Guild Wars 2

Just saying; A lots of people returning to GW1. Wonder why..

. . . sigh. Well, let’s see my track record so far with GW2.

“Mordremoth is an elder dragon” proven right after repeatedly arguing there was only one skill hinting at it, requiring very careful reading of combat logs and a boatload of assumptions. I was okay with this because I wasn’t having a problem with the idea so much as the flimsy evidence to support it.

“Pale Tree was a dragon minion/champion” apparently proven right, after I’ve argued first how it was less likely that was the case, then argued just because they were intelligent plants they need not be connected to Mordremoth, but they probably are more susceptible to its corruption.

I don’t even know why I argue lore anymore, because I’m now halfway certain the next twist is having Kormir (the goddess) killed off to prove why the Six Gods don’t intervene with the Elder Dragons. Just to appease the people still salty over her.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Hmmm, this actually piqued my interest a bit…

I respect everything you said (though the whole thing didn’t surprise me that much, since I never liked any lore related to Sylvari, so whatever), but you should play atleast the first mission of the update. It will tickle your nostalgia bones in a good way.

It was pretty clear for me that Sylvari are dragon minions when I saw this:

Mysterious Vine:
“This vine, while appearing to be touched by Mordremoth, has been grown from seed under the good influence of a hero of Tyria. "

From all we know about Ronan, Ventari and the origins of the seeds of the Pale tree it all makes sense.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I’ll consider it, especially if others highly suggest it to me. But for now, I need a break. I may log in later today/tomorrow just to unlock E8, so who knows, I may take time to actually go through it.

I would suggest playing it eventually. I think there’s a lot of interesting details in it, though I’m not too familiar with GW1 lore.

We may have seen this coming a mile away but that doesn’t make it any less awesome imo.

Considering the fact that some dragon minions have proven to be way more intelligent than your average bandit, I wouldn’t say it’s much of a stretch for Sylvari to be controlled by Mordremo. And even if it was, why does Mordremoth have to have the same patterns as Jormag or Zhaitan? Can’t Mordremoth do his own thing? And who is to say that Sylvari that are his minions aren’t just mindless zombies? We haven’t interacted with them yet so that’s still a possibility.

I’m personally looking forward to the future expac because it looks like it might be a fun ride

Hey all, long time lurker here

I have spend quite some time reading all the theories regarding the Sylvari = dragon minions.

but if I remember correctly, during episode 8 it is mentions that
"We sylvari are meant to serve the dragon"

Now English isn’t my forte, but might it be possible that this could be interpreted in any other way that would still debunk the sylvari = dragon minions theory?

Long Post Ahead:
According to the “Movement of the World” it is mentioned that Ronan found a cavern filled with seed-pods, one of which he stole, and guarded by hostile plant creatures. The seed he stole would eventually become the Pale Tree.

Since hostile plant creatures seem to be common in the Maguuma Jungle, as part of the natural wildlife, most people assumed that the Pale Tree seed was a natural occurrence and not connected to any of the dragons. At this point the allegiance, origin and nature of the Pale Tree and the Sylvari could have been taken in one of several different directions.

Those being that the Sylvari were a natural occurrence brought on by the high amount of magic within the Maguuma Jungle and the impending rise of the dragons. Basically, that the dragons were a disease and the Sylvari were Tyria’s solution to destroying the dragons once and for all. This theory was helped by the fact that so many of the Sylvari opposing the dragons and that the Wyld Hunt of a Sylvari PC was originally thought to be fighting and killing the dragons. Of course, there were many other theories.

However, the direction taken is that the Sylvari and the Pale Tree were supposed to serve Mordremoth. Considering Mordremoth controls plant creatures and the cavern the Pale Trees’ seed was found in was guarded by plant creatures, it can easily be said that Ronan encountered the Mordrem rather than natural occurring plant creatures. Now the explanation of why the Pale Tree is no longer connected to Mordremoth can be fairly simple.

That being the Pale Tree growing away from the influence of the sleeping dragon Mordremoth. As can be seen with the Mawdrey backpiece it is possible for a seed associated with a dragon to be purified and when grown outside the influence of the dragon it would not be naturally hostile. Considering the Pale Trees’ seed grew outside of the influence of Mordremoth it can be argued that the Pale Tree did not have to be purified first.

The Avatar of the Pale Tree. With the dragon sleeping and not being under the dragon’s area of influence the Pale Tree simply used Ventari’s Tablet to pattern a personality, mind and goal which is represented by the Avatar. The Shadow of the Dragon entire purpose when it first appeared seemed to be to destroy the Avatar of the Pale Tree. The Nightmare Court seems to be targeting the Avatar to turn it to Nightmare. The most likely reason is that without the Avatar, the Sylvari born from the Pale Tree will no longer be protected from the Nightmare or Mordremoth. Meaning they would become dragon minions once again.

The Dream. Most likely the dream is the mind of Mordremoth which if left unchecked would allow it to directly indoctrinate, control and direct the Sylvari. The Avatar, the mind of the Pale Tree, is what shields the Sylvari from Mordremoth’s mind and control. Remember, the minions of the dragons seem to begin from a central point and then spreads as the dragon awakens and as it gains more magic; and therefore more power. So the Avatar is able to resist Mordremoth’s control until it gains enough power to overwhelm the Avatar.

