Guild Wars 2

Obtena.7952:

Tommyknocker.6089:

Obtena.7952:

It’s not as complicated as you make it seem. If you are bored and you think the game is time-consuming and don’t think there is anything left; the question isn’t what’s left, the question is why are you still here.

Good community attitude you have there. If the going gets boring, the bored should just leave? I for one am hoping they put the reins on adding “new” systems and try to get back to their roots myself.

I may actually start playing more often once I know what their road map entails.

This has nothing to do with community attitude … that’s nonsense. Why convince someone they should play if they don’t enjoy the game?

Disregard m8, I was unsure if this was even posted as the forum was acting wonky for me yesterday. I actually left the page and came back and that post never showed up for me so I figured it was not posted. My anger is with ANet anyways and I should have not lashed out on anyone, sorry.

Coulter.2315:

I think this is the philosophy they are adopting for 2016, they have said they will not be adding new features but expanding on what we have now.

So, more grind?

Astralporing.1957:

Coulter.2315:

I think this is the philosophy they are adopting for 2016, they have said they will not be adding new features but expanding on what we have now.

So, more grind?

Why are you grinding? I haven’t done any grinding, maybe you should think more?

Coulter.2315:

Astralporing.1957:

Coulter.2315:

I think this is the philosophy they are adopting for 2016, they have said they will not be adding new features but expanding on what we have now.

So, more grind?

Why are you grinding? I haven’t done any grinding, maybe you should think more?

Or maybe think less?

I don’t want to read every single post in this 10 page thread, but from the posts I did read, I get the impression that people think that casual players want easy content.

I’m a casual player. I don’t want easy content that can be done in 5 minutes with one arm tied behind my back. But I want to do the things in my own time (not talking about events, for those I will make time as they are temporary by their very nature).

An example: I needed to do the Shatterer for a collection. But that event is only every three hours. During a normal working day, I generally play around 2 hours. Which fall right between the three hours of the Shatterer.
The same goes for every HoT map. Whenever I go there to play there, I must either stay a long time, to find the right map for the meta or forget about that meta.
Right now, I just ignore HoT, as I know I won’t get the metas done with my playstyle anyway.

Oh god. What next… anet please only put 1 skill instead of 10… it’s too hard. smh

I’m not a casual player, but I really wish people were more forgiven for what they want, like me who wants to raid but can’t because other people think I don’t have the experience just by looking at my name or a number or pieces of equipment etc…

By no means it should be this way, yet it is and there are more examples of that like masteries or agony resistance, still I think the gravity of an issue is only growing because of players, not only a design flaw…

I am, yet again, truly hoping that BnS and BDO can cater to the more hardcore players and can entice those that like that kind of thing away from GW2. Unfortunately it did not happen with Wildstar and I had high hopes there too.

My hope is that someday, something, might lure them away from GW2 and maybe then we can say goodbye to esports while making verticallity optional again. It may be a pipe dream, but until ANet starts showing some semblance to the game I fell in love with in 2012, I will just continue to do my daily and log out; for now.

Edit: oh yea forgot.. kill the kitten timers on EVERYTHING, thank you!

Tommyknocker.6089:

I am, yet again, truly hoping that BnS and BDO can cater to the more hardcore players and can entice those that like that kind of thing away from GW2. Unfortunately it did not happen with Wildstar and I had high hopes there too.

My hope is that someday, something, might lure them away from GW2 and maybe then we can say goodbye to esports while making verticallity optional again. It may be a pipe dream, but until ANet starts showing some semblance to the game I fell in love with in 2012, I will just continue to do my daily and log out; for now.

Edit: oh yea forgot.. kill the kitten timers on EVERYTHING, thank you!

So just to check, by your own admission you aren’t really playing the game much and you want GW2 to lose its dedicated players to another game.. Wow you sound like the perfect person for Anet to listen to..

The Raid is fun and I hope they continue to produce interesting bosses, the new maps are well deisgned and I hope they continue to produce good work.

Coulter.2315:

Tommyknocker.6089:

I am, yet again, truly hoping that BnS and BDO can cater to the more hardcore players and can entice those that like that kind of thing away from GW2. Unfortunately it did not happen with Wildstar and I had high hopes there too.

My hope is that someday, something, might lure them away from GW2 and maybe then we can say goodbye to esports while making verticallity optional again. It may be a pipe dream, but until ANet starts showing some semblance to the game I fell in love with in 2012, I will just continue to do my daily and log out; for now.

Edit: oh yea forgot.. kill the kitten timers on EVERYTHING, thank you!

So just to check, by your own admission you aren’t really playing the game much and you want GW2 to lose its dedicated players to another game.. Wow you sound like the perfect person for Anet to listen to..

The Raid is fun and I hope they continue to produce interesting bosses, the new maps are well deisgned and I hope they continue to produce good work.

If the “new” dedicated players are the same ones that made ANet change from their 2012 roots to their current mindset, then kitten YES!

And it will mean that I, and hopefull a few of my guildies, come back on a more full time basis. I honestly don’t care at this point if they listen to me or not, if they continue on with the esports garbage, I will just find a new game eventually anyways.

Also nowhere did I say anything about the raid, it may be fun and someday I might even try it. For now though I would just like to see the return of the living world pre season 2.

Coulter.2315:

Tommyknocker.6089:

I am, yet again, truly hoping that BnS and BDO can cater to the more hardcore players and can entice those that like that kind of thing away from GW2. Unfortunately it did not happen with Wildstar and I had high hopes there too.

My hope is that someday, something, might lure them away from GW2 and maybe then we can say goodbye to esports while making verticallity optional again. It may be a pipe dream, but until ANet starts showing some semblance to the game I fell in love with in 2012, I will just continue to do my daily and log out; for now.

Edit: oh yea forgot.. kill the kitten timers on EVERYTHING, thank you!

So just to check, by your own admission you aren’t really playing the game much and you want GW2 to lose its dedicated players to another game.. Wow you sound like the perfect person for Anet to listen to..

The Raid is fun and I hope they continue to produce interesting bosses, the new maps are well deisgned and I hope they continue to produce good work.

I tried to reply to that as well, and anything I typed would have immediately qualified me for an infraction, so I kept deleting what I wrote.

I don’t understand people who wish bad on other people because they’re not happy.

Because they feel that other people’s existence and different reasons are the source of their lack of happiness. So it’s a form of vengeance.

Coulter.2315:

Tommyknocker.6089:

I am, yet again, truly hoping that BnS and BDO can cater to the more hardcore players and can entice those that like that kind of thing away from GW2. Unfortunately it did not happen with Wildstar and I had high hopes there too.

My hope is that someday, something, might lure them away from GW2 and maybe then we can say goodbye to esports while making verticallity optional again. It may be a pipe dream, but until ANet starts showing some semblance to the game I fell in love with in 2012, I will just continue to do my daily and log out; for now.

Edit: oh yea forgot.. kill the kitten timers on EVERYTHING, thank you!

So just to check, by your own admission you aren’t really playing the game much and you want GW2 to lose its dedicated players to another game.. Wow you sound like the perfect person for Anet to listen to..

