Guild Wars 2

Had a little thought with my coffee this morning – obviously, Guild Wars Factions was released long before the concept of the Elder Dragons had been conceived of, but I imagine it’d be impossible for the players to return to Cantha without somehow addressing the fact that much of Canthan culture, down to the name of the Empire itself, is heavily dragon-oriented. Far too much so for it to be a coincidence, logically. My question is how this could best be approached.

The most obvious place to look for the origin of the prevalence of dragons in Canthan culture is saltspray dragons, like Kuunavang. According to the Factions manuscripts, “Dragons of all shapes, sizes, and origin have called Cantha home for thousands of years, since long before the tribes of old joined to form the empire that took them as its symbol”. Again, this was written long before the idea of Elder Dragons had been conceived so its relevance is questionable, but it tells us that the dragons of Cantha date back to before 510 BE, when a unified Cantha came to be.

Whether Kuunavang has anything to do with the Elder Dragons is ambiguous – The Movement of the World states that “Glint and Kuunavang were but youths, lesser powers to the ancients that came before”, and “Although these creatures are called dragons, they are as different from Kuunavang and Glint as night to day—more powerful, older, born of different, unfathomable magic”. Of course we now know this to be not quite true – Glint was actually a champion of the Elder Dragon Kralkatorrik, so presumably at some point (remember The Movement of the World was a very early document) the writers decided that actually, Glint does have a connection to the Dragons. Glint and Kuunavang, however, are very physiologically dissimilar (Glint, as well as the majority of recent Elder Dragon concept art, are European dragons whereas Kuunavang and Canthan statues are much closer to Chinese dragons), and aside from both being late-game exposition fairies/allies to the players, they have nothing linking them.

The most authoritative text on Canthan lore, An Empire Divided, offers little clues as to the origin of the Empire of the Dragon, telling us that records from this time tell of the Six Gods ordering Kaineng to unite the clans. If true (and it isn’t necessarily – the text reminds us to be suspicious of records from this time), it likely has nothing to do with the Elder Dragons – the fact that the gods built Arah where they did demonstrates that they can’t have had much knowledge of the ones that came before.

My own (completely off-the-cuff, this isn’t well researched at all) speculation would be this: the six dragons we fight in Tyria is only a small fraction of the total number of Elder Dragons in the world, and the ones depicted in statues, etc. are other Elder Dragons, that awakened long ago in Cantha. The dragons worshipped by Canthans, such as the saltspray dragons and Kuunavang, are possibly descendants of Elder Dragon minions freed by Forgotten magic (the Forgotten also inhabited Cantha long ago), or remnants/offshoots of a much older race of dragons, possibly as old as Tyria itself, from which Glint also came (meaning Glint would have been corrupted rather than constructed by Kralkatorrik).

Tl;dr: Do you think that the fact that Cantha is the ‘Empire of the Dragon’ would be addressed in a potential future Canthan Living World arc, and if so, how?

I really, really hope so- as you pointed out, some of the very earliest information we were given about the nature of the Elder Dragons included comparisons between them and Glint and Kuunavang, and while Glint was later expanded on quite a bit, Kuunavang was left as a hanging thread.

Unfortunately, I think how deeply tied Cantha is to the Elder Dragons may in large part come down to cultural sensitivities. Remember, the entire Canthan district of GW2 was retconned out of existence on the supposed rationale that it might seem insulting to an asian audience, and this was years before they were ready to launch in China. With the upcoming release over there, I would expect such considerations to have the final say in anything Canthan related.

I would like to point something out that’s clearly missed.

http://nl.twitch.tv/guildwars2/b/327657138

This was shortly before release, and Glint, Rotscale, and Kuunavang were all compared to each other. In historical note – in 2009 at either Gamescom or PAX, Glint and Rotscale were compared back then; and as pointed out already, Glint and Kuunavang were in 2007 via The Movement of the World.

I would like to point out that the Movement of the World doesn’t say Glint and Kuunavang are unrelated to the Elder Dragons, but that they’re vastly different and that the Elder Dragons are greatly older and born of different origins – which is very true.

We have strong enough evidence to believe that there’s a seventh Elder Dragon out there, tied to Kuunavang. I would also point out that not all six present Elder Dragons are necessarily tied to continental Tyria – yet we know very clearly that the jotun and dwarves speak of six (and for the jotun, six that consumed the world) – it would be interesting to find out that Mordremoth and the DSD (who’s names are not known presently to be in such records and are unknown to have had previous continental Tyria influence unlike the others) are not of those “sextant of swallowers” much like Kuunavang’s Elder Dragon may not be. Just possibilities to be thrown out there.

