Guild Wars 2

So I’ve been thinking about this for a while. What if the gods are actually the dragons. The Gods are actually just spirits who can manifest themselves in the real world and every X amount of years these spirits (unable to stop it) will return to where their dragon bodies are (where they slumber) and awaken and start destroying everything, unable to stop it?

I mean the exodus of the gods and them leaving us alone and shortly there after the dragons start causing trouble. There is 6 gods and 6 dragons. The gods seem to be silent in this dire time.

What is it is like black and white, good and evil?

Well, the exodus actually occurs something like 1000 years before the dragons awaken. It should also be noted that the dragons regularly rise, destroy, and slumber, whereas the human gods came to Tyria with the humans in tow from another place entirely.

I’ll come on and try and spare you the torrent heading your way. Search this forum and you will find close to a dozen posts like this. Please refer to the replies there as to why this just….isn’t the case.

There’ve been plenty of threads about this line of thought. Even thought the first posts were quite reluctant to tie the gods and the dragons. The state of affairs is that even though we don’t know how’re they related. There’s a relation there.
Balthazar – Primordious
Melandru – Mordramoth
Dwayna – Jormag
Lyssa – Kralkatorrik
Grenth – Zhaitan
Kormir – Chtulhu

I too would like to know more about this, but I think is part of the core story of the game and more information would be released as the time passes.
Even though Konig des Todes would disagree with me, I advise you to go and look Wooden Potatoes’ video about the gods and the dragon aspects on youtube.

Edusd.7893:

I’ll come on and try and spare you the torrent heading your way. Search this forum and you will find close to a dozen posts like this. Please refer to the replies there as to why this just….isn’t the case.

Quoted. For. The Bloody. Truth.

At the same time about half dozen people, including myself, will be spared of having to explain again just why it is impossible.

And please, if you want to avoid further confusion and misinformation, prepare a large canister of salt as snack when watching WoodenPotatoes’ lore videos.

There has probably been over two dozen threads on this. A quick search of “6 god dragon” gave me four of them.

Short answer: The Six Gods are NOT related to the Elder Dragons.

1. The Elder Dragons predate the Six Gods’ existence on Tyria by tens of thousands of years – if not more. It’s like saying the Reapers were made by the Protheans in Mass Effect.
2. The Six Gods had physical bodies that were very clearly not draconic. Malchor saw the Six Gods in the flesh and crafted the statues which now stand in their cathedrals.
3. The Six Gods left in year 0, arrived at time still unknown but (supposedly) post-ED hibernation. There’d be 1,078 years of neither being active on the world.
4. Zhaitan and Grenth are outright stated in the game to be of opposing forces – rivals, even. Zhaitan is similarly said to be different than the other gods.
5. We see two gods in the flesh – Abaddon and Kormir. Neither are dragons, neither are spirits.

Links that go more in detail on this:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/7-Elder-Dragons/first#content
(OP deleted his post, and it didn’t delete the thread, for some reason – the person was suspecting that each ED had their own god, and that Menzies (or was it Dhuum) would have one too)
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Theorycraft-Elder-Dragons-and-Gods/first#content
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/My-Theory-on-the-Gods/first (not originally of the topic but devulged into it too)

My personal favorite: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/The-six-gods-are-NOT-ancient-dragons/first#content

Ludovicus.7980:

The state of affairs is that even though we don’t know how’re they related. There’s a relation there.
Balthazar – Primordious
Melandru – Mordramoth
Dwayna – Jormag
Lyssa – Kralkatorrik
Grenth – Zhaitan
Kormir – Chtulhu

I too would like to know more about this, but I think is part of the core story of the game and more information would be released as the time passes.
Even though Konig des Todes would disagree with me, I advise you to go and look Wooden Potatoes’ video about the gods and the dragon aspects on youtube.

And where’s the connection between the Deep Sea Dragon, and the goddess of Truth, Order, and Spirit?

Keep in mind, Kormir does not have domain over water. Abaddon did, but Kormir doesn’t – that domain went to Lyssa.

And how the hell do Jormag and Dwayna relate? Ice and Air/Healing/Life have NOTHING in common. I’ve seen folks compare blizzard/freezing winds to Dwayna’s winds, but Dwayna’s is soothing air.

There’s similarly nothing to really tie Lyssa and Kralkatorrik together, other than Lyssa’s ties to mesmerism which has ties to chaos magic, which seems to be what Kralkatorrik focuses on (though one can easily simply say “lightning, fire, and rock” aka “elements” instead).

It is a FACT that Kormir has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in relation to ANY Elder Dragon. People try to make a connection, but lets face it. There isn’t one, other than the fact that the Six Gods drawed on Zhaitan’s power to strengthen the Bloodstone. They didn’t even know Zhaitan was under Arah. We don’t even have evidence to know that the Six Gods knew of the Elder Dragons, or at least that the Six Gods knew they still lived or were going to become a threat.

And I would hardly use WP’s videos as aid for evidence.

Edit: Sorry if the end of the post seemed hostile. It just gets tiresome after a while, seeing this and people trying to make connections where there are none.

Just realize, while you are watching WoodenPotatoes, that some of the stuff he states isn’t lore, but is instead his own personal theory that he ties into the lore. I would just ask that before dive bombing directly into being one of his die hard followers, that you read other sources (not the wiki, but perhaps the links within the wiki that take you to direct sources) and diversify where you get your information from.