The Raid is fun and I hope they continue to produce interesting bosses, the new maps are well deisgned and I hope they continue to produce good work.

The reply put a smile on my face. Those new maps sure are well deisgned. It’s a shame they designed them about as well as designed was spelled..

I hope they actually do some work testing maps at an early stage with real players next time so that they can listen to feedback and change changes, rather than announce a beta where basically everything is set and nothing can be changed.

Perhaps they will make a better job of designing new wvw maps next time too- rather than the current Deserted BL deisgn.

Baldrick.8967:

Coulter.2315:

Tommyknocker.6089:

I am, yet again, truly hoping that BnS and BDO can cater to the more hardcore players and can entice those that like that kind of thing away from GW2. Unfortunately it did not happen with Wildstar and I had high hopes there too.

My hope is that someday, something, might lure them away from GW2 and maybe then we can say goodbye to esports while making verticallity optional again. It may be a pipe dream, but until ANet starts showing some semblance to the game I fell in love with in 2012, I will just continue to do my daily and log out; for now.

Edit: oh yea forgot.. kill the kitten timers on EVERYTHING, thank you!

So just to check, by your own admission you aren’t really playing the game much and you want GW2 to lose its dedicated players to another game.. Wow you sound like the perfect person for Anet to listen to..

The Raid is fun and I hope they continue to produce interesting bosses, the new maps are well deisgned and I hope they continue to produce good work.

The reply put a smile on my face. Those new maps sure are well deisgned. It’s a shame they designed them about as well as designed was spelled..

I hope they actually do some work testing maps at an early stage with real players next time so that they can listen to feedback and change changes, rather than announce a beta where basically everything is set and nothing can be changed.

Perhaps they will make a better job of designing new wvw maps next time too- rather than the current Deserted BL deisgn.

Because making fun of someone’s spelling makes you right? I don’t think so.

Whether you like the zone design or not is a matter of opinion. You don’t like it, fair enough. It doesn’t make it bad.

It is not that I actually don´t like people that like raids and jumping. I know that tastes are different, and I tolerate different opinions and directions even if I finds them stupid, shortsighted, boring, unsustainable, unattractive or a combination of these attributes.

I have yet to find a game that I would find hospitable enough for me when leaving GW2, therefore I stay here until that chance arises. I am truly sick and tired of the direction GW2 has taken and the people that tell others to go back into their ghetto which is vanilla GW2 and leave the rest to them, and so I don´t have the endurance and will to really play it except for forays into SW or rarely into HoT anymore. I also stopped recommending it to my friends who were very casual players and asked me for my opinion to buy HoT or not. It is the best option from a list of miserable alternatives if you want so. Maybe this will change again when the next expansion arrives and is more to my taste, I just don´t know if it will turn back the tide.

I of course got a little grumpy and bitter when the tide turned against me and the game I nearly exclusively played for 3 years turned its back on me, but I hope that this is at least understandable for the fans that like the jumping aspect of HoT and raids.

Look these are the bottom lines:

- You can’t cater to both hardcore and casual players. Anet needs to make a decision what kind of game it’s going to be and build from there. If you try to make both happy, they’ll both just leave to a game that targets them more specifically.

- You can’t come up with content, get people to enjoy it, then just abandon it. Anyone remember the crab toss, sanctum sprint mini games that cycle every day? yeah me either. They haven’t added anything to it at all. Dungeons haven’t seen a change since day 1. It goes on and on and on.

- Most people play MMOs for rewards. They want to feel some kind of progression in their character. Small bits of progression should take a small amount of time, while large ones should take a large amount of time. You got rid of the gear treadmill, great! what are you going to replace it with? There needs to be a feeling of character improvement for people to feel invested in the game. Every game has needed it for an RPG, MMO or otherwise.

- Legendary skins and what not are totally fine, but you need SOME KIND of endgame PVE other than that. If people don’t want legendary armor, what reason do they have to do raids? If anyone says “well it’s fun!” please refer to my previous point.

Maximillian Greil.1965:

Look these are the bottom lines:

- You can’t cater to both hardcore and casual players. Anet needs to make a decision what kind of game it’s going to be and build from there. If you try to make both happy, they’ll both just leave to a game that targets them more specifically.

- You can’t come up with content, get people to enjoy it, then just abandon it. Anyone remember the crab toss, sanctum sprint mini games that cycle every day? yeah me either. They haven’t added anything to it at all. Dungeons haven’t seen a change since day 1. It goes on and on and on.

- Most people play MMOs for rewards. They want to feel some kind of progression in their character. Small bits of progression should take a small amount of time, while large ones should take a large amount of time. You got rid of the gear treadmill, great! what are you going to replace it with? There needs to be a feeling of character improvement for people to feel invested in the game. Every game has needed it for an RPG, MMO or otherwise.

- Legendary skins and what not are totally fine, but you need SOME KIND of endgame PVE other than that. If people don’t want legendary armor, what reason do they have to do raids? If anyone says “well it’s fun!” please refer to my previous point.

There’s plenty of PvE end game besides raids and legendary armor. Anyone who says otherwise isn’t paying attention.

Each elite specialization has it’s on unique weapon to craft. It’s a lot easier than making a legendary, but it’s not dirt easy. It’s end game content. Achievements are also end game content for some people, even if they’re not easy. Crafting is end game content for some people. In fact, there are tons of collections out there that are end game content, everything from the winter’s presence shoulders to the new packs that come with the expansion.

There’s end game out there besides legendaries that are reward skin based. If you’re hard core enough, you can even have a pinnacle weapon (though it’s a long haul for most people). I’m less than 1000 points away from my first pinnacle weapon.

To some people even collecting skins is end game.

Everyone and their mother wanted raids, but I’ll be kitten ed if anyone likes the type Anet rolled out. When I think of a raid I think of UW, FoW, The Deep, Urgoz. I think of adventure, not some guy with red and blue circles I need to froghop around while balancing a cup on my nose.

Maximillian Greil.1965:

- You can’t cater to both hardcore and casual players. Anet needs to make a decision what kind of game it’s going to be and build from there. If you try to make both happy, they’ll both just leave to a game that targets them more specifically.

Or they can add content for both hardcore and casual players and keep both happy at the same time.

- You can’t come up with content, get people to enjoy it, then just abandon it. Anyone remember the crab toss, sanctum sprint mini games that cycle every day? yeah me either. They haven’t added anything to it at all. Dungeons haven’t seen a change since day 1. It goes on and on and on.

True. Btw I haven’t tried it recently but Crab Toss was bugged since HoT release.

- Most people play MMOs for rewards. They want to feel some kind of progression in their character. Small bits of progression should take a small amount of time, while large ones should take a large amount of time. You got rid of the gear treadmill, great! what are you going to replace it with? There needs to be a feeling of character improvement for people to feel invested in the game. Every game has needed it for an RPG, MMO or otherwise.

I think that’s why they added the mastery system.

- Legendary skins and what not are totally fine, but you need SOME KIND of endgame PVE other than that. If people don’t want legendary armor, what reason do they have to do raids? If anyone says “well it’s fun!” please refer to my previous point.

