Guild Wars 2

Thanks Bobby, good to know.
I am on EU.

Erukk.1408:

draxynnic.3719

@Zaxares: Interesting theory. Wynne did say “We were meant to serve the jungle dragon” – not that they are dragon minions that gained free will. It’s a subtle distinction, but it would be hilarious if after all this it does get turned around altogether into the sylvari simply being a convenient source of minions rather than minions themselves.

As much as I like and really really want to believe that theory, her full statement was, “We come from the jungle dragon. We belong to it. We’re meant to serve it.”

Perhaps you bolded the wrong segment of Wynnes statement…rebolding it to point in the context I believe it should be taken. They Sylvari may come from the Dragon and were meant to serve it, but that doesn’t mean they would serve Mordremoth if something intervened before they could be controlled…at least you could see it that way if you so desired.

Not to mention that Wynne’s statement is still a bit open to interpretation. After all, if the Pale Tree’s seed was stolen away from a cave guarded by Mordrem, technically they do “come from the jungle dragon” even though originally they were an independent living race that was conquered by him and turned into a slave race.

A bit like the various Horde races in WoW, for example. (Note: I’m not that familiar with WoW lore, as I’ve only played up to Warcraft 3.) The Blood Elves and Tauren are not native to the same world as the Orcs, for example, yet everyone you meet would immediately classify them as “belonging to the Horde”, despite the Horde having its roots in Draenor, not Azeroth.

@Bobby: I hope your big reveal at PAX South can answer some of our burning questions.

My short piece on the possibility of Ventari inherited the Purification Ritual due to proximity of his centaur ancestors next to the forgotten sealed cavern entry/underground ancient city in Silver Waste seemed to have relocated and missed placed.

Well, the main point I was trying to make was the Purification Ritual that the Forgotten did on Glint is showing up on the Pale Tree. There is just too many sign posts of similarities between Glint and the Pale Tree.

If not the Forgotten, and nor Ventari who else knew about the Purification Ritual. Well, Glint herself should know the Purification Ritual as she herself went through it. From that, it is highly likely the Brotherhood of the Cloth and their inheritors, the Zephyrites would knew about the Purification Ritual. They could have contributed to the Pale Tree purification ritual.

There are so many convergence such as did the Master of Peace tried to take Glint’s egg to a place where he could conduct a Purification Ritual on the egg?

I don’t know if there’s anything worth noting in Sea of Sorrows, but “What Scarlet Saw” is a very interesting story to revise knowing what we now know (not only that the sylvari are dragon minions, or that Scarlet saw Mordremoth, but also that Scarlet specifically states she understands the role of Caithe and Faolain). There is also interesting interactions between Ceara and the Pale Tree.

In addition to that I really think Caithe’s story is worth taking a much closer look at. For that, Edge of Destiny might be worth a reread.

@Slowpokeking

Zaithan being smart is debateble.
We only interact with him one time. Which is during the end fight.
Other times we have “others” speak for him.

While he (might have) send some spies out in stealth to LA and there were attacks on the orders, that doesn`t have to be something strategic, but could also just be due to the fact that there were a lot of people/magical artifacts.
Things he send out his minions to gather.

The only other evidence could have been the “blue orb” incident with the traitor, but there it was also revealed that his minions can think on his own, putting Zaithans own intelligence again into question.

The Personal story itself did not really show him as a leader. Only the one who said: “Bring me food.”
We had more interaction with his minions than him.

What I am saying is basicly, that we just hadn`t enough interaction with him personaly to say it was his intelligence.

btw. Why do I imagine Audrey II, when I think of Mordremoth now? (oh Madrew II… now I get that joke as well, sneaky)
Converting all his minions with mind control and standing around: “Feed me, Scarlet, Feed me.”

lordkrall.7241:

…would actually suggest that it was not as predictable as you want to claim.

That’s the thing – it actually wasn’t that predictable. ArenaNet basically got unlucky.

The theory started off as one of a number of prerelease ‘wouldn’t it be crazy if…’ ideas with basically no real evidence (what evidence was there was debunked soon after release). In the original form, there was even supposed to be an Elder Dragon growing in the Pale Tree’s roots – I was involved in paring that back to the more believable theory that the Pale Tree was a champion that broke free of its dragon’s control (this was before we knew about the Forgotten ritual, and Edge of Destiny implied that a moment of enlightenment was all it took for a dragon champion to break free).

It gained traction despite a lack of real credible evidence basically because people – particularly WoodenPotatoes who publicised it – thought it was a cool idea and wanted it to be true. Credible evidence didn’t start to appear until well into the Living Story. It was only predicted because someone made a wild speculation and that speculation turned out to be close to the mark – less a case of being predictable, and more an example of the infinite monkey principle.

For the people who actually looked at the evidence critically rather than jumping on the bandwagon, there was nothing to distinguish the dragon minions theory as more likely than any of a number of other theories until… well, basically, now. It just happens that, this time, the bandwagon theory happened to be correct. Those of us who are veterans in the lore community, however, recall that there have been times when a theory had become such a bandwagon that it was taken as a truth that “everybody knew”… until something happened in-game that demonstrated that it was actually false.

Basically, ArenaNet had their big twist spoiled by someone making a lucky wild guess and the community happening to focus on it rather than one of the other theories out there.