As to the TL;DR question: I do not think it will be touched upon for quite some time, sadly. ArenaNet seems overly reluctant to open new areas quickly, let alone Cantha specifically, and I don’t think we’ll go into Cantha’s history until we go there (sans modern (post-GW1) history that is).

My own theory for why the Empire of the Dragon is called such relates to the Celestial Dragon. We never actually are told that formerly-Empress Tahmu was Canthan, despite the mention of hostile naga (which itself is strange given that naga were peaceful until the Jade Wind) and historically we only know of one city in the Empire of the Dragon. Combine this with the knowledge that humanity sailed to Cantha, we have strong reason to believe that while they may have been divided tribes they could have come from somewhere advanced enough culturally to be an empire. And Kaineng Tah could have come from a tribe that already revered Tahmu the Celestial Dragon.

Just one of the potential possibilities I’ve theorized. Another being that the “Elder Star Dragon” that is Kuunavang’s master may be benevolent and hold ties to both the Celestials and to the earlier emperors of Cantha.

Though Occam’s Razor would say it’s called Empire of the Dragon for the reason the Factions manual points out, with no relation directly to the Elder Dragons, regardless of if the dragons in Cantha are tied to Elder Dragons.

I think a benevolent ED would be a fascinating spin on the ED’s story and could potentially be an unlock to their history, nature and even why they are so destructive. Just because they lay waste to the world every cycle doesn’t mean that was always the case. Something could have happened long, long ago that triggered this destructive behaviour. After all, the EDs are practically sentient forces of nature.

Hell, if we still have a tyrant ruling Cantha we could have a story that actually involves saving an ED. That would be crazy. Imagine if the Emperor of Cantha knew the location of the sleeping dragon and nature and after the Empire unified chose to start syphoning off its power, perhaps through some old Forgotten ritual or something. We could then end up fighting against a empowered tyrant to free Cantha and the ED.

This is a very interesting read Tamias! Also thanks to Konig for adding to it, I really didn’t know about the interview that also included Rotscale. (Also a nice theory btw!)

All that gave me some ideas I didn’t quite consider before, so here’s some food for thoughts: What if some EDs already killed other ones in the past? I mean we are told the EDs view each other as enemies, so why shouldn’t there have been any that got wiped out in confrontations. We already have living EDs without records, so in addition to this number there’s a good possibility that what we currently know of really IS a small fraction of Elder dragons that existed.
Also possible: What if Kuuvanang is a left-over lieutenant of a possibly benevolent ED that was killed a long time ago by another ED?

Though whether we’ll see things about in Cantha in the LS? It’s been 2 years for us to go towards the West of Tyria now. Then there’s the Far Shiverpeaks, the Isles of Janthir, the Blood Legion homelands, The Ring of Fire, The Unending Ocean, The Deldrimor front, Scavenger’s Causeaway and the Crystal Desert which also developed Half-life 3 status.
Even if Anet went zig-zag deciding to go to Cantha before uncovering half of continental Tyria, it’d be years from now. At least that’s what my intuition tells me, I’d be happy to be wrong.

Since the entire planet is apparently covered in an “ocean of magic”, either there are a LOT more than 6 elder dragons, or they’re not very good at finding food.

(Or bizarre thought, the rest of Tyria is populated with beings far more competent and powerful than the likes of mursaat and seers, and the continent of Tyria is basically free food. )

ElysianEternity.6215:

I mean we are told the EDs view each other as enemies

False. What we were told is “they are not allied.” This doesn’t mean they’re enemies, it just means they don’t work together.

Though Captain Whiting in Sea of Sorrows does say “this is the time of the Elder Dragons” (paraphrased) so it wouldn’t be odd to consider them as friendly-but-not-allied. The closest to “they’re enemies” we get is if the minions cross each others’ paths, they fight. But given that the Elder Dragons don’t care much on what they do (see here – Jormag doesn’t care that Sons of Svanir kill his female norn icebrood), this doesn’t account to much in regards to hostility between Elder Dragons.

Though I do want to see a battle between two dragon champions.

Fluffball.8307:

Since the entire planet is apparently covered in an “ocean of magic”, either there are a LOT more than 6 elder dragons, or they’re not very good at finding food.

