Guild Wars 2

Soon.5240:

Ayrilana.1396:

Ardenwolfe.8590:

And you know what we call that? Apathy. And it explains a lot about why the game is in the condition it is now. Again, I hope at least one developer watches it and not dismiss it out of hand like you just did.

But, again, I’m not holding my breath.

At what point was I dismissing those complaints? There are pros and cons to every design decision. They’re not going to make everyone happy. They also have development goals of their own.

How about if they implemented things the way that you feel they should be. What would you say if the people who enjoy things as they are now complained? Would you simply “dismiss” their complaints and be “apathetic”?

Per your line of reasoning, why make any changes what so ever? Why risk the expenditure of large amounts of money, man hours and the personal reputations of the developers behind the expansion if the best possible outcome is, “Well, gee, some people will be happy and some won’t.”

If that, in fact, is how Anet approached HoT, the it explains a great deal.

But of course, that is not how the persons at Anet — who envisioned the future direction HoT was to take the game — pitched the expansion to their investors. HoT was to re energize the game, bring in new players, expand it’s presence in the community.

Not just be a wash.

That’s not what I’m saying.

Archdevil.1748:

It is not fun. A lot of people hate it like me. It does not give the same feeling as Core Tyria. A greater challenge they said. Better rewards they said. All I get is the same junk. I don’t have any incentive to go there. I am better off farming Silverwastes. It is more fun. And all the timer madness is broken and casual unfriendly!

So let me get this straight:

• The game is a failure if you don’t like it.
• It’s a success if it’s more like the content that already exists.

For me, a boring expansion would be extending the old game to the new zone — if I want the old game, I can play that without spending any money. However, that said, I wouldn’t call that a failure, just not my cup of tea.

Gw2 only feel a success cuz there is no other mmo out there that has a game engine quite like it.

But over all is more of a FAILURE cuz of it’s core UNBALANCE mechanics, BAD Mod such as the new WvW map, 1 FAILED new spvp map (stronghold), VERY LITTLE pve content that feels more of a living story update instead of an expansion with cool cinematics & lots of work put into it. Grind & Repetitiveness witch i dont mind the grind that much. But it feels LAZY at it’s core & the grind is more there as fluff & filler then anything else. Focusing on the wrong priorities such as uninteresting Esport

RAIDS is prolly the only big & good thing that came out in this expansion.

In sum, i can not stand the hype & how glorious Anet & twitch sale outs makes Gw2 out to be. It’s not, & the problem existed since the last 3 years. I know this game is on it’s last legs. 6 month i say.. 6!

If you mean “HoT’s not selling well”, none of us have any accurate data to make that call. If you mean “people are complaining in the forums about HoT”, so what’s new? Pre-HoT, you could go to every profession’s forum and hear how handicapped their profession was and how many buffs they needed.

If you mean “HoT doesn’t add much to the game”, I’d disagree.

Yes, there are definite areas to polish, including revisiting base classes to fix issues that Elites plug. (For example, Necro has serious problems that Reaper plugs perfectly, making Reaper awesome, but doing nothing for a non-Elite build diversity.)

And ANet still has gaps in responsibility — at least I think that’s what it is — where major annoyances fall through the cracks. For example, over-spawning of mobs in open-world situations, interlocking gating that causes major pains in advancement, and deaths in zones where 80% of WPs are contested and annoying, CC’ing mobs make it easier to quit an event than to try to get back.

But the Elite trait lines are quite good. Some didn’t have enough work and need more, but overall the lines are viable and interesting. (Depends on the game mode you play and how min-max obsessive you are.) The way plait trait lines fit into the existing scheme is much better and less bolted-on than other MMOs I’ve played.

Masteries have poor gating, but I’m really coming to appreciate how they let you switch between alts based on how you feel that day, and still make progress across all of your characters. That’s as anti-grinding as it gets, and it takes the simple account-bound-item concept to a new level.

I had a much longer post that the internet ate, so I won’t go on. I’m actually liking HoT more now than the day it came out. In the next couple of months, ANet has the chance to finish some things that were rushed and to balance some things, and then HoT will be amazing. For now, it’s worth the money spent, and I’m having fun.

DresdenAllblack.1249:

Let’s talk six months from now on how HoT is viewed. When LS 3 bores and only one other wing of the raid has dropped.

Any MMO expac should be judged on whether or not it can carry the population until the next expansion.

Does anyone think HoT can do that? Seriously?

no, it cant. HoT has already lost me. I only hit the new zones to help others with HP’s and getting down to DS. That’s it. I dont even Raid due to the ‘meta’.

I do old world bosses, Teq, and FoTM.

GW2 is on a single thread IMHO. If another MMO drops that doesn’t have a monthly and is as appealing as GW2 has been prior to HoT, lets just say I fear for GW2’s future.

Druitt.7629:

If you mean “HoT’s not selling well”, none of us have any accurate data to make that call. If you mean “people are complaining in the forums about HoT”, so what’s new? Pre-HoT, you could go to every profession’s forum and hear how handicapped their profession was and how many buffs they needed.

If you mean “HoT doesn’t add much to the game”, I’d disagree.

Nope, it did sale well. so i dint ment that.
& once the initial hype & few month passed, you come to the conclusion it dint really add much to the game. Just the illusion of it.

Good for you you enjoyed it. most are already leaving for other games. Like i said. 6 month you’l be singing another tune.

Vieux P.1238:

& once the initial hype & few month passed, you come to the conclusion it dint really add much to the game. Just the illusion of it.

Kind of how I felt when they added Factions and Nightfall to GW.

As someone who mostly PvP and WvW before HOT. We see things differently but there are a few things i completely agree with.

1) The story line
I havent been able to finish the story line yet but ive done some of it and im actually really confused about where i have gotten. SPOILERS COMING, why do i take the egg and give it to these other people at the temple? Why am i ok with them having it? Why do none of my companions involved with any pc of it. They are just like what ever you choose boss im ok with. The people of the story literally are lifeless.
GW1 was so great because of the story line. Literally i hated most of the things about GW1 coming from WoW and champions online and other games but the story was so interesting and fun. What has happened to that?