@draxynnic

The problem with that explanation is that this is a fantasy universe, not real life. We don’t need observational evidence, or critical thought, or any other sort of hard proof of something before we can assume it is true. We CAN jump to conclusions, because this is a fictional world, and we all, at least subconsciously, understand the fundamental tropes that exist in the genre, and we understand how writers think. If something doesn’t make sense, even if there’s evidence for it, it’s probably still not true. If something is cool, and it fits a trope and what we feel is right, it probably will be true. Like for instance, if you’re watching a show or reading a book, and you just get the feeling that X character is about to die? There’s nothing to support that reasoning, but 30 seconds later in that scene the character is dead.

In other words, while the story isn’t predictable per se, it isn’t much of a twist on the staples of the genre. It’s a cliche plot device.

Neilos Tyrhanos.5427:

Which speculation is that, sorry?

As far as I know, none of the various theories about Coldhands’ identity have been disproven.

That would be the speculation that Coldhands is Benjen Stark. According to a note on a manuscript, by GRRM himself, this speculation is incorrect.

But I don’t want to derail this topic too much towards Game of Thrones.

BobbyStein.2315:

I plan to be a little more active on the forums and in the game after next week. We’re just a bit busy right now.

Are you folks mostly on NA or EU servers?

I’m on EU. Aurora Glade.

Also, I hope you (or any of the other writers) don’t take my criticism regarding the writing of the Sylvari too personal, even if I can be rather harsh in stating my disappointment. There’s plenty of stuff in the recent Living Story to like, and the team did an excellent job.

I just feel that the writing for the races of Tyria hasn’t exactly been top notch. It falls too easily into predictable fantasy cliches. I like sympathetic villains, not pure black hat villains. That doesn’t mean a fantasy setting can’t have any pure black hat villains. For example, I’m fine with the Elder Dragons being pure evil, just as much as I would be happy if the White Walkers in Game of Thrones are pure evil. Its perfectly fine to have the monsters just be stereotypical villains. But for actual characters, I want them to be sympathetic. Faolain is a walking stereotype. With her constant “dearheart” catchphrases, she is almost the very kind of villain that my own character (The Mad Queen) lampoons. There seems to be no reason what so ever why Caithe would want to keep this murdering, torturing, genocidal, irredeemable villain, alive. And it harms the plot, and the way I look at the Sylvari as a whole. Its badly written.

Also, I get the feeling that a lot of the edges have been brushed off of many of the races. Sylvari are either good, or Nightmare Court. And the Nightmare Court so far has been presented to us as just plain evil. They like cruelty and torture, and we haven’t been given anything to make them even slightly redeemable. And the other Sylvari seem just bland in comparison, as in: They seem mostly defined by the fact that they are not their evil counterparts.

Norn are now all boasting drunk comic relief characters, rather than the interesting nomadic, imposing, and powerful people that they were presented as in Eye of the North. Asura now seem to get along just fine with everyone. Charr even walk around as Lionguards in Lion’s Arch, and it seems as if almost every human that doesn’t live in Ebonhawk has forgotten completely about their history. Every race has their own capital, even though the Norn by their very nature shouldn’t have any capital what so ever, because they are nomadic and work alone. They don’t form armies, and they certainly don’t form capitals.

What happened?

I like the story that Anet is trying to tell. I just wish it were told a bit better. It feels like we’ve been led astray by the current lore and it needs to be fixed to support the new lore.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Norn are now all boasting drunk comic relief characters, rather than the interesting nomadic, imposing, and powerful people that they were presented as in Eye of the North. Asura now seem to get along just fine with everyone. Charr even walk around as Lionguards in Lion’s Arch, and it seems as if almost every human that doesn’t live in Ebonhawk has forgotten completely about their history. Every race has their own capital, even though the Norn by their very nature shouldn’t have any capital what so ever, because they are nomadic and work alone. They don’t form armies, and they certainly don’t form capitals.

What happened?

Well, calling it a “capital” is a rather loose definition in my book.
Many nomadic cultures had some places to return to. Places which had some advantage to some degree.

We do not see many Norn villages to be frank. Mostly single huts, near work grounds.
Even in Eye of the North they had fixed villages. Hoelbrak is nothing more than the new main village, with a higher emphasis on praising their animal spirits.

As for race lovey dovey peace and fun. It has been 250 years.
They are all intelligent people and if our history is anything to go by, these alliances are something that took some time, but are possible.

It is not like there is no one going against this kind of state. We have our seperatists. We have our rebells.
However the majority of the (known part of the) races is for fighting Eldar Dragons together, instead gainst each other.

It is possible that races, with their ability to talk, were able to earn respect for each other. LA is such a meldingground, which is based on outcast of several races and such a home for everyone. Of course we see races mingling.

While you go for the deep history. All the hardships that have and could have been, you forget that there were 250 years, we have no complete knowledege about.
However what I know is, that a common enemy is always a good start for cooperation.

Right now we have a time of “peace”, mostly because there is a greater thread being seen by the majority of the people.
If that thread is gone, or lessened over time, peoples mind might change.
Like if the human race is safe, there might be a rebellion, which causes them unable to help the Charr, which in turn have a harder time against Kalkatorik.
If the “new leader” is able to come to their “aid” the Charr might not be as strong as they have been before and be easily pushed into submision.

