Guild Wars 2

Today, I finally got around to doing the third path for Crucible of Eternity (CoE) (third for me that is) and being able to observe the dungeon in its full. As such, I’d like to present my full view on the matter of the Sixth Elder Dragon’s identity and means of corruption (which is more or less in half-agreement half-disagreement with the general public’s view). I’d post this in one of the pre-existing threads, but I fear they’re either all too focused on a single particular aspect of the general public’s view.

Subject Alpha
As some may or may not know, the main enemy in is an Inquest-created multi-Elder Dragon minion known as “Subject Alpha” – this creature uses abilities reminiscent/named after four Elder Dragons and a “Mordremoth” – specifically, it’s skills are as follows:

*Imprisonment Crystal (Branded crystal)
*Summoning Undead Tendril (Risen Tendril)
*Summoning Risen Asura (self-explanatory)
*Teeth of Primordus (Dragon’s Tooth-esque skill – a fiery rock spike from the sky)
*Teeth of Jormag (a mixture of ice and rock spikes from the ground)
*Teeth of Mordremoth (a row of earth spikes)

The first three are used in every path, while the first three are used only in 2 paths each in a very specific manner (more on this later).

Now, of the three paths, you fight a major legendary boss before the third time fighting Subject Alpha – these foes are Evolved Destroyer, Evolved Husk, and Bjarl the Rampager (an icebrood).

The Evolved Destroyer uses a skill “Tooth of Primordus” – and in the path that leads to it, Subject Alpha does not use Teeth of Primordus.
Bjarl the Rampager uses the Teeth of Jormag skill – and in that path, Subject Alpha does not use it.
The Evolved Husk, as far as I know (I didn’t think of checking) does not use a Mordremoth skill, however during that path Subject Alpha does not use Teeth of Mordremoth.

Seeing the connection yet? Let’s continue.

Nightmare Court’s influence (and not)
The Evolved Husk is, to put it simply, a powerful Summoned Husk – giant plant creatures seen only with the Nightmare Court outside CoE. Along with the Evolved Husk, there are Summoned Husks, Burning Husks, Nightmare Hounds, and Volatile Blossoms in this portion of CoE (similarly, outside CoE in same corner of the Infinity Coil Reactor, at the PoI Zone Green, there are Volatile Blossoms again) – all of which are found in relation to the Nightmare Court outside CoE. This fact has led quite a few folks to further their thoughts of “Pale Tree=Elder Dragon/dragon champion” – I’d like to state here and now, I do not believe this is so, and I feel I can almost disprove this notion. Here is why:

Firstly, on the Husks:
During the meta event in Wychmire Swamp, aptly named The Battle for Wychmire Swamp, the meta event begins with a Warden, Gamarien, who states “I’m scouting Wychmire Swamp for Nightmare Court activity, though I fear an even darker force is at work. I worry these summoned husks are harbingers of a greater foe.” And while there are two Nightmare Courtiers met during the first event of the chain, they indeed hold no other influence over the meta. This meta focuses on fighting “Blighted Husks” and “Blighted Grubs” ending with a battle with a giant jungle wurm (fun fact: jungle wurms are also called Nightmare Vines in Twilight Arbor, this combined with their appears implies they’re plants, not wurms).

This indicates that there’s a second source of these Husks other than Nightmare Court.

On Nightmare Hounds specifically, there is mention in the Town of Cathal in Caledon Forest (marked by a waypoint) that “It’s more than just their heart that is tainted by nightmare. Their very bodies shift into something darker and more malevolent.” when asked about trying to heal the Nightmare Court’s Thorn Hounds.

As things stand, this is all evidence that would state the Nightmare Court at the very least is tied to this Mordremoth. And I’d agree, but not go so far as to say the Pale Tree. Because there are things unrelated to the sylvari who are corrupted by what I’ll dub the “Blighted” (as that’s the naming system given in the Wychmire Swamp meta).

In Ogham Wilds of Caledon Forest, there is an event where Nightmare Courtiers are attempting to corrupt some Mosshearts – and they may succeed, if so we’re tasked in killing them. The thing to note is that these Mosshearts hold the same appearance as the Nightmare Tree fought in Twilight Arbor explorable, though much smaller and mobile. One thing to note is that while sylvan hounds (aka thorn/nightmare hounds) coincide with sylvari, the treants (mosshearts, oakhearts, pinesouls, and willowhearts) do not – they predate sylvari. Yet they can be corrupted in the same manner.

(more in next post)

The Dream of Dreams vs. the Nightmare
By lore, the very origin of the nightmare comes from the Dream of Dreams. To use The Movement of the World’s wording:
“But the Dream of Dreams also contains nightmares—hidden whispers behind the voices of their fellow Sylvari. They do not understand what it means—but the Sylvari have yet to experience much of the world around them.”