2) Joining friends
The first time i went into verdint brink my guild mates were trying to get me to go places with them to do things but i couldnt do them. Even now they can go fight some boss for a daily thing which is great for them. I cant join them since ive played more pvp. I havent unlocked anything since i play PvP. I have opened up 6-7 mastery things like gliding techniques and bouncing mushrooms and so on. Just seems odd i cant do thing with them even though we have played equal amounts.

3) WvW and PvP
WvW is in rework mode and i love the comment he made about how lazy it looks. They just plopped a map on top of the old map and said bam here this is new. Wow what a joke. The PvP community feels completely lied too when you talk Leader Boards, fair play for old and new specs, as well and many other things.

4) Guild Halls and Scribing
There isnt any thing really fun about this. My guild members and I only go in there to upgrade the hall and even then we are sitting going is this worth our time and mats. Everything about it feels like work.

I honestly feel like people stay with GW2 because the game play is simply alot of fun. We can all see how awesome alot of the mechanics and maps are in the game. It just the game itself is not fun. Ive been coming to this slow conclusion and what hit me was what this person on the review said. I probably would of left the game had i not had made friends with people from my guild.

I will probably still come for dailys but its to that point that if i dont see them on. Then theres no reason for me to be on either.

Heart of Thorns did some things right, but it also did plenty wrong.

One thing I and my friends note is that the HoT maps feel simultaneously busier and less-alive than the mainland maps. In Kryta, one can explore, and find new things off the beaten path. In Verdant Brink, there is only that beaten path, and everything there is to discover is marked by HPs, mastery points, a tough enemy, etc. It feels like it exists as a challenge and nothing more. You might argue that it’s intended, because the jungle is supposed to be deep in enemy territory, but Frostgorge Sound has the living feel, and somehow, even Orr does it better

BIGHARSHNESS.3510:

Archdevil.1748:

It is not fun. A lot of people hate it like me. It does not give the same feeling as Core Tyria. A greater challenge they said. Better rewards they said. All I get is the same junk. I don’t have any incentive to go there. I am better off farming Silverwastes. It is more fun. And all the timer madness is broken and casual unfriendly!

Farming chests is fun? Pls.

and farming ores that are gated by masteries that requires more time gated kitten is more fun? Pls.

DresdenAllblack.1249:

Let’s talk six months from now on how HoT is viewed. When LS 3 bores and only one other wing of the raid has dropped.

Any MMO expac should be judged on whether or not it can carry the population until the next expansion.

Does anyone think HoT can do that? Seriously?

I don’t think it was ever designed to, so using that as a criteria for failure or not doesn’t make sense.

kdaddy.5431:

I honestly feel like people stay with GW2 because the game play is simply a lot of fun. We can all see how awesome a lot of the mechanics and maps are in the game. It’s just the game itself is not fun. I’ve been coming to this slow conclusion and what hit me was what this person on the review said. I probably would of left the game had i not had made friends with people from my guild.

That’s about where I stand. I love my characters. I still love GW2’s combat system and character options. But going into Magus Falls (or Dry Top) is an exercise in time-gated frustration that doesn’t respect me as a player.

When the game unsubtly tells me “you’re not allowed to explore until I say you can,” there’s something terribly wrong, especially when it blocks character/account progression. Hide my rewards behind group metas and big events, but don’t do that to my mastery insights and hero challenges.

DresdenAllblack.1249:

Let’s talk six months from now on how HoT is viewed. When LS 3 bores and only one other wing of the raid has dropped.

Any MMO expac should be judged on whether or not it can carry the population until the next expansion.

Does anyone think HoT can do that? Seriously?

Most MMO’s would be failures then as they typically see population (e.g. Subscription) drops several months after an expansion hits. Just look at WoW as an example. I don’t think the bolded part of your post is realistic.

kdaddy.5431:

4) Guild Halls and Scribing
There isnt any thing really fun about this. My guild members and I only go in there to upgrade the hall and even then we are sitting going is this worth our time and mats. Everything about it feels like work.

You have know idea how many times i said so as well & how many arguments i gotten from ppl on the forum saying the opposite.

I’ll say it again. Guildhall is a waste of tons of resources. In the end, no one spends time in it.

It was a great idea that was badly implemented. & what i mean in badly implemented is that foremost first, a guild hall was meant to be a place to have a guild & guild friends to gather & hang. In the same way & feel when ppl in WoW gathers in front of Ogrimmar. You could spend hours socializing & still be close to your conveniences & friends wile showing off. Man, Anet missed on that one big time by making not only super big maps as guildhalls but also making it it’s own instances. when the only thing that was needed, was to redo the game so that in only major cities, guilds could buy a guild house. Man ppl would hang out & show off & duel in front of the guild house. It would of bin better then WoW Ogrimarr social aspect.

To bad they missed on that one.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I’m not sure it is a failure at all. HoT added a lot of things that are pretty decent.

#1: Harder enemies. I’ve been wanting that for awhile.
#2: Elaborate maps and more involved maps. Always a good thing.
#3: A metroid style of progression where you gain the ability to explore new areas.
#4: The elite specializations are awesome (if a bit power-creepy), and I like playing as most of them.
#5: A large series of collections and achievements for completionists.
#6: Some pretty cool looking skins.
#7: Events that are actually fun to do.

So, I like the xpac, and from what I’ve heard it has sold really well, so I wonder what your standard of failure is.

Agreed on that one.

My issue though is, give me at least the same number/quality of drops that another map gives me for the same amount of time put in. Otherwise, as much fun as it is, I will definitely not repeat the experience that much . What’s the use of doing DS and wasting one hour if for the same amount of time and effort I get 10 times more stuff in Silverwastes? Yea, more boring, but when you work on your ascended stuff you need to look at the drops too.