However, that is nothing I would want and is just a simple little example, waht is possible (and many people can think of better scenarios)

Jaken.6801:

@Slowpokeking

Zaithan being smart is debateble.
We only interact with him one time. Which is during the end fight.
Other times we have “others” speak for him.

While he (might have) send some spies out in stealth to LA and there were attacks on the orders, that doesn`t have to be something strategic, but could also just be due to the fact that there were a lot of people/magical artifacts.
Things he send out his minions to gather.

The only other evidence could have been the “blue orb” incident with the traitor, but there it was also revealed that his minions can think on his own, putting Zaithans own intelligence again into question.

The Personal story itself did not really show him as a leader. Only the one who said: “Bring me food.”
We had more interaction with his minions than him.

What I am saying is basicly, that we just hadn`t enough interaction with him personaly to say it was his intelligence.

btw. Why do I imagine Audrey II, when I think of Mordremoth now? (oh Madrew II… now I get that joke as well, sneaky)
Converting all his minions with mind control and standing around: “Feed me, Scarlet, Feed me.”

He also tried to attack all the three orders’ bases and then sent spy to frame you and try to kill Trehane.

The last fight was garbage, but other than that he is quite smart compare to most of the MMORPG bosses.

DorDor.8617:

ThatOddOne.4387:

Basically to summarise this thread:

- Konig broke.
- His horde of sycophants begged him not to leave because he is the ‘loremaster’.

And it’s hilarious.

I might not agree with everything Konig has said and done since the reveal (in fact, I disagree with pretty much all of it), but that’s just a cheap shot, both to Konig and the people that support him. Please have some respect for your fellow human beings.

This is important to echo. Yes I have disagreed with Konig plenty of times in the past, my opinion of him is that he often picks and takes dialog of his choosing to strengthen his argument. Using things literally when they suit him and using things figuratively when they do not. Fact of the matter is, the theory was right, it’s time people accept it and move on.

However, I do not think Konig is a bad man and in no way should badmouthing people that have taken is stance be encouraged or paraded around. Yes it was all well and good, people fought the fight and those that stuck around were rewarded (I wish The Indoctrination Theory ended like this myself, blast you Bioware). People have ideas and when those ideas don’t go according to plan, there’s going to be denial. That’s just the way the cookie crumbles. But attacking people for disagreeing even to this day, the simple fact that some were right should be vindication in of itself. No need to rub it in.

Ronin.7381:

This is important to echo. Yes I have disagreed with Konig plenty of times in the past, my opinion of him is that he often picks and takes dialog of his choosing to strengthen his argument. Using things literally when they suit him and using things figuratively when they do not. Fact of the matter is, the theory was right, it’s time people accept it and move on.

I have disagreed with him many times as well, but to be honest, many of us used such way to argue before.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Ronin.7381:

This is important to echo. Yes I have disagreed with Konig plenty of times in the past, my opinion of him is that he often picks and takes dialog of his choosing to strengthen his argument. Using things literally when they suit him and using things figuratively when they do not. Fact of the matter is, the theory was right, it’s time people accept it and move on.

I have disagreed with him many times as well, but to be honest, many of us used such way to argue before.

Definitely. So it’s with our experience(s) to sit back and say, “Alright, settle down. They don’t need pitchforks turned on them.” Actually speaking of which, I was one of those who thought Eye of The North was going to tell the tale of Menzies usurping Balthazar and plunge Tyria into chaos – jeez that expansion disappointed me. xD

Ronin.7381:

Slowpokeking.8720:

Ronin.7381:

This is important to echo. Yes I have disagreed with Konig plenty of times in the past, my opinion of him is that he often picks and takes dialog of his choosing to strengthen his argument. Using things literally when they suit him and using things figuratively when they do not. Fact of the matter is, the theory was right, it’s time people accept it and move on.

I have disagreed with him many times as well, but to be honest, many of us used such way to argue before.

Definitely. So it’s with our experience(s) to sit back and say, “Alright, settle down. They don’t need pitchforks turned on them.” Actually speaking of which, I was one of those who thought Eye of The North was going to tell the tale of Menzies usurping Balthazar and plunge Tyria into chaos – jeez that expansion disappointed me. xD

Menzies, what is he doing now?

Slowpokeking.8720:

He also tried to attack all the three orders’ bases and then sent spy to frame you and try to kill Trehane.

The last fight was garbage, but other than that he is quite smart compare to most of the MMORPG bosses.

Which I wrote… Spies in LA, attack on the Orders and the “blue orb incident”.

However these are deeds of Zaithan`s forces to further his goal.
We never saw him give direct orders.
However we saw Leaders of his forces argue and plan, showing that they can work independend from him.

I am not saying that he didn`t give orders to do certain things. It is just that the PS was really bad in showing him more than a beast, who is being fed and in the end shot down by lazors, because he didn`t get enough food.

We were shown a chain of command. Usually the head gives a (rough) order and the ones bellow try to carry it out, giving feedback to the top if problems arise.
We witnessed such a meeting at abaddons temple.

I hope we get some better “antagonists” with Mordremoth. Enemies we can focus on.
The Shadow of the Dragon was nothing more than a pet he send to carry out his plans for me.
That`s what GW2 needs. Someone we can focus on. Stepping stones. The EDs are way to big to be taken down by a little group of heroes, but rivals and clear targets are something they can do.