As to your idea. This has been shut down a great many times, and most people have completely shut down in their interest of explaining why just because of how often this subject comes up. The first thing that points towards this being wrong is the personal story. In one of the stories you are actually able to summon an Avatar of Grenth (which most people would consider Zhaitan to be in this equation). You learn from the avatar of the god that Grenth is actually still alive and that he is opposed to Zhaitan’s actions, by having the players kill one of Grenth’s acolytes that was brought back from the dead. On top of this, I’m going to give a little bit of a spoiler, in the end you kill Zhaitan. And when he dies, nothing happens, he just plummets to his death and the story ends. We learned in Guild Wars Nightfall that this just isn’t the case for the gods. You see when a god’s physical form is destroyed the magic that makes up the god threatens to be released much like a bomb and cause massive devastation (in the case of Abaddon it threatened to cause Nightfall to occur anyways). To stop this Kormir ran into the center of it all and absorbed the magic claiming Abaddon’s mantle and becoming a goddess. If this was true of the Elder Dragons most likely Orr would have been wiped off of the face of the earth and the devastation would destroy the pact and cause wide-spread panic for the other races, but luck is on our side and this just isn’t true.

The other reason that the god-dragon idea doesn’t make sense is because of the fact that there is no real easy direct comparison. You see each god has a domain that is direct with the mantle that they carry, and then they have separate magic tied to them as well. You see Grenth is the god of death and ice (along with a few other names) but Dhuum had no correlation with ice. The mantle of godhood only claimed lordship over death. This is similar with the other gods. If you were to do a correlation based over their mantles, and not the secondary magics that change from god to god, it would look something like this.

Balthazar – War, Conquest – All Elder Dragons
Melandru – Nature – Mordremoth (though everything about Mordremoth is nothing more than speculation)
Dwayna – Life – Zhaitan (corruption of life is undeath)
Grenth – Death – Zhaitan (corruption of death is undeath)
Lyssa – Beauty and Illusion – None make sense, usually tied to Jormag because of mesmerism
Kormir – Knowledge, Secrets, Spirit – Uhhhh, no clue

The lines are so blurry that you’d need glasses thicker than an iphone to try and make them out. Everything about this theory is just reaching towards an idea just because 6=6. And please don’t take me as being angry or demeaning because of this post. I am just trying to sum up what has been said most often by those who actively oppose the idea.

Really, the fact is they actually could be the same being without having too much in common at all. Much like werewolves and the human they were before the change. So we know the Elder Dragons predate the gods but that still doesn’t eliminate this theory as the cycle of changing may have begun sometime after the ED’s were already doing their thing as ED’s. We also know that the ED’s and the gods don’t have any direct connection as far as qualities go. But again, this doesn’t eliminate the theory.

TLDR: Nothing to support this theory but if we eliminate all presuppositions about how we interpret the confirmed lore, there is also nothing do disprove it.

I think the fact that Zhaitan is outright stated to be different than the Six Gods – in not only the personal story we talk with the Avatar of Grenth, but by the Priests/Priestesses/High Priests/High Priestesses as well as by Randall Graystone (sp?) in Arah explorable – is proof enough to disprove the “theory.”

I don’t think its possible to pull power from a being that is yourself without knowing the source of the power, and it not coming from your own body but some “second body” you had no knowledge of that existed on the world long before you walked it.

The Elder Dragons and the Six Gods existed – physically – at the same time, as two separate, physical, entities.

So, if we just wipe the slate clean, forget everything we know about the gods, the dragons and everything, and then just brainstorm it makes sense?

Umm, yeah, well I’m just gonna forget everything I know about Lord of the Rings, and just make thoughts about everything based off of nothing, because we cannot think of the actual lore, in this instance. So I’m pretty sure, since the name is Lord of the Rings that there are like a dozen men with a dozen rings and they have to kill each other highlander style so that only one can hold all the rings in the end and can save the world. Am I right? Is this a possibility? I mean it could be if we eliminate the lore…

Narcemus.1348:

Sorry, Narcemus. Couldn’t fit your post here, too lenghty

I won’t even bother answer Konig’s thread because I know he will disagree with every word I’m going to say, so there’s no point on me arguing with him. But the relation I see between the gods and the ED is not about the very essence of he gods because we’ve seen part of the pantheon rise and fall.
We know Grenth took over Dhum. We know Abbadon took over some eldest god and then Kormir took over Abaddon.
Every time a god takes over, he/she gives the power slot a new meaning. Like kormir changing secrets into truth. But her underlying power is basically the same, knowledge.
I loved how the aspect of the gods quest on EotN hinted that dragons may be related to gods as for every one of the 6 gods there was a dragon aspect.
I’m not saying that the gods are the dragons I’m not saying that they even share a domain. I only say that there’s a connection. Maybe there’s their raw power source. Maybe there’s something else. Because the Aesthetical theme is far to close (and note that my reason is not entirely based on lore but on graphic design).
A year ago we had 5 dragons and even then, we had some theorist saying that gods may be related with dragons because there’s something that just makes you feel that.
Now we have the same amount of dragons as we have gods.
My gut is telling me that we’ll see their relation soon enough. But from pure lore, there’s no evidence that they’re related at all. I can agree with that.
The thing is that from pure lore we don’t have evidence that we will be able to kill another dragon.
From pure lore we don’t have evidence that the pact will stay together.
But these are things that we know will happen anyway.
The same is with the gods having a relation with the dragons.
And again, note that I’m not saying they’re the same, they just share something.

Narcemus.1348:

So, if we just wipe the slate clean, forget everything we know about the gods, the dragons and everything, and then just brainstorm it makes sense?

