Guild Wars 2

BobbyStein.2315:

lakdav.3694:

Well they did move away from most of the things they said during development (see the manifesto), it only figures that interview-lore isnt sacred either.

Unless we’ve built content around something, it’s usually considered malleable from a design and lore standpoint. Occasionally we decide to go in a different direction months or years after the first ideas are documented or even talked about externally. In some cases that means what one member of staff says in an interview can change when it comes time to building a release. It’s part of our iterative process.

In short, go by what’s in the game.

lakdav.3694:

I wouldnt even mind to rely only on lore that is presented in the game if there would be enough lore in the game. Im still hoping for some kind of codex in the hero panel.

My advice for you and others who care about the lore is to let us know what you think of the implementation in season 2. We’ve put a lot more resources into seeding each episode with loreful bits.

As always, thanks for playing and letting us know what you think.

Thanks for all the effort. I know this only benefits a small section of people, but any GW1 lore that could be folded into the story in a sensible way would be greatly appreciated by me and probably many others that played the first game.

narwhalsbend.7059:

Thanks for all the effort. I know this only benefits a small section of people, but any GW1 lore that could be folded into the story in a sensible way would be greatly appreciated by me and probably many others that played the first game.

I’d rather it get folded and thrown into a trash can then going retcons upon retcons.

On a lighter note, S2 seems nice. But since we can’t trust anything out of the game, and anything in the game is prone to “first person analysis, it wasn’t the truth”, I guess there’s no point in giving a kitten about the lore behind everything.

Edit : But hey, since nothing is set in stone : If Scarlet was born in 1304 and the firstborns were born in 1302, and right as she stepped out of the dream she saw Mender Serimon, when was Cadeyrn, the first secondborn, born ?

BobbyStein.2315:

lakdav.3694:

Well they did move away from most of the things they said during development (see the manifesto), it only figures that interview-lore isnt sacred either.

Unless we’ve built content around something, it’s usually considered malleable from a design and lore standpoint. Occasionally we decide to go in a different direction months or years after the first ideas are documented or even talked about externally. In some cases that means what one member of staff says in an interview can change when it comes time to building a release. It’s part of our iterative process.

In short, go by what’s in the game.

lakdav.3694:

I wouldnt even mind to rely only on lore that is presented in the game if there would be enough lore in the game. Im still hoping for some kind of codex in the hero panel.

My advice for you and others who care about the lore is to let us know what you think of the implementation in season 2. We’ve put a lot more resources into seeding each episode with loreful bits.

As always, thanks for playing and letting us know what you think.

Woooooow. Is that really all you have to say?

You could at least explain why this change was made. Even if it’s made up on the spot. It’d raise your credibility.

But instead you say what is effectively “be ready to disregard anything not in the game.” For argument’s sake, I’ll pretend you said games and books. Otherwise we’d have to disregard all lore in GW1 and the three novels!

Tell me, should we disregard An Empire Divided (which is the source for almost all the lore on Shiro and Cantha’s history) too? And the GW1 manuals – after all, they weren’t in-game. Or how about the lore tidbits provided in Art of Guild Wars from the Prophecies CE which gives insights that was never brought up in-game (such as old Krytan funerals being performed on swamps, where the bodies are wrapped up and stood up on boats before being pushed off)? Should we disregard each and every interview, which gives hundreds of fascinating bits of lore? Was the Dolyak Express focusing on lore pointless then since you can change what’s given at a whim?

I suppose this also means that if we hate an interview like the poor reception this one with Angel McCoy got. Or even "the clarification posts made by you devs regarding unclear points in either interviews or the game itself – of which there’s even more than the total number of interviews?

Shall we just toss it all out then, because kitten it! You can just change it at a whim, because it’s not “in game”. But hell, even the things you present in-game get changed! Steam creatures’ origins got changed! The mentality and believability of krait and dredge and Flame Legion got changed!

It isn’t just “what isn’t in game is malleable” with you guys is it? Because you even alter the things presented in-game.

With you, it’s more of “we’ll change anything in our lore to fit our current design” isn’kitten So I must ask you this Bobby:

What the kitten are your continuity designers doing in which they’re not creating a continuity but a retcontinuity!

This destroys the story’s credibility, putting it on par to WoW with how often things get changed and retcon to fit the new releases. You might as well start writing the lore on toilet paper because that’ll stop plugging up the toilet when you flush the lore down. And don’t bother arguing that’s not what you do, because that’s exactly what you admitted to doing even if you don’t use those words. “Actions speak louder than words” and your actions have spoken a cacophony.

This is truly saddening that this was your reply Bobby. It destroys all credibility there is in any forum post or interview ever had and ever will be had. Hell, at this point you can even retcon those short stories put on the web because “it’s not in game.”

There is so little lore in the game that if someone were to just play the game they’d think that the world is a bland and boring place! How do I know this? I’ve seen people say that! And I had to go into great detail, linking dozens of articles and interviews and forum posts, to clarify otherwise! But it was only because of the lore that’s presented out of the game that I could convince them that it wasn’t the bland and boring game they believed it to be – and now you’re saying that you can toss all that lore, all those explanations and expositions, out the window at a whim?

Why not just say that there is no lore, Bobby, because that’s effectively what your words are meaning.

-continued in next post-

I have loved this game and its lore for 7 strong years. I didn’t even take a break from playing GW1 until GW2 came out since I started playing at the beginning of July 2006. It wasn’t until last winter that I took a break from GW2. You managed to undo 7 years of strong followship in a single year. I suppose it is only fair that just after my 8th anniversary of playing this game, you go and put in what seems to be the final nail in the coffin for GW’s lore. I loved the game, Bobby, I loved the story. I joined the Test Krewe the moment I could because of such, and defended Anet and did other things that I cannot speak about due to NDA because of my love for the game and its story. But now? That love has all but gone, Bobby, destroyed by the utter clusterkitten to the lore that Scarlet Briar was (and what the kitten is with that over propagandizing of Scarlet? She’s not a good character, stop trying to pretend she is – Abaddon and Shiro were far better villains, and they never got an ounce of the attention Scarlet’s getting), and now by further contradictions and now outright making old lore “malleable”.

