Guild Wars 2

Those stupid cabbage heads! Anyway it’s confirmed Sylvari are dragon minions.

Anet should put character slots on sale so everyone can roll an engineer, equip a flamethrower and burn all these traitor trees down.

So, in other words the most cited, fanfiction-ish and unfounded theory since beta was supposedly one of anet’s story’s greatest mysteries?

I hope that isn’t something the writers are proud of.

I don’t even really know what to say. Just wow. Lame.

Edit because people seemingly don’t like reading multiple pages before quoting a thing they don’t know the context of or aren’t familar with part the background of reactions and emotions towards and against this theory:

ElysianEternity.6215:

Ronin.7381:

ElysianEternity.6215:

So, in other words the most cited, fanfiction-ish and unfounded theory since beta was supposedly one of anet’s story’s greatest mysteries?

I hope that isn’t something the writers are proud of.

I don’t even really know what to say. Just wow. Lame.

Little condescending there. I mean hell, the direction that information pointed in was fairly obvious. Was it really that surprising, truly?

Hm, maybe my disappointment could be interpreted as condescending.
I’m not disappointed in the decision sylvari = minions itself. (Nor do I feel very angry or malicious, just…yeah rather drained and sigh.)
I’m (really really really) disappointed in what the common theory entailed and how it was pushed as surprise and the writing that came with the presentation of this reveal.

Basically, pretty much every dragon minion theory boiled down to ‘the power of friendship and love of the tablet cleansed the pale tree’. Which is totally unfounded in lore, looking at what it took to free Glint. (also hence the fanction-feel)

So while the idea that sylvari are minions itself isn’t unfounded, the common form this theory took on was.

I’m not exactly thrilled with it either, but at least, unless ANet decides to delete my main, they’re not all going to spontaneously turn bad (just, apparently, a large number of them…)

They won’t all be bad :P Caithe says “I am your friend!”, Canach says “We aren’t the enemy!” and then Faolin stabs a human with a spear… Clearly the nightmare is indeed Mordremoth’s calling, and Ventari’s beliefs are NOT the natural sylvari way, and I think that many characters will now be presented a choice. It looks like many races will have factions attempting to exterminate the Sylvari. It will be very interesting to see what happens… but since they’re a playable race, they can’t delete people’s characters!

ElysianEternity.6215:

So, in other words the most cited, fanfiction-ish and unfounded theory since beta was supposedly one of anet’s story’s greatest mysteries?

I hope that isn’t something the writers are proud of.

I don’t even really know what to say. Just wow. Lame.

Unfounded?
The fact that people have been discussing it since beta would suggest that there were indeed things pointing towards it, ergo not unfounded.

Wow look at every single sylvari ever killing every other member of every other race wow you’re right
oh wait

ElysianEternity.6215:

So, in other words the most cited, fanfiction-ish and unfounded theory since beta was supposedly one of anet’s story’s greatest mysteries?

I hope that isn’t something the writers are proud of.

I don’t even really know what to say. Just wow. Lame.

I don’t know, just because player were able to guess it doesn’t mean its bad. Remember the series Lost? You know where the writers were so determined to be smarter than the audience that they purposefully took the series into the most stupidest directs? Yeah, I’d rather ANet not do that.

Mushroomz.4280:

They won’t all be bad :P Caithe says “I am your friend!”, Canach says “We aren’t the enemy!” and then Faolin stabs a human with a spear… Clearly the nightmare is indeed Mordremoth’s calling, and Ventari’s beliefs are NOT the natural sylvari way, and I think that many characters will now be presented a choice. It looks like many races will have factions attempting to exterminate the Sylvari. It will be very interesting to see what happens… but since they’re a playable race, they can’t delete people’s characters!

Well have to wait apparently until the 24th for the Heart of Thorns announcement, but I think that this can have some very interesting consequences lore wise.

They’re playable characters, and if you’ve been doing this season as a sylvari it’s very clear that the sylvari PC are just as unaffected by Mordy as the human PC, asura PC, etc.

The anti-sylvari sentiment, while over a fictional race in a fictional world, is unfounded. Charr tried to wipe out humans, and humans tried to wipe out charr, and I don’t see either of those races as hated as the sylvari, who only boast Canach, Scarlet, and Aerin as characters performing evil acts against members of other races. And Canach is turning over a new leaf (ha ha).

If anything, sylvari suffer more from other sylvari than other races have ever suffered from the sylvari, due to the Nightmare Court.

So yeah. Sylvari hate is unfounded, this doesn’t justify hate just cause people personally don’t like some sylvari.

I wouldn’t say Sylvari hate is unfounded… they kind of came from nowhere, Charr and Humans were on the surface of tyria for a very very long time, had many wars over it. Only once the Elder Dragons started stirring, did the Norn and Asura appear, however, they’re also established races and their origin isn’t completely random and in the middle of existing empires.

Humans aren’t known for potentially snapping and attacking anyone within arms reach of them whether they want to or not, let alone the possibility of corrupting their victims into plant zombies. We sylvari, apparently, are now. I can’t blame the mobs for busting out their torches and pitchforks.

Incidentally, am I the only one who thinks the being overlooking the ruins resembled a mordremed mursaat?

@mushroomz It’s not like sylvari abruptly popped up and claimed half a kingdom. There’s wasn’t anyone living anywhere near the Grove except for some outlying asuran labs. Whatever humans were there had long since left.

Mushroomz.4280:

I wouldn’t say Sylvari hate is unfounded… they kind of came from nowhere, Charr and Humans were on the surface of tyria for a very very long time, had many wars over it. Only once the Elder Dragons started stirring, did the Norn and Asura appear, however, they’re also established races and their origin isn’t completely random and in the middle of existing empires.

