Guild Wars 2

Tachenon.5270:

Obsidian.1328:

One thing that strikes me as interesting is how “magic” is treated and portrayed in GW2 in the first place.

It used to be a mystical and mysterious force, flowing in and out of the daily lives of Tyrians. Yet now it seems like the writers have tried to quantify and classify it, changing more into a “science” than anything else. I get that they were trying something new, evolving 250 years into the future to a more “enlightened” understanding of the physical would. But I think that was a bad decision.

It’s supposed to be a fantasy-genre game, not a play on real-world Enlightenment principles. Where’s the mystery?

Well, at least we don’t have midi-chlorians. Yet.

LOL, I almost used that as an example. Cereally!

In real life earth period around the sun change over time. This change is both cyclical and random. Earth’s orbit is affected by gravitational pull by all other astronomical bodies like planets, moons, comets, belts of planetoids beyond our solar system, and other star systems and distance galaxies. Earth’s axial rotation have also changed over time. Earth used to rotate faster on its axis than it is now. That means instead of 24 hours day we had like less than 20 hours day. This is relational to the distance between the moon and the earth. When our moon were closer to our planet, earth rotated faster. Therefore in Tyria’s case changes in annual days and hours in a day are perfectly rational when you have the knowledge to suspend disbelieve and to accept the plausibility.

Aradusm.6420:

Humans or any other race can become gods by acquiring vast knowledge and power overtime. I figure pre-guild wars era was filled with unchecked magic, humans, and other extinct races due to the elder dragons. Human “gods” were humans who achieved the pinnacle of magic, ascended into their god state. This was something we saw happen with our eyes, we saw Kormir ascend to being a Goddess due to obtaining all of Abaddon’s knowledge and power. She became the sixth god, goddess of truth, knowledge, and secrets.

So I understand that human gods were created through pinnacle of knowledge and power, I guess six people reached that power before the elder dragons awaken. Before the other races could have the chance, this leads to the concept of gods and goddess being placed in Human lore. It is pretty much a state that any race can obtain, just it is now almost impossible thanks to the elder dragons consuming magic and the bloodstones limiting the magic.

I doubt the human’s gods or goddess have diminished in power. They their role has just been more clarified for us to understand they really never really had full control over our fates or destinies, they just been a instrumental role in helping protect humans by giving them knowledge and power, but that knowledge was lost over the span of 250 years, allowing the other races to catch up to humans who were temporarily the strongest race in Tyria. It is pretty much the dawn of equality since every race has accumulated vast knowledge and power that makes them equals in their own way.

There still so much the six main races doesn’t understand, knowledge that they can’t obtain anymore and power that exceeds the amount of magic in the world today. Magic is still a mystery and how the world around them isn’t still clarified. Look at the Asura experiments, they are not absolute and yield unsuspecting results that wasn’t thought to exist before.

I disagree with some of that. The gods came from another world, bringing humans with them, did they not? The way the first game played out, the humans were brought to an uncivilized world to populate and flourish. There were a few exceptions, like the Charr, Tengu, and Centaurs, that had an inkling of an advanced society at the time.

I also don’t think magic is all that mystical anymore. Asuran experiments are unpredictable not because of magic’s mystery, but rather the uncanny tendency of Asurans to not understand what they are doing and blow their labs up in the process lol.

Except that we are explicitly told that the Gods came from a different place, not Tyria before the ED had awakened in one of their cycles.

Avariz.8241:

In real life earth period around the sun change over time. This change is both cyclical and random. Earth’s orbit is affected by gravitational pull by all other astronomical bodies like planets, moons, comets, belts of planetoids beyond our solar system, and other star systems and distance galaxies. Earth’s axial rotation have also changed over time. Earth used to rotate faster on its axis than it is now. That means instead of 24 hours day we had like less than 20 hours day. This is relational to the distance between the moon and the earth. When our moon were closer to our planet, earth rotated faster. Therefore in Tyria’s case changes in annual days and hours in a day are perfectly rational when you have the knowledge to suspend disbelieve and to accept the plausibility.

“suspension of disbelief”

That’s exactly what I’m talking about.

When you TC RPers(or anyone else) do your thing out in the PvE digitalscape, do you really try and make the world of Tyria adhere to the laws of physics? The whole idea behind fantasy is a suspension of disbelief. Why would you try to dissect the chemical reactions behind fireballs shooting out of your hand? Or the quantum physics involved in shadowstepping?

We like fantasy because of its unreal possibilities, not in spite of them.

Obsidian.1328:

“suspension of disbelief”

That’s exactly what I’m talking about.

When you TC RPers(or anyone else) do your thing out in the PvE digitalscape, do you really try and make the world of Tyria adhere to the laws of physics? The whole idea behind fantasy is a suspension of disbelief. Why would you try to dissect the chemical reactions behind fireballs shooting out of your hand? Or the quantum physics involved in shadowstepping?

We like fantasy because of its unreal possibilities, not in spite of them.

Suspension of Disbelief doesn’t mean accepting every bit of information thrown at you, regardless of how ridiculous or contradictory. Indeed, there is a term alternately called ‘Secondary Belief’ or ‘Relative Realism’ which encompasses the idea of internal consistency within a fantasy world. When something breaks with that consistency, belief in the world starts to crack and instead of being immersed in the world, you become an outsider, looking at the flaws and cracks over a pretty surface.

Okay, I got on here and was super excited to see that there was an actual dev response in the lore forum! I was also super excited to see it was in here and it was a friendly response (compared to the relative nasty mood thus far). I personally found the information given by Angel to be very useful in further understanding the past. I do not honestly know where the conversation on this topic is now, because I did not want to read all of the wall-o-text responses (I think I stopped after 30 minutes of reading). But I find the information given to be in line with lore, and to make a lot of sense with piecing together the questions of the past.

Plausible reason for change in annual days and daily hours of Tyria from 250 years since GW1 based on earth’s own phenomena change in annual days and daily hours. As earth’s changes are due to gravitational effects on earth’s rotation and ecliptic orbit, the same phenomena could be happening to Tyria. From historical lore we know the great landmass of Orr has risen. This certainly would have a gravitational effect on the rotational and elliptical orbit of Tyria. Great ocean waves were created that spanned the world. This too is an indication of gravitational effects on Tyria rotation and ecliptic orbit. Such a rational is internally consistent with Tyria’s historical lore.

Not only the above we also know other major tectonic shifts have occurred such as when Krakatoric flew south creating a long mountain range and rift (the brand). Other dragons have also shifted like Jormag and his glacial mass moving down from the pole going south covering the northern continental plates. All these mass movement would no doubt have gravitational consequence and hence changes in Tyria’s axial rotation speed and ecliptic orbit.

Safer Saviour.9685:

Obsidian.1328:

“suspension of disbelief”

That’s exactly what I’m talking about.

When you TC RPers(or anyone else) do your thing out in the PvE digitalscape, do you really try and make the world of Tyria adhere to the laws of physics? The whole idea behind fantasy is a suspension of disbelief. Why would you try to dissect the chemical reactions behind fireballs shooting out of your hand? Or the quantum physics involved in shadowstepping?

We like fantasy because of its unreal possibilities, not in spite of them.

Suspension of Disbelief doesn’t mean accepting every bit of information thrown at you, regardless of how ridiculous or contradictory. Indeed, there is a term alternately called ‘Secondary Belief’ or ‘Relative Realism’ which encompasses the idea of internal consistency within a fantasy world. When something breaks with that consistency, belief in the world starts to crack and instead of being immersed in the world, you become an outsider, looking at the flaws and cracks over a pretty surface.

Yes!

Internal consistency within that world! Changes should stay consistent to the overall foundation of the fantasy world it was created in, not the real-life world. What GW2 has effectively done is create a new Tyria on top of the old that breaks that continuity between the two, and immersion suffers.

Ohoni.6057:

The only difference between a god and a “powerful wizard” is the amount they’re worshiped. The Grawl have plenty of “gods” that are just poorly made statues. There’s nothing inherently untouchable about a character being a “god,” and from what I understand of GW continuity, even human characters have been elevated to godhood in the past. Being a “god” in Tyria just seems to be about immortality, lots of magical power, and some level of dimensional freedom. They are the “gods” of the humans because the humans choose to worship them […]

There’s a fine difference between a god, and a false god. The grawl don’t worship actual gods – just things they find which are stronger or more magical than themselves.