Old, established lore are the pillars of a continuing story. A poor writer does retroactive continuities. A good writer works in a way to explain why old ‘facts’ became ‘lies’ and uses that to boost the story. A great writer puts in what they want while not destroying the established pillars of the story. GW1 throughout its lifespan did the last; GW2 at release did the middle; and the Living Story is the first.

I don’t think I even want to play the game anymore, Bobby. I truly don’t. I think this will end up being my last post on the forums. For now, though, I’ll continue log in to unlock the future stories, and I’ll stalk the forums – only in hopes that you (ArenaNet’s writers) and Guild Wars returns to being a great story made by great writers.

StinVec.3621:

Lohre.9031:

Has anyone else noticed something strange behind her bookshelf thing? It looks like a tunnel.

Someone posted (I can’t find the post anymore found it) about how the house hadn’t fully loaded up for them when they approached it and they saw a cave behind the bookshelf. Also mentioned speculation on Taimi finding the cave, disappearing, and then our going in search after her. Seems like a possibility as to what may come.

That is interesting. My buddy showed me this while we were replaying the story last night. You just stand next to the book shelf and move your camera to try to look behind it. It looks like there is a carve out. I thought it could just be a rough wall, but every other piece of the wall (even behind objects) is smooth. So it has to be there for a reason?

Thank you for your posts, Konig Des Todes (your two latest and all others prior)!
I tried to put my frustration and utter disgust at his response into the appropriate words, but I could not.
However, your posts managed it magnificently!
Thank you for your past dedication to the lore and your engaging and intriguing discussions. I’ve truly enjoyed reading your words and thank you for frequently giving me quite a lot to think about.

BobbyStein.2315:

lakdav.3694:

Well they did move away from most of the things they said during development (see the manifesto), it only figures that interview-lore isnt sacred either.

Unless we’ve built content around something, it’s usually considered malleable from a design and lore standpoint. Occasionally we decide to go in a different direction months or years after the first ideas are documented or even talked about externally. In some cases that means what one member of staff says in an interview can change when it comes time to building a release. It’s part of our iterative process.

In short, go by what’s in the game.

lakdav.3694:

I wouldnt even mind to rely only on lore that is presented in the game if there would be enough lore in the game. Im still hoping for some kind of codex in the hero panel.

My advice for you and others who care about the lore is to let us know what you think of the implementation in season 2. We’ve put a lot more resources into seeding each episode with loreful bits.

As always, thanks for playing and letting us know what you think.

Indeed and i am glad to see more lore in this release than most of Season 1 put together. Looking forward to the rest of season 2 especially if i can expect similar levels of lore bits in them.

As you might have realized though, the lore community’s stance became rather troubled about having to doubt most things that we took as fact from out-of-game sources.

I think it would greatly help the continuity of the game and the (now somewhat shaken) lore discussions if the game itself had some kind of kodex that unlocks specific topics as we discover them in the game. Even if its just a collection of what we heard on a specific topic from NPCs that can be wrong, or texts that can be biased or whatever source we gain the in-game knowledge of the lore from. That still allows later iteration on the "why"s and "how"s of the story.

It would also help the writer team to keep track of what is stated lore in the game (and whats open to interpretation), and what they said years ago outside the game that can be dropped as part of the iterative process.

I understand that would require a bit of backpaddling to build it up from the start of the game to get to the present day Living story episodes (not even counting the yet un-replayable season 1 lore bits), but i think it would be a good implementation to deepen the game experience.

StinVec.3621:

Thank you for your posts, Konig Des Todes (your two latest and all others prior)!
I tried to put my frustration and utter disgust at his response into the appropriate words, but I could not.
However, your posts managed it magnificently!
Thank you for your past dedication to the lore and your engaging and intriguing discussions. I’ve truly enjoyed reading your words and thank you for frequently giving me quite a lot to think about.

x2

StinVec.3621:

Thank you for your posts, Konig Des Todes (your two latest and all others prior)!
I tried to put my frustration and utter disgust at his response into the appropriate words, but I could not.
However, your posts managed it magnificently!
Thank you for your past dedication to the lore and your engaging and intriguing discussions. I’ve truly enjoyed reading your words and thank you for frequently giving me quite a lot to think about.

This. Please don’t leave.

Eluveitie.1290:

Just going to say you guys outdone yourselves with the quality of the story and content so far. Keep at it, good work!

The whole community, in general, is loving season 2 so far.

Speak for yourself. While I cannot deny the fact that S2 did get better somewhat, the metaphor I find the most telling to describe these stories is this: a feast made up of several courses. The first dish was so revoltingly bad my stomach is hurting all over, while my mouth cannot escape the horrid tastes left within. Here comes the second dish; it looks a lot better on the outside, and I start fantasizing about its heavenly deliciousness, but have to realize that nothing will fix the damage the first catastrophic meal caused to my digestive system. I hope that it will lessen the damage. I take the first bite; not terrible, which is a relief. Aesthetically (Dry Top map design & scenery) it’s almost a masterpiece, it sure has some pleasant-like tastes making the experience better, but the aftertaste leaves only sourness… I look down upon the opened food and notice some strange elements inside. I cannot tell whether it’s just an unidentifiable ingredient I dislike, or those are really the things I’m thinking: maggots if not whole flies cooked into it. While fighting the disgust and the urge to throw up, I glance towards the kitchen, and my watering eyes take in the horrific visage of the upcoming dishes.