From what I remember – and unfortunately I’m not certain of the source – the first sylvari to fall to nightmare was Faolain (though it was Cadyern who created the Nightmare Court later). This occured in Orr when Faolain and Caithe saw the horrors there, and when Caithe turned away from it (the nightmare) Faolain went towards it. Though to me this doesn’t make as much sense in of itself – but this does tell a striking simility to Jora and Svanir, if one were to replace Jora with Caithe, Svanir with Faolain, and Drakkar with the nightmare.

Make of it what you will. I make of it as the nightmare originating from an Elder Dragon – thus the Elder Dragon is corrupting through the Dream of Dreams. (I doubt there’s going to be much disagreement on this).

Mordremoth’s corruption
Given all of the examples above, this shows the corruption method of Mordremoth (I’ll just be using this as the otherwiseu named Sixth Elder Dragon). With some rare exceptions, these “Blighted” are all plants. These exceptions being the few grubs seen in the Wychmire Swamp meta (and possibly those “Corrupted Grub”s found in Ogham Wilds near the Mosshearts mentioned above), jungle wurms, and the Nightmare Court’s spiders.

Now on the spiders, this may simply be a case of the NC taming them like any run of the mill ranger. And that’s my personal supicion.

And on the jungle wurms – as mentioned before, the same exact model is called a vine – indicating these “wurms” are in fact plants. Their models would concur with this. The question comes in their eggs as there’s a heart in Metrica Province dealing with Jungle Wurm Eggs. My only guess would be that these are a peculiar kind of plant.

This would indicate that with the rare exception of creatures tied greatly with plantlife, Mordremoth only corrupts plants. Just as Primordus only twists rock and lava, and Zhaitan’s minions are all undead, and Jormag corrupts mentally and by promising power, Mordremoth has his own peculiar corrupting methods.

What’s interesting to note is that the Nightmare Court hold a similar fanaticism for the nightmare as Elder Dragon minions. Though with a twist of sadism mixed in.

The issue of sylvari being immune to corruption
There’s a perplexity in all of this, however, and that’s the Nightmare Court themselves. Sylvari are immune to all Elder Dragons’ corruption – or at least they are to Jormag’s, Zhaitan’s, Primordus’ (obviously), and Kralkatorrik’s corruption. They simply die instead of being corrupted (in Jormag and Kralkatorrik’s case, as Zhaitan and Primordus doesn’t corrupt living beings – just dead ones and none respectively). Thus, this makes little sense why the Nightmare Court would be minions of Mordremoth. One would think any sylvari Mordremoth tries to corrupt would die.

But there are a few possibilities with this:

Firstly, this immunity may be physical immunity only, not mental. As one may note, Nightmare Courtiers can very easily pass as normal sylvari by appearance alone. Some of the generic models are darker toned, but the unique ones are just as bright as anyone else – this was likely done so that NC NPCs can be easily picked out (similar to how it’s easy to spot a Son of Svanir or Flame Legion charr – all of which have peculiar dying appearances, e.g., many Flame Legion NPCs which aren’t glowing with fire are usually white stripped orange furred). If the immunity is only physical, then a corruption that is solely and purely mental would work around it – counter-argument is Jormag’s corruption is mental – counter-counter-argument is that icebrood still are, well, made of ice eventually.

Second possibility, and most likely, is that the Nightmare Courtiers are not being corrupted – instead, they’re spreading it. Similar to the Sons of Svanir – they are not corrupted by Jormag, but influenced by him and nonetheless are capable of spreading his corruption despite not being made of ice. Counter-argument could be that channeling corruption still corrupts, just slower; counter-counter-argument would be that since each Elder Dragon corrupts differently, this may not be the case for Mordremoth.

Third possibility is as an NPC in the game (forget where) believes – the other Elder Dragons don’t know enough of sylvari physiology to corrupt them, but in this case Mordremoth, having a connection to the Dream of Dreams, does.

(more in next post)

Side note:
The main reason why I don’t affiliate the Pale Tree with this all is threefold:
1. Malyck shows no signs of being like the Nightmare Court which, by definition of the Pale Tree being a dragon champion turned good like the all-too-common hypothesis claims, would be the “natural sylvari.”
2. While I believe the Dream of Dreams is being used by Mordremoth to spread his corruption, the White Stag proves that the Dream of Dreams is not unique to sylvari, and Malyck proves that not all sylvari are tied to the Dream of Dreams.
3. There are too many things not tied to the Pale Tree being corrupted (spiders, wurms, treants, grubs).

Very interesting research; reading about the ED theories is my favorite part of Lore.

10/10!

I actually like this theory and it actually makes sense unlike the Pale Tree being a dragon champion. I always thought the nightmare court seemed more corrupted rather than a choice.

oh your theory is filled with so much logic

@Konig Des Todes

What do you think about the Pale Tree once being a Champion like Glint? I’m still confused on the Dream and the Nightmare. Are they two parallels or does the nightmare happen after?

Hunter.6950:

@Konig Des Todes

What do you think about the Pale Tree once being a Champion like Glint? I’m still confused on the Dream and the Nightmare. Are they two parallels or does the nightmare happen after?