(Or bizarre thought, the rest of Tyria is populated with beings far more competent and powerful than the likes of mursaat and seers, and the continent of Tyria is basically free food. )

Well, keep in mind that in the last dragon rise, all non-consumed magic was put into the Bloodstone. So their present placement may not be their choice so much as them looking for the final scraps of food. The DSD’s distance can be explained via the krait obelisks – as it’s said they are akin to the Bloodstones.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

ElysianEternity.6215:

I mean we are told the EDs view each other as enemies

False. What we were told is “they are not allied.” This doesn’t mean they’re enemies, it just means they don’t work together.

Though Captain Whiting in Sea of Sorrows does say “this is the time of the Elder Dragons” (paraphrased) so it wouldn’t be odd to consider them as friendly-but-not-allied. The closest to “they’re enemies” we get is if the minions cross each others’ paths, they fight. But given that the Elder Dragons don’t care much on what they do (see here – Jormag doesn’t care that Sons of Svanir kill his female norn icebrood), this doesn’t account to much in regards to hostility between Elder Dragons.

I guess ‘rivals’ would have been the better choice of words with what I wanted to say. Poor choice of words on my part. I meant not that that they hunted down each other because we know they don’t, but simply in that some clashed before and got killed when the EDs first ‘marked’ and established their territories.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Though I do want to see a battle between two dragon champions.

At least one thing we can agree 100% on. ;D

Just hope two of the big guys (ED’s) don’t go at it…

I mean it might make an epic video cinematic… but the devastation across so much land would be incredible. Much safer to take them on one at a time, lol.

Don’t be silly. All the Elder Dragons will converge to a single place, including the Legs of Zhaitan (which are his lower half that weren’t seen in-game yet, includes his front chest, second huge arm, and jaw), and then you get them all shouting:

Primordus: Fire!
Jormag: Ice!
Bubbles: Water!
Kralkorrik: Crystal!
Mordrrmoth: Plant!
Zhaitan: Undeath!

Together: Together we form together to make….

Captain Dragon!

!http://www.kekaiart.com/uploads/5/4/7/6/5476798/8048923_orig.jpg!

… Is it bad that I would find that so awesome? XD

Maybe the number of elder dragons is not fixed. They could, possibly, grow and change and take over each other’s roles, like the Gods. Personally I suspect that’s what’s happening with The Sunless.

Especially if you reflect that, Tyrian dragons much like, actual human gods were the product of successive revisions to the script(tures), and (again like human religion) , could be ret-conned into and out of existence.

Lutinz.6915:

After all, the EDs are practically sentient forces of nature.

Debatable, although there’s no definite prove either way. It’s not like we get to sit down and have a Q&A session with a ED.
ED’s are described as forces of nature, but there’s also the argument to be made that they act with some intelligence (although most examples tend to be more emotional, but I’m bias :P).
I’m still on the primal-instinctive-force-of-destruction side myself. In this theory Champions and Lieutenants are where the thinking occurs while the EDs are driven by the desire to eat and spread. So in the case of Zhaitan all tactical choices made were simply the higher ranking Risen acting to fill the desires of their master.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

ElysianEternity.6215:

I mean we are told the EDs view each other as enemies

False. What we were told is “they are not allied.” This doesn’t mean they’re enemies, it just means they don’t work together.

Though Captain Whiting in Sea of Sorrows does say “this is the time of the Elder Dragons” (paraphrased) so it wouldn’t be odd to consider them as friendly-but-not-allied. The closest to “they’re enemies” we get is if the minions cross each others’ paths, they fight. But given that the Elder Dragons don’t care much on what they do (see here – Jormag doesn’t care that Sons of Svanir kill his female norn icebrood), this doesn’t account to much in regards to hostility between Elder Dragons.

Though I do want to see a battle between two dragon champions.

Well presumable once they’ve overrun the entirety of Tyria, and eaten basically all the magic the only things left would be each other. So it’s highly likely that around the end of the cycle the chances of them encountering each other grows in indirect proportion to how few none ED entities are left.
Although if all magic has been eaten by the EDs and is thus contained within them, would that mean that one ED would try to eat another ED?

One of the things that’s interesting about Cantha is that if an elder dragon is responsible for the draconic creatures there, then apart from their attitudes (mostly being friendly until the Jade Wind) the form of corruption is very different to that seen in Tyria. The draconic form is fairly uncommon in Tyria – apart from champions and Risen Knights (and in the latter case, it’s part of their function) the dragons do not grant a draconic aspect to their minions, instead causing them to erupt in crystals or show some other sign of the magical aspect of their dragon. In Cantha, on the other hand… as well as the Saltsprays, you get dragon turtles, dragon horses, even dragon plants. There’s something in Cantha that pushes things to become more, well, dragonlike.

