Guild Wars 2

Slowpokeking.8720:

So what happened to that giant flower in the trailer?

The one that we destroy when we complete the new world boss encounter?

Slowpokeking.8720:

So what happened to that giant flower in the trailer?

You mean the one from our scouting mission way back when? It’s the boss of the Silverwastes meta.

Shinzan.2908:

No offense meant but the above rebuttals could be summed up as “Sylvari/Pale Tree are not like other dragon minions”. Like you are going through every random note or statement looking for contradictions while missing the bigger picture.

I don’t think you understood my argument, so I’ll put it in the shortest means possible here – if you care for more, then there’s above. This is a simple logical 101 argument: “If A + B then C”. We have:

A. There are 7 similarities across destroyers, icebrood, branded, risen, and non-sylvari mordrem.
B. The sylvari do not share these similarities.

Therefore, logic follows that:
C. The sylvari are not dragon minions.

My point, here, is that the reveal that sylvari are dragon minions is illogical given our evidence. While appearance, intelligence, and the hive mind can be argued to be flimsy in both directions, that’s still 4 pieces of evidence that makes the outcome illogical.

The most critical, however, is the diet. The very nature of the Elder Dragons – and in turn their dragon minions – and this includes mordrem (see Episode 2 attacks on Fort Salma and Concordia) – is to consume magic. Sylvari do not consume magic.

This in turn goes to my final point: If sylvari were intended from the beginning to be dragon minions, then ArenaNet FAR out of their way provide evidence that this isn’t the case. So far that it becomes a lore inconsistency.

Squee.7829:

The mordrem and Sylvari look as similar to me as the Destroyer harpies vs Destroyer trolls in a sense that they look absolutely nothing alike aside from the material they’re made of. Both destroyers appear to be made of lava and stone, whereas the mordrem seem to be primarily made of bark and leaves (and maybe a calcium based skull here and there http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Mordrem.jpg). The Sylvari also appear to be made of bark and leaves: http://amd-icbm.com/icbm/media/uploads/2011/08/WhintSeries.jpg

By your argument, treants and all GW1 plant enemies are mordrem, embers are destroyers, ice elementals are icebrood, and Palawa Joko is a risen. It just doesn’t work that way.

And destroyer harpies and destroyer trolls are the most similar – they have the same oval chest, they have similar legs and arms – it’s the tail/wings and the head that differs mainly. But I do not speak of shape, I speak of the materials. Every single destroyer is made out of obsidian stone (per EotN manual) and basalt (per EoD) that is smooth and polished looking – you will never find a rough, rigid , grainier destroyer (excluding the exceedingly unusual disc destroyers in GW1). When destroyers die all of them become cooled instantly (very unlike lava) where their lava becomes this pinkish-gray flesh-like appearance.

All risen are gray-skinned and rotten. This is in fact a heavy point of the novels that describe risen conversion – that their skin grays from whatever color (pale, tanned, black, furred) it was before. The only exceptions are the risen wraiths, abominations, and knights.

You will never see an emerald branded. You will never see a ruby branded. You will never see a clear branded. All branded are gray skinned, black stoned (basalt per EoD – just like destroyers, but a bit rougher, not as smooth or polished looking), and purple shimmering crystal (that looks more like a transparent container holding purple liquid tbh).

So there are exceptions, but they’re the unusual ones – whereas sylvari are the most usual.

Black/green thrashers, menders, and teragriffs hold similar appearance; wolves (the flower part, nto the corpse part) and the yellow thrashers hold a common appearance. Husks may be the odd-man out, as we don’t even know how the Nightmare Court make them, and troll is… tough to say.

Squee.7829:

And we really don’t know enough about how dragons work. We have enough precedents to say what they have in common, but nothing about most of them personally, but each one is unique, and more importantly, very distant. The only ones we’ve actually seen firsthand were Kralkatorric and Zhaitan, and only one of them had any time to actually DO anything before anyone saw it.

I think my long post in response to Rius rather proves that we do know plenty about how dragons work. And that wasn’t even everything – just the similarities between the minions.

Squee.7829:

To say they’re acting outside of x parameters is pointless. No one ever said they all had to make things the exact same way.

This isn’t true either. In the aforementioned twitch tv video (kitten you Anet for deleting it), Jeff cut off Ree when she was talking about Glint and Rotscale saying that they’re very different. Jeff cut her off saying that “no that’s not right” and to paraphrase: they are different, but yet they are the same.

Jeff actually said this a few times – both about dragon champions and the Elder Dragons themselves.

“They are similar, yet they are different.” “They are different, yet they are similar.”

Interpret it how you will, but to me this means “there will be aspects shared across all dragons and their minions, and aspects seen only by one – maybe two – but never most.” And this is what I’ve been talking about. We actually see these similarities and differences between them all INCLUDING MORDREM. But the sylvari don’t have these similarities – any of them!

Despite how enigmatic the dragons are, we still see clear similarities and differences.

Primordus prefers corruption stone, but yet he is capable of corrupting living beings. This goes for all other elder dragons we’ve seen heavy evidence of – Jormag prefers having his prospective minions come to him willingly before corruption, but is capable of forcibly corrupting, he can and does corrupt corpses, and he can and does corrupt the land and elementals. Zhaitan prefers corrupting corpses, but he can corrupt the living, he corrupts plants, and he corrupts the land (Orr).

Squee.7829:

I’d also go into say we know the reason the Sylvari are so different is because of factors we already know, i.e. the Ventari tablets and being buried on dead people, but I have issues with that too. One being the aforementioned minion freeing ritual that SHOULD take lots of time, energy, and knowledge. A stone tablet is simply not enough. Also, why is Malyck also human shaped? Who else is going around planting those seeds on dead people?

Does your religion affect the fact you eat plants and animals?
Does your religion affect the fact your white/black/asian/other?
Does your religion affect the fact that you don’t have telepathy?

Why should it for sylvari, when dragon minions are known to only be cleansed via powerful rituals (as stated by Ange McCoy herself) – which I’ve pointed out with a source already.

Sorry, but the ventari tablet idea does not float.

If you intend to keep this up, please actually read my posts and the sources I cite.

DorDor.8617:

You stated in your previous posts that you didn’t believe this was the writers’ plan for the sylvari from conception.

What I’ve been trying to say is that it doesn’t appear to be the plan from conception – there’s too much evidence against and too few for. The clues only appear as such in hindsight, and that’s an easy thing to manipulate – as a writer myself, I know.

DorDor.8617:

Remember that in the same instance, we’d just played through a vision of a potential future. The Pale Tree (also like Glint, funnily enough) has some degree of foresight. It wasn’t a sixth sense, it was a prophecy that unfolded just a few seconds later. But when Mordremoth awoke, her exact words were “I’ve known since the moment we’ve heard the roar”. Implying that before the roar, she didn’t know, ruling out prophecy.

All her line really says is “I was able to tell that the roar did not come from one of the other four Elder Dragons”. And that vision of the future was 1) a possible future and 2) only about Orr.

DorDor.8617:

These were seeds with a clear connection to the Forgotten.

You’ll have to explain this one to me, for I see nothing to hint to this.

DorDor.8617:

I’ve always been taught that the rule of thumb is to linger only on stuff that will be relevant later.

This is so for books, but not typically so for RPGs – especially MMOs expected to last a long time. So long as you can keep continuity, you should flesh out as much as you can when you can, so that the players feel more immersion into the game – immersion is, traditionally, one of the most important aspects of a roleplaying game.

DorDor.8617:

I’ve never seen anything in-game to support the idea of rank between grunt and champion. How do you know that the ‘lieutenants’ aren’t just grunts, and that grunts have more autonomy than you previously thought? I mean, many icebrood and branded don’t even have mouths (they’re iced/crystaled over), so they can’t exactly communicate with us like the Risen can.

Those I classify as “lieutenants” are capable of commanding other minions – and sometimes killing them for their own gain (Kitah Conjurer – an oft bugged event – is the perfect example in this, as he sacrifices, if you let him, his assistants from life to heal him and make him more powerful; but while strong, and outright stated to be stronger than most risen, he is not a dragon champion). Grunts we never see capable of holding conversations – the most we see are risen grunts shouting things like “kitten your eyes” and “everyone, come!” – while lieutenants often do.