Vieux P.1238:

kdaddy.5431:

4) Guild Halls and Scribing
There isnt any thing really fun about this. My guild members and I only go in there to upgrade the hall and even then we are sitting going is this worth our time and mats. Everything about it feels like work.

You have know idea how many times i said so as well & how many arguments i gotten from ppl on the forum saying the opposite.

I’ll say it again. Guildhall is a waste of tons of resources. In the end, no one spends time in it.

It was a great idea that was badly implemented. & what i mean in badly implemented is that foremost first, a guild hall was meant to be a place to have a guild & guild friends to gather & hang. In the same way & feel when ppl in WoW gathers in front of Ogrimmar. You could spend hours socializing & still be close to your conveniences & friends wile showing off. Man, Anet missed on that one big time by making not only super big maps as guildhalls but also making it it’s own instances. when the only thing that was needed, was to redo the game so that in only major cities, guilds could buy a guild house. Man ppl would hang out & show off & duel in front of the guild house. It would of bin better then WoW Ogrimarr social aspect.

To bad they missed on that one.

Your idea of a guild hall is not THE idea of a guild hall. You think it’s meant to be a place where people gather and hang out. I’m pretty sure that was never the intention of the guild hall.

This didn’t happen in Guild Wars 1 either, so I’m not sure why you’re measuring the success of guild halls against what is essentially an arbitrary standard.

Guild Halls were always about convenience. In this case, it’s measure on guild progression, which some people got into. It’s mean to be a long term goal.

It was never meant to take people out of the open world for extended periods of time. Instead it’s a meeting place, before missions, because the guild portal takes you right to missions. It’s a place to get buffs, work on scribing if you’re nuts enough to do that.

But it was not meant for people to go and live in. That would have been counter productive.

Any game that has managed to make really good housing, suffers a loss of players in the open world. That’s a lose/lose situation.

My issue with HoT comes down to its price. When I drop $50US on a video game, I expect a full game’s worth of content. 4 meta-based maps and 1 new profession is not an expansion… Certainly not one that’s worth the current sticker price…

IndigoSundown.5419:

I sat through a fair bit of his anti-story rant and that was all I could stomach..

How, exactly, is your post not a rant? By your premise, we should discount anything you say.

Of what your wrote, I read “a fair bit” of your rant about a rant and “that was all I could stomach.”

I didn’t read through every single point of the video admittedly, but I think I will agree with many of his points. As with most things in life, there are always those points that you can find and comment on, but there are good stuff in HoT too.
I’m sure everybody agrees gliding is fun and new. Don’t forget the good points when being so unhappy, just saying.

Long time player and reader of this forums. I regularly check in to see if Arenanet has gotten their kitten together by deciding to make this an actual game that players want to play. But as I read though the forums, I see its a common trend to find threads of how so many people are finally displeased about how shallow this expansion is, and I just don’t get it.

Before HoT even came out, there were many wave of players talking about how bad this expansions was going to be due to the lack of information that came along with the price tag that they were asking for. Nothing justified what they were asking for and its clear that with the lack of promises and fulfillment that the game has stilled yet to receive shows that something must be seriously wrong over there as they were able to sucker punch a lot of you into buying 100$ boxes for more of nothing.

Some issues that the core game had never were solved, on top of that they used the expansion to band-aid what the core game did not have such as improving classes/gimping core classes and then locking it all behind a expansion. How did no one see this coming? I still have not bought the expansion and have refused to further support this game or company as it seems they have more intentions on cash grabbing. I mean, did no one see how disappointed everyone was when the game was announced to go free? They basically encouraged the crowd to clap. I just think that some of their ideas have just been questionable.

So I agree with the points in the video of the OP’s topic. I loved Guild Wars.. especially the original and I think any other Vet would say the same. They probably would also think that GW2 was going to be something totally different in some aspects than what we have today, but because some players are ok with being thrown pieces of bones, instead of receiving the steak we deserve as paying customers, we now have a half baked game. It disappoints me and I even find myself coming back every so often hoping that things have changed only to be disappointed more.

Soon.5240:

IndigoSundown.5419:

I sat through a fair bit of his anti-story rant and that was all I could stomach..

How, exactly, is your post not a rant? By your premise, we should discount anything you say.

Of what your wrote, I read “a fair bit” of your rant about a rant and “that was all I could stomach.”

I did not claim, nor did anyone else claim, that my post was an analysis. That was claimed about the video. Thanks for the tip, though. Next time I’ll leave the personal reaction out.

I watched his whole video. I think he was a bit too dramatic in some of his complaints, and his incredulity and exasperation was kind of annoying. However, he did actually give a lot of specifics in his critique, and I have to agree with most of it. Particularly about the story. Then again, I’m not sure what he was expecting for the story.

Anet has never been good at the story mechanics. It’s something I’ve always felt they really are lacking in. They don’t seem to really want to put any serious effort into it either. I can understand of course, creating a good, compelling story requires a lot of thought, story boarding, cut scene generation, and cost.

Still, when you see a scene like this from MA3 (nearly 4 years ago), with a different commander, you can really see what a compelling scene with the proper music, camera work, and story boarding can accomplish. Watching it still brings a tear to my eye…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6RHg-BCk0g

If only Anet would try a bit harder with story and learn from other game companies. I might be willing to overlook it’s other flaws.

Ghostwind.4380:

I watched his whole video. I think he was a bit too dramatic in some of his complaints, and his incredulity and exasperation was kind of annoying. However, he did actually give a lot of specifics in his critique, and I have to agree with most of it. Particularly about the story. Then again, I’m not sure what he was expecting for the story.

Anet has never been good at the story mechanics. It’s something I’ve always felt they really are lacking in. They don’t seem to really want to put any serious effort into it either. I can understand of course, creating a good, compelling story requires a lot of thought, story boarding, cut scene generation, and cost.

Still, when you see a scene like this from MA3 (nearly 4 years ago), with a different commander, you can really see what a compelling scene with the proper music, camera work, and story boarding can accomplish. Watching it still brings a tear to my eye…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6RHg-BCk0g

If only Anet would try a bit harder with story and learn from other game companies. I might be willing to overlook it’s other flaws.