One possibility is that Cantha is actually the birthplace of the dragons. It has the widest range of dragonlike creatures (while the rest of Tyria simply has drakes) – if it is where the elder dragons actually evolved, it might actually be that it’s the one place the dragons decided to keep sacred.

Another possibility, as touched on several times before, is that the Canthan elder dragon may be one that has become relatively benign. This isn’t necessarily altruism – Jormag, for instance, we see accepting worshippers among the Sons of Svanir without necessarily corrupting them and without Jormag’s minions attacking the Sons. If not for the Son’s misogyny, and that Jormag has already made itself an enemy for most norn by starting with an assault on their homeland, the possibility is there that the norn might have been able to take shelter from the dragons by worshipping and being accepted by Jormag as a society.

With that in mind, consider what might happen if a society, on arriving within the territory of a sleeping dragon, sees signs of the dragon’s presence and begins worshiping it, immediately or through the proxy of its champions? Said dragon, or the champions that represent it, might come to the conclusion that there’s no point expending resources attacking a society that already effectively belongs to it, and adopt that society wholesale… gaining the benefits that other dragons reap by force but with much less effort. After such a scenario has played out once, that might become the favoured tactic of such a dragon, behaving in a manner, and commanding its champions to behave in a manner, that encourages any new society that springs up in its territory to come to worship it without needing to be corrupted, rather than fearing it because it presents itself as a threat.

Such a dragon would have a practical reason to make those minions it does create through whatever means to have appearances that bring to mind a dragon – because as those minions engage in deeds that inspire worship in non-minions, it cements in the minds of such non-minions present a connection between draconic natures and benevolent divinity.

Or perhaps Cantha has a natural magic source powerful and luring enough for the local E.dragon that human society isn’t worth bothering with. That in turn could lead to cases where the locals were able to observe said dragon without being bothered by it, which then caused the dragon motif to appear in the local culture as a non threatening symbol.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Don’t be silly. All the Elder Dragons will converge to a single place, including the Legs of Zhaitan (which are his lower half that weren’t seen in-game yet, includes his front chest, second huge arm, and jaw), and then you get them all shouting:

Primordus: Fire!
Jormag: Ice!
Bubbles: Water!
Kralkorrik: Crystal!
Mordrrmoth: Plant!
Zhaitan: Undeath!

Together: Together we form together to make….

Captain Dragon!

!http://www.kekaiart.com/uploads/5/4/7/6/5476798/8048923_orig.jpg!

Captain Dragon! He’s not our hero! He will bring the world of Tyria back to zero!\

THE POWER IS MINE! MUHAHAHAHA!

Additional food for thought:

“Early pre-imperial era? What? That can’t…oh, I’m sorry. Did you need something?”
What are you working on?
“Same as everyone else: the dragons, of course. It’s of critical importance that we find their weaknesses or some clue to what’s happening.”

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Historian_Angelina

Interesting that she would make mention of the Canthan calendar dating system when researching Elder Dragons, isn’kitten

ApplePearOrange.9281:

Or perhaps Cantha has a natural magic source powerful and luring enough for the local E.dragon that human society isn’t worth bothering with. That in turn could lead to cases where the locals were able to observe said dragon without being bothered by it, which then caused the dragon motif to appear in the local culture as a non threatening symbol.

The dragons do seem to have a concept of other life being a potential threat as well as food, though. Thus, the hypothetical Canthan Elder Dragon, or at least its minions, would still see civilisations nearby as threats to be destroyed… unless it already views that civilisation as belonging to it.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Additional food for thought:

“Early pre-imperial era? What? That can’t…oh, I’m sorry. Did you need something?”
What are you working on?
“Same as everyone else: the dragons, of course. It’s of critical importance that we find their weaknesses or some clue to what’s happening.”

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Historian_Angelina

Interesting that she would make mention of the Canthan calendar dating system when researching Elder Dragons, isn’kitten

I completely overlooked this! The early pre-imperial era is around 10,000 BE, i.e. the last time the dragons were around, so the Priory looking for clues around that time isn’t massively surprising, but the choice of words certainly is interesting. “Early pre-imperial era” is a term solely associated with the Canthan calendar, making specific reference to the Dragon Empire. An intentional hint from the writers, perhaps?

So what might the scholar be telling us? The Elder Dragons were around in Cantha in their last cycle? Had they not been, we’d expect to see some evidence of pre-Imperial civilizations on that continent. There was the Forgotten, and a possible offshoot of the dwarves, but we have no indication as to whether they date back to before the last cycle.