Simply, as the Sylvari move further away from the Pale Tree and closer to Mordremoth the more susceptible they become to being controlled by Mordremoth. Which explains the ending cutscene of the most recent Living Story episode. As for the Dream I always assumed the Avatar is an overlay or shield for the Sylvari, but when a Sylvari is born close or during the Night Cycle they are very close to the borders of the shield. Which explains why Wynne was able to see that the Sylvari were supposed to serve Mordremoth as she was most likely born near the borders of the dream and is most likely the only one that ventured that close without losing control of her/him self. Except for the Avatar of course.

Basically, the Avatar lied to the Sylvari and tried to guide them toward what it believes to be a better goal. As with all lore within books, games and anything else the information found within is not necessarily fact. It could be the opinions of characters within the game/fiction, lies or information that is correct from a certain point-of-view. Just because one source within the game contradicts another source within the game does not mean it is a retcon. A retcon would be something like replacing Destiny’s Edge with Quaggans and the development team saying that Destiny’s Edge have always been Quaggans. At least all of this is my opinion anyway.

Corana.9837:

As with all lore within books, games and anything else the information found within is not necessarily fact.

Something Guild Wars has done for more than a few times in its life, even in the first set of games.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

snip

Some of us have seen this destination coming for a long time now.

Welcome to the club, brother.
See my sig.

Let’s remember that Mordremoth is Plants and Mind.

Of course his Mordrem are all intelligent and have hierarchy as seen with the generals of Vinewrath the Dragon Champion.

I dare say even the Mordrem Wolves have brains and make plans….

We may also see Mordremoth taking command of the Toxic Alliance, Aetherblades and the Molten Alliance.

Aetherblades and Molten Alliance will probably be Mordrem like the Toxic Krait and all Sylvari are next time we see them.

Now considering how the obvious choice in all of Tyria’s mysteries is constantly the real one with the exception of the Eternal Alchemy cutscene’s mystery we must conclude that the nature of the Dragon-like Plants in Cantha’s true nature is also the obvious one:

The Dragon Lillies, Dragon Mosses and Underbrushes are all Mordrem(not surprising considering how Thorn Wolves have been seen in both the Nightmare and in Echovald Forest).

Not sure if you guys saw this, but Angel McCoy wrote,

“The sylvaris’ origins have been part of their design from the very beginning, since well before we launched the game. Kudos to those who figured it out before the revelation.”

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Not sure if you guys saw this, but Angel McCoy wrote,

“The sylvaris’ origins have been part of their design from the very beginning, since well before we launched the game. Kudos to those who figured it out before the revelation.”

Well, if we’re being on the other side of things: of course she wrote that, it’s one of the biggest tricks to making a sudden invention seem planned all along – you say it was always planned and reference notes and written things nobody outside the company can actually see. And of course, the company would back other employees up on that.

. . . I play way, way too much with people who enjoy mind games.

I can’t say I’m really surprised by this revelation. It did seem like a fairly plausible theory, and I can see how it would make sense. I’m now fairly interested to see how this knowledge, if widely disseminated, will affect the world and how Sylvari are treated.

1. We can safely assume that ANet will not do anything to take away player agency and control of their Sylvari characters, so our characters are at no risk of falling under Mordremoth’s control.

2. It’s more or less confirmed now that the Nightmare Court are those Sylvari who have embraced the dark side of Mordremoth’s influence in the Dream, but who still retain their free will. Will the Nightmare Court, if the truth comes out, openly embrace their heritage and surrender themselves to Mordremoth’s will? Or would they still try to retain their independence, and conduct evil acts while still fighting the Mordrem as they would any other foe?

3. Likewise, given that any Sylvari who chooses to go Soundless (i.e. cut themselves off from the Dream) are placing themselves at a great risk of falling under Mordremoth’s control, does that mean that the Pale Tree should forbid any Sylvari from choosing to go Soundless, for their own good and that of society? If so, it would be an interesting commentary on whether it is right to take away the rights of sentient beings for their own good or the greater good.

@Konig: I’d be sorry to see you go. You’re one of the most knowledgable loremasters here, but I can understand if you feel the change in direction is too much to accept.

But yes, the latest chapter seems to suggest that Divine magic is a bane to the Mordrem (and potentially, other types of dragon minions?) Are the Six Gods somehow drawing on a different source of magic to what the Elder Dragons consume? Or has it been “purified” somehow into a form that is anathema to Dragons and their minions?

3 would be interesting, but it would be contingent on the Pale Tree waking up. At this point, looking back on the season and seeing it as just a series of plots being set up, and figuring that the Pale Tree has more knowledge to give us than the narrative would find convenient, I fully expect her to die.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Personally, I don’t think it’s unfounded so much as it is that many people on this forum have a long history of pointing out that the evidence for it has been tenuous, myself included. Proponents of this theory, seemingly more than any other theory out there, had a habit of stating it as fact and even using it as evidence for other theories, and we spent so long arguing so hard that they shouldn’t get carried away we developed an antipathy to the theory itself, not for its own merits but due to the nature of its loudest proponents. That… seems to have been a mistake.

My two coppers, anyway.

Unfortunately, many who were against the theory outright bullied people at the mere mention of it. Whether people who wanted to discuss the theory had strong facts or not, a few people made it their duty to shut down any conversation about the topic. This continued even after their prized arguments that “proved” it had been debunked were demonstrated not to be strong enough to justify that conclusion. Nothing justified their behavior.

I’m glad that this is the outcome. It made sense from a story perspective. The high level of nitpicking that was required to even challenge it, further made me want it to happen. It’s a shame no one was allowed to discuss it constructively for so long.

lordkrall.7241:

Where are all these evidence against the theory? As far as I have seen in all the threads there have been quite a few assumptions and such, but never any actual facts that prove one side or the other.