Although the Legendary armor is a good incentive, finally having some content that is not stupidly easy is a great change of pace. And for that alone, the Raid is worth it. Other than that, you know you can get Ascended items from the raid? And not talking about drops, you buy them with the currency.

maddoctor.2738:

Maximillian Greil.1965:

- You can’t cater to both hardcore and casual players. Anet needs to make a decision what kind of game it’s going to be and build from there. If you try to make both happy, they’ll both just leave to a game that targets them more specifically.

Or they can add content for both hardcore and casual players and keep both happy at the same time.

Not possible. As the last few months of back and forth on the forums proved, hardcore players aren’t satisfied with just content meant for them. They also need rewards hidden behind that content – rewards that are both inaccessible by casuals, and yet at the same time desired by them. Elitists want casuals to be unhappy (unhappy that they aren’t as good as them, of course). Hardcore content whose existence casuals can simply ignore just won’t cut it.

Thus, in the end, desires of both groups do conflict. It is not possible to make both groups happy.

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

Maximillian Greil.1965:

- You can’t cater to both hardcore and casual players. Anet needs to make a decision what kind of game it’s going to be and build from there. If you try to make both happy, they’ll both just leave to a game that targets them more specifically.

Or they can add content for both hardcore and casual players and keep both happy at the same time.

Not possible. As the last few months of back and forth on the forums proved, hardcore players aren’t satisfied with just content meant for them. They also need rewards hidden behind that content – rewards that are both inaccessible by casuals, and yet at the same time desired by them. Elitists want casuals to be unhappy (unhappy that they aren’t as good as them, of course). Hardcore content whose existence casuals can simply ignore just won’t cut it.

Thus, in the end, desires of both groups do conflict. It is not possible to make both groups happy.

This is what I’ve been saying all along. Sorry to agree with you Astral, I know that probably annoys you some, but this is exactly the problem I’ve been talking about since before raids were even announced.

If you make hard content that doesn’t have good rewards, less people will do it. A lot of people do stuff just for rewards. So it doesn’t pay to make that content just for people who run hard stuff for fun.

If you make it so the rewards aren’t exclusive, it cheapens, in the mind of some, their achievement. This always happens. In Guild Wars 1, when they changed the way the survivor title worked, those who had it were up in arms because the title meant less. In fact, if you did it before the Kilroy dungeon where you could basically cheese it, it meant even more.

People like to say I did this and here’s the proof. That means they’re happy, but the casuals aren’t. They use all sorts of words to describe the casuals, such as entitled. The casuals use also sorts of words to describe raiders, like elitist. Both really don’t solve anything and shouldn’t be used. It’s simply a different view of the game and why we play it.

I don’t play for challenge, I don’t love that raiding was introduced to the game and it’s cause my guild some personal issues because I don’t really want to have kitten and them, yet not everyone in my guild is good enough to raid. So it causes unnecessary tension in my guild.

Astralporing.1957:

Thus, in the end, desires of both groups do conflict. It is not possible to make both groups happy.

I don’t want to start that other thread again and I will only say that content comes with its rewards. Hardcore content with reward A and casual content with reward B. Content and rewards for everyone.

And also, so a game is not “casual friendly” if there are a minimum of rewards behind content that casuals can’t get? Add a single thing casuals can’t get and suddenly the entire game is not casual friendly anymore? Amazing logic.

maddoctor.2738:

Astralporing.1957:

Thus, in the end, desires of both groups do conflict. It is not possible to make both groups happy.

I don’t want to start that other thread again and I will only say that content comes with its rewards. Hardcore content with reward A and casual content with reward B. Content and rewards for everyone.

And also, so a game is not “casual friendly” if there are a minimum of rewards behind content that casuals can’t get? Add a single thing casuals can’t get and suddenly the entire game is not casual friendly anymore? Amazing logic.

Oh, come on, you know as well as i do that it’s not anything like that. The problem lies in the fact that the rewards for the hardcore content must be something casuals would want too (or the hardcores won’t be satisfied). The problem lies not in the existence of hardcore content and rewards for it, but because it’s done with “in your face” attitude. With a “Join the club or be a second class citizen” message.

TL/DR: If casuals could not care about hardcore content, hardcores would not be satisfied and would ask for better/more shiny rewards up to the point that casuals would start to care and envy them. On the other hand, if you make content/rewards casuals would care about, but could not achieve (not without staying casuals, anyway), then of course they’d be unhappy. That’s the whole point.

So, in the end, one or both of those groups will be unhappy and there’s no way around that.

Astralporing.1957:

So, in the end, one or both of those groups will be unhappy and there’s no way around that.

The point still stands. Even if they add something that casuals want behind hardcore content, how is that making the game (as a whole) not casual friendly?

My only personal problem with HoT is ungodly amount of events grind required for anything. Want to level up masteries? Good luck. Want Viper gear? Grind one and the same event chain eternally, and then move to the next event chain, becouse you need 200 asc materials from every one of them

Coulter.2315:

Tommyknocker.6089:

I am, yet again, truly hoping that BnS and BDO can cater to the more hardcore players and can entice those that like that kind of thing away from GW2. Unfortunately it did not happen with Wildstar and I had high hopes there too.

My hope is that someday, something, might lure them away from GW2 and maybe then we can say goodbye to esports while making verticallity optional again. It may be a pipe dream, but until ANet starts showing some semblance to the game I fell in love with in 2012, I will just continue to do my daily and log out; for now.

Edit: oh yea forgot.. kill the kitten timers on EVERYTHING, thank you!

So just to check, by your own admission you aren’t really playing the game much and you want GW2 to lose its dedicated players to another game.. Wow you sound like the perfect person for Anet to listen to..

The Raid is fun and I hope they continue to produce interesting bosses, the new maps are well deisgned and I hope they continue to produce good work.

Or competition brings out the best in people.

maddoctor.2738:

Astralporing.1957:

So, in the end, one or both of those groups will be unhappy and there’s no way around that.

The point still stands. Even if they add something that casuals want behind hardcore content, how is that making the game (as a whole) not casual friendly?

Well, it depends. Adding a specific single thing doesn’t. But that’s not where it ends. There will be more raid wings and more rewards.

If I go to an amusement park, and I don’t like roller coasters, but I do like shows, then I want enough shows to make it worth my admission to the park, or I’m going to feel ripped off. Not everyone wants roller coasters.

This is the same situation. It’s not just raids. It’s raids and a lot of other stuff that some casuals feel locked out of, and it’s a percentage of the expansion.

So raids is advertised as the next big thing, and you’re not doing that, and maybe the new zones are too hard and you’re not doing those, or you don’t have enough time for the metas, so you’re not doing that, and then maybe you can’t spend the time to grind out legendaries, and suddenly, you’re in an amusement park full of roller coasters looking for the ocassional show.

The problem is, you paid the same admission price as the people who love roller coasters, but a percentage of the content isn’t yours anymore. So you get fewer and fewer of the rewards.

But now add to this, the entire amusepark existed before and it was 90% shows, so you want and spent your money when they opened an extension to that park and suddenly it’s 90% roller coasters. That’s the real problem.

You think it’s not a problem because you like roller coasters. You think there are still a couple of shows. But people who bought the expansion paid the same price you did and the offering percentage has changed drastically.