I think it’s less of a hint to “relation to Cantha” then “relation to the Empire” though – Cantha doesn’t, and most certainly didn’t in the far past, use the Mouvelian calendar. So any Canthan records of the time would be in Early/Middle/Late pre-Imperial era, related to the empire or not.

I think it would be interesting to find out that there are actually “good” elder dragons out there in the world. Possibly related to the saltspray dragons. I think the whole idea of elder dragons being mindless forces of nature is extremely boring, and I like the whole push for them being more intelligent than we originally thought lately.

Also, how cool would it be to find out that the Canthan people’s obsession with dragons lead the dragon empire to excavate, discover, and bind a nearby sleeping elder dragon?

I don’t think they’re mindless. Nothing really even implies that they are. What’s implied is that they’re amoral (aka don’t care about us insignificant ants).

And I think being capable of binding an Elder Dragon would be seriously undermining the whole “epicness” of Elder Dragons, especially if it wakes up. I mean, when they wake they shatter mountain ranges (Jormag) or raise landscapes (Zhaitan). Whatever binds them would have to be stronger/heavier than that – and cannot be magic else the dragon would just eat its prison, lol.

I disagree that they are mindless forces of nature, it is just that they are so much bigger than us that we cannot fully understand them or their motives. I like to think about them as a god (be it the Muslim, Christian, or Jewish God, but not the personified gods such as the Human gods, or greek/roman mythology), a being that we can see/understand bits and pieces of but can never fully understand the complexity of. I think that giving us, the players, more interaction with different types of minions who have different understandings of their “masters” would go a long way for helping to give a “face” to the Elder Dragons.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

False. What we were told is “they are not allied.” This doesn’t mean they’re enemies, it just means they don’t work together.

Though Captain Whiting in Sea of Sorrows does say “this is the time of the Elder Dragons” (paraphrased) so it wouldn’t be odd to consider them as friendly-but-not-allied. The closest to “they’re enemies” we get is if the minions cross each others’ paths, they fight. But given that the Elder Dragons don’t care much on what they do (see here – Jormag doesn’t care that Sons of Svanir kill his female norn icebrood), this doesn’t account to much in regards to hostility between Elder Dragons.

Though I do want to see a battle between two dragon champions.

Don’t the minions openly attack each other if given the chance?

Though my theory about Zhaitan’s appearance was that he used to look like the concept art (The full four legged dragon :P), however battles with the other damaged him to the point of forcing him to absorb and merge lesser dragons to patch damage. Or, that’s one theory I would accept.

We are indeed told that if dragon minions cross each other, they will attack. But if you actually read my full post you’d note that I brought that up specifically.

As for Zhaitan’s appearance, the answer is given in the interview I linked in the post you quoted.

So the “change” is a combination of the earlier concept arts being used to show the player characters’ perspective – what they think Zhaitan looks like after seeing the beast from a far, far distance (thus not seeing the details of its appearance) – as well as weakening the dragon throughout the invasion of Orr. Added in a mix of internal development going from serpentine to traditional european to this eldritch abomination of dragons.

Well, it’s also noticable in the final design (People have posted the model), there was more to him at one point. His one hand looks like a wing merged into his body and the bones turned to claws instead of a claw. A chunk of his outer scales/skin is explicitly dragons merged onto him.

The ‘spines’ flowing behind him give the appearance of once having a body beyond what may be his ribcage.

Considering how Elder Dragons can corrupt other Elder Dragon minions could any Canthan Elder Dragons be corrupted by consuming the Jade Wind tied to Dwayna’s Magic?

We know that the Jade Sea is turning back into water and that the Echovald Forest has new growth coming in yet not how…… Could Elder Dragons be sucking up the magic?

Can anyone imagine a Elder Sea Dragon corrupted into an Elder Jade Sea Dragon?…. Or perhaps even an Elder Forest Dragon into an Elder Stone Forest Dragon?

Urgoz’ origins are unknown as are that of his Wardens(they are called mysterious in the manual). Could he be a Dragon Champion of an Elder Forest Dragon?

Um, they never said dragons could corrupt other dragon minions.

Dwayna’s magic doesn’t corrupt, so I would argue no. Elder Dragons consume all kinds of magic and twists it to their purposes – the only kind of magic that seems exempt is the Forgotten’s magic (which I suspect is due to their ties to the Mists; I further theorize that the gods would thus be immune to corruption for the same reason).

Could an Elder Dragon be sucking up any magic that solidified the Jade Sea/Echovald Forest? Sure, but only if there was residual energy.

Well, I highly doubt that there’d be such in Cantha, given the DSD and Mordremoth respectively, but the mental thought’s rather neat.