I didn`t felt any satisfaction from the SotD, simply because he was just there. I had two interaction and felt no real hate against him.
Subsequently he left me with no real impression, other than he was annoying. First time to many vines and the second time playing ragdoll with my body.

EU, Far Shiverpeaks.

Good luck at PAX! Looking forward to the Twitch stream … and then to having you back here on the forums with us

Jaken.6801:

Which I wrote… Spies in LA, attack on the Orders and the “blue orb incident”.

However these are deeds of Zaithan`s forces to further his goal.
We never saw him give direct orders.
However we saw Leaders of his forces argue and plan, showing that they can work independend from him.

I am not saying that he didn`t give orders to do certain things. It is just that the PS was really bad in showing him more than a beast, who is being fed and in the end shot down by lazors, because he didn`t get enough food.

We were shown a chain of command. Usually the head gives a (rough) order and the ones bellow try to carry it out, giving feedback to the top if problems arise.
We witnessed such a meeting at abaddons temple.

I hope we get some better “antagonists” with Mordremoth. Enemies we can focus on.
The Shadow of the Dragon was nothing more than a pet he send to carry out his plans for me.
That`s what GW2 needs. Someone we can focus on. Stepping stones. The EDs are way to big to be taken down by a little group of heroes, but rivals and clear targets are something they can do.

I didn`t felt any satisfaction from the SotD, simply because he was just there. I had two interaction and felt no real hate against him.
Subsequently he left me with no real impression, other than he was annoying. First time to many vines and the second time playing ragdoll with my body.

Because it doesn’t need to show up too much? Zhaitan’s Risen were like a real human kingdom, it was very organized and many of them retain their intelligence. Zhaitan mostly just need to set the direction. Mordremoth’s minions, other then the Sylvari, were all plants, many of them probably are similar to the Destroyers, with hive mind structure and little personality. So the Dragon need to set more direct influence.

But at the same time, most of Mordremoth’s minions weren’t even characters.

@Larynx: The other theories work by trope-based arguments as well, albeit perhaps with less of a ‘twist’. That twistiness did play a role in it being more popular, but that same popularity essentially destroyed the twist – because of it, it was a surprise to no one who reads the lore forums, instead being responded to by an ‘I knew it!’ or an eyeroll depending on the person.

That doesn’t change the fact, however, that the initial proposal was basically a shot in the dark.

draxynnic.3719:

That doesn’t change the fact, however, that the initial proposal was basically a shot in the dark.

A shot in the dark at something seemingly breathing heavily and moving, but still a shot in the dark. They were lucky they didn’t miss and hit something else, like a malfunctioning air conditioning unit.

Seriously. The theory was fine as a theory but it really wasn’t until the last . . . 12 months? . . . it could seriously gain some traction.

Glad to hear from you, Bobby. I’m playing on EU server (Piken Square).

I think the sylvari revelation works and even if it seems to be at odds with what we currently know about dragon minions (as stated by Konig et al earlier), there’s still lots of uncharted territory out there, and I’m sure the writing team will give us a satisfying lore explanation, hopefully in Heart of Thorns, about the unique minion status of sylvari compared to Mordrem in general and how they can fit into preestablished dragon minion lore so Konig and others who have voiced their concerns over this development can sleep well in the future.

What I like about this twist is that it actually fits into the overarching narrative we’ve had since the Personal Story. We begin in a world where hatreds have been mostly set aside with nefarious factions among each race scheming for their own ends, and we gradually learn that even the “good guys” have some bad or at the very least questionably tasting apples among them who are willing to be ruthless if need be to protect their community’s interests. The threat of the elder dragons is looming but becomes quite real when Zhaitan attacks Lion’s Arch. We manage to make the races work together and form the Pact, and as a side story we also see the racial unification on a smaller scale by reuniting Destiny’s Edge. We defeat Zhaitan, and it seems we’re headed for a brighter future now that we know how to combat the dragons and have people playing nice with each other.

Alas, it’s not to be, as the races quickly become “introverted” again, focusing on their own problems within their borders instead of speeding up the decimation of the greatest threat to everyone’s existence: the dragons. It takes Scarlet forming the Anti-Pact (her alliances) and the rising threat of Mordremoth, as well as some nudging from players, before the racial leaders finally meet in earnest and decide to put some of their manpower and resources on our war effort. We also have Destiny’s Edge 2.0 forming from a younger generation, showing that new heroes rise to meet the challenges among the veterans and we, the players, end up in an interesting spot. On the one hand we’ve been the rookie of Destiny’s Edge, and now we’re the boss of this new guild of adventurers with all the responsibilities that come with it.

Just when everything seems to be going according to plan, things begin unravelling, leaving our future uncertain. Not only does Destiny’s Edge fall apart thanks to Rytlock’s disappearance and Caithe’s dubious actions and the Pact is jeopardized in the assault against a stronger and more devious than suspected enemy, the sylvari race as a whole will be put under scrutiny once their true nature is revealed to the public. The unity of the alliances will be tested, and this leads to what could be Tyria’s darkest hour so far. If the other races stop trusting sylvari and we see in-fighting begin, Mordremoth will have already won. This is our true trial by fire; we either rise or fall together, and Tyria’s fate will be decided in the coming conflict. And the sylvari are in the centre of it all, carrying on the overarching narrative of cooperation and understanding, and friendship, which are key to fighting the coming darkness wherever it lurks. It may sound cheesy, but it’s exactly the kind of uplifting and inspiring story that keeps us going, just like the stories Sam told Frodo during The Two Towers.