And as I’m writing these lines, the perfect — personal — analogy comes to my mind: this Living World is a canonical Scarab Plague (ironic that Mr Stein’s declaration can pose an actual threat to the established lore of that event, with the scythe of blatant, senseless retcon hanging overhead). It infects the lore of Guild Wars, then has abominable vermin boiling forth from the torn, bodily crevasses of the dying story elements.

Returning to the matter at hand; if this what you call good work, I’d rather they not keep at it, but stand up, throw their pens and keyboards away, and never continue.
___________________

Regarding Mr Stein’s reply and behavior… I’m speechless. First your confirmation that you do not give a kitten about the PC, his/her story and personality… now this. Deep down I’ve known this was their approach, since I’m sure back in the past when I’d lashed out at them I had made claims concerning their handling of old lore that could not be proven entirely at that time. That they even admit it is just… no comment.

I cannot add anything to Konig’s excellent points. What I can say is that I’m shaken that even he — the true loremaster who’s always looked beyond what was shown to find a measure of hope, to find a bit of dialogue or punctuation or subtle change in NPC behavior most of us glanced over to try to make sense of the mess that was tossed into the game release after release — now feels the way I’ve been feeling for almost a year now. I was reading his lines and I sensed the same emotion radiating from them as the one I give into when I heatedly, offensively make a desperate attempt to steer the writing away from murdering Guild Wars — which led to nowhere, mind you, but at least I now know that no matter how polite (or impolite) I am, they just simply don’t care… at all.

I returned to this game after seven months of almost constant absence. I hoped it was an ample amount of time to withdraw from my love of Guild Wars but I was wrong. I thought I could play it without any emotion, not minding the ruin and desecration that had been and is being done to this day. But I just can’t. And I know that no matter how hard I’ll try, I won’t be able to quit for good. I will return every now and then just to expose myself to the same torment again and again, still hoping a brighter day would come. But it never will.

I’m sure I’m going to get raged at for this, but I’m gonna be that guy. I can take it.

I’m not understanding what Konig is rage-quitting about, in regards to changing the lore/retconning, in this particular instance. I’m not sure changing Scarlet’s age is something worth quitting the game for. it is a very, very minor detail in the grand scheme of things.

It’s always a general policy, that The Game > Everything else. Books, Interviews, Movies, TV Shows. This is universal, not specific to GW2. You all should know this already.

What happens in The Game always takes precedence over what happens in the Books/Interviews/whatever. When there is a conflict between something said out of game by a Developer, or something that takes place in a Book, and something that happens in the game, you always go with what happens in The Game. The Game is always the prime source of lore, and it always should be.

Just like Star Wars, anything that happens in the Movies takes precedence over anything that happens in a game or book, because the Movies are the prime source of lore.

You go with what is said in interviews and in books, until the Game contradicts it. Then you go with the Game. that is standard procedure for pretty much any MMORPG.

Game Lore > Book Lore > Interview Lore. always.

It is ANet’s job to make sure all three sources do not contradict, but if they deem that it works better ingame for something to be a certain way that contradicts an Interview, then that’s how it needs to be. And it is also ANet’s job to make sure that these contradictions/retcons are few and far between. We’ll just have to trust that this is the case, and there won’t be any mass retcons of everything.

we can be upset and rage about it now, but it won’t change, and we’ll adjust to it. Or we can move to another game, and then rage-quit there, when something that happened in a Book gets retconned by something that happens ingame.

I think everyone needs to have a coke and smile, and take a few deep breaths. the entirety of GW lore is not changing. just Scarlet’s age.

Oh I get what Konig is raging about alright, and he is right. To put things in perspective, he and many other people of the lore community have been dedicated for over 7 years to map out all of the Guild Wars lore. They have been thoroughly collecting and investigating lore from both inside and outside the game. And that’s a wealth of information. But what Bobby stated, basically means that we can pretty much chuck our beloved GW1 manuscripts in the privy.

So yes, I understand the anger and frustration. I love the old GW1 lore, and when I heard how the Bloodstones and the history of magic in Tyria basically got retconned, it angered me. It basically meant that my favorite bit of lore was now void, and could be crossed out. (and I still do not accept it to this day, you can’t just erase the most important event in GW1’s history)

And to be clear, I do enjoy Living Story season 2 so far, and I think the writing is good. But I like the established lore better. I don’t like it when established lore gets chucked in the garbage can. This is kind of insulting to the whole lore community, to think that all that they’ve been collecting has basically been a waste of their time (over 7 years).

JMadFour.9730:

I’m sure I’m going to get raged at for this, but I’m gonna be that guy. I can take it.

I’m not understanding what Konig is rage-quitting about, in regards to changing the lore/retconning, in this particular instance. I’m not sure changing Scarlet’s age is something worth quitting the game for. it is a very, very minor detail in the grand scheme of things.

It’s always a general policy, that The Game > Everything else. Books, Interviews, Movies, TV Shows. This is universal, not specific to GW2. You all should know this already.

What happens in The Game always takes precedence over what happens in the Books/Interviews/whatever. When there is a conflict between something said out of game by a Developer, or something that takes place in a Book, and something that happens in the game, you always go with what happens in The Game. The Game is always the prime source of lore, and it always should be.

Just like Star Wars, anything that happens in the Movies takes precedence over anything that happens in a game or book, because the Movies are the prime source of lore.

You go with what is said in interviews and in books, until the Game contradicts it. Then you go with the Game. that is standard procedure for pretty much any MMORPG.

Game Lore > Book Lore > Interview Lore. always.