DorDor.8617:

Zhaitan’s not the only dragon to do that. Icebrood quaggan, for example, still use spears (even though they have perfectly capable clawas and fangs) and are capable of speaking (they have aggro and death barks similar to Risen thralls), and Mordrem wolves use the tactics of an actual wolf (attacking in packs, attacking flanks [as the game tells us, they do more damage when attacking from the side], and even protecting corrupted cubs [go to Desperate Passage; there’s a regular-sized Mordrem wolf walking around with a group of noticeably smaller Mordrem wolves, it’s actually kind of cute in a really creepy way]) instead of just mindlessly murdering everything they encounter. It’s just more noticeable with Zhaitan, because Zhaitan deals almost exclusively in undeath and of all the Elder Dragons, we’ve interacted with him the most.

The icebrood quaggans are an interesting case for the aggro lines, however they are not the only icebrood with weapons – in fact, almost every icebrood has a weapon. Also, mechanically, wolves don’t attack from the flank. And that example isn’t really protecting corrupted cubs, as I see it – and all mordrem wolves do mindlessly murder everything they encounter (I’ve seen many times where a mordrem wolf, or icebrood colossus, will venture halfway across the area they’re in just to kill an ambient rabbit or such).

DorDor.8617:

Yeah, they’ve all been very single-minded about killing the Elder Dragons. But in a way, so are the sylvari. Many of them (I don’t think it’s all, but I’m not sure) are given a Wyld Hunt, a goal that they spend their entire lives trying to complete. Talking to the Wyld Hunt Valiants in Brisban, they all seem extremely driven. Their lust for Destroyer blood (magma?) seems like it works along the same lines—compelling them, but not outright forcing them. Also, if dwarves are all ‘lieutenants’, why can’t the sylvari be the same?

Firstly, no not all sylvari are given Wyld Hunts – and not all Wyld Hunts relate to the dragons. Sylvari goals as a race are very wide-spread, and the Wyld Hunts we see? Some are after protecting nature, some are trying to create diplomacy with the races, some are trying to improve housing. Hardly single-minded.

And the example for dwarves was just a comparison example. Dwarves aren’t dragon minions – so naturally they’d function differently. They don’t (as far as we know) consume magic, for example.

DorDor.8617:

Yeah, it’s been stated that Destroyers are a complete, literal hive-mind. But that actually supports the theory a bit, because not all dragon minions are on that level. As noted above, Risen, Mordrem, and Icebrood have been seen wielding weapons, doing things independently, and even talking. Destroyers can’t do any of that. Either they’re killing or they’re looking for something to kill. There’s a sliding scale here, and the sylvari are just much closer to ‘autonomous’ than the others.

Well with the talking bit, we never see any form of construct dragon minion talk – likely because they literally and physically can’t. But we do see destroyers wielding weapons (harpies in GW2, the vast majority of them in GW1), and we do see them acting alone at times – but like icebrood, branded, and mordrem, their “acting alone” is literally just wandering about until they see something not of their kind – which they slaughter remorselessly.

DorDor.8617:

I’ve never seen evidence that the Dream is physical. In fact, there’s quite a bit against it. For example: new sylvari players are both killing the Shadow and growing in our pods at the same time, implying a vision instead of an actual fight. If the Dream is a physical place, where is it? The Mists? Another plane of existence? How do you know Light in the Darkness wasn’t just a vision inside of a mindscape instead of being physically teleported into a facsimile of Orr? And then there’s the memory seeds. We’re going into the Dream during Seeds of Truth (The memory seeds are tapping into the collective knowledge the sylvari passively store in the Dream, and there’s a palette swap during the flashbacks that all Dream-related missions have), and yet Marjory mentioned guarding us, implying an out-of-body experience. Maybe it’s not necessarily in the players’ heads, but it’s not a physical place either.

How do I know A Light in the Darkness wasn’t a vision?

The portal before you is a passage into the Dream. There, you will see glimpses of the past, the present, and the future. From A LIght in the Darkness.

You don’t have portals into something that’s just what you’re seeing or thinking. But it is not like Tyria – it is not a part of Tyria. Also from A Light in the Darkness:

The Dream is not reality, <Character name>. It is made of memory, aether, and powerful magic. Even I do not understand it.

What is it? We don’t know. But it’s more than simply the sylvari consciousness. We physically enter there, but is not reality. This is one of many reasons why I suspect it to be part of the Mists.

DorDor.8617:

Well, to my knowledge, dwarves don’t have a sixth sense regarding their proximity to other dwarves, either (and dwarves seem to be the best comparison here). And the Icebrood hive-mind used in Edge of Destiny didn’t seem to involve a sixth sense either; it was just a standing order from Jormag/the Dragonspawn not to attack Icebrood or their allies (the Sons of Svanir). When the Dragonspawn’s hold over them was broken, there was nothing compelling them to remain civil. And even if they did have a sixth sense to detect sylvari cut off from the Dream, it wouldn’t work on the Nightmare Court (who are still technically a part of the Dream, just the run-down, nasty part of it). But it would work on Soundless.

Read the link I provided please. It outright states they had such.

DorDor.8617:

I’m not quite sure what to make of the White Stag, to be honest. There is a little theory I’m working on now, though. Basically: If the Pale Tree functions like a freed dragon champion, she might be capable of spreading her own special brand of corruption. That corruption tagged the White Stag, bringing it into the collective consciousness. I still don’t know how it’s able to enter the Dream at will, though.

Unfortunately, the dialogue for talking to the Pale Tree at the end of the White Stag arc isn’t on the wiki, but if memory serves me right she states she isn’t related to the White Stag.

Squee.7829:

By your argument, treants and all GW1 plant enemies are mordrem, embers are destroyers, ice elementals are icebrood, and Palawa Joko is a risen. It just doesn’t work that way.

I’m aware this is a complete aside, (and I hesitate to mention it insofar as the Lore team might actually make it cannon, and that would be horrifying), but do we actually have any background on Pawala? AFAIK, he showed up in Elona and started taking things over until Turai and co. fought him, and he challenged Pawala to single combat and won, then does all the pre-gw1, Turai sealing off Pawala’s body.

I would truly, truly hope that Pawala weren’t a “freed” Risen champion (I feel like it would ruin his character to be just another ED device, I already don’t really care for ED), but I don’t know of anything in the gw universe that can make something persist after death with the strength and intelligence that Pawala is said to possess. Obviously, the Scepter of Orr has some effect on lifespan in humans, but unless Pawala had the sister staff at some point or something…

On the Forgotten: There are only two instances that we know of in which a dragon minion gained/regained free will. One is Glint. The other is Twitchy the Chicken, when we recreated the Forgotten ritual. Before you mention Mawdrey, remember that it isn’t the same plant as the Mysterious Vine, only an ancestor (and before you mention the fact that minions can’t reproduce, remember that there are caveats to that rule). Plus, Wynne, the only sylari that knows the Pale Tree’s true origin, not only knows the location of the Forgotten cave in the Silverwastes, but also had the key to get in (Divine Fire). And in addition to that, the Forgotten cave is in the same general area as the cave where Ronan found the Pale Tree’s seed in the first place. In addition to that, this suspiciously-located cave is the only known Forgotten ruin outside of the Crystal Desert. Could be a coincidence, and you’re well within reason to believe it is, but I don’t think it is.

Regarding lieutenants: Here’s the thing, though: any in-game grunt that ever holds an extended conversation with us will probably be automatically moved to the lieutenant category instead of being used as a counterpoint, because there are only two differences between grunts and lieutenants, and the other one isn’t a reliable control. It also ignores Sea of Sorrows, where two clear grunts (one was a cabin boy and the other was just killed and corrupted a few seconds ago; neither commanded squat at the time) had extended conversations with the heroes, trying to convince them to surrender and join Team Zhaitan. Both of them used full sentences and referenced their past histories with Cobiah and his norn pal, things that grunts don’t have the brainpower to do, according to your definition. The ‘lieutenant’ classification doesn’t clean up dragonlore at all, only creates more problems. It should be dropped and its occupants moved to champion and grunt.

On Mordrem wolves: Mechanically, you’re wrong. During the early Season 2 missions (where husks and wolves were often paired together), I’d constantly get immobilized by husks, only to watch helplessly as my character got finished off by the wolves. And more than once, wolves approached me from the front only to go around me and attack me from behind for that extra damage/cripple effect. It didn’t happen every time, but it happened often enough to notice a pattern. As for the wolf pups, they’re walking around behind rock cover at the far end of Desperate Passage, as far from the Pact as they can possibly be and yet, just a short walk away from Blue Oasis. Why don’t they join in the attack, or move somewhere where they’re more likely to encounter non-corrupted things?