This is why the sylvari revelation works so well for me. The Orr campaign and Scarlet saga were mere warmups and foreshadowing for this true conflict where we’ll see if the races of Tyria are truly ready to fight against those who threaten everything they care for as friendships will be tested.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Also, I get the feeling that a lot of the edges have been brushed off of many of the races. Sylvari are either good, or Nightmare Court. And the Nightmare Court so far has been presented to us as just plain evil. They like cruelty and torture, and we haven’t been given anything to make them even slightly redeemable. And the other Sylvari seem just bland in comparison, as in: They seem mostly defined by the fact that they are not their evil counterparts.

Regarding sympathetic villains and Nightmare Court, Gavin says hello. He’s among my favourite courtiers for a reason. I just wish we’d see more courtiers like him instead of the “kick every puppy I see” types.

I do agree, though, that some of the edges have been brushed off, and I certainly wouldn’t mind more moral greyness in the style of the Witcher games and novels. We’ve already seen our protagonists do some questionable actions, and now we need more sympathetic villains to balance things out.

However, I think the underlying reason for this rather black&white setting and having mostly vile villains is simple: anet wants us to be heroes, and if the villains we murder without a second thought are suddenly given sympathetic and perhaps even redeemable characteristics, it puts our heroism in a new, grey area with moral ambiguity. As already seen with player reactions from the centaur massacre scene in Seeds of Truth, this kind of ambiguity upsets some players (both forumgoers and people in game based on what I’ve witnessed in chat), and adding even more ambiguity could lead us in new, darker places narrative-wise.

As for supposedly “bland” sylvari heroes, what about Sieran? Sure, she has a somewhat stereotypic personality, but I found her quite memorable. We have a few other intriguing sylvari in the storyline too although sadly most aren’t given enough screentime to be fleshed out unless you choose specific story paths which let us see their development.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Asura now seem to get along just fine with everyone.

Asura may seem nice and friendly on the outside, but inside those little, scheming heads of theirs they have big plans in store for us. Who better to show what they can be capable of than the esteemed High Councillor Flax himself as seen in Lines of Communication PS mission:

Flax: Your alacrity is inspiring, but you really must leave governing to those equipped to handle it. The council will decide what’s best for Rata Sum.
Player: What about the rest of Tyria?
Flax: Don’t be absurd. The world’s best and only hope is for us to start running it. When Rata Sum defeats the dragons, Tyria will fall to its knees and beg us to rule it.

The ideas are there, hidden in the stories and dialogues. You just have to look for them.

I think Malafide’s objection, Kossage, is that such things are hidden. Mix a few raisins into your porridge if you will, but their presence doesn’t change that whether you enjoy the meal or not will still hinge on how bland you find porridge.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

I think Malafide’s objection, Kossage, is that such things are hidden. Mix a few raisins into your porridge if you will, but their presence doesn’t change that whether you enjoy the meal or not will still hinge on how bland you find porridge.

This is why people roleplay you know, to add a little spice, a little sugar, or something to the porridge if they find it bland. Something to do. Also the reason for speedruns, solo runs, self-limiting challenges . . . I mean, what kind of masochist invented “Solo White Mage FF1”? . . .

Not to mention the Nuzlocke Challenge

People spice their porridge as they like. I prefer it not to be overcomplicated with spices, seasonings, just in case they use sage. Sage makes my stomach upset pretty badly . . . sure, people really like it and it might make things taste good. But darn if I won’t spend the next hour chanting “Ralph!”.

But this is wholly off topic.

“I say we let him go….”

I think the biggest lesson we’ve learned is:

We still don’t know a lot about the dragons, don’t use what we saw of the minions to make rules.

I wouldn’t say we’ve “learned” that, just yet. For all we know, there’s some secret ingredient that Anet hasn’t quite unveiled to us.

Koviko.3248:

I wouldn’t say we’ve “learned” that, just yet. For all we know, there’s some secret ingredient that Anet hasn’t quite unveiled to us.

“It’s people. Sylvari greens are made of people . . . "

Sorry. It was . . . just kinda hanging out there.

What if the seeds were really dragon eggs and the pale tree is only a stage in the development of a jungle dragon, and the shadow of the dragon wasn’t trying to kill the pale tree, but release the young dragon slumbering within, and the sylvari (and fern hounds) aren’t really offspring of the pale tree or minions of the dragon, but symbiotic parasites infesting the wood-like material of the shell until such time as they hatch and go mobile.

OT Sidebar: Picture, if you will, the charr as the result of an asuran experiment in genetic engineering combining the traits of cats, cows, gorillas, and applesauce that escaped from the lab and proliferated.

Writing a better Faolain and Caithe

It is my personal opinion that Faolain could have been written a lot better, if Caithe had been made the villain, rather than the victim. This is in my opinion one of the biggest flaws in the story. Faolain was already a black-hat villain, and much to our surprise, she is.

To turn things around would have taken some guts. Caithe has always been a bit of a doe-eyed bland character in my opinion, who is always on the side of good. If the main characters in a story are not allowed to do bad things every now and then, they become dull. Very dull. Its the Mary-Sue problem.