It is ANet’s job to make sure all three sources do not contradict, but if they deem that it works better ingame for something to be a certain way that contradicts an Interview, then that’s how it needs to be. And it is also ANet’s job to make sure that these contradictions/retcons are few and far between. We’ll just have to trust that this is the case, and there won’t be any mass retcons of everything.

we can be upset and rage about it now, but it won’t change, and we’ll adjust to it. Or we can move to another game, and then rage-quit there, when something that happened in a Book gets retconned by something that happens ingame.

I think everyone needs to have a coke and smile, and take a few deep breaths. the entirety of GW lore is not changing. just Scarlet’s age.

That may be so, but it’s annoying when we’re left with just the old information to work with, without knowing what has changed and what hasn’t. Moreover, this has seemingly been done just to accommodate a single sylvari, who breaks away from all previously established lore. Though I have an interest in the lore, I’m not sure anymore if it’s worth reading up on it if everything I read may be tossed away whenever a writer feels like it.

I can understand Konig’s feelings on this. It’s not the first time something like this has happened (Bloodstones, calendar, etc.), and going by Bobby’s post, I’m sure it won’t be the last. It’s really a kitten annoyance that it’s being said like this.

I may not be someone who joins in on the discussions and theories, but I love to read them. I guess I’ll have to miss that from now on.

JMadFour.9730:

Game Lore > Book Lore > Interview Lore. always.

That is all.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Oh I get what Konig is raging about alright, and he is right. To put things in perspective, he and many other people of the lore community have been dedicated for over 7 years to map out all of the Guild Wars lore. They have been thoroughly collecting and investigating lore from both inside and outside the game. And that’s a wealth of information. But what Bobby stated, basically means that we can pretty much chuck our beloved GW1 manuscripts in the privy.

So yes, I understand the anger and frustration. I love the old GW1 lore, and when I heard how the Bloodstones and the history of magic in Tyria basically got redconned, it angered me. It basically meant that my favorite bit of lore was now void, and could be crossed out.

And to be clear, I do enjoy Living Story season 2 so far, and I think the writing is good. But I like the established lore better. I don’t like it when established lore gets chucked in the garbage can. This is kind of insulting to the whole lore community, to think that all that they’ve been collecting has basically been a waste of their time (over 7 years).

he said nothing of the sort.

He said that the Game takes priority when two things contradict each other. that’s always been the case, and it will always be the case, and it is something everyone here should have already known, if you have any Gaming experience at all. He shouldn’t have had to say this in the first place. It’s standard procedure.

He didn’t say that the entirety of all GW lore that exists doesn’t exist anymore.

you all are reading that into what he actually said, so that you can throw a temper tantrum about Scarlet’s age.

I agree, this is blown way out of proportion. Its not like the game’s lore imploded on itself. It just lost a lot of “facts” that we took granted because a dev said it at one point or another. Many of those were unknown to the masses who played the game because they were only present in some years old interview stuck in the archives of a gaming magazine or some other hidden and forgotten corner of internet history.

And what we lost from facts we get back as possibilities. And possibilities have the tendency to multiply. That will be a lot of maybes and a lot of speculations, but i dont mind maybes as much as the most serious(ly kittened off) people here.

Actually it makes the story somewhat more interesting for me. Not knowing more than what my character knows has its own feel of immersion, and as long as that immersion is not broken by contradicting what my character experienced, i will endure and maybe even enjoy the game’s story further.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Oh I get what Konig is raging about alright, and he is right. To put things in perspective, he and many other people of the lore community have been dedicated for over 7 years to map out all of the Guild Wars lore. They have been thoroughly collecting and investigating lore from both inside and outside the game. And that’s a wealth of information. But what Bobby stated, basically means that we can pretty much chuck our beloved GW1 manuscripts in the privy.

So yes, I understand the anger and frustration. I love the old GW1 lore, and when I heard how the Bloodstones and the history of magic in Tyria basically got redconned, it angered me. It basically meant that my favorite bit of lore was now void, and could be crossed out.

And to be clear, I do enjoy Living Story season 2 so far, and I think the writing is good. But I like the established lore better. I don’t like it when established lore gets chucked in the garbage can. This is kind of insulting to the whole lore community, to think that all that they’ve been collecting has basically been a waste of their time (over 7 years).

he said nothing of the sort.

He said that the Game takes priority when two things contradict each other. that’s always been the case, and it will always be the case, and it is something everyone here should have already known, if you have any Gaming experience at all.

He didn’t say that the entirety of all GW lore that exists doesn’t exist anymore.

you all are reading that into what he actually said, so that you can throw a temper tantrum about Scarlet’s age.

I will try to explain why Konig and so many others are baffled by this.

I was going to write a long story, but I’ll cut it really short.

In case people have forgotten, a year ago one of the major complaints was that Anet didn’t give the lore in-game, but out of the game through interviews, blog posts and short stories.
Today we get told “don’t believe any of that kitten”.

Unlike your examples, the book, game, interviews are supposed to be done by the same team. At more or less the same time.
So if the game is priority, why the hell waste everyone’s time with interviews and short stories and books ?
What’s next Abaddon making a come back ?

JMadFour.9730:

I think everyone needs to have a coke and smile, and take a few deep breaths. the entirety of GW lore is not changing. just Scarlet’s age.

I know a lot on GW1’s lore, but after a few “nope wasn’t the absolute truth” I got tired and gave up on following the lore of GW2 and trying to find out what was true and what wasn’t.

Of course I won’t quit this game. I stopped playing this game for lore during BWE1. Since then, I simply follow the on-going story. During S1 from really far away, but I’m giving it a chance for S2.
But seeing that we’re supposed to be suspicious of a mesmer saying “I know she’s lying”, I don’t know how long until I simply click everywhere to get my reward.

