Guild Wars 2

battledrone.8315:

why did we have champ trains running around and killing bosses in every zone?

Champ trains were there for people without skill and ability to get rewards by pressing 1 on their keyboard, there was no reason to form a champ train in order to kill the champions, they were perfectly doable with 2 or 3 people, and some even solo.

maddoctor.2738:

battledrone.8315:

why did we have champ trains running around and killing bosses in every zone?

Champ trains were there for people without skill and ability to get rewards by pressing 1 on their keyboard, there was no reason to form a champ train in order to kill the champions, they were perfectly doable with 2 or 3 people, and some even solo.

so it was only a challenge for those, who didnt want it? makes perfect sense…lol

I just bought HoT a month ago. About the massive number of achievements which grant mastery points in Dragon Stand, is there a way for me to obtain them? The problem is most of the time, there’s not enough people there doing the map’s meta.

LiewKW.6410:

I just bought HoT a month ago. About the massive number of achievements which grant mastery points in Dragon Stand, is there a way for me to obtain them? The problem is most of the time, there’s not enough people there doing the map’s meta.

Use a timer site, like gw2timer.com. Get to the zone ten minutes before Dragonstand is up and join a squad. Also you can use LFG tool to find a squad to an active map.

There are always people doing this map when it starts. Always meaning all the time. In every time slot. Always.

I complete dragon stand several times a week at all different times and I’ve never not been able to find a map.

Don’t just show up on the map randomly. Use timers and looking for group tool to find an active server. Profit.

battledrone.8315:

and the marionette thing wasnt challenging?

No, it really wasn’t.

Healix.5819:

Djinn.9245:

Why is it that Anet doesn’t seem to care about this? Why didn’t they predict this and build some kind of notification so that new players know why the map is empty and how to find maps that have other people?

Of course ArenaNet cares. Earnings are down 25% compared to the year prior to HoT’s announcement. They simply don’t have the resources to waste and even if they did, it’s far too late to matter. They’re better off forgetting HoT and focusing on the next expansion, as that’ll actually sell the game.

At least for now, GW2 will continue to get new players. And those (who don’t read the forums lol) will buy HoT. And then they will come to the forums and make exactly the same complaints. And because Anet has done nothing about it, HoT will cost them some number of those new players.

So I disagree that they should do nothing about it. Its not like HoT is just one small part of the game. It is an entire expansion that is practically required if people want enough HP and MP.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Djinn.9245:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Once a Zone is full enough for the meta (or world boss etc)…
-> It attracts taxi-using players.
-> It reaches the soft cap.
-> New players entering the zone are dropped in new instances.
-> The taxi-using among them move to the first map, which becomes hard capped.
-> Players who don’t taxi are extremely like to end up in seemingly-empty zones.

So regardless of whether we prefer LFG or prefer to find our events more organically, in this game, it’s an essential tool. Those who use it will be playing a different sort of game than those who don’t, which is why we end up having some of these “there’s no one there” | “yes, there are people there” conversations.

Why is it that Anet doesn’t seem to care about this? Why didn’t they predict this and build some kind of notification so that new players know why the map is empty and how to find maps that have other people? The fact that so many people ask about empty maps, un-completeable events, and being pushed out of maps when they are just about to complete something should have prompted Anet to do something a year ago.

Because the underlying issue is math, not tech. Getting people to Taxis is a social problem, which also cannot be resolved by tech.

…

There’s only a problem if the people who ask aren’t willing or able to use the tools at hand.

IMO, it isn’t that people are not willing or able to use the tools. It is that they don’t understand the situation. When we first got the megaserver, I would see references to “taxi” in chat and I had zero idea what that was. I have played almost every single AAA MMO since Everquest and never had to deal with this issue.

Anyone who has come to GW2 from almost any other MMO and likes PvE expects to just go to a map and play. How can they know there are more than 1 instance of the same map? And if they find out, how could they figure out how to get there? The LFG tool is for looking for a group, not for travel between instances. If a person was simply running around a map doing PvE, why would they look there to change to a more populated map?

This is what I am talking about Anet making more obvious.

Vayne.8563:

The real point to me is that this thread is called hot is unsoloable, which is very very different from saying I can’t solo HoT. That’s a very different statement.

You need to have knowledge of your class and some small degree of skill (yes, small) to solo HoT. Again not every hero point, but to get around solo and to get to where people are doing things. And it’s not intuitive, it takes time to learn.

There are always people that will start a book find it not interesting and close it before the first chapter, but some books are fantastic if you stay with them. Many people have felt that about HOT. The more you play it the better you get.

Generally I’ve found the people who like it least aren’t people who can’t play it. They’re people who can’t play it but don’t want to because all they want to do is get their mastery points so they can play the game, rather than playing the game to get their mastery points.

HoT has entertaining and complex event chains. It has interesting dynamics. It has maps that make you think and not everyone is going to like that. That why AB is so good for most people. It’s less twisted.

But why shouldn’t this game have a couple of zones that are more complex?

“This chicken is too hot.” Obviously I mean “for me”.

Djinn.9245:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Djinn.9245:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Once a Zone is full enough for the meta (or world boss etc)…
-> It attracts taxi-using players.
-> It reaches the soft cap.
-> New players entering the zone are dropped in new instances.
-> The taxi-using among them move to the first map, which becomes hard capped.
-> Players who don’t taxi are extremely like to end up in seemingly-empty zones.