He clearly states he does not believe the pale tree to be a former minion an elder dragon

catqeer.1954:

He clearly states he does not believe the pale tree to be a former minion an elder dragon

IM SO SORRY! I am truly sorry! It seems I skimmed bits and pieces, or must have missed it in the post, once again I apologize. I didn’t know it was such a big deal. So sorry I rustled your jimmies.

Excellent write-up and theory, Konig. I’m also quite convinced that the “nightmare” in the Dream of Dreams is also the influence of the 6th Elder Dragon, possibly one that spreads through the earth and is uptaken by plants through their roots (which explains why they are usually the first to be corrupted). Animals can, in turn, eat these plants and take the Blight into themselves, becoming corrupted versions of their normal selves.

What remains unanswered is what “force” Mordramoth (is it Mordramoth or Mordremoth?) represents. Each of the other Elder Dragons represents a kind of primordial force or element, such as fire, ice, crystal/earth and death. Thus far Blighted creatures do not seem to indicate any kind of common theme apart from simply being “corrupted”.

However, if the Elder Dragons were inspired by the Great Old Ones from Call of Cthulhu, as ANet mentioned in their artbook, then Mordramoth may represent an unnatural form of life similar to Shub-Niggurath. In the Cthulhu mythos, creatures afflicted by Shub-Niggurath or her minions usually experience tremendous and fecund growth, but the offspring always prove to be hideously mutated or twisted in some fashion. Mordramoth’s domain may be “life”, but it is a parasitic, infectious form of life that feeds upon existing creatures instead of growing on its own.

Very cool.. Interesting to note that “Mordre” is a french verb whose latin root is mord?re and means “to bite” Definitely makes sense for the name of a dragon.

Excellent and well thought-out as always Konig

Personally I still favour the idea that the Nightmare was a part, or at least a potential part, of the Dream from the start. Rather than see it as a corruption, I see it as a part of sylvari that they don’t acknowledge – that darkness in every thinking being which individuals occasionally succumb to. Sylvari, being young, wouldn’t have come to terms with the complexity of their sentience yet. But that said, dragon corruption does also make perfect sense (I guess I just prefer the idea that we all have the potential for darkness in us).

‘Mordremoth’ as a blight dragon who corrupts plants and plant-like beings makes sense, and fills a niche that I don’t think any other dragon occupies. ‘Blight’ as a word makes me think of ‘corrupted’ plant life automatically. The Nightmare Court make it interesting because without a greater understanding of the Sixth it would be hard for us to tell what’s Nightmare and what’s dragon at this stage. If the Nightmare Court fills a niche similar to the Sons of Svanir as you suggest, connected to the dragon and its corruption but also serving a political ideological purpose among the sylvari – which I think makes sense – the physical and irreversible nature of the Nightmare could be Mordramoth’s influence. It did always seem much more than a worldview.

At any rate, I will look forward to seeing what’s done with this and I really enjoy the hint-dropping in the content we have. Good work analysing Konig!

Umm i just found some cold hard facts that the pale tree cannot possibly be the elder dragon.

Ronan the human soldier planted the seed which then became the pale tree sometime around 1180 AE whilst it says that the dragons previous cycle of awakening was something like 11,000 years ago.

I don’t know if people have a found a loophole in this or what. Please tell me.

I think Mordremoth isn’t controlling The Nightmare Court, only the nightmares which said court tries to spread(and bring to the physical world) in order to free the Pale Tree of human and centaur corruption(not knowing that they’re infecting the Pale Tree with Elder Dragon corruption due to thinking that the Nightmare is tied to reality not the Elder Dragon Mordremoth).

Sithaco.4673:

Umm i just found some cold hard facts that the pale tree cannot possibly be the elder dragon.

Ronan the human soldier planted the seed which then became the pale tree sometime around 1180 AE whilst it says that the dragons previous cycle of awakening was something like 11,000 years ago.

I don’t know if people have a found a loophole in this or what. Please tell me.

The Pale Tree cannot possibly be one of the Elder Dragons. Some people have suggested that the Pale Tree COULD be the champion of the 6th dragon (which we’re now calling Mordremoth) but Konig has presented some pretty compelling evidence above that this is not the case.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The Evolved Husk, as far as I know (I didn’t think of checking) does not use a Mordremoth skill, however during that path Subject Alpha does not use Teeth of Mordremoth.

Seeing the connection yet? Let’s continue.

I do not know if the skill is called Mordremoth’s Teeth, but he does use small earth spikes during the encounter.

How about the sixth is just dead and the left-over words here and there are just red herrings just in case they need anther dragon if the game is still popular in 10 years?

That’s my opinion. We’ve got 1 line about a sixth dragon and this Mordremoth may or may not be him. Neither source confirms him as alive, rather one specifically mentions him as being defeated.

I posted something similar a few weeks ago in the sylvari forums. You’ve added more evidence than what I had, but in particular what I found interesting was the Nightmare Spiders.