So are you talking from a player perspective or an in-world perspective?

From a player perspective I’ve loved the sylvari since they were announced in 2007, the same year that asura and norn were introduced as well.

From an in-world perspective, the sylvari appeared, were attacked by the asura out of ignorance, then went on to contribute helpfully throughout Tyria to various causes.

So yeah, I’d say that sylvari hate is unfounded.

Three major letdowns for meh:

1. No Rytlock yet ;///// I had hoped that we would be duo bad*ss Charr obliterating everything to the rock music.

2. No Cantha, no eastern Tyria, No Elona. Just Maguuma. If it’s as monotonous as Silverwastes, I’m not that hyped.

3. No Tengu? ;///// x2

But hey, better any boxed expansion than crappy Living Story for another year. I just hope that we won’t have to wait half a year after PAX for them to launch it. Since it seems like they’ve been working on this for 2 years already. I’m right, I should be right, ye, ye?

Who am I kidding. I just hope that they will launch it before Christmas ^^.

I See No Tomorrow.7302:

Mushroomz.4280:

I wouldn’t say Sylvari hate is unfounded… they kind of came from nowhere, Charr and Humans were on the surface of tyria for a very very long time, had many wars over it. Only once the Elder Dragons started stirring, did the Norn and Asura appear, however, they’re also established races and their origin isn’t completely random and in the middle of existing empires.

So are you talking from a player perspective or an in-world perspective?

From a player perspective I’ve loved the sylvari since they were announced in 2007, the same year that asura and norn were introduced as well.

From an in-world perspective, the sylvari appeared, were attacked by the asura out of ignorance, then went on to contribute helpfully throughout Tyria to various causes.

So yeah, I’d say that sylvari hate is unfounded.

Agreed, though there are reasons to hate certain Sylvari. The Nightmare Court and those who join pirates.

Malkavian.4516:

I See No Tomorrow.7302:

Mushroomz.4280:

I wouldn’t say Sylvari hate is unfounded… they kind of came from nowhere, Charr and Humans were on the surface of tyria for a very very long time, had many wars over it. Only once the Elder Dragons started stirring, did the Norn and Asura appear, however, they’re also established races and their origin isn’t completely random and in the middle of existing empires.

So are you talking from a player perspective or an in-world perspective?

From a player perspective I’ve loved the sylvari since they were announced in 2007, the same year that asura and norn were introduced as well.

From an in-world perspective, the sylvari appeared, were attacked by the asura out of ignorance, then went on to contribute helpfully throughout Tyria to various causes.

So yeah, I’d say that sylvari hate is unfounded.

Agreed, though there are reasons to hate certain Sylvari. The Nightmare Court and those who join pirates.

The Nightmare Court perform more attacks against other sylvari than they do members of other races. Their goal is to turn the Pale Tree, so hurting other races doesn’t really help. Hate the Nightmare Court, not the sylvari.

There are pirates of every race, hah

I wasn’t saying for people to love every sylvari ever, I’m just saying a hate of the entire race is a little silly.

ElysianEternity.6215:

So, in other words the most cited, fanfiction-ish and unfounded theory since beta was supposedly one of anet’s story’s greatest mysteries?

I hope that isn’t something the writers are proud of.

I don’t even really know what to say. Just wow. Lame.

How exactly was that theory unfounded. When it all came down to it, it does justify how Sylvari can be consumed by nightmare and how it’s virtually impossible to bring them back to the light as they are originally made to be Mordremoth’s minions and that all Ventari did was to show them the path to the light.

I See No Tomorrow.7302:

Malkavian.4516:

I See No Tomorrow.7302:

Mushroomz.4280:

I wouldn’t say Sylvari hate is unfounded… they kind of came from nowhere, Charr and Humans were on the surface of tyria for a very very long time, had many wars over it. Only once the Elder Dragons started stirring, did the Norn and Asura appear, however, they’re also established races and their origin isn’t completely random and in the middle of existing empires.

So are you talking from a player perspective or an in-world perspective?

From a player perspective I’ve loved the sylvari since they were announced in 2007, the same year that asura and norn were introduced as well.

From an in-world perspective, the sylvari appeared, were attacked by the asura out of ignorance, then went on to contribute helpfully throughout Tyria to various causes.

So yeah, I’d say that sylvari hate is unfounded.

Agreed, though there are reasons to hate certain Sylvari. The Nightmare Court and those who join pirates.

The Nightmare Court perform more attacks against other sylvari than they do members of other races. Their goal is to turn the Pale Tree, so hurting other races doesn’t really help. Hate the Nightmare Court, not the sylvari.

There are pirates of every race, hah

I wasn’t saying for people to love every sylvari ever, I’m just saying a hate of the entire race is a little silly.

Hating the many for the sins of the few is very easy to do.

Personally, I don’t think it’s unfounded so much as it is that many people on this forum have a long history of pointing out that the evidence for it has been tenuous, myself included. Proponents of this theory, seemingly more than any other theory out there, had a habit of stating it as fact and even using it as evidence for other theories, and we spent so long arguing so hard that they shouldn’t get carried away we developed an antipathy to the theory itself, not for its own merits but due to the nature of its loudest proponents. That… seems to have been a mistake.

My two coppers, anyway.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Incidentally, am I the only one who thinks the being overlooking the ruins resembled a mordremed mursaat?

Judging by just by its looks, cannot be also a Seer? Lorewise, how would they put it there, I have no idea…

Edit: saw video the scene again and saw long black type of feathers on its back, so most likely Mursaat than Seer.