So regardless of whether we prefer LFG or prefer to find our events more organically, in this game, it’s an essential tool. Those who use it will be playing a different sort of game than those who don’t, which is why we end up having some of these “there’s no one there” | “yes, there are people there” conversations.

Why is it that Anet doesn’t seem to care about this? Why didn’t they predict this and build some kind of notification so that new players know why the map is empty and how to find maps that have other people? The fact that so many people ask about empty maps, un-completeable events, and being pushed out of maps when they are just about to complete something should have prompted Anet to do something a year ago.

Because the underlying issue is math, not tech. Getting people to Taxis is a social problem, which also cannot be resolved by tech.

…

There’s only a problem if the people who ask aren’t willing or able to use the tools at hand.

IMO, it isn’t that people are not willing or able to use the tools. It is that they don’t understand the situation. When we first got the megaserver, I would see references to “taxi” in chat and I had zero idea what that was. I have played almost every single AAA MMO since Everquest and never had to deal with this issue.

Anyone who has come to GW2 from almost any other MMO and likes PvE expects to just go to a map and play. How can they know there are more than 1 instance of the same map? And if they find out, how could they figure out how to get there? The LFG tool is for looking for a group, not for travel between instances. If a person was simply running around a map doing PvE, why would they look there to change to a more populated map?

This is what I am talking about Anet making more obvious.

This I agree with. I have no problems with using the LFG tool to organize the maps, but it should be way more obvious. Half the time I forget until I get the dead map warning, then I remember the LFG tool and check for active taxis. Now if I am on the hunt for something specific I know to use it but it was not intuitive in the least to get used to it.

Djinn.9245:

Vayne.8563:

The real point to me is that this thread is called hot is unsoloable, which is very very different from saying I can’t solo HoT. That’s a very different statement.

You need to have knowledge of your class and some small degree of skill (yes, small) to solo HoT. Again not every hero point, but to get around solo and to get to where people are doing things. And it’s not intuitive, it takes time to learn.

There are always people that will start a book find it not interesting and close it before the first chapter, but some books are fantastic if you stay with them. Many people have felt that about HOT. The more you play it the better you get.

Generally I’ve found the people who like it least aren’t people who can’t play it. They’re people who can’t play it but don’t want to because all they want to do is get their mastery points so they can play the game, rather than playing the game to get their mastery points.

HoT has entertaining and complex event chains. It has interesting dynamics. It has maps that make you think and not everyone is going to like that. That why AB is so good for most people. It’s less twisted.

But why shouldn’t this game have a couple of zones that are more complex?

“This chicken is too hot.” Obviously I mean “for me”.

Normally I would agree, but the OP, and some other posters since, have specifically stated that they were not speaking for themselves.

Moonyeti.3296:

Djinn.9245:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Djinn.9245:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Once a Zone is full enough for the meta (or world boss etc)…
-> It attracts taxi-using players.
-> It reaches the soft cap.
-> New players entering the zone are dropped in new instances.
-> The taxi-using among them move to the first map, which becomes hard capped.
-> Players who don’t taxi are extremely like to end up in seemingly-empty zones.

So regardless of whether we prefer LFG or prefer to find our events more organically, in this game, it’s an essential tool. Those who use it will be playing a different sort of game than those who don’t, which is why we end up having some of these “there’s no one there” | “yes, there are people there” conversations.

Why is it that Anet doesn’t seem to care about this? Why didn’t they predict this and build some kind of notification so that new players know why the map is empty and how to find maps that have other people? The fact that so many people ask about empty maps, un-completeable events, and being pushed out of maps when they are just about to complete something should have prompted Anet to do something a year ago.

Because the underlying issue is math, not tech. Getting people to Taxis is a social problem, which also cannot be resolved by tech.

…

There’s only a problem if the people who ask aren’t willing or able to use the tools at hand.

IMO, it isn’t that people are not willing or able to use the tools. It is that they don’t understand the situation. When we first got the megaserver, I would see references to “taxi” in chat and I had zero idea what that was. I have played almost every single AAA MMO since Everquest and never had to deal with this issue.

Anyone who has come to GW2 from almost any other MMO and likes PvE expects to just go to a map and play. How can they know there are more than 1 instance of the same map? And if they find out, how could they figure out how to get there? The LFG tool is for looking for a group, not for travel between instances. If a person was simply running around a map doing PvE, why would they look there to change to a more populated map?

This is what I am talking about Anet making more obvious.

This I agree with. I have no problems with using the LFG tool to organize the maps, but it should be way more obvious. Half the time I forget until I get the dead map warning, then I remember the LFG tool and check for active taxis. Now if I am on the hunt for something specific I know to use it but it was not intuitive in the least to get used to it.

Also agreed.

Drivrius.6159:

Zomaarwat.3912:

Massive
Multiplayer
Online
Role
Playing
Game

Personal
Story

Solo’d all of HoT Story, and everything from Living World Season 3.. so far.. what’s the problem?

Vegeta.2563:

Solo’d all of HoT Story, and everything from Living World Season 3.. so far.. what’s the problem?

Well good for you!
One problem is that some players (unlike you) find HoT unfun, grindy, unfriendly towards new players and simply not worth their time when other games simply are more welcoming to their needs and expectations.
While those players might be a small minority it adds to THE problem: This game loses more players than it attracts.

Fewer players = Less money to develop what you like = Problem! Got it?

