Guild Wars 2

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Archdevil.1748:

It is not fun. A lot of people hate it like me. It does not give the same feeling as Core Tyria. A greater challenge they said. Better rewards they said. All I get is the same junk. I don’t have any incentive to go there. I am better off farming Silverwastes. It is more fun. And all the timer madness is broken and casual unfriendly!

So let me get this straight:

• The game is a failure if you don’t like it.
• It’s a success if it’s more like the content that already exists.

For me, a boring expansion would be extending the old game to the new zone — if I want the old game, I can play that without spending any money. However, that said, I wouldn’t call that a failure, just not my cup of tea.

There is a reason for me to like and play GW2 for more than 3 years and played GW1 and bought all expacs except the core game. I love the game. I haven’t played another MMO that is so interesting, so casual friendly and enjoyable. I like core GW2 and want more of the same yes. I don`t want a totally new game with new stupid restrictive rules. I don`t want to pay 45 euro for and Alpha with so many bugs that noone can count. I want to spend 2 hours after work away from reality and kill stuff, world bosses champions. I don’t want to get home and realize – Oh it’s DS time or TD time. Think of all the loot there! (Greedy face) Oh wait, I get the same blues and greens like from all over the game. I run around the jungle with an army of other ppl spend a lot of time and at the end of the 2 hours and at the end of the Greater challenge I get rubish. This is not the direction I want for the game. Yes, I want more from the old things.

For me, the feeling of gritty-ness is gone…the semi-realistic dark feeling of something very very wrong in the game world.What do we have instead? The start of HoT we’re presented with “All of the armies we had are demolished, how will we face such sorrow and hardship!” , and all I’m thinking is “lol get rekt scrubs xD”.
I miss the desolate feeling of Ascalon, where it seemed all life has died, the plague infested districts of Caineng….I could go on about this for quite a long time, but my point is – it’s like the game is hollow now.I don’t feel any real weight in it.
The moment I try to get into it, I get reminded of the mastery points I have to earn in the most stupid gating ever made.
Story?Voice acting? All fails.I’m seriously considering going back to GW1 now…..

- I thought the story was fine but too short, especially the end, which was very abrupt
- 50% of the new maps are generally unusable (DS you have a few seconds every two hours to catch a good map, and TD is just avoided totally by everybody).
- Elite specs and the Rev were designed to be OP to encourage their use. I suppose that’s ok if you like playing the new specs and don’t mind investing in new gear for optimizing, but if you like your old builds you are left out in the cold
- Guild halls and scribing – dat gold sink, yikes
- WvW was completely destroyed by punishing small havoc guilds (see guild hall above), a terrible map, and horrible imbalance with the new specs. I had always considered WvW the endgame content of this game but now it’s just sad.
- Guild missions were a net negative; a minor amount of convenience with guild instances is offset by terrible bugs and reduced rewards.
- Developing the Raid was a complete waste of time considering how many are actually doing it.

I just don’t understand how they could come up with a fun and rewarding map like SW and then make the HoT maps like they are.

Fox.3469:

I’m sorry but i stopped reading when you said Silverwastes was more “fun” then the new maps. To me, and to most of the people i know, Silverwastes is the only stain on an otherwise great game. If you are suggesting that maps with far more content in them are somehow worse then the grindfest silverwastes is, then you’ve lost me completely. As far as the timers go, i don’t know how you live your life but if you are busy and don’t have much time, these things are actually a blessing, because you can plan to do one of the new map’s metas up front, for those of us that actually have a busy shedule, knowing exactly when to show up, and not waste time due to that, is actually really important.

And that’s the reality of people who don’t have that much time, they plan stuff. Stop pretending you are fighting for anything but your own selfish needs.

Oh and HoT did not fail by any stretch of the imagination, really…

Silverwastes is the best map for your 80 because :
1. When you get back home tired – SW CF is rather dull and relaxing activity.
2.You need that mats and gold to craft your ascended gear.
3.The Vinewrath meta is player driven and as such it has a really strong community feeling. A lot of players determined to defend the 4 forts, to defend the 3 lanes and kill the bosses.
4. Seeing all other greedy people chest farming is rather heartworming
Vinewrath is not on a timer. Players do it because they want to.
During the day I have to plan too much things in real life. Planning my game life is UNNATURAL!!!

Ayrilana.1396:

This is for those that dislike the events on timers. I’m not trying to make an argument for or against at this point but get some insight as to why it specifically bothers you.

What is it about the timers that you do not like?
What is it that you cannot do but want to do?
Have you tried using the LFG to hop to an active map or bring people to yours?

I have a very good answer for these questions.
I have 2-3 hours a night after work and may be 4-6 hours on weekend days. The timers on world bosses don’t bother me. If I want to kill a world boss I track the timers. Otherwise I am not forced to do world bosses. Free will Vinewrath in Silverwastes is a player driven meta event and is the final result of the collective Free will of a big group of players. Went to Dry Top several times. Timed map? No thank you. I don’t have free will. The game tells me what to do at certain times. Not my cup of coffee thank you again. Timing all the map events in all the expansion is just INSANE. I want to do on those maps whatever I want not whatever the game tells me to. NO free will
We are limited by too much things in real life. Being limited in the game you love and play for fun and relaxation is killing the joy of the game.
I want to explore and help progress meta events but not on a timer, but on my free will.
About the LFG – tried the DS meta. Watched the clocks. This is …. I don’t like it! The DS starts. First map 2-3 ppl around me. Transfer to another one. 2-3 ppl around me. Finally get to an organised map. Most players and all 4 commanders are German. Don’t understand anything in map chat. We start running and killing stuff. Yay! This is great! And then comes poison. Ppl try to revive me. I drop dead. Rez again. Drop dead immediatly. Poison lore says someone. Waypointed and for the first time in my life Allt+F4 the game!!! Never to come back to DS TD and AB. Now when I am in the mood (once in 2 weeks) go to VB, try to learn the event chains and GRIND some more xp to level up some stupid mastery and to be able some day to go to AB. TD and DS are such a long term goals as in may be 2-3 years if I still play the game

For a video claiming to not offer constructive criticism, there’s entirely too much constructive criticism in it. Hopefully some of the developers actually watch this.

Ghostwind.4380:

I watched his whole video. I think he was a bit too dramatic in some of his complaints, and his incredulity and exasperation was kind of annoying. However, he did actually give a lot of specifics in his critique, and I have to agree with most of it. Particularly about the story. Then again, I’m not sure what he was expecting for the story.

Anet has never been good at the story mechanics. It’s something I’ve always felt they really are lacking in. They don’t seem to really want to put any serious effort into it either. I can understand of course, creating a good, compelling story requires a lot of thought, story boarding, cut scene generation, and cost.

Still, when you see a scene like this from MA3 (nearly 4 years ago), with a different commander, you can really see what a compelling scene with the proper music, camera work, and story boarding can accomplish. Watching it still brings a tear to my eye…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6RHg-BCk0g

If only Anet would try a bit harder with story and learn from other game companies. I might be willing to overlook it’s other flaws.

I agree with what you are saying, when the Normandy turns up the hair on my arms stands up, just like it did the first time. But nit every company can afford, or do things as well story telling wise as Biowear.

Yeah I agree with the story part.

The whole Rata Novus journey is garbage, and it’s not the only one. Most of the research we did in LS2 and HoT is pointless against Mordremoth at all, it just gives you some random cliffhangers and give Taimi some showtime.

Ghostwind.4380:

Vayne.8563:

Ghostwind.4380:

I watched his whole video. I think he was a bit too dramatic in some of his complaints, and his incredulity and exasperation was kind of annoying. However, he did actually give a lot of specifics in his critique, and I have to agree with most of it. Particularly about the story. Then again, I’m not sure what he was expecting for the story.

Anet has never been good at the story mechanics. It’s something I’ve always felt they really are lacking in. They don’t seem to really want to put any serious effort into it either. I can understand of course, creating a good, compelling story requires a lot of thought, story boarding, cut scene generation, and cost.

Still, when you see a scene like this from MA3 (nearly 4 years ago), with a different commander, you can really see what a compelling scene with the proper music, camera work, and story boarding can accomplish. Watching it still brings a tear to my eye…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6RHg-BCk0g

If only Anet would try a bit harder with story and learn from other game companies. I might be willing to overlook it’s other flaws.