What I wanted to see, was for Caithe to do something that justified Faolain’s deeds and position. It would have strengthened Faolain’s character, and made her more sympathetic, and less black-hat. And it would have given Caithe a dark side, which ultimately would have benefited her character as well.

Now I’ll be going into a bit of spoiler stuff regarding this episode of the Living Story, so tags up:

Caithe is the villain though? Not comically evil like Faolain but the story ended with us learning the awful things she did in her past, just before she steals the egg again and leaves us at the mercy of Mordremoth’s beast. I don’t think her betrayal is going to get a pass, at least not without some serious attempt at redemption.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

To turn things around would have taken some guts. Caithe has always been a bit of a doe-eyed bland character in my opinion, who is always on the side of good. If the main characters in a story are not allowed to do bad things every now and then, they become dull. Very dull. Its the Mary-Sue problem.

I think we’re assuming that two-year-old Caithe is the same character as twenty-five-year-old Caithe. I think she was simply very suggestible in her young age and maybe her immediate regret after stabbing Wynne helped to shape her character from that point. At some point, she was able to stand for herself as she didn’t follow Faolain into Nightmare. But she followed Wynne’s order immediately as though they were from the Pale Tree, herself.

What I assume we are looking at is Caithe’s character development from an innocent—yet dangerous—young bloom to the independent, more restrained mentor we see today.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Writing a better Faolain and Caithe

It is my personal opinion that Faolain could have been written a lot better, if Caithe had been made the villain, rather than the victim. This is in my opinion one of the biggest flaws in the story. Faolain was already a black-hat villain, and much to our surprise, she is.

To turn things around would have taken some guts. Caithe has always been a bit of a doe-eyed bland character in my opinion, who is always on the side of good. If the main characters in a story are not allowed to do bad things every now and then, they become dull. Very dull. Its the Mary-Sue problem.

What I wanted to see, was for Caithe to do something that justified Faolain’s deeds and position. It would have strengthened Faolain’s character, and made her more sympathetic, and less black-hat. And it would have given Caithe a dark side, which ultimately would have benefited her character as well.

I don’t see how doing that to Caithe strengthens Faolain. What’d be better is seeing Faolain earlier developing this rebellious side and only Caithe seeming to ‘get her’ while the other Firstborn try to ‘correct her mistakes’. Oh, wait, we do see some inkling of that in the meeting, along with her talking to a ‘Secondborn’ to say “hey, I like your ideas and want to subscribe to your newsletter”. Really, Faolain’s status as “total unrepentant villain” is fine. I’m not the sort of person who thinks it’s really necessary to excuse someone just being . . . well, “obvious villain”.

Back to point though – how does twisting Caithe help Faolain? The thing is, it doesn’t. All it does is twist Caithe and give another character an excuse, when they don’t need an excuse. Faolain doesn’t need an excuse to go pulling wings off of flies, because she enjoys it.

And having tried out the sylvari personal story? Caithe is not as doe-eyed bland as she seems – my character had to call her out on it, concerning her readiness to just “kill em all” with regards to Nightmare Courtiers. She comes off as downright vicious.

If you want to see a character somewhat having this done? Ceara was better handled now that there’s efforts to see her before she was Scarlet Briar and see she was an actual person rather than some caricature.

Shinzan.2908:

Caithe is the villain though? Not comically evil like Faolain but the story ended with us learning the awful things she did in her past, just before she steals the egg again and leaves us at the mercy of Mordremoth’s beast. I don’t think her betrayal is going to get a pass, at least not without some serious attempt at redemption.

I don’t expect her to try redemption, simply because she doesn’t believe she needs it. For her, this is doing what is necessary and she has to do it since nobody else was poised to do so. Not even her friends in Destiny’s Edge, or her fellow Firstborn Trahearne.

I expect her to keep right on playing that set of cards until she gets axed.

I don’t think that Caithe is turned into victim or villain with the revelation in “Point of No Return”. Huge stacks of literature, both good and bad, not to mention movies, are devoted to what sentient creatures will do for “love”. I think that fairly well precludes Caithe making a spur-of-the-moment decision to stop Faolain who, at that point, hadn’t really done anything except perhaps be a little over zealous in taking out enemies of the Sylvari, namely the Inquest, and showing some interest in what Cadeyrn is saying. We know a lot more about what’s coming than Caithe does at that moment.

Caithe’s actions towards Wynne also make sense in that she does know the tenacity of Faolain and she probably also knows what Faolain will do with the knowledge even though she hasn’t gotten to the point of action for herself with regard to Faolain – hope springs eternal. She’s also just received an incredible piece of information and is probably monumentally horrified and confused. Asking a couple of questions at that moment might have been better but, there you are. At the same time Wynne, obviously holding no illusions about Faolain, knows what she’s in for and is begging Caithe to do it both to keep the knowledge from Faolain and spare herself from Faolin’s tender mercies. At the same time I do have to say that I kind of object to the short hand the writers used here that counts on the PC knowing the history of Faolain so that they automatically assume Faolain is going to mercilessly torture Wynne for the information.

For me it was a great moment and doesn’t change the character of Caithe at all as she’s been painted from the beginning as a “get things done” kind of girl who’s got some pain in her past. With regard to the egg it doesn’t seem right to condemn her since we don’t know what she’s doing yet – her only crime being depriving the PC of returning triumphantly with the egg and maybe disappointing the Pale Tree.