Urgoz is a spirit forest. While this doesn’t explain his origins in explicit details, we’re told of such spirits elsewhere, such as the Spirits of the Wild and even Zhu Hanuku (described as a sea spirit). As such I would say no, he is not a dragon champion. Not unless you want to start arguing that the Spirits of the Wild are also dragon champions. Furthermore, Urgoz was not always malevolent – he was driven mad because everything he cherished (the Echovald Forest) was turned to stone in the Jade Wind (same reason the Wardens went mad) – it would be like you lost your entire family right in front of your very eyes, and not by them dying but being turned to stone, never to return to life.

Kalavier.1097:

Um, they never said dragons could corrupt other dragon minions.

In the Crucible of Eternity Subject Alpha uses the powers of 5 Elder Dragons.

Mickey Frogeater.1470:

Kalavier.1097:

Um, they never said dragons could corrupt other dragon minions.

In the Crucible of Eternity Subject Alpha uses the powers of 5 Elder Dragons.

I’m fairly sure Subject alpha is an inquest science experiment and NOT an actual dragon minion.

Plus ingame he only uses three ‘dragon’ themed attacks as I recall.

This is a reply I wrote to another thread:

This has almost definitely been brought up before, but now we have a hypothesis connecting Abaddonian magic and the Dragons, it may be worth thinking about again: we still don’t know what all those crystals from the Searing, which was born from magic said to be similar to that of the Cataclysm, are all about. Kralkatorrik wasn’t designed until long after the Searing crystals, but it’s odd that they gave his corruption (the Dragonbrand) a similar appearance to the Searing crystals, and put them in the same region. Wouldn’t that cause some confusion for new players? Unless, of course, it’s intentional – and the two are related.

Got me thinking, what other examples of “Abaddonian magic” do we know of? The only other examples I could think of was the Jade Wind and the Affliction. Completely transforming and corrupting the landscape like that isn’t too dissimilar to how the Elder Dragons seem to work. Is it worth thinking about?

It is worth thinking about and it would be epic if an Elder Dragon aquired the essence of the Jade Sea and for another Elder Dragon to obtain the essence of Echovald Forest and for both to invade the continent of Tyria from the south.

A race similar to Afflicted resulting from a Disease Elder Dragon would be very similar to Zhaitan though whether that makes it viable or not viable depends on ArenaNet(by the way how many Undead Elder Dragons do any of you think could possibly exist on the planet Tyria?).

Kalavier.1097:

Mickey Frogeater.1470:

Kalavier.1097:

Um, they never said dragons could corrupt other dragon minions.

In the Crucible of Eternity Subject Alpha uses the powers of 5 Elder Dragons.

I’m fairly sure Subject alpha is an inquest science experiment and NOT an actual dragon minion.

Plus ingame he only uses three ‘dragon’ themed attacks as I recall.

Kudu was trying to create a dragon champion (and in turn other dragon minions) that he could control. Subject Alpha was a failed experiment in that Kudu couldn’t control it.

Also, while we only see names for after three dragons (Jormag, Primordus, and Mordremoth), we see him rising Risen and using Risen Tendrils and imprisoning people in purple crystals. So there’s five. Heck, for all we know the Alpha’s Essence may be a tie to the DSD – if one follows the theory that the Scelrite weapons are tied to the DSD.

Tamias.7059:

This is a reply I wrote to another thread:

This has almost definitely been brought up before, but now we have a hypothesis connecting Abaddonian magic and the Dragons, it may be worth thinking about again: we still don’t know what all those crystals from the Searing, which was born from magic said to be similar to that of the Cataclysm, are all about. Kralkatorrik wasn’t designed until long after the Searing crystals, but it’s odd that they gave his corruption (the Dragonbrand) a similar appearance to the Searing crystals, and put them in the same region. Wouldn’t that cause some confusion for new players? Unless, of course, it’s intentional – and the two are related.

Got me thinking, what other examples of “Abaddonian magic” do we know of? The only other examples I could think of was the Jade Wind and the Affliction. Completely transforming and corrupting the landscape like that isn’t too dissimilar to how the Elder Dragons seem to work. Is it worth thinking about?

As I pointed out in that thread there’s very little likelihood of ties to Abaddon with the Searing’s magic, beyond the original cauldron being given to him.