Djinn.9245:

Vayne.8563:

The real point to me is that this thread is called hot is unsoloable, which is very very different from saying I can’t solo HoT. That’s a very different statement.

You need to have knowledge of your class and some small degree of skill (yes, small) to solo HoT. Again not every hero point, but to get around solo and to get to where people are doing things. And it’s not intuitive, it takes time to learn.

There are always people that will start a book find it not interesting and close it before the first chapter, but some books are fantastic if you stay with them. Many people have felt that about HOT. The more you play it the better you get.

Generally I’ve found the people who like it least aren’t people who can’t play it. They’re people who can’t play it but don’t want to because all they want to do is get their mastery points so they can play the game, rather than playing the game to get their mastery points.

HoT has entertaining and complex event chains. It has interesting dynamics. It has maps that make you think and not everyone is going to like that. That why AB is so good for most people. It’s less twisted.

But why shouldn’t this game have a couple of zones that are more complex?

“This chicken is too hot.” Obviously I mean “for me”.

But you’re not just saying for you, are you? Because in another post, you claim new people will buy the game and they’ll come here and make the same complaints. You believe most people feel this way or you wouldn’t have said that.

And I’ve yet to see any evidence of that.

There’s a handful of people in this thread saying HoT is too hard, a handful saying it’s not too hard and a handful saying it was too hard but I learned how to do it.

scrumsome.7198:

Vegeta.2563:

Solo’d all of HoT Story, and everything from Living World Season 3.. so far.. what’s the problem?

Well good for you!
One problem is that some players (unlike you) find HoT unfun, grindy, unfriendly towards new players and simply not worth their time when other games simply are more welcoming to their needs and expectations.
While those players might be a small minority it adds to THE problem: This game loses more players than it attracts.

Fewer players = Less money to develop what you like = Problem! Got it?

Of course before HOT many people were complaining the game was too easy. And yes, HoT is not friendly to new players…because it’s not meant to be new player content. It’s meant to be end game content.

Vayne.8563:

Of course before HOT many people were complaining the game was too easy. And yes, HoT is not friendly to new players…because it’s not meant to be new player content. It’s meant to be end game content.

You may be 100% correct, yet the “problem” persists!

Some customers (however few) leave – Even fewer joins: This is a VERY real problem for any entity outside the non-profit realm!

edit: Heck, even non-profit org’s offer less with fewer followers ;-)

Vegeta.2563:

Solo’d all of HoT Story, and everything from Living World Season 3.. so far.. what’s the problem?

Obviously, not a problem for you. Some people in the thread are pointing out it’s a problem for them and they fear it’s a problem for too many coming into the game new today.

Hopefully the next xpac will have a greater variety of content in terms of both difficulty and type. I dont care for HoT maps but I enjoy the fights. My biggest concern is that the next xpac will have the variety I mentioned, but partnered up opposite my own tastes. I would love core style maps with HoT combat, but would be disappointed by a locking more challenging combat behind HoT style maps and navigation.

scrumsome.7198:

Vayne.8563:

Of course before HOT many people were complaining the game was too easy. And yes, HoT is not friendly to new players…because it’s not meant to be new player content. It’s meant to be end game content.

You may be 100% correct, yet the “problem” persists!

Some customers (however few) leave – Even fewer joins: This is a VERY real problem for any entity outside the non-profit realm!

edit: Heck, even non-profit org’s offer less with fewer followers ;-)

But you’re making the assumption and it’s a bold assumption that the reason they’re leaving is HOT difficulty. Maybe some people are leaving because WvW is no fun for them anymore. There’s a lot of complaints about WvW> Maybe some are leaving because they only like instanced content and raids aren’t enough. Maybe some are leaving becaues there’s not enough difficult content, and they’ve done it all. Maybe some are leaving because they don’t like the balance changes, or the elite spec for their profession.

Unless you can put a cause and effect like this is hard so many people leave as a definitive, and you can’t, then you can’t really make the argument you’re trying to make

Even MMOs that get easier lose players over time.

Edit: Not to mention there may be little correlation between the amount of money the gem store is producing and how many people are playing. The free to play crowd may represent reasonable numbers but may be less likely to buy stuff in the gem store, and players like me, who have everything, may not like the new stuff being introduced in the gem store. I spend less than I once did on this game.

Vayne.8563:

But you’re making the assumption and it’s a bold assumption that the reason they’re leaving is HOT difficulty.

This is wrong!
I specifically said that some players “find HoT unfun, grindy, unfriendly towards new players and simply not worth their time”. I even went on to say that “those players might be a small minority”.
I stopped playing for several reasons. Difficulty was not one, so why would I assume that to be the main reason?

I actually doubt that even Anet knows why people stop playing and I’m surprised they don’t seem to ask players whose activitylevel suddenly drop from >50 hours to ~1 hour a month.

Bottom line is: HoT underperformed and f2p conversion is lower than expected!
The mantra: “You just need to keep doing something you dislike until you like it” clearly does not work in a highly competetive field.

scrumsome.7198:

Vayne.8563:

But you’re making the assumption and it’s a bold assumption that the reason they’re leaving is HOT difficulty.

This is wrong!
I specifically said that some players “find HoT unfun, grindy, unfriendly towards new players and simply not worth their time”. I even went on to say that “those players might be a small minority”.
I stopped playing for several reasons. Difficulty was not one, so why would I assume that to be the main reason?

I actually doubt that even Anet knows why people stop playing and I’m surprised they don’t seem to ask players whose activitylevel suddenly drop from >50 hours to ~1 hour a month.