Comparing a single player game story to an MMO story though is probably not the best thing to do. I haven’t really found stories in MMOs generally to compare to games that focus on stories like single player RPGs. Those entire games are designed around stories. MMOs are designed around other things like progression.

The Guild Wars 2 story compares with the story of most, but not all, MMOs I’ve tried. The exception would be SWToR, which was created by a single player company known for their stories. But single player games in general are better at story. It’s the heart of most single player games.

It’s funny I knew somebody would rush to the defense of Anet with the “don’t use a single player example” argument by linking that vid. Saying single player games solely focus on story while mmo’s only focus on progression is a bit of a falacy. They do both have progression. In fact, single player games generally have even more progression, it’s just usually localized to your machine. Yes, mmo’s are a totally different game design and the money spent on the story part is not going to be as heavy. But there are indeed mmo’s out there able to weave good story telling and mechanics into the design. For other mmo’s story telling is a focus, not an afterthought. You mentioned swtor as some kind of exception, it’s really not. Here’s another one, The Secret World…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gewzp9x_3rY

The point is (and the point of linking that vid), is that good story telling CAN rely on a big budget, but what’s more important is understanding what skills are involved in good story telling (story boarding, camera work, pacing, dialog, drawing out emotion, immersion, etc), as WELL as how your story mechanics work. It’s not just science, it’s also art. If you don’t know how to craft a good story and make it compelling then it’s just going to fall flat. Not only that, if you do it BADLY you will turn off your audience.

Here’s a perfect example of how to quickly turn off your audience: throughout the story in HoT, there were multiple times when I would enter a story checkpoint where a dialog scene was to occur. Depending on how I entered the scene, my character would sometimes be locked facing the WRONG direction. So there I am, looking the opposite direction, talking to nobody. Meanwhile the npc I’m supposed to being having this meaningful dialog with is ALSO facing the wrong way. So not only are they behind me, they are facing a spot I supposedly am supposed to be. Or sometimes, depending on entry, the person I am supposed to be talking to is not in the clip at all because of the entry and camera locking. Not only does this speak to poor quality and testing, it’s just plan sloppy. It’s a consequence of bolting on story aspects onto the existing game engine, instead of taking the time to craft a scene for that dialog that is compelling. The end result of this wonky design is that I am left asking the question “If Anet doesn’t really care about story, why should I?”.

GW2 does combat and environments extremely well in my opinion, it’s still an amazing game to me that I play nearly every day, but your argument that their story mechanics should get a pass “because they are an mmo” is wrong. They simply aren’t doing enough in that part of the game, at least compared to what they could be doing.

I’m comparing MMOs to other MMOs and single player games, generally to single player games. As a general rule, MMOs don’t have great stories and there’s a reason for it. Because everything is takes so much time and is so hard to implement. It’s much easy to balance things in a single player game.

Take Skyrim. Good story. But more, everything is geared around you as one guy. You can be the head of every guild all at the same time, making you feel more heroic. That stuff can’t really be done in an MMO because a million people are all the hero. The entire process for writing MMOs is stories is very different.

You can say it doesn’t matter, but that doesn’t make it not matter. It’s not giving someone a free pass to recognize that MMOs have a plethora of things to deal with that no single player game has. That’s fact.

It’s also fact that MMOs cost more to produce as a whole. It’s more expensive to create and maintain an MMO. So the budget can’t go for voice actors and cinematics, unless you have very VERY deep pockets. SWToR did it and become the most expensive MMO ever made. After which they had to fire a third of their staff.

Yes, MMOs aren’t single player games, they have different problems and different business sensibilities.

That’s a fact.

Bin reading you all.. & lots of good valid points.. But seriously try not to understand why Why HoT failed.

HoT failed becuz of 1 bad decision after the other was made during it’s course.

It’s not about cinematics, voice actors or something like that. It’s about quality of the story/lore developers are creating. And that quality is low, compared to the original GW2.

For example, could anyone give me any name of a new, HoT NPC? Describe his/her character?
In my opinion, there are no new characters in HoT, only new races, which will be forgotten in the next expansion since there’s no one to represent them.

Manthas.6234:

It’s not about cinematics, voice actors or something like that. It’s about quality of the story/lore developers are creating. And that quality is low, compared to the original GW2.

For example, could anyone give me any name of a new, HoT NPC? Describe his/her character?
In my opinion, there are no new characters in HoT, only new races, which will be forgotten in the next expansion since there’s no one to represent them.

Ibli. I love him. Sorry but I do.

Vayne.8563:

Manthas.6234:

It’s not about cinematics, voice actors or something like that. It’s about quality of the story/lore developers are creating. And that quality is low, compared to the original GW2.

For example, could anyone give me any name of a new, HoT NPC? Describe his/her character?
In my opinion, there are no new characters in HoT, only new races, which will be forgotten in the next expansion since there’s no one to represent them.

Ibli. I love him. Sorry but I do.

Googled him. If that’s the best HoT story character, then it just describes how low quality is.
I kind of remember him myself for being one of the first NPC of some importance. After a mission (wiki says he’s in two missions) that guy is dropped.

Manthas.6234:

Vayne.8563:

Manthas.6234:

It’s not about cinematics, voice actors or something like that. It’s about quality of the story/lore developers are creating. And that quality is low, compared to the original GW2.

For example, could anyone give me any name of a new, HoT NPC? Describe his/her character?
In my opinion, there are no new characters in HoT, only new races, which will be forgotten in the next expansion since there’s no one to represent them.

Ibli. I love him. Sorry but I do.

Googled him. If that’s the best HoT story character, then it just describes how low quality is.
I kind of remember him myself for being one of the first NPC of some importance. After a mission (wiki says he’s in two missions) that guy is dropped.

Nothing wrong with the character. He’s cartoony, he has a great voice and I like him. You may not remember him, but it doesn’t make him a bad character. There was a bit of writing that I really didn’t like from HoT, but aside from that one incident, the writing was fine. And the delivery was better than anything we’ve seen so far.

Vayne.8563:

Manthas.6234:

Vayne.8563:

Manthas.6234:

It’s not about cinematics, voice actors or something like that. It’s about quality of the story/lore developers are creating. And that quality is low, compared to the original GW2.

For example, could anyone give me any name of a new, HoT NPC? Describe his/her character?
In my opinion, there are no new characters in HoT, only new races, which will be forgotten in the next expansion since there’s no one to represent them.

Ibli. I love him. Sorry but I do.

Googled him. If that’s the best HoT story character, then it just describes how low quality is.
I kind of remember him myself for being one of the first NPC of some importance. After a mission (wiki says he’s in two missions) that guy is dropped.

Nothing wrong with the character. He’s cartoony, he has a great voice and I like him. You may not remember him, but it doesn’t make him a bad character. There was a bit of writing that I really didn’t like from HoT, but aside from that one incident, the writing was fine. And the delivery was better than anything we’ve seen so far.

If I can’t remember a character, it kind of makes him a bad character. Look how you describe him “he’s cartoony, he has a great voice and I like him”. That is all. Anet didn’t even bother to make his character model stand out. If I present you with 3 random Itzel and one of them would be Ibli, you couldn’t even point at him. Lazy developer?

Manthas.6234:

Vayne.8563:

Manthas.6234:

Vayne.8563:

Manthas.6234:

It’s not about cinematics, voice actors or something like that. It’s about quality of the story/lore developers are creating. And that quality is low, compared to the original GW2.

For example, could anyone give me any name of a new, HoT NPC? Describe his/her character?
In my opinion, there are no new characters in HoT, only new races, which will be forgotten in the next expansion since there’s no one to represent them.

Ibli. I love him. Sorry but I do.

Googled him. If that’s the best HoT story character, then it just describes how low quality is.
I kind of remember him myself for being one of the first NPC of some importance. After a mission (wiki says he’s in two missions) that guy is dropped.

Nothing wrong with the character. He’s cartoony, he has a great voice and I like him. You may not remember him, but it doesn’t make him a bad character. There was a bit of writing that I really didn’t like from HoT, but aside from that one incident, the writing was fine. And the delivery was better than anything we’ve seen so far.