On Wyld Hunts: I never said all Wyld Hunts were dragon-related, only that sylvari with Wyld Hunts devote their entire lives to carrying them out. Valiants tasked with taking out the Sinister Triad packed their stuff and moved to Brisban. Trahearne devoted every waking hour of his life to studying Orr. Wynne died to keep her secret. The only Valiants that don’t do this are the ones that intentionally defy destiny by joining the Soundless or the Nightmare Court. And I’d like to point out that there a few dwarves you’re forgetting—the Stone Summit. Not only did they not join the fight against the dragons, they tried to harness the Great Destroyer’s power to use against the Deldrimor. That wasn’t very single-minded of them.

Regarding the Dream: Read that quote again. The Pale Tree specifically says it ’isn’t a reality’, ruling out the Mists (which are described by the Wiki as a ‘proto-reality’) or, in fact, a physical plane of existence of at all (going by Wikipedia’s definition, where physical existence is the deciding factor). As for the portal… ever seen Tron? In that movie, the hero was sucked into a computer program. Even though his body was physically gone, he was still running as a strip of sentient data. And even if the portal did take us somewhere physical, it doesn’t explain away the Seeds of Truth flashbacks or the opening instance for sylvari players (where we were physically in our pod while fighting the Shadow). The Pale Tree not knowing much about the Dream is more difficult to explain away, but I doubt she knows much about the specific side effects of the Forgotten ritual, the Rite of the Great Dwarf, or any other nigh arcane magical balderdash that has anything to with this. The ritual that was performed on her was cast long before she was even born. As for the existence of the White Stag… no idea. None whatsoever.

Pinkunicorn of Dethecus.3217:

Squee.7829:

By your argument, treants and all GW1 plant enemies are mordrem, embers are destroyers, ice elementals are icebrood, and Palawa Joko is a risen. It just doesn’t work that way.

I’m aware this is a complete aside, (and I hesitate to mention it insofar as the Lore team might actually make it cannon, and that would be horrifying), but do we actually have any background on Pawala? AFAIK, he showed up in Elona and started taking things over until Turai and co. fought him, and he challenged Pawala to single combat and won, then does all the pre-gw1, Turai sealing off Pawala’s body.

I would truly, truly hope that Pawala weren’t a “freed” Risen champion (I feel like it would ruin his character to be just another ED device, I already don’t really care for ED), but I don’t know of anything in the gw universe that can make something persist after death with the strength and intelligence that Pawala is said to possess. Obviously, the Scepter of Orr has some effect on lifespan in humans, but unless Pawala had the sister staff at some point or something…

I’m reasonably sure that Palawa Joko was just an abnormally powerful/sociopathic necromancer that figured out how to turn himself into a Lich. And I’m positive that he’s not Zhaitan’s champion, because he definitely wasn’t around during the last rise (being a pesky human, and all), and his first brush with recorded history was hundreds of years before Zhaitan stirred. He could have tapped into the power of a dormant dragon like the asura did in Eye of the North to give himself that extra power boost, though. Or used a slain dragon champion, like Duncan the Black tried to do.

DorDor.8617:

Pinkunicorn of Dethecus.3217:

Squee.7829:

By your argument, treants and all GW1 plant enemies are mordrem, embers are destroyers, ice elementals are icebrood, and Palawa Joko is a risen. It just doesn’t work that way.

I’m aware this is a complete aside, (and I hesitate to mention it insofar as the Lore team might actually make it cannon, and that would be horrifying), but do we actually have any background on Pawala? AFAIK, he showed up in Elona and started taking things over until Turai and co. fought him, and he challenged Pawala to single combat and won, then does all the pre-gw1, Turai sealing off Pawala’s body.

I would truly, truly hope that Pawala weren’t a “freed” Risen champion (I feel like it would ruin his character to be just another ED device, I already don’t really care for ED), but I don’t know of anything in the gw universe that can make something persist after death with the strength and intelligence that Pawala is said to possess. Obviously, the Scepter of Orr has some effect on lifespan in humans, but unless Pawala had the sister staff at some point or something…

I’m reasonably sure that Palawa Joko was just an abnormally powerful/sociopathic necromancer that figured out how to turn himself into a Lich. And I’m positive that he’s not Zhaitan’s champion, because he definitely wasn’t around during the last rise (being a pesky human, and all), and his first brush with recorded history was hundreds of years before Zhaitan stirred. He could have tapped into the power of a dormant dragon like the asura did in Eye of the North to give himself that extra power boost, though. Or used a slain dragon champion, like Duncan the Black tried to do.

Thank you for putting my mind at ease. Didn’t take into account the whole humans-weren’t-here-the-last-time thing, which is pretty silly of me.

Said it before; if I was Mordey I’d be ashamed to have Sylvari as dragon minions.

Compared to Icebrood, Risen, Branded, and Destroyers, they’re just so freaking lame.

What sort of self respecting evil incarnation of destruction has a bunch of namby pamby hippies as minions? Even the nightmare court are lame. Bunch of whining emos with their unrequited love and their mommy issues.

If I was going to have one of the races as minions I’d go for the Charr. At least they look evil, hell, they were designed that way. The Charr know how to be bad guys.

kitten it, even the Skritt would make better minions than the Sylvari.

I wonder if the existence of Nightmare is an indication that whatever aids the tree in withstanding Mordremoth’s corruption is not as effective as, say, the forgotten ritual in Arah.

So in Pale Tree’s vision, what are those purple crystals?

Slowpokeking.8720:

So in Pale Tree’s vision, what are those purple crystals?

I’m not sure but if I had to guess, I’d say the long lost flavor of rock candy Nicholas the Traveler never gave out to anyone.

At a guess, Glint’s lair, but I don’t know if we know for sure.

DorDor.8617:

On the Forgotten: There are only two instances that we know of in which a dragon minion gained/regained free will. One is Glint. The other is Twitchy the Chicken, when we recreated the Forgotten ritual. Before you mention Mawdrey, remember that it isn’t the same plant as the Mysterious Vine, only an ancestor (and before you mention the fact that minions can’t reproduce, remember that there are caveats to that rule).

All the theories that were created to try to debunk the Sylvari aren’t minions are based on “rules” created only by players. How can you argue against their “rules” when they say that the exceptions don’t contradict their “rules” but instead errors in the lore? It’s like a scientist holding on to a theory that has been thoroughly disproven, only far less significant.

DorDor.8617:

-snip-

Re-Forgotten:
A few things:

• The key was a Forgotten Seal; Divine Fire was the “work around” – a magical lockpick if you will.
• Technically, we don’t know where Ronan found the seed cave, I don’t think it’s even actually said to be in the jungle – people presume because that was the largest Shining Blade presence at the time, but it wasn’t the only location of SB presence. And we don’t even know when he got the seed either, which would affect SB presence concentration. He could have gotten it in the Shiverpeaks, for all we are told.
• The Forgotten had a known presence in the Tarnished Coast, Kryta, Blazeridge Mountains, and even Cantha. This cave is the only Forgotten ruins shown to players in the game outside the Crystal Desert. Prophecies manual and An Empire Divided tell us a grasp of their spread pre-retreat to the desert.

Now, I don’t doubt the cave to be Forgotten, but there are hundreds of caves – both in GW1 and GW2 – that the seeds could have been in.

Re-lieutenants:
I disagree on “only two differences”. I, in fact, listed three:

• Capable of controlling and ordering around grunts.
• Capable of conversation (no grunt is capable of such that we have seen).
• Is more powerful than the typical grunt (you’ll seldom see regular ranked, mechanically speaking, “lieutenants”).
• One I didn’t mention: mostly, if not solely, are involved with events and story instances – I haven’t encountered any minion I’d consider a “lieutenant” as a persistent open world creature not tied to an event.
• Aren’t one-in-a-million – usually they’re uniquely named mechanically.

And you state those two risen are “clear grunts” in Sea of Sorrows – here’s the thing, all risen that speak in SoS are near the obvious dragon champion Captain Whiting; Champions leading armies will often have lieutenant-looking figures with them, when separated they’d lead smaller groups around (like the veterans that held key positions on Claw Island during Retribution; like how Whiting sends lieutenant-looking individuals to assault specific targets, such as Cobiah). You say they’re “clear grunts” but to me they can easily classify as “lieutenants” – now this may end up result in your original claim posing you to go “aha! See, I told you’d just do that!” But let me throw it back around to you:

Why are they clearly grunts?