CureForLiving.5360:

ElysianEternity.6215:

So, in other words the most cited, fanfiction-ish and unfounded theory since beta was supposedly one of anet’s story’s greatest mysteries?

I hope that isn’t something the writers are proud of.

I don’t even really know what to say. Just wow. Lame.

I don’t know, just because player were able to guess it doesn’t mean its bad. Remember the series Lost? You know where the writers were so determined to be smarter than the audience that they purposefully took the series into the most stupidest directs? Yeah, I’d rather ANet not do that.

Idk, IMO it’s pretty bad if you try to sell it as surprise when the strongest and first ‘hint’ is a dude in the starter area where you wake up being all ‘hmm very coincidence such timing’.

Though, unfounded? Yeah. Because there’s a couple things ingame that go against the idea which most people who aren’t familiar with the lore aren’t aware of whenever they hold up this idea.

And this update even flatout retconned things which makes things look really sloppy and incoherent.

Trahearne is the oldest and first of the night cycle, second is Malomedies. Not Wynne who just got shoved in here outta nowhere to justify her secret.

Then we have that Faolain fell into Nightmare while she was with Caithe in Orr and that she was the first. Apparently that never happened now or what and she simply hung out with the NC?

And if the Nightmare is Mord’s corruption then wouldn’t that make Nightmare the default for sylvari and again kinda clash with Malyck who knows of neither dream nor nightmare?

I guess I can accept it as canon, though it still reeks of rather poor writing.
Heck, I’m not even going to about the whole gaining-free-will topic because the only way I can explain myself that is that all pale-tree seeds were cleansed by the forgotten last cycle.

Edit: Okay, I may be wrong about Trahearne. I thought there was a point ingame where he says he is of the night cycle but it’s not on the wiki. So either I remember something undocumented or messed up.

I am rather certain that Faolain have never been claimed to be the first to fall to Nightmare.

lordkrall.7241:

I am rather certain that Faolain have never been claimed to be the first to fall to Nightmare.

Caderyn founded the Nightmare Court, but I’m rather certain that Faolain was the first to fall into nightmare.

lordkrall.7241:

Unfounded?
The fact that people have been discussing it since beta would suggest that there were indeed things pointing towards it, ergo not unfounded.

The supporters have been arguing it despite continuous evidence against the theory. All evidential support they had was debunked upon release.

But ArenaNet goes and make the most illogical, asinine, and ridiculous but “common” theory canon lore.

It’s pretty kitten clear this wasn’t the fate of the sylvari upon their creation or during release.

What’s next? The gods are the Elder Dragons after all?

CureForLiving.5360:

I don’t know, just because player were able to guess it doesn’t mean its bad. Remember the series Lost? You know where the writers were so determined to be smarter than the audience that they purposefully took the series into the most stupidest directs? Yeah, I’d rather ANet not do that.

Too late, they’re going in the most stupidest directions.

It’s just that they’re giving the vocal fans what they think they want.

The NPE was this as well.

It’s become clear to me: ArenaNet has someone or someones who’s too kitten sensative to their feelings over their work that they intentionally kitten it up in a way to make it into what the players claim to want.

What’s next, Anet? Kormir no longer is a god, it is the PC from GW1?

I think this “revelation” is utterly bullkitten because 1) the “theory” has been debunked time and time again by the game itself and 2) sylvari being dragon minions (purified or otherwise) has always come off to me as a terrible story decision to try and take, as not only are they nothing like the pre-established dragon minions, but I feel that this would destroy the uniqueness and the entire concept of the sylvari being “a brand new race born in a time of turmoil”. We have many stories that feature races, nations, and other groups struggling to survive a time of great turmoil in various degrees, but just about every single one of these races/nations/groups are well established, or are a rebirth, but never – or very, very rarely – the beginning of the race who do not know why they were born into a world on the brink of the end. To reveal that “why” as “you are descendants of the world-enders!” is just plain silly and unimaginative to me.

Malkavian.4516:

How exactly was that theory unfounded. When it all came down to it, it does justify how Sylvari can be consumed by nightmare and how it’s virtually impossible to bring them back to the light as they are originally made to be Mordremoth’s minions and that all Ventari did was to show them the path to the light.

The theory that Nightmare was Mordremoth’s corruption was an entirely different – and actually supported – theory that made some semblance of sense, unlike the “sylvari are dragon minions” ‘theory’ (and I use that word very loosely).
————————————————————————————————-
Dear ArenaNet, I don’t kittening care about your story anymore. Congratulations. You just managed to ruin one of your biggest fans since 2006, one of the biggest contributors to the wikis until last year, and someone who was eager to be part of your company until that same point last year. You had a chance to bring me back. I’ve been patient with you, hoping that despite the constant continuity errors that the Living World (especially Season 2) adds in, that you’d fix your path. Well, it’s obvious you didn’t. You decide, once more, to go with the “rule of cool” and ignore this fascinating thing called logic and continuity.

Congratulations, ArenaNet, and goodbye.

If you see me in-game, it isn’t for the story anymore. It’s for the mindless acts of killing pixels. Though Quake does a better job at that.

I haven’t even played Episode 8, but this single spoiler makes me not want to. To think I was actually looking forward to the update today. But no more. If I do play it, it’ll be to complete the Carapace and Luminescent armor, or to satiate a potentially inevitable curiosity about how, exactly, they decided the kitten up.

It’s been good knowing you lore community, but this is my last straw. If you see me on this forum again, it’d be habit and no more.

Edit: Oh, and it’s been said in an interview/by Caithe in TA story (I can never recall which and wiki doesn’t have all TA story dialogue up) that Faolain was, indeed, the first to encounter Nightmare – however, she didn’t fully fall into it until much alter, when Cadeyrn, already fallen to Nightmare, pulled her into it, where she then replaced him as leader of the Nightmare Court.