That’s what all the complaining is about. It’s about the fact that people who could do most things before, are now locked out of most things. Small guilds can’t access guild halls without bankrupting themselves. People can’t farm legendaries, because the price of everything has gone up, but the quick dungeons they ran don’t give gold anymore. Not as much anyway.

You can say I like all this stuff so what? But it doesn’t solve the problem and for some people, possibly a lot of people, there is a problem. Because essentially the product has escalated too suddenly and it’s leaving too many people behind.

That’s my take on it.

I have proposed this a few times before and not seen much of a discussion, but I do think it is a way to go -

It is VERY possible to offer casual content without taking the teeth or reward away from hardcore players.

In raids, they could easily use a gold/silver/bronze reward system that worked to open the content to everyone without taking anything away from the fights. Remove the enrage and reward gold level for hitting first time marker, silver for second and bronze for third.

Gold would be identical to current rewards. Silver would similar but with far fewer shards/gold/etc. Bronze would reward a champ box like any world event, but no access to the new vendor (that would require at least silver or gold).

This would allow everyone to experience the content while still giving the more serious players the rewards they deserve for their performance.

A side effect would be to give them a reason to focus ongoing resources on raids – since the content would no longer be for a tiny subset of the population.

I don’t really see issues with open world, fractals, etc. Those seem like they offer a pretty diverse experience now.

Just my take on it.

those who think some of new contents are uncasual and unfriendly they should skip it , i mean kitten doing raids doesnt even give u 1 gear better than our current 1 just some pets or idk ghost infusion wich we can buy with gold , if u put it this way then gw 2 was never casual coz look at wvw achivements for example asks u to idk capture supply source 2000 times while after days of wvw u end up geting 20 , just skip things u find stresful and things u dont have time for, there r way many things u can do if u r a casual player

as i see gw 2 now is gw 2 is trying to keep both side happy casual and hardcores … tbh a year ago before i join gw 2 i used to search on many many websites and see what people say about guild wars 2 , do u know what was 100% of complains about ? there isnt any hard thing to do all said they got bored ( i mean ahrdcore players) many said after months they left thats true , now those hardcore players have things to do casual players can get all those hardcore gets by diffrent ways n i think thats the beauty of gw 2 now to please every1

maddoctor.2738:

Maximillian Greil.1965:

- You can’t cater to both hardcore and casual players. Anet needs to make a decision what kind of game it’s going to be and build from there. If you try to make both happy, they’ll both just leave to a game that targets them more specifically.

Or they can add content for both hardcore and casual players and keep both happy at the same time.

- You can’t come up with content, get people to enjoy it, then just abandon it. Anyone remember the crab toss, sanctum sprint mini games that cycle every day? yeah me either. They haven’t added anything to it at all. Dungeons haven’t seen a change since day 1. It goes on and on and on.

True. Btw I haven’t tried it recently but Crab Toss was bugged since HoT release.

- Most people play MMOs for rewards. They want to feel some kind of progression in their character. Small bits of progression should take a small amount of time, while large ones should take a large amount of time. You got rid of the gear treadmill, great! what are you going to replace it with? There needs to be a feeling of character improvement for people to feel invested in the game. Every game has needed it for an RPG, MMO or otherwise.

I think that’s why they added the mastery system.

- Legendary skins and what not are totally fine, but you need SOME KIND of endgame PVE other than that. If people don’t want legendary armor, what reason do they have to do raids? If anyone says “well it’s fun!” please refer to my previous point.

Although the Legendary armor is a good incentive, finally having some content that is not stupidly easy is a great change of pace. And for that alone, the Raid is worth it. Other than that, you know you can get Ascended items from the raid? And not talking about drops, you buy them with the currency.

Except the mastery system has failed to give me any sense of meaningful progression and simply felt like “I have to do this now” over and over and over again.
It didn’t feel fun – maybe it’s me – but I remember having fun progression in GW1 and other games – but the mastery system was simply off for me.

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

Maximillian Greil.1965:

- You can’t cater to both hardcore and casual players. Anet needs to make a decision what kind of game it’s going to be and build from there. If you try to make both happy, they’ll both just leave to a game that targets them more specifically.

Or they can add content for both hardcore and casual players and keep both happy at the same time.

Not possible. As the last few months of back and forth on the forums proved, hardcore players aren’t satisfied with just content meant for them. They also need rewards hidden behind that content – rewards that are both inaccessible by casuals, and yet at the same time desired by them. Elitists want casuals to be unhappy (unhappy that they aren’t as good as them, of course). Hardcore content whose existence casuals can simply ignore just won’t cut it.

Thus, in the end, desires of both groups do conflict. It is not possible to make both groups happy.

Except I’ve seen casuals who also want the hardcore gone – completely driven off the game if possible so that they can afk-1-1-1-1-1 it to death.

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

Astralporing.1957:

Thus, in the end, desires of both groups do conflict. It is not possible to make both groups happy.

I don’t want to start that other thread again and I will only say that content comes with its rewards. Hardcore content with reward A and casual content with reward B. Content and rewards for everyone.

And also, so a game is not “casual friendly” if there are a minimum of rewards behind content that casuals can’t get? Add a single thing casuals can’t get and suddenly the entire game is not casual friendly anymore? Amazing logic.

Oh, come on, you know as well as i do that it’s not anything like that. The problem lies in the fact that the rewards for the hardcore content must be something casuals would want too (or the hardcores won’t be satisfied). The problem lies not in the existence of hardcore content and rewards for it, but because it’s done with “in your face” attitude. With a “Join the club or be a second class citizen” message.

TL/DR: If casuals could not care about hardcore content, hardcores would not be satisfied and would ask for better/more shiny rewards up to the point that casuals would start to care and envy them. On the other hand, if you make content/rewards casuals would care about, but could not achieve (not without staying casuals, anyway), then of course they’d be unhappy. That’s the whole point.

So, in the end, one or both of those groups will be unhappy and there’s no way around that.

The way around it is human being using common sense.

If casuals want hardcore rewards they should become hardcore – it’s that simple.
A person who plays really well and plays a lot more should be rewarded better in both quantity and quality than a person who just logs in every now and then and afk-spams-1 in the open world.

That’s the way everything works in this world – you want more? Earn it.
You want to get something? Give something up for it – sacrifice something – make a change.

I’m hardcore – I want to raid – so one day a week I’ve made time for Raiding – time I didn’t have – time I made.
How did I do this? I rescheduled a lot of RL stuff that would usually be done on that day and end up doing a bit more of it every other day – so I work harder on the other 6 days so I can have my 7th day of Raiding.

I gave something up to get those better rewards – and if you want really cool rewards that are hard to get so should you.

Also – if at one point I don’t feel that I can or want to sacrifice things to get the best hardcore rewards in GW2 I’m not going to get upset and mad about it because I’m not entitled enough to get mad for not having things I haven’t earned.

I don’t know where you come from – or where you grew up – but where I’m from most people know you should earn what you want.

Vayne.8563:

maddoctor.2738:

Astralporing.1957:

So, in the end, one or both of those groups will be unhappy and there’s no way around that.