The power of the Six Gods cannot be destroyed, it can change vessels, but that power is indestructible and eternal. That’s what makes a god such a thing in he Guild Wars universe. They are capable of actions far more than any mortal, they rule over the afterlife; though they are killable and fallable. Kill a powerful wizard, and nothing happens in most cases. Kill a god, and unless a new one takes its place, then the entire world and then some gets blown up by their immortal power. There must always be Six Gods, even if who those gods are changes.

zaxziakohl.5243:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Reason for calendar change ~snip

So your problem here isn’t that it’s being changed, but that you know why. As long as it makes sense in the lore it doesn’t really matter why.
Mismatched dates: Christmas:
[…]
The way events are hosted is based more on practicality than the lore. Lets face it, if Scarlet is going to attack a map, she’s wouldn’t do it on the hour every hour. To make sure all can access the content, some continuity of the story is lost. That’s how it goes. If you don’t want to know the reasons behind it, don’t look for them.

A few notes:

1) Wintersday is the Tyrian New Years. While it incorporates aspects of Christmas for us, it is far from the same. And yes, I know that our own historical new year celebration has changed, due to a change in calendars (switching to the Gregorian calendar, for example), but that wasn’t changed. My statement about Wintersday isn’t that it’s not celebrated on the day it should be…

It’s the fact that Angel was wanting to sync up the Gregorian and Mouvelian calendars and the rate of time in both Tyria and us, but failed to realize that in order to do this, Wintersday must be celebrated – by us – in mid-March, since we celebrate it with our Christmas/New Years, but it is in lore the Tyrian New Year – and lore has it established that the Mouvelian calendar begins at the Spring Equinox.

Any and all real-life examples of how we treated our calendar is irrelevant, so stop bringing them up please. The issues your trying to eleviate are not a case of the calendar’s lore-related changes, but the interaction between game and reality’s timeframes.

2) No, the issue is not only that I know why it happened. It was how it was done. As I have explained time and time again. That 1) it was blatant retconing, 2) done in a kitten means (again, doesn’t account to all lore on the calendar for syncing the two calendars up; let alone the mechanics like how the day-night cycle goes is on a 4 hour cycle), and 3) ignores things known by players that are able to be found out within a minute of searching – if they intend to retcon something, they need to ensure it doesn’t conflict with something else unless it’s meant to conflict with that something else – and in this case, I highly doubt that it was meant to.

3) “The way events are hosted is based more on practicality than the lore.” Exactly my point! The events have been hosted on practicality and reasonability for us. But Angel wants to sync up the calendars, and added 5 days to the Mouvelian calendar just to do such. But in order to properly sync up the calendars, then the events should be hosted based on lore rather than practicality. Otherwise, it just isn’t a proper syncing up of the two calendar like they want. They want our years to be the same length, progressing at the same time. Meaning that our spring and the Tyrian spring begins and ends at the same time.

4) It’s got nothing to do with me not wanting to know the reasons behind things, by the way. If that was the case, then I indeed wouldn’t be looking for them.

zaxziakohl.5243:

Have you stopped to listen to the randomNPC convos? There are references to the past and old lore. -snip-

Again, not what I was talking about. Either I’m really terrible at saying what I mean, or you’re constantly side-tracking my points for whatever reason or by whatever cause.

I’m not talking about references to the old lore or what-have you. I’m talking about how they (the developers) are downplaying the gods’ importance so much.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Ohoni.6057:

The only difference between a god and a “powerful wizard” is the amount they’re worshiped. The Grawl have plenty of “gods” that are just poorly made statues. There’s nothing inherently untouchable about a character being a “god,” and from what I understand of GW continuity, even human characters have been elevated to godhood in the past. Being a “god” in Tyria just seems to be about immortality, lots of magical power, and some level of dimensional freedom. They are the “gods” of the humans because the humans choose to worship them […]

There’s a fine difference between a god, and a false god. The grawl don’t worship actual gods – just things they find which are stronger or more magical than themselves.

I think there is a little more to it than just that. Yes, we see that a mortal can become a god by claiming their power… but it’s not just a big well of power for the taking. When Kormir took Abaddon’s power, she didn’t just have a lot of power that she could do whatever she chose with – she became the God(dess) of Knowledge, just like her predecessor. Furthermore, given her history that lead to that (seeking knowledge), it’s possible that that power can’t be taken by just anyone – it has to be taken by someone that values knowledge, which is why Kormir got it and Joe Random PC didn’t.

Essentially, there seem to be six mantles of godhood (that we know of) – Life, Death, Competition, Nature, Inspiration and Knowledge. Five of those are held by members of the Six, while the state of Death is a little more obscure – technically, it’s still held by Dhuum, but Grenth is able to “fake it” as long as Dhuum remains imprisoned. It’s unclear whether Grenth actually has a seventh of his own, or whether his claim to godhood comes purely from siphoning off Dhuum’s power.

Basically, what distinguishes the gods over a group of incredibly powerful wizard is that each of the gods represents something – and they do seem to be connected to what they represent at some fundamental level.

War* not Competition, and Lyssa’s facet isn’t exactly clear cut, so I wouldn’t put it as Inspiration per se (she’s called the goddess of beauty alone, so I’d be more inclined to put her as Beauty than Inspiration – then again, the twin nature of her may allow her to be of two aspects/mantles that are similar).

About Dhuum, I wouldn’t be so quick to say that he still holds the mantle of godhood. We aren’t exactly clear why he couldn’t be killed or why he’s able to still hold power – in a way, you could argue that he couldn’t be killed because he’s a lich (he’s a full blown skeleton in GW1), though that would be demeaning Grenth’s ability as a god of death. It may also be that because Grenth was a demi-god in the first place, that he couldn’t fully take over the mantle of godhood.

Grenth’s nature in of itself is a peculiarity to the whole six mantles bit – did a new mantle get born, or was he no different than a powerful mortal like Oswald Thorn?

^At least we know they have thought at least a little about subjects like Grenth, being as the whole lore on him being a Demi-God comes from GW2, and not GW1. I’m just hoping that they plan on filling out these new pieces of lore they added to the game.

There’s a fine difference between a god, and a false god. The grawl don’t worship actual gods – just things they find which are stronger or more magical than themselves.

Their gods are no more “false gods” than the humans’, the Grawl gods are just a lot weaker (in most cases entirely useless), but even so they’re just as much “gods” because they have worship. The Human gods aren’t on some unreachable tier, we know that normal humans can become gods under the right circumstances, and we know that they can be stripped of their powers and killed. The human gods are just humans that have obtained immortality and great magical powers.

For the most part, we have no idea how old they are, how long they were alive prior to leading the exodus to Tyria.

The power of the Six Gods cannot be destroyed, it can change vessels, but that power is indestructible and eternal.

That doesn’t make the gods themselves all that special though, it just makes their power sources special, a bit like Green Lantern rings. One could argue that the human gods aren’t anything special at all, but that the six “power globs” the contain are vast and irreplaceable artifacts. It’s also possible that more could be created, we just haven’t heard of that happening, or that the power could be destroyed, we just don’t yet know of a way to do so safely (and just killed the god and letting him blow is clearly not the way to do it).

And just because a god claims something, or his followers do, doesn’t mean it’s true. The various gods of death have claimed dominion over death, but we don’t know for certain the extent of that dominion. Necros can control death too, to a limited degree, as can a certain Elder Dragon, so why is it unreasonable to believe that the human death gods are just humans of vast magical power, with a special emphasis in the Necro arts? They can do things no known mortal Necro can do, because they have a much bigger battery to work with and special knowledge and access to the mists, but they have known limits, so why not unknown ones as well?

Ohoni.6057:

Their gods are no more “false gods” than the humans’, the Grawl gods are just a lot weaker (in most cases entirely useless), but even so they’re just as much “gods” because they have worship. The Human gods aren’t on some unreachable tier, we know that normal humans can become gods under the right circumstances, and we know that they can be stripped of their powers and killed. The human gods are just humans that have obtained immortality and great magical powers.

I think you’re under this impression because you’re using the definition of the Abrahamic God for what makes a god.

What makes a god a true god in the Guild Wars universe is what I bolded – their power. Or as drax referred to it – their mantle. While who wields it may change, that power which is wielded is indestructible and unchanging, and the gods – unlike anything the grawl worship (excluding Badazar, aka Balthazar, of course) – are unaging (as far as we know), and are illuminated by their divinity which blinds mortals.

And I want to make it clear: There is NOTHING that says what race any god beyond Kormir is (with Grenth we cannot actually say he is even half-human at least; we just know that his father was a mortal, but what race? Never specified). We do not know what race Dwayna or Melandru – both winged females – are of, or the race that Balthazar, Abaddon, Dhuum, Lyss, Ilya, Menzies, or Abaddon’s predecessor are of. Nothing other than the depictions by humans to give these gods who are known to be capable of altering their appearance (in both age, size (as they are usually larger than giants), gender and – in the case of Abaddon at least, even physical makeup and body corporeality (Abaddon in GW1 is just head and hands; indications tell us he was more humanoid before his fall in Year 0)) indicate to us that they are human.