Bottom line is: HoT underperformed and f2p conversion is lower than expected!
The mantra: “You just need to keep doing something you dislike until you like it” clearly does not work in a highly competetive field.

Right the point is this post is about the game being unplayable solo. Enough people can play it solo to make that proposition a false one, even if some people can’t. But as always it’s a point of thresholds.

There are people who couldn’t play core Tyria solo either and complained about difficulty. Should we make the game easy enough for them? If we did, how many other people would leave.

That’s really the issue with this entire argument. The idea that people left because the game is too easy/hard or anything else is just a guess.

People seem to think that there opinions are shared by enough people to make a difference. But of course they have no way of knowing if the game was made just the way they liked it that things wouldn’t be worse now.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Vegeta.2563:

Solo’d all of HoT Story, and everything from Living World Season 3.. so far.. what’s the problem?

Obviously, not a problem for you. Some people in the thread are pointing out it’s a problem for them and they fear it’s a problem for too many coming into the game new today.

as other have said, the issue is not that people have said they find HOT more difficult, its that people are trying to say its unplayable for all casuals, or simply unplayable based on thread title, which is absolutely incorrect. Theres 35 zones in GW2, 3 Hot zones are slightly more difficult, so 90% + of the world zones is trivial already..

Vayne.8563:

There are people who couldn’t play core Tyria solo either and complained about difficulty. Should we make the game easy enough for them? If we did, how many other people would leave.

Either some form of vertical progression should be added to allow players to casually play through older content, or the difficulty of the core game should be reverted to how it was in beta.

Just look at the people calling the core game easy for example. Why is it easy? Because they’re overloading on vertical progression to make it easy. Not only does HoT not offer any form of that, it’s also no longer balanced for low geared levelers, so suddenly they no longer have that crutch. Most MMOs are like the core game, where the difficulty is faked due to vertical progression, but that’s also what allows everyone to play through it. Here, those who can’t are expected to group up or quit.

The lack of a traditional experience can also be a major problem. New players simply following the story for example will end up in HoT wearing only rares with no upgrades or accessories. Traditionally, the first few quests would provide you with everything you needed.

the hot zones are designed for players who have already played through 30 zones that are now utterly trivialized by the upgrades we got in HOT – elites, gliding, more exotics. You cant balance a zone at this stage for both players who skip content and gear and the general populace. As for gear, exotic is plenty for HOT. Hot is designed to offer content for those that want more of a challenge than in the other 30 zones. Those who want an easier challenge already have 90 % of the world space to play in.

Djinn.9245:

Healix.5819:

Djinn.9245:

Why is it that Anet doesn’t seem to care about this? Why didn’t they predict this and build some kind of notification so that new players know why the map is empty and how to find maps that have other people?

Of course ArenaNet cares. Earnings are down 25% compared to the year prior to HoT’s announcement. They simply don’t have the resources to waste and even if they did, it’s far too late to matter. They’re better off forgetting HoT and focusing on the next expansion, as that’ll actually sell the game.

At least for now, GW2 will continue to get new players. And those (who don’t read the forums lol) will buy HoT. And then they will come to the forums and make exactly the same complaints. And because Anet has done nothing about it, HoT will cost them some number of those new players.

So I disagree that they should do nothing about it. Its not like HoT is just one small part of the game. It is an entire expansion that is practically required if people want enough HP and MP.

It’s an issue for sure. They’ve stuffed around for several years now, changing this system and that, while content and the quality of the content has suffered horribly. HoT was the culmination of a rushed delivery, and bad execution.

I can’t help but wonder if their giving up on making Guild Wars 2 “different and unique” from other MMO’s, with things like Raids being added (how very dull and predictable) is as reaction to their game vision failure, and falling revenues.

Whatever happens HoT is a still a mess for new players, and it will only become more and more of an issue, unless they re-balance a lot of the old HoT maps. It’s a bit like the old personal story and season 1 – a mess that sits like an eyesore and they won’t or can’t fix it. Some of the very recent content is very good though, so maybe they are getting their act together.

We better hope the next xpac is AMAZING, because if they stumble like they did with HoT, it won’t end well.

Healix.5819:

Vayne.8563:

There are people who couldn’t play core Tyria solo either and complained about difficulty. Should we make the game easy enough for them? If we did, how many other people would leave.

Either some form of vertical progression should be added to allow players to casually play through older content, or the difficulty of the core game should be reverted to how it was in beta.

Just look at the people calling the core game easy for example. Why is it easy? Because they’re overloading on vertical progression to make it easy. Not only does HoT not offer any form of that, it’s also no longer balanced for low geared levelers, so suddenly they no longer have that crutch. Most MMOs are like the core game, where the difficulty is faked due to vertical progression, but that’s also what allows everyone to play through it. Here, those who can’t are expected to group up or quit.

The lack of a traditional experience can also be a major problem. New players simply following the story for example will end up in HoT wearing only rares with no upgrades or accessories. Traditionally, the first few quests would provide you with everything you needed.

I’d love hard modes of the old maps, like in GW1 where you had to clear them out. But they are so big, it might not work. I dunno.

I think the main problem is not “how hard” HoT is, but rather how badly the core game handles the players.

I must not have created one character in the last year or so, so I apologize if my information is incorrect, but I remember having to figure out most of the stuff by myself. And that was before the integration of the LFG, and many other mechanics.