The Jade Wind was caused by Dwayna’s magic being twisted by Shiro’s malevolence. I doubt they’d retcon something established for so long just to add in a dragon (they never retconned anything about the Searing’s origins, since it was just unknown). Furthermore, as I pointed out recently here there is a very big difference between the Jade Wind and Affliction to dragon minions. You only see similiarities when you look at the surface, but dig a foot and you’ll start noticing differences. Just because on the surface there’s some physical alterations doesn’t mean there is similarity. I mean, hell, an elementalist can freeze water – suddenly, Elder Dragon!

You’re starting to sound like the folks who try to connect everything to the Elder Dragons…

Lol… the old “THOSE DRAGON LIGHTHOUSES ARE OBVIOUSLY SLEEPING ELDER DRAGONS!”?

Loved those guys. So crazy.

Indeed their is no need to tie the Jade Sea and Echovald’s petrification to Elder Dragons.

On the contrary we should have the Jade Wind(Dwayna’s Magic twisted by human rage) affecting the Elder Dragons not the other way round.

They can change magic they devour yet are they incapable of having their natures altered?

It would be interesting if they are capable of being altered while sleeping.

Also the notion of Abbadon having the Char use the energies of that “mountain range” in the Blood Legion Homelands holds some weight…. He knows about Glint at least(she’s obviously the one who gave the Crystal Sea it’s name) so he should be able to tell if the Char “mountain range” is magic of the same type as her.

Considering that the Cataclysm is outright said to have had no affect on Zhaitan (to paraphrase Jeff Grubb’s wording: “mere wrinkles in the worlds crust would have no effect on an Elder Dragon”), I would be utterly shocked if the Jade Wind affected a supposed Elder Dragon – let alone for two Elder Dragons to be so close to each other like you brought up (remember that Cantha is much smaller than Tyria).

Also, Glint did not give the Crystal Sea its name – lorewise, we don’t know why the Crystal Sea was called such, I believe; design wise, it would be named after the Crystal Desert, which is called such because it is said the sand is in fact small broken crystals (and we can see some non-broken ones in Elona Reach) – later it’s told that the Crystal Desert even held some of Kralkatorrik’s crystallized blood.

And nothing says that Abaddon intended – let alone ordered – the charr (not char) to use energies from the “mountain range” – or that he knew about Glint, actually.

By the way what origins do you think are associated with Echovald Forest’s Dragon Moss and Shing Jea Island’s Dragon Lilly? Mere coincidence? Just a Canthan breed of Drake(Drakes are considered Dragons in Guild Wars 1) even?

Interesting ones.

They’re certainly plants shaped like dragons rather than being planty dragons, although in itself this could mean they’re descendents of a champion of Mordremoth or something like that. They’re a bit too close to draconic in appearance to write it off as coincidence, particularly since there are other things there that are things that are both dragon-like and something else (dragon turtles, dragon horses in the kirin – as a friend of mine in statistics says, three times is a trend). So it seems that there might be something in Cantha to push things to become more dragon-like.

On the other hand, though, this is not a trend we see with dragon minions. While we don’t know what the origin of the actual dragons such as the Claw, Shatterer, and Tequatl are, dragon minions generally aren’t given draconic features just because – instead, they’re just strengthened (and possibly crystallised, whether ice or rock crystal) forms of whatever they were before, while destroyers seem shaped for efficiency in killing rather than to be related to dragons. The only example I can think of is the Risen Knights receiving dragonlike wings, but that’s done for practicality rather than as any homage to the draconic form. So it doesn’t seem to be the style of the elder dragons to make dragon-like minions, at least below the champion level.

So it looks like there’s something about Cantha that promotes things that are not dragons to become more draconic, but this is not the normal nature of corruption from the dragons. I have a few ideas about what might be going on, but it’s all speculation at this point.

What your theories?

This is mine: The Gods’ Facets(“reflect the nature of the power that the human gods have harnessed”) look like Dragons(they are “tied to the Forgotten”)…. Could the 6 Gods and the Forgotten be the source of the form of Cantha’s Dragons?

The power the six gods obtained likely refers to them drawing power from Zhaitan to strengthen the Bloodstone(s).

My theory is that of there originally being a race of dragons – the first civilization, of which Glint came from (she is said to have “regained” her free will via the Forgotten’s ritual so it is heavily implied she was once flesh and blood), to fall to the Elder Dragons – and I suspect that the Elder Dragons are just Dragon-looking demons, as they honestly look and function akin to Imps (which hold draconic features, are demons from the Mists, and feed off of elemental magic, growing as they consume more magic).

The dragons in Cantha – Kuunavang, Glint, and bone dragons (Rotscale too) included – would be what remains of this ancient first cycle of life in Tyria, when magic was it it’s highest for the most time. Not from the times necessarily, but descendants of survivors – though I’d count Glint from that time given her lines in Edge of Destiny.