There was evidence that cast doubt on the theory. It required some stretches, but was worthdiscussing. That evidence also had a ton of holes in it that were frequently ignored by those who didn’t like the theory. It is not a surprise that some are so upset because they spent so much time convincing themselves that it couldn’t be, it’s hard to accept it now.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Not sure if you guys saw this, but Angel McCoy wrote,

“The sylvaris’ origins have been part of their design from the very beginning, since well before we launched the game. Kudos to those who figured it out before the revelation.”

Well, if we’re being on the other side of things: of course she wrote that, it’s one of the biggest tricks to making a sudden invention seem planned all along – you say it was always planned and reference notes and written things nobody outside the company can actually see. And of course, the company would back other employees up on that.

. . . I play way, way too much with people who enjoy mind games.

It looks like you’re accusing her of lying. That’s a low class response from you.

I’m glad that the sylvari were originally meant to be minions. I hope the people that constantly bullied others for this position will reconsider how they treat people that have opinions different from their own.

DaShi.1368:

lordkrall.7241:

Where are all these evidence against the theory? As far as I have seen in all the threads there have been quite a few assumptions and such, but never any actual facts that prove one side or the other.

There was evidence that cast doubt on the theory. It required some stretches, but was worthdiscussing. That evidence also had a ton of holes in it that were frequently ignored by those who didn’t like the theory. It is not a surprise that some are so upset because they spent so much time convincing themselves that it couldn’t be, it’s hard to accept it now.

It gets easier to accept if you just finished playing Belcher’s Bluff against Irongut.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

lordkrall.7241:

Unfounded?
The fact that people have been discussing it since beta would suggest that there were indeed things pointing towards it, ergo not unfounded.

The supporters have been arguing it despite continuous evidence against the theory. All evidential support they had was debunked upon release.

But ArenaNet goes and make the most illogical, asinine, and ridiculous but “common” theory canon lore.

It’s pretty kitten clear this wasn’t the fate of the sylvari upon their creation or during release.

What’s next? The gods are the Elder Dragons after all?

CureForLiving.5360:

I don’t know, just because player were able to guess it doesn’t mean its bad. Remember the series Lost? You know where the writers were so determined to be smarter than the audience that they purposefully took the series into the most stupidest directs? Yeah, I’d rather ANet not do that.

Too late, they’re going in the most stupidest directions.

It’s just that they’re giving the vocal fans what they think they want.

The NPE was this as well.

It’s become clear to me: ArenaNet has someone or someones who’s too kitten sensative to their feelings over their work that they intentionally kitten it up in a way to make it into what the players claim to want.

What’s next, Anet? Kormir no longer is a god, it is the PC from GW1?

I think this “revelation” is utterly bullkitten because 1) the “theory” has been debunked time and time again by the game itself and 2) sylvari being dragon minions (purified or otherwise) has always come off to me as a terrible story decision to try and take, as not only are they nothing like the pre-established dragon minions, but I feel that this would destroy the uniqueness and the entire concept of the sylvari being “a brand new race born in a time of turmoil”. We have many stories that feature races, nations, and other groups struggling to survive a time of great turmoil in various degrees, but just about every single one of these races/nations/groups are well established, or are a rebirth, but never – or very, very rarely – the beginning of the race who do not know why they were born into a world on the brink of the end. To reveal that “why” as “you are descendants of the world-enders!” is just plain silly and unimaginative to me.

Malkavian.4516:

How exactly was that theory unfounded. When it all came down to it, it does justify how Sylvari can be consumed by nightmare and how it’s virtually impossible to bring them back to the light as they are originally made to be Mordremoth’s minions and that all Ventari did was to show them the path to the light.

The theory that Nightmare was Mordremoth’s corruption was an entirely different – and actually supported – theory that made some semblance of sense, unlike the “sylvari are dragon minions” ‘theory’ (and I use that word very loosely).
————————————————————————————————-
Dear ArenaNet, I don’t kittening care about your story anymore. Congratulations. You just managed to ruin one of your biggest fans since 2006, one of the biggest contributors to the wikis until last year, and someone who was eager to be part of your company until that same point last year. You had a chance to bring me back. I’ve been patient with you, hoping that despite the constant continuity errors that the Living World (especially Season 2) adds in, that you’d fix your path. Well, it’s obvious you didn’t. You decide, once more, to go with the “rule of cool” and ignore this fascinating thing called logic and continuity.

Congratulations, ArenaNet, and goodbye.

If you see me in-game, it isn’t for the story anymore. It’s for the mindless acts of killing pixels. Though Quake does a better job at that.

I haven’t even played Episode 8, but this single spoiler makes me not want to. To think I was actually looking forward to the update today. But no more. If I do play it, it’ll be to complete the Carapace and Luminescent armor, or to satiate a potentially inevitable curiosity about how, exactly, they decided the kitten up.

It’s been good knowing you lore community, but this is my last straw. If you see me on this forum again, it’d be habit and no more.

Edit: Oh, and it’s been said in an interview/by Caithe in TA story (I can never recall which and wiki doesn’t have all TA story dialogue up) that Faolain was, indeed, the first to encounter Nightmare – however, she didn’t fully fall into it until much alter, when Cadeyrn, already fallen to Nightmare, pulled her into it, where she then replaced him as leader of the Nightmare Court.