Umm, yeah, well I’m just gonna forget everything I know about Lord of the Rings, and just make thoughts about everything based off of nothing, because we cannot think of the actual lore, in this instance. So I’m pretty sure, since the name is Lord of the Rings that there are like a dozen men with a dozen rings and they have to kill each other highlander style so that only one can hold all the rings in the end and can save the world. Am I right? Is this a possibility? I mean it could be if we eliminate the lore…

No. That’s ridiculous. This isn’t what I’m saying at all. What I’m saying is that if we forget the preconceptions of how we interpret the actual facts, it may indeed be possible. Right now, the only thing working against that theory is that there are no similar qualities. And that no one that we know of in the lore will confirm it, but we also know that NPC’s understanding is fallible. So, though weak a possibility it may be, it is a possibility.

Except we have proof in game that Grenth is still active through the Cathedral of Silence story… The reaper says that Grenth is still active and wishes us to fight against Zhaitan. I mean how obvious could you get.

@ Ludo
I could perhaps say that they may have a relation in the way in which they were created (supernatural beings appearing to be in form mostly magic with a physical shell). Perhaps on another world what became the Elder Dragons on Tyria became instead the original pantheon of Gods. Their natures vastly different but their essence similar. But this is speculation to the extreme.

As for some of your other notes, I would say that it is very obvious based on the way in which the wars have progressed that the Pact is together for the long haul, and we know that at the very least Kralkatorrik has a major weakness (being the spine/spear). To say that we can kill them all with what we have is obviously not true, there would have to be vastly differing situations for each scenario, but 1 down does give some leverage to the side of the Pact. Sure, coming to these conclusions comes from following a logical pattern, but in my mind it isn’t logical that these beings which are, from what we’ve seen mostly tied directly to Tyria, are at all directly tied to the 6 gods, which are mainly tied to the Mists in general (until more back-story is released), just because there are 6 of each, which is what the OP tried to state.

We also have NPC’s saying the gods have been devoured by Zaitan. We interpret this to mean Zaitans minions use propaganda. So one of them is a liar. probably Zaitans minions. As I said, the possibility is weak but it’s still there. So you hold you rinterpretations to a double standard. Because there is a big difference between nothing confirming this theory and the fact that it is outright disproven. We only consider it disproven base on out interpretation of the actual facts. But in reality, our interpretation may be completely wrong and when we as fans find out that it is, we tend to cry “RETCON!!”. When only our assumptions were wrong. So I like to acknowledge the possibilities, no matter how unlikely they are.

I honestly think this forum, like others already have, should have some system when you’re going to create a thread that shows you a list of similar threads so new people could see the 2308471980798234 threads on this topic when they try to create their own one U.U

This is such a beat horse we couldn’t even make a lasagna with its remains…

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/The-dragons-are-the-six-human-gods

Merge please.

Ludovicus.7980:

I won’t even bother answer Konig’s thread because I know he will disagree with every word I’m going to say, so there’s no point on me arguing with him.

If you can logically explain to me how the goddess of life and healing is related to the dragon of snow and ice, or how the goddess of knowledge and spirit is related to the dragon of water, be my guess and explain it. Maybe you’ll manage to convince me that the Seventh Reaper is a possible liar about Grenth’s state, or convince me that it makes sense that a race dedicated to the Six Gods were actively fighting their draconic version, or how they can both appear humanoid and yet also draconic.

Perhaps you can convince me of all these things that scream “gods!=dragons.” I’m not unreasonable, if an argument makes sense, I can be convinced. So do explain, and I shall listen.

Ludovicus.7980:

Every time a god takes over, he/she gives the power slot a new meaning. Like kormir changing secrets into truth. But her underlying power is basically the same, knowledge.

Abaddon was the god of knowledge, only called secrets because he was a secret. Kormir was, similarly, also referred to as the Goddess of Secrets by some at first – her full Nightfall title was “Goddess of Knowledge, Secrets, and Truth.” Spirit got tacted on in Eye of the North via the Cipher of Spirit; and Order got tacted on in GW2, with “truth” and “secret” taking a backseat to Knowledge on a whole.

Ludovicus.7980:

I loved how the aspect of the gods quest on EotN hinted that dragons may be related to gods as for every one of the 6 gods there was a dragon aspect.
I’m not saying that the gods are the dragons I’m not saying that they even share a domain. I only say that there’s a connection. Maybe there’s their raw power source. Maybe there’s something else. Because the Aesthetical theme is far to close (and note that my reason is not entirely based on lore but on graphic design).

There is a relation: The facets were tied to the Forgotten and an indication of power which the gods harnessed. In Arah, we find out that the power harnessed was Zhaitan – when they empowered the bloodstone.

That’s the connection created by The Path to Revelations quest chain in GW1. The cipher at the end hinted at Arah explorable, the draconic facets hinted to both ties to the Forgotten and to the Elder Dragons, and that tie was explained in Arah.

But the Six Gods didn’t get their power from the dragons, they aren’t the dragons, they aren’t the Jekyll of the dragons’ Hyde. The Six Gods simply unknowingly tapped into Zhaitan to strengthen the bloodstone.

Maybe they were affected by this, and this caused them to leave, realizing that they were being corrupted by Zhaitan; maybe they, like the Forgotten, were immune to such and left the world without having any clue as to what they drew that power from. This is the real question to be asking and theorizing about, not whether or not the Six Gods and Elder Dragons are the same or hold a one-to-one connection, because the Six Gods only have a connection to one Elder Dragon, and that one’s now dead.

This thread again! Hurray! Short answer to question, are the 6 Dragons the 6 Gods? No.

Thanks for making another pointless thread which will bring up the same old arguments as before and contribute nothing new to the lore community.

After 275638572352 topics about this: NO. THEY ARE NOT.

Ok, so there are several other threads about this same thing. Obviously the OP didn’t know that. I don’t understand why some of you have to be so rude in letting the OP know and instead simply directing him to one of those threads. In my opinion those of you being so snarky and hateful are much worse than someone failing to know that other threads on this topic exists.