The point still stands. Even if they add something that casuals want behind hardcore content, how is that making the game (as a whole) not casual friendly?

Well, it depends. Adding a specific single thing doesn’t. But that’s not where it ends. There will be more raid wings and more rewards.

If I go to an amusement park, and I don’t like roller coasters, but I do like shows, then I want enough shows to make it worth my admission to the park, or I’m going to feel ripped off. Not everyone wants roller coasters.

This is the same situation. It’s not just raids. It’s raids and a lot of other stuff that some casuals feel locked out of, and it’s a percentage of the expansion.

So raids is advertised as the next big thing, and you’re not doing that, and maybe the new zones are too hard and you’re not doing those, or you don’t have enough time for the metas, so you’re not doing that, and then maybe you can’t spend the time to grind out legendaries, and suddenly, you’re in an amusement park full of roller coasters looking for the ocassional show.

The problem is, you paid the same admission price as the people who love roller coasters, but a percentage of the content isn’t yours anymore. So you get fewer and fewer of the rewards.

But now add to this, the entire amusepark existed before and it was 90% shows, so you want and spent your money when they opened an extension to that park and suddenly it’s 90% roller coasters. That’s the real problem.

You think it’s not a problem because you like roller coasters. You think there are still a couple of shows. But people who bought the expansion paid the same price you did and the offering percentage has changed drastically.

That’s what all the complaining is about. It’s about the fact that people who could do most things before, are now locked out of most things. Small guilds can’t access guild halls without bankrupting themselves. People can’t farm legendaries, because the price of everything has gone up, but the quick dungeons they ran don’t give gold anymore. Not as much anyway.

You can say I like all this stuff so what? But it doesn’t solve the problem and for some people, possibly a lot of people, there is a problem. Because essentially the product has escalated too suddenly and it’s leaving too many people behind.

That’s my take on it.

Only that with new raids will also come new casual friendly content. It’s not like they’re ONLY going to do raids from now on.

The product has escalated “too quickly” because it had to catch up with the fact that GW2 had a severe lack of hard content before HoT.
If the core game had been more effectively supplied with harder content at launch this wouldn’t be a problem.

So who’s fault is it that it wasn’t? Ultimately Anet’s – because they failed to realize how their dungeons would stack up against players a year after release.
They naively thought dungeons would remain hard once people are knowledgeable, well geared and trained.

Vayne.8563:

maddoctor.2738:

Astralporing.1957:

So, in the end, one or both of those groups will be unhappy and there’s no way around that.

The point still stands. Even if they add something that casuals want behind hardcore content, how is that making the game (as a whole) not casual friendly?

Well, it depends. Adding a specific single thing doesn’t. But that’s not where it ends. There will be more raid wings and more rewards.

If I go to an amusement park, and I don’t like roller coasters, but I do like shows, then I want enough shows to make it worth my admission to the park, or I’m going to feel ripped off. Not everyone wants roller coasters.

This is the same situation. It’s not just raids. It’s raids and a lot of other stuff that some casuals feel locked out of, and it’s a percentage of the expansion.

So raids is advertised as the next big thing, and you’re not doing that, and maybe the new zones are too hard and you’re not doing those, or you don’t have enough time for the metas, so you’re not doing that, and then maybe you can’t spend the time to grind out legendaries, and suddenly, you’re in an amusement park full of roller coasters looking for the ocassional show.

The problem is, you paid the same admission price as the people who love roller coasters, but a percentage of the content isn’t yours anymore. So you get fewer and fewer of the rewards.

But now add to this, the entire amusepark existed before and it was 90% shows, so you want and spent your money when they opened an extension to that park and suddenly it’s 90% roller coasters. That’s the real problem.

You think it’s not a problem because you like roller coasters. You think there are still a couple of shows. But people who bought the expansion paid the same price you did and the offering percentage has changed drastically.

That’s what all the complaining is about. It’s about the fact that people who could do most things before, are now locked out of most things. Small guilds can’t access guild halls without bankrupting themselves. People can’t farm legendaries, because the price of everything has gone up, but the quick dungeons they ran don’t give gold anymore. Not as much anyway.

You can say I like all this stuff so what? But it doesn’t solve the problem and for some people, possibly a lot of people, there is a problem. Because essentially the product has escalated too suddenly and it’s leaving too many people behind.

That’s my take on it.

your analogies are incorrect, your amusement park started off as 98% ‘casual’ rides and perhaps 2% ‘hardcore’ cutting edge in the shape of high end fractals, then Anet added a new rollercoaster in the shape of raids and 99% other stuff. its still the same shape of data with the vast majority of content being casual. We know Hot is casual friendly because the vast majority can happily play it solo in glass gear (while also offering a step up from the overpowered tyia, which is still there)

Variety is good and there’s nothing to fear from new content appearing that is specialised .

as for ‘Small guilds can’t access guild halls without bankrupting themselves. this is entitlement nonsense, Guild halls are designed for guilds not small parties (why would you design it for small parties?) however, as with the rest of Anet strategies, if small parties want to form mini guilds they can, but obviously its balanced for larger groups of people, that’s common sense.

Draknar.5748:

Things that people claimed weren’t casual friendly pre-HoT:

Fractals (3 mini dungeons plus a boss?! I don’t have time for that I play 20min a day, I’m casual!)
Dungeons (I can’t get into a group because I don’t have zerk gear and I don’t speedrun! I’m casual!)
World completion (why do we have to do WvW for world completion, I’m casual, I don’t like PvP!)
Story-mode finale (I need a group to finish the story?! what the heck Anet! I’m too casual for that!)
Living Story S1 (these LS events are timed?! You’re saying I can’t do all of the achievements within the 2 weeks if I only play 10min a day?! I’m casual, wtf ANET!
Living Story S2 (wtf Anet, I didn’t log in when these were released because I’m super casual, and now you want me to grind gold so I can trade for gems? I’m casual! I don’t have the time nor money to do this!)
Dailies (Whoa, Anet, look at how long it’s taking to do these dailies! And I have to do it to get laurels?! I’m only on for 2min a day! I can’t possibly get all of this AP that you are forcing me to get! Make it casual friendly!)

I think a lot of people think that casual friendly means everything needs to be able to be completed quickly or easily. A casual player does not imply a bad player, it implies someone that plays at their own, typically slow, pace. Being able to do things at your own pace: that’s the definition of being casual friendly.

In GW2 you can do literally everything at your own pace (minus holiday events, as those are time limited). That is casual friendly. Raids is the only area that I would say has the biggest obstacle to casual players, and that’s getting a 10man group together.

I’d love to hear what exactly in GW2 you couldn’t do at your own, casual, pace.

If something takes a long time, it doesn’t mean it isn’t casual friendly, it just means it will take longer to complete, but it can still be 100% casual.

People claimed crafting legendaries wasn’t casual, but I can assure you I crafted two from scratch, casually, over the course of 2 years. Some days I felt like working towards a requirement, some days I didn’t. I dictated the pace I completed things. THAT IS CASUAL.

amen i love you man i have alot of casual player in my guild they dont event complaing about hot they are all excited about the expa and lot of my f2p based members are looking foward to buy the expa to enjoy the stuff with the guild… crying babys arguing they are gamers and know everything and saying remembers when gw2 was casual… i dont know where they want to go with that position you dont make the game better neither the community, be reasonable about what is wrong and need to be fixed and what´s okay and make this game an amazing game to play with friends.