I see nothing that indicates that. What they were in the previous life does not dictate what they are as risen. Nor does how long ago they were corrupted (it’s known that champions can create champions on the spot – see Drakkar and Svanir – so why can’t a champion create a lieutenant on the spot?).

And why would it be mandatory for a dragon minion capable of leading a small group, to actually lead a small group? I never said that every lieutenant does lead a group, but that they can. Because those I’d consider such often do – but again, not always.

Re-Mordrem wolves:
Mordrem wolves flanking is fine. I did not deny this. But I do not know a single wolf – non-corrupted – that flanks.

As for the “pups” – in the story instance that happens there, there are dozens of “Immature” Mordrem Wolves. The “pups” appearance in the open world only creates a continuity of the scouting mission searching for the source of Mordrem. But nowhere do I see that they’re being “protected” but larger mordrem wolves. Why don’t they join in the attack? Perhaps because they’re growing still and thus not ready for an assault. There’s a champion nearby (the Vinewrath), so tactics are being used. Those “pups” are just part of the minion-creation-process.

Re-Wyld Hunts:
When I was talking about dragon-related, I was referring to your first two sentences: “Yeah, they’ve [the dwarves] all been very single-minded about killing the Elder Dragons. But in a way, so are the sylvari.” I was responding to that in saying that not all sylvari are focused on the Elder Dragons – and in fact, they’re nowhere near as close to the dwarves in that single-mindedness. And while Valiants do focus on their Wyld Hunt, they’re hardly single-minded about it.

Take Trahearne, an example you used. Yes, he devoted most of his life to studying Orr for 23 years. But he never actually took action to fulfill his Wyld Hunt. He intentionally delayed his Wyld Hunt as much as he could because he thought it impossible, while still working towards it. This wasn’t single-mindedness so much as avoiding it. He mentions this himself during the Personal Story.

I disagree about the Nightmare Court; they have Dark Hunts, after all. Valiants work to complete it – but they’re hardly single-minded about it.

Re-Stone Summit: while this is true at first, eventually they rejoined Deldrimor and ALL dwarves underwent the ritual and went underground to fight the Primordus. Told at Granite Citadel and Norn PS C3’s end.

Re-Dream:
The “isn’t reality” and ‘I don’t know" line actually comes from Trahearne, not the Pale Tree – the Pale Tree mentions the portal. And I fail to see how “isn’t reality” rules out the afterlife, the building blocks of reality, and the collection of memories of past, present, and future. I don’t think the afterlife or “all that is, was, and will be” constitutes as “reality” tbh.

Take that last one in. And re-read the quote. The one said by the Pale Tree, not Trahearne.

DaShi.1368:

DorDor.8617:

On the Forgotten: There are only two instances that we know of in which a dragon minion gained/regained free will. One is Glint. The other is Twitchy the Chicken, when we recreated the Forgotten ritual. Before you mention Mawdrey, remember that it isn’t the same plant as the Mysterious Vine, only an ancestor (and before you mention the fact that minions can’t reproduce, remember that there are caveats to that rule).

All the theories that were created to try to debunk the Sylvari aren’t minions are based on “rules” created only by players. How can you argue against their “rules” when they say that the exceptions don’t contradict their “rules” but instead errors in the lore? It’s like a scientist holding on to a theory that has been thoroughly disproven, only far less significant.

The so called “rules created only by players” are in fact taken from observations from the game. While never stated outright, they become apparent if you look at all the lore.

Most people don’t. This is why most people think the lore of GW1 and GW2 are completely incoherent. While the lore has become such with the Living World here and there, beforehand it wasn’t. You just need to look very wide and very deep.

I have not made up a single thing about the shared traits of dragon minions. The only potential “rule made by players only” that you can throw at me is the lieutenant bit. Certainly not what you quoted from Dordor. And certainly not my seven points I presented before.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Shinzan.2908:

No offense meant but the above rebuttals could be summed up as “Sylvari/Pale Tree are not like other dragon minions”. Like you are going through every random note or statement looking for contradictions while missing the bigger picture.

I don’t think you understood my argument, so I’ll put it in the shortest means possible here – if you care for more, then there’s above. This is a simple logical 101 argument: “If A + B then C”. We have:

A. There are 7 similarities across destroyers, icebrood, branded, risen, and non-sylvari mordrem.
B. The sylvari do not share these similarities.

Therefore, logic follows that:
C. The sylvari are not dragon minions.

My point, here, is that the reveal that sylvari are dragon minions is illogical given our evidence. While appearance, intelligence, and the hive mind can be argued to be flimsy in both directions, that’s still 4 pieces of evidence that makes the outcome illogical.

It’s only illogical if you think that there are certain “rules” that must be followed. You are clearly saying that there are rules to minions and that the Sylvari don’t follow them. However, no such rules have been given by Anet.

Saying Sylvari are not like other minions is a perfectly reasonable statement. But saying that Sylvari are not like other minions, therefore they are not minions is not a logical statement at all.

There are 7 similarities between humans and raccoons! We have mammary glands, we have forward facing eyes, we are warm blooded, we have opposable thumbs, we have a range of emotional expressions, a sense of possession, and the ability to grow hair. Logic follows that we are raccoons!

It’s not a strong argument. We have never been given a set of rules saying that minions MUST follow x criteria.

And I think you misread my part about the tablet altering the tree’s free will. I was saying that it WAS absurd that the tablet alone was enough to make the Pale Tree free from influence when what appeared to free Glint required a LOT more than just a chiseled rock and a corpse family.
Also, no one ever explained why the other tree also spawned human shaped Sylvari.

I’m not convinced that the tablet gave the Pale Tree free will either. I think it just guided how the Pale Tree used it’s free will. I suspect that the Pale Tree was purified as a seed somehow. Lately, I’ve been thinking about how Caladbog was used to purify Orr. Especially how it gave free will back to King Reza. There might be something about the Pale Tree that is directly hostile to dragon corruption. Could this be natural or a result of how they were freed from being minions? If Caladbog has this ability, why don’t all Sylvari born of the Pale Tree?

Personally, I probably would have preferred if they left the Sylvari origin ambiguous, and it could just join the ranks of “GW Mysteries” with the likes of the Wizard Tower.

(Though, if I had it my way, I probably would have just the Sylvari an ancient plant race from one of the previous ED rises. Mordremoth thought they were too powerful to be left alone, but they were also too convenient to destroy. So, he just attacked the whole race, imprisoned most of their Pale Tree seeds in a cave heavily guarded by Mordrum so they didn’t grow out of hand, and he then enslaved the rest of the race with a combination of his plant and mental magics.

That way, they could have said “Yes, they are dragon minions, but they aren’t naturally so.”)

I am a bit disapointed, or they just wanted to be hammer it in as the truth (for now)

The problem with all that is happening is: We only have on clear source, Wynn

Wynn states that she saw the true nature of the Sylvari in her dream. Nothing more.
By all what we know it could simply be her interpretation of what she has seen (though she had a conversation with the Pale Tree possibly which confirms that.).

By all means, aside from that it seems like we are forgetting something important.
Something that either makes Mordremoth more dangerous, or weaker, depending on how you interpret that fact.

Mordremoth was attributed with Plant and Mind.
Meansing he has a high affinity to take control over these two things.

Sylvari by nature are plants (and while being attributed as resistant to ED magic, being highly afiliated with the attributes of Mordremoth could override the protection in this situation. Like im being their weak ED), so they are being affected was always a risk in my opinion.

I am talking about the mindcontrol part though. Not them being dragon minions.

Did anyone notice the location where everything happened?
Everything happened in the area where Mordremoth had control, or was starting to spread.

Aerin lost control over the silverwastes. Scarlet lived in dry top and entered the machine apearently near there (we don`t know where her mentors laboratory was located as she killed him, however it could be in that area as well). The pact Sylvari went crazy in Mordremoths area as well.

So far we thought that with his mind control powers, Mordremoth would be able to turn everyone into an enemy. Which is highly dangerous on it`s own.
Now he somehow got downgraded to only controling plantlife (which, with them being a whole race, a problem on it`s own, but safes 4/5 of them, so it might be managable).

The questions that follow are:
*Does he only control the Sylvari because they are closer to him?
*Is he capable of controling other species as well?
*Is it an geographical effect (by that we could leave the Sylvari out of the danger zones and still have them perform them support), which we have to counter with a shield or something (cleansing)?
*How much does change after he is fully awakened (which he might allready be and we do not know that)?