Where are all these evidence against the theory? As far as I have seen in all the threads there have been quite a few assumptions and such, but never any actual facts that prove one side or the other.

Claiming that it wasn’t the fate of the Sylvari upon their creation is a very bold statement. Do you have anything to back it up with or are you just raging because you don’t like the way the story evolves?

EDIT:
Ah, see that you have written more now, so clearly it is a case of raging rather than actual facts.

What is that, the third time you quit the game now?

I’m sure there’s a thousand places where you can pick this story apart. I am absolutely no fan of lore inconsistencies. But on the other hand – retconning and making retrospective changes to the story (and with it: preferably content as well) – that; I’m perfectly fine with.

I think I am willing to forgive the potential problems this latest patch poses, in the benefit of what could possibly be a storlyline of much more depth. So many times have people pointed out the lack of depth to the “killing this dragon” > kill next one > rince and repeat" recipe.

To me, GW1 storyline’s main strength was always the depth of internal conflict between humans, civil wars, politics, rulership, religion. I have no idea how they’ll pull “Hearts of Thorns” off, but it certainly seem to have the potential of giving each race much more identity.

I’ve never liked sylvari too much. These latest patches have made them more interesting for me to play, not less.

Bold move, interesting potential for the upcoming expansion, just gotta wait and see.
(and in the meantime we can discuss all the lore inconsistencies and sort them out with Peter Fries)

Konig Des Todes.2086:

lordkrall.7241:

ElysianEternity.6215:

So, in other words the most cited, fanfiction-ish and unfounded theory since beta was supposedly one of anet’s story’s greatest mysteries?

I hope that isn’t something the writers are proud of.

I don’t even really know what to say. Just wow. Lame.

Unfounded?
The fact that people have been discussing it since beta would suggest that there were indeed things pointing towards it, ergo not unfounded.

The supporters have been arguing it despite continuous evidence against the theory. All evidential support they had was debunked upon release.

But ArenaNet goes and make the most illogical, asinine, and ridiculous but “common” theory canon lore.

It’s pretty kitten clear this wasn’t the fate of the sylvari upon their creation or during release.

What’s next? The gods are the Elder Dragons after all?

CureForLiving.5360:

I don’t know, just because player were able to guess it doesn’t mean its bad. Remember the series Lost? You know where the writers were so determined to be smarter than the audience that they purposefully took the series into the most stupidest directs? Yeah, I’d rather ANet not do that.

Too late, they’re going in the most stupidest directions.

It’s just that they’re giving the vocal fans what they think they want.

THe NPE was this as well.

It’s become clear to me: ArenaNet has someone or someones who’s too kitten sensative to their feelings over their work that they intentionally kitten it up in a way to make it into what the players claim to want.

What’s next, Anet? Kormir no longer is a god, it is the PC from GW1?

I think this “revelation” is utterly bullkitten because 1) the “theory” has been debunked time and time again by the game itself and 2) it destroys the uniquness of the sylvari race, turning them into an atypical boring “bad guys turned good” rather than the stigmatic, mysterious race they were until now. There were thousands of potential directions ArenaNet could have gone with, all of them far more original than “bad turned good”.

Dear ArenaNet, I don’t kittening care about your story anymore. Congratulations. You just managed to ruin one of your biggest fans since 2006, one of the biggest contributors to the wikis until last year, and someone who was eager to be part of your company until that same point last year. You had a chance to bring me back. I’ve been patient with you, hoping that despite the constant continuity errors that the Living World (especially Season 2) adds in, that you’d fix your path. Well, it’s obvious you didn’t. You decide, once more, to go with the “rule of cool” and ignore this fascinating thing called logic and continuity.

Congratulations, ArenaNet, and goodbye.

If you see me in-game, it isn’t for the story anymore. It’s for the mindless acts of killing pixels. Though Quake does a better job at that.

I haven’t even played Episode 8, but this single spoiler makes me not want to. To think I was actually looking forward to the update today. But no more. If I do play it, it’ll be to complete the Carapace and Luminescent armor, or to satiate a potentially inevitable curiosity about how, exactly, they decided the kitten up.

It’s been good knowing you lore community, but this is my last straw. If you see me on this forum again, it’d be habit and no more.

Edit: Oh, and it’s been said in an interview/by Caithe in TA story (I can never recall which and wiki doesn’t have all TA story dialogue up) that Faolain was, indeed, the first to encounter Nightmare – however, she didn’t fully fall into it until much alter, when Cadeyrn, already fallen to Nightmare, pulled her into it, where she then replaced him as leader of the Nightmare Court.

The salt is real.

We’ve watched you flame down (and often rudely) anyone presenting the Sylvari Mordremoth Minion theory, fanatically defending your stance and now you’re throwing a tantrum because it’s you who’ve been debunked. It would be priceless if it weren’t so sad.

I’m very interested to see how they handle this in relation to Sylvari players in Heart of Thorns. There is no precedent in an online game that I am aware of, that a very large portion of the players had been revealed to be the enemy that they were fighting the entire time.

An interesting discussion from a couple of years ago about how this could be coming:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/sylvari/SPOILERS-The-Sylvari-are-not-minions/first

What’s interesting is that while the OP is arguing against this they end up kind of supporting it.

lordkrall.7241:

Where are all these evidence against the theory? As far as I have seen in all the threads there have been quite a few assumptions and such, but never any actual facts that prove one side or the other.