Wow, nice attempt to make this thread all about you.

I see everyone crying here : "" but, but, the sylvari are not like the typical dragon minions , ANET SUCKS"

Let me say something : First, we only know the tip of the iceberg, there will be more info in the future

Secondo, I agree, the Sylvari are not like typical dragons minions , but there is nothing that say every dragon should do the same thing. Modremoth can be the exception.

I think Mordremoth have 2 type of minion. The classical one, the Mordrems, with Hive Mind, mindless, etc. Like the branded and risen.

The second type, the Sylvari, the ‘’ elite minion ’’. I think 2 scenario are possible here.

1st Sylvari are super sentient soldier for the dragon, but Ventari decorrupt them ( I don’t think it’s that one).

2nd, Sylvari are ‘’ sleeping agent ’’ minions. They are born ok, sentient, without HiveMind and love flower and Bambi. But when activated, they become crazy " mindless’’ bloodthirsty minions. They ,maybe, also have an Hive Mind ( we can’t know, since for the moment, only 2 Sylvari where corrupted and not in the same time.)

Why I support more the 2nd scenario ? Because of Mallyk and the end cinematic ( not the trailer for HoT, but the Pact defeat. )

Mallyk is a Sylvari without Pale Tree and Ventari, but he is not an evil sentient plant. When you see the video, the sylvari seems like mindless minion in a Hive after some sort of mind control. Like Ceara and the zephyrite Sylvari ( Aurin ? ), there is a kind of ’’activation’’ that make them crazy.

Also, I think a Nightmare Sylvari is not a full corrupt minion, they can also be not even close to be minion, but, they can be attracted to Mordremoth like the Svanir are attracted to Jormag. There is a clear difference between Faolen and other nightmare courter, who have still a clear mind, and Ceara and Aurin, who where crazy like a rabid infected dog.

Speaking of Jormag, this is an exemple of dragon with two type of minion. The icebrood, classic one, and the Svanir. The Svanir are not proper minion, but Jormag corrupt them with a different way before turning them to Icebrood.

So, I , for one, think a dragon can have two type of minions, a classical one and some special card.

The Sons of Svanir are not actually dragon minions. They are misguided fools who believe that Jormag is the Spirit of Dragon, and venerate him as such. Very often, the Icebrood corrupt Sons of Svanir into becoming Icebrood, making the SoS a recruiting pool of sorts, but they are not dragon minions as yet.

Yes, they are not ‘’ proper ’’ dragon minion, but they still serve him in a way.

I think the Nightmare is to Mordremoth what the Cult of Svanir is for Jormag ( But the Nightmare didnt know about the dragon ) , EDIT and I think all Sylvari are sleeping agent, but the Nightmare courter are closer to their ’’true’’ identities.

So the egg of Glint might be useful to break the link between Sylvari and the dragon.

Slowpokeking.8720:

So the egg of Glint might be useful to break the link between Sylvari and the dragon.

. . . either that or Caithe just wants a crystal dragon omelette.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Slowpokeking.8720:

So the egg of Glint might be useful to break the link between Sylvari and the dragon.

. . . either that or Caithe just wants a crystal dragon omelette.

Kralkatorrik’s power might counter Mord’s?

Somebody throwing a tantrum is the best thing about this thread.

Talk about overreaction, in fact, there is a lot of overreaction.

It is quite, quite clear that not -all- sylvari have collectively gone mad and starting serving a dragon. I highly doubt that happened, the sylvari who were with the Pact fleet, however, were instantly taken over and directed to help destroy it because the dragon who has been stated to have the sphere of ‘Mind’ and is quite clearly behind other sylvari going mad was -right below them-.

It is clearly not their fault and there’s nothing they could do about it, and there were some exceptions no doubt, like obviously the player character if he/she is a sylvari, Trahearne, Caithe and most likely others as well.

So, seriously. This is by no means “Oh, all sylvari are evil now.” that is an overreaction just like “This is the worst thing ever!” is also an overreaction.

And for the record? I never really 100% believed sylvari being dragon minions was true, but I acknowledged it as potentially being the answer, along with them being the world fighting back against the dragons by creating the tree and thus them, and any other myriad of theories that there were.

But it’s happened, I find it interesting and that trailer is love. Especially Canach in Divinity’s Reach talking to Seraph/Nobles/Shining Blade/Other humans and the Pact soldiers fighting turned sylvari/Nightmare Courtiers.

We have received an update to the lore, an answer to a question that is often asked. Throwing a fit because it’s not the answer that was wanted or because you think it’s ‘not the correct way to tell the story’ (What gives you the right to say that?) is just not very thoughtful.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

…

You claim that there has never been any evidence for the “sylvari = dragon minions” theory, and yet you acknowledge that it has been speculated to be the case since release…do you think it’s possible that there have been hints and support for the theory since release, and that you just failed to see them?

Also, you don’t think your rejection of any proposed support for this theory has anything to do with your dislike of it as a story direction? Or is that just a coincidence?

Tamias.7059:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

…

You claim that there has never been any evidence for the “sylvari = dragon minions” theory, and yet you acknowledge that it has been speculated to be the case since release…do you think it’s possible that there have been hints and support for the theory since release, and that you just failed to see them?

Also, you don’t think your rejection of any proposed support for this theory has anything to do with your dislike of it as a story direction? Or is that just a coincidence?

He has a lot of knowledge, just is a bit too stubborn sometimes.

Now I understand the whole change of Scarlet.

The problem is evidence was never required. This obsession with it being needed is bizarre.