@Konig Des Todes: I’ve never said that the gods and the dragons are the same. I agree with you in that it doesn’t make any sense.
What I’m saying is that they share something. Some raw power that I personally believe the dragons wield as their very essence in a way brutal and out of control and the gods have only tapped into it.
I think there’s some underlying story for that power and I wouldn’t be surprised if we find a 6th lost bloodstone (since we know they were 5 in GW1 http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Bloodstone).

There’s a theme there. The absolute power divided in 6.
The 4 schools of magic are easy to relate:

Dwayna – school of preservation (bloodstone known)
Jormag – brutal preservation on Ice

Lyssa – school of denial (bloodstone known)
Kralkatorrik – brutal denial, distortion of reality

Balthazar – school of destruction (bloodstone known)
Primordious – brutal destruction by fire

Grenth – school of aggression (bloodstone known)
Zhaithan – brutal aggression through your very fallen allies

Now the 2 gods which are out of the schools of magic:

Melandru – life and earth
Mordramoth – brutal production of life and earth (well, we don’t really know much about this fellow)

Kormir – knowledge (they key bloodstone I guess)
Bubbles – for all we know he could be the more knowledgeable of all dragons (we know nothing about him)

I must repeat myself: I think the gods and the dragons are totally separate beings, but related somehow, like a screw and a screwdriver.

I became a frequenter of this subforum relatively recently & I missed the other 239853467 threads about this & I see the parallels as something interesting & what jheryn said.

Sry for the tone, but this topic has popped up each week for 10 months now.

Btw there is a lvl 78(?) personal story mission, where you summon one of the Seven Reapers that serve Grenth, and in change for his help, he tasks you with killing the corrupted highpriest, because Grenth wants him back from Zhaitan.

If Grenth=Zhaitan: then in exchange for his help to defeat himself, he would task us to bring back his highpriest from him. Makes sense.

Like one of Dr. Jekel’s associates taking something out of the hands of Mr. Hyde because he knows the will of the good doctor. It’s still possible.

Dustfinger.9510:

Like one of Dr. Jekel’s associates taking something out of the hands of Mr. Hyde because he knows the will of the good doctor. It’s still possible.

Yup, it makes sense. But the thing is, there’s nothing saying that the gods and the dragons are the same. I see in them more like a ying-yang relationship.

jheryn.8390:

Ok, so there are several other threads about this same thing. Obviously the OP didn’t know that. I don’t understand why some of you have to be so rude in letting the OP know and instead simply directing him to one of those threads. In my opinion those of you being so snarky and hateful are much worse than someone failing to know that other threads on this topic exists.

That main reason for being snarky is that is has been discussed to death and it is just as easy to search the forums as it is to start a new thread. Personally I don’t see how anyone makes the correalation between the dragons and gods. To me it makes no sense. If anyone new the lore (Doing Arah gives you a lot of this information) The ED have risen before, which since the gods are not of this planet, arrived here at the end or shortly after the last ED rise would be pretty obivious that they are not the ED’s.

Ludovicus.7980:

-snip-

You were still using the one dragon to one god “connection” which is what I was saying, in relation to you, about what fails – in my last post, I included “gods are dragons” in counteracting just because it’s an all too common part of the same line of thought.

Anyways, the gods and schools of magic don’t have a direct relation. The Keystone isn’t a school of magic – it’s just a “locking mechanism” for the bloodstones. In the same sense, the Bloodstone schools of magic aren’t the only kinds of magic out there and is in fact, a rather small form of the magic. The bloodstone simply contained all non-corrupted magic from the last ED rise, and the gods divided into into how it can be used when Abaddon went full out releasing it.

Ludovicus.7980:

What I’m saying is that they share something. Some raw power that I personally believe the dragons wield as their very essence in a way brutal and out of control and the gods have only tapped into it.

You’re right. They did tap into the magic of dragons. But only Zhaitan. See my previous post.

Ludovicus.7980:

I think there’s some underlying story for that power and I wouldn’t be surprised if we find a 6th lost bloodstone (since we know they were 5 in GW1 http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Bloodstone).

I find this extremely unlikely. It’d be shoehorning in to the utmost degree and would only serve to reduce ArenaNet’s (imo failing) credibility with lore. There are four schools of magic, and a locking mechanism referred to as the keystone. The bloodstone’s origins have been spelled out – mostly – to us, as is the gods’ relation to it. There’s no reason to believe that there’s a sixth bloodstone, for the pure sake that the bloodstone isn’t – as you put it – an “absolute power.”

Similarly, I wouldn’t say there’s any relation between gods and schools of magic. Yes, Lyssa is the patron of mesmers and assassins, but all gods are a patron for elementalists (except possibly Kormir) and under that concept, all gods embody Destruction magic.

I will admit that you’ve managed to link Dwayna and Jormag together in a reasonable way, but that link still fails through the whole correlation. Ignoring the whole numbers bit where you got 4-6-6, I would hardly call Kralkatorrik “denial.” – he doesn’t deny, and he doesn’t distort reality (no more than any other dragon). Also, keep in mind that it is Jormag who uses mental powers. So if anything, it’d be Jormag and Lyssa, not Jormag and Dwayna and Kralkatorrik and Lyssa.

But then you’re left with trying to relate Kralkatorrik and Dwayna. Good luck there.

I similarly wouldn’t really put the DSD as knowledge just because we don’t know anything about him – we only know nothing of it because it’s just that far out of reach. It’d be like saying the singularity is a representation of knowledge because we know nothing beyond it. Metaphorically it’d work – though better as the representation of the unknown – but it’d be no different than saying the DSD is a dragon of knowledge.