Yes there are pop-ups, and in that regard, it may lie with the player to pay attention to these, but I still feel like this form of tutorial is more invasive than helping. On top of that, I feel like the emphasis on dodging and kiting around mobs in the core game is very weak compared to HoT maps. I can probably still solo Champions in the Ruins of Orr, which I really am not able to do in HoT. The difference in difficulty levels is exponential, which is not necessarily a bad thing, as it’s a breath of fresh air for older players.

But I can get that it can be very frustrating and disgruntling for players who do not have the years of experience of others, or dealt heavily in PvP / WvW, or even have a large guild or a large amount of friends ready to do these maps.
The playerbase in HoT is also less… friendly, more grindy. The necessity of being many to do metas makes other players poorly receptive or ready to help other players, especially if it’s unrelated to the meta that is happening, and it’s a stark change from the core game, which does not hint at this steep difficulty at all.

I don’t think that HoT is too hard, I think it’s just right for players needing that little bit of “more” they lacked from the core game. However I don’t feel like the latter prepare players sufficiently for how grindy and challenging the Heart of Maguuma is.

I mean, I remember when they revamped Tequatl and the number of time it was failed before the first organized instance managed to get it right. It was an awful thing, which looks comparatively like baby-walk to the amount of organization needed for the meta events in the Heart. Mordremoth is challenging on itself, not withstanding the 1h long meta taking place beforehand.

Hell, I remember at launch, when Veterans felt like hell, and everything was new and hard and undiscovered. It’s a feeling I’m rediscovering in Heart of Maguuma that is not present in the core game, because the player base is already old, the mechanic is now autonomous and well oiled. New players don’t have to figure it out.

Healix.5819:

Vayne.8563:

There are people who couldn’t play core Tyria solo either and complained about difficulty. Should we make the game easy enough for them? If we did, how many other people would leave.

Either some form of vertical progression should be added to allow players to casually play through older content, or the difficulty of the core game should be reverted to how it was in beta.

Just look at the people calling the core game easy for example. Why is it easy? Because they’re overloading on vertical progression to make it easy. Not only does HoT not offer any form of that, it’s also no longer balanced for low geared levelers, so suddenly they no longer have that crutch. Most MMOs are like the core game, where the difficulty is faked due to vertical progression, but that’s also what allows everyone to play through it. Here, those who can’t are expected to group up or quit.

The lack of a traditional experience can also be a major problem. New players simply following the story for example will end up in HoT wearing only rares with no upgrades or accessories. Traditionally, the first few quests would provide you with everything you needed.

Gear is certainly a factor, but it isn’t the only factor. Many HoT enemies are delightfully (or frustratingly!) vicious. For example, shadowleapers, bladedancers, pocket raptors, smokescales, mounted mordrem, stoneheads, and bristlebacks to name a few. All of these enemies have mechanics that can’t easily be ignored. They require players to develop strategies and utilize the abilities available to them to handle the mechanics in some way. The core game rarely challenges players this way.

AliamRationem.5172:

They require players to develop strategies and utilize the abilities available to them to handle the mechanics in some way.

Not when you’re a high damage build. Shadowleapers for example might look special if you let them, but what they simply come down to is entering melee range and killing them before their first shot. I run trash alts through HoT in the downtime (random profession/build 1-80, only equipped in what the story provided, then delete) and the overall most deadly regular enemy has actually been chak zappers, simply because of their retaliation-like shield.

The trick about the core game is that vertical progression makes a huge difference. It’s not just your gear, but your level. The higher you are compared to your target, the more damage you deal and the less you take. If you only play in equal+ level areas and normalize your gear to that of the smith merchant, you’ll find that the enemies are capable of taking chunks out of your health while taking far longer to kill. Enemies are far less mobile compared to HoT, but they do have their own deadly attacks to watch out for. For example, a destroyer troll will easily kill you if you attack its fire shield, a risen carrier will/nearly 1 shot you if you let it, or the leap of a brood wolf can double hit in melee for devastating damage. As a simple comparison, the pirates in Gendarran or Bloodtide deal similar damage to the White Mantle in Lake Doric.

Healix.5819:

AliamRationem.5172:

They require players to develop strategies and utilize the abilities available to them to handle the mechanics in some way.

Not when you’re a high damage build. Shadowleapers for example might look special if you let them, but what they simply come down to is entering melee range and killing them before their first shot. I run trash alts through HoT in the downtime (random profession/build 1-80, only equipped in what the story provided, then delete) and the overall most deadly regular enemy has actually been chak zappers, simply because of their retaliation-like shield.

The trick about the core game is that vertical progression makes a huge difference. It’s not just your gear, but your level. The higher you are compared to your target, the more damage you deal and the less you take. If you only play in equal+ level areas and normalize your gear to that of the smith merchant, you’ll find that the enemies are capable of taking chunks out of your health while taking far longer to kill. Enemies are far less mobile compared to HoT, but they do have their own deadly attacks to watch out for. For example, a destroyer troll will easily kill you if you attack its fire shield, a risen carrier will/nearly 1 shot you if you let it, or the leap of a brood wolf can double hit in melee for devastating damage. As a simple comparison, the pirates in Gendarran or Bloodtide deal similar damage to the White Mantle in Lake Doric.

The point was that it isn’t only gear that makes core enemies fodder. Congrats on beating the shadowleaper boss and finding a handful of examples in all of core, though. Nice effort!