We see the Nightmare Court forcing a spider and a fern hound to beat each other and tear each other apart in order to turn them to the Nightmare. One of the NPCs even comments on it and says that they find that in particular to be their favorite part of the process. I don’t think that the spiders are simply trained specifically because we see the Nightmare Court turning spiders (creatures that are decidedly not plants) into Nightmare Spiders in the same way they convert everything else.

I’m not sure if Mordremoth is the name of this dragon or the name of something else (and I’m not going to touch that yet). However I do agree with the notion that the Nightmare Court are spreading a dragon’s corruption in some way. Whether or not you agree with me that the Nightmare Court are in fact corrupted sylvari is a different matter and for a different topic.

Edit: I forgot to mention, the NPC I was talking about with the spider was in Caledon Forest. It’s in the corner where you disguise yourself as a member of the Nightmare Court and do some recon.

marnick.4305:

How about the sixth is just dead and the left-over words here and there are just red herrings just in case they need anther dragon if the game is still popular in 10 years?

That’s my opinion. We’ve got 1 line about a sixth dragon and this Mordremoth may or may not be him. Neither source confirms him as alive, rather one specifically mentions him as being defeated.

In Guild Wars 1, they mentioned Elona quite a bit in the Crystal Desert but no where else. Elonian Keys and Elonian Chests dotted the desert, and the ghosts of Turai Ossa and his followers who failed to ascend led you through your journey.

Elona turned out to be a playable region later in the game’s life. Nightfall was released in 2006, almost two years after Prophecies came out.

In Guild Wars 1, they mentioned a mysterious continent called Cantha more than once. In Kryta, we met two groups of odd NPCs from a foreign land who were at odds with one another, the Kurzicks and the Luxons. The tight-lipped Xunlai dotted Tyria, offering their services and promising the safe transfer of goods between any location on the map.

Cantha turned out to be a playable region early in the game’s life, with Factions being released in early 2006, almost a year after the game’s launch.

In Guild Wars 1, we heard stories from the dwarves of odd creatures living beneath the surface of the mountains, and of strange creatures living in the mountains far to the north. We heard from the humans and charr of the lands north of Ascalon, and of the lost continent of Orr. The White Mantle and Shining Blade told us stories of the Mursaat and of the depths of the jungle from whence they came.

All of this (save Orr) showed up in Eye of the North.

In Factions, we learned from the Luxons of other ancient humans that sailed the seas with them. We learned of their lives before the sea became petrified. These turned out to be the Mursaat, who we faced in Nightfall.

War in Kryta was foreshadowed by the aftermath of both Prophecies and Eye of the North, sure, but there was a little town called Fisherman’s Haven. In here a royalist guard is seeking for a way to overthrow the White Mantle. He discovers a young woman named Salma living at the Temple of the Ages. This quest was available years before the War in Kryta even began to kick off in 2010.

The list keeps going on and on. None of the things mentioned above were anything more than tidbits hinted at by various NPCs. ArenaNet loves this kind of stuff. They love being able to have an NPC do nothing more but add a little bit of background or flair to something, only to turn around and have it mean something more.

I would not ignore anything that any NPC or quest tells you. Everything is important. Everything has a purpose. Everything.

Crossposted from Guru:

One thought that comes to mind while discussing Mordy…

Apart from the apparent vector of corruption (and I’m inclined to agree with the theory that he corrupts things closely tied to the earth, not plants specifically) what distinguishes Mordy from the other dragons?

The other dragons are known to be awake. Four, we know. The Deep Sea Dragon we haven’t had any direct contact with, but we have a pretty good idea that there’s something forcing various races out of the Deeps. Mordremoth, however, as far as we know, is still sleeping… so perhaps this is why he’s making his mark on the dream world more than the physical one.

When it comes to the question of how the Nightmare Court serves Mordremoth, I suspect it might be similar to what Snaff did to Kralkatorrik. Snaff inserted his mind into the dragon’s and then became everything the dragon wasn’t, everything the dragon couldn’t be… and if the dragon couldn’t have that itself, it was determined to extinguish the annoying thing that reminds it of what it itself could never have or understand. If Mordremoth is touching or otherwise perceiving the Dream, it might similarly want to either destroy the Dream or make the Dream like itself… and the latter is exactly what the Nightmare Court is seeking to do.

In fact, thinking along these lines, what if that is actually the overall purpose of the Dream? It’s what Snaff did to Kralkatorrik on a larger scale, imprisoning Mordremoth’s mind within a Realm of Serenity that prevents him from awakening. If that’s the case, then it would give Mordremoth a very clear motivation for wanting to corrupt the Dream – if he can bring the Dream under his control and make it like he is, that might be the key to the lock that prevents him from awakening. Which would, in turn, imply that the Pale Tree has become his jailor.