If I can’t remember a character, it kind of makes him a bad character. Look how you describe him “he’s cartoony, he has a great voice and I like him”. That is all. Anet didn’t even bother to make his character model stand out. If I present you with 3 random Itzel and one of them would be Ibli, you couldn’t even point at him. Lazy developer?

You not remembering a character doesn’t make him a bad character. He makes him a bad character to you. There’s nothing wrong with Ibli. You don’t believe he stood out, which is fine. I do. That’s fine too.

It’s an opinion. You’re entitled to yours, I’m entitled to mine.

The reason why stories in these games are as they are is because in single player games you have a lot more time to work on them, and they probably don’t change as much. Single player games don’t evolve as they go.

MMOs need more and faster, often with teams of people changing all the time. It’s not so easy to get everything in by that deadline all the time. But the deadline for a game that’s not out yet is very different from the deadline of a game that is constantly needed you for the next thing.

There are a lot of reasons why single player games have a better chance at a better story than MMOs do. The proof is in the fact that it happens so often. It’s not like single player game writers are great and MMO writers suck. That’s not it at all.

It’s a different vehicle with different focus.

If you’re building a racing car you build for speed. If you’re building a family car you build for safety. It changes the design.

Get over it. No one really care if you like the game or not.

Weather the majority of players like it, time will tell, it’s easy to see from the financial report.

IndigoSundown.5419:

The thread title is misleading. The video is a rant. The video poster acknowledges it as a rant. Rants are not analyses. An analysis includes pros and cons. Maybe the video poster actually offered both sides later in the vid. I sat through a fair bit of his anti-story rant and that was all I could stomach.

The video does include “pros”. He specifically mentions how he thinks Revenant is great, enjoys some of the elite specialisations, has been happy with raids, thinks Verdant Brink is a good map, enjoys gliding and I know he mentioned more.

Maybe you should hold back on your own “analysis” of a video until you’ve actually watched the whole thing so you can keep from posting false things. Your post was quite hypocritical.

The guy on youtube is right. We can just hope that things are further optimized.

Vayne.8563:

Ghostwind.4380:

Vayne.8563:

Ghostwind.4380:

I watched his whole video. I think he was a bit too dramatic in some of his complaints, and his incredulity and exasperation was kind of annoying. However, he did actually give a lot of specifics in his critique, and I have to agree with most of it. Particularly about the story. Then again, I’m not sure what he was expecting for the story.

Anet has never been good at the story mechanics. It’s something I’ve always felt they really are lacking in. They don’t seem to really want to put any serious effort into it either. I can understand of course, creating a good, compelling story requires a lot of thought, story boarding, cut scene generation, and cost.

Still, when you see a scene like this from MA3 (nearly 4 years ago), with a different commander, you can really see what a compelling scene with the proper music, camera work, and story boarding can accomplish. Watching it still brings a tear to my eye…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6RHg-BCk0g

If only Anet would try a bit harder with story and learn from other game companies. I might be willing to overlook it’s other flaws.

Comparing a single player game story to an MMO story though is probably not the best thing to do. I haven’t really found stories in MMOs generally to compare to games that focus on stories like single player RPGs. Those entire games are designed around stories. MMOs are designed around other things like progression.

The Guild Wars 2 story compares with the story of most, but not all, MMOs I’ve tried. The exception would be SWToR, which was created by a single player company known for their stories. But single player games in general are better at story. It’s the heart of most single player games.

It’s funny I knew somebody would rush to the defense of Anet with the “don’t use a single player example” argument by linking that vid. Saying single player games solely focus on story while mmo’s only focus on progression is a bit of a falacy. They do both have progression. In fact, single player games generally have even more progression, it’s just usually localized to your machine. Yes, mmo’s are a totally different game design and the money spent on the story part is not going to be as heavy. But there are indeed mmo’s out there able to weave good story telling and mechanics into the design. For other mmo’s story telling is a focus, not an afterthought. You mentioned swtor as some kind of exception, it’s really not. Here’s another one, The Secret World…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gewzp9x_3rY

The point is (and the point of linking that vid), is that good story telling CAN rely on a big budget, but what’s more important is understanding what skills are involved in good story telling (story boarding, camera work, pacing, dialog, drawing out emotion, immersion, etc), as WELL as how your story mechanics work. It’s not just science, it’s also art. If you don’t know how to craft a good story and make it compelling then it’s just going to fall flat. Not only that, if you do it BADLY you will turn off your audience.

Here’s a perfect example of how to quickly turn off your audience: throughout the story in HoT, there were multiple times when I would enter a story checkpoint where a dialog scene was to occur. Depending on how I entered the scene, my character would sometimes be locked facing the WRONG direction. So there I am, looking the opposite direction, talking to nobody. Meanwhile the npc I’m supposed to being having this meaningful dialog with is ALSO facing the wrong way. So not only are they behind me, they are facing a spot I supposedly am supposed to be. Or sometimes, depending on entry, the person I am supposed to be talking to is not in the clip at all because of the entry and camera locking. Not only does this speak to poor quality and testing, it’s just plan sloppy. It’s a consequence of bolting on story aspects onto the existing game engine, instead of taking the time to craft a scene for that dialog that is compelling. The end result of this wonky design is that I am left asking the question “If Anet doesn’t really care about story, why should I?”.

GW2 does combat and environments extremely well in my opinion, it’s still an amazing game to me that I play nearly every day, but your argument that their story mechanics should get a pass “because they are an mmo” is wrong. They simply aren’t doing enough in that part of the game, at least compared to what they could be doing.

I’m comparing MMOs to other MMOs and single player games, generally to single player games. As a general rule, MMOs don’t have great stories and there’s a reason for it. Because everything is takes so much time and is so hard to implement. It’s much easy to balance things in a single player game.

Take Skyrim. Good story. But more, everything is geared around you as one guy. You can be the head of every guild all at the same time, making you feel more heroic. That stuff can’t really be done in an MMO because a million people are all the hero. The entire process for writing MMOs is stories is very different.

You can say it doesn’t matter, but that doesn’t make it not matter. It’s not giving someone a free pass to recognize that MMOs have a plethora of things to deal with that no single player game has. That’s fact.

It’s also fact that MMOs cost more to produce as a whole. It’s more expensive to create and maintain an MMO. So the budget can’t go for voice actors and cinematics, unless you have very VERY deep pockets. SWToR did it and become the most expensive MMO ever made. After which they had to fire a third of their staff.

Yes, MMOs aren’t single player games, they have different problems and different business sensibilities.

That’s a fact.

You totally ignored my mention of The Secret World (on purpose?), which was just one example I used to show compelling story can be applied to mmo’s – if story is made a focus. So that is an mmo to mmo comparison like you say you are trying to use. TSW is not a big budget game like swtor. Sure, even it’s story elements are not to the level of a single player game with a strong story focus like nearly every bioware game. But it’s story crafting and cut scenes do use in game character assets and are done fairly well. It’s not about quantity after all, but quality.

Bottom line, compelling story can be done in an mmo if it’s made a focus, with the right skill set, and the right people involved. As games like TSW show, it is NOT totally about budget.

That’s a fact.

MaximillianVonSchatten.6278:

I just don’t understand how they could come up with a fun and rewarding map like SW and then make the HoT maps like they are.

I think it really shows that Verdant brink has had more testing time and fine tuning than the rest of the expansion. I mean it set’s the bar so high when the expansion starts that the rest of the expansion just fall flat as it unfolds.

The artists have done a great job with everything they do as usual, besides some of the skill design on the new elite professions that was recycled.

Then the negative:
Raids weren’t ready (even if released a month late, 95% of the players are not interested because, well, it’s not interesting content)
WvW wasn’t ready (they didn’t implement stuff from the CDI, everyone is leaving, servers are empty)
PvP wasn’t ready (class balance is a mess, build variety is gone, and Stronghold is not the GvG they promised and it has only 1 map…)
Guild Halls weren’t ready (Scribing is so expensive everyone is like “kitten that”, Arenas are too small for GvG and have no scoreboard)
Some elite specs were not ready (Tempest was rushed so bad the dev didn’t even know how to play it)
Story is rushed and ends abruptly, as if, “well now it’s gotta end because the expansion is getting released next month”
Masteries are a joke, no way I’m wasting time grinding those
Everything turned into an account-bound grind, if you saved gold like I did then it’s all useless in the expansion. Collection being the biggest grind in the history of gaming.
Legendaries weren’t ready either.
Old Tyria didn’t get the facelift it needed to be interesting again.
WvW this, WvW that, WvW this, WvW that, etc…

But yeah, what’s there in some part is beautifully done, the problem being, it’s just not finished.