Also, it’s been said that Faolain is being painted with a broad stroke as evil which is true in a lot of ways (e.g. destroying the dream to convert the Pale Tree) but I have to say that I see a glimmer of something else. Faolain’s always been about setting her people free from a boxed philosophy in favor of a wild world of freedom and choice – surely a good thing. What she’s done though is make a “religion” of it which has ironically switched one boxed philosophy for another as she tries to “persuade” sylvari to her point of view which is obviously the “correct” one. She’s definitely lost her way. I’m wondering if she’ll turn around with the new revelation – the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Assuming the Nightmare is not a Mordremoth endoctrination mechanism.

Good stuff!

What makes Caithe’s action there a shade of grey rather than murder is that Faolain had already recruited allies – allies that she might have informed that Wynne had a secret. Were Faolain to have been the one who died in the cave (assuming Caithe and Wynne won the fight – Wynne doesn’t seem to be a fighter, and Faolain is one of the most powerful mesmers around when we meet her in Twilight Arbor, although she may not have been so powerful then) then Caithe and Wynne would still have to be perpetually on their guard for an unknown number of courtiers looking for an opportunity to get Wynne’s secret out of her. This way, Faolain was left believing that Wynne’s secret died with her and that there was no further point to pursuing it.

• If we assume Caithe was innocent and illogical, then it makes sense for her to listen to Wynne.
• If we assume Caithe was insightful and conniving, it also makes sense that she would kill Wynne.
• If we assume Caithe was lovestruck and naive, hoping to “fix” her love or not to confront what her love has truly become, she would kill Wynne to keep Faolain from committing a horrible crime in front of her (maybe).

In all of these scenarios, Caithe chose her easiest option. Eventually, I hope we’ll find out which was the real Caithe.

There’s still her running of with the egg in the present too. We can assume what she’s up to is no good otherwise she could just tell the others and we’d help, so it seems whatever she’s going to do with it is something she knows our characters wouldn’t allow.

I disagree. I think it’s logical to assume that based on the quality of past episodes, we’ll probably be served another idiot-ball plot, where Caithe is trying to accomplish something that she just as easily could have told us about, thus preventing this huge chase. That is my expectation, and my expectations are turned way down.

Shinzan.2908:

Caithe is the villain though? Not comically evil like Faolain but the story ended with us learning the awful things she did in her past, just before she steals the egg again and leaves us at the mercy of Mordremoth’s beast. I don’t think her betrayal is going to get a pass, at least not without some serious attempt at redemption.

Well if the final words before the confrontation with the Shadow of the Dragon was any indication, it looks like Anet has already decided for us that we must forgive her, because she says she’s on the same side as we are.

Unless Anet suddenly turns GW2 into an open PvP game I don’t think we’ll ever get any other choice than to just cope with Caithe and the rest of the Sylvari.

The story does seem to be telling us that Caithe is good and intends to do good with the egg, but she runs from us even after we learn her secret. Either Anet is making Caithe stupid or there’s still something she isn’t telling (and won’t tell) us.

Maybe she’s gathering magical items for Mordremoth or for the Pale Tree.

EDIT: wrote seed instead of egg… mornings…

Koviko.3248:

The story does seem to be telling us that Caithe is good and intends to do good with the seed, but she runs from us even after we learn her secret. Either Anet is making Caithe stupid or there’s still something she isn’t telling (and won’t tell) us.

Maybe she’s gathering magical items for Mordremoth or for the Pale Tree.

Well to be fair…

Caithe was most likely carrying Glint’s egg in the backpack she was wearing during that mission, and with the cave getting invaded by the Shadow of the Dragon and other Mordrum, she probably didn’t want to risk even the slightest chance of the egg coming into contact with them. Lest something horrible might happen.

@Koviko: My pet theory is that Caithe took the egg to protect it from US. Why? Remember that whole Omadd’s machine thing? The same device that drove Scarlet crazy? And that we also went into (if inadvertently)?

What if Caithe knows that we’ve actually been secretly corrupted by Mordremoth already, and she’s keeping the egg from us because as soon as it falls into our hands, Mordremoth mentally dominates us and forces us to bring the egg to him?

To get around this, our characters will need to be “purified” by undergoing a magical rite that protects us from Mordremoth’s control (i.e. we are going to undergo Ascension, with all the recent hints that divine magic counters Dragon corruption). Once that happens, Caithe can then give the egg safely back to us.

Zaxares.5419:

@Koviko: My pet theory is that Caithe took the egg to protect it from US. Why? Remember that whole Omadd’s machine thing? The same device that drove Scarlet crazy? And that we also went into (if inadvertently)?

What if Caithe knows that we’ve actually been secretly corrupted by Mordremoth already, and she’s keeping the egg from us because as soon as it falls into our hands, Mordremoth mentally dominates us and forces us to bring the egg to him?

To get around this, our characters will need to be “purified” by undergoing a magical rite that protects us from Mordremoth’s control (i.e. we are going to undergo Ascension, with all the recent hints that divine magic counters Dragon corruption). Once that happens, Caithe can then give the egg safely back to us.

No, no, no no no… Please no… Not Mass Effect 3 again…
My fanfiction exposition is getting to toxic levels by now.