Claiming that it wasn’t the fate of the Sylvari upon their creation is a very bold statement. Do you have anything to back it up with or are you just raging because you don’t like the way the story evolves?

Every time the theory has popped up, it uses Glint or nurture v. nature as examples, and both examples fail in comparison with the Pale Tree because of the nature of the ritual and the fact that dragon minions are generally mindless (sans champions) and are part of a hive mind, lacking free will. Sylvari have no similarities to any dragon minion group – they do not have hive minds, despite the claims that the Dream is such, Kalleen in GoA outright states it’s not a hive mind. As such, nurture has nothing to do with the (once potential_ purification of the Pale Tree. The ritual of the Forgotten requires specific geographical locations, so while theoretically possible, is unlikely for the seeds to have been put under that process – and because it requires a lot of resources, as said in the same interview as the mention of specific geographical locations – why do such on a group of seeds (or a single seed)?

That’s just the tip of the iceberg, and I really don’t feel like going into it.

On the latter portion, it was in how they were revealed, really. Although the cave full of seeds were full of terrible plant creatures, everything else really pointed to them being new and never existed before. The very lack of documents on them, despite knowledge of Mordremoth and his corruption, should point to this in fact.

And hell, the sylvari look nothing like the mordrem – nor does the Pale Tree look anything like Mordrem (unless there’s something in the new update that shows that some do look sylvari/pale tree-like). It’s not just me raging, but really nothing in the original reveal even hinted to “sylvari=dragon minions”. Not even in the initial release were there such things – the fact that a sylvari was in the center of the Forgotten ritual and had no change, the fact that there was continuously no evidence of sylvari in the past, despite (albeit damaged) records and myths of every dragons’ influence and minions? There would have been hints – more than just “the Nightmare may be tied” hints that we got – if this was planned from the beginning.

kylwilson.9137:

We’ve watched you flame down (and often rudely) anyone presenting the Sylvari Mordremoth Minion theory, fanatically defending your stance and now you’re throwing a tantrum because it’s you who’ve been debunked. It would be priceless if it weren’t so sad.

You really think I care about being proven wrong?

I’ve had my favorite theories debunked quite a few times. I never minded. Often, I found the true outcome to be more interesting because I didn’t think of it.

This, however, I feel is very unimaginative and boring in the sense of storytelling.

My “flaming” of the sylvari=minions ‘theory’ is only caused by the repetitious amount of it being brought up despite the support for it having been debunked, leaving it unsupported. If there was support for it, I wouldn’t have minded the theories; if the thing didn’t pop up 50 thousand times as “hey guys I have a wild theory but what if the sylvari are dragon minions!?!?” in the 2 years since pre-release, I wouldn’t have minded the theories.

But I am raging over this story decision not for the theories themselves, but because it is, in my opinion of course, a terrible direction for the story of the sylvari. There were dozens – if not hundreds or even thousands – of better explanations for “who are the sylvari and why were they born now” than “purified dragon minions”. And I feel that, going off of what we’ve seen in the past few months primarily, ArenaNet has turned into pushing stories in the directions of the most vocal theory – regardless of how illogical it is – and pushing for removal of things players joke about or dislike.

That’s a design decision on a far wider scale than simply this lore reveal.

The ‘Sylvari are (freed) Dragon minions’ theory had hardly any evidence to support it. We still don’t know how they’re not without will now, just that they’re not all mindless minions of Mordremoth. When you spend so much time debunking the theory and arguing with people who refuse to accept that you may have a point, it’s no wonder if you start to hate it.

It was (and actually still is) my least favourite theory as well, even though I do like this release. There were a couple of ideas I had that I thought would be more interesting, the Sylvari being created by the Forgotten or some other ancient race, for instance, but I suppose that doesn’t matter anymore now.

We’ll have to see how it goes from here. I am curious what Heart of Thorns will bring.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I haven’t even played Episode 8, but this single spoiler makes me not want to.

Makes me very sad to see your reaction Konig. I don’t think anyone has the same amount of knowledge about the universe as you do.
Please play the episode. I am very much interested in seeing your full review. I’ve always had immense respect for you and your input.

Maybe the real continuity issue here lays way back in time? On one hand they’re creating more and more inconsistencies. But on many other points (not all!): Seasons 1 and 2 has never felt as consistent as they do now.
Ceara’s plot (though it isn’t exactly 100% consistent) it’s now much more coherent than during season 1 (corrupted mind > Prosperity research > Mordremoth’s awakening > dead > Aerin > season 2).

Old lore mixed in (again: might not be consistent, but certainly an improvement in coherent storytelling):
White Mantle planted early in S2: ties to Saul’s golden city, the Mursaat. Ties back to knowledge planted deep and even long before the time of GW1. More and more dots are starting to feel connected to eachother.

Sadly, at the same time: some very huge – and painful – inconsistencies are created.

As I said above, I find the plot change very interesting. But I really do wish they’ll try to properly weed out the past inconsistencies. No need for vague excuses and tricks (“the Asura found another 5 days”). Just say it straight out insted: “this and that is what we’ve retconned. It is no longer true. We wanted our story to go in another direction.”

Konig Des Todes.2086:

lordkrall.7241:

Where are all these evidence against the theory? As far as I have seen in all the threads there have been quite a few assumptions and such, but never any actual facts that prove one side or the other.

Claiming that it wasn’t the fate of the Sylvari upon their creation is a very bold statement. Do you have anything to back it up with or are you just raging because you don’t like the way the story evolves?