Ghostwind.4380:

Vayne.8563:

Ghostwind.4380:

Vayne.8563:

Ghostwind.4380:

I watched his whole video. I think he was a bit too dramatic in some of his complaints, and his incredulity and exasperation was kind of annoying. However, he did actually give a lot of specifics in his critique, and I have to agree with most of it. Particularly about the story. Then again, I’m not sure what he was expecting for the story.

Anet has never been good at the story mechanics. It’s something I’ve always felt they really are lacking in. They don’t seem to really want to put any serious effort into it either. I can understand of course, creating a good, compelling story requires a lot of thought, story boarding, cut scene generation, and cost.

Still, when you see a scene like this from MA3 (nearly 4 years ago), with a different commander, you can really see what a compelling scene with the proper music, camera work, and story boarding can accomplish. Watching it still brings a tear to my eye…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6RHg-BCk0g

If only Anet would try a bit harder with story and learn from other game companies. I might be willing to overlook it’s other flaws.

Comparing a single player game story to an MMO story though is probably not the best thing to do. I haven’t really found stories in MMOs generally to compare to games that focus on stories like single player RPGs. Those entire games are designed around stories. MMOs are designed around other things like progression.

The Guild Wars 2 story compares with the story of most, but not all, MMOs I’ve tried. The exception would be SWToR, which was created by a single player company known for their stories. But single player games in general are better at story. It’s the heart of most single player games.

It’s funny I knew somebody would rush to the defense of Anet with the “don’t use a single player example” argument by linking that vid. Saying single player games solely focus on story while mmo’s only focus on progression is a bit of a falacy. They do both have progression. In fact, single player games generally have even more progression, it’s just usually localized to your machine. Yes, mmo’s are a totally different game design and the money spent on the story part is not going to be as heavy. But there are indeed mmo’s out there able to weave good story telling and mechanics into the design. For other mmo’s story telling is a focus, not an afterthought. You mentioned swtor as some kind of exception, it’s really not. Here’s another one, The Secret World…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gewzp9x_3rY

The point is (and the point of linking that vid), is that good story telling CAN rely on a big budget, but what’s more important is understanding what skills are involved in good story telling (story boarding, camera work, pacing, dialog, drawing out emotion, immersion, etc), as WELL as how your story mechanics work. It’s not just science, it’s also art. If you don’t know how to craft a good story and make it compelling then it’s just going to fall flat. Not only that, if you do it BADLY you will turn off your audience.

Here’s a perfect example of how to quickly turn off your audience: throughout the story in HoT, there were multiple times when I would enter a story checkpoint where a dialog scene was to occur. Depending on how I entered the scene, my character would sometimes be locked facing the WRONG direction. So there I am, looking the opposite direction, talking to nobody. Meanwhile the npc I’m supposed to being having this meaningful dialog with is ALSO facing the wrong way. So not only are they behind me, they are facing a spot I supposedly am supposed to be. Or sometimes, depending on entry, the person I am supposed to be talking to is not in the clip at all because of the entry and camera locking. Not only does this speak to poor quality and testing, it’s just plan sloppy. It’s a consequence of bolting on story aspects onto the existing game engine, instead of taking the time to craft a scene for that dialog that is compelling. The end result of this wonky design is that I am left asking the question “If Anet doesn’t really care about story, why should I?”.

GW2 does combat and environments extremely well in my opinion, it’s still an amazing game to me that I play nearly every day, but your argument that their story mechanics should get a pass “because they are an mmo” is wrong. They simply aren’t doing enough in that part of the game, at least compared to what they could be doing.

I’m comparing MMOs to other MMOs and single player games, generally to single player games. As a general rule, MMOs don’t have great stories and there’s a reason for it. Because everything is takes so much time and is so hard to implement. It’s much easy to balance things in a single player game.

Take Skyrim. Good story. But more, everything is geared around you as one guy. You can be the head of every guild all at the same time, making you feel more heroic. That stuff can’t really be done in an MMO because a million people are all the hero. The entire process for writing MMOs is stories is very different.

You can say it doesn’t matter, but that doesn’t make it not matter. It’s not giving someone a free pass to recognize that MMOs have a plethora of things to deal with that no single player game has. That’s fact.

It’s also fact that MMOs cost more to produce as a whole. It’s more expensive to create and maintain an MMO. So the budget can’t go for voice actors and cinematics, unless you have very VERY deep pockets. SWToR did it and become the most expensive MMO ever made. After which they had to fire a third of their staff.

Yes, MMOs aren’t single player games, they have different problems and different business sensibilities.

That’s a fact.

You totally ignored my mention of The Secret World (on purpose?), which was just one example I used to show compelling story can be applied to mmo’s – if story is made a focus. So that is an mmo to mmo comparison like you say you are trying to use. TSW is not a big budget game like swtor. Sure, even it’s story elements are not to the level of a single player game with a strong story focus like nearly every bioware game. But it’s story crafting and cut scenes do use in game character assets and are done fairly well. It’s not about quantity after all, but quality.

Bottom line, compelling story can be done in an mmo if it’s made a focus, with the right skill set, and the right people involved. As games like TSW show, it is NOT totally about budget.

That’s a fact.

The secret world has a decent story. It’s not a great story, but it is also more centered on story. Unfortunately because it’s centered on story, other aspects of the game fail to capture masses and the game is pretty much up for sale. The CEO of the company walked. The staff was cut in half and now they’re looking for a buyer.

I didn’t ignore your mention of it. You ignored my mention that there are very few MMOs that can afford to focus on story because it’s very expensive to focus on story. TSW focused on story and failed. Failed as in it’s not one of the TOP MMOs, it did not meet expectations, and it’s failed financially.

People say Heart of Thorns failed and I say we have to wait six months to a year to see if that happened.

So let’s recap. Games choose a focus. The focus of this game is obviously the dynamic event system and for some silly reason, esports, which I don’t think is a great move, but maybe it makes them money…I have no idea how. I don’t see that as one of the strengths of this game.

So Anet doesn’t focus on story. The story in this game is a reason to do things. A motivation for world events to move forward. That’s how it was designed. It’s not the focus of the game.

TSW did focus on story, but because everyone has limited resources, they focused on story and failed.

Now we’ve discussed TSW. It’s an MMO who tried to focus on story, didn’t go over well, because they had limited resources and spent them wrong.

I would have loved the story in TSW personally but I ended up being annoyed by the presentation because even though they focused on the story, they saved money by not voicing the main character, so every time I went up to an NPC, it felt like they were talking at me and I wasn’t there at all.

Completely killed the story for me. They should have voiced the main actor, because I don’t really want to listen to a bunch of monologues when I’m questing.

I do not agree with title HoT fail. We do not know this. Only Anet will know this. But video even if was describe as rant I feel was very well thought review with both good and bad part of HoT. I agree with many thing person in video say. I do not remember if he comment about how many mob are all over HoT. This is one thing I hate about HoT. So many mob every where go always attack hard to enjoy explore map. It seem almost never get a break to stop and enjoy where are in map because always fight mob every where.

And I believe more people will be drawn to this “HoT fail” mindset due to these negative feedbacks in which I hope won’t result to such.

I hope the devs are reading feedbacks here and perhaps release a response to the community accordingly asap to better the game

Lets look at the numbers of replies and views of this thread.
123 replies and 6300 views.
How many players does GW2 have?
On the basis of 123 replies HOT is a failure.
Seriously?
A basic course in statistics would be a good start for some of the replies to this thread.

Ghostwind.4380:

You totally ignored my mention of The Secret World (on purpose?), which was just one example I used to show compelling story can be applied to mmo’s – if story is made a focus. So that is an mmo to mmo comparison like you say you are trying to use. TSW is not a big budget game like swtor. Sure, even it’s story elements are not to the level of a single player game with a strong story focus like nearly every bioware game. But it’s story crafting and cut scenes do use in game character assets and are done fairly well. It’s not about quantity after all, but quality.