Speculating and theorising was all that we had because the answer was never given.

The answer has been given now.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

>being this kitten over being wrong on a guild wars 2 lore discussion forum

Konig Des Todes.2086:

lordkrall.7241:

Unfounded?
The fact that people have been discussing it since beta would suggest that there were indeed things pointing towards it, ergo not unfounded.

The supporters have been arguing it despite continuous evidence against the theory. All evidential support they had was debunked upon release.

But ArenaNet goes and make the most illogical, asinine, and ridiculous but “common” theory canon lore.

It’s pretty kitten clear this wasn’t the fate of the sylvari upon their creation or during release.

What’s next? The gods are the Elder Dragons after all?

CureForLiving.5360:

I don’t know, just because player were able to guess it doesn’t mean its bad. Remember the series Lost? You know where the writers were so determined to be smarter than the audience that they purposefully took the series into the most stupidest directs? Yeah, I’d rather ANet not do that.

Too late, they’re going in the most stupidest directions.

It’s just that they’re giving the vocal fans what they think they want.

The NPE was this as well.

It’s become clear to me: ArenaNet has someone or someones who’s too kitten sensative to their feelings over their work that they intentionally kitten it up in a way to make it into what the players claim to want.

What’s next, Anet? Kormir no longer is a god, it is the PC from GW1?

I think this “revelation” is utterly bullkitten because 1) the “theory” has been debunked time and time again by the game itself and 2) sylvari being dragon minions (purified or otherwise) has always come off to me as a terrible story decision to try and take, as not only are they nothing like the pre-established dragon minions, but I feel that this would destroy the uniqueness and the entire concept of the sylvari being “a brand new race born in a time of turmoil”. We have many stories that feature races, nations, and other groups struggling to survive a time of great turmoil in various degrees, but just about every single one of these races/nations/groups are well established, or are a rebirth, but never – or very, very rarely – the beginning of the race who do not know why they were born into a world on the brink of the end. To reveal that “why” as “you are descendants of the world-enders!” is just plain silly and unimaginative to me.

Malkavian.4516:

How exactly was that theory unfounded. When it all came down to it, it does justify how Sylvari can be consumed by nightmare and how it’s virtually impossible to bring them back to the light as they are originally made to be Mordremoth’s minions and that all Ventari did was to show them the path to the light.

The theory that Nightmare was Mordremoth’s corruption was an entirely different – and actually supported – theory that made some semblance of sense, unlike the “sylvari are dragon minions” ‘theory’ (and I use that word very loosely).
————————————————————————————————-
Dear ArenaNet, I don’t kittening care about your story anymore. Congratulations. You just managed to ruin one of your biggest fans since 2006, one of the biggest contributors to the wikis until last year, and someone who was eager to be part of your company until that same point last year. You had a chance to bring me back. I’ve been patient with you, hoping that despite the constant continuity errors that the Living World (especially Season 2) adds in, that you’d fix your path. Well, it’s obvious you didn’t. You decide, once more, to go with the “rule of cool” and ignore this fascinating thing called logic and continuity.

Congratulations, ArenaNet, and goodbye.

If you see me in-game, it isn’t for the story anymore. It’s for the mindless acts of killing pixels. Though Quake does a better job at that.

I haven’t even played Episode 8, but this single spoiler makes me not want to. To think I was actually looking forward to the update today. But no more. If I do play it, it’ll be to complete the Carapace and Luminescent armor, or to satiate a potentially inevitable curiosity about how, exactly, they decided the kitten up.

It’s been good knowing you lore community, but this is my last straw. If you see me on this forum again, it’d be habit and no more.

Edit: Oh, and it’s been said in an interview/by Caithe in TA story (I can never recall which and wiki doesn’t have all TA story dialogue up) that Faolain was, indeed, the first to encounter Nightmare – however, she didn’t fully fall into it until much alter, when Cadeyrn, already fallen to Nightmare, pulled her into it, where she then replaced him as leader of the Nightmare Court.

Oh hush, stop throwing a temper tantrum. Everything will be ok. Besides I actually like being a dragon minion. Everyone has opinions, this doesn’t mean the game is going down a bad route.

ThatOddOne.4387:

The problem is evidence was never required. This obsession with it being needed is bizarre.

Speculating and theorising was all that we had because the answer was never given.

The answer has been given now.

Sigh.

When someone makes a claim, they need to present evidence to back their claim and show it’s not just throwing darts at the board and hoping to hit the bulls-eye. Not showing evidence, or saying “I don’t need to, you prove me wrong”, makes it impossible to refute, or even discuss the matter.

Burden of proof is on the one making the claim. I fail to understand how this is “bizarre” thinking. It’s rational thinking, going from points of evidence to a conclusion. Otherwise it’s at best intuitive thinking, which has the potential to be correct but often without concrete basis other than “I just know”. At worst . . . it’s trolling people who actually care about the subject matter by posting things like “Caithe is Gwen’s secret lovechild” and declaring it fact.

. . . that gives me a thought. I’m going to fill a topic of nothing but nonsense claims like that one and not defend them, only keep insisting they are, in fact, completely valid and true “if you read the signs right”.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Tamias.7059:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

…

You claim that there has never been any evidence for the “sylvari = dragon minions” theory, and yet you acknowledge that it has been speculated to be the case since release…do you think it’s possible that there have been hints and support for the theory since release, and that you just failed to see them?

Also, you don’t think your rejection of any proposed support for this theory has anything to do with your dislike of it as a story direction? Or is that just a coincidence?