Every time the theory has popped up, it uses Glint or nurture v. nature as examples, and both examples fail in comparison with the Pale Tree because of the nature of the ritual and the fact that dragon minions are generally mindless (sans champions) and are part of a hive mind, lacking free will. Sylvari have no similarities to any dragon minion group – they do not have hive minds, despite the claims that the Dream is such, Kalleen in GoA outright states it’s not a hive mind. As such, nurture has nothing to do with the (once potential_ purification of the Pale Tree. The ritual of the Forgotten requires specific geographical locations, so while theoretically possible, is unlikely for the seeds to have been put under that process – and because it requires a lot of resources, as said in the same interview as the mention of specific geographical locations – why do such on a group of seeds (or a single seed)?

That’s just the tip of the iceberg, and I really don’t feel like going into it.

On the latter portion, it was in how they were revealed, really. Although the cave full of seeds were full of terrible plant creatures, everything else really pointed to them being new and never existed before. The very lack of documents on them, despite knowledge of Mordremoth and his corruption, should point to this in fact.

And hell, the sylvari look nothing like the mordrem – nor does the Pale Tree look anything like Mordrem (unless there’s something in the new update that shows that some do look sylvari/pale tree-like). It’s not just me raging, but really nothing in the original reveal even hinted to “sylvari=dragon minions”. Not even in the initial release were there such things – the fact that a sylvari was in the center of the Forgotten ritual and had no change, the fact that there was continuously no evidence of sylvari in the past, despite (albeit damaged) records and myths of every dragons’ influence and minions? There would have been hints – more than just “the Nightmare may be tied” hints that we got – if this was planned from the beginning.

So, the whole thing that points against the (clearly true) theory was that it didn’t work the same way as everything else? There is nothing in any of those points that PROVE anything at all.

Sylvari are clearly completely different from Glint, so assuming they would need to be freed in the same way as Glint is a bit far-fetched and so on.

The Dragons clearly are different, with different methods and such, so why assume that freeing minions from their influence works the exact same way?

All it comes down to people disagreeing with things, nothing about any actual proof.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

lordkrall.7241:

Unfounded?
The fact that people have been discussing it since beta would suggest that there were indeed things pointing towards it, ergo not unfounded.

The supporters have been arguing it despite continuous evidence against the theory. All evidential support they had was debunked upon release.

But ArenaNet goes and make the most illogical, asinine, and ridiculous but “common” theory canon lore.

It’s pretty kitten clear this wasn’t the fate of the sylvari upon their creation or during release.

What’s next? The gods are the Elder Dragons after all?

CureForLiving.5360:

I don’t know, just because player were able to guess it doesn’t mean its bad. Remember the series Lost? You know where the writers were so determined to be smarter than the audience that they purposefully took the series into the most stupidest directs? Yeah, I’d rather ANet not do that.

Too late, they’re going in the most stupidest directions.

It’s just that they’re giving the vocal fans what they think they want.

The NPE was this as well.

It’s become clear to me: ArenaNet has someone or someones who’s too kitten sensative to their feelings over their work that they intentionally kitten it up in a way to make it into what the players claim to want.

What’s next, Anet? Kormir no longer is a god, it is the PC from GW1?

I think this “revelation” is utterly bullkitten because 1) the “theory” has been debunked time and time again by the game itself and 2) sylvari being dragon minions (purified or otherwise) has always come off to me as a terrible story decision to try and take, as not only are they nothing like the pre-established dragon minions, but I feel that this would destroy the uniqueness and the entire concept of the sylvari being “a brand new race born in a time of turmoil”. We have many stories that feature races, nations, and other groups struggling to survive a time of great turmoil in various degrees, but just about every single one of these races/nations/groups are well established, or are a rebirth, but never – or very, very rarely – the beginning of the race who do not know why they were born into a world on the brink of the end. To reveal that “why” as “you are descendants of the world-enders!” is just plain silly and unimaginative to me.

Malkavian.4516:

How exactly was that theory unfounded. When it all came down to it, it does justify how Sylvari can be consumed by nightmare and how it’s virtually impossible to bring them back to the light as they are originally made to be Mordremoth’s minions and that all Ventari did was to show them the path to the light.

The theory that Nightmare was Mordremoth’s corruption was an entirely different – and actually supported – theory that made some semblance of sense, unlike the “sylvari are dragon minions” ‘theory’ (and I use that word very loosely).
————————————————————————————————-
Dear ArenaNet, I don’t kittening care about your story anymore. Congratulations. You just managed to ruin one of your biggest fans since 2006, one of the biggest contributors to the wikis until last year, and someone who was eager to be part of your company until that same point last year. You had a chance to bring me back. I’ve been patient with you, hoping that despite the constant continuity errors that the Living World (especially Season 2) adds in, that you’d fix your path. Well, it’s obvious you didn’t. You decide, once more, to go with the “rule of cool” and ignore this fascinating thing called logic and continuity.

Congratulations, ArenaNet, and goodbye.

If you see me in-game, it isn’t for the story anymore. It’s for the mindless acts of killing pixels. Though Quake does a better job at that.

I haven’t even played Episode 8, but this single spoiler makes me not want to. To think I was actually looking forward to the update today. But no more. If I do play it, it’ll be to complete the Carapace and Luminescent armor, or to satiate a potentially inevitable curiosity about how, exactly, they decided the kitten up.

It’s been good knowing you lore community, but this is my last straw. If you see me on this forum again, it’d be habit and no more.

Edit: Oh, and it’s been said in an interview/by Caithe in TA story (I can never recall which and wiki doesn’t have all TA story dialogue up) that Faolain was, indeed, the first to encounter Nightmare – however, she didn’t fully fall into it until much alter, when Cadeyrn, already fallen to Nightmare, pulled her into it, where she then replaced him as leader of the Nightmare Court.