Clearly, the mechanics of HoT enemies are a bit more complicated. You don’t typically find large groups of mixed enemies such as mordrem snipers shooting arrows and dropping lines on the ground while tormentors apply condi, tendrils spit poison, and mordrem cavalry charge at you from all directions. That’s commonplace in HoT and rare to non-existent in core, whether you can power through them or not.

scrumsome.7198:

Some customers (however few) leave – Even fewer joins

The thing is, players who paid for HoT, and then leave shortly afterwards, already gave their money to Anet, on the other hand players who start with the free version and then quit never paid anything. As much as you are saying some players are leaving because HoT is hard, I’m wondering how many stop playing GW2 before even reaching higher levels because they find the game really boring.

I think the problem with HoT is the sudden spike in difficulty, especially for “new” players who go to HoT as fresh level 80s. Instead of tweaking the difficulty of HoT though, I’d say that tweaking the rest of the game is more important in the long run. It will keep new players interested with the game so they don’t get bored and leave and at the same time provide a stepping stone for the harder content.

It’s highly unlikely that they will revisit old content any time in the future, they prefer adding new content, which is understandable, but I think the pre-HoT content needs some tweaks and a balance pass.

When you go to HOT as a new player, it should tell you straight out that this zone is difficult and the game should recommend content to do before you actually do HOT. It’s not unreasonable.

This game lacks a breadcrumb trail. As someone who has been here from the beginning, I didn’t find the jump from Living Story Season 2 to HOT to be that big. But not everyone has Living Story Season 2 and that’s a major problem. Even if people did, not everyone cares enough to play it.

HoT is meant to be end game content for max level characters. It’s supposed to challenge you. I think it might have been better to let people know in game, so they go in braced.

maddoctor.2738:

I think the problem with HoT is the sudden spike in difficulty, especially for “new” players who go to HoT as fresh level 80s. Instead of tweaking the difficulty of HoT though, I’d say that tweaking the rest of the game is more important in the long run.

HoT comes with a level 80 boost which most players buying HoT (+ core) as their intro to the game are going to use right off.

Djinn.9245:

maddoctor.2738:

I think the problem with HoT is the sudden spike in difficulty, especially for “new” players who go to HoT as fresh level 80s. Instead of tweaking the difficulty of HoT though, I’d say that tweaking the rest of the game is more important in the long run.

HoT comes with a level 80 boost which most players buying HoT (+ core) as their intro to the game are going to use right off.

This is true. I’ve seen a few players in my guild use the level 80 booster and some of them can’t handle HoT because they’ve leveled up a profession they don’t know and some of those people have left the game.

But out of the people I know who have used it, most of them get on fine in HoT, most with minimal help. It depends on the background of the specific gamer. There are people who came to play HOT because they heard it was harder, after being bored by core Tyria for a couple of years.

I originally started this game back in beta and loved it right out of the gate. The combat system felt amazing and I really enjoyed the classes, leveling system, focus on exploring…everything really. However, once I hit 80 and got full exotics and PvPed quite a bit…I started to get bored. My main reason was the game offered me no real challenging content and I wasn’t used to the sort of “endgame” that GW2 was offering.

I came back to the game recently because of what I read about HoT and I feel like it was exactly what the game needed. The general difficulty of the new zones feels perfect to me…I can roam around and do what I want for the most part but I can still die if I am careless. The new metas, gear progression, story quests…all of it has been a ton of fun for me. Even aesthetically I love the new zones. They have an incredible amount of depth and they don’t feel like just a long safe path with some oddly placed bad guys waiting at designated areas.

My point is…I keep seeing people talk about how HoT is turning people away, but try to consider that it is also bringing people in. Me and roughly 10 of my friends have started playing the game again and HoT is the reason we are here. It offers an experience that the core game lacked. I understand it is not for everyone…but just remember that it is not as simple as “new players can’t handle HoT” because it isn’t true.

Vayne.8563:

When you go to HOT as a new player, it should tell you straight out that this zone is difficult and the game should recommend content to do before you actually do HOT. It’s not unreasonable.

This game lacks a breadcrumb trail. As someone who has been here from the beginning, I didn’t find the jump from Living Story Season 2 to HOT to be that big. But not everyone has Living Story Season 2 and that’s a major problem. Even if people did, not everyone cares enough to play it.

HoT is meant to be end game content for max level characters. It’s supposed to challenge you. I think it might have been better to let people know in game, so they go in braced.

the game doesn’t know the skill level of a player or need to, the player themselves can simply go to the zone and will quickly see for themselves if they want to play (and port out again in 2 seconds flat if they so desire).

Old fashioned learning through discovery – there was a time that people understood and relished this over dull predictability and dot to dot instructions.

Djinn.9245:

maddoctor.2738:

I think the problem with HoT is the sudden spike in difficulty, especially for “new” players who go to HoT as fresh level 80s. Instead of tweaking the difficulty of HoT though, I’d say that tweaking the rest of the game is more important in the long run.

HoT comes with a level 80 boost which most players buying HoT (+ core) as their intro to the game are going to use right off.

Yes that level 80 boost was made so you could TEST level 80 characters in SW and see how the game plays at the highest level. Or to boost an alt. Not to skip the rest of the game and go directly into Heart of Thorns. They should’ve made it so you need at least one proper level 80 character before the boost is usable. It’s not the game’s fault is someone skips the entire game and goes into the expansion.

vesica tempestas.1563:

Old fashioned learning through discovery – there was a time that people understood and relished this over dull predictability and dot to dot instructions.