The “gods” that grawl worship can be anything from a stone that has no magical abilities, to a statue, to a powerful elemental or demon. These are not gods, no more so than mursaat who were merely just an average race no better than the asura.

Ohoni.6057:

That doesn’t make the gods themselves all that special though, it just makes their power sources special, a bit like Green Lantern rings. One could argue that the human gods aren’t anything special at all, but that the six “power globs” the contain are vast and irreplaceable artifacts. It’s also possible that more could be created, we just haven’t heard of that happening, or that the power could be destroyed, we just don’t yet know of a way to do so safely (and just killed the god and letting him blow is clearly not the way to do it).

Except for the fact that they’re not artifacts. It’s best understood if you play through Nightfall, but how I see it, that “power glob” as you call it appears to be little different from their very souls.

I base that off of a few things: gw.dat entries for Nightfall locations indicate that his body was destroyed, yet he was able to regenerate it thanks to Varesh’s rituals (this is why Nightfall could occur at that point in time and not earlier). When Abaddon’s beaten again, his power was going chaotic and risking to do far more destruction than when he was beaten down by the Five Gods – when a soul is killed in Tyria (at least per Guild Wars 1 and Ghosts of Ascalon; the whole repeating dynamic events kind of puts a wrench in that), their soul is sent to the Mists, but when a soul is killed in the Mists… we know nothing of them again (thus far), indicating destruction. By laws of physics, energy cannot simply be destroyed (though it can be turned into a force so minisculely effective it doesn’t contribute to being power for other things); and souls in Guild Wars are treated as that – energy. Thus, when a soul is “destroyed” it would, in theory, just result in dissipation instead – but what would happen to a very powerful soul? It would all release at once, which can be deadly – like how a nuclear bomb acts. Unless it gets contained in something else…

It’s a theory still, but even excluding the theory it shows that the Six Gods are such for far more than just “they’re worshiped and called gods.” They’re not like Yahweh, but then nothing is. And they’re just like polytheistic gods, truth be told – killable, fallable, little different than really old humans who don’t age and have far too much power – power over life, death, creation, destruction, knowledge, war, and so forth. Except unlike the Greek or Norse or Shinto gods, these guys are physically real.

Ohoni.6057:

The various gods of death have claimed dominion over death, but we don’t know for certain the extent of that dominion. Necros can control death too, to a limited degree, as can a certain Elder Dragon, so why is it unreasonable to believe that the human death gods are just humans of vast magical power, with a special emphasis in the Necro arts?

Dhuum cannot be killed. Grenth has tried, and he was a demi-god, born with a power domain himself supposedly (ice and sorrow). This is something that not even Zhaitan can do. The closest thing to being able to do such is a lich, but even they can be killed – you just have to be… creative about it.

Dhuum can control death; Abaddon’s knowledge gets passed down to Kormir. It seems to me that the Six Gods have absolute powers in their own specific mantle/domain – just like humanity claims, according to Kerrsh.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Dhuum cannot be killed. Grenth has tried, and he was a demi-god, born with a power domain himself supposedly (ice and sorrow). This is something that not even Zhaitan can do. The closest thing to being able to do such is a lich, but even they can be killed – you just have to be… creative about it.

Dhuum can control death; Abaddon’s knowledge gets passed down to Kormir. It seems to me that the Six Gods have absolute powers in their own specific mantle/domain – just like humanity claims, according to Kerrsh.

Has there been a lore mention that I have not heard of? Last I had heard there was speculation that perhaps Grenth WOULD not kill Dhuum because of his morals or some such thing. Plus wasn’t one of his attributes judgement? Or am I mixing him up with post “godhood”.

What makes a god a true god in the Guild Wars universe is what I bolded – their power.

But that’s just the thing, you consider them “true” gods because you buy into the kool-aid, as it were. You accept the human-centric viewpoint that their gods are special and better than the gods worshipped by the other races. They are stronger, in some cases, but there’s no definitive evidence that they are in any way more special than just being very powerful beings. If nothing else, they seem to be weaker than the Elder Dragons, at least, so would that make the Dragons gods above gods? How many accounts of the immaculate divinity of the human gods come from those who do not in any way worship them?

are unaging (as far as we know), and are illuminated by their divinity which blinds mortals.

Both of which are just powers. You can be fantastically long lived, or cast a blinding radiance, without being anything more than just someone who has those powers.

And I want to make it clear: There is NOTHING that says what race any god beyond Kormir is

Fair enough. They are the gods of the humans, but may not have started as humans, but we do know that a human can become a god, and that most of them have shown a human-esc form, and that they all came from (or at least visited, I suppose) the human homeworld, so chances are decent that their original race is closer to humans than to the other races of Tyria (although that is far from certain).

The “gods” that grawl worship can be anything from a stone that has no magical abilities, to a statue, to a powerful elemental or demon. These are not gods, no more so than mursaat who were merely just an average race no better than the asura.

And yet they were equally “gods” as the human gods. They were in some ways weaker than the human gods, but in some ways seemingly stronger. They were just a different class. Perhaps lower level, or an underpowered class, but they were still equally gods, in that they attracted worship.

Thus, when a soul is “destroyed” it would, in theory, just result in dissipation instead – but what would happen to a very powerful soul? It would all release at once, which can be deadly – like how a nuclear bomb acts. Unless it gets contained in something else…

Was there a direct and objective indication though that it was his soul that threatened to explode, or was it merely just a layer of magical power, a “boon” if you will, that he had affecting him, and that would rage out of control without a soul to direct it? The latter seems more likely to me, since if it were truly his soul, then why would Kormir not simply be “Abbadon 2.0,” identical to him not only in power, but also in personality? Let’s posit that Abaddon’s soul was destroyed, but without a soul to control it, the power he’d earlier assumed would go wild, as the power was a separate thing entirely from his soul, as a jets fuel tanks might survive the plane’s crash, and then explode.

Dhuum can control death; Abaddon’s knowledge gets passed down to Kormir. It seems to me that the Six Gods have absolute powers in their own specific mantle/domain – just like humanity claims, according to Kerrsh.

Being able to control a thing better than anyone yet seen does not mean that someone better could not possibly come along. Likewise, knowledge passed from one possessor of a power to another does not mean that they are tapped into primal Knowledge, it just means that the power transfer also contained data. There’s no doubt that they possess great power, just that this great power does not place them outside the realm of comparison.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

War* not Competition, and Lyssa’s facet isn’t exactly clear cut, so I wouldn’t put it as Inspiration per se (she’s called the goddess of beauty alone, so I’d be more inclined to put her as Beauty than Inspiration – then again, the twin nature of her may allow her to be of two aspects/mantles that are similar).

I chose those terms quite deliberately, even knowing they didn’y match the common attitudes towards either deity.

Balthazar has shown himself to be interested in various other forms of competition (although he’s not always a good sport about it when he loses!) – so it strikes me as likely that the mantle itself could well be somewhat broader than that. It’s possible that the mantle truly is War, but it’s also possible that it’s something broader, and that Balthazar’s focus on war is simply his take on it (just as Abaddon was the God of Secrets while Kormir is the God of Truth – they’re both gods of knowledge, but they chose to focus on different aspects and use it in different ways).

In Lyssa’s case, just off the bat she’s the twin goddess of Beauty and Illusion. Taken on its own, this means beauty on its own it only half of her (maybe more, but illusions do not need to be beautiful). However, both are, essentially, works of art, particularly visual art. From things like theatre stages and troops being sponsored by Lyssa, it seems she’s associated with performing arts in general – making her more the goddess of the arts in general. The common thread seems to be that she supports things that are inspirational or need inspiration to create, hence why I labelled her mantle Inspiration. I will admit that I’m not sure where chaos fits into this, but that might, like the elemental associations, be something that came about because inspiration is regarded as chaotic.

Ohoni.6057:

What makes a god a true god in the Guild Wars universe is what I bolded – their power.

But that’s just the thing, you consider them “true” gods because you buy into the kool-aid, as it were. You accept the human-centric viewpoint that their gods are special and better than the gods worshipped by the other races. They are stronger, in some cases, but there’s no definitive evidence that they are in any way more special than just being very powerful beings. If nothing else, they seem to be weaker than the Elder Dragons, at least, so would that make the Dragons gods above gods? How many accounts of the immaculate divinity of the human gods come from those who do not in any way worship them?