Additional: Even if they are dragon minions, there is still the fact that they are offsprings. Offsprings tend to have mutations and with the right education and nourishment, something that was hinted at with Madrew, you are able to change the nature of beings over generations.
It has been a long time since Mordremoth awakened. It could have possibly been that his plants have changed into more peaceful beings over time, as they adapted their new enviroment.

Plants have a wide difference in lifespan. Some live hundreds of years, some only months. However with every new generation, change is possible. Mutations, simple adjustments.
By that matter Sylvari could have been a lucky byproduct of it.

Heck, even other pale trees are possible, given that Malyk seems to exist and hinting on it. Maybe they saw their past as well and cut themselves from the dream, to learn how to shield themselves.

I allready see us traveling to his pale tree and learn the way to Sylvari Ascension , rise above your nature and take destiny into your own hand…

Konig Des Todes.2086:

DaShi.1368:

DorDor.8617:

On the Forgotten: There are only two instances that we know of in which a dragon minion gained/regained free will. One is Glint. The other is Twitchy the Chicken, when we recreated the Forgotten ritual. Before you mention Mawdrey, remember that it isn’t the same plant as the Mysterious Vine, only an ancestor (and before you mention the fact that minions can’t reproduce, remember that there are caveats to that rule).

All the theories that were created to try to debunk the Sylvari aren’t minions are based on “rules” created only by players. How can you argue against their “rules” when they say that the exceptions don’t contradict their “rules” but instead errors in the lore? It’s like a scientist holding on to a theory that has been thoroughly disproven, only far less significant.

The so called “rules created only by players” are in fact taken from observations from the game. While never stated outright, they become apparent if you look at all the lore.

Most people don’t. This is why most people think the lore of GW1 and GW2 are completely incoherent. While the lore has become such with the Living World here and there, beforehand it wasn’t. You just need to look very wide and very deep.

I have not made up a single thing about the shared traits of dragon minions. The only potential “rule made by players only” that you can throw at me is the lieutenant bit. Certainly not what you quoted from Dordor. And certainly not my seven points I presented before.

Right there, Konig. That’s your problem: you dug too greedily and too deep, and awoke a terror of shadow and flame (I couldn’t resist typing that).

Think for a moment on the size of scope of Guild Wars. There are two games, each with a massive game world, multiple writers, thousands of named NPC’s, and potentially millions of lines of dialogue. You, with your powers of persistence and information retention, have combed though almost all of it and remember the vast majority of it. But that’s something not everyone can do. I can’t do it, most of the people here can’t do it, even the guys that crafted the world we’re talking about can’t do it. When I’m writing the little fantasy saga I’ve been cobbling together since the eighth grade, I have to keep a massive spreadsheet on-hand of every character and their appearance, personality, relationships, and location just so I can keep it all straight, and my stuff’s only a tiny fraction the size of this game.

And if you comb through enough of the obscure dialogue, exposition, and years-old interviews with the authors, you’ll always find things that don’t match up. It’s a fact of writing. Maybe a writer said something off-hand in an interview. Maybe they forgot about an NPC in a distant corner of the game world. Maybe one of their coworkers didn’t communicate an idea clearly enough. Either way, they screwed up. It’s an unavoidable fact of human nature. And your entire argument is just a compilation of minor screw-ups, and very little more.

Compare Guild Wars to any other franchise of a similar scope. Warcraft, Halo, Star Wars, Doctor Who, anything with an expanded universe and more than tiny close-knit team of writers, really. And compare the treatment of their canon to Arenanet’s treatment of Guild Wars. As I’ve just mentioned in another thread, funnily enough, several of these franchises have scrapped massive portions of their lore just to make writing a little easier on themselves. Others have just given up all pretense of caring, handing the franchise over to anyone capable of writing bad fanfiction. I come from Marvel Comics—the writers there have been playing ping-pong with Doctor Doom’s personality for half-a-century now, among countless other lore atrocities. When it comes to respecting previous lore, Arenanet have been extremely tame compared to the competition.

I’ve got what I came for. I’ve weeded out the weak and factually incorrect arguments. Now we’ve reached the point in the debate where we talk past each other, and I’m not gonna bang my head against a brick wall. Considering how much you clearly hate being here, I’m not going to subject to you to the same. I’m bowing out, with one little parting piece of advice: if you notice an imperfection in something, ignore it. You’ll be much happier if you do.

On dragon lieutenants:

I think you’re both right and you’re both wrong.

There are numerous references, both in and out of game, to most Risen essentially being automatons: repeating the same things they did in life with no apparent recognition of their actual surroundings unless 1) they’re commanded otherwise by a superior, or 2) a non-Risen comes too close to them, in which case they go berserk on the target. Basically, they have three settings: ‘holding pattern’, ‘following orders’, and ‘kill intruders’. Otherwise, they do not appear to have any real sapience whatsoever.

From an interview, this is explained to be a matter of how much a dragon invests in a particular minion. Sapience seems to be something that requires a being to have a certain minimum of magical energy – for minions that are not required to be sapient, the dragon sucks out this energy to be redirected elsewhere leaving the minion as a mindless automaton. If a minion needs more intelligence, the dragon can choose to not to suck out all the magic or even to return some, granting the minion more ability to think on its own.

The distinction is that there doesn’t seem to be any requirement for the dragon to commit to one or the other – it can change a given minion’s status at any time simply through an energy redistribution. So that cabin boy in Sea of Sorrows… could have been just another grunt until Captain Whiting recognised Cobiah, and saw a psychological advantage to be gained by promoting the cabin boy back to full intelligence (the Risen do like their psychological mind games, after all).

So how does this relate to the sylvari? Well, if the sylvari are intended to be a kind of minion that may be active before the dragon itself is, then why not give them the capability of being fully sapient by default? This helps to ensure that they survive and successfully carry out their programmed directive to wake Mordremoth, and once Mordremoth is awoken and resumes full control, he can get an extra power boost by sucking dry all of the sylvari that he doesn’t need to retain intelligence.

Regarding the Dream:

Mythology and fantasy alike commonly have the concept of the dream world as another plane of existence which is normally accessed by, well, dreaming, but which under certain conditions can be entered physically (this is usually dangerous, but grants advantages that being present only through dreaming does not grant). One of the better examples in modern fantasy is probably Tel-aran’rhiod in Wheel of Time (which I may have mispelled horribly).

I have some comments regarding dragon minion multi-corruption, but I typed them up on a different computer and transferring it over can wait until after dinner.

And here’s something I prepared earlier:

I seriously don’t see anything productive about continuing to argue over the quality or lack therof of the old arguments when, regardless, Wynne’s revelation has trumped all of them. However, on consideration, this can relate to other things, so let’s look at it.

Please keep in mind that there is no longer any of the weight for the dragon minion theory being carried on this former pillar – you can now concede on this one and it will not affect anything. Are you there? Okay.

What you’re basically referring to there is that the asura have developed some apparatus that allows them to store, contain, and transfer dragon energy in a controlled fashion. This is a necessary requirement in order to carry out any experiment involving dragon energy, so of course they will have such equipment.

However, it says nothing about whether such equipment is a necessity. As Konig said earlier in this thread, a lab experiment can only reproduce what is possible in nature, albeit possibly only in conditions that are unlikely to occur naturally.

Does it occur naturally? We don’t have much in the way of evidence either way, as dragon minions rarely cross into territory held by another dragon. In fact, the only case of dragon minions fighting other dragon minions that we know of involves sylvari, and (again keeping in mind that you don’t need to be stubborn about acknowledging this, as it no longer matters to the question of whether sylvari are dragon minions or not) we’ve known since S2E3 that the sylvari have at least additional protection through the Pale Tree and the Dream. (And, furthermore, the ritual with Caladbolg indicates that something about the Pale Tree grants her the power to cleanse dragon corruption.)

We don’t know if a dragon minion crossing into another dragon’s territory will start being corrupted just like any other creature. Or if it will resist it, but given enough time (without being killed by the natives) it will eventually become multi-corrupted. Or if it will be able to resist ‘background’ corruption, but a concerted effort from a dragon or champion apart from the minion’s own will be able to punch through that resistance and create a multi-corrupted creature, should the other dragon or champion feel there is sufficient reason to do so (interrogation, say). There is some indication that a dragon might be able to corrupt another, weaker dragon, as some dialogues can be interpreted as indicating that this happened to Glaust/Glint, which would if anything presumably be more difficult than corrupting a minion.