Unfortunately, some gamers seem more interested in convenience than anything else. Having to think and perhaps struggle a bit is inconvenient. I believe that the ubiquity of TV is at least partially the cause. TV only requires that you pay your cable bill and turn on the TV to be entertained. The only struggle might be finding something worth watching.

Some gamers seem to want a similar experience in their games. Buy the game, turn it on, be entertained without any struggle, with no significant effort or investment. Just look at the massive popularity of the mindless Facebook games. While there is nothing inherently wrong with that attitude, those who want that kind of experience in a given game cannot be catered to with the same content that is aimed at players who want something more than minimally active amusement.

There are some interesting things on this part of the forum O_o

Advise to casual players :
- Read the text and effects associated to the skills.
- Open the trait line tab and read trait’s effects
- Use your skill using what you learned from reading…
- Use the dodge double-tap or assign a key to it
- Don’t be afraid to change traits and utilities

all that can be done in 1/2h without moving from queensdale.

Look on YouTube and you will see most (if not all) of the HoT content can be soloed. I am a new player that hasn’t touched an MMO in over 10 years except for occasionally playing GW1. I play Mesmer, mess up a lot, take hours on JP and have frustrated a fellow player in Fractal because of my lack of skill. Yet, I see myself improving a little every day. The first time I went to Brisban Wildlands, I could barely get off the ridge without dying. Now I look forward to going to Auric Basin to see all the new stuff and try to get Mastery Points

Also, there are MANY helpful players in the game. Just today, I was struggling with getting up a mountain to shoot a Karka. Someone in cat form did it several times so that I could see and then I was finally able to do it. I thanked them and went on. There are Guilds with patient people who want to help and will help You with HoT.

This is a great game and I look forward to the day I can solo HoT and Dungeons but for now I have five more Karka to kill, Dailies to do, my Personal Story and HoT to finish, other Professions I want to try, Crafting, JPs to master and… and… my point is there is just so much to do and if you watch videos, read about builds and practice, you may be able to solo HoT.

Well, I can say HoT brought me back to GW2… but to core Tyria, not HoT.

I’m just not good enough to play HoT – and I’m not willing to learn. Sorry, I’m a bad player.
A steep learning curve is not having fun, is “working” IMHO and it defeats my particular purpose when playing this game.

On the other hand, thanks to HoT abilities I am more capable of enjoying core GW2.
Gliding makes it easier to access those difficult PoIs and Vistas and the increased damage makes those pesky undead more bearable when I’m cruising Orr.

I can play in a relaxed manner and THAT’S EXACTLY WHAY IM LOOKING FOR.
For God’s sake, not everyone is looking for “a challenging experience”.

Also, I honestly agree with something JPicard said a few days ago:

"""But it does not matter what you or me think, feel, … everyone can’t be happy, have learned this long ago. But Arenanet earnings will show if they did right or wrong with HOT. :-)"""

Justfor.6018:

On the other hand, thanks to HoT abilities I am more capable of enjoying core GW2.

If you play through the first half of season 3, episode 4, you’ll unlock a new level 80 downed ability for your account that passively adds life leech to your attacks. It basically doubles your damage, can out heal enemies and since each outgoing hit will heal you, AoEs can instantly rally yourself.

IndigoSundown.5419:

vesica tempestas.1563:

Old fashioned learning through discovery – there was a time that people understood and relished this over dull predictability and dot to dot instructions.

Unfortunately, some gamers seem more interested in convenience than anything else. Having to think and perhaps struggle a bit is inconvenient. I believe that the ubiquity of TV is at least partially the cause. TV only requires that you pay your cable bill and turn on the TV to be entertained. The only struggle might be finding something worth watching.

Some gamers seem to want a similar experience in their games. Buy the game, turn it on, be entertained without any struggle, with no significant effort or investment. Just look at the massive popularity of the mindless Facebook games. While there is nothing inherently wrong with that attitude, those who want that kind of experience in a given game cannot be catered to with the same content that is aimed at players who want something more than minimally active amusement.

Games are for entertainment – you know, fun? I’m not sure why you are trying to say that how anyone PLAYS a game is “wrong”. If I play GW2 by doing nothing but craft and never go out of a city, that would still be a completely reasonable way to play.

Djinn.9245:

IndigoSundown.5419:

vesica tempestas.1563:

Old fashioned learning through discovery – there was a time that people understood and relished this over dull predictability and dot to dot instructions.

Unfortunately, some gamers seem more interested in convenience than anything else. Having to think and perhaps struggle a bit is inconvenient. I believe that the ubiquity of TV is at least partially the cause. TV only requires that you pay your cable bill and turn on the TV to be entertained. The only struggle might be finding something worth watching.

Some gamers seem to want a similar experience in their games. Buy the game, turn it on, be entertained without any struggle, with no significant effort or investment. Just look at the massive popularity of the mindless Facebook games. While there is nothing inherently wrong with that attitude, those who want that kind of experience in a given game cannot be catered to with the same content that is aimed at players who want something more than minimally active amusement.

Games are for entertainment – you know, fun? I’m not sure why you are trying to say that how anyone PLAYS a game is “wrong”. If I play GW2 by doing nothing but craft and never go out of a city, that would still be a completely reasonable way to play.

he is saying that some people don’t have fun and blame the game when actually the root cause is elsewhere.