The exact same comments could be made about pretty much any group of polytheistic gods. The Sumerian gods were running scared of Tiamat and her brood before Marduk took Tiamat down. The Greek gods had the Titans and various other foes. The Six are another polytheistic group of gods – they’re supernatural beings that each have a domain that they’re in charge of, and they can influence people’s lives through how they exercise those domains (although if they have been in the last couple of centuries, they’ve been subtle about it).

More significantly, though, in Tyria the term ‘god’ is essentially defined by the Six. The kodan may disagree, but in human languages at least, the term “god” is defined as “one of the Six, or a being of similar nature to the Six”. Here on Earth, we may have different ideas of what a god may be, but on Tyria, that’s what a god is, just like a dog is a dog even if the dog does not match people’s expectations (a dog with one leg and no tail is still, fundamentally, a dog). Now, at the moment, we really don’t have any idea just WHAT exactly a god is – but when we do manage to narrow it down, the Six are still gods because they define what gods are.

Things like the mursaat and the various things worshipped by the grawl (including, I would say, “Badazar”, since I suspect in that case they’re worshipping the statue itself and not what the statue represents…) are distinctly not gods because they fit in other categories, and do not appear to have any of the properties that we do know are associated with the Six. The category of “elder race”, for instance, or “demon”, or, simply, “rock”.

Terry Pratchett’s Discworld takes this to a logical extent – there, there are gods that are in fact weaker than most mortals, but they are still gods because they are members of the life form classed as ‘gods’. There are also things that are worshiped as gods that are clearly not, even though they are quite powerful.

At the bottom line, though, the Six are gods because they set the standard of what Tyrians call gods. All of the other major races except the norn use that term for them, and all except the sylvari acknowledge they have, or at least had, the powers attributed to them (although they may not agree on the magnitude). They just (apart from humans) choose not to worship them.

Ohoni.6057:

What makes a god a true god in the Guild Wars universe is what I bolded – their power.

But that’s just the thing, you consider them “true” gods because you buy into the kool-aid, as it were. You accept the human-centric viewpoint that their gods are special and better than the gods worshipped by the other races. They are stronger, in some cases, but there’s no definitive evidence that they are in any way more special than just being very powerful beings. If nothing else, they seem to be weaker than the Elder Dragons, at least, so would that make the Dragons gods above gods? How many accounts of the immaculate divinity of the human gods come from those who do not in any way worship them?

I do want to point out that during the time period when GW2 was in development I read multiple time that the Elder Dragons are AT the same level of power as the Six, not that they are above. The lack of influence by the gods could be completely unrelated to the Elder Dragons, such as why the humans left their homeland in the first place, or because of the devastation that could be caused world wide if such a titanic battle were to occur. Similarly, based on what I see in game (this is mostly opinion) the Six seem to be much more powerful than most of the other gods we see in game. It took 4 Spirits of the Wild to slow down Jormag so the norn could move south. The grawl worship rocks, fall in love with harpies, and half the time are under the influence of asura tech. And the “Unseen Ones” (Mursaat) were wiped out by an army of vengeful spirits (Titans) which we, the PC, were able to wipe out ourselves. The “power” behind the mursaat was that they had a single spell that could devastate almost any individual, which was pretty much nullified by infusions by the seers. Otherwise they were very weak and fleshy (Just ask the mursaat in Ice Floe… Oh wait, they’re all dead, lol).

Ohoni.6057:

What makes a god a true god in the Guild Wars universe is what I bolded – their power.

But that’s just the thing, you consider them “true” gods because you buy into the kool-aid, as it were. You accept the human-centric viewpoint that their gods are special and better than the gods worshipped by the other races. They are stronger, in some cases, but there’s no definitive evidence that they are in any way more special than just being very powerful beings. If nothing else, they seem to be weaker than the Elder Dragons, at least, so would that make the Dragons gods above gods? How many accounts of the immaculate divinity of the human gods come from those who do not in any way worship them?

• They have immortal power.
• They have domain over the afterlife.
• They are worshiped by more than just humanity (Forgotten, some centaurs, some Naga (perhaps), some dwarves).
• Go look at ANY polytheistic faith in any mythos, both historical faiths or outright fiction and you will find that the Six Gods differ in only why they are gods. All polytheistic faiths – both real and fictional – feature some older, stronger or equally powerful god-like race. The Greek had the Titans; the Norse had the Vanir (as predecessors); the Celts had generations (many, some lost to us) of god races.
  • Side note: The Elder Dragons rival the gods, not overpower them, as far as we’ve been told. And given Zhaitan’s story, I’d say that the power of an Elder Dragon varies too much to be definitive; at times they’d be far weaker, at times they have a chance of being stronger (overall).
• In the Guild Wars lore, the Elder Dragons are not gods because they lack that immortal power. No other being does. This makes the Six Gods fully unique, even if it just puts them as wielders of unique power, it is because they are wielders of that unique powers that they are true gods.
• The charr acknowledge the Six Gods as gods; as do the asura; as do dwarves who don’t worship them. Perhaps other races too. So to go on point 3 of above, it is more than just human-centric.

Ohoni.6057:

we do know that a human can become a god,

Theoretically, any race can become a god. We don’t really know the requirements for godhood. We just know that it is actual godhood.

Ohoni.6057:

that they all came from (or at least visited, I suppose) the human homeworld,

Actually, we only know three did – Dwayna, Melandru, and Balthazar. Dhuum, Abaddon’s unknown predecessor, and Lyssa’s origins – or even if those four (said 3+Abaddon) even visited or knew about the “human homeworld”

Ohoni.6057:

And yet they were equally “gods” as the human gods. They were in some ways weaker than the human gods, but in some ways seemingly stronger. They were just a different class. Perhaps lower level, or an underpowered class, but they were still equally gods, in that they attracted worship.

No, there weren’t. The only one who can be argued as such would be Badazar, which is just a misspelling of Balthazar.

None of the grawl “gods” are “seemingly stronger” than the Six Gods. Not a single one.

Being a god just because you’re worshiped is a false notion in a fictional setting. Or even a real life religious one. Just because you’re worshiped doesn’t make you a god. It just means you have followers who think you’re a god. There’s a huge difference between being a god and being believed to be a god. And you can’t seem to wrap your head around that concept.

Ohoni.6057:

Was there a direct and objective indication though that it was his soul that threatened to explode, or was it merely just a layer of magical power, a “boon” if you will, that he had affecting him, and that would rage out of control without a soul to direct it? The latter seems more likely to me, since if it were truly his soul, then why would Kormir not simply be “Abbadon 2.0,” identical to him not only in power, but also in personality? Let’s posit that Abaddon’s soul was destroyed, but without a soul to control it, the power he’d earlier assumed would go wild, as the power was a separate thing entirely from his soul, as a jets fuel tanks might survive the plane’s crash, and then explode.

At your Kormir=Abaddon 2.0 question – to quote Kormir herself (part of hte reason I believe such):

The exact same comments could be made about pretty much any group of polytheistic gods. The Sumerian gods were running scared of Tiamat and her brood before Marduk took Tiamat down. The Greek gods had the Titans and various other foes. The Six are another polytheistic group of gods – they’re supernatural beings that each have a domain that they’re in charge of, and they can influence people’s lives through how they exercise those domains (although if they have been in the last couple of centuries, they’ve been subtle about it).

Exactly my point. “Beings of power” is a neutral term, the human gods are clearly beings of power, and they have power greater than the vast majority of forces in the GW lore, but they are “gods” only in that a large number of people worship them, and in this they are no more or less gods than any other deity running around.

Things like the mursaat and the various things worshipped by the grawl (including, I would say, “Badazar”, since I suspect in that case they’re worshipping the statue itself and not what the statue represents…) are distinctly not gods because they fit in other categories, and do not appear to have any of the properties that we do know are associated with the Six. The category of “elder race”, for instance, or “demon”, or, simply, “rock”.

That’s a purely Divine-centric viewpoint though, it may be true for a human researcher who believes in the human gods, but it would not be true of a Norn or Asura, who would place their own spirits or Eternal Alchemy equal to or above the human gods. The term “god” may be defined for humans by its relation to the six Divines, but to those outside their culture, the six human gods may be respected as powerful forces, but they are no more “gods” than any other creature that claims to the term.

Terry Pratchett’s Discworld takes this to a logical extent – there, there are gods that are in fact weaker than most mortals, but they are still gods because they are members of the life form classed as ‘gods’. There are also things that are worshiped as gods that are clearly not, even though they are quite powerful.