There is one thing, though, that we know with absolute certainty: That it most definitely is possible for a creature to bear the marks of multiple dragons. You can add the caveat that the only confirmed time it’s happened has been in a lab if you feel the need to, but if someone asks if it’s possible for a creature to be corrupted by multiple dragons, the only truthful answer is yes.

Squee.7829:

There are 7 similarities between humans and raccoons! We have mammary glands, we have forward facing eyes, we are warm blooded, we have opposable thumbs, we have a range of emotional expressions, a sense of possession, and the ability to grow hair. Logic follows that we are raccoons!

It’s not a strong argument. We have never been given a set of rules saying that minions MUST follow x criteria.

You’re right, that’s not a strong argument.

But that’s not my argument in regards to sylvari.

And besides, you’re strawman’ing. If you want to even get closer to my argument, then it’d be “both are mammals”.

My argument is:

Dragon Minion Type A can do xyz.
Dragon Minion Type B can also do xyz.
Dragon Minion Type C can do xyz as well.
Dragon Minion Type D can do xyz.
Dragon Minion Type E can do xyz too.
Dragon Minion Type F cannot do xyz.
Dragon Minion Type G is unknown if they can do xyz or not, for we have not seen Dragon Minion Type G.

~One of these things don’t work like the others~

This alone wouldn’t be too much of a problem, but then you hit a wall:

The aforementioned “Dragon Minion Type E”? Those would be mordrem. “Dragon Minion Type F”? Those are sylvari.

We have things that mordrem have in common with all other dragon minions (branded, destroyer, icebrood, and risen) on a general scope. But the sylvari – supposedly also mordrem – lack.

What I am, in the end, trying to say is that there is something amiss. Something doesn’t fit with this revelation.

Currently, with all the effort ArenaNet has apparently put to make sylvari so unlike dragon minions, the sylvari have as much in common with mordrem that the Flame Legion has with destroyers.

DorDor.8617:

And if you comb through enough of the obscure dialogue, exposition, and years-old interviews with the authors, you’ll always find things that don’t match up. It’s a fact of writing.

Here’s the thing. I haven’t dug all that deep. Half of what I present is downright stated fact, the other half just takes looking at a wide scale of things.

And the fact of the matter is that all common ground that dragons and their minions hold, the sylvari lack.

Even outright stated things – like the consumption of magic – is lacking by sylvari.

There is something wrong. Perhaps, it is as you said: things just don’t match up. But this is not an obscure thing here – these inconsistencies between sylvari and mordrem are skin deep in how deep into lore you must go.

And the funny thing about your statement and GW lore? Until the Living World, digging “too deep” actually made the lore make more sense. This is why the GWW is so much more coherent with lore than the games of Factions etc. Because I “dug too deep” and put it all together. And it made sense. But the Living World? Season 2 especially? You go deeper than the skin, and it begins making less and less sense.

Sorry but you are still saying the same thing.

Shinzan.2908:

No offense meant but the above rebuttals could be summed up as ‘Sylvari/Pale Tree are not like other dragon minions’

Yes they are different from all the dragon minions we’ve seen so far and have nothing in common… expect for the rather important bit where they are (or were originally intended to be) the minions of a dragon.

Glint was nothing like the branded either so it’s shown dragon minions can change or even turn against their masters.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Drakkar, The Great Destroyer, Svanir – these were all dragon champions awake while the Elder Dragon slept; and none of them freed; Svanir’s personality outright changes in obvious manners, despite what little examples we had – like all who are corrupted.

Svanir gave himself to the corruption via Drakkar because he wanted power. That alone shows us something as Svanir had to willingly hand himself to Jormag while his sister resisted. Fully living beings seem harder for the Dragons to corrupt, and often have to willingly undertake it.

The Great Destroyer, and I assume Drakkar, were both created by their respective dragons in their main form presumably eons ago. Both were created basically as extensions of their dragons. Not newly created life as the Pale Tree seems to be. They were created and existed within the dragons influence and corruption their whole lives, so to speak. Both dragons also awoke LONG before Mordremoth, leading one to assume they were far stronger than he at the time their champions arose.

Mordremoth awoke 43 years early, and before his awakening had no apparent champions or even a real presence in Tyria. Since almost all his forces, from champions to grunts, are of organic plant matter they must be made/grown, shaped by the dragon. When he sleeps, his minions would decay while the minions of stone, crystal, ice, etc could simply go inactive waiting for their master to hit on “on” button.

The work around there would be seeds, meant to be grown and fed by the dragon’s power around his awakening. The Pale Tree’s seed was removed from his influence and planted long before it could feed off of him, leading it to be fed and influenced by the “pure” magic than flows through Tyria. Considering the size of the tree, the roots probably hit a ley line somewhere. Therefore it has been sustained by an entire different form of magic as compared to other dragon minions.

It would seem that before awakening, he was still too weak to form any real champions, let alone control a champion that was born early and raised outside of his influence. The tree was planted and became conscious and alive around 300 years before Mordremoth was supposed to awaken and around 250 years before he actually did awaken. That alone drastically sets it apart from other champions which either existed before or were created around/after the dragon’s awakening.

interview snip

So it should be impossible to free a dragon champion – or any dragon minion – simply out of being good to them. This is one of the contradictions. If freeing dragon minions can be done by the power of love and friendship, then not only do we truly have a Saturday Morning Cartoon plot on our hands, but then it wouldn’t be so kitten hard for the scholars of the world to find a countering agent.

But it’s not just “love and friendship”. It is a set of philosophical and moral ideals that the Pale Tree took to heart literally centuries before Mordremoth was strong enough to kitten out a single vine to strangle a squirrel. To my knowledge, no other dragon champions had awoke so long before their dragons, let alone be “born” and grow separated from their dragons.

As shown by Mazdak and other far-flung minions, distance doesn’t affect one’s lack of free will that all dragon minions have. Which brings us to the second contradtion: free will. Dragon minions – at least for risen, icebrood, branded, destroyer, and the non-sylvari mordrem – do not have such.

Mazdak, and those similar, were all already being directly controlled before becoming distant. They had some kind of contact with either the dragon or it’s champions, and did so either close to or after the dragons awoke. Free will comes with being separated from the Dragon.

The third is appearance. All icebrood look the same; all destroyers look the same; all branded look the same; all risen look the same. Now, obviously not “the same” as in clones, but the same general appearance .
snip

And purification by all our knowledge does not change one’s appearance: “Glint remained in crystalline form, but she regained her free will and identity.” http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Ruined_City_of_Arah_%28explorable%29#Forgotten (this is referring to the ritual in the interview quote above). Sylvari look nothing like mordrem.

All that were mentioned were formed after or around when the dragons began to wake
up. Glint was freed long after being corrupted. Considering the icebrood change appearance depending on how long they have been exposed, the Pale Tree looks like it does because it gain it’s form without the dragons magic influencing it. The Slyvari look like they do because they were born of the tree. Once corrupted, I am sure they will look closer to Mordrem everyday.

Fourth, we have the hive mind.
snip

The hiveminds are obviously created by a direct link to their dragon. The Risen were created by Zhaitan or his minions. The Icebrood, Destroyers, etc as well. The Dragons are the central brain, if you will. Sylvari are separated from their Dragon and protected by the tree, so there isn’t a reason they should have a hivemind. Once corrupted, they would almost definitely lose their free will… and you know, probably turn around and kill a bunch of their pact comrades. This is pretty much confirmed by Wynne and her fears of the Sylvari being controlled by Mordremoth. Without the Tree’s protection, the dragon takes over.

For point number five, the immunity is outright stated in the wiki to be the Tree’s doing. So it’s already moot.

Point six is once again explained by the Tree, who is clearly intended to be a champion. The creatures born of her would be her “grunts”. Free from the dragon, she formed them how she wished. When corrupted, they would more than likely be mostly mindless drones akin to the Risen and certain Branded: capable of speech, sure, but only mindlessly parroting the hivemind of Mordremoth completely free of their own intelligence.

As for feeding on magic, only certain minions seem to actually do that. As seen in the Orr bits of the personal story, the Risen grunts would deliver magical artifacts to the higher ups who are the ones that consume it. Nothing seems to point to all minions needing to do this, or even all having the ability to do so. Being plants, of course sunlight feeds Sylvari. I’m sure it does for Mordrem as well.