Justfor.6018:

Well, I can say HoT brought me back to GW2… but to core Tyria, not HoT.

I’m just not good enough to play HoT – and I’m not willing to learn. Sorry, I’m a bad player.
A steep learning curve is not having fun, is “working” IMHO and it defeats my particular purpose when playing this game.

On the other hand, thanks to HoT abilities I am more capable of enjoying core GW2.
Gliding makes it easier to access those difficult PoIs and Vistas and the increased damage makes those pesky undead more bearable when I’m cruising Orr.

I can play in a relaxed manner and THAT’S EXACTLY WHAY IM LOOKING FOR.
For God’s sake, not everyone is looking for “a challenging experience”.

Also, I honestly agree with something JPicard said a few days ago:

"""But it does not matter what you or me think, feel, … everyone can’t be happy, have learned this long ago. But Arenanet earnings will show if they did right or wrong with HOT. :-)"""

Sorry, if you’re not looking for a challenge you’re a filthy casual (like me lol).

Games are for fun… within certain basic rules, which usually include some form of activity, participation and even commitment. And yes, challenge.

You can’t expect to get fun from soccer by just staying idly next to the goal.
You can’t aspire to get fun from crosswords if you take the answers from a dictionary.
You can’t demand to get fun from chess if you refuse to learn how to move the pieces, (Or if you are not willing to lose).

vesica tempestas.1563:

Djinn.9245:

IndigoSundown.5419:

vesica tempestas.1563:

Old fashioned learning through discovery – there was a time that people understood and relished this over dull predictability and dot to dot instructions.

Unfortunately, some gamers seem more interested in convenience than anything else. Having to think and perhaps struggle a bit is inconvenient. I believe that the ubiquity of TV is at least partially the cause. TV only requires that you pay your cable bill and turn on the TV to be entertained. The only struggle might be finding something worth watching.

Some gamers seem to want a similar experience in their games. Buy the game, turn it on, be entertained without any struggle, with no significant effort or investment. Just look at the massive popularity of the mindless Facebook games. While there is nothing inherently wrong with that attitude, those who want that kind of experience in a given game cannot be catered to with the same content that is aimed at players who want something more than minimally active amusement.

Games are for entertainment – you know, fun? I’m not sure why you are trying to say that how anyone PLAYS a game is “wrong”. If I play GW2 by doing nothing but craft and never go out of a city, that would still be a completely reasonable way to play.

he is saying that some people don’t have fun and blame the game when actually the root cause is elsewhere.

That’s not how I interpret what he said, but whatever.

In the case of GW2, people have been playing core quite happily and suddenly they give us HoT. In that case, players who are upset by this change are not looking in the wrong place for their gaming amusement. They had it all through GW2 as it was initially presented.

Ardid.7203:

Games are for fun… within certain basic rules, which usually include some form of activity, participation and even commitment. And yes, challenge.

You can’t expect to get fun from soccer by just staying idly next to the goal.
You can’t aspire to get fun from crosswords if you take the answers from a dictionary.
You can’t demand to get fun from chess if you refuse to learn how to move the pieces, (Or if you are not willing to lose).

You can’t? According to whom?

Ardid.7203:

You can’t expect to get fun from soccer by just staying idly next to the goal.
You can’t aspire to get fun from crosswords if you take the answers from a dictionary.
You can’t demand to get fun from chess if you refuse to learn how to move the pieces, (Or if you are not willing to lose).

Some people find it fun to watch.

A dictionary isn’t going to help, but regardless, some find the simple completion of something fun.

You can play virtual chess without knowing how to play. I remember doing just that back in the days of Windows 9x at school, as it was one the few games available, plus word pinball.

Djinn.9245:

vesica tempestas.1563:

Djinn.9245:

IndigoSundown.5419:

vesica tempestas.1563:

Old fashioned learning through discovery – there was a time that people understood and relished this over dull predictability and dot to dot instructions.

Unfortunately, some gamers seem more interested in convenience than anything else. Having to think and perhaps struggle a bit is inconvenient. I believe that the ubiquity of TV is at least partially the cause. TV only requires that you pay your cable bill and turn on the TV to be entertained. The only struggle might be finding something worth watching.

Some gamers seem to want a similar experience in their games. Buy the game, turn it on, be entertained without any struggle, with no significant effort or investment. Just look at the massive popularity of the mindless Facebook games. While there is nothing inherently wrong with that attitude, those who want that kind of experience in a given game cannot be catered to with the same content that is aimed at players who want something more than minimally active amusement.

Games are for entertainment – you know, fun? I’m not sure why you are trying to say that how anyone PLAYS a game is “wrong”. If I play GW2 by doing nothing but craft and never go out of a city, that would still be a completely reasonable way to play.

he is saying that some people don’t have fun and blame the game when actually the root cause is elsewhere.

That’s not how I interpret what he said, but whatever.

In the case of GW2, people have been playing core quite happily and suddenly they give us HoT. In that case, players who are upset by this change are not looking in the wrong place for their gaming amusement. They had it all through GW2 as it was initially presented.

However core did not dissappear, 90%+ of the GW2 zones are still trivial and perfectly playable, and in fact easier with new elites, gliding and more accessable gear. The older hard zones also became trivialised, e.g orr so expanding content for those that do not want challenge.

The question should be asked, how much of the open world should be non challenging if 90% is somehow not enough? Consider this is already leaving less than 10% of the open world for people who want challenging content and those less skilled players will eventually find that 10% easy as well.