If so, that would suggest that the sylvari are right – their purpose truly is to fight the Elder Dragons. Or, at least, a specific one.

draxynnic.3719:

Crossposted from Guru:

One thought that comes to mind while discussing Mordy…

Apart from the apparent vector of corruption (and I’m inclined to agree with the theory that he corrupts things closely tied to the earth, not plants specifically) what distinguishes Mordy from the other dragons?

The other dragons are known to be awake. Four, we know. The Deep Sea Dragon we haven’t had any direct contact with, but we have a pretty good idea that there’s something forcing various races out of the Deeps. Mordremoth, however, as far as we know, is still sleeping… so perhaps this is why he’s making his mark on the dream world more than the physical one.

When it comes to the question of how the Nightmare Court serves Mordremoth, I suspect it might be similar to what Snaff did to Kralkatorrik. Snaff inserted his mind into the dragon’s and then became everything the dragon wasn’t, everything the dragon couldn’t be… and if the dragon couldn’t have that itself, it was determined to extinguish the annoying thing that reminds it of what it itself could never have or understand. If Mordremoth is touching or otherwise perceiving the Dream, it might similarly want to either destroy the Dream or make the Dream like itself… and the latter is exactly what the Nightmare Court is seeking to do.

In fact, thinking along these lines, what if that is actually the overall purpose of the Dream? It’s what Snaff did to Kralkatorrik on a larger scale, imprisoning Mordremoth’s mind within a Realm of Serenity that prevents him from awakening. If that’s the case, then it would give Mordremoth a very clear motivation for wanting to corrupt the Dream – if he can bring the Dream under his control and make it like he is, that might be the key to the lock that prevents him from awakening. Which would, in turn, imply that the Pale Tree has become his jailor.

If so, that would suggest that the sylvari are right – their purpose truly is to fight the Elder Dragons. Or, at least, a specific one.

Very compelling theory. Not sure yet if I’ll subscribe to it but it makes a kitten strong case for itself.

Kerithlan.1659:

I would not ignore anything that any NPC or quest tells you. Everything is important. Everything has a purpose. Everything.

First off, let me tell you I knew all these hints since I played GW1 since day 1, no offense but the glaring errors in your post suggest you didn’t play before Factions. Cantha stood out like kitten balls and the Elonian mirrors were a huge red herring. I even remember this one quest that hinted a Utopia which DID NOT become an expansion. No need to belittle me on knowledge of the first game.
However, and let me be clear here, you’re cherry picking the hints that fit your idea that everything has a purpose. How about the sister staff to the Scepter of Orr? How about Livia picking it up? How about the Scarab Plague and the Twin Queens? How about the lonely vigil and weapon X? None of these things ever had a purpose, probably they never will.
Beyond that, you made more errors. Ghostly Hero being Turai was a serious retcon and Xunlai was never more than a banking agency. Luxon and Kurzick settlements were only added a few weeks before the release of Factions. As you may realize, none of these mattered until AFTER they mattered. The hints for EotN were also completely retconned since EotN was only designed after Utopia was scrapped and EotN had to be fit into existing lore.

To me, the bottomline being that Arena.net intentionally adds stuff that doesn’t matter to provoke discussions like this one. A world only starts to live when players make irrelevant stuff relevant in their imagination Besides, whatever an NPC tells you could be an outright lie or a fabricated myth passed over generations. Nothing matters until it matters.

I played since launch, thanks though. Would you kindly point out the errors in my post for me (as I am 100% positive that they don’t exist)?

I never said that Xunlai was anything more than a banking agency. I said that they guaranteed safe transportation of your stored goods (which surprise, is what they did). I never said that the Luxon and Kurzick settlements weren’t added close to Factions’ launch. I said that they existed pre-Factions, which is factual.

I wasn’t trying to belittle you but yeah sure interpret my post that way if you want to, it’s cool bro. God kitten warzone in here at all times.

@ Hunter
The Dream of Dreams (often shortened to “the Dream”) is a place – I believe it to be part of the Mists, personally, but that’s another matter – the nightmare is the darker aspects of the Dream.

@ Zaxares
The corruption seeping through the earth is an interesting concept and would explain why wurms and grubs are among the three animals to be corrupted, since they’re burrowers. The issue I see would be how does that relate to Mordremoth’s corruption – as based on how the Nightmare Court twists the hounds and other sylvari, he corrupts via inflicting pain.

And its Mordremoth – the former thread on Mordramoth apparently typo’d the name. I would argue that Mordremoth is “plant” – except for the grubs, all of the beasts related to the Nightmare Court appear rather planty (the spiders have a more green and thorn-like appearance than most other spiders, should they too be corrupted). Thus, the six Elder Dragons’ elements would be (in order of awakening with Mordremoth last): Fire, Ice, Rot (I say rot and not undeath due to Explorer Hekja during Estate of Decay in which she is rotten and decayed mere minutes after death, even in EoD the newly risen… risen are instantly greyed and decayed in appearance), Water, Crystal, and Plant.