Comparing a single player game story to an MMO story though is probably not the best thing to do. I haven’t really found stories in MMOs generally to compare to games that focus on stories like single player RPGs. Those entire games are designed around stories. MMOs are designed around other things like progression.

The Guild Wars 2 story compares with the story of most, but not all, MMOs I’ve tried. The exception would be SWToR, which was created by a single player company known for their stories. But single player games in general are better at story. It’s the heart of most single player games.

The video, while not written as a complete analysis for the expansion, was not all negative and he mentioned the open world conflict with the sylvari, albeit briefly. You should not try to rate a video that long based on the first few minutes, IndigoSundown.

Uriel.6310:

They probably would also think that GW2 was going to be something totally different in some aspects than what we have today, but because some players are ok with being thrown pieces of bones, instead of receiving the steak we deserve as paying customers, we now have a half baked game.

While I agree with the rest of your post, you’re letting the developers get away way too easily with blaming it on the customer, I guess. It’s undeniable that if the players would demand much more and vote with their wallet, things would change, but that’s only one side of that coin.
The other one is a developer getting lazy and not trying to push boundaries outside of those the business economists ask them to. There might be multiple reasons why this happened and although some players adress those things to Mike O’Brian it might as well be nobody in particular to blame.
The crux of the matter is a developer past its best. Ruining the WvW and not even trying to stop the bleeding, the amateurish attempt to create an e-sport out of a game not even remotely ready for it, both those things say a lot about a distinct lack of motivation behind the scenes. Things like that just don’t happen if the team behind it is passionate about what they do.
However, that’s something you’ll get if many of the original developers are no longer on board. The problem is: While they make money now, they will inevitably run into trouble in the long run unless they somehow manage to turn around. ArenaNet wouldn’t be the first nor the last studio to fall from grace this way.
That’s something I would hate to see.

The problem with the GW2 story is in my opinion this:
The whole march to battle Zhaitan has a strong start. We learn that the Risen are threatening the whole world and march against Lion´s Arch. Then things begin to go downhill rapidly. On a global scale, Zhaitan never accomplishes anything and is as dangerous to Tyria as Caudecus is for Jenna. His champions are lackluster and interchangeable. And the story narrative is really weak on top of that.
Big Monster – Mentor- Mentor killed – bigger Mentor everyone hates because the first mentor is always as good as the invention of the wheel – Alliance of unlikely candidates- traitors and allies turned into smaller monsters – Big monster killed.
Still that is kind of understandable. It is the first arch which is either a massive success like GW1, or a total bomb like GW2. Happens.
Then ls1 starts, and it is at least a novel concept, probably even for those who hated to have to fill their day with commanding pugs.
Megalomaniac that shows wisdom sometimes – Unlikely alliance of evil types – Plans thwarted – New plans- Lions Arch takes damage – Megalomanial dies while you ask yourself if she was probably right that she would be needed in the future.
Ls2 is sadly a poor rehash of the first story with the exception that you loose someone you don´t particulary care about because you barely knew her and that you hunt a guy you also barely know to find a guy that you always thought was a kind of circus director. I remember how one of the authors was sent out to freeze in the cold sarcasm of players worldwide because she promised that the story woudl be fresh and exciting. I personally was only excited that it came to an end rather soon.
And the third part with HoT, well I guess I don´t spoiler anyone when I say that the grade of novelty has not exactly risen to the highest level and kept me awoke at night when I played it. It had one shocking moment I sadly saw coming and one moment where the large majority of all the arm chair commanders in chief broke out in celebrations. Sadly, this last moment was Anet not even worth a video, just a simple text message.

Vayne.8563:

Comparing a single player game story to an MMO story though is probably not the best thing to do. I haven’t really found stories in MMOs generally to compare to games that focus on stories like single player RPGs. Those entire games are designed around stories. MMOs are designed around other things like progression.

The Guild Wars 2 story compares with the story of most, but not all, MMOs I’ve tried. The exception would be SWToR, which was created by a single player company known for their stories. But single player games in general are better at story. It’s the heart of most single player games.

Way better story ending with way crappier graphics.

Archdevil.1748:

It is not fun. A lot of people hate it like me. It does not give the same feeling as Core Tyria. A greater challenge they said. Better rewards they said. All I get is the same junk. I don’t have any incentive to go there. I am better off farming Silverwastes. It is more fun. And all the timer madness is broken and casual unfriendly!

A greater challenge it was – both in instances and open world.

Better rewards? Nope.
Lots of new unique armor skins? Nope.

So those two above combined means nobody wants to do the greater challenge content once they’ve beaten it a few times and feel comfortable with it.

There’s a pattern in how MMO players approach content.

First 1-2-3-4 times – because it’s cool, has awesome gameplay, gives insights into lore and has a story or information you want.

Next 5-6-7-8 times – because you want to maybe get good at it, master it, find all the ins and outs of said encounter.

Next 8-to a lot of times – to farm the associated reward.

The numbers aren’t true for everyone – some might have different thresholds than me but the point stands of these 3 phases existing -experiencing, mastering and grinding for rewards.

Since HoT rewards are so few, limited and niche – nobody is doing the third phase so 2 months after release not many players still find themselves in phases 1 or 2 – and thus aren’t doing the content.

Palador.2170:

As someone that strongly dislikes a lot of HoT, I’m not sure I can call it a failure. “Seriously flawed” would be a better way to put it, I think.

The two biggest problems, honestly, are that ANet seems hellbent on NOT learning from past mistakes, and that they don’t communicate with the players very well at all.

PAST MISTAKES
HoT seems to be full of design choices that ANet should have already known better than to do, due to past experiences. TT and the Invasion of Lion’s Arch showed them that they can run into trouble if they give players non-event reasons to gather in the area of a complex or hard event. Arah Story showed them that people don’t want to group or face roadblocks while doing the actual personal/living story. The open world events in Season 2 showed the problem with linking those to the story. Fractal Leaderboards (do I really need to explain this one?) The early days of TT and Tequatil showed the need for a way to get groups onto the same map for events, and how the Megaserver goes against that.