RedStar.4218:

So if the game is priority, why the hell waste everyone’s time with interviews and short stories and books ?
What’s next Abaddon making a come back ?

Expanded Universe(which is short stories, books and interviews) ONLY sets lore when it does not contradict what is ingame.

It expands, adds to, what is in the game. But the Game itself is the prime source. it has to be.

Whenever the game makes a change that contradicts previous Expanded Universe content, the Game should take precedence.

GW1 is Prime Source.
GW2 is Prime Source.

everything else is EXTRA goodness.

my confusion with all the stomping and tantrum throwing, is that this is a MINOR change to be stomping and tantruming about. it is the age of a single character. changing this single character’s age does not invalidate every single piece of lore thre has ever been for Guild Wars. hell, it doesn’t really even invalidate anything at all.

yet you all are treating it as it they just said that the entirety of Guild Wars Prophecies didn’t happen.

I think you guys are making a Shiverpeak Mountain out of a Moledavia Molehill.

I think the point you are missing is that scarlets age is not the first or one of many but the final drop. It doesn’t matter how small or insignificant it is, it is the final drop that causes the system to break.
And sure enough, the statement doesn’t say all lore is invalid now, but it does say that we can’t trust it because it could become invalid anytime, even without us knowing. Taking scarlets age as an example: we “knew” until now, that the secondborn were born in 1308-1309. So 1304 didn’t make sense. But now we know that this was changed but we were never told. Not in-game, not outside of it. So everything that was based on this number just crumbled away. Of course, that 1304 is also not in-game, but on a t-shirt. So is it true? Is it a lie? Is it subject to change? We don’t know. And maybe we never will.
Sure does take away any motivation for theory-building.

JMadFour.9730:

Whenever the game makes a change that contradicts previous Expanded Universe content, the Game should take precedence.

GW1 is Prime Source.
GW2 is Prime Source.

Well according to GW2, GW1 is not prime source for lore. But it’s prime source for retconned.

But really, the bigger question is : why change it ? Why does her age mattered so much that it had to go against an interview ?
For a T-shirt. Oh wait, that’s not in the game. Pretty soon it wouldn’t surprise me if we got told that this T-shirt was wrong.

Obviously they don’t give a kitten about dates.

And also now, even the firstborns aren’t really that special since a year or so later, there were already more Sylvari.

JMadFour.9730:

RedStar.4218:

So if the game is priority, why the hell waste everyone’s time with interviews and short stories and books ?
What’s next Abaddon making a come back ?

Expanded Universe(which is short stories, books and interviews) ONLY sets lore when it does not contradict what is ingame.

It expands, adds to, what is in the game. But the Game itself is the prime source. it has to be.

Whenever the game makes a change that contradicts previous Expanded Universe content, the Game should take precedence.

GW1 is Prime Source.
GW2 is Prime Source.

everything else is EXTRA goodness.

Except that a lot of the lore, the background of important characters, their motivations and several important events found place in this Expanded Universe, making them (almost) a required read to make sense of what was happening ingame. That made the Expanded Universe and interviews a prime source of lore and quite important. We were also told that ingame characters can be wrong, which makes things even less certain.

JMadFour.9730:

my confusion with all the stomping and tantrum throwing, is that this is a MINOR change to be stomping and tantruming about. it is the age of a single character. changing this single character’s age does not invalidate every single piece of lore thre has ever been for Guild Wars. hell, it doesn’t really even invalidate anything at all.

yet you all are treating it as it they just said that the entirety of Guild Wars Prophecies didn’t happen.

I think you guys are making a Shiverpeak Mountain out of a Moledavia Molehill.

The age and birthday of that single character invalidate part of our knowledge of the history of one of the player races. A history that was told in a big lore post on the Guild Wars 2 website itself and strengthened in subsequent interviews. It may not invalidate the entirety of GW lore, but it does mean that anything we think we know, can be or may already have been changed without us knowing.

How can we attempt to create valid theories and hold interesting discussions about the lore, when the basic foundation of facts upon which we try to build them might not even exist anymore?

Hey look at the bright side ! You can always theorize on which one of Kass or Marjory is going to propose to the other or which body part will Braham injure next !

SoulyD.9125:

I think the point you are missing is that scarlets age is not the first or one of many but the final drop. It doesn’t matter how small or insignificant it is, it is the final drop that causes the system to break.
And sure enough, the statement doesn’t say all lore is invalid now, but it does say that we can’t trust it because it could become invalid anytime, even without us knowing. Taking scarlets age as an example: we “knew” until now, that the secondborn were born in 1308-1309. So 1304 didn’t make sense. But now we know that this was changed but we were never told. Not in-game, not outside of it. So everything that was based on this number just crumbled away. Of course, that 1304 is also not in-game, but on a t-shirt. So is it true? Is it a lie? Is it subject to change? We don’t know. And maybe we never will.
Sure does take away any motivation for theory-building.

Her age is now also in a new book in the Priory library, so it’s an ingame fact. As is her creating the steam creatures, proving the leylines exist and a whole slew of other things.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

Priory Durmand library

“Scarlet Briar: a Brief”

“Scarlet Briar: a brief” by Priory Scholar Donn
(read on)
Scarlet Briar: 1304 – 1327 (Sylvari, Cycle of Day)
(read on)
Her name upon awakening was Ceara, which she eventually rejected along with her roots.
(read on)
She worked with each of the asuran colleges, allowing them to study her cognitive abilities while introducing her to advanced asuran philosophies and knowledge.
(read on)
Other mentors trained her in more technical skills, including Beigarth, a Norn who lives in Hoelbrack.
(read on)
Following her time with an Asura named Omadd, she took the self-made name of Scarlet Briar and severed her ties to the Pale Tree and the Dream.
(leave)

JMadFour.9730:

he said nothing of the sort.