As for the inspiration from Cthulhu mythos, I think that’s more in relation to how the Elder Dragons (Elder Gods? :P) are beyond mortal understanding – one may see and relate them to things, like how one can relate Cthulhu to being a man with wings and an octopus for a head, but they still cannot be understood or fully comprehended by mortal minds as they are currently.

@ Curuniel
The issue with that thinking would be that the sylvari do recognize there is darkness/evil in most if not every being – as the kodan puts it, the sylvari recognize the balance of light and dark in all things (“much to their credit”). They very well do recognize that even good people have darker sides, but those tainted by the nightmare are “forever changed” – a constant theme in the Shield of the Moon storyline. Just as those who are corrupted by Elder Dragons, once one turns to the nightmare there is no turning back. There are also darker sylvari who have not fallen to the nightmare (take Callach, for instance, who is more than willing to harm others for his own benefits and then flee when he’s in trouble without taking the consequences of his actions – but he is not of the Nightmare).

@ Mickey Frogeater
That’s an equal possibility I can see, which is more or less the seconds possibility I mentioned.

@ Avalarion
I thought he did but it has been a while since I did the path so I wasn’t sure. I just recalled for certain he had a brambles PBAoE attack, spawned thorn roots, and had those kitten golems there. Good to know he does use an earth-spike attack – probably is Teeth of Mordremoth.

@ marnick
That is entirely possible, but I don’t think so. Anet has stated quite a few times that they don’t like closing doors. And having Mordremoth dead off the bat kind of does that. However, as proven by Zhaitan, even when dead an Elder Dragon’s influence/corruption remains and might still be able to be spread.

(more in next post)

@ draxynnic
(copied from Guru2)
That point kind of goes back to my old persona of the Elder Dragons thread. They all seem to seek different things, and based off of EoD I’m inclined that Kralkatorrik is seeking to obtain everything (which can be either viewed as greed or desire of perfection) – the other Elder Dragons seem to want other things (Zhaitan’s risen often speak of immortality; Jormag’s minions speak of power; Primordus’ minions never speak, but only kill and as their names imply, destroy).

Given the little we know of Mordremoth, I’m inclined to think he’s wanting to spread pain and torture. Not only because it’s how he seems to corrupt, but because that’s the true mentality of the Nightmare Court, and because the most obvious show of his power is through the condition poison (poison is highly common in Twilight Arbor, in Zone Green, and in Experimental Lab Green in CoE). Poison inflicts long lasting pain until death (if death comes as not all poisons kill), and can metaphorically be said to choke life itself. This is what I think Mordremoth wants – e.g. he’s the personification of sadism.

@ marnick
But Utopia was going to be one. And would have. Though I don’t recall any quest – and I’ve done them all – that was an obvious reference to Utopia.

To your examples: Livia and the Scepter of Orr will likely hold a future purpose, given everything we’ve been told about the situation – I find it quite odd that Anet didn’t bring it up in the initial release, tbh. The Scarab Plague and the Twin Queens is historical – as important as, say, the first Guild War (or hell, all three). They were designed to give backstory and produce possible expositions. But mostly just to make the world feel more like a world – that it existed before you turned the program on.

(I don’t think the Lonely Vigil and the Ancient Weapon counts since that was part of a scrapped activity – it’s like saying that Arachnia being mentioned in the gw.dat holds no purpose)

Everything does have a purpose for being added – more or less – but not everything is a hint to future content.

And the Ghostly Hero being Turai was not a retcon to my memory – mind you, I didn’t play before Factions, but I did before Nightfall, and he always mentioned Palawa Joko and that his name was Turai, and this was in fact brought up by Jeff Grubb about how he had to spin an entire tale that was Turai v. Joko from a single sentence. Jaiju Tai in Lion’s Arch, as far as I know, always existed and talked about Cantha too. And the lore about the Great Destroyer and Great Dwarf weren’t retconned either – since they were not changed. I think you’re mistaking the term “retcon” with the concept of changing directions. Retcon implies old things that were public being outright altered or removed, while what you’re talking about is (possibly) the concept that were intended for things simply hinted upon in the past being changed (if such concepts ever existed! As per above, there was no backstory behind Turai and Joko other than Joko was an undead lord that threatened Elona and was defeated by Turai).

@ Kerithan
Pretty much half of the things on EotN that you talked about – there was no mention in-game, ever, of creatures in the depths or the mountains to the far north – we only knew charr came from the north and the tale of the Great Destroyer and Great Dwarf (and of course the Tarnished Coast’s existence). You’re also somewhat wrong on the hints of sea-farers from Factions – it was from Factions but rather An Empire Divided (from the Factions prima guide) and it wasn’t about Mursaat but Margonites. Also, while we’re told the mursaat came from a jungle it’s never said or explained, not even EotN, where that jungle is. It may be the Maguuma, it may be Woodland Cascades, or neither. Though technically that’s just where they were when Saul found them, as they weren’t in Tyria for thousands of years according to Arah explorable.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

@ Kerithan
Pretty much half of the things on EotN that you talked about – there was no mention in-game, ever, of creatures in the depths or the mountains to the far north – we only knew charr came from the north and the tale of the Great Destroyer and Great Dwarf (and of course the Tarnished Coast’s existence). You’re also somewhat wrong on the hints of sea-farers from Factions – it was from Factions but rather An Empire Divided (from the Factions prima guide) and it wasn’t about Mursaat but Margonites. Also, while we’re told the mursaat came from a jungle it’s never said or explained, not even EotN, where that jungle is. It may be the Maguuma, it may be Woodland Cascades, or neither. Though technically that’s just where they were when Saul found them, as they weren’t in Tyria for thousands of years according to Arah explorable.