There are a few. For instance:

It’s where dragons originally evolved, and thus it’s still where most of their relatives can be found (it may even be deliberately left alone by the ED’s as a form of respect for the homeland).

The Elder Dragon of Cantha has figured out that it is more efficient to get magical power out of cultures in it’s territory by encouraging them to worship it by choice rather than destroying them (like Jormag and the Sons of Svanir, but to a greater degree). Such a dragon, unlike others that simply seek to destroy, might ensure that its minions bear a resemblance to it, to ensure that their actions are linked to it.

Some past generation of Pale Tree (and Urgoz might well be a candidate here) used dragons as a template, similar to how the modern Pale Tree used humans.

There may be other that I’m forgetting, that’s just off the top of my head.

Mickey Frogeater.1470:

A race similar to Afflicted resulting from a Disease Elder Dragon would be very similar to Zhaitan though whether that makes it viable or not viable depends on ArenaNet(by the way how many Undead Elder Dragons do any of you think could possibly exist on the planet Tyria?).

Disease ED would basically steam-roll over all the races, honestly I haven’t seen too much penicillin lying around so a magic immune version of any real would plague… And most likely the minions themselves would probably also be pretty infectious.
As for how many Undead EDs… well firstly we need to have some idea of where EDs draw there power from, and thus if it’s viable for for 2 EDs to have similar powers, then we’d need to know if there are any other EDs. However nothing in lore excludes the possibility (by merit of there not being a lot of lore on the subject), maybe EDs wake up in shifts and for all we know there might be hundreds of EDs below the surface waiting for their alarms to go off.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The power the six gods obtained likely refers to them drawing power from Zhaitan to strengthen the Bloodstone(s).

My theory is that of there originally being a race of dragons – the first civilization, of which Glint came from (she is said to have “regained” her free will via the Forgotten’s ritual so it is heavily implied she was once flesh and blood), to fall to the Elder Dragons – and I suspect that the Elder Dragons are just Dragon-looking demons, as they honestly look and function akin to Imps (which hold draconic features, are demons from the Mists, and feed off of elemental magic, growing as they consume more magic).

The dragons in Cantha – Kuunavang, Glint, and bone dragons (Rotscale too) included – would be what remains of this ancient first cycle of life in Tyria, when magic was it it’s highest for the most time. Not from the times necessarily, but descendants of survivors – though I’d count Glint from that time given her lines in Edge of Destiny.

I actually had a similar idea. What if the Elder Dragons were at one point no different then others, but as time passed they became more powerful and started dominating their fellows. So the champions we see are essentially the remnants of the ‘sub-species’ of dragons of the area (or that were around a specific one)

So now Tequatl instead of being just a dragon, he was perhaps one of the first to fall to Zhaitan, etc.

Though, nit-picking (not to you, to others)… Isn’t Zhaitan the elder dragon of decay, not undeath?

I would argue that Zhaitan is more of an Elder Dragon of Decay, rather than undeath. He’s called death/undeath because of his corrupting seemingly-only corpses. But as we learn throughout gameplay, he can corrupt living beings, plants, and landscapes. And everything about him is poison, decay, rotting – corpses corrupted are instantly turned into rotten husks no matter how well preserved (unlike actual undead, where the state of decay is unchanged).

Exactly my point. He’s more decay then undeath. Why one of my theories about his appearance is his form literally decayed to that point.

For what its worth, eastern and western dragons in Earth mythology were always very different. Western dragons were reptilian, much like drakes. Eastern dragons are more serpentine, and have fish-like characteristics (in some legends, carp could grow into dragons.)

undead != risen (the major reason I don’t think Zhaitan acted on his own)

Most of the Risen were Vizier Khilbron’s Undead corrupted by Zhaitan.

Is this what your refering to? Are you implying that Zhaitan just stole the Undead Lich’s abilities and combined it with his Death nature?

Actually, few if any of the risen were Khilbron’s undead. While it’s said in the Prophecies manual that the Orrian islands are inhabited by the wandering dead, this is set between pre-Searing and the rest of the game, and doesn’t attribute to the undead’s invasion of Orr. Given that we see undead with similar skills and names to those in Prophecies during Eye of the North near Kryta but scattered, it’s unlikely they returned to Orr. Most Orrian risen we see in GW2 are the peasants, nobles, other non-militants, and the ancient dead (Zhaitan went tomb raiding), while most Orrian undead we see in GW1 appear to be the “modern military.”