From what I read in this thread, the words “Anet, please spoon-feed us!”
But seriously, everyone’s a critic. Get over it. I’ve read so much complaints in this thread, my question is, why do you still play? You are literally critical about EVERY single, aspect. meta events, HoT map layouts (looking at you TD), raids being too hard, fractals being kitten (I personally think so anyway), Masteries being too hard to get (what?). If you have so much of an issue with it, just don’t play. It’s probably better for you to quit than to complain about a game you apparently don’t enjoy. Not saying you have to like EVERYTHING, but if you dislike 90% of the game, then there is no point in you playing.

NaotsuguLH.8915:

From what I read in this thread, the words “Anet, please spoon-feed us!”
But seriously, everyone’s a critic. Get over it. I’ve read so much complaints in this thread, my question is, why do you still play? You are literally critical about EVERY single, aspect. meta events, HoT map layouts (looking at you TD), raids being too hard, fractals being kitten (I personally think so anyway), Masteries being too hard to get (what?). If you have so much of an issue with it, just don’t play. It’s probably better for you to quit than to complain about a game you apparently don’t enjoy. Not saying you have to like EVERYTHING, but if you dislike 90% of the game, then there is no point in you playing.

i think people complain because of what the core game was, which the people very much enjoyed, and the direction anet is seemingly taking w/ it.

there is nothing wrong w/ people expressing their disappointment, why they are disappointed, and suggesting what could have made it a more positive direction

I completely agree! i have started playing again after a 2 year break and it has become so convoluted and extreme. I have no idea what i am doing anymore! Please just simplify it again. Or take a poll to find out what people want. I love this game still but i do feel i’m being forced to do things i don’t want to do or take part in.

NaotsuguLH.8915:

From what I read in this thread, the words “Anet, please spoon-feed us!”

But seriously, everyone’s a critic. Get over it. I’ve read so much complaints in this thread, my question is, why do you still play? You are literally critical about EVERY single, aspect. meta events, HoT map layouts (looking at you TD), raids being too hard, fractals being kitten (I personally think so anyway), Masteries being too hard to get (what?). If you have so much of an issue with it, just don’t play. It’s probably better for you to quit than to complain about a game you apparently don’t enjoy. Not saying you have to like EVERYTHING, but if you dislike 90% of the game, then there is no point in you playing.

Disliking 90% of the game’s current direction is not the same as disliking 90% of the game. HoT may “be the game” at this point, but it is a small percentage of the overall offering. The thing is, the other stuff which is unlike HoT, is very old as far as game’s go. Asking for an expansion experience that is more in line with what one has been enjoying is more indicative of liking the game than disliking it.

There’s also the fact that HoT design direction was derived from player feedback. Players severely criticized many aspects of the core game and HoT is in large part a reaction to that criticism. The criticism in this thread is a reaction to that pendulum swing.

As to the accusation of spoon-feeding… that’s not what I see. Rather, I see the fundamental conflict between players who play for an adrenaline rush and players who play to decompress after work and family time. HoT is designed for the former group, but the latter group also paid for it. Ultimately, an XPac that caters to both is better for the player-base and thus better for ANet.

Harper.4173:

Except I’ve seen casuals who also want the hardcore gone – completely driven off the game if possible so that they can afk-1-1-1-1-1 it to death.

What did you expect? Casuals do see that hardcores are trying to steer the game in directions they wouldn’t enjoy. They do not like it, and are trying to counter it. And if the only way to do it is by chasing hardcores away, then so be it. After all, while hardcores need casuals they can lord over to be happy (because when everyone’s special, noone is), casuals can do well on their own, with no hardcores around.
(and no, i’m not going to address your afk-1-1-1 strawman)

Harper.4173:

If casuals want hardcore rewards they should become hardcore – it’s that simple.

Yeah, exactly what i said – “Join the club or be a second class citizen”. Thank you for illustrating my point so well.

Harper.4173:

I don’t know where you come from – or where you grew up – but where I’m from most people know you should earn what you want.

Some people do like to suck the joy out of life by turning rest and entertainment into a second job. I’m not one of them.

Harper.4173:

Only that with new raids will also come new casual friendly content. It’s not like they’re ONLY going to do raids from now on.

They did kill dungeons in order to make raids popular, did they not?

Harper.4173:

They naively thought dungeons would remain hard once people are knowledgeable, well geared and trained.

They naively thought that dungeons would remain hard, and so when they did remain hard for a large part of community, they nerfed them significantly so the wider populace could enjoy them? Somehow this doesn’t add up.

Jaxom.7310:

NaotsuguLH.8915:

From what I read in this thread, the words “Anet, please spoon-feed us!”
But seriously, everyone’s a critic. Get over it. I’ve read so much complaints in this thread, my question is, why do you still play? You are literally critical about EVERY single, aspect. meta events, HoT map layouts (looking at you TD), raids being too hard, fractals being kitten (I personally think so anyway), Masteries being too hard to get (what?). If you have so much of an issue with it, just don’t play. It’s probably better for you to quit than to complain about a game you apparently don’t enjoy. Not saying you have to like EVERYTHING, but if you dislike 90% of the game, then there is no point in you playing.

i think people complain because of what the core game was, which the people very much enjoyed, and the direction anet is seemingly taking w/ it.

there is nothing wrong w/ people expressing their disappointment, why they are disappointed, and suggesting what could have made it a more positive direction

^This.

I’m not a big fan of HoT, that’s not to say I hate it, I just enjoy the parts of the game that’s not HoT more.

I really do think that raids are a bad idea. I remember when you didn’t have to wait to have fun. Not raids are here I can wast time waiting for a group to fill up, that might just end up falling apart dew to people getting fed up waiting. Most people was must be this class with this gear/rune sigil set or gtfo.

I’ll probably end up never doing a raid because of “balance” that some classes are great for raids and other are not. All this you can do it with anything, but you might have a harder time with it is just not true. By saying that some classes will just be left in the dirt. It’s sad really, but hay, that what 5% was it? Got pandered too. Yet people who play other game modes like PvP and WvW have been crying out for fixes and new things for there game mode. PvP got one map. And by all accounts WvW was DoA at launch of HoT.

The Core game was great. We had dungeons for people to learn about group play, and to have fun. Then we had fractals that where supposed to be for the more hard core/wanting a challenge crowd. But for some reason, that I really don’t understand. Dungeons have been all but killed off, and fractals are now, I don’t know. Super easy? I did 4 today. The first time id done them in at least 6-8 months, and they where laughable. I’d had dungeon runs that where harder.

I’m nit sure what is being aimed for here. But currently for me, and possibly others that group content is just too easy, or impossible to get a group for.

And I know I can start my own groups for raids, but as I said, unless you get the right people with the right classes, people just leave or get board of waiting. In an ideal game all classes would be equal and I would not have this problem trying to get a 10 man group together.