POOR COMMUNICATION
This one goes in both directions, with how they talk to us and how they listen to us. How they talk to us is why players were blindsided at the last minute by the 400 HP cost of the Elite Specs. How they listen is responsible for them not realizing how bad of an idea that was for a lot of people, who expected to gain/earn the spec and use it in the new areas.That’s not the only communication failure, just one of the most obvious.

Now, I know some people love HoT, and they ask if it was really flawed or if it’s just the other players that are the problem. To that, I can only say that if enough of the other players are complaining and not joining in on HoT stuff, then those that DO like it will sooner or later find they have a new problem. Players that dislike this expansion are less likely to support the game. Players that lose track of the personal/living story due to difficulty or roadblocks are less likely to care about the story in the future, and less likely to support the game. Players that don’t care about “grinding” rewards and currency will simply not do events even if they’re in the area. In short, the game as a whole is going to take a hit, both in playability and financial support.

Actually I never realized it but you hit that part spot on – back in GW1 each time I bought one of the new campaigns I ran it with a new class that came with that campaign – and that was a pretty good experience.

The fact that you can’t really do that in HoT on release must have been off putting to most people.

Not for me though since warrior elite spec was so meh I didn’t even want to touch it.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I’m not sure it is a failure at all. HoT added a lot of things that are pretty decent.

#1: Harder enemies. I’ve been wanting that for awhile.
#2: Elaborate maps and more involved maps. Always a good thing.
#3: A metroid style of progression where you gain the ability to explore new areas.
#4: The elite specializations are awesome (if a bit power-creepy), and I like playing as most of them.
#5: A large series of collections and achievements for completionists.
#6: Some pretty cool looking skins.
#7: Events that are actually fun to do.

So, I like the xpac, and from what I’ve heard it has sold really well, so I wonder what your standard of failure is.

All your points are really relative to each person’s point of view.

1.They’re harder but the margin is so low they might as well not be.

2.Elaborate – that’s one word to call it – a convoluted mess is another. If your map is so “elaborate” that in-game systems designed to keep people oriented(minimap) are no longer effective then I believe something is wrong.

3.Can’t speak for all players but I don’t like this – I like to have my exploration ungated so I can get it out of the way quickly and focus on other things.

4.They’re “awesome” I guess – I still don’t like berserker but apart from that the power creep is undeniably high – look at sPvP and how every class now runs its elite spec.

5.I guess if you’re into that.

6.A few arguably “cool” skins.

7.Possibly fun( haven’t done a lot of them) but also incredibly unrewarding ( I am assuming you’re talking about regular events and not the map metas).

The standard of failure I believe is player retention – yes it might ave sold well – but how long till people drop it?

Also to address this “metroidvania” thing a bit more – Yes I understand that some players like this and recently game developers have taken to it like it’s the best thing since sliced bread but my personal feelings about it aside there’s a problem with how it’s implemented – and that’s the fact it was added in to artificially increase the lifespan of the expansion.

If they had implemented it with an abundance of content – assume they had 10 maps and still did this metroidvania thing – I might have said -sure – ok – this is the direction they want to take their game in.

But implementing it with just 4 maps ( I don’t even think DS should count as its own map but hey why not) just screams out " we did it to cover the fact that we don’t have a lot of content".

VaLee.5102:

Vayne.8563:

Comparing a single player game story to an MMO story though is probably not the best thing to do. I haven’t really found stories in MMOs generally to compare to games that focus on stories like single player RPGs. Those entire games are designed around stories. MMOs are designed around other things like progression.

The Guild Wars 2 story compares with the story of most, but not all, MMOs I’ve tried. The exception would be SWToR, which was created by a single player company known for their stories. But single player games in general are better at story. It’s the heart of most single player games.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAIrj_Vqdfc

Way better story ending with way crappier graphics.

Crappier graphics, but not crappy for it’s time. The WoW cinematics are outrageously expensive. Very few MMOs can afford to produce stuff like that. The advantage of having a subscription game and more subscribers than anyone.

I agree, that’s a great way to tell a story. Star Wars ToR told a story through great cinematics too, but it was also the most expensive MMO ever produced.

There are great ways to tell a story and there are affordable great ways to tell a story. Not everyone has EA or Blizzard’s deep pockets. Companies all have to improvise.

One of the reasons Anet is doing what they’re doing it because there’s no real point in competing with EA or Blizzard in terms of the quality of cinematic you can afford to produce.

“Hot” was a success if it generated more profit than it cost. Whether we like it or not is irrelevant to it being a success. The issue arises with player retention if they attempt to sell us another expansion. I believe there would be far less pre-orders and hype for it.

For most of the points made in the video, I would agree with.

100% agree with the Video

Randulf.7614:

I’m not saying your opinion of it being a failure is invalid, I’m just not understanding your criteria. It did provide greater challenge – better ai, harder mobs, group events, raids – all specifically asked for by the community.

I cannot let this go uncommented.

There is no “the community” as if it were a person. Some very voicy players wanted what you have summed up. Whether they are a significant part of the whole player base or whether those now complaining that it’s too hard are representing a majority, is unknown. “I know a lot of…” is not helping either.

Some wanted raids, greater challenges, others didn’t. For better or worse ANet has decided to follow the route they went with HoT. It is a change in direction to pre-HoT, so I think the complaints can, by no means, come as a surprise.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I’m not sure it is a failure at all. HoT added a lot of things that are pretty decent.

#1: Harder enemies. I’ve been wanting that for awhile.
#2: Elaborate maps and more involved maps. Always a good thing.
#3: A metroid style of progression where you gain the ability to explore new areas.
#4: The elite specializations are awesome (if a bit power-creepy), and I like playing as most of them.
#5: A large series of collections and achievements for completionists.
#6: Some pretty cool looking skins.
#7: Events that are actually fun to do.