Bottom line, compelling story can be done in an mmo if it’s made a focus, with the right skill set, and the right people involved. As games like TSW show, it is NOT totally about budget.

That’s a fact.

I would also add FFXIV:ARR (especially the expansion) to it. While not all cutscenes are voiced they are really good. Camera movement, character movements and the sound fit well together.

Remains to be seen whether HoT has failed. I simultaneously hope that it has and that it has not. I don’t want to see more of this kind of content design but I do want robust development to continue.

Ashen.2907:

Remains to be seen whether HoT has failed. I simultaneously hope that it has and that it has not. I don’t want to see more of this kind of content design but I do want robust development to continue.

Honestly I’m just not even sure anymore what I think. I loved original HoT difficulty but they seem to keep nerfing stuff back and making it easier and easier and I’m currently taking a break because of it. I’m not even sure if GW2 is the right game for me right now as I enjoy a difficulty curve in my games were I’m gradually taught new tactics and ways to fight. The open world of GW doesn’t do that and so its more like a stair step with open world, dungeons, fractals, raids. Add in the pace they balance things and it’s just….idk. I want to like GW2 but I’m just going to have to wait to see where they take HoT.

Vayne.8563:

You not remembering a character doesn’t make him a bad character. He makes him a bad character to you. There’s nothing wrong with Ibli. You don’t believe he stood out, which is fine. I do. That’s fine too.

It’s an opinion. You’re entitled to yours, I’m entitled to mine.

The reason why stories in these games are as they are is because in single player games you have a lot more time to work on them, and they probably don’t change as much. Single player games don’t evolve as they go.

MMOs need more and faster, often with teams of people changing all the time. It’s not so easy to get everything in by that deadline all the time. But the deadline for a game that’s not out yet is very different from the deadline of a game that is constantly needed you for the next thing.

There are a lot of reasons why single player games have a better chance at a better story than MMOs do. The proof is in the fact that it happens so often. It’s not like single player game writers are great and MMO writers suck. That’s not it at all.

It’s a different vehicle with different focus.

If you’re building a racing car you build for speed. If you’re building a family car you build for safety. It changes the design.

Different opinions is not a basis to end the discussion, it’s a basis to start one. When we present our opinions we give arguments. Admit it, “I like it” is not much of an argument. You could just as well try to convince me, that a tree is a good character, since it makes nice sound when you chop it and you love that tree.

And why do you try to convince as that story wasn’t Anets focus on HoT? Well, maybe not the main one, but they still put quite a lot of resources into it. PC has 6 different voices, many missions have different approaches, Braham shaves his head. That’s an effort in my book. Hell, I can’t say many bad things about story and lore in VB. Beginning was good and if all HoT was as good as VB, I wouldn’t be talking here. But ever since I leave this map, it feels like they dropped the ball and all the promise beginning gave me starts to fade out. Compared to a slow start, everything else seems rushed. It’s like they reached Rivendell in the middle of the movie and destroyed the ring at the end of it.
I don’t know the reasons why, maybe they didn’t have enough time and they had to rush the story to meet the deadline. Frankly, I don’t care why and i shouldn’t. They took my money for a rushed product and that’s a fail.

It’s not healthy to defend a product for a sake of defence. I know you love GW2 and you want it succeed. I want that too. But when developers looses direction or even starts to insult their players, community has to be vocal about it.

mauried.5608:

Lets look at the numbers of replies and views of this thread.
123 replies and 6300 views.
How many players does GW2 have?
On the basis of 123 replies HOT is a failure.
Seriously?
A basic course in statistics would be a good start for some of the replies to this thread.

Get used to it, someone once said it failed and he talked for a “lot of people”, when asked he directed me to a topic with less than 2000 replies.
The usual reasoning is “my guild + everyone I know + the people my guildmates know = everyone”

Raziel.4216:

mauried.5608:

Lets look at the numbers of replies and views of this thread.
123 replies and 6300 views.
How many players does GW2 have?
On the basis of 123 replies HOT is a failure.
Seriously?
A basic course in statistics would be a good start for some of the replies to this thread.

Get used to it, someone once said it failed and he talked for a “lot of people”, when asked he directed me to a topic with less than 2000 replies.
The usual reasoning is “my guild + everyone I know + the people my guildmates know = everyone”

Should we wait for Anet to step up and show numbers proving that HoT failed?

Manthas.6234:

Raziel.4216:

mauried.5608:

Lets look at the numbers of replies and views of this thread.
123 replies and 6300 views.
How many players does GW2 have?
On the basis of 123 replies HOT is a failure.
Seriously?
A basic course in statistics would be a good start for some of the replies to this thread.

Get used to it, someone once said it failed and he talked for a “lot of people”, when asked he directed me to a topic with less than 2000 replies.
The usual reasoning is “my guild + everyone I know + the people my guildmates know = everyone”

Should we wait for Anet to step up and show numbers proving that HoT failed?

Real, objective and verifiable evidence is always available after a game’s release.
Stocks change, they fire/hire more people, they make moves that show a declining population (like merging server) or such, you can access real evidence eventually.
And it may show that the game didn’t fail.
This “analysis” proves nothing, it’s simply a rant.

TheLastNobody.8319:

Ashen.2907:

Remains to be seen whether HoT has failed. I simultaneously hope that it has and that it has not. I don’t want to see more of this kind of content design but I do want robust development to continue.

Honestly I’m just not even sure anymore what I think. I loved original HoT difficulty but they seem to keep nerfing stuff back and making it easier and easier and I’m currently taking a break because of it. I’m not even sure if GW2 is the right game for me right now as I enjoy a difficulty curve in my games were I’m gradually taught new tactics and ways to fight. The open world of GW doesn’t do that and so its more like a stair step with open world, dungeons, fractals, raids. Add in the pace they balance things and it’s just….idk. I want to like GW2 but I’m just going to have to wait to see where they take HoT.

This learning curve thing does not work anyway, sorry. An expansion is, from the point that you learn something which you will always be able to use in future expansions and that will always be build on, doomed to fail. Because new content will replace old content in terms of must have. It´s basically the same with raids. What is the have to go place today is the sinkhole of tomorrow.

To clarify what I mean, let´s take a look at warfare:
A chain armor is very useful against simple stabbing weapons like forks if you don´t raise your arms. It stays useful against more advanced bludgeoning weapons. It is so so against an english lonbow. It is totally useless against a gun. When it reaches the gun stage, people will discard it.

And for the original question, I don´t know if HoT failed economy wise. I feel that it is not the shinning success Anet probably hoped it to be. Really good numbers would have probably been shouted from the rooftops already. I know for sure that is feels rushed and is filled with stuff that is either a time sink like adventures or gated like some HP from meta events.

Raziel.4216:

Manthas.6234:

Raziel.4216:

mauried.5608:

Lets look at the numbers of replies and views of this thread.
123 replies and 6300 views.
How many players does GW2 have?
On the basis of 123 replies HOT is a failure.
Seriously?
A basic course in statistics would be a good start for some of the replies to this thread.

Get used to it, someone once said it failed and he talked for a “lot of people”, when asked he directed me to a topic with less than 2000 replies.
The usual reasoning is “my guild + everyone I know + the people my guildmates know = everyone”

Should we wait for Anet to step up and show numbers proving that HoT failed?

Real, objective and verifiable evidence is always available after a game’s release.
Stocks change, they fire/hire more people, they make moves that show a declining population (like merging server) or such, you can access real evidence eventually.
And it may show that the game didn’t fail.
This “analysis” proves nothing, it’s simply a rant.

And forums full of toxic community shows nothing? We should wait and do nothing, do not discuss, because real numbers hasn’t shown up?
Who do you think we are? Stockbrokers? We are players. And that “my guild + everyone I know + the people my guildmates know = everyone” in players eyes actually is everyone. People do not play with numbers, they play with their guild, people they know and the people their guildmates know. People give feedback, positive or negative, based on their experience. Should you wait for numbers while your experience is negative?

Manthas.6234:

Raziel.4216:

Manthas.6234:

Raziel.4216:

mauried.5608:

Lets look at the numbers of replies and views of this thread.
123 replies and 6300 views.
How many players does GW2 have?
On the basis of 123 replies HOT is a failure.
Seriously?
A basic course in statistics would be a good start for some of the replies to this thread.