But in Discworld there is a very clear force that “what people believe, becomes True.” If even one person believe that the world was created by a pink elephant, then a pink elephant appears out of nowhere to embody that belief, and becomes stronger the more people believe in him. We do not know if this force is in place within Tyria. If so, then again, the Grawl statues would be as much gods as Balthazar. Also, other races calling them “the human gods” does not confer any special privilege on them, it’s just using the term respectfully to what human’s call them, no polite competing term really exists. It’d be no different from a Buddhist referring to the “Christian God” in a theological debate, it doesn’t mean that he has to recognize that god’s divine nature.

Side note: The Elder Dragons rival the gods, not overpower them, as far as we’ve been told. And given Zhaitan’s story, I’d say that the power of an Elder Dragon varies too much to be definitive; at times they’d be far weaker, at times they have a chance of being stronger (overall).

I think that until we have evidence to the contrary, it’s fair to assume that the Dragons are stronger than the gods. I mean, Zhaitan alone dominates Orr, and all their various temples and followers and the such, pretty much at will. And he’s just one dragon. The human gods can push him back, to some extent, but they certainly don’t seem to be equal forces.

None of the grawl “gods” are “seemingly stronger” than the Six Gods. Not a single one.

I was speaking more broadly of the other “deities” of Tyria, which includes the Mursaat, the Dragons, the Spirits, etc. Clearly the inanimate statues got nothin on the human gods, but against many other forces the human gods did not seem capable of dealing with them without human support.

Absolute control over something cannot be surpassed. Otherwise it isn’t absolute.

But we don’t know for a fact that their power is in any way absolute. It has been tested, and succeeds, that is not proof of being absolute. I mean, say I take a 2in thick titanium plate, and tell you it’s “unbreakable.” I could punch it, nothing happens (aside from maybe breaking my hand). I could hit it with a stick, or with a bone, or with a copper rod, or a steel sword, or with all sorts of tough materials, and it would bounce them all right back, completely “unbreakable” as near as I can tell. But then I fire a uranium round at it, and it punctures. The human gods are clearly powerful and have great control over the forces they claim to, but that doesn’t mean that a more powerful force could not potentially match or exceed their powers. I mean, Grenth may claim dominion over the dead, but clearly he can’t just shut Zhaitan down in his tracks.

Ohoni.6057:

Things like the mursaat and the various things worshipped by the grawl (including, I would say, “Badazar”, since I suspect in that case they’re worshipping the statue itself and not what the statue represents…) are distinctly not gods because they fit in other categories, and do not appear to have any of the properties that we do know are associated with the Six. The category of “elder race”, for instance, or “demon”, or, simply, “rock”.

That’s a purely Divine-centric viewpoint though, it may be true for a human researcher who believes in the human gods, but it would not be true of a Norn or Asura, who would place their own spirits or Eternal Alchemy equal to or above the human gods. The term “god” may be defined for humans by its relation to the six Divines, but to those outside their culture, the six human gods may be respected as powerful forces, but they are no more “gods” than any other creature that claims to the term.

And this is where you’re wrong. You see, norn view the Six Gods and Spirits of the Wild to be on par; Eternal Alchemy is not a deity but a concept so it isn’t in the same category as any other deity (nor should it be) by either asura or human; and humans count the Spirits of the Wild as gods.

However, the things grawl worship as well as other similar things, like the mursaat, are not gods. Even if they’re worshiped as gods, that does not make them so.

Ohoni.6057:

I think that until we have evidence to the contrary, it’s fair to assume that the Dragons are stronger than the gods. I mean, Zhaitan alone dominates Orr, and all their various temples and followers and the such, pretty much at will. And he’s just one dragon. The human gods can push him back, to some extent, but they certainly don’t seem to be equal forces.

“Because we do not have conclusive evidence, we should presume the situation is one specific outcome, rather than other implied possibilities.” This is your argument, given all the facts. And it is flawed.

As Narcemus said, in early pre-release reveals of the lore around the Elder Dragons, they were repeatedly stated to “rival the Six Gods” – never overpower.

So Zhaitan lifted a peninsula. Big deal. Balthazar burned that same peninsula to a crisp (and then some), and Melandru took that crisp and made it a verdant landscape. Though Shiro Tagachi, Abaddon used Dwayna’s power to solidify an entire inland sea and a huge forest (both the size of Orr on its own). And Zhaitan can control the magical flow of a few statues within his territory – the gods do that from across the Mists to statues in three separate continents.

Zhaitan has not one-upped the gods in any way.

Ohoni.6057:

I was speaking more broadly of the other “deities” of Tyria, which includes the Mursaat, the Dragons, the Spirits, etc. Clearly the inanimate statues got nothin on the human gods, but against many other forces the human gods did not seem capable of dealing with them without human support.

The mursaat hold nothing on the Six Gods. See above regarding the Spirits of the Wild and of the Elder Dragons.

Ohoni.6057:

But we don’t know for a fact that their power is in any way absolute. It has been tested, and succeeds, that is not proof of being absolute. […] I mean, Grenth may claim dominion over the dead, but clearly he can’t just shut Zhaitan down in his tracks.

You’re arguing about unknowns and unprovables. You cannot prove that something can kill Dhuum, when even a demi-god couldn’t (or the heroes who killed a different god, and aided by the spirits of those who helped Grenth defeat Dhuum, couldn’t either).

Grenth shutting Zhaitan down is irrelevant if you’ve been listening, since Dhuum still lives and thus would have his power still – Grenth was originally representing mortality, ice, judgment and sorrow. Dhuum is attributed with Death. While their domains are similar – should Grenth have that kind of “indestructible power” the gods do – he wouldn’t be able to prevent undeath with a wave of his fingers – unlike Dhuum supposedly could, given how when Dhuum wasn’t imprisoned, he disallowed resurrection and undeath.

Narcemus.1348:

Has there been a lore mention that I have not heard of? Last I had heard there was speculation that perhaps Grenth WOULD not kill Dhuum because of his morals or some such thing. Plus wasn’t one of his attributes judgement? Or am I mixing him up with post “godhood”.

Since I missed it before:

“You see, Dhuum was not fully destroyed; Grenth was simply not powerful enough to slay him.”
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Something_Wicked_This_Way_Comes

What we’ve been told so far tells us that Grenth tried but couldn’t kill Dhuum.

And this is where you’re wrong. You see, norn view the Six Gods and Spirits of the Wild to be on par; Eternal Alchemy is not a deity but a concept so it isn’t in the same category as any other deity (nor should it be) by either asura or human; and humans count the Spirits of the Wild as gods.

The Eternal Alchemy is a religion, it’s just a religion practices by rationalists, so they don’t call it that. Still, it’s a belief in a higher power, perhaps not conscious, but it does seem to imply a guiding influence on the world, more akin to Karma.

However, the things grawl worship as well as other similar things, like the mursaat, are not gods. Even if they’re worshiped as gods, that does not make them so.

Who decides that? The Grawl believe it is so. Because the humans and norns do not believe that their gods are legitimate, they are not? Who is the ultimate arbiter, within the lore, of who objectively counts as a god, and who does not?

“Because we do not have conclusive evidence, we should presume the situation is one specific outcome, rather than other implied possibilities.” This is your argument, given all the facts. And it is flawed.

I think that given the evidence we do have, it is the most reasonable assumption to make in the situation.

As Narcemus said, in early pre-release reveals of the lore around the Elder Dragons, they were repeatedly stated to “rival the Six Gods” – never overpower.

“Rival” is a neutral term, it does not confirm that they are stronger, but neither does it deny it.

So Zhaitan lifted a peninsula. Big deal. Balthazar burned that same peninsula to a crisp (and then some), and Melandru took that crisp and made it a verdant landscape. Though Shiro Tagachi, Abaddon used Dwayna’s power to solidify an entire inland sea and a huge forest (both the size of Orr on its own). And Zhaitan can control the magical flow of a few statues within his territory – the gods do that from across the Mists to statues in three separate continents.

The point is not that the achievement’s Zhaitan’s had are greater than the ones they have done, and his power is clearly rooted in one element so he would not have the same variety that they do; the point is that Zhaitan is marking his territory all over theirs, and there doesn’t seem to be anything they can do about it. There are small cases where the gods are shown capable of reclaiming a very small portion of their hold on their own home turf, but only with significant mortal help. If each god were supposed to be equivalent in power to each dragon, you would think that the gods would be perfectly capable, and perfectly well motivated, of driving Zhaitan out of Orr entirely on their own.