So, I like the xpac, and from what I’ve heard it has sold really well, so I wonder what your standard of failure is.

so you like doing the same thing over and over and over and over again without any kind of variation?

I’m sorry but i stopped reading when you said Silverwastes was more “fun” then the new maps. To me, and to most of the people i know, Silverwastes is the only stain on an otherwise great game. If you are suggesting that maps with far more content in them are somehow worse then the grindfest silverwastes is, then you’ve lost me completely. As far as the timers go, i don’t know how you live your life but if you are busy and don’t have much time, these things are actually a blessing, because you can plan to do one of the new map’s metas up front, for those of us that actually have a busy shedule, knowing exactly when to show up, and not waste time due to that, is actually really important.

And that’s the reality of people who don’t have that much time, they plan stuff. Stop pretending you are fighting for anything but your own selfish needs.

Oh and HoT did not fail by any stretch of the imagination, really…

Fox.3469:

I’m sorry but i stopped reading when you said Silverwastes was more “fun” then the new maps. To me, and to most of the people i know, Silverwastes is the only stain on an otherwise great game. If you are suggesting that maps with far more content in them are somehow worse then the grindfest silverwastes is, then you’ve lost me completely. As far as the timers go, i don’t know how you live your life but if you are busy and don’t have much time, these things are actually a blessing, because you can plan to do one of the new map’s metas up front, for those of us that actually have a busy shedule, knowing exactly when to show up, and not waste time due to that, is actually really important.

And that’s the reality of people who don’t have that much time, they plan stuff. Stop pretending you are fighting for anything but your own selfish needs.

Oh and HoT did not fail by any stretch of the imagination, really…

The complete opposite is true.

I lead a busy life. Most of the time I don’t really have that much time to spare and if so, then it will be evening hours.

With a design like SW I can be sure that one or another district will be in a stage where taxis are done and I can hop on the meta.

With the HoT maps, if you miss the start, that’s it for the evening (at least, if your evening has only 2 – 3 hours).

Apart from that:
SW – events, breach, then lanes
AB – events, then lanes
TD – events, then lanes
DS – lanes

Can you please tell me why you think the first is boring and the others are great? I fail to spot the difference, other than SW is a much smaller map. And more rewarding.

Well then I guess every MMO is and always has been failing since you can find similar rant videos on every MMO in existence.

TIL the MMO genre was never popular and has been failing perpetually.

Alicornus.7095:

While I agree with the rest of your post, you’re letting the developers get away way too easily with blaming it on the customer, I guess. It’s undeniable that if the players would demand much more and vote with their wallet, things would change, but that’s only one side of that coin.
The other one is a developer getting lazy and not trying to push boundaries outside of those the business economists ask them to. There might be multiple reasons why this happened and although some players adress those things to Mike O’Brian it might as well be nobody in particular to blame.
The crux of the matter is a developer past its best. Ruining the WvW and not even trying to stop the bleeding, the amateurish attempt to create an e-sport out of a game not even remotely ready for it, both those things say a lot about a distinct lack of motivation behind the scenes. Things like that just don’t happen if the team behind it is passionate about what they do.
However, that’s something you’ll get if many of the original developers are no longer on board. The problem is: While they make money now, they will inevitably run into trouble in the long run unless they somehow manage to turn around. ArenaNet wouldn’t be the first nor the last studio to fall from grace this way.
That’s something I would hate to see.

On the contrary, I agree, the developers in the end are to blame but in retrospective to all of that, the players had the biggest chance to tell developers what they wanted to see. When things were being announced or not being revealed yet, these forums were constantly bombarded with post that created a separation in the community. One group made statements like, “We want to see X in game”, or “Why is Y not happening or explained more clearly”, and then you would have other players who loved “X” and did not even stop to think about “Y”. In essence, those same players who are now dishearten by how let down this expansion is were giving Arenanet too much credit.

Players would defend the decisions of the game saying, “They are working hard, the content is great” or “X is fine and this is what we want, if you other players don’t like it then stop whining and go play something else”. Things like that is what also helped make the game what it is today. And voting with the wallet is probably speaking the loudest, but I’m not advocating that decision right off because simply saying something in these forums is enough to make the devs notice something. Just how like now these type of threads are constantly popping up each time about how disappointed players are with parts of the game.

Had players noticed the little content that was revealed for this “expansion” or some of the questionably decisions made by developers, then they could have voiced their opinion more loudly to where the developers would “maybe” notice them. So I cant really have much sympathy for players who finally realize this. Too many, yet a minority, of fans tried to say something about it before the release. But in the end, had it gone the opposite way, the developers still have the final say so. Which causes me to have moments where I have to stop and think, “who are they really making this game for. Us, or them?”

POOR COMMUNICATION
^^^ They actually talk a lot on Reddit even though they don’t give a crap about their official forums :P

For all the “It’s not a failure just because you don’t like it.” people here: It’s obvious that a word “failed” is used as a a general description for how HoT did, not that every player feels or should feel the same, so stop repeating same things over and over again.
How much truth it is in that, it’s probably the best to judge from how it was received in general, from various sources (forums, reviews, gaming sites etc…) You can even see in game population or if you’re in guild. I saw people logged for expansion and stopped logging in again after two or three weeks. Just like me pretty much.

I agree with OP and with the youtube review there for the most part. Yes, expansion had it’s moments and there were lot of things that were cool, but there are just too many things that were not cool and were disappointing. So do the math and what you get is that in general it’s a failure for certain people.

Look, if the game or dlc or movie is good, you can bet your kitten you will see that all over the internet and you will immediately notice that it’s well accepted in general. And expansion for one of the best MMrpgs shouldn’t be any different. But I don’t see it being accepted that well, do you? Which means that a lot of people were disappointed, which would pretty much mean it failed. Of course that doesn’t mean that no one likes it or that they shouldn’t. If you love it, that’s great, but accept it that many don’t share the same feeling. In my personal opinion it’s just not worth the price, simple as that. But at the end, I would be disappointed even if the price was half less, because I rather pay 50 bucks and have good expansion than pay 25 bucks and have crappy one.