Ludovicus.7980:

Dwayna – school of preservation (bloodstone known)
Jormag – brutal preservation on Ice

Well that sort of makes sense

Lyssa – school of denial (bloodstone known)
Kralkatorrik – brutal denial, distortion of reality

all dragons do that, not only Krally

Balthazar – school of destruction (bloodstone known)
Primordious – brutal destruction by fire

Destruction means more than just fire, but I give you that

Grenth – school of aggression (bloodstone known)
Zhaithan – brutal aggression through your very fallen allies

how is making undead out of corpses aggressive by itself? The necro did a lot more with aggression than just summoning undead, like using bloodmagic and curses, both of which Zhaitan doesn’t seem to do and both fit more with aggression.

Now the 2 gods which are out of the schools of magic:

Melandru – life and earth
Mordramoth – brutal production of life and earth (well, we don’t really know much about this fellow)

does Mordramoth produce life? No dragon so far does, in fact it’s said they can’t, they can only twist and corrupt life.

Kormir – knowledge (they key bloodstone I guess)
Bubbles – for all we know he could be the more knowledgeable of all dragons (we know nothing about him)

that’s it, we know nothing about him, so we can’t align him anywhere.

My thoughts are in bold.

Ludovicus.7980:

Dustfinger.9510:

Like one of Dr. Jekel’s associates taking something out of the hands of Mr. Hyde because he knows the will of the good doctor. It’s still possible.

Yup, it makes sense. But the thing is, there’s nothing saying that the gods and the dragons are the same. I see in them more like a ying-yang relationship.

This.

Nothing at all points to it beyond a common “number of perpetrators” and the fact that they are never seen in the same place at once. So, not nearly enough to “make an arrest” but definatly enough to keep an eye out for and at least acknowledge the possibility without making a definitive statement about how it isn’t true.

Hjorje.9453:

That main reason for being snarky is that is has been discussed to death and it is just as easy to search the forums as it is to start a new thread.

So what you are saying is that a person that is new to the forums is supposed to look up anything before he or she posts? And also that it is ok to be snarky and rude to people when a simple link to a previous post would do? I don’t think so. Good way to scare off people new to the forums and make a jerk out of yourself in the process.

IMO, anyone should be willing to use the search function before asking a question – new or old to the site. I sure as hell know I try searching first.

Dustfinger.9510:

Ludovicus.7980:

Dustfinger.9510:

Like one of Dr. Jekel’s associates taking something out of the hands of Mr. Hyde because he knows the will of the good doctor. It’s still possible.

Yup, it makes sense. But the thing is, there’s nothing saying that the gods and the dragons are the same. I see in them more like a ying-yang relationship.

This.

Nothing at all points to it beyond a common “number of perpetrators” and the fact that they are never seen in the same place at once. So, not nearly enough to “make an arrest” but definatly enough to keep an eye out for and at least acknowledge the possibility without making a definitive statement about how it isn’t true.

And this sums it all folks

Well Konig, maybe you and Hjorje should start a forum etiquette class that everyone should take before they are allowed to post here. Yes, that was snarky and deserved. Nothing you or anyone else says will make me believe that it is OK to be overtly rude.

If I can use a search function before creating a thread, everyone can. And this particular topic comes up every 2 weeks it seems, it shouldn’t be hard to find (and isn’t). People who can’t do that deserve being called out on it, how will they learn from mistakes if they don’t know they made one?

jheryn, did I say anything about rudeness? No I didn’t – because rudeness isn’t really acceptable as you say. I did apologize in my own original post if I seemed rude, but kitten it, it comes up too frequently it gets on nerves. And I think it’s obvious I’m not the only one.

But I don’t care who you are or how new you are, the search function isn’t hard to use, and simply searching “6 god dragon” got me a number of related threads.

And being told to use the search function isn’t “snarky and rude” in of itself – as BuddhaKeks said, if people don’t know they made a mistake, how can the learn from it? Being pointed out mistakes in of itself is being helpful. If it comes out as rude, then it comes out as rude. Not everyone in this thread was.

No one deserves to be treated badly. There is a vast difference between telling someone they made a mistake in a kind way and “calling someone out” as if they had committed a mortal sin.

Your response to the OP was just rude BuddhaKeks. And to use your own words it “contribute[d] nothing new to the lore community.”

If it bothers you so much that someone else has posted something before and you can’t be decent, don’t post anything in reply. And what does it hurt any of you if something is posted again? Ignore it in that case. The duplicate thread isn’t impairing your life in any way.

I don’t understand the mentality that anyone has that makes them believe it is alright for them to be mean to other people over something as trivial as a game thread.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

jheryn, did I say anything about rudeness?

No you didn’t and I owe you an apology for that. It just hit me wrong. My bad.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And being told to use the search function isn’t “snarky and rude” in of itself – as BuddhaKeks said, if people don’t know they made a mistake, how can the learn from it? Being pointed out mistakes in of itself is being helpful. If it comes out as rude, then it comes out as rude. Not everyone in this thread was.

You are also right about this, but others, like BuddhaKeks initial replies were in no way simply pointing out mistakes. Read Buddha’s original post and tell me if you think that was a decent way to point something out.

And this is a recurring theme from many threads. It seems many people on these threads cannot discuss something in a civil manner if someone brings up something they disagree with or have posted before. Some people don’t have the time to go back and read every post ever written in order to maybe avoid discussing something that has been discussed before.

Dustfinger.9510:

Ludovicus.7980:

Dustfinger.9510:

Like one of Dr. Jekel’s associates taking something out of the hands of Mr. Hyde because he knows the will of the good doctor. It’s still possible.

Yup, it makes sense. But the thing is, there’s nothing saying that the gods and the dragons are the same. I see in them more like a ying-yang relationship.