You’re arguing about unknowns and unprovables. You cannot prove that something can kill Dhuum, when even a demi-god couldn’t (or the heroes who killed a different god, and aided by the spirits of those who helped Grenth defeat Dhuum, couldn’t either).

Again, just because A can’t defeat B, doesn’t mean that C cannot. Maybe the players just didn’t have the right Kryptonite for the job. Dhuum is clearly very good at not dying, better than Grength’s ability to kill, but that’s no proof that killing him is entirely impossible. It’s very hard to prove that something is impossible.

“You see, Dhuum was not fully destroyed; Grenth was simply not powerful enough to slay him.”
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Something_Wicked_This_Way_Comes

What we’ve been told so far tells us that Grenth tried but couldn’t kill Dhuum.

But it also says that he was not powerfully enough to slay Dhuum, which implies that there Is a power level, in theory, that would be enough. If the intent was that Dhuum could not possibly be killed by an outside force, then the appropriate phrasing would have been “Dhuum was not fully destroyed, as he could not possibly be killed by any force.” All that does is reinforce Grenth’s limitations, not indicate Dhuum’s lack of them.

Ohoni.6057:

The Eternal Alchemy is a religion, it’s just a religion practices by rationalists, so they don’t call it that. Still, it’s a belief in a higher power, perhaps not conscious, but it does seem to imply a guiding influence on the world, more akin to Karma.

No, it’s the belief that all things work together. It’s just basically saying “all things are connected” and it’s the study of such. It’s not a higher power.

Ohoni.6057:

Who decides that? The Grawl believe it is so. Because the humans and norns do not believe that their gods are legitimate, they are not? Who is the ultimate arbiter, within the lore, of who objectively counts as a god, and who does not?

The developers decides that.

In a more serious aspect – the very nature of what’s worshiped decides it. It’s got ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with views on beings. This seems to be the fact you cannot step beyond. It deals with what the beings are themselves.

Just believing something is a deity doesn’t make that something so. And you’ve been arguing the Six Gods are only gods because humans (and others) believe them to be deities. But that’s not why they’re gods, but you seem to be too dense to listen otherwise, despite me stating this in different words time and time again.

Ohoni.6057:

I think that given the evidence we do have, it is the most reasonable assumption to make in the situation.

You do realize that your “most reasonable assumption” not only outright ignores a developers’ comment, but also ignores the actions of the Six Gods – both on an individual and combined scale.

Ohoni.6057:

The point is not that the achievement’s Zhaitan’s had are greater than the ones they have done, and his power is clearly rooted in one element so he would not have the same variety that they do; the point is that Zhaitan is marking his territory all over theirs, and there doesn’t seem to be anything they can do about it. There are small cases where the gods are shown capable of reclaiming a very small portion of their hold on their own home turf, but only with significant mortal help. If each god were supposed to be equivalent in power to each dragon, you would think that the gods would be perfectly capable, and perfectly well motivated, of driving Zhaitan out of Orr entirely on their own.

So if a thief breaks into a house and defiles the house after the owners have abandoned it, that thief is now more powerful than the owners of the house?

Because that’s exactly what you’re claiming, just on a more real-life level. The Six Gods have left, they’re not paying attention to the world or its events. And Zhaitan’s just using what they left behind for his own goals.

They don’t drive Zhaitan out because they are not present.

Ohoni.6057:

ut it also says that he was not powerfully enough to slay Dhuum, which implies that there Is a power level, in theory, that would be enough. If the intent was that Dhuum could not possibly be killed by an outside force, then the appropriate phrasing would have been “Dhuum was not fully destroyed, as he could not possibly be killed by any force.” All that does is reinforce Grenth’s limitations, not indicate Dhuum’s lack of them.

I highly doubt that ArenaNet is so careful in their vocabulary and syntax to watch out for such semantics.

Besides, ArenaNet likes leaving doors open, so they avoid absolutes when possible. For example, the absolute that the Elder Dragons are either weaker or more powerful than the Six Gods.

No, it’s the belief that all things work together. It’s just basically saying “all things are connected” and it’s the study of such. It’s not a higher power.

I see it being on the same fundamental level as the Weave in WoT, or the moral balance of certain eastern religions. An Asuran might disagree with that interpretation, but it does seem to have some level of direction to it.

The developers decides that.

But you’re arguing with the developers. The developers decide what the Truth is, but what they tell us isn’t necessarily that Truth. Are you aware of the concept of the unreliable narrator?

Just believing something is a deity doesn’t make that something so.

Yes it does. It doesn’t grant them any additional power (beyond what influence they might have over their follower’s actions), but the distinction between a god and a not-god is that the god has followers. A being of nigh-omnipotent powers is a being of nigh-omnipotent powers whether he’s a god or not, but a god is only a god because he has followers, and is only a god so long as he has followers, and remains a god even if he has no power at all, so long as he has those followers who accept him as a god.

Now, I’m not saying that the human gods’ powers exist only as a result of their worship, although this is a possibility. It’s equally likely that they would remain just as absurdly powerful whether the humans even remembered them or not, and it’s also unclear within the GW cosmology which came first, the gods, or belief in the gods, but given certain events the former seems more likely.

Just believing something is a deity doesn’t make that something so. And you’ve been arguing the Six Gods are only gods because humans (and others) believe them to be deities. But that’s not why they’re gods, but you seem to be too dense to listen otherwise, despite me stating this in different words time and time again.

So again, who, within the lore of the game, has determined that these beings are gods, regardless of their worship? Who has said “these beings are unique and special, more important than other similar beings, and not merely powerful beings that the humans regard as gods?”

You do realize that your “most reasonable assumption” not only outright ignores a developers’ comment, but also ignores the actions of the Six Gods – both on an individual and combined scale.

Not in any way that I’m aware of.

So if a thief breaks into a house and defiles the house after the owners have abandoned it, that thief is now more powerful than the owners of the house?

I should think that would be obvious. They could only assert their own power by turning the tables on him. And the human gods have clearly not abandoned Tyria, since they still have numerous impacts on the world via various items and human abilities, they just seem to have a much weaker impact on the world than the Dragons currently do.

I highly doubt that ArenaNet is so careful in their vocabulary and syntax to watch out for such semantics.

Maybe, maybe not. I’m not saying that they are confirming my point, merely that the quote you cited does not confirm yours either. If they were being careful about their syntax, then they were supporting my position, while if they were careless about it then they could have meant it in either direction.

Besides, ArenaNet likes leaving doors open, so they avoid absolutes when possible. For example, the absolute that the Elder Dragons are either weaker or more powerful than the Six Gods.

So then it wouldn’t be a conflict with the GW1 lore for, say, the Elder Dragons to be, in fact, stronger than the human gods, and for the human gods themselves to merely be ascended humans (or perhaps humanoid aliens) who have gained a quantity of magical power and knowledge greater than any player human is remotely capable of?

Ohoni.6057:

Yes it does. It doesn’t grant them any additional power (beyond what influence they might have over their follower’s actions), but the distinction between a god and a not-god is that the god has followers. A being of nigh-omnipotent powers is a being of nigh-omnipotent powers whether he’s a god or not, but a god is only a god because he has followers, and is only a god so long as he has followers, and remains a god even if he has no power at all, so long as he has those followers who accept him as a god.

This is like saying that a horse is only a horse if it has a rider. Yes, in some settings, the power of a god comes through having worshippers. We have no idea if that is the case in this one. In fact, evidence seems to point otherwise (in that each god has a core of power, tied to a specific concept, that has made them a god).

Your argument seems to be based on bringing in definitions of godhood from outside sources. A god must be all-powerful? That comes from monotheistic religions. A god must have worshippers? That might be so in the Forgotten Realms, but those monotheistic religions I just mentioned would say that if for whatever reason all their followers died or lost faith, that does not stop them from being a (or, rather, THE) god.

What definition is used by the people of Tyria? It applies to the beings the term was given to in the New Krytan language – the Six Gods – and beings of similar nature. It does not make any assumptions about the beings that it applies to. It does not require the being in question to be all-powerful, nor does it require the being to be worshipped. After all, if we found a horse that did not have a feature normally associated with equinity – maybe the horse is lame and isn’t capable of galloping – this does not stop it from being a horse.

The rocks, demons, and various other things worshipped by the grawl? Are not gods by the Tyrian definition, because they are not beings similar in nature to those that are the reference for that definition.

From what im reading this means that the dragons can never be destroyed or killed. And all the players and characters are just playing by the design of the eternal alchemy

And this is why Scarlet says “how insignificant you really are”, After Scarlet saw the Eternal Alchemy see saw the whole design of the dragons and the pale tree which that.
Everything that the player does is permitted by the Eternal Alchemy.