Get used to it, someone once said it failed and he talked for a “lot of people”, when asked he directed me to a topic with less than 2000 replies.
The usual reasoning is “my guild + everyone I know + the people my guildmates know = everyone”

Should we wait for Anet to step up and show numbers proving that HoT failed?

Real, objective and verifiable evidence is always available after a game’s release.
Stocks change, they fire/hire more people, they make moves that show a declining population (like merging server) or such, you can access real evidence eventually.
And it may show that the game didn’t fail.
This “analysis” proves nothing, it’s simply a rant.

And forums full of toxic community shows nothing? We should wait and do nothing, do not discuss, because real numbers hasn’t shown up?
Who do you think we are? Stockbrokers? We are players. And that “my guild + everyone I know + the people my guildmates know = everyone” in players eyes actually is everyone. People do not play with numbers, they play with their guild, people they know and the people their guildmates know. People give feedback, positive or negative, based on their experience. Should you wait for numbers while your experience is negative?

When are forums not full of toxic topics?
Ascended came out = filled with “game over gg arenanet ignored manifesto” topics.
LS1 came out = filled with “game will die because of temporal content, going to back to wow” topics.
LS2 came out = filled with “200 gems? game’s dead”
Fractals…
Stronghold….
You name it.
Reddit has more constructive criticism and the comunity can choose to ignore pointless topics by downvoting’em to hell.

There’s a difference between “I don’t like this” and “this product failed”. The second requires evidence to be valid.

Raziel.4216:

Manthas.6234:

Raziel.4216:

Manthas.6234:

Raziel.4216:

mauried.5608:

Lets look at the numbers of replies and views of this thread.
123 replies and 6300 views.
How many players does GW2 have?
On the basis of 123 replies HOT is a failure.
Seriously?
A basic course in statistics would be a good start for some of the replies to this thread.

Get used to it, someone once said it failed and he talked for a “lot of people”, when asked he directed me to a topic with less than 2000 replies.
The usual reasoning is “my guild + everyone I know + the people my guildmates know = everyone”

Should we wait for Anet to step up and show numbers proving that HoT failed?

Real, objective and verifiable evidence is always available after a game’s release.
Stocks change, they fire/hire more people, they make moves that show a declining population (like merging server) or such, you can access real evidence eventually.
And it may show that the game didn’t fail.
This “analysis” proves nothing, it’s simply a rant.

And forums full of toxic community shows nothing? We should wait and do nothing, do not discuss, because real numbers hasn’t shown up?
Who do you think we are? Stockbrokers? We are players. And that “my guild + everyone I know + the people my guildmates know = everyone” in players eyes actually is everyone. People do not play with numbers, they play with their guild, people they know and the people their guildmates know. People give feedback, positive or negative, based on their experience. Should you wait for numbers while your experience is negative?

When are forums not full of toxic topics?
Ascended came out = filled with “game over gg arenanet ignored manifesto” topics.
LS1 came out = filled with “game will die because of temporal content, going to back to wow” topics.
LS2 came out = filled with “200 gems? game’s dead”
Fractals…
Stronghold….
You name it.
Reddit has more constructive criticism and the comunity can choose to ignore pointless topics by downvoting’em to hell.

There’s a difference between “I don’t like this” and “this product failed”. The second requires evidence to be valid.

That’s true, only difference is, all that hate used to wash away in a few weeks.
Have you been to Reddit lately? All that “contructive critisim” has been turned to jokes about the state of the game. Some of those are really good actually.

Saying that game has failed or dead is pointless, no denying in that. But if that post brings points, which are faulty or could be improved, you shouldn’t ignore that. Pick your raisins out of the pie.

Manthas.6234:

That’s true, only difference is, all that hate used to wash away in a few weeks.
Have you been to Reddit lately? All that “contructive critisim” has been turned to jokes about the state of the game. Some of those are really good actually.

Saying that game has failed or dead is pointless, no denying in that. But if that post brings points, which are faulty or could be improved, you shouldn’t ignore that. Pick your raisins out of the pie.

Those were updates that came out every 2 weeks, this is a major release, ofc discussions will last a lot more.
I’m not saying you can’t “Pick your raisins out of the pie.” my original reply was directed @ a post that was referring to the lack of statistical evidence required for these “game’s dead” topics.

Raziel.4216:

Manthas.6234:

That’s true, only difference is, all that hate used to wash away in a few weeks.
Have you been to Reddit lately? All that “contructive critisim” has been turned to jokes about the state of the game. Some of those are really good actually.

Saying that game has failed or dead is pointless, no denying in that. But if that post brings points, which are faulty or could be improved, you shouldn’t ignore that. Pick your raisins out of the pie.

Those were updates that came out every 2 weeks, this is a major release, ofc discussions will last a lot more.
I’m not saying you can’t “Pick your raisins out of the pie.” my original reply was directed @ a post that was referring to the lack of statistical evidence required for these “game’s dead” topics.

On the other hand, once evidence is presented, there’s no point in discussing the state of the game, since it is, well, dead.
Those “game’s dead” are just a flashy headlines, nothing more. As long as they bring valid points and starts discussion, I have no problem with them.

Archdevil.1748:

Ayrilana.1396:

This is for those that dislike the events on timers. I’m not trying to make an argument for or against at this point but get some insight as to why it specifically bothers you.

What is it about the timers that you do not like?
What is it that you cannot do but want to do?
Have you tried using the LFG to hop to an active map or bring people to yours?

I have a very good answer for these questions.
I have 2-3 hours a night after work and may be 4-6 hours on weekend days. The timers on world bosses don’t bother me. If I want to kill a world boss I track the timers. Otherwise I am not forced to do world bosses. Free will Vinewrath in Silverwastes is a player driven meta event and is the final result of the collective Free will of a big group of players. Went to Dry Top several times. Timed map? No thank you. I don’t have free will. The game tells me what to do at certain times. Not my cup of coffee thank you again. Timing all the map events in all the expansion is just INSANE. I want to do on those maps whatever I want not whatever the game tells me to. NO free will
We are limited by too much things in real life. Being limited in the game you love and play for fun and relaxation is killing the joy of the game.
I want to explore and help progress meta events but not on a timer, but on my free will.
About the LFG – tried the DS meta. Watched the clocks. This is …. I don’t like it! The DS starts. First map 2-3 ppl around me. Transfer to another one. 2-3 ppl around me. Finally get to an organised map. Most players and all 4 commanders are German. Don’t understand anything in map chat. We start running and killing stuff. Yay! This is great! And then comes poison. Ppl try to revive me. I drop dead. Rez again. Drop dead immediatly. Poison lore says someone. Waypointed and for the first time in my life Allt+F4 the game!!! Never to come back to DS TD and AB. Now when I am in the mood (once in 2 weeks) go to VB, try to learn the event chains and GRIND some more xp to level up some stupid mastery and to be able some day to go to AB. TD and DS are such a long term goals as in may be 2-3 years if I still play the game

You cannot be serious… please tell me you are joking

Gaaroth.2567:

Archdevil.1748:

Ayrilana.1396:

This is for those that dislike the events on timers. I’m not trying to make an argument for or against at this point but get some insight as to why it specifically bothers you.

What is it about the timers that you do not like?
What is it that you cannot do but want to do?
Have you tried using the LFG to hop to an active map or bring people to yours?

I have a very good answer for these questions.
I have 2-3 hours a night after work and may be 4-6 hours on weekend days. The timers on world bosses don’t bother me. If I want to kill a world boss I track the timers. Otherwise I am not forced to do world bosses. Free will Vinewrath in Silverwastes is a player driven meta event and is the final result of the collective Free will of a big group of players. Went to Dry Top several times. Timed map? No thank you. I don’t have free will. The game tells me what to do at certain times. Not my cup of coffee thank you again. Timing all the map events in all the expansion is just INSANE. I want to do on those maps whatever I want not whatever the game tells me to. NO free will
We are limited by too much things in real life. Being limited in the game you love and play for fun and relaxation is killing the joy of the game.
I want to explore and help progress meta events but not on a timer, but on my free will.
About the LFG – tried the DS meta. Watched the clocks. This is …. I don’t like it! The DS starts. First map 2-3 ppl around me. Transfer to another one. 2-3 ppl around me. Finally get to an organised map. Most players and all 4 commanders are German. Don’t understand anything in map chat. We start running and killing stuff. Yay! This is great! And then comes poison. Ppl try to revive me. I drop dead. Rez again. Drop dead immediatly. Poison lore says someone. Waypointed and for the first time in my life Allt+F4 the game!!! Never to come back to DS TD and AB. Now when I am in the mood (once in 2 weeks) go to VB, try to learn the event chains and GRIND some more xp to level up some stupid mastery and to be able some day to go to AB. TD and DS are such a long term goals as in may be 2-3 years if I still play the game

You cannot be serious… please tell me you are joking

No, I am not joking. Which part is not serius according to you?