Hey, we do get a hint about Mursaat after all…

Well, if they at least retcon it into something to make the story better and even out all those bumps in a manner that doesn’t raise brows and question marks, I don’t mind.

There’s really a lot of things that can’t be described in any other matter than a row of question marks though and I’d love to have these explained.

Maybe all the Seeds were cleansed by the Forgotten. Like eons ago before Ronan even found them.
And so the tablet only influenced the Pale Tree in the same way reading minds influenced Glint. That’s at least better than making the tablet the cleansing factor and takes a chunk of ridiculousness out of the original theory.

Edit: Though, the difference of sylvari to normal minions does spawn an interesting thought. If we go by the whole magic spheres and how dragons might be opposite of others, then Mord indeed IS life. His ‘minions’ are sentient and sapient in every form other dragon minions are not.

lordkrall.7241:

So, the whole thing that points against the (clearly true) theory was that it didn’t work the same way as everything else? There is nothing in any of those points that PROVE anything at all.

Sylvari are clearly completely different from Glint, so assuming they would need to be freed in the same way as Glint is a bit far-fetched and so on.

The Dragons clearly are different, with different methods and such, so why assume that freeing minions from their influence works the exact same way?

All it comes down to people disagreeing with things, nothing about any actual proof.

The same ritual that was used to free Glint from Kralkatorrik was used on a minion of Zhaitan. And it worked.

lordkrall.7241:

So, the whole thing that points against the (clearly true) theory was that it didn’t work the same way as everything else? There is nothing in any of those points that PROVE anything at all.

Sylvari are clearly completely different from Glint, so assuming they would need to be freed in the same way as Glint is a bit far-fetched and so on.

The Dragons clearly are different, with different methods and such, so why assume that freeing minions from their influence works the exact same way?

All it comes down to people disagreeing with things, nothing about any actual proof.

Problem is, the “sylvari = dragon minion” theory was basically “sylvari are bicycles, because they are the same color”. It made no sense and nothing was supporting it. But now, what a twist ([insert a Shyamalan picture here]), sylvari are bicycles! Except they still lack wheels, handlebar and brakes. Nothing came to explain the glaring problems of this statement. It is on all aspects an a**-pull.

Plus, there was the delivery. I feel like there was a lot of buildup, only to see the curtain rise on a five years-old telling me that santa is real. Don’t expect me to roll with it.

I agree the delivery was horrendous, but I’m perfectly fine with leaving unanswered questions- your handlebars, brakes and wheels. If, as seems to be the case now, something with a lot more heft is coming next (whether it’s an expansion or not is moot), it makes sense to leave such a huge question for that, instead of the much more limited scope of a Living Story episode. Essentially, I think the episode itself (and the episode or two preceding it…)was from a story standpoint just a lead-in to the advertisement it ended on.

Oh, I am LOVING the kittenhurt caused by this revelation! Especially the uptight loremeisters who’s precious ego got hurt by being proven wrong =D

I think anet did this mostly because it’ll make for a good story with the intra- and inter-race tensions that will surely be rising. I’m sure they’ll come up with an explanation to make sense of all of this.

Titus.4285:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I haven’t even played Episode 8, but this single spoiler makes me not want to.

Makes me very sad to see your reaction Konig. I don’t think anyone has the same amount of knowledge about the universe as you do.
Please play the episode. I am very much interested in seeing your full review. I’ve always had immense respect for you and your input.

Just wanted to second this. I’ve been a lurker on the lore forums and always respected your posts. I even read your posts on Guru way back in the day. You leaving the lore forum is like Lilith leaving the dungeon forums. You’re sort of irreplaceable. But, if you do seriously decide to move on, best of luck!

The episode stated they existed to tend to the jungle dragon. This seemed rather logical to me in the context of the game, but could someone calmly and succinctly explain how this has broken the lore?

Im not disputing any arguments, i am just unclear why ppl are so up in arms about this from a lore perspective.

Thanks!

I don’t think anyone’s kitten was hurt during this episode. The regulars on the lore forum are probably used to their theories being proven wrong occasionally, so why would they care about that this time? It’s just that they, or at least some of them, are disappointed in the direction Anet seems to be going with the lore. The often apparent continuity errors don’t help either, even if they are because stuff changed between original reveal and now.

That said, I’ll be sad to see you go, Konig. I enjoy reading your posts. They’re usually informative and very well put together.

I wish Anet cared.

/deep sigh.
I personally think this was just another poor decision in storytelling in a long line of poor decisions. At this point I’m seriously questioning the ability of the writers to actually do anything that is actually unexpected, creative, or genuinely interesting. I’m not stark raving furious or anything like that, but deciding to do this with the Sylvari makes very little sense story wise. It seems like it was done purely for shock value. There were a lot of far more interesting routes they could have gone with this…

Oh well.

(Can we stop the hating on people who have been “proven wrong”. That’s not how this works. Konig is disappointed (and rightly so) that they’ve gone in such a ridiculous direction with the story that doesn’t make much logical sense. It’s not because he’s been proven wrong, he’s not that petty and anyone running around enjoying his reaction or calling him out for it is being a right kitten.)

Errannar.8263:

I don’t think anyone’s kitten was hurt during this episode. The regulars on the lore forum are probably used to their theories being proven wrong occasionally, so why would they care about that this time? It’s just that they, or at least some of them, are disappointed in the direction Anet seems to be going with the lore. The often apparent continuity errors don’t help either, even if they are because stuff changed between original reveal and now.

That said, I’ll be sad to see you go, Konig. I enjoy reading your posts. They’re usually informative and very well put together.

No, nobody’s kitten was hurt, that must be why people are ragequitting the game forever.