This.

Nothing at all points to it beyond a common “number of perpetrators” and the fact that they are never seen in the same place at once. So, not nearly enough to “make an arrest” but definatly enough to keep an eye out for and at least acknowledge the possibility without making a definitive statement about how it isn’t true.

Just because Balthasar is associated with fire, it makes him primordus?

What kind of power would you give to your villains in which case you can’t force out a connection with a god or a dragon? Proves nothing at all.

Gods cover the elements + other basical things like knowledge, illusions. So gods cover almost everything. It would be hard to find something which is not related to any of these…

It’s like saying Queen Jennah is the Emperor of Cantha, because they both rule a nation.

@jheryn,

I have to agree with Konig on this one. When I started reading and posting on the forums, I would always search the forum before hand. It didn’t really feel the need to bring something up if it has been talked about before. I only really do this on the lore forums, as the other ones are kinda different.

As for starting a forum etiquette class that might be a good idea. As for me doing it probably not. LOL.

As for this topic, it really gets on my nerves when it comes up, it is quite annoying to discuss the same thing all the time with just a different group. It comes up like every two weeks.

Hjorje.9453:

@jheryn,

I have to agree with Konig on this one. When I started reading and posting on the forums, I would always search the forum before hand. It didn’t really feel the need to bring something up if it has been talked about before. I only really do this on the lore forums, as the other ones are kinda different.

As for starting a forum etiquette class that might be a good idea. As for me doing it probably not. LOL.

As for this topic, it really gets on my nerves when it comes up, it is quite annoying to discuss the same thing all the time with just a different group. It comes up like every two weeks.

I see what you are saying, Hjorje. But the thing is you think people should do what you do and think like you think. Not everyone does processes and thinks like you. Their first instinct isn’t to search the forums or think that they even need to do so. Pointing it out like Konig said is good, but being rude or snarky about it is not.

The second thing is something I mentioned earlier, if it annoys you, don’t comment. Stay away from the thread. Unless you have thread OCD and feel you must comment, why not just ignore it? It isn’t hurting anyone by being there.

I don’t see how wanting other people to use the search function of the forum, provided in an obviously seen place in an easy-to-use format, is wanting other people to “do what you do and think like you think.” Possibly the first, but it’s such a minor, easy-to-do thing that it’s hardly considerable to be “what you do,” nor is it all that out there for expecting others to use the search function, especially when it’s so commonly said to search first.

jheryn.8390:

It seems many people on these threads cannot discuss something in a civil manner if someone brings up something they disagree with or have posted before. Some people don’t have the time to go back and read every post ever written in order to maybe avoid discussing something that has been discussed before.

Firstly, there’s actually few cases where there’s uncivilized discussion upon something they disagree with – lately there have been more cases than usual, yes, but that’s not out of disagreement but out of the stubbornness on all sides of the parties for continuing to argue the same thing upon either something that’s fully opinionated (always a sensitive field when neither side has evidence for support – and it is what I can outright name at least three people do frequently), or when discussing things where its been disproven yet there’s still argument for it under the pretense of “well Anet can decide to go against what they said, because they can!” (in most cases at least – certainly not all).

In this case, it’s simply something that’s so often restated that most times a new thread pops up, there’s a thread of it on the very front page.

No one’s asking others to go reading through all threads on the forum. Far from it. But using the search function – or in worse situations, looking at the threads on the front page – is hardly demanding.

IMHO the relation between the gods and the dragons is like it was the existence of Mordremoth.
It’s certainly not confirmed in the lore (we all agree with that) but it’s hinted.

@Konig Des Todes:
Since you didn’t see the link through the schools, let me elaborate:
All the schools have a pure form and some deviations, that’s what allowed the original classes to flourish.
Monks (Preservation) had some destructive ways to preserve (smite condition, for instance)
Necromancers (Aggression) were able to summon fiendish minions not even though it wasn’t their aggression itself, but aggression put into flesh.
Mesmers (Denial) were able to twist and turn things in their favor, unleashing chaos. They denied their opponents ability to do anything by twisting him/her.
Elementalists(Destruction) wielded power to destroy magic itself and feed on it (ether renewal, aura of restoration)

I see the same raw power on the visible dragons.
Jormag is a monkish dragon (Dwayina)
Kralkatorrik is a mesmerish dragon (Lyssa)
Primordious is an elementalish dragon (Balthazar)
Zhaithan is a necroish dragon (Grenth)

For the other two dragons, we know little about them:
One is unknown and possibly related to the jungle. Thing that points to Melandru.
The other is deep in the sea and has driven some species away. Knowing nothing about this last dragon, nothing forbid us to peer it with Kormir.

To conclude this entry I just want to say that I know that there’s nothing in the lore that confirms any connection between the gods and the dragons but the fact that they might’ve tapped into Zhaitan’s power in Orr. But there’s nothing that says the contrary. And they have thematical and aesthetical similarities.

@Konig – I agree with you. 100% There is nothing wrong with wanting people to look things up. You are not understanding what I am saying. Here is as nutshell as I can make it.
1. Point out when people should use the search but do not be mean about it.
2. Realize that not everyone thinks to use the search when they are new to the forums. Again point it out but don’t be rude.
3. If you see a thread that has been posted before, it doesn’t give anyone the right to hit the thread and start being a jerk. If you can’t say something nice…etc., etc., etc.
4. No one is forcing anyone to comment on a thread. If you see a topic that has been done before repeatedly. Ignore the new one. It isn’t hurting you. Move on.
5. I find it pretty funny that people would get annoyed by a repeated topic. Who cares?

jheryn.8390:

@Konig – I agree with you. 100% There is nothing wrong with wanting people to look things up. You are not understanding what I am saying. Here is as nutshell as I can make it.
1. Point out when people should use the search but do not be mean about it.
2. Realize that not everyone thinks to use the search when they are new to the forums. Again point it out but don’t be rude.
3. If you see a thread that has been posted before, it doesn’t give anyone the right to hit the thread and start being a jerk. If you can’t say something nice…etc., etc., etc.
4. No one is forcing anyone to comment on a thread. If you see a topic that has been done before repeatedly. Ignore the new one. It isn’t hurting you. Move on.
5. I find it pretty funny that people would get annoyed by a repeated topic. Who cares?