I know this is easy to say, but ANet needs to bring the gap of what is a great class and what is an ok class to bring to a raid smaller, so in the end every class is good to bring, and not barely good enough to scrape by if we are all on our A game and the less desirable class is a god.

vesica tempestas.1563:

Vayne.8563:

maddoctor.2738:

Astralporing.1957:

So, in the end, one or both of those groups will be unhappy and there’s no way around that.

The point still stands. Even if they add something that casuals want behind hardcore content, how is that making the game (as a whole) not casual friendly?

Well, it depends. Adding a specific single thing doesn’t. But that’s not where it ends. There will be more raid wings and more rewards.

If I go to an amusement park, and I don’t like roller coasters, but I do like shows, then I want enough shows to make it worth my admission to the park, or I’m going to feel ripped off. Not everyone wants roller coasters.

This is the same situation. It’s not just raids. It’s raids and a lot of other stuff that some casuals feel locked out of, and it’s a percentage of the expansion.

So raids is advertised as the next big thing, and you’re not doing that, and maybe the new zones are too hard and you’re not doing those, or you don’t have enough time for the metas, so you’re not doing that, and then maybe you can’t spend the time to grind out legendaries, and suddenly, you’re in an amusement park full of roller coasters looking for the ocassional show.

The problem is, you paid the same admission price as the people who love roller coasters, but a percentage of the content isn’t yours anymore. So you get fewer and fewer of the rewards.

But now add to this, the entire amusepark existed before and it was 90% shows, so you want and spent your money when they opened an extension to that park and suddenly it’s 90% roller coasters. That’s the real problem.

You think it’s not a problem because you like roller coasters. You think there are still a couple of shows. But people who bought the expansion paid the same price you did and the offering percentage has changed drastically.

That’s what all the complaining is about. It’s about the fact that people who could do most things before, are now locked out of most things. Small guilds can’t access guild halls without bankrupting themselves. People can’t farm legendaries, because the price of everything has gone up, but the quick dungeons they ran don’t give gold anymore. Not as much anyway.

You can say I like all this stuff so what? But it doesn’t solve the problem and for some people, possibly a lot of people, there is a problem. Because essentially the product has escalated too suddenly and it’s leaving too many people behind.

That’s my take on it.

your analogies are incorrect, your amusement park started off as 98% ‘casual’ rides and perhaps 2% ‘hardcore’ cutting edge in the shape of high end fractals, then Anet added a new rollercoaster in the shape of raids and 99% other stuff. its still the same shape of data with the vast majority of content being casual. We know Hot is casual friendly because the vast majority can happily play it solo in glass gear (while also offering a step up from the overpowered tyia, which is still there)

Variety is good and there’s nothing to fear from new content appearing that is specialised .

as for ‘Small guilds can’t access guild halls without bankrupting themselves. this is entitlement nonsense, Guild halls are designed for guilds not small parties (why would you design it for small parties?) however, as with the rest of Anet strategies, if small parties want to form mini guilds they can, but obviously its balanced for larger groups of people, that’s common sense.

But my analogy isn’t incorrect, because Anet changed the product suddenly. If I were playing as a casual player only, and found the HoT zones not fun or too challenging then there really is very little for me in the expansion even though I have to pay the same price as a harder core player to get the expansion.

I once took a writing course with the SFWA, and one of the first things they teach you is that the moment you start writing a book, you’re creating unwritten contract with your reader. You’re defining the genre and tone up front and if you should change that later in the book, you risk losing a percent of your readers. The greater the change, the more likely it is you’ll lose readers to the change. So before you make that change you have to sell the change to the reader.

I don’t feel this change was sold to casual players. It’s not gradual. It’s sudden, and there’s a lot of it. It’s the same for games. If I’m playing a game and you sell kitten expansion which includes stuff for everyone but me, and you expect me to muddle on with the same stuff unchanged for another couple of years before another expansion comes out…well, I’m not sure why anyone would think that would go over well.

And small guilds didn’t just end up with having a very expensive guild hall but they lost functionality that they previously farmed to have access to. Dismissing a legitmate claim like that as entitlement would be like saying you paid to have access to electricity in your house but now you can’t have it, because they’ve changed how electricity works. You used to have electricity and now you don’t. That’s a very legit complaint.

Making you farm the old system to unlock something and then making you farm again for it, and making it much more expensive is very much not entitlement.

This is Guild Wars 2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gItzcaBIOKk

Remember when logging into an MMO meant there would be exploration, challenges, some manner of taking them seriously? We haven’t seen an MMO released with a continuous landscape since Dark Age of Camelot. You put your money into something and got robbed. That’s the reality of the situation. Your choice is to go forward believing somehow your continued contribution or loyalty means anything to a machine (game) meant to milk you for pounds, dollars, and any other currency you might have: even the pixel variety. You’ve been bamboozled: cheated, robbed, played, duped, etc. Say, “au revoir,” to your friends still logging in and get on one other’s friends list through another other mediums now; then wait it out. Will the game keep going? Sure, there’s always a new player to get milked. Rescue yourselves. Leave.

Vayne.8563:

vesica tempestas.1563:

Vayne.8563:

maddoctor.2738:

Astralporing.1957:

So, in the end, one or both of those groups will be unhappy and there’s no way around that.

The point still stands. Even if they add something that casuals want behind hardcore content, how is that making the game (as a whole) not casual friendly?

Well, it depends. Adding a specific single thing doesn’t. But that’s not where it ends. There will be more raid wings and more rewards.

If I go to an amusement park, and I don’t like roller coasters, but I do like shows, then I want enough shows to make it worth my admission to the park, or I’m going to feel ripped off. Not everyone wants roller coasters.

This is the same situation. It’s not just raids. It’s raids and a lot of other stuff that some casuals feel locked out of, and it’s a percentage of the expansion.

So raids is advertised as the next big thing, and you’re not doing that, and maybe the new zones are too hard and you’re not doing those, or you don’t have enough time for the metas, so you’re not doing that, and then maybe you can’t spend the time to grind out legendaries, and suddenly, you’re in an amusement park full of roller coasters looking for the ocassional show.

The problem is, you paid the same admission price as the people who love roller coasters, but a percentage of the content isn’t yours anymore. So you get fewer and fewer of the rewards.

But now add to this, the entire amusepark existed before and it was 90% shows, so you want and spent your money when they opened an extension to that park and suddenly it’s 90% roller coasters. That’s the real problem.

You think it’s not a problem because you like roller coasters. You think there are still a couple of shows. But people who bought the expansion paid the same price you did and the offering percentage has changed drastically.

That’s what all the complaining is about. It’s about the fact that people who could do most things before, are now locked out of most things. Small guilds can’t access guild halls without bankrupting themselves. People can’t farm legendaries, because the price of everything has gone up, but the quick dungeons they ran don’t give gold anymore. Not as much anyway.

You can say I like all this stuff so what? But it doesn’t solve the problem and for some people, possibly a lot of people, there is a problem. Because essentially the product has escalated too suddenly and it’s leaving too many people behind.