He has a lot of knowledge, just is a bit too stubborn sometimes.

Now I understand the whole change of Scarlet.

Actually it reminds me of something I watched (with popcorn bowl in hand) back in the old EverQuest days – some GMs playing an event left some half-thought hints at the end of a major event and it wasn’t followed up on . . . the potential of it ended when the people who threw the hints out there left the company and the story entered another direction. This, coupled with several beta-based lore bits which were discarded for public release, led to an incredibly well-crafted theory . . . based entirely on a nice foundation of things excluded from canon.

And when I say incredibly well-crafted theory, I’m not being my usual sarcastic self. It really was extremely well, but in the face of most beta lore being rendered “obsolete” and later developments, it got increasingly clear the theory was wrong. But as it couldn’t just be let go for all the work which was put into it (SEVERAL cross-server efforts of fact-finding and lore-searching, actually) . . . it just became the breaking point and the group left en masse when the theories got a deathblow in the . . . fifth? . . . expansion or so.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

why do such on a group of seeds (or a single seed)?

Prophecy? Remember who the Forgotten were working with.

Anyway, does anyone else feel the whole cave thing was a bit of a red herring? I mean, ignoring the fact that firstborn Sylvari apparently have shoot divine fire out of their noses when they sneeze (how else did all three of them get into the cave when we can’t?), the location itself, while cool looking, seemed to be irrelevant to the story. The events we saw and the followup boss fight could have pretty much happened anywhere.

perilisk.1874:

ignoring the fact that firstborn Sylvari apparently have shoot divine fire out of their noses when they sneeze (how else did all three of them get into the cave when we can’t?),.

Said in the first instance that Wynne had a forgotten seal (presumably the same one we end up with) which is what was supposed to be used to get in. Our fire solution was just a slapdash workaround since we didn’t have access to the real thing.

Although that begs the question of how the Priory got a hold of the ashes of Turai Ossa’s son (who stayed in Elona and didn’t accompany his father on his botched Ascension), but doesn’t have a single one of the seals forgotten dropped like pocket change in the Crystal Desert.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Although that begs the question of how the Priory got a hold of the ashes of Turai Ossa’s son (who stayed in Elona and didn’t accompany his father on his botched Ascension), but doesn’t have a single one of the seals forgotten dropped like pocket change in the Crystal Desert.

That doesn’t beg the question, it raises the question.

As for how . . . it is possible he had a son in exile? After all, I seem to recall a lot of what happened to the pilgrims is unspoken of aside from small bits and pieces.

And the seals? I bet there aren’t many which survived. As common as summoning stones were back in the day, they’re spoken of like rare antiquities now. Even the Fire Imp one which a lot of people apparently had, hmmm?

Man it sucks to see people treat Konig Des Todes like this… I know you’re going to hate it Konig but don’t leave the lore!!

There’s probably less than 10 people that are as knowledgeable about the GW universe as him. I even understand where he’s coming from. The reveal was really overly dramatic. It’s similar to the feeling of watching a Transformers movie. It’s just flat out disappointing the direction the story is going for that Hollywood appeal.

Being proven wrong is nothing more than peanuts compared to seeing the GW universe becoming predictable or uninspiring (Kormir becomes god! Ta-Da!; Sylvari are actually dragon minions! Ta-Da!).

blakdoxa.7520:

Man it sucks to see people treat Konig Des Todes like this… I know you’re going to hate it Konig but don’t leave the lore!!

There’s probably less than 10 people that are as knowledgeable about the GW universe as him. I even understand where he’s coming from. The reveal was really overly dramatic. It’s similar to the feeling of watching a Transformers movie. It’s just flat out disappointing the direction the story is going for that Hollywood appeal.

Being proven wrong is nothing more than peanuts compared to seeing the GW universe becoming predictable or uninspiring (Kormir becomes god! Ta-Da!; Sylvari are actually dragon minions! Ta-Da!).

This argument is done… They didn’t go in that direction, they already committed to it ages ago. Angel McCoy said it was in the first concepts for the Sylvari, to Arena Net, they have always been dragon minions, Arena Net didn’t take the “popular route”, they already wrote that to be the case, multiple years ago. Konig might be disappointed, but that’s coming straight from Arena Net, it was intended the entire time. She even congratulates those that figured it out before today

Source:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/ANet-Writers/first#post4692411

Mushroomz.4280:

blakdoxa.7520:

Man it sucks to see people treat Konig Des Todes like this… I know you’re going to hate it Konig but don’t leave the lore!!

There’s probably less than 10 people that are as knowledgeable about the GW universe as him. I even understand where he’s coming from. The reveal was really overly dramatic. It’s similar to the feeling of watching a Transformers movie. It’s just flat out disappointing the direction the story is going for that Hollywood appeal.

Being proven wrong is nothing more than peanuts compared to seeing the GW universe becoming predictable or uninspiring (Kormir becomes god! Ta-Da!; Sylvari are actually dragon minions! Ta-Da!).

This argument is done… They didn’t go in that direction, they already committed to it ages ago. Angel McCoy said it was in the first concepts for the Sylvari, to Arena Net, they have always been dragon minions, Arena Net didn’t take the “popular route”, they already wrote that to be the case, multiple years ago. Konig might be disappointed, but that’s coming straight from Arena Net, it was intended the entire time. She even congratulates those that figured it out before today

Source:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/ANet-Writers/first#post4692411

Even if they want to assume it is a lie by Arenanet, they pretty much don’t have a choice but to accept it.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Although that begs the question of how the Priory got a hold of the ashes of Turai Ossa’s son (who stayed in Elona and didn’t accompany his father on his botched Ascension), but doesn’t have a single one of the seals forgotten dropped like pocket change in the Crystal Desert.