Mostly this

Ludovicus.7980:

Elementalists(Destruction) wielded power to destroy magic itself and feed on it (ether renewal, aura of restoration)

This is the first bit I disagree with. I don’t see Destruction as the destruction of magic, but using magic to destroy physically. The schools of magic are quite literal in their names, in how they act with other things – with aggravation being the less direct). Preservation works upon things being preserved; Denial works upon things being denied; Aggravation works upon things being in motion; Destructions works on things breaking down (effectively being destroyed) – be it harmful or helpful or neutral things being affected.

Ludovicus.7980:

I see the same raw power on the visible dragons.
Jormag is a monkish dragon (Dwayina)
Kralkatorrik is a mesmerish dragon (Lyssa)
Primordious is an elementalish dragon (Balthazar)
Zhaithan is a necroish dragon (Grenth)

Jormag’s far from monkish. He and his minions are outright stated to affect others via the mind – read through Edge of Destiny if you haven’t. He doesn’t heal anything, and over time his minions deteriorate into ice. They’re not being preserved, they’re being changed and weakened (old icebrood, in lore, are harder to take down from piercing shots but easier to take down with blunt force – ice shatters).

Kralkatorrik is most related to Elementalism in regards to professions. There’s nothing mental about him – the only mental aspects to him we have ever seen is when he’s attacked mentally. He twists with his fiery breath, his minions are of crystal and use lightning, earth, crystal, and fire attacks. The only connection to mesmerism Kralkatorrik has is the color purple.

Same goes with Primordus – other than having minions of fire, there’s no ties to elementalism. Of course, he doesn’t hold ties to other professions either, but we don’t really know much about him except his supposed desire to genocide all life (whereas other dragons seek to twist and/or control all life). In a similar manner, Balthazar is nor more of an Elementalist than the other gods are – Dwayna is Air; Melandru is Earth; Balthazar is Fire; Grenth/Lyssa make up Water.

And this is where things truly fall apart for you – Elementalism doesn’t have a single god, and every dragon holds an element to themselves (sans Zhaitan). There is no profession to dragon linking because there is no monk dragon (unless its Mordremoth or the DSD), and all dragons are linked to a quarter of Elementalists.

Besides, you’re ignoring the other spellcasters completely. What about Ritualists, who don’t use a school of magic per se but rather bypass the bloodstone via spirits? What about thieves who also use denial but aren’t related to chaos? Where’s Kralkatorrik’s tie into thieves?

And as shown via Mesmers and Thieves, the same school of magic can be used in multiple manners, with multiple fronts. I bet you that, lore-wise, it is possible to use the Destruction school of magic without ever once touching the concept of elements – and in turn, Elementalism.

Ludovicus.7980:

Knowing nothing about this last dragon, nothing forbid us to peer it with Kormir.

“Knowing nothing about Arachnia, nothing forbid us to peer it as the queen and mother of all gods.”

Doesn’t work like that, sorry, because nothing allows you to pair (not peer, I’m sure) it with Kormir either.

Ludovicus.7980:

But there’s nothing that says the contrary. And they have thematical and aesthetical similarities.

There’s less thematical and aesthetical similarities than you seem to believe. But you must realize that “the lack of evidence” is not always not “the evidence of lacking.” Sometimes the lack of evidence is the evidence of lacking. And this is more likely than not, obviously unprovable, such a case.

I think that if there was more connection, such would have been hinted at by now. But instead, we’re only told things that imply the contrary – even if it isn’t saying the contrary.

Ludovicus.7980:

Dustfinger.9510:

Ludovicus.7980:

Dustfinger.9510:

Like one of Dr. Jekel’s associates taking something out of the hands of Mr. Hyde because he knows the will of the good doctor. It’s still possible.

Yup, it makes sense. But the thing is, there’s nothing saying that the gods and the dragons are the same. I see in them more like a ying-yang relationship.

This.

Nothing at all points to it beyond a common “number of perpetrators” and the fact that they are never seen in the same place at once. So, not nearly enough to “make an arrest” but definatly enough to keep an eye out for and at least acknowledge the possibility without making a definitive statement about how it isn’t true.

And this sums it all folks

Well you two are more than free to point out to me that I’m wrong if this happens, but for me there is no connection, and never will be. Unless NEW INFORMATION becomes available there is nothing connecting the ED’s and the gods. This is just my opinion, backed by my interpretation of the lore. Because my interpretation does not leave any room for there to be the direct connection that you two are now pointing towards (note I already stated the possibility for there to be similarities in origins of some sorts, but your current posts are pointing towards more direct ED-god correlations).

Ludovicus.7980:

Monks (Preservation) had some destructive ways to preserve (smite condition, for instance)
Necromancers (Aggression) were able to summon fiendish minions not even though it wasn’t their aggression itself, but aggression put into flesh.
Mesmers (Denial) were able to twist and turn things in their favor, unleashing chaos. They denied their opponents ability to do anything by twisting him/her.
Elementalists(Destruction) wielded power to destroy magic itself and feed on it (ether renewal, aura of restoration)

I see the same raw power on the visible dragons.
Jormag is a monkish dragon (Dwayina)
Kralkatorrik is a mesmerish dragon (Lyssa)
Primordious is an elementalish dragon (Balthazar)
Zhaithan is a necroish dragon (Grenth)

I have to strongly disagree with all of this.