That’s my take on it.

your analogies are incorrect, your amusement park started off as 98% ‘casual’ rides and perhaps 2% ‘hardcore’ cutting edge in the shape of high end fractals, then Anet added a new rollercoaster in the shape of raids and 99% other stuff. its still the same shape of data with the vast majority of content being casual. We know Hot is casual friendly because the vast majority can happily play it solo in glass gear (while also offering a step up from the overpowered tyia, which is still there)

Variety is good and there’s nothing to fear from new content appearing that is specialised .

as for ‘Small guilds can’t access guild halls without bankrupting themselves. this is entitlement nonsense, Guild halls are designed for guilds not small parties (why would you design it for small parties?) however, as with the rest of Anet strategies, if small parties want to form mini guilds they can, but obviously its balanced for larger groups of people, that’s common sense.

But my analogy isn’t incorrect, because Anet changed the product suddenly. If I were playing as a casual player only, and found the HoT zones not fun or too challenging then there really is very little for me in the expansion even though I have to pay the same price as a harder core player to get the expansion.

I once took a writing course with the SFWA, and one of the first things they teach you is that the moment you start writing a book, you’re creating unwritten contract with your reader. You’re defining the genre and tone up front and if you should change that later in the book, you risk losing a percent of your readers. The greater the change, the more likely it is you’ll lose readers to the change. So before you make that change you have to sell the change to the reader.

I don’t feel this change was sold to casual players. It’s not gradual. It’s sudden, and there’s a lot of it. It’s the same for games. If I’m playing a game and you sell kitten expansion which includes stuff for everyone but me, and you expect me to muddle on with the same stuff unchanged for another couple of years before another expansion comes out…well, I’m not sure why anyone would think that would go over well.

And small guilds didn’t just end up with having a very expensive guild hall but they lost functionality that they previously farmed to have access to. Dismissing a legitmate claim like that as entitlement would be like saying you paid to have access to electricity in your house but now you can’t have it, because they’ve changed how electricity works. You used to have electricity and now you don’t. That’s a very legit complaint.

Making you farm the old system to unlock something and then making you farm again for it, and making it much more expensive is very much not entitlement.

I agree. I class my self as a casual. And trying to get things done in HoT, out side of story steps is a pain. Its taken me till last week to finally get on when the Chak Grenth is up. HoT map metas are just too time consuming for me to play them. I don’t get to play for hours on end, but more like an hour here, maybe two there, and half an hour here.

So I try to plan what I’m doing accordingly. First thing I do is, are any maps coming up to the boss window. If they are I try and find a map that’s organised. If I can’t or I’ve missed the boat, I normally do my dailies. A spot of PvP and maybe a story step. Or like today a fractal or two. Now my problem with the HoT maps are that if I want to do anything on those maps, I have to be there for 2 hours ish. As I don’t know how far along a map will be, if the challenge I need to do for a collection will be unlocked, and if it is how long for.

It’s things like this that I’m staying out of HoT. Currently I’m working on getting PvP rank 80 for the last finisher, once I have that I’ll be taking a brake from PvP as I’m close to burn out. Once that’s done, I don’t really have a goal. I don’t have the time to spend on a HoT map to make any head way with a collection, and I’m. Not a fan of the new legendary weapons, and I have the only legendary I like from the original set. So really the only thing left in GW2 for me soon will be the story, and getting my alts through it and getting them there elite specs. But I’m starting to wonder if I want to. I’ve got 3 toons through the PS LS2 and all but one of those through HoT since HoT launched. My rev has just started LS 2 and have another 5 toon at different points of there PS.

Roll on the new LS. That’s really all I have to look forward too.

no this is about your personal taste, hundreds of thousands play GW2, many love HOT, many casual players love HOT (99% of GW2 is casual play). You don’t, but that’s doesn’t mean HOT is a poor design or ‘suddenly changed’ it just means you bought a game you don’t enjoy it seems. Now if GW2 was poor quality and shoddy that deceived people that would be a different story, but there was a TON of material prior to HOT release, I used it myself to decide if I wanted to but it and return from ESO.

Nobody is making anyone farm anything, its just a game.

Vayne.8563:

Well, it depends. Adding a specific single thing doesn’t. But that’s not where it ends. There will be more raid wings and more rewards.

If I go to an amusement park, and I don’t like roller coasters, but I do like shows, then I want enough shows to make it worth my admission to the park, or I’m going to feel ripped off. Not everyone wants roller coasters.

This is the same situation. It’s not just raids. It’s raids and a lot of other stuff that some casuals feel locked out of, and it’s a percentage of the expansion.

So raids is advertised as the next big thing, and you’re not doing that, and maybe the new zones are too hard and you’re not doing those, or you don’t have enough time for the metas, so you’re not doing that, and then maybe you can’t spend the time to grind out legendaries, and suddenly, you’re in an amusement park full of roller coasters looking for the ocassional show.

The problem is, you paid the same admission price as the people who love roller coasters, but a percentage of the content isn’t yours anymore. So you get fewer and fewer of the rewards.

But now add to this, the entire amusepark existed before and it was 90% shows, so you want and spent your money when they opened an extension to that park and suddenly it’s 90% roller coasters. That’s the real problem.

You think it’s not a problem because you like roller coasters. You think there are still a couple of shows. But people who bought the expansion paid the same price you did and the offering percentage has changed drastically.

That’s what all the complaining is about. It’s about the fact that people who could do most things before, are now locked out of most things. Small guilds can’t access guild halls without bankrupting themselves. People can’t farm legendaries, because the price of everything has gone up, but the quick dungeons they ran don’t give gold anymore. Not as much anyway.

You can say I like all this stuff so what? But it doesn’t solve the problem and for some people, possibly a lot of people, there is a problem. Because essentially the product has escalated too suddenly and it’s leaving too many people behind.

That’s my take on it.

Best stuff you’ve ever written Vayne. Walk-off homerun…

Edit: One thing to add. I don’t care if HoT is not what I want, I just want a viable WvW game. Raids, Fractels, Meta Maps, etc. I don’t like it, I don’t play it. I have full Ascended and Legendaries. But WvW is in a horrible state right now.

Astralporing.1957:

Not possible. As the last few months of back and forth on the forums proved, hardcore players aren’t satisfied with just content meant for them. They also need rewards hidden behind that content – rewards that are both inaccessible by casuals, and yet at the same time desired by them. Elitists want casuals to be unhappy (unhappy that they aren’t as good as them, of course). Hardcore content whose existence casuals can simply ignore just won’t cut it. …

Completely correct.

If all HoT had done was add hard content, the casuals would have been happy just leaving the rest alone and letting us know in advance that we shouldn’t buy it.

But, they didn’t. They tried to satisfy both camps, but did an abysmal job of it by gating everything. The hardcores got their raiding (but for some strange reason they’re not content with it), and the casuals got less than nothing. Not only was HoT designed almost 100% for hardcore types, they made it unappealing to their more numerous counterparts, the casuals.

And, for the icing on the cake, they nerfed rewards for those left behind.

maddoctor.2738:

I don’t want to start that other thread again and I will only say that content comes with its rewards. Hardcore content with reward A and casual content with reward B. Content and rewards for everyone. …

There’s only one problem with your logic: It isn’t reward B. It’s reward C. Reward B was what it WAS before they nerfed them.