If the dragons are to die then the character is then quite a significant player in the life of Tyria, which by Scarlet believes otherwise.

After all Elders are defeated Scarlet will be the final villain, Calling it.

A propos Elder Dragons being stronger/weaker than Six. I believe magic consuming dragons are something like Krypronite for magic fueled gods. Is kryptonite stronger than superman? No, it’s just glowing rock. Can it kill him? Very much yes.

Arguing about godhood of the Six is without a point. For lore standpoint they are gods or even Gods. Beside Spirits of the Wild and maybe Great Dwarf there are no other creatures of that power magnitude. Beside that as Konig wrote: Devs said so.
If there is introduced power greater than Six we can argue about their Godhood. Now we don’t have enough information.

Ohoni.6057:

I see it being on the same fundamental level as the Weave in WoT, or the moral balance of certain eastern religions. An Asuran might disagree with that interpretation, but it does seem to have some level of direction to it.

Eternal Alchemy is not a religion nor philosophy per se. Its more like philosophy meeting mathematics meeting theory of everything. Asuras got machines using concepts of Eternal Alchemy.

One last thing. Wasn’t Lyssa called also Goddes of Beauty and Mayhem?

So Dragons are good guys now? And we killed one? But it didnt really die? What? So since dragons are good guys now, we wont kil anymore from now on?

TachyonicRage.4936:

After all Elders are defeated Scarlet will be the final villain, Calling it.

God i frikken hope not. ‘’Mary sue’’ Scarlet is really a bad lore. No guild wars lore fans really liked her because of poor writing. It would suck if she suddenly became a big deal like the dragons and became a part of the history. Let her stay a shi’tty side story character.

… I can’t deal with this.

So you’re double Mass Effecting us.

First: NOTHING FROM GW1 MATTERED EVERYTHING WAS WRONG ENJOY YOUR SCARLET SUE
Second: THE DRAGONS ARE REAPERS

I want Arenanet’s old team back. The writing wasn’t exactly amazing and innovative, but it was good enough for a fantasy RPG and very much enjoyable.
GW2’s story is just extremely unclear and uninspired. Going for the full George Lucas retcon tour doesn’t help it a single bit.
Less of your average tween fanfiction writing, more consistent lore, please. And kill Scarlet off as soon as possible. She’s an abomination unto the lore (Seriously, graduated from ALL THREE Colleges while Asura generally belong to one? I’m calling shenanigans.) like Rox is an abomination unto charr aesthetics.

Does anyone else enjoy taking solid well written lore/backstory and throwing it out the window in return for fanfic bullkitten that makes people (such as myself) flat out not give a crap about living story?

Talk to Arenanet, they seem to be paying people just like you for some reason.

About the avatars of the gods being seen, those skills are just magical representations. None are summoning actual avatars. Only the personal story step features an avatar of the gods.

It’d be like saying the dervish avatar skills in GW1 were Avatars of the Gods (they werne’t; the Avatars of the Gods are actual and specific beings). For example, the Voice of Grenth/Avatar of Grenth (not the skill) is one of the Seven Reapers, who were mortals that Grenth elevated for helping him fight Dhuum. Similar situations are likely for the other gods’ avatars – the souls of mortals elevated to avatar status for service.

>Leaf, Write Typer, and mexay
Wow, it’s like I’m really on the 4chan Guild Wars 2 General thread!

Seriously, I understand your criticisms, but please keep it constructive so the administrators of the forum will not be able to justify deleting your posts, if you want to at least spite them.

Also, sadly, believe it or not, technically it could be said human racial skills are NOT conclusive proof of the Gods. Plus I think the avatars to the gods vanished around the time of the end of Nightfall (thus, why none of the shrines in Eye of the North are capable of calling god avatars, not to mention not being shrines dedicated to them, but GW1 had a very strict and clear “area progession = story and timeline progression”) so no, 99% of the population has not.

Now the prayer and avatar skills are, again, still out of the question because that does not always denote divine magic, people could dismiss it as psychosomatic influence on a regular spell. PC Warriors become notably “Hulk Out” when using Rampage (which may or may not be magic, I suspect it’s due to exposure to Asuran Gamma Rays), Necros transform into liches and… Whatever death shroud is, and Hylek can spit on you to turn to into a pig, among other things.

All of which though have perfectly non-godly explanations. And frankly, I question even the Dervish avatar forms myself sometimes because I wonder why members of the Kournan Army had them when they were clearly working in opposition of the gods in the name of Abaddon. (Plus, it makes it disappointing Kournan Acolyte bosses were, thus, not using things like Avatar of Dhuum, Avatar of Abaddon, or Avatar of Menzies. You just know those forms would have been sweet looking and done something crazy.)

Personally, I think the human, non-elite racial skills are psychosomatic influences on magic. The elite ones though, those are probably something divine at work. There is, of course, no real logic behind this besides the idea that by the time you can unlock elite skills, you managed to impress Grenth, Balthazaar, and Melandru (the three best gods, Dwayna, Lyssa, and Kormir are useless and dumb. Especially Kormir.) enough that they’ve decided to make an investment in your character as a new champion for them in Tyria.

Pity. Here was a good discussion on the nature of divinity in GW, and it all got derailed because someone mentioned Scarlet.

/sigh

@mexay
Insulting a dev on the forums? Really? It’s one thing to question their handling of lore, but insulting them personally? Ya…

Plus, the human elite skills aren’t actual avatars of the gods. They pray to the god of their choosing, and the god leads them strength in different ways. Dwayna heals, Lyssa gives boons and conditions, Kormir cures conditions, Balthazar sends hounds, and Grenth and Melandru empowers the players to take on the shape of one of their servants.

The only avatar of the gods the players can possibly meet is the Reaper of Grenth during the PS.

Erukk.1408:

snip

They have blatantly kitten all over large components of pre-established lore with total disregard for the impacts it has on the story. It is literal tween fan-fiction tier garbage that you would expect from

My point was not that they are actual avatars. I mained a Dervish in Guild Wars 1 and it’s the same concept. The character beseeches/prays to that god for powers and such and they are granted. We regularly see, in-game, the Gods doing work. Sure, not as much as we used to, but it happens. You can still /kneel at the shrine of Grenth in Lornar’s Pass and receive a boon.

Humans can still use magic. That should be proof enough, unless that gets retconned (I actually think it already has) too.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

snip

I understand that, but the principle remains. There is a clear cut, keen belief in the Gods. There are temples and shrines all throughout Divinity’s Reach and clear NPC dialogues all throughout the world about worship of the Gods.

As much as I hate her, Kormir was a human. 250 years, if we look at our world (which Anet often seems to do) is not long enough for something to come close to ‘myth’. Especially something of that significance.

Elric.6971:

snip

I’ll ignore the ‘green-text’ and ‘chan reference, but to an extent I agree with what you’ve said. My issue is mainly that there was core parts of the lore that have been part of the series for over 5 years. FIVE. YEARS… and now ruined.

I was using the reverence of Gods as an example of how out of touch she is with the lore. To give a (possibly) better example, I’ll bring up the schools of Magic.

We have already found how the Blood_stone_ was formed and that it was split into different pieces because of Doric’s request. This has never been retconned until now. She has simple said “No, no. The Gods split the bloodstone for no reason at all. They just did it because. People just don’t pick a second profession because it takes time”

This ignores the fact that in the original Guild Wars you could LITERALLY learn a new profession in a manner of what I assume is days. Nightfall is a perfect example, along with Factions (Prophecies takes a little longer). Sure, with the rise of the dragons and a reduction of magic, it might take a little longer, but it can happen. Look at Guardians. They use Aggression and Protection. Elementalists use Destruction and Protection.

This whole interview is garbage and I refuse to accept it as cannon. I want the Guild Wars 1 writers back.

I think the human racial skills are using divine energy… but it’s not necessarily coming from the gods directly. Lyssa did say, at the end of Nightfall, that “the divinity is within you” – humans might just have enough of that divine spark in them that they can use the various racial skills.

That said, though, there’s no evidence that those skills are common. It’s very rare that we see a human NPC using one, compared to, say, norn animal forms that we see all the time. It’s very likely that, whether the human racials are actually getting power from the gods or whether it’s coming from an internal divine seed, only a small minority of particularly heroic humans are capable of doing so.

draxynnic.3719:

That said, though, there’s no evidence that those skills are common. It’s very rare that we see a human NPC using one, compared to, say, norn animal forms that we see all the time. It’s very likely that, whether the human racials are actually getting power from the gods or whether it’s coming from an internal divine seed, only a small minority of particularly heroic humans are capable of doing so.