Preservation – Deals most strongly in healing, but can turn healing into a fighting effect. It kind of sounds to me like how poison can be made from medication. Too much of a good thing can kill.

Aggression – This has always seemed to strike me as self inflicting wounds in order to harm an enemy worse than you have harmed yourself. Many Necromancer skills have a sort of backlash effect, although this is not always the case (and people are free to challenge me on this).

Denial – This field of magic seems to deal with altering perceptions and even the fabric of reality.

Destruction – This type of magic works by destroying something, usually one of the elements, in order to create something to be used for your own purposes.

Now, in game we are told just exactly how the professions feel about the gods (these being human professions, because obviously charr of any profession won’t kneel to them)

Necromancers revere Grenth for the most part.
Assassins revere Lyssa
Mesmers revere Lyssa
Monks revere Dwayna (except smiters who revere Balthazar)
Elementalists revere a different god depending on their attunement, or they revere all
Ritualists revere Grenth I believe, though there may be room for Dwayna as well
Rangers revere Melandru
Warriors revere Balthazar
Dervishes and Paragons revere all if I remember right, being holy warriors and all.

@Konig
Just one thing. There’s now school of aggravation. It’s aggression.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magic

This being said you can see how the fields of magic seem to align.

Destruction – All gods based on elemental attunements
Preservation – Dwayna
Denial – Lyssa
Aggression – Grenth

Now to look at the types of magic when tied to Elder Dragons.

Aggression – I cannot say that any 1 specific Elder Dragon deserves this position more than any other. All use some of their magic in order to create their minions, just because Zhaitans are undead looking doesn’t mean that he is any more deserving of this spot than Kralkatorrik or Jormag.

Destruction – We know of at least two elder dragons that seem to fracture or destroy the basic fabric of elements to create their minions. Primordus does this to create Destroyers, but the DSD also does this to create his minions. Until ArenaNet changes their lore, he creates tentacled minions out of the water itself.

Preservation – I cannot think of any elder dragon that attempts to use too much of a good thing in order to kill, or that tries to heal. The only possible examples would be if Zhaitan actually had a mentality that creating risen was saving people from death (which some minions state outright) or Kralkatorrik who some people seem to theorize desires perfection above all else. In an attempt to perfect the creatures in the brand he created the devastation that followed.

Denial – The only elder dragon that seems to have any interest in changing perceived reality or even the fabric of the world would be Jormag. He corrupts his minions mostly through persuasion and mental probing and he has at least once burst through into the Mists.

So the final Line-up you have is…

Destruction – All Gods – Primordus & DSD
Preservation – Dwayna – Kralkatorrik & Zhaitan
Aggression – Grenth – All ED’s
Denial – Lyssa – Jormag

If you add this on top of the fact that we know the magic of the bloodstones came from sucking up all the magic that was NOT CORRUPTED OR USED BY THE ELDER DRAGONS you seem to get the idea that perhaps the magic of Tyria is not related to the Elder Dragons just like it is not related to the gods. It was natural to Tyria in the first place and it was bottled up by the seers. The only thing the gods had to do with it was changing how it was distributed.

Narcemus.1348:

Aggression – This has always seemed to strike me as self inflicting wounds in order to harm an enemy worse than you have harmed yourself. Many Necromancer skills have a sort of backlash effect, although this is not always the case (and people are free to challenge me on this).

Aggression acts on movement – whether it be giving movement to the inanimate (minions), or reacting to movement and action. If you’re “aggressive” (proactive), then you trigger the magic – or it makes something “aggressive” (active) when it previously wasn’t.

That’s how I always took it at least.

Narcemus.1348:

Assassins revere Lyssa
[…]
Monks revere Dwayna (except smiters who revere Balthazar)
[…]
Ritualists revere Grenth I believe, though there may be room for Dwayna as well
[…]
Dervishes and Paragons revere all if I remember right, being holy warriors and all.

Assassins revere both Lyssa and Grenth, actually.

Monks revering Balthazar are Smiting and Protection, actually. Usually overlooked, but truth.

Ritualists are only said to revere Grenth.

Dervishes revere all, but Paragons are Dwayna and Balthazar, like Monks.

Ludovicus.7980:

@Konig
Just one thing. There’s now school of aggravation. It’s aggression.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magic

Aggravation, aggression. They’re the same concept – same word, actually, just different usage (aggravation is making others aggressive; aggression is the act of being aggressive). I had originally said that the school of Aggression aggrivates, but erased that for further explanation. It’s VERY hot here in my house, so the heat probably got me mixing my thoughts up and making me forget to correct that bit.

Irregardless, name mistake aside, my point remains unchallenged.

Narcemus.1348:

Destruction – We know of at least two elder dragons that seem to fracture or destroy the basic fabric of elements to create their minions. Primordus does this to create Destroyers, but the DSD also does this to create his minions. Until ArenaNet changes their lore, he creates tentacled minions out of the water itself.

No dragon “fracture or destroy” the basic fabric of elements for their minions. They twist and change. There’s no destruction seen or shown involved with making Destroyers – or the tentacles, for what little we know. If any dragon fits Destruction with how it does things with magic, it’s Kralkatorrik.

He turns into a sandstorm, breaking his own body down in the process. The lightning and fire he uses destroys and scorches. The crystals Branded make shatter to damage foes.

Kralkatorrik is far more Destruction school of magic than Primordus has shown to be any day. And far more of an Elementalist, utilizing three of them personally.