Margonites was what I meant, that was a simple typo.

I never said anything about things living beneath the mountains to the far north. I said that various NPCs mentioned scary things underground. And the Dwarves do mention the Stone Summit living further north (and while in the Northern Shiverpeaks, further south) than the regions that we discover, and that Iron Horse Mine isn’t where they suddenly stop. It’s just where the player character’s travels take them. I don’t see how any of this is incorrect.

I don’t understand how stating that the Mursaat made first contact with Saul in the depths of the jungle is an incorrect statement. It emphasized the fact that the various woods, jungles and unexplored regions of Tyria are filled with odd and magical entities, and when we visited the Tarnished Coast in Eye of the North we encountered exactly that.

I respect you as someone who knows your stuff and as one of the wiki’s top contributors, but aren’t you being a little bit pedantic/particular here? If you’re just looking to find anything at all wrong then hey yeah you caught a typo, great, but otherwise what’s the point of saying “you’re right, but I’m going to nitpick and pretend you’re not right”?

@Konig Regarding the nature of the Nightmare Court: I agree that it is most likely that the members of the NC aren’t being corrupted but are instead choosing to spread corruption (similar to the Sons of Svanir). When speaking to the Pale Tree as a Sylvari, she indicates that the members of NC have made a misguided moral choice, not that they have been compelled to become minions against their will. When prompting the Pale Tree on the nature of the NC she responds, “Once beloved to me, as you are, these poor misguided children have—through free will—taken a dark path. Their disdain for Ventari’s words leads them astray and does harm to the Dream.”

Kerithlan.1659:

I never said anything about things living beneath the mountains to the far north. I said that various NPCs mentioned scary things underground. And the Dwarves do mention the Stone Summit living further north (and while in the Northern Shiverpeaks, further south) than the regions that we discover, and that Iron Horse Mine isn’t where they suddenly stop. It’s just where the player character’s travels take them. I don’t see how any of this is incorrect.

I don’t understand how stating that the Mursaat made first contact with Saul in the depths of the jungle is an incorrect statement. It emphasized the fact that the various woods, jungles and unexplored regions of Tyria are filled with odd and magical entities, and when we visited the Tarnished Coast in Eye of the North we encountered exactly that.

I respect you as someone who knows your stuff and as one of the wiki’s top contributors, but aren’t you being a little bit pedantic/particular here? If you’re just looking to find anything at all wrong then hey yeah you caught a typo, great, but otherwise what’s the point of saying “you’re right, but I’m going to nitpick and pretend you’re not right”?

You seem to misinterpret/misread me.

I said depths or far north. No indication is ever made that the Shiverpeaks continued much further north off of the original Tyria gw1 map. Or anything about what was underground besides dredge. Similarly, “And the Dwarves do mention the Stone Summit living further north (and while in the Northern Shiverpeaks, further south)” while true does not talk about the areas north of the Shiverpeaks – you contradict yourself by saying “while in the Northern Shiverpeaks, further south” – such comments I, at the very least, never recall seeing. But that’s not even relevant to your original post, in which you stated “we heard stories from the dwarves […] of strange creatures living in the mountains far to the north” which isn’t talking about the dwarves living in the far north, nor was I disputing such a non-existent claim.

On the mursaat, you claimed that _"The White Mantle and Shining Blade told us stories of the Mursaat and of the depths of the jungle from whence they came.

All of this (save Orr) showed up in Eye of the North."_ – that is to say, that the depths of the jungle where the mursaat “came from” showed up in Eye of the North. That did not occur (despite popular belief, there is no conclusive evidence to indicate who were the originators of the ruins in the Tarnished Coast).

I was not being pedantic or particular, either, I was merely answering your question: “Would you kindly point out the errors in my post for me (as I am 100% positive that they don’t exist)?” I simply pointed out the errors you made, as you requested it be done by marnick. That is to say, I responded to your question directed at marnick to help avoid the increased hostilities you two were forming so that this thread would not derail more. I had no intention of being hostile nor was I.

@Errant: However, if the Pale Tree doesn’t know of Mordremoth’s existence, then she may be wrong in her claim.