But that is what it amounts to. As others have explained, this is but the straw that broke the camel’s back. My earlier example of the Bloodstones was in the GW1 manuscripts. It was literally in the booklet that shipped with GW1, and they recently completely retconned it. The primary source of ALL magic in Tyria is not a minor thing to redcon.

And it’s right here: ftp://ftp.guildwars.com/downloads/gwp-manual.pdf

So, can this now also be dropped at the tip of a hat? Apparently so. And that bothers me… a lot.

JMadFour.9730:

He said that the Game takes priority when two things contradict each other. that’s always been the case, and it will always be the case, and it is something everyone here should have already known, if you have any Gaming experience at all.

But it shouldn’t contradict each other. There’s no need for it. If our lore community can keep track of these things, then surely the people responsible for continuity at Anet can do the same? Especially if they blatantly announced this as fact through various media upon the reveal of the Sylvari race.

JMadFour.9730:

He didn’t say that the entirety of all GW lore that exists doesn’t exist anymore.

But what he did say means that any of it could be retconned at the tip of a hat. Which is exactly what Konig is angry about. And I agree completely.

JMadFour.9730:

you all are reading that into what he actually said, so that you can throw a temper tantrum about Scarlet’s age.

This is about far more than Scarlet’s age. It is about the lore of the Sylvari race, and all lore connected to it. It’s about us being able to use out-of-game sources as sources for lore. We should be able to rely on lore info that was released directly by Anet in lore articles. Why even contradict it?

“The forging of the world was complete. As their final act,
the gods gathered back their gift of magic from all the
races and trapped it inside a tall stone. They smashed the
stone into five parts—four equal but opposing stones of
magic, and one keystone. Without the keystone, the other
four couldn’t be reassembled.
Each of the first four stones was the embodiment of
a specific school of magic: preservation, destruction,
aggression, and denial. Magic would still exist in the
world, but the devastating power of all four types
together would never again be at the command of one
single creature. Those who accepted the gift would have
to cooperate if they intended to use it to its fullest."

Oh no wait, disregard all that. That was just what those silly humans believed way back in GW1. Pfffft, gods! Retcon!

RedStar.4218:

Hey look at the bright side ! You can always theorize on which one of Kass or Marjory is going to propose to the other or which body part will Braham injure next !

I think Taimi will start a vendetta against Rox’s tail soon. We’ll get a golem and she’ll use Scruffy and then we’ll have a Charr Chucking mini-game.

But which color will our new golem be ? Personally, I think it’d be pink because it’s the same color as her bow.

Then again now that I really think about it, it’s probably going to be scarlet.

RedStar.4218:

But which color will our new golem be ? Personally, I think it’d be pink because it’s the same color as her bow.

Then again now that I really think about it, it’s probably going to be scarlet.

I would prefer dark blue, but I think you’re right. That would make it look a lot like an Inquest golem, though…

Faction changes confirmed!

Maybe I’ve been too much time away from the game, but when exactly they did offically retcon Bloodstones? Because it doesn’t seem so.

And regarding Bobby’s post, I think it was taken with a little too much seriousness. Things -ideas, concepts, possibilities- that were said or discussed at one point, of course, can change when it’s actually time to make them true because you’ve to factor in a lot of things or maybe a better idea came up. There’s nothing wrong with that and it’s a normal creative procedure in any company.

Thalador.4218:

Eluveitie.1290:

Just going to say you guys outdone yourselves with the quality of the story and content so far. Keep at it, good work!

The whole community, in general, is loving season 2 so far.

Speak for yourself.

Oh, I was, and for the general community that hasn’t invested their souls in the lore and are quite happy with the content in this season.

I do understand the anger you or Konig or anyone like that could feel after all those years and countless hours analyzing the lore inside out and enjoying the game. But that’s not really the majority, and no matter how hurt 2, 3 or 10 people are about how lore has changed regarding the first game, it’s not statiscally important for the developers or company.

And yes, season 1 was a complete indigestion as you put it, but they have learnt quite a bit from it and are continuing to put better content and story out. It’s not Dante’s Divine Comedy, but I’m, so far, enjoying it. Perhaps because I never experienced nor lived through Guild Wars like you or Konig; only invested several hours reading about it and a few playing the start of it. And that’s what makes up most of the community now, and Anet sees they’re mostly happy, so what matters is the big picture for them.

Move along (as you have) and keep your good memories of the game I’d say. They, probably, won’t be matched by its new version and you’ll continue to dissapoint yourself.

How can ingame lore be supreme when in-game lore contradicts itself? Look at the steam creatures. The asura personal story states that the steam creature technology wasn’t invented yet in 1325 AE but the hologram clearly says so, which is right?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

This is about far more than Scarlet’s age. It is about the lore of the Sylvari race, and all lore connected to it. It’s about us being able to use out-of-game sources as sources for lore. We should be able to rely on lore info that was released directly by Anet in lore articles. Why even contradict it?

Until I see a real reason why it was so important for her to be born in 1304 and not 1308, I will believe it’s because they don’t give a kitten and had already printed the T-shirts when they stumbled across this thread.

Errannar.8263:

Faction changes confirmed!

Of course so obvious ! Taimi is an inquest progeny ! That’s why she loves Scarlet that much ! Everything about Scarlet reminds her of the inquest.

Tim.6450:

How can ingame lore be supreme when in-game lore contradicts itself? Look at the steam creatures. The asura personal story states that the steam creature technology wasn’t invented yet in 1325 AE but the hologram clearly says so, which is right?

Allow me : Whoever in the personal story stated that didn’t know the real truth. He thought it was true but in fact it wasn’t. (it’s the excuse they used for nearly every time the game contradicted something).