That doesn’t beg the question, it raises the question.

As for how . . . it is possible he had a son in exile? After all, I seem to recall a lot of what happened to the pilgrims is unspoken of aside from small bits and pieces.

And the seals? I bet there aren’t many which survived. As common as summoning stones were back in the day, they’re spoken of like rare antiquities now. Even the Fire Imp one which a lot of people apparently had, hmmm?

Ah, yes, my mistake. As for exile, it’s possible, but the ashes are Kunai’s, and what we know of him is that he was left to rule after his father took off and that his next of kin ruled after him. The last suggests he wasn’t driven out in disgrace, so unless he too had a benign reason to abandon his duties, he should have died in Kourna.

Mushroomz.4280:

blakdoxa.7520:

Man it sucks to see people treat Konig Des Todes like this… I know you’re going to hate it Konig but don’t leave the lore!!

There’s probably less than 10 people that are as knowledgeable about the GW universe as him. I even understand where he’s coming from. The reveal was really overly dramatic. It’s similar to the feeling of watching a Transformers movie. It’s just flat out disappointing the direction the story is going for that Hollywood appeal.

Being proven wrong is nothing more than peanuts compared to seeing the GW universe becoming predictable or uninspiring (Kormir becomes god! Ta-Da!; Sylvari are actually dragon minions! Ta-Da!).

This argument is done… They didn’t go in that direction, they already committed to it ages ago. Angel McCoy said it was in the first concepts for the Sylvari, to Arena Net, they have always been dragon minions, Arena Net didn’t take the “popular route”, they already wrote that to be the case, multiple years ago. Konig might be disappointed, but that’s coming straight from Arena Net, it was intended the entire time. She even congratulates those that figured it out before today

Source:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/ANet-Writers/first#post4692411

And this is just to be believe as the writers now are likely not the same writers that making up the story about the Sylvari after they were solidified as one of the new races in Tyria.
Might I add that within the game itself Anet has not held to some of their design decisions from the start and flipped them or changed in some sort of way. The story is not safe either as shown through the obvious continuity issues or retcons.
To believe that this reveal was intended from the beginning is simply ridiculous.

Never had a doubt, even once huh!

Well not much can be done about it. It’s still infuriating…

I don’t mind the revelation that the sylvari born of the Pale Tree were intended to be minions. If I could say anything, I think that open-mindedness would have helped us all to appreciate the theory that they were, much sooner. I for one turned away from it due to the counter-arguments of others on this forum and although I know that some points raised against it were valid, there was never any definitive evidence for or against it.
If anything, the challenges laid down by the Anet lore team remind me to “be ready for anything” and try to encourage other players who have unique perspectives on aspects of the lore.

P.S. I don’t want anyone on these forums to leave

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Ah, yes, my mistake. As for exile, it’s possible, but the ashes are Kunai’s, and what we know of him is that he was left to rule after his father took off and that his next of kin ruled after him. The last suggests he wasn’t driven out in disgrace, so unless he too had a benign reason to abandon his duties, he should have died in Kourna.

I haven’t gotten that far, yet, so . . . still speculating.

Divine Fire was the name of the “buff” which you were given at Augury Rock, by the way. Interesting tidbit.

blakdoxa.7520:

And this is just to be believe as the writers now are likely not the same writers that making up the story about the Sylvari after they were solidified as one of the new races in Tyria.
Might I add that within the game itself Anet has not held to some of their design decisions from the start and flipped them or changed in some sort of way. The story is not safe either as shown through the obvious continuity issues or retcons.
To believe that this reveal was intended from the beginning is simply ridiculous.

Never had a doubt, even once huh!

Well not much can be done about it. It’s still infuriating…

They did the same stuff in GW1, with lore in Nightfall. You think it’s unique to this incarnation of ArenaNet? Heh. I had this conversation once before here on the forums – when you work on a project like this, and you have to move a story forwards but there’s something in the way, you have two options. Either you drop that idea and start over, or you move something so it works.

Guild Wars has a mechanism for that – most of the lore is only revealed via in-character bits and pieces. Anything not firsthand witnessed by the player, but referred to them secondhand or recorded and revealed later? It’s potentially inaccurate. As mechanisms go it’s a bit . . . clumsy, one could say. But at least they’re taking cues from Tolkein on that (Need I remind you about Bilbo’s ‘winning’ of the One Ring, and how it had been significantly different in the first runs of “The Hobbit”?) I haven’t run across a writer which I like who hasn’t relied on the “unreliable narrator” or similar. Timothy Zahn gets a good amount of mileage out of it, in fact. Repeatedly.

Regardless, if we go back to the top and you immediately disbelieve it when one of the writers says “this was rather the plan” and you go “nope, not buying it” . . . why in heck should they bother trying to have a discourse? You’re giving off the aura of not believing anything you haven’t already decided, or fits into your idea of how things are; it would seem to anyone looking you cannot be convinced otherwise, and must pursue your own conclusions in the face of someone telling you otherwise.

Though as I noted above – there’s really no proof which would be a silver bullet to put that skepticism to bed if it’s founded deeply enough. At some point you have to decide if you’re going to disbelieve everything they say or not. Plenty of people here can make a case where that’s a completely rational stance to make.