This is for those that dislike the events on timers. I’m not trying to make an argument for or against at this point but get some insight as to why it specifically bothers you.

What is it about the timers that you do not like?
What is it that you cannot do but want to do?
Have you tried using the LFG to hop to an active map or bring people to yours?

Thnx a bunch for posting this.
I´ll be back when the next rushed 4 map “expansion” will be launched and I can get this one for free.
If there still is an Ahrrna Net next year.
In the mean time I´ll get my “action RPG” fix in Wildstar.

As a pretty casual player of GW2, I log on about 2-3 hours a day. I played HoT pretty hardcore for two weeks or so, and completed the story on my 3 favorite characters, and did a few Dragon’s Stand on each one. The other alts, I just ran through Hero Points to unlock their elite spec, and since then I’ve been doing core Tyria stuff instead.

I went back to farming silverwastes, Chest Farm + Vinewrath, and World Boss train.

The problem with HoT is that a 1hr+ Dragon Stand meta event, or any other HoT Meta Event doesn’t have the rewards to make it a fun “farmable” event. I can make a lot more gold by farming silverwastes and world bosses in that 1hr+.

If they would just not be afraid to up the rewards in those places, people would flock to them.

Uriel.6310:

On the contrary, I agree, the developers in the end are to blame but in retrospective to all of that, the players had the biggest chance to tell developers what they wanted to see. When things were being announced or not being revealed yet, these forums were constantly bombarded with post that created a separation in the community. One group made statements like, “We want to see X in game”, or “Why is Y not happening or explained more clearly”, and then you would have other players who loved “X” and did not even stop to think about “Y”. In essence, those same players who are now dishearten by how let down this expansion is were giving Arenanet too much credit.

Players would defend the decisions of the game saying, “They are working hard, the content is great” or “X is fine and this is what we want, if you other players don’t like it then stop whining and go play something else”. Things like that is what also helped make the game what it is today. And voting with the wallet is probably speaking the loudest, but I’m not advocating that decision right off because simply saying something in these forums is enough to make the devs notice something. Just how like now these type of threads are constantly popping up each time about how disappointed players are with parts of the game.

Had players noticed the little content that was revealed for this “expansion” or some of the questionably decisions made by developers, then they could have voiced their opinion more loudly to where the developers would “maybe” notice them. So I cant really have much sympathy for players who finally realize this. Too many, yet a minority, of fans tried to say something about it before the release. But in the end, had it gone the opposite way, the developers still have the final say so. Which causes me to have moments where I have to stop and think, “who are they really making this game for. Us, or them?”

I agree with you on that, thanks for the reply.

Collections could have been good, but unfortunately almost all of them quickly devolve into -go farm a few hundred to 1000 map currency. It is difficult to have a “side project” that doesn’t conflict with your main goal. Combine it with the need to schedule my life around the game of I want to play the chains, and the expansion lost the luster very quickly.

Ayrilana.1396:

This is for those that dislike the events on timers. I’m not trying to make an argument for or against at this point but get some insight as to why it specifically bothers you.

What is it about the timers that you do not like?
What is it that you cannot do but want to do?
Have you tried using the LFG to hop to an active map or bring people to yours?

Well even if I still have fun in those map, I find those timer bad for those reason.

1) They are way too long. A DS map is a huge investment in time. I consider myself an hardcore players so it’s not impossible to me and I did my fair share of DS map, but even for me doing a DS map during the week mean that I will pass a good portion of my gaming time in one map since it’s about 2 hours to complete. So I usually try to keep DS during the weekend only. I can’t imagine how casual players with just 1-2 hours would feel about doing some DS. Same is true of Verdant Brink and AB. The full maps are long to complete. IMO they should last more than 1 hour.

2) There is a concept in video game of point of exit. You should design point of exit in your game adapted to your target audience and let’s face it. Open World is for casual mostly. They are fun for hardcore as they farm them for reward, but they should be designed for casual. And for the new maps, there is also the entry point. Again, linked to the length of the timer. Most map have an entry and an exit point of 2 hours. Want to join a DS 1 hours after it started? Good luck. Either the map isn’t far enough to succeed or it’s probably full already. You have an entry point of roughly 30min when the maps start. Be there or good luck. So now, you need 2 hours for the map, but more 3 hours since you need to wait 1 hour before doing the content you wanted. SW did that very well. You can start the map at any moment. Hop on a map and taxi ppl in and voila you are good to go.

3) These map don’t adapt to the population of the map. You need to reach a threahold of coordination/number of players and that’s it. If you are under it, you failed. If you are over it, good for you, but you won’t have anything. SW allow you to speed the meta up the more coordinated/populated the map is. Dry Top allow you to get higher and higher in tier. VB is not really guilty of that, but the other 3 maps? AB and TD don’t even need ppl to bother with the events. It can help for AB with WP and for TD it’s so easy and fast that nobody care. You just need the amount you need at the meta and whatever for the remaining, it doesn’t matter. For DS you need a fix amount of coordination/population to make it to the end. You are in a good map? You gonna wait longer before the next map. You don’t have a good map? You gonna fail and wasted 2 hours.

4) Specifically for TD. The pre-events are so easy and fast that it offen take 1 hours to complete it and then you need to wait one more hour before the chak gerent.

In resume. They should adapt to the number of players either by time (better) or by tier (good if the timer isn’t longer than 1 hour). That way ppl can join when they want and the map will adapt to the number of players/coordination.

Ayrilana.1396:

This is for those that dislike the events on timers. I’m not trying to make an argument for or against at this point but get some insight as to why it specifically bothers you.

What is it about the timers that you do not like?
What is it that you cannot do but want to do?

Fair questions. (Omitted the last as it’s not specifically relevant to me and is not a function of timers as it would be to flowing populations like Silverwastes.)

I do like consistency for events that would otherwise not be available without it. While that put world bosses on farm, I know when and where I can find them if I need them. It wasn’t fun having to find them after Ascended gear started but Megaserver wasn’t in place, since they could spawn at random.