Let it be clear though that any anger either me or Konig expresses here, has nothing to do directly with season 2 of the Living Story. I think the writing is much improved from season 1, and I do enjoy the content. This has to do purely with continuity. Arenanet has built GW2 on the rich lore of GW1, and to discard lore, be it old lore from GW1, or recent lore for GW2, is sloppy. And there is no need for it. Redcons are bad, and should only be done if the writers have literally written themselves into a corner. But that is not the case here. So why break away from established lore? Is continuity not an issue all of a sudden?

If we can expect more of such redcons, back-pedaling and revisions in the near future, is there any reason for the lore community to still archive the lore of Guild Wars? I can imagine that someone like Konig, and many other lore-fans might be asking themselves that very same question right now.

What we know about Steam Creatures is that they were invented by the PC in an alternate future, according to the PS. We could’ve based those designs on Scarlet’s remnants or taken as inspiration or imitation when they were found.

I don’t see the contradiction.

Edit: And as RedStar mentioned, it’s based on conjectures and opinions, it’s not a stated fact.

RedStar.4218:

Allow me : Whoever in the personal story stated that didn’t know the real truth. He thought it was true but in fact it wasn’t. (it’s the excuse they used for nearly every time the game contradicted something).

You main a possible future version of the main character who had already seen a steam minotaur in the year 1325AE? Btw who is this ‘they’ ingame? Ingame lore is supreme after all.

“They” is Anet.

Eluveitie.1290

:What we know about Steam Creatures is that they were invented by the PC in an alternate future, according to the PS. We could’ve based those designs on Scarlet’s remnants or taken as inspiration or imitation when they were found.

I don’t see the contradiction.

Those were stated steam creatures and steam creatures are invented by Scarlet before 1325. The ‘future PC’ stated that steam Creatures weren’t invented yet in 1325. Taken as inspiration would mean that they would have an other name. And improving is also ridicolous because then we invented the dagger because we can make an ascended version.

Eluveitie.1290

Edit: And as RedStar mentioned, it’s based on conjectures and opinions, it’s not a stated fact.

Then we might as well have no lore at all, because any ‘stated fact’ is based on the conjecture that the source is correct.

RedStar.4218:

“They” is Anet.

but that is interview lore and therefore lower then game lore.

Tim.6450:

Then we might as well have no lore at all, because any ‘stated fact’ is based on the conjecture that source is correct.

Hey ! You got why I practically gave up on GW lore during BWE1

And you’re going to get even more why Konig is kittened. Because as you said, nearly everything in game was based on whether or not the teller was knowing the real truth, which made everything he said retcon-able.
But interviews were deemed absolute truth.

Except now, they aren’t. So in-game is prone to change, out of game is prone to change. Such a great day for lore theories !

Tim.6450:

RedStar.4218:

“They” is Anet.

but that is interview lore and therefore lower then game lore.

I think we might having a confusion. I was simply saying that Anet loves pulling the card of “he didn’t know the real truth. He thought he did, but he didn’t”.
So in the case of the Infinity Ball, the Mysterious Stranger thinks he invented Steam Creatures. But he didn’t really. Scarlet did it before him (if you have any questions on whether or not it makes sense, I’m not your guy).

What interview?

Tim.6450:

Eluveitie.1290

:What we know about Steam Creatures is that they were invented by the PC in an alternate future, according to the PS. We could’ve based those designs on Scarlet’s remnants or taken as inspiration or imitation when they were found.

I don’t see the contradiction.

Those were stated steam creatures and steam creatures are invented by Scarlet before 1325. The ‘future PC’ stated that steam Creatures weren’t invented yet in 1325. Taken as inspiration would mean that they would have an other name. And improving is also ridicolous because then we invented the dagger because we can make an ascended version.

Eluveitie.1290

Edit: And as RedStar mentioned, it’s based on conjectures and opinions, it’s not a stated fact.

Then we might as well have no lore at all, because any ‘stated fact’ is based on the conjecture that the source is correct.

For the sake of the argument, why would we have to believe what the future PC said is true? It’s likely that it could have been a lie to cover up that he, indeed, did not invent them, but that’s what he said to everyone else. Matches asura behaviour, specially one twisted and corrupted as the future PC.

Wow, you sure are thinking like Anet lore team now !

Wow, I’m thinking like a person that is open to more than one absolute possibility, kitten me!

For those people who don’t understand, this isn’t about any bit of lore, it is about time. People don’t like investing time in something and then not getting personal fulfillment from that time investment. People invest time into MMOs in a lot of different ways and can often be disappointed. Some people have invested time into this MMO’s lore.

Stooperdale.3560:

For those people who don’t understand, this isn’t about any bit of lore, it is about time. People don’t like investing time in something and then not getting personal fulfillment from that time investment. People invest time into MMOs in a lot of different ways and can often be disappointed. Some people have invested time into this MMO’s lore.

It’s about both. They loved the lore and invested time on it. So if the team starts butchering things or taking a new path they don’t like, they’ll be dissapointed.

Problem is I’ve learnt more about the Guild Wars universe from outside of the game and to be told that now none of the articals,manuscripts,interviews etc hold any weight… I’m now left to wonder what they expect us the ones whom enjoy the story and get invested in the story are going to do.
It is clear that the writing team doesn’t know how to convey this in game, so I’m wondering why did they bother to invest in things like the atlas,the blogs,the short story’s, the countless interviews they have done.

So what is left for me to say it’s a sad day to lose Konig as he and many others have helped the writing team convey there message outside of the game because most of the subtile hints that they left in-game was too small.

Good job Bobby and co for destroying the lore comunity. Not to give to much negative feed back though I did enjoy the 1st instalment of Ls2, wasn’t perfect but I expected that from playing Ls1.