Lore becomes useless when no effort is made to be consistent. What is the point in making the Sylvari dragon minons? Angst? We might as well make Guild Wars a Space adventure first person shooter. Those are popular, right?

Wake me up when they’ve moved on from the Sylvari to focus on other races.

Zhaneel.9208:

What is the point in making the Sylvari dragon minons?

You mean, besides origins? Why did the Asura take up Ratasum? You’d have rather them just pop into existence and pretend like they were never underground to begin with. Or why is Divinity’s Reach the heart of human civilization? Well because Ascalon got nuked, that’s why.

Ronin.7381:

Zhaneel.9208:

What is the point in making the Sylvari dragon minons?

You mean, besides origins?

I know right. An entire race doesn’t just fall from trees you know.
oh wait..

Zhaneel.9208:

Lore becomes useless when no effort is made to be consistent. What is the point in making the Sylvari dragon minons? Angst? We might as well make Guild Wars a Space adventure first person shooter. Those are popular, right?

Wake me up when they’ve moved on from the Sylvari to focus on other races.

i’m surprised there really are people that believe it was a recent decision.

As a lover of Sylvari I am upset that it actually turned out this way. I didn’t want my favorite race to be dragon minions. It seems really out of place for you to play a Race that may potentially all be corrupted (well, except for the players themselves, unless we become the “evil” race in a game that doesn’t have “good” or “evil” races I.E EQ2 dark elves were evil, wood elves were good but you could switch factions)

I do kind of see how it was foreshadowed though. I completely forgot about the opening personal story where you fight a kind of dragon shadow monster before you wake from the Dream.

Since I have to suck it up, this is what I think.

The Sylvari are different than other minions because the Pale Tree was planted long before she was supposed to be, possibly also Malyck’s tree. Without direct Dragon influence, the sylvari were able to be born kind of like any other race, with their own thoughts and ideas. The Pale Tree, knowing what she was “meant” for, but not under Direct influence, decided to live how she wanted, and let her children live how they wanted. But to protect them she also shielded them from Indirect influence from the sleeping dragon. I guess maybe the Nightmare court sylvari were just more susceptible to his sleepy time influence and gave into those thoughts.

Also, who knows how long it would have taken for the Pale Trees to grow under Direct dragon influence, maybe it took 200+ years because she was not receiving Mordy’s power. Maybe Mordy Trees only take years to grow, therefore there would be no reason to have the Seeds planted before Mordy awoke. Sylvari could have sprouted out in record time.

It’s Lore, and we don’t know all 100% of it, but it would be nice if the Anet team would explain in detail the path of the sylvari that they had in mind, so we’d get a clear picture.

I kind of want to say more but at the moment my thoughts escaped and went into la la land -_-

“The work around there would be seeds, meant to be grown and fed by the dragon’s power around his awakening. The Pale Tree’s seed was removed from his influence and planted long before it could feed off of him, leading it to be fed and influenced by the “pure” magic than flows through Tyria. Considering the size of the tree, the roots probably hit a ley line somewhere. Therefore it has been sustained by an entire different form of magic as compared to other dragon minions.
It would seem that before awakening, he was still too weak to form any real champions, let alone control a champion that was born early and raised outside of his influence. The tree was planted and became conscious and alive around 300 years before Mordremoth was supposed to awaken and around 250 years before he actually did awaken. That alone drastically sets it apart from other champions which either existed before or were created around/after the dragon’s awakening.”

The context I got from all this being that the dragon’s Champions were all created by their minions, and for whatever reason, resided NEAR their dragon overlord during their sleep. I figure either the champions were made last cycle and rested nearby until they were reactivated, (like the Great Destroyer probably was) or created just after awakening (like the Shatterer probably was). Either way, proximity was probably one of the big two factors here. The dragons wouldn’t have a very far reaching influence while they slept.

The other factor being the material of the minion/champion. Stone, crystal, and even undead minions can likely be made today, deactivated for x thousands of years, then recalled after a few millenia. Plants are not so long lasting. Mordremoth’s minions seem to be a lot more organic than other minions, excepting maybe Zhaitan’s. This would make longevity for his minions a bit of a problem UNLESS he preserves his future minions in the form of seeds. Much like how conifers survived the ice age by using cones as organic stasis pods, Mordremoth’s seeds would be the stasis for his minions later on, and kept close by where his influence would reach said seeds, even while he was in deep sleep.

Thus the problem arises when some prick comes along and takes these seeds a little outside the range of where Mordremoth’s current influence lies. Breaking the Pale Tree out of her creator’s influence might not need to require a lot of energy if the dragon’s influence simply never reached her. At least not enough to morph her into a minion.

Just a thought at least.

Early morning half a cup of coffee theory about Malyck and other humanoid plants, probably already posited. Ahem.

What if the tree seeds ‘imprint’ on whoever (or whatever) handles them (possibly at a particular stage) prior to planting, and Ronan took two (or more) from the cave but only made it back with the one, having lost the other(s) due to misadventure or simple weight considerations. As in, ‘Whew, these things are heavy.’

The discarded seed(s) then sprouted and grew wherever they happened to come to rest, and produced humanoid offspring as per their ‘imprinted’ template, but without the extra influence/guidance of a kindly old centaur. Tree(s) and offspring — blank slates, as it were. Tabulas rasa. Tabuli?

Need moar coffee…