So it’s not such a horrible sin to do entire maps like that for HoT.

Where it becomes a problem is when the meta events block exploration and character advancement. Canopy exploration is only available 20 minutes of a two hour rotation. Less than a 17% availability. That’s pretty horrible for being respectful of a player’s time.

Trying to use the guild hall to get into Magus Falls, I swear I have a 50% chance to run into that stupid ball of light blocking me from getting into Tarir. My options at that point are to wait over 20 minutes for the event to end (in failure) or waypoint out, unless the character is fresh to the area, at which point …I switch characters because I’m already put off.

The hero challenge buried under Tarir? Bad, bad. Having to rely on the zerg to break in there isn’t a way to enjoy the game. But that’s also hitched to the timer.

Thaddeus.4891:

2) There is a concept in video game of point of exit. You should design point of exit in your game adapted to your target audience and let’s face it. Open World is for casual mostly. They are fun for hardcore as they farm them for reward, but they should be designed for casual. And for the new maps, there is also the entry point. Again, linked to the length of the timer. Most map have an entry and an exit point of 2 hours. Want to join a DS 1 hours after it started? Good luck. Either the map isn’t far enough to succeed or it’s probably full already. You have an entry point of roughly 30min when the maps start. Be there or good luck. So now, you need 2 hours for the map, but more 3 hours since you need to wait 1 hour before doing the content you wanted. SW did that very well. You can start the map at any moment. Hop on a map and taxi ppl in and voila you are good to go.

Yes and more yes.
I lapsed on calling it out, but exit points are vital to humane design. ANet’s urge to keep players on a map for 1-2 hours is brutal to those who don’t have time for it.

On top of the concept of exit points, there is also a time-to-meaningful-play ratio that needs to be satisfied for player retention. Fractal design is great for this now. Hop in, do one chunk get a reward, then decide to do another or move on.
Hours-long map metas don’t let you do that, punish you for taking a break, and don’t offer a meaningful play experience unless you sneak in at the right time to kill the boss or wait the entire time for an organized map to run the meta for an hour or two.

Vayne.8563:

Ghostwind.4380:

I watched his whole video. I think he was a bit too dramatic in some of his complaints, and his incredulity and exasperation was kind of annoying. However, he did actually give a lot of specifics in his critique, and I have to agree with most of it. Particularly about the story. Then again, I’m not sure what he was expecting for the story.

Anet has never been good at the story mechanics. It’s something I’ve always felt they really are lacking in. They don’t seem to really want to put any serious effort into it either. I can understand of course, creating a good, compelling story requires a lot of thought, story boarding, cut scene generation, and cost.

Still, when you see a scene like this from MA3 (nearly 4 years ago), with a different commander, you can really see what a compelling scene with the proper music, camera work, and story boarding can accomplish. Watching it still brings a tear to my eye…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6RHg-BCk0g

If only Anet would try a bit harder with story and learn from other game companies. I might be willing to overlook it’s other flaws.

Comparing a single player game story to an MMO story though is probably not the best thing to do. I haven’t really found stories in MMOs generally to compare to games that focus on stories like single player RPGs. Those entire games are designed around stories. MMOs are designed around other things like progression.

The Guild Wars 2 story compares with the story of most, but not all, MMOs I’ve tried. The exception would be SWToR, which was created by a single player company known for their stories. But single player games in general are better at story. It’s the heart of most single player games.

It’s funny I knew somebody would rush to the defense of Anet with the “don’t use a single player example” argument by linking that vid. Saying single player games solely focus on story while mmo’s only focus on progression is a bit of a falacy. They do both have progression. In fact, single player games generally have even more progression, it’s just usually localized to your machine. Yes, mmo’s are a totally different game design and the money spent on the story part is not going to be as heavy. But there are indeed mmo’s out there able to weave good story telling and mechanics into the design. For other mmo’s story telling is a focus, not an afterthought. You mentioned swtor as some kind of exception, it’s really not. Here’s another one, The Secret World…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gewzp9x_3rY

The point is (and the point of linking that vid), is that good story telling CAN rely on a big budget, but what’s more important is understanding what skills are involved in good story telling (story boarding, camera work, pacing, dialog, drawing out emotion, immersion, etc), as WELL as how your story mechanics work. It’s not just science, it’s also art. If you don’t know how to craft a good story and make it compelling then it’s just going to fall flat. Not only that, if you do it BADLY you will turn off your audience.

Here’s a perfect example of how to quickly turn off your audience: throughout the story in HoT, there were multiple times when I would enter a story checkpoint where a dialog scene was to occur. Depending on how I entered the scene, my character would sometimes be locked facing the WRONG direction. So there I am, looking the opposite direction, talking to nobody. Meanwhile the npc I’m supposed to being having this meaningful dialog with is ALSO facing the wrong way. So not only are they behind me, they are facing a spot I supposedly am supposed to be. Or sometimes, depending on entry, the person I am supposed to be talking to is not in the clip at all because of the entry and camera locking. Not only does this speak to poor quality and testing, it’s just plan sloppy. It’s a consequence of bolting on story aspects onto the existing game engine, instead of taking the time to craft a scene for that dialog that is compelling. The end result of this wonky design is that I am left asking the question “If Anet doesn’t really care about story, why should I?”.

GW2 does combat and environments extremely well in my opinion, it’s still an amazing game to me that I play nearly every day, but your argument that their story mechanics should get a pass “because they are an mmo” is wrong. They simply aren’t doing enough in that part of the game, at least compared to what they could be doing.

I agree. We are used to have bad or half decent story in MMO. It’s the norm and we live with it, but it’s not a blank check to do a bad story. Just like with Multiplayer FPS like CoD, it’s just a bit of laziness on the developper. Plenty of MMO did great story or at least it of good story and most of them have great lore. You probably don’t want to put a higher priority on story at the expense of the gameplay or content, but that’s not a reason to do a bad job at it either.