The one bit you got me on is the food. Although yet again, that is more than likely something the Tree did. Not to mention an incredibly weak argument. Since other minions consume magic to deliver it to their Dragon, there would be no reason for Sylvari to do that as they aren’t under ones control.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

We have things that mordrem have in common with all other dragon minions (branded, destroyer, icebrood, and risen) on a general scope. But the sylvari – supposedly also mordrem – lack.

Nothing said they are Mordrem exactly, just that they were created by Mordremoth, intended to be his minions.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And the fact of the matter is that all common ground that dragons and their minions hold, the sylvari lack.

Even outright stated things – like the consumption of magic – is lacking by sylvari.

There is something wrong. Perhaps, it is as you said: things just don’t match up. But this is not an obscure thing here – these inconsistencies between sylvari and mordrem are skin deep in how deep into lore you must go.

I’m just not seeing how this constitutes an inconsistency.

Mordremoth had a breed of minion that is, in numerous ways, unique. That’s not inconsistent— it just didn’t fit with what we previously thought. The same could be said of countless new pieces of evidence people have come across in the real world.

It would be inconsistent if Word of God had stated that these characteristics were true of all dragon minions, no exceptions, but WoG said no such thing— people drew that conclusion themselves, and it turned out to be false.

Jaken.6801:

Sylvari by nature are plants

A quick cherry pick, if I may.

It seems (to me) the plant-ness of sylvari is only bark deep. Underneath, evidently, they are quite (conveniently) human (except where it’s more convenient for them to not be quite human, as in their inability to reproduce sexually).

What else sets them apart? Physiologically, that is, and besides their appearance. Specifically, in what ways are they significantly more like plants than like humans? More to the point, are there any differences that make any difference?

We can quickly ascertain that humans and sylvari share (at least) 7 similarities:

Both have mammary glands, both have forward facing eyes, both are bipedal, both have opposable thumbs, both have a range of emotional expressions (except for Trahearne, who seems more Vulcan than human), both have a sense of possession, and both have a circulatory system that, if compromised by the introduction of, say, a dagger blade, will cease to function, bringing about a rapid onset of death.

Hmm, never mind arguing about whether they were ever truly meant to be dragon minions. Were they ever truly meant to be anything but funny-looking humans, who, instead of wearing flowers in their hair, have flowers (and/or twigs) instead of hair?

Sorry, that wasn’t quite as quick a cherry pick as intended.

Epilogue: In reference to the notion of revelations, subtly hinted at or otherwise…

Say — that thing about skritt being smarter in groups — why, it’s almost like individual skritt are cells in a big ol’ hypothetical (dragon!) brain. Ahem. In closing, here’s a vague and potentially pretentious reference to Schrödinger and that darned cat.

It saddens me that it seems like Konig is better informed about GW lore than the current writers are. Saddens, -but doesn’t surprise me.

The lore inconsistencies are pretty obvious for anyone really into the lore. It also feels like they went with the most obvious and easy answer. I really wish they would have gone for a twist that in hind sight actually made sense, and actually managed to surprise us.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

It saddens me that it seems like Konig is better informed about GW lore than the current writers are. Saddens, -but doesn’t surprise me.

The lore inconsistencies are pretty obvious for anyone really into the lore. It also feels like they went with the most obvious and easy answer. I really wish they would have gone for a twist that in hind sight actually made sense, and actually managed to surprise us.

Please, tell us where all these inconsistencies are. Just because someone doesn’t agree on something doesn’t mean it is incorrect or goes against established information.

They have told us that the Sylvari being minions was planned from the very start, and as such it is very unlikely that they didn’t also plan out the whole story around the fact that the end game so to speak would be this reveal.

Sure, you will probably claim that the writers simply lied about it being planned from the start, but the fact that people have been speculating about it since they would very much suggest that there have been hints all along. Even if you refuses to see them.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

DorDor.8617:

And if you comb through enough of the obscure dialogue, exposition, and years-old interviews with the authors, you’ll always find things that don’t match up. It’s a fact of writing.

Here’s the thing. I haven’t dug all that deep. Half of what I present is downright stated fact, the other half just takes looking at a wide scale of things.

And the fact of the matter is that all common ground that dragons and their minions hold, the sylvari lack.

Even outright stated things – like the consumption of magic – is lacking by sylvari.

There is something wrong. Perhaps, it is as you said: things just don’t match up. But this is not an obscure thing here – these inconsistencies between sylvari and mordrem are skin deep in how deep into lore you must go.

And the funny thing about your statement and GW lore? Until the Living World, digging “too deep” actually made the lore make more sense. This is why the GWW is so much more coherent with lore than the games of Factions etc. Because I “dug too deep” and put it all together. And it made sense. But the Living World? Season 2 especially? You go deeper than the skin, and it begins making less and less sense.

Not from what I’ve seen, there isn’t. There are all kinds of little things scattered around if you look hard enough. For example, Edge of Destiny mentions Faolain having black hair (something sylvari aren’t capable of having), the Bloodstone lore we received in Arah flat out defies the things we learned in Prophecies, five extra days randomly appeared between GW1 and GW2, etc. But whenever one of those inconsistencies pops up, Arenanet makes an effort to write around it and explain it in-universe (which is why two out of three of those can make sense in hindsight). You appear to be giving them credit for doing that, but they haven’t had enough time to do that to this reveal.

Also, when you keep claiming that sylvari are different from dragon minions, there are four little words you keep forgetting to mention: “that we know of”. As the game delights in telling us over and over, we know very little about the Elder Dragons, and that includes the full extent of their minion-making capabilities. We also don’t how many of these differences are a side effect of the purifying ritual, or specifically thrown in by Mordremoth during their creation, if any . We don’t even know if Mordremoth created the sylvari race, or corrupted/enslaved them during the last rise. There are way, waaaaay too many unknown factors and potential explanations to be calling non-canon.

Okay, now I’m really bowing out. I’ve got places to go and Tumblr posts to edit.

DaShi.1368:

DorDor.8617:

On the Forgotten: There are only two instances that we know of in which a dragon minion gained/regained free will. One is Glint. The other is Twitchy the Chicken, when we recreated the Forgotten ritual. Before you mention Mawdrey, remember that it isn’t the same plant as the Mysterious Vine, only an ancestor (and before you mention the fact that minions can’t reproduce, remember that there are caveats to that rule).

All the theories that were created to try to debunk the Sylvari aren’t minions are based on “rules” created only by players. How can you argue against their “rules” when they say that the exceptions don’t contradict their “rules” but instead errors in the lore? It’s like a scientist holding on to a theory that has been thoroughly disproven, only far less significant.

By the way, Konig is right in saying that the vast majority of his arguments come from in-game knowledge (with the exception of lieutenants, which has no legs of its own to stand on). That includes the lore on dragon reproduction.

DorDor.8617:

DaShi.1368:

DorDor.8617:

On the Forgotten: There are only two instances that we know of in which a dragon minion gained/regained free will. One is Glint. The other is Twitchy the Chicken, when we recreated the Forgotten ritual. Before you mention Mawdrey, remember that it isn’t the same plant as the Mysterious Vine, only an ancestor (and before you mention the fact that minions can’t reproduce, remember that there are caveats to that rule).

All the theories that were created to try to debunk the Sylvari aren’t minions are based on “rules” created only by players. How can you argue against their “rules” when they say that the exceptions don’t contradict their “rules” but instead errors in the lore? It’s like a scientist holding on to a theory that has been thoroughly disproven, only far less significant.

By the way, Konig is right in saying that the vast majority of his arguments come from in-game knowledge (with the exception of lieutenants, which has no legs of its own to stand on). That includes the lore on dragon reproduction.

Is it firsthand witnessed things such as Abaddon’s death or the ritual of the Great Dwarf . . . or is it things other characters have said or have been written down in books/scrolls?

One is necessarily concrete. The other is not.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

DorDor.8617:

DaShi.1368:

DorDor.8617:

On the Forgotten: There are only two instances that we know of in which a dragon minion gained/regained free will. One is Glint. The other is Twitchy the Chicken, when we recreated the Forgotten ritual. Before you mention Mawdrey, remember that it isn’t the same plant as the Mysterious Vine, only an ancestor (and before you mention the fact that minions can’t reproduce, remember that there are caveats to that rule).

All the theories that were created to try to debunk the Sylvari aren’t minions are based on “rules” created only by players. How can you argue against their “rules” when they say that the exceptions don’t contradict their “rules” but instead errors in the lore? It’s like a scientist holding on to a theory that has been thoroughly disproven, only far less significant.

