much less people to play with.

Ah yes, but I am positive you would never hear any of them yelling “GET GUD NUB” in map chat. And in all honesty, I would play that game, unlike just logging in for dailies like I do now.

Tommyknocker.6089:

Malediktus.9250:

It is still very casual friendly, just not friendly to bad players who are unwilling to improve. Casual does not equal bad player. Even players with a low amount of time can play very well if they desire.

And that in a nutshell is the problem with the direction ANet has taken. When it was first introduced it was advertised as the game for those that don’t like the traditional MMO. Friendly atmosphere, no grind, no “I swing a sword again”.

But the current iteration is EXACTLY what many of us were running away from!

The entire “get gud” attitude was something I never wanted to see in this game, now it seems that GW2 is no better than any other WOW clone out there.

Good luck finding any MMO that can survive long term, without any type of challenging content for their players.

DoctorDing.5890:

Malediktus.9250:

I would assume the top 10% of the active playerbase puts in over 50% of the total hours played.

That’s one heck of an assumption.

No it isnt, Anet said a while ago, that on average an active account plays less than 1 hour a day (way before 10€ accounts and f2p, but cant find the source right now), but most of my friendlist plays many hours a day. So there must be many people who play a lot less than 1h / day average to result in less than 1h/day average for the whole playerbase.

ODB.6891:

Tommyknocker.6089:

Malediktus.9250:

It is still very casual friendly, just not friendly to bad players who are unwilling to improve. Casual does not equal bad player. Even players with a low amount of time can play very well if they desire.

And that in a nutshell is the problem with the direction ANet has taken. When it was first introduced it was advertised as the game for those that don’t like the traditional MMO. Friendly atmosphere, no grind, no “I swing a sword again”.

But the current iteration is EXACTLY what many of us were running away from!

The entire “get gud” attitude was something I never wanted to see in this game, now it seems that GW2 is no better than any other WOW clone out there.

Good luck finding any MMO that can survive long term, without any type of challenging content for their players.

The thing is that I am not alone in my wishes and eventually an MMO will come out that caters to our way of wanting to play. Where the money goes so does the direction of the gaming industry, and many of us older players are the ones with the means to propel the industry where we want it to go.

And truth be told, I found many of the starting areas boring as well, and wanted some improvement in the challenge the mobs offered to me. I did not however want the new challenge" to be gated behind timers or 99% meta events.

Also, and TBH many of us cannot “improve” beyond a certain point due to age, muscle problems, bad connections, the list goes on. So telling us to improve is just an insult as we are indeed doing the best we can!

Adding difficult content isn’t the issue…adding that content constrained by timers is a problem for many. I have no problem at all with challenging content but gating and locking stuff behind timers is just a pathetic way of trying to stretch content out, simple as that.
As far as grinding, even though as of today it is not forced, the acceptance of this behavior could and very likely will lead to forced grind as time goes on, because it is the cheapest and easiest way to make content. Once again it’s a sad and simplistic way of trying to stretch out content value and nobody is fooled by that, you’ve only replaced the carrot with the need for 10,000 carrots.

Not everything needs to be group oriented, even in MMO’s the most successful have had a balanced approach. Throw in more solo content with each expansion and stuff that actually is fun to repeat, believe me when I say that adventures is not it for many, many players. It needs to be linked to story and lore.

If they want to be honest with themselves all they need to do is look at their numbers and the drop in active players being logged into the game that pretty much spells it out. Not every complaint is baseless and trying to make them seem that way is not a healthy approach to the games success either, nor is burying your head in the sand or trying to protect yourself through some absurd pretense of an information embargo policy. That is a cop out pure and simple and it only breeds contempt. Like I’ve been saying for a very long time address the concerns honestly and openly, dismiss those that are not reality and make plans to fix those that are. Instead they choose to wear rose colored glasses and pretend everything is all right, well we will see how successful that approach is long term.

DoctorDing.5890:

Core game is still casual-friendly but HoT is definitely not.
The mistake they made is to launch an expansion that is so dramatically different to the core game.

They told us exactly what the expansion was going to be about before it was even launched. There were many us making a huge stink on the forums, before launch, specifically because they were being excessively vague about what the expansion would contain. They eventually gave up the goods and made posts detailing what it would be like. They told us it would be more challenging. Why would you buy something that you know in advance, that you don’t want to play? That isn’t ANET’s mistake…its the customer’s mistake. Its on the customer to be intelligent enough to pay attention to what they spend their money on.

That being the case, there is still plenty of casual content in HoT. HoT is even more about open world content than core Tyria. There are zero dungeons and zero fractals in HoT. The only instanced content in HoT are raids. There is currently only one raid. That means 90+% of HoT is open world zerging. Nobody checks your gear, food, build, etc for open world zerging. You can participate or not participate in open world events at your casual leisure. You can group or stay solo for any open world content just like you did pre-HoT. There will be mobs you are going to get steam rolled by if you try to solo them…just like pre-HoT. Yes, the maguuma mobs do have better AI and hit harder than central Tyria mobs, but guess what…if you don’t like fighting them…you don’t have to spend any time in maguuma areas if you don’t want to. Central Tyria is still there. If you want the rewards for the content, you will do what every mmo that has ever existed requires….toughen up, adapt, and possibly group up to get what you want from the new content. Less whining and more playing IMO.

I would consider myself a casual in the sense that my play time is very limited and restricted to unusual hours, but I have no problems with anything in HoT except stupid mini games. That part isn’t a difficulty thing exactly…its more of an aversion to platform gaming. I have taken 5 characters through this expansion and completed their elite specs with no issues. I find the HoT areas infinitely more engaging than central Tyria. The multi layered map design, the new map navigation methods (gliding, mushrooms, wallows) are amazing. Step out of your safety routine for a minute and learn something new. The only things really different are these new ways to get around the map (which you had an intro to in dry top and silver wastes), mobs being tougher with new mechanics (which you had an intro to in dry top and silver wastes), multi layered maps (which you had an intro to in dry top and silver wastes), and raids (which are just advanced dungeons/fractals…that have been present in the game for years now). There is literally nothing in HoT that should be such a shock to anyone that has been playing the game for years now. Its just an issue of players refusing to adapt/improve and choosing to whine on the forums instead.