Eluveitie.1290:

For the sake of the argument, why would we have to believe what the future PC said is true? It’s likely that it could have been a lie to cover up that he, indeed, did not invent them, but that’s what he said to everyone else. Matches asura behaviour, specially one twisted and corrupted as the future PC.

Because the future PC was about to kill you. True, it is possible future!you would lie right up until your death, but that goes against all the other villain tropes that Future!PC was employing right up until their untimely demise.

There have been other retcons against in-game lore, too. The Pact, for example, is aiding the Ash Legion in the war on Flame up in Fireheart Rise. Those soldiers in CoF are explicitly stated to be Pact forces. There are no dragon minions in Fireheart, and the Flame Legion hasn’t had a serious connection to Primordus or the Destroyers in over two centuries. The Pact very clearly helped people fight dangerous non-dragon threats before Season 1 Living Story happened. Now apparently they only get involved in global issues if an Elder Dragon itself shows up and challenges Trahearne to a 1v1.

With the start of s2 I was going to really start getting into the lore, but reading this thread killed it for me. I’ll just stay with the majority of players and keep wondering when these dumb npcs will shut up so I can do my achieves.

LoopySnoopy.7923:

Problem is I’ve learnt more about the Guild Wars universe from outside of the game and to be told that now none of the articals,manuscripts,interviews etc hold any weight…

but they DO hold weight. Unless the game directly contradicts them.

Sea of Sorrows happened. Edge of Destiny happened. Ghosts of Ascalon happened.

what has changed is that Scarlet is older then we thought she was. god they really need to move away from Scarlet with the LS.

Out-of-game Lore is canon until the Game says otherwise. The game has said that Scarlet is older. the Game has not said that everything else is non-canon.

JMadFour.9730:

LoopySnoopy.7923:

Problem is I’ve learnt more about the Guild Wars universe from outside of the game and to be told that now none of the articals,manuscripts,interviews etc hold any weight…

what has changed is that Scarlet is older then we thought she was. god they really need to move away from Scarlet with the LS.

Out-of-game Lore is canon until the Game says otherwise. The game has said that Scarlet is older. the Game has not said that everything else is non-canon.

That is not what my point WAS, I’m clearly making a statement which the game now contradicts the blogs/interviews done by a Lore writer. We are supposed to believe the lore team, which we can’t really now rely upon due to these errors the Sylvari’s time line has now fully changed due to them shoe-horning scarlets(Mary-Sue) D.O.B earlier then thought.

This is not why most of the lore community is up in arms though, most of them are narked off at the thought of any out of game lore is now de-bunked this goes for WIKI articals Lore talks and there twitch talks that does lore It also means RED posts in this section they are now to be looked upon with rose tinted specs until the game says other wise……….

I’d like to say this to all and I mean no disrespect to any one “We as a community need to stop hand holding the writers how else are they going to learn to write a better compelling story when a mass majority says it’s the best content we’ve seen; it’s better then sliced bread.” They’re flag ship Guild Wars had a much better story then Guild Wars 2 which surprised me a lot 1st with the main story then with Ls1 and Ls2 so far has not been too bad but it hasn’t been great

As I see it, there are several issues underlying the problem here and none of it has to do with Scarlets age. Scarlets age is just the topic that brought this problem up, it’s not the problem itself.

First, in game lore is often presented from a first person perspective; this means that the npcs are participants in the lore, not omniscient, and error prone. Any lore we get from them is suspect but generally recognized as being in the same realm as true. However, if the npc is integral to a story any information gained must be tempered with the knowledge that it may be falsified for the story. So relying on just in game npcs for lore is problematic.

Second, games (both MMOs and Non MMOs) deal with this in one of two ways; a factual codex in the game or out of game codex or dev run wiki. Information in these sources is generally considered canon and factual because it is delivered from an omniscient third person perspective. This can be extended to player run wiki’s but because players never have 100% of the correct information it’s not always reliable.

Third, Anet has deliberately not created a codex or dev run wiki and instead guided players to outside game sources such as interviews and blog posts for in game lore. When devs do this with the intent of giving players factual lore it should be considered canon. In every game where the devs release information in this manner it is considered canon. This is fine, it is a legitimate form of providing information for players.

The problem with what Bobby said is in two parts. Part 1 is that there is a scarcity of factual in game lore. However they are trying to rectify this.

Part 2 is where the issue is. Bobby has just invalidated Anets preferred method of giving lore to players. At best he just cast suspicion on the lore for a gmpc, at worst he’s just invalidated everything out of the game including books, wikis, interviews and dev posts. Where on that spectrum you fall is up to you.

Regardless of what you think about the lore, for Bobby to state such a thing is…unusual. That kind of comment can only have negative consequences in the community and everything the lore team says from this point forward will be tainted by it. He has just made it so we can trust nothing they say. Which is just so very, very sad. My only hope is that it was a joke that came across badly.

GW2 writers wouldn’t be the first in history to have a hard time keeping track of minor details. And authors love to revise stories, sometimes even their own. These inconsistencies are minor compared to some works of fiction.

The Science Fiction author Alastair Reynolds has an number of inconstancies between his short story works and his later novels set in the same universe. He has said he simply changed his mind. It doesn’t make either the short stories or the novels any worse.

When writing the Dark Tower series of novels, Steven King relied on other people to keep track of lore for him, and he still introduced inconstancies, often deliberately, if he felt it would make for a better story. At one point, amusingly, his main character actually found a copy of a book which had early (from the authors standpoint) references to the main antagonist. The authors main character then dismissed the authors own work as misleading.

Every single time someone decides to enact one of Shakespeare’s works they change things. If they can get away with changing the works of one of the great playwrights, then I doubt too many people are going to care about some game trivia.

If it works it works. If not, it can be revised again.