By the way, Konig is right in saying that the vast majority of his arguments come from in-game knowledge (with the exception of lieutenants, which has no legs of its own to stand on). That includes the lore on dragon reproduction.

Is it firsthand witnessed things such as Abaddon’s death or the ritual of the Great Dwarf . . . or is it things other characters have said or have been written down in books/scrolls?

One is necessarily concrete. The other is not.

It’s a mix. Some of it is backed up by dev statements, some of it is backed up by in-game lore, some of it is backed up only by characters’ conceptions of the ideas. A few are backed up them are backed up by all three. But all have their caveats (for in-game lore, we might not be seeing what we think we’re seeing; for dev statements, they might be speaking out of hand without really thinking about it; for character knowledge, they might not even know the truth).

lordkrall.7241:

Please, tell us where all these inconsistencies are. Just because someone doesn’t agree on something doesn’t mean it is incorrect or goes against established information.

They have told us that the Sylvari being minions was planned from the very start, and as such it is very unlikely that they didn’t also plan out the whole story around the fact that the end game so to speak would be this reveal.

Sure, you will probably claim that the writers simply lied about it being planned from the start, but the fact that people have been speculating about it since they would very much suggest that there have been hints all along. Even if you refuses to see them.

They have nothing in common with dragon minions.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

They have nothing in common with dragon minions.

As far as we have seen.

I find it highly unlikely that we have seen all kinds of Dragon Minions. In fact we have probably seen rather few of them all in all.

That doesn’t make it inconsistent.

DorDor.8617:

DaShi.1368:

DorDor.8617:

On the Forgotten: There are only two instances that we know of in which a dragon minion gained/regained free will. One is Glint. The other is Twitchy the Chicken, when we recreated the Forgotten ritual. Before you mention Mawdrey, remember that it isn’t the same plant as the Mysterious Vine, only an ancestor (and before you mention the fact that minions can’t reproduce, remember that there are caveats to that rule).

All the theories that were created to try to debunk the Sylvari aren’t minions are based on “rules” created only by players. How can you argue against their “rules” when they say that the exceptions don’t contradict their “rules” but instead errors in the lore? It’s like a scientist holding on to a theory that has been thoroughly disproven, only far less significant.

By the way, Konig is right in saying that the vast majority of his arguments come from in-game knowledge (with the exception of lieutenants, which has no legs of its own to stand on). That includes the lore on dragon reproduction.

Which is very different from what I’m saying. I don’t disagree that he knows a lot of the lore. However, that doesn’t mean his arguments are right or even make sense.

lordkrall.7241:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

They have nothing in common with dragon minions.

As far as we have seen.

I find it highly unlikely that we have seen all kinds of Dragon Minions. In fact we have probably seen rather few of them all in all.

That doesn’t make it inconsistent.

Actually, since we now know that ArenaNet had at least two confirmed dragon minions as of EOTN (Destroyers and Sylvari), the question shouldn’t be why are the Sylvari different from other minions?

Rather, it should be why are other dragon minions so different from the Destroyers and the Sylvari?

DaShi.1368:

lordkrall.7241:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

They have nothing in common with dragon minions.

As far as we have seen.

I find it highly unlikely that we have seen all kinds of Dragon Minions. In fact we have probably seen rather few of them all in all.

That doesn’t make it inconsistent.

Actually, since we now know that ArenaNet had at least two confirmed dragon minions as of EOTN (Destroyers and Sylvari), the question shouldn’t be why are the Sylvari different from other minions?

Rather, it should be why are other dragon minions so different from the Destroyers and the Sylvari?

Plus the Nornbear and the crystal guardians we’ve seen in Glint’s lair.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

They have nothing in common with dragon minions.

They have little in common with the other varieties of Dragon minions we’ve seen.

That’s not an inconsistency, because there’s no actual contradiction of information: only new information. One may as well argue that Platypuses can’t be mammals, because they have little in common with other mammals.

Maybe the Pale Tree is a genetic abberation, and her offspring (the Sylvari) are a lot different because of it.

Neilos Tyrhanos.5427:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

They have nothing in common with dragon minions.

They have little in common with the other varieties of Dragon minions we’ve seen.

That’s not an inconsistency, because there’s no actual contradiction of information: only new information. One may as well argue that Platypuses can’t be mammals, because they have little in common with other mammals.

Yeah, the only dragons that we know a lot are Zhaitan and Jormag.

DorDor.8617:

Pinkunicorn of Dethecus.3217:

Squee.7829:

By your argument, treants and all GW1 plant enemies are mordrem, embers are destroyers, ice elementals are icebrood, and Palawa Joko is a risen. It just doesn’t work that way.

I’m aware this is a complete aside, (and I hesitate to mention it insofar as the Lore team might actually make it cannon, and that would be horrifying), but do we actually have any background on Pawala? AFAIK, he showed up in Elona and started taking things over until Turai and co. fought him, and he challenged Pawala to single combat and won, then does all the pre-gw1, Turai sealing off Pawala’s body.

I would truly, truly hope that Pawala weren’t a “freed” Risen champion (I feel like it would ruin his character to be just another ED device, I already don’t really care for ED), but I don’t know of anything in the gw universe that can make something persist after death with the strength and intelligence that Pawala is said to possess. Obviously, the Scepter of Orr has some effect on lifespan in humans, but unless Pawala had the sister staff at some point or something…

I’m reasonably sure that Palawa Joko was just an abnormally powerful/sociopathic necromancer that figured out how to turn himself into a Lich. And I’m positive that he’s not Zhaitan’s champion, because he definitely wasn’t around during the last rise (being a pesky human, and all), and his first brush with recorded history was hundreds of years before Zhaitan stirred. He could have tapped into the power of a dormant dragon like the asura did in Eye of the North to give himself that extra power boost, though. Or used a slain dragon champion, like Duncan the Black tried to do.

Do you think Vizier Khilbron was actually channeling Zhaitan’s energy to create the Cataclysm, also turned himself into a Lich?

DaShi.1368:

DorDor.8617:

On the Forgotten: There are only two instances that we know of in which a dragon minion gained/regained free will. One is Glint. The other is Twitchy the Chicken, when we recreated the Forgotten ritual. Before you mention Mawdrey, remember that it isn’t the same plant as the Mysterious Vine, only an ancestor (and before you mention the fact that minions can’t reproduce, remember that there are caveats to that rule).

All the theories that were created to try to debunk the Sylvari aren’t minions are based on “rules” created only by players. How can you argue against their “rules” when they say that the exceptions don’t contradict their “rules” but instead errors in the lore? It’s like a scientist holding on to a theory that has been thoroughly disproven, only far less significant.

Pretty much, we don’t really know the dragons a lot, even Zhaitan, we probably still miss some knowledge of it.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

lordkrall.7241:

Please, tell us where all these inconsistencies are. Just because someone doesn’t agree on something doesn’t mean it is incorrect or goes against established information.

They have told us that the Sylvari being minions was planned from the very start, and as such it is very unlikely that they didn’t also plan out the whole story around the fact that the end game so to speak would be this reveal.

Sure, you will probably claim that the writers simply lied about it being planned from the start, but the fact that people have been speculating about it since they would very much suggest that there have been hints all along. Even if you refuses to see them.

They have nothing in common with dragon minions.

I think there’s a possibility we hadn’t considered. Think for a moment about all of the differences between sylvari and every other minion we’ve encountered (including other Mordrem). Many of them share a common theme. Free will. Independent thoughts and actions. Lack of uniformity. In other words: unpredictability.

Dragon minions are savage and bloodthirsty and ferocious, but unless you’re dealing with a champion, they are oh so predictable, and that makes them very vulnerable to the sort of out-of-the-box thinking common among sentient beings (which just so happen to be the dragons’ greatest enemy). That’s been used to our advantage countless times in the overall story. We know the dragons themselves are self-aware and actually pretty clever when they put their minds to something. What’s stopping Mordremoth from realizing that this is a problem, and creating new, more independent minions to compensate? We know that dragons are capable of creating minions with some level of independence (champions), and there’s nothing in-lore that says they can’t apply those principles to their foot soldiers.

And yes, I know, there is no evidence whatsoever to back this theory up. I’m purely spitballing here. But it would patch up any problems with the reveal quite nicely, and it would give us a pretty good reason to fear Mordremoth (because he’s the only dragon with enough mental moxie to come up with such a creative ace in the hole).