I have a question if this is an earth based elder dragon. Do you think there is any connection to the rise of the Modniir centaur tribe rise to power? I mean Ulgoth himself wields some really powerful earth magic. Even their War Beasts seem to be conversions of maybe Rock Dogs to an entirely different level of existence. Creating conflict that would even go against all of Ventari’s teachings that would end up passing onto the sylvari. Would it be difficult for an elder dragon to take something like Ventari’s teachings from the dream and twist it’s ideology on the creatures of origin (centaur)? Basically showing the flaw in Ventari’s and the Pale Tree’s philosophy about peace before conflict.

I know it may be total coincidence especially given the fact that the flame legion of course has no connection to Primordus. We did end up seeing what happen to that connection when the flame legion was looking for a new god to worship in EotN (via the destroyers). It did not end well.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

@Errant: However, if the Pale Tree doesn’t know of Mordremoth’s existence, then she may be wrong in her claim.

Do we have any evidence pointing one way or another? I suppose it’s logical that the Pale Tree would have TOLD someone if she believed an ED (awake or in the process of awakening) was responsible for the Nightmare Court. So the fact that she hasn’t would indicate that she’s not aware of any ED influence (assuming it exists) in the Nightmare/Dream.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And the Ghostly Hero being Turai was not a retcon to my memory – mind you, I didn’t play before Factions, but I did before Nightfall, and he always mentioned Palawa Joko and that his name was Turai, and this was in fact brought up by Jeff Grubb about how he had to spin an entire tale that was Turai v. Joko from a single sentence. Jaiju Tai in Lion’s Arch, as far as I know, always existed and talked about Cantha too. And the lore about the Great Destroyer and Great Dwarf weren’t retconned either – since they were not changed. I think you’re mistaking the term “retcon” with the concept of changing directions. Retcon implies old things that were public being outright altered or removed, while what you’re talking about is (possibly) the concept that were intended for things simply hinted upon in the past being changed (if such concepts ever existed! As per above, there was no backstory behind Turai and Joko other than Joko was an undead lord that threatened Elona and was defeated by Turai).

I did play back then, and the Ghostly Hero was always Turai Ossa, although his model is labelled “Ghostly Hero” instead (probably because once you go on to attempting to claim the Hall of Heroes, you’d have multiple Ghostly Heroes and clearly they can’t all be the same one). There are times in the Crystal desert where his name is mentioned, and those haven’t been changed.

@Errant: I don’t think there’s anything that really indicates the Pale Tree knowing what’s behind the nightmare. She outright states even she doesn’t understand the true nature of the Dream of Dreams, so it’s not unlikely she doesn’t understand the true nature of the nightmare either.

@Drax: He’s still labeled Ghostly Hero in the Crystal Desert (all 3 missions and all 5 outposts he’s in).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

You seem to misinterpret/misread me.

I said depths or far north. No indication is ever made that the Shiverpeaks continued much further north off of the original Tyria gw1 map. Or anything about what was underground besides dredge. Similarly, “And the Dwarves do mention the Stone Summit living further north (and while in the Northern Shiverpeaks, further south)” while true does not talk about the areas north of the Shiverpeaks – you contradict yourself by saying “while in the Northern Shiverpeaks, further south” – such comments I, at the very least, never recall seeing. But that’s not even relevant to your original post, in which you stated “we heard stories from the dwarves […] of strange creatures living in the mountains far to the north” which isn’t talking about the dwarves living in the far north, nor was I disputing such a non-existent claim.

On the mursaat, you claimed that _"The White Mantle and Shining Blade told us stories of the Mursaat and of the depths of the jungle from whence they came.

All of this (save Orr) showed up in Eye of the North."_ – that is to say, that the depths of the jungle where the mursaat “came from” showed up in Eye of the North. That did not occur (despite popular belief, there is no conclusive evidence to indicate who were the originators of the ruins in the Tarnished Coast).

I was not being pedantic or particular, either, I was merely answering your question: “Would you kindly point out the errors in my post for me (as I am 100% positive that they don’t exist)?” I simply pointed out the errors you made, as you requested it be done by marnick. That is to say, I responded to your question directed at marnick to help avoid the increased hostilities you two were forming so that this thread would not derail more. I had no intention of being hostile nor was I.

- We did see the Mursaat in Eye of the North. One Mursaat. The reason we didn’t see more is because we all but committed genocide at the end of Prophecies when the Door of Komalie opened. We never bump into the Mursaat city that Saul D’Alessio speaks of in Eye of the North, but we do continue their lore. This is something that I said. We bump into a Mursaat in the jungle. You seem to be the one that’s misinterpreting me, as I was referring to the story of the Mursaat, their ties to the jungle, and the jungles of Tyria being odd and weird.

- The dwarves do talk about the Stone Summit having a stranglehold on the mountains. They talk about the Stone Summit enslaving all manner of beasts and creatures. They mention that Stone Summit territory has been growing in all directions. That’s the entire focus of the story after Nolani Academy. That’s why the players have to pick a specific path through the mountains. There’s no contradiction here.

Look we’re going to go back