This kind of goes back to the issue of “How special is the player”

Sure, we accomplish a lot and can wield powerful magic, but what’s to say a level 2 farmer can’t do the same if he gets to be a level 80 farmer, using powerful gear?

My take is that we aren’t exactly that special, where in Guild Wars 1, we were (we literally Ascended and actually defeated a God)

mexay.3902:

Sure, we accomplish a lot and can wield powerful magic, but what’s to say a level 2 farmer can’t do the same if he gets to be a level 80 farmer, using powerful gear?

Well, let’s look at the facts: pretty much every NPC, even those who are trained militia tend to only attack at a rate of one attack per second. The every player character, regardless of profession can lay between two to three hits with their basic attack alone, and if it is a “one-per-second” attack, it usually possesses a lot of bells and whistles that make it worth the low DPS, I’d say player characters are decently special.

Also, watch an event sometime where NPCs charge a fortification and have no player backup, chances are, they get creamed. (A centaur fort in Kessex hills is a good example), notice how ally NPCs will have the numbers of more than most PC parties.

After the Seraph or whoever get creamed, storm that fortress yourself. Chances are, you will walk through it and over everyone inside with gusto.

This puts the average PC somewhere in the range of “one-man army” special.

Finally, watch in Ashford Plains how charr soldiers, you know, those guys from a quasi-facist race who have built their entire society around military, get their kitten handed to them in one-on-one combat with… Devourers. Not even Flame Legion, but you watch them get their furry tails handed to them by pests and local fauna.

How did they become a powerful nation again?

I’ve gotta agree with leaf to a certain extent on this one, retconning the lore that’s already been established is completely unprofessional, especially when there’s evidence that discounts her claims IN GAME.

In all honesty, it’s a pretty big middle finger to fans of the original game, and the writers or lore associated with it.

And her little short stories have been rather cringe-worthy and poorly written, I might add.

And before people start off about me, or others for knocking on her; criticism is very important to improve, and it’s something that she most definitely needs if this many mistakes are being made, intentional or not.

Elric.6971:

mexay.3902:

Sure, we accomplish a lot and can wield powerful magic, but what’s to say a level 2 farmer can’t do the same if he gets to be a level 80 farmer, using powerful gear?

Well, let’s look at the facts: pretty much every NPC, even those who are trained militia tend to only attack at a rate of one attack per second. The every player character, regardless of profession can lay between two to three hits with their basic attack alone, and if it is a “one-per-second” attack, it usually possesses a lot of bells and whistles that make it worth the low DPS, I’d say player characters are decently special.

Also, watch an event sometime where NPCs charge a fortification and have no player backup, chances are, they get creamed. (A centaur fort in Kessex hills is a good example), notice how ally NPCs will have the numbers of more than most PC parties.

After the Seraph or whoever get creamed, storm that fortress yourself. Chances are, you will walk through it and over everyone inside with gusto.

This puts the average PC somewhere in the range of “one-man army” special.

Finally, watch in Ashford Plains how charr soldiers, you know, those guys from a quasi-facist race who have built their entire society around military, get their kitten handed to them in one-on-one combat with… Devourers. Not even Flame Legion, but you watch them get their furry tails handed to them by pests and local fauna.

How did they become a powerful nation again?

I’m pretty sure that the gap between regular NPCs and PCs is, lorewise, smaller than it is in game. Part of it is that we’re just smarter than the AI – we pull off our stunts through pulling off tricks the AI can’t, if we behaved like the AI, we probably wouldn’t have as much better success than our friendly NPCs do. Consider Destiny’s Edge, for instance – according to the lore they’re hot stuff, in practise they tend to spend most of their dungeon time waiting for a revive.

Another part is simply to let the players be the heroes. ArenaNet wants to make is so that the players are making the difference, so even if lorewise the friendly NPC organisations are actually holding their own more often than not, ANet makes it so they’ll usually lose without PC involvement.

The third part is, I suspect, that is implicitly assumed that, in each player’s play experience, while their PC is the Pact Commander, those other PCs running around are not. Instead, depending on the zone, those other PCs are taking the part of local militaries, mercenaries, lower-ranking Pact members, and so on. So, for instance, if you take the northern Harathi Hinterlands event chain… what we SEE, during more active times anyway, is often a horde of players swarming over everything, and the odd token NPC. I suspect that if we get told the actual lore of those events, though, it’ll turn out that the bulk of the force was Seraph, with a few heroes (you, and maybe your party or guild) lending a hand.

Or to put it another way, the PCs are the bulk of their race’s military power, even if their personal story says they’re not actually a Seraph or that they’re detached from the Legions or whatever. Realistically speaking, the dozens of PCs that are on a map at any given time can’t have all individually gone through the same basic fifteen or less sets of experiences, so from each players self-centric viewpoint, its they who have gone through their personal story, and the other PCs they see could have had backgrounds entirely different from the PS – including being formally part of the military of the region they’re in.

That said, referring back to Elric’s note – it is canon that what the PC does marks them as Someone Very Special from level 2 onwards. The “tutorial” mission, according to the lore, is something that has already lead to them being labelled as one of their race’s heroes.

While, lorewise, characters DO increase in power, the mechanical level of the character is not a direct translation of the power they have in lore (otherwise, you’d have to explain massive differences in the strength of common animals like wolves depending on where they are, and that’s just silly). Lorewise, the difference between the newly-acclaimed Hero of Shaemoor and the level 80 Champion of Orr is probably closer to the difference between them in WvW (when the new Hero of Shaemoor is sidekicked up to 80) than what you’d see if you dragged a level 2 into a level 80 zone without sidekicking and compared them.

Essentially, according to the lore, a level 2 PC is probably already superior to a level 80 NPC who isn’t at least a veteran or higher.. The PCs are special right from the bat.

raahk.2786:

And her little short stories have been rather cringe-worthy and poorly written, I might add.

You do know that Angel isn’t the only one writing those right? I think the last ones she wrote were during July, for the BotFW. The ones with Evon departing and the Zephyrites trek through the Crystal Desert.

I think short stories are welcomed addition. I didn’t like fact that we must search for lore outside the game to know what is going on but I like that they are trying to help us understand the world.

A propos divinity and gods, maybe not much of addition, just my thought in that matter. In advance I’m sorry for drawing a parallel to real world, I myself don’t like such behavior too much. For me Six, final fall of Abbadon and exploits of player characters from GW1 are treated in GW2 world in similar fashion like for example Christianity and first coming of Christ. Some believe it happened, some things it’s just a fairy tale. With one exception. We as players actually saw all of that things happening, we 100% sure of their existence, hell we talked with Six.

It was told few times already, I also think that during story less human-centric creators overcompensated. Humans as loosing race is interesting twist but making them wrong about most of world’s cosmology is a stretch.

Note, all this is sanctioned by Ree and Jeff. They too think this is all ok.

I think there’s a pretty good chance that no race has a complete understanding of Tyrian reality when it comes to Gods and legends. Even the Eternal Alchemy is a nebulous concept that basically says “everything is necessary”. But we have RL philosophies that say the same thing and they provide no more concrete answers than anything else.

So what a-net is basically saying is that with humanity, we were just given their fallible version first in GW1. But without knowing everything, we can’t say they are wrong about most things.

Dustfinger.9510:

I think there’s a pretty good chance that no race has a complete understanding of Tyrian reality when it comes to Gods and legends. Even the Eternal Alchemy is a nebulous concept that basically says “everything is necessary”. But we have RL philosophies that say the same thing and they provide no more concrete answers than anything else.

So what a-net is basically saying is that with humanity, we were just given their fallible version first in GW1. But without knowing everything, we can’t say they are wrong about most things.

I think the problems a lot of people here are having is not the perceptions and deductions made from events by humans 250 years ago but rather that events are being changed to fit a new narrative.

Kyrel.8942:

Note, all this is sanctioned by Ree and Jeff. They too think this is all ok.

o.0

Is that a positive or negative statement?

Obsidian.1328:

Kyrel.8942:

Note, all this is sanctioned by Ree and Jeff. They too think this is all ok.

o.0

Is that a positive or negative statement?

That’s up to anyone to decide, but personally I think positive. At least we know they still have their hands on the lore and know what’s up despite the other writers and lore devs.

Erukk.1408:

raahk.2786:

And her little short stories have been rather cringe-worthy and poorly written, I might add.

You do know that Angel isn’t the only one writing those right? I think the last ones she wrote were during July, for the BotFW. The ones with Evon departing and the Zephyrites trek through the Crystal Desert.

That’s why I mentioned her short stories, and not anyone else’s.