Mental, I fail to see how you rubbing it in and gloating is any more dignified than Konig’s rage. Besides, he made it quite clear what was hurt- not some nebulous kitten, but his faith that ArenaNet could live up to their previous work and make good on the excitement they try to build.

I have no idea how someone can protect literally “innocent mary sue” state of sylvari when Anet finally gave them a depth.

Mental Paradox.3845:

No, nobody’s kitten was hurt, that must be why people are ragequitting the game forever.

When someone is so disappointed in something that they don’t feel like spending any more time on it, they often decide to leave.

I don’t think anyone here said they’re leaving the game indefinitely, though. Even Konig said he might still play.

Rednik.3809:

I have no idea how someone can protect literally “innocent mary sue” state of sylvari when Anet finally gave them a depth.

Nobody is saying that the Sylvari shouldn’t have more depth, just that the direction they took for this depth is (currently) rather disappointing.

It feels good to know that my utter dislike for those filthy cucumber brains was justified the entire time. Come on fellow meat bags, it’s time to go full vegetarian!

On a more serious note: Hurray expansion! (I think)

I just don’t understand why everyone is so mad… This information is not even the most important. The point was that Sylvari ARE minions of Mordremoth, though we get a vision of the future as well, including the pact fleet being wiped out by Mordremoth, we see the eye of Mordremoth, AN EXPANSION IS FINALLY ANNOUNCED, some Sylvari WANT to be good, and that now the race will be presented with a unique opportunity to change their destiny, as Caithe clearly says. The whole point is, yeah, they’re Mordremoth’s weapon, but like Glint’s Egg, the steps have been in motion is save or wipe out their race, and shape their image. While the Sylvari seem to be at war with the other races, Canach is yelling that he’s not their enemy, only defending himself, not killing anyone. Evidence has always pointed at this theory, and it’s finally been confirmed. But there are other details that are far more interesting, like the Divine Fire being a weakness to the Mordrem, and the gods have something to do with it. There was plenty of good material… and the fact the Sylvari are minions of Mordremoth wasn’t suprising, it wasn’t horrifically presented, and it just is what it is. I heard that, and I remember it for like… 5 seconds, then the future vision and new campaign stuff came next, and quickly forgot about something that I figured was the case anyways.

I think this will be my last post for tonight. I hope I’ve answered everyone’s queries about my reaction with this.

Titus.4285:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I haven’t even played Episode 8, but this single spoiler makes me not want to.

Makes me very sad to see your reaction Konig. I don’t think anyone has the same amount of knowledge about the universe as you do.
Please play the episode. I am very much interested in seeing your full review. I’ve always had immense respect for you and your input.

I’ll consider it, especially if others highly suggest it to me. But for now, I need a break. I may log in later today/tomorrow just to unlock E8, so who knows, I may take time to actually go through it.

lordkrall.7241:

So, the whole thing that points against the (clearly true) theory was that it didn’t work the same way as everything else? There is nothing in any of those points that PROVE anything at all.

Sylvari are clearly completely different from Glint, so assuming they would need to be freed in the same way as Glint is a bit far-fetched and so on.

The Dragons clearly are different, with different methods and such, so why assume that freeing minions from their influence works the exact same way?

All it comes down to people disagreeing with things, nothing about any actual proof.

I think you misunderstood. I was trying to present two points:

1. The theory’s support was debunked. Thus, while the theory was not debunked, it had no support – ergo, it was the “unsupported theory” that you asked “why is it unsupported”
2. Everything we knew about dragon minions clashed with everything we knew about sylvari. This included the things that function the same and/or similarly across multiple minion types (e.g., the hive mind – we see it/are told of it with risen, icebrood, and destroyers).

In other words: sylvari don’t look, think, act, or in any way, shape, or form function like dragon minions (prior to this at least), while everything used to support the theory of “sylvari=dragon minions” was debunked, even if the fine print of the theory was not.

Mental Paradox.3845:

Oh, I am LOVING the kittenhurt caused by this revelation! Especially the uptight loremeisters who’s precious ego got hurt by being proven wrong =D

I hope you don’t mean me, because – as I said already – “being proven wrong” isn’t the issue.

The issue is the continuity, the meaning, the story, the delivery.

Telling me my theories are wrong, or the theories I think are wrong, in of itself is like spitting on the ground in front of me. It doesn’t do jack squat to me.

But this thing, I dislike because of the explanation in my post. It, in my opinion, ruins the sylvari as a race. Even if the theory never existed, my opinion would be the same.

Rednik.3809:

I have no idea how someone can protect literally “innocent mary sue” state of sylvari when Anet finally gave them a depth.

This is a gross misstatement. The sylvery were never a mary sue race – even if it had mary sue-esque characters (-coughscarletcough-).

Please know what a mary sue is. A mary sue is a character that has no flaws, is central to the plot, and is always right. This is what Scarlet Briar was upon introduction- she was brilliant, liked by everyone, had no care in the world, and even if her plans failed, she still got what she wanted. ArenaNet attempted a Xanatos Gamkittenaracter, but went too far in her perfection. Alternatively, this is what Trahearne was not – he had flaws, it just wasn’t focused on (like a lot of things, the Personal Story felt rushed to get so many plots in those 80 levels); he was not always right – just often right on his field of expertise (he go the location of the source of Orr wrong, remember?). And similarly, the sylvari race has many flaws, are not always right, and are very varied in personalities.

As for how this “depth” was bad… read above.

Mushroomz.4280:

But there are other details that are far more interesting, like the Divine Fire being a weakness to the Mordrem, and the gods have something to do with it.

Hmmm, this actually piqued my interest a bit…