. . . but it’s not healthy and it doesn’t lead to any meaningful discussion.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Ah, yes, my mistake. As for exile, it’s possible, but the ashes are Kunai’s, and what we know of him is that he was left to rule after his father took off and that his next of kin ruled after him. The last suggests he wasn’t driven out in disgrace, so unless he too had a benign reason to abandon his duties, he should have died in Kourna.

I haven’t gotten that far, yet, so . . . still speculating.

Divine Fire was the name of the “buff” which you were given at Augury Rock, by the way. Interesting tidbit.

No, Kunai’s history doesn’t come from the patch. It was in the Nightfall manual. In-game all we get is ‘These are the ashes of Kunai Ossa’.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Ah, yes, my mistake. As for exile, it’s possible, but the ashes are Kunai’s, and what we know of him is that he was left to rule after his father took off and that his next of kin ruled after him. The last suggests he wasn’t driven out in disgrace, so unless he too had a benign reason to abandon his duties, he should have died in Kourna.

I haven’t gotten that far, yet, so . . . still speculating.

Divine Fire was the name of the “buff” which you were given at Augury Rock, by the way. Interesting tidbit.

No, Kunai’s history doesn’t come from the patch. It was in the Nightfall manual. In-game all we get is ‘These are the ashes of Kunai Ossa’.

That’s half of what I mean. I haven’t played the patch yet. Still working through “Tangled Paths”.

It’s late and I’m going to ramble. Possibly incoherently.

When Jean Grey killed herself to save the X-men and the whole dang Marvel Universe from, well, herself, I thought that was the greatest danged comic book story I’d ever read. And it was! At the time. Then a couple of geniuses at Marvel came along with the notion that it wasn’t Jean Grey who made that ultimate sacrifice, it was some thing that just thought it was her. Jean Grey was alive and well, snoozing in a pod at the bottom of a bay. The company that had produced that great story turned right around and trashed it, for no reason other than that they could, and hey, since that story was so great and all, why stop there? It’s comic books! Nobody stays dead!

The Return of the Jedi? On the heels of The Empire Strikes Back? Live teddy bears clobbering stormtroopers? Hah hah! No. The Special Editions? Han didn’t shoot first anymore? Bah hah hah! The prequels and the midichlorian things? Bwahahaha!

Comic books, movie franchises — and MMOs. These things aren’t fixed. They’re not stable. They’re not permanent. Generally, they’re not even under the control of their original creators. They are subject to change at the drop of the proverbial hat, subject to the whims and whimsey of whoever comes along with some bright idea, regardless of any actual luminescence involved, regardless of what’s been established as canon. What’s lore today, set in concrete, immutable, may be so much fluff and nonsense tomorrow. Today’s lore might get retconned right out ye olde window. Did I say ‘might’? Nah. It’s inevitable.

Ask Batman. He used to carry a gun, ya know. Then he carried anti-shark bat spray. Then he was all gloomy and grim. Then he had bat nips on his costume. Holy make up your minds, bat-managers.

The point being, it’s pointless to hold onto anything in these things, because anything can happen, at any time regardless of what’s been ‘established’, because it’s only ‘established’ until it becomes inconvenient, or someone forgets, or just doesn’t care. Because these things are works in progress, under the control of boards and committees and sales people and the five, er six gods know who else, and because the creative forces behind these things are just as unstable and impermanent as the things themselves because people have this tendency to come and go, and so and so wants it this way, then whatshisname wants it some other way, and we end up with big holes in the ground where something Canthan ‘may’ once have been, and absolutely ridiculous notions that plant people have internal organs so identically identical to the internal organs of humans that you can kill one by stabbing her in the heart (and she probably even exhales carbon dioxide), and that an air strike striking an area inhabited by friend and foe alike won’t singe even a single hair on the heads of the good guys.

TL;DR — Arguing MMO lore is like trying to defend Ascalon Settlement: you may stop everything that approaches whatever gate you’re defending, but it doesn’t matter because the centaurs are just gonna spawn behind you.

Honestly here I was all excited about the theory finally being confirmed, I was hoping that this could be a spring board for us to re-explore so any of the old theories hand half theories that have cropped up over the years regarding elder dragons, dragon minions, dragon corruption and the sylvari as a whole…. I guess however the thing people were more focused on doing was playing a game of cognitive dissonance

In my opinion, the fact that sylvari are dragon minions is interesting and unlike Konig, I believe it had some support – especially the theory about Ronan and Ventari influence on Pale Tree, her later support by blocking some part of Sylvari’s minds. It also makes sense why the Soundless were most affected after Mordy awoke. Also, dragon minion attributes change depending on the dragon (destroyers generally do not think, unlike icebrood or risen). I believe that Pale Tree will have a “moment of truth” with us in the future.

What I utterly hate however, is all the Divine Fire nonsense… really immersion breaking. I also didn’t like how Ogden belittled the Human Gods in his dialogues. I hated the crystal-desert-missions-wanna-be, and pretending we have obtained the fire of the human gods just by summoning an Echo (echo! not even a real ghost) of Turai. I really wanted one day to visit Throne of Pellentia once, or fight my Doppleganger, but in Crystal Desert :/

It felt like we got Divine Fire in reward from Turai – a miserable failer, who did not ascend. We should obtain the Divine Fire from the gods themselves – in Crystal Desert. This is so bad. Even worse than setting a casual portal to Glint’s Lair for plot convenience.