Raziel.4216:

Manthas.6234:

Raziel.4216:

mauried.5608:

Lets look at the numbers of replies and views of this thread.
123 replies and 6300 views.
How many players does GW2 have?
On the basis of 123 replies HOT is a failure.
Seriously?
A basic course in statistics would be a good start for some of the replies to this thread.

Get used to it, someone once said it failed and he talked for a “lot of people”, when asked he directed me to a topic with less than 2000 replies.
The usual reasoning is “my guild + everyone I know + the people my guildmates know = everyone”

Should we wait for Anet to step up and show numbers proving that HoT failed?

Real, objective and verifiable evidence is always available after a game’s release.
Stocks change, they fire/hire more people, they make moves that show a declining population (like merging server) or such, you can access real evidence eventually.
And it may show that the game didn’t fail.
This “analysis” proves nothing, it’s simply a rant.

I never said it failed for the whole community. There are ppl that like it for some reason. Personally for me it is a huge fail. In order to make an hour and more rant means you have played the game enough and have analised the weaknesses of the expac. It is a rant, yes. One that is very well done. He points what is wrong with every aspect. So besides a rant it has a great deal of analisys involved.
About the evidence – there are so many topics here and on Reddit what is wrong with different aspects of the expac and they are popping more and more.
And one last thing – I never said the game is dead. Anet failed to delivere the content properly.

Manthas.6234:

Vayne.8563:

You not remembering a character doesn’t make him a bad character. He makes him a bad character to you. There’s nothing wrong with Ibli. You don’t believe he stood out, which is fine. I do. That’s fine too.

It’s an opinion. You’re entitled to yours, I’m entitled to mine.

The reason why stories in these games are as they are is because in single player games you have a lot more time to work on them, and they probably don’t change as much. Single player games don’t evolve as they go.

MMOs need more and faster, often with teams of people changing all the time. It’s not so easy to get everything in by that deadline all the time. But the deadline for a game that’s not out yet is very different from the deadline of a game that is constantly needed you for the next thing.

There are a lot of reasons why single player games have a better chance at a better story than MMOs do. The proof is in the fact that it happens so often. It’s not like single player game writers are great and MMO writers suck. That’s not it at all.

It’s a different vehicle with different focus.

If you’re building a racing car you build for speed. If you’re building a family car you build for safety. It changes the design.

Different opinions is not a basis to end the discussion, it’s a basis to start one. When we present our opinions we give arguments. Admit it, “I like it” is not much of an argument. You could just as well try to convince me, that a tree is a good character, since it makes nice sound when you chop it and you love that tree.

And why do you try to convince as that story wasn’t Anets focus on HoT? Well, maybe not the main one, but they still put quite a lot of resources into it. PC has 6 different voices, many missions have different approaches, Braham shaves his head. That’s an effort in my book. Hell, I can’t say many bad things about story and lore in VB. Beginning was good and if all HoT was as good as VB, I wouldn’t be talking here. But ever since I leave this map, it feels like they dropped the ball and all the promise beginning gave me starts to fade out. Compared to a slow start, everything else seems rushed. It’s like they reached Rivendell in the middle of the movie and destroyed the ring at the end of it.
I don’t know the reasons why, maybe they didn’t have enough time and they had to rush the story to meet the deadline. Frankly, I don’t care why and i shouldn’t. They took my money for a rushed product and that’s a fail.

It’s not healthy to defend a product for a sake of defence. I know you love GW2 and you want it succeed. I want that too. But when developers looses direction or even starts to insult their players, community has to be vocal about it.

What you’re saying is not relevant to the conversation. Try not to bring the fan boy into the conversation because that IS the end of the conversation. It’s disrespectful. It’s wrong because I DID like that character.

You’ve never watched a movie and liked a character? Without playing the story again I can’t analyze it to tell you what made me like it. But yes, it is the end of the conversation from that point of view. I like something you don’t. I don’t like it because I’m a fan boy. I’m not lying about liking it. I like it because I found the character entertaining. I liked he was the son of the village elder. I liked the way the voice actor played him. Yes, I liked the character.

Your attempt to dismiss me as a fan boy because I like it really does end this conversation. I’ve never talked to some about a movie or book where they said they liked a charcter and I said they didn’t and thought they were a fan boy.

In any event, there are enough characters in the main story without adding more characters anyway. The success of a piece of fiction doesn’t automatically mean adding new characters you remember. Star Trek when a long time with crew members and a lot of unmemorable characters in each episode.

This is a different situation from Factions where the story started all over. So judging the story based on new characters you remember is a complete red herring anyway. Pretty sure most people remember Braham and Kasmeer.

Anyway, I’m tired of people trying to denigrade my opinion because they think I’m a fan boy, or a white knight. You guys don’t really know anything about me.

Archdevil.1748:

Raziel.4216:

Manthas.6234:

Raziel.4216:

mauried.5608:

Lets look at the numbers of replies and views of this thread.
123 replies and 6300 views.
How many players does GW2 have?
On the basis of 123 replies HOT is a failure.
Seriously?
A basic course in statistics would be a good start for some of the replies to this thread.

Get used to it, someone once said it failed and he talked for a “lot of people”, when asked he directed me to a topic with less than 2000 replies.
The usual reasoning is “my guild + everyone I know + the people my guildmates know = everyone”

Should we wait for Anet to step up and show numbers proving that HoT failed?

Real, objective and verifiable evidence is always available after a game’s release.
Stocks change, they fire/hire more people, they make moves that show a declining population (like merging server) or such, you can access real evidence eventually.
And it may show that the game didn’t fail.
This “analysis” proves nothing, it’s simply a rant.

I never said it failed for the whole community. There are ppl that like it for some reason. Personally for me it is a huge fail. In order to make an hour and more rant means you have played the game enough and have analised the weaknesses of the expac. It is a rant, yes. One that is very well done. He points what is wrong with every aspect. So besides a rant it has a great deal of analisys involved.
About the evidence – there are so many topics here and on Reddit what is wrong with different aspects of the expac and they are popping more and more.
And one last thing – I never said the game is dead. Anet failed to delivere the content properly.

The word failed really doesn’t act like that. Failed is a state of not succeeding. It may have failed to hold your interest, but that’s a very different thing from saying something has failed.

When people use the word failed, they’re usually talking about something that is a statement of fact. The new burglar alarm failed to keep the house from being broken into. The virus checker failed to protect the system. He failed to score the final touchdown. That’s what the word means.

By placing that word in the title of your post, you pretty much interfere with anything else you want to say, because some people will say the game hasn’t failed or we won’t know if it has failed for some time.

That’s the problem with using sensationlist headlines. It competely detracts from the message you’re trying to get out there.

Vayne.8563:

What you’re saying is not relevant to the conversation. Try not to bring the fan boy into the conversation because that IS the end of the conversation. It’s disrespectful. It’s wrong because I DID like that character.

You’ve never watched a movie and liked a character? Without playing the story again I can’t analyze it to tell you what made me like it. But yes, it is the end of the conversation from that point of view. I like something you don’t. I don’t like it because I’m a fan boy. I’m not lying about liking it. I like it because I found the character entertaining. I liked he was the son of the village elder. I liked the way the voice actor played him. Yes, I liked the character.

Your attempt to dismiss me as a fan boy because I like it really does end this conversation. I’ve never talked to some about a movie or book where they said they liked a charcter and I said they didn’t and thought they were a fan boy.

In any event, there are enough characters in the main story without adding more characters anyway. The success of a piece of fiction doesn’t automatically mean adding new characters you remember. Star Trek when a long time with crew members and a lot of unmemorable characters in each episode.

This is a different situation from Factions where the story started all over. So judging the story based on new characters you remember is a complete red herring anyway. Pretty sure most people remember Braham and Kasmeer.

Anyway, I’m tired of people trying to denigrade my opinion because they think I’m a fan boy, or a white knight. You guys don’t really know anything about me.

Denigrating any opinion based on the persons character is wrong and faulty, I would never do that, at least intentionally.
However, I can not let “I like it” pass as an argument. It’s an opinion, conclusion in other words, but not an argument. As an argument it will be refuted.
When I present my opinion, I let people know why I think that way or another. Well, in your case, you may really be in love (at its true form) with the game. And yes, sometimes it can not be explained why people love one thing or another. And while I respect your absolute right to love things, some people may not share that feeling and you should understand them as well.

On other points about no need for new characters, I agree. Even more, I felt that they should have just stick to improving existing races. Was Exalted really needed? That’s probably my original problem which led to the question: did they add anything meaningful to the lore with HoT?

Manthas.6234:

Vayne.8563:

What you’re saying is not relevant to the conversation. Try not to bring the fan boy into the conversation because that IS the end of the conversation. It’s disrespectful. It’s wrong because I DID like that character.

You’ve never watched a movie and liked a character? Without playing the story again I can’t analyze it to tell you what made me like it. But yes, it is the end of the conversation from that point of view. I like something you don’t. I don’t like it because I’m a fan boy. I’m not lying about liking it. I like it because I found the character entertaining. I liked he was the son of the village elder. I liked the way the voice actor played him. Yes, I liked the character.

Your attempt to dismiss me as a fan boy because I like it really does end this conversation. I’ve never talked to some about a movie or book where they said they liked a charcter and I said they didn’t and thought they were a fan boy.

In any event, there are enough characters in the main story without adding more characters anyway. The success of a piece of fiction doesn’t automatically mean adding new characters you remember. Star Trek when a long time with crew members and a lot of unmemorable characters in each episode.

This is a different situation from Factions where the story started all over. So judging the story based on new characters you remember is a complete red herring anyway. Pretty sure most people remember Braham and Kasmeer.

Anyway, I’m tired of people trying to denigrade my opinion because they think I’m a fan boy, or a white knight. You guys don’t really know anything about me.

Denigrating any opinion based on the persons character is wrong and faulty, I would never do that, at least intentionally.
However, I can not let “I like it” pass as an argument. It’s an opinion, conclusion in other words, but not an argument. As an argument it will be refuted.
When I present my opinion, I let people know why I think that way or another. Well, in your case, you may really be in love (at its true form) with the game. And yes, sometimes it can not be explained why people love one thing or another. And while I respect your absolute right to love things, some people may not share that feeling and you should understand them as well.

On other points about no need for new characters, I agree. Even more, I felt that they should have just stick to improving existing races. Was Exalted really needed? That’s probably my original problem which led to the question: did they add anything meaningful to the lore with HoT?

Whether a single character is liikeable or memory is nothing more than an opinion. It’s like eating cheddar cheese. Either you like the cheese, or you don’t like the cheese. It really is that simple.

Not everyone is going to painstakingly analyze everything they like, nor is it reasonable to expect people to. There are reasons to like all sorts of things. Trying to demand an explanation of why someone likes something really isn’t at all reasonable, whether you intend to let it pass or not.

I…like…the… character. That’s it. I’m not sure why this is an issue for you.

Vayne.8563:

Whether a single character is liikeable or memory is nothing more than an opinion. It’s like eating cheddar cheese. Either you like the cheese, or you don’t like the cheese. It really is that simple.

Not everyone is going to painstakingly analyze everything they like, nor is it reasonable to expect people to. There are reasons to like all sorts of things. Trying to demand an explanation of why someone likes something really isn’t at all reasonable, whether you intend to let it pass or not.

I…like…the… character. That’s it. I’m not sure why this is an issue for you.

Because opinion without arguments holds no value. It gives nothing to the developer. It’s the same thing like “HoT failed”. Why? How? Whom? How should I fix it?

Now, imagine developer reading your comment. Fine, he likes it. Now how should I please him even more?

Manthas.6234:

Vayne.8563:

Whether a single character is liikeable or memory is nothing more than an opinion. It’s like eating cheddar cheese. Either you like the cheese, or you don’t like the cheese. It really is that simple.

Not everyone is going to painstakingly analyze everything they like, nor is it reasonable to expect people to. There are reasons to like all sorts of things. Trying to demand an explanation of why someone likes something really isn’t at all reasonable, whether you intend to let it pass or not.

I…like…the… character. That’s it. I’m not sure why this is an issue for you.

Because opinion without arguments holds no value. It gives nothing to the developer. It’s the same thing like “HoT failed”. Why? How? Whom? How should I fix it?

Now, imagine developer reading your comment. Fine, he likes it. Now how should I please him even more?

Nope, opinion without arguments hold plenty of value. You may believe otherwise and that’s okay. Most people don’t know why they like specific things, but they still do. However, you asked someone to name a character that they liked and I did. That’s ALL that was required. Now you’re raising the bar by demanding I tell you why I liked the character.

This simply isn’t reasonable.

Vayne.8563:

Manthas.6234:

Vayne.8563:

Whether a single character is liikeable or memory is nothing more than an opinion. It’s like eating cheddar cheese. Either you like the cheese, or you don’t like the cheese. It really is that simple.

Not everyone is going to painstakingly analyze everything they like, nor is it reasonable to expect people to. There are reasons to like all sorts of things. Trying to demand an explanation of why someone likes something really isn’t at all reasonable, whether you intend to let it pass or not.

I…like…the… character. That’s it. I’m not sure why this is an issue for you.

Because opinion without arguments holds no value. It gives nothing to the developer. It’s the same thing like “HoT failed”. Why? How? Whom? How should I fix it?

Now, imagine developer reading your comment. Fine, he likes it. Now how should I please him even more?

Nope, opinion without arguments hold plenty of value. You may believe otherwise and that’s okay. Most people don’t know why they like specific things, but they still do. However, you asked someone to name a character that they liked and I did. That’s ALL that was required. Now you’re raising the bar by demanding I tell you why I liked the character.

This simply isn’t reasonable.

Well, actually I asked to name a character AND describe his character. I knew there may be a kitten who would look for a name in a wiki or something. I always take insurance when I’m in a discussion

Vayne – he has a point – everything that people like/dislike can be broken down to quantifiable bits of why they have a positive or negative view regarding said thing.

Have a look here : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoteny
That right there explains why humans have certain responses towards certain features – which are quantifiable.

What I’m trying to get at is this – you liked the character – that’s fine – your opinion is your own.
Manthas asked you to identify those features that you find yourself attracted to – he asked you to objectively break down your idea of “I like X” and point out what features X has that make you like it or not.

You mentioned in a post something along the lines of “you either like the cheese or you don’t” – and while that is true – there are always real, objective quantifiable reasons for you reacting positively or negatively to said cheese (or any stimuli).

Now you may not realize what the reasons for your “liking” of said character might be or you might be unable to quantify and verbalize them- and that’s fine – but simply refusing the question because “it has no basis” is wrong.

All biological organisms react based on input – you can’t just like something without there being an objective reason or reasons for that.

I also don’t feel he is “raising the bar” – it’s a next question in a logical flow.
What do you like – why do you like it?

Best anaysis indeed.
I think the main problem and source of frustration is that Gw2 hot, is not a bas game, it’s juste a really disapointing and poorly executed game.
First of all, we didn’t have HOT on the release date, we had a portion of HOT: fractals were unbalanced, crashes were frequent, the elite spec system required 400 points.
So we had to wait, patch after patch, week after week. Fractals became playable only mid december… WvW is deserted.
The ratio of ingame cosmetic content/gemstore content is close to insulting.

I was angy because i appreciated what the game could have been, if some really stupid decisions were avoided. But know, we have this.
Lol 3 month in and WvW is not complete yet (apparently there is going to be a revamp in the next months, but most of the WvW community has already left the game for something else).

Right now i don’t really care anymore. I log in to get my dayli chest month is a while (in case i want to replay some day), and then log out.

This could have been the start of a massive reference in the MMO genre. We would’ve had expension after expension. But i don’t think that after this a 100% of veterent players would come back.

For my part i kinda moved on. This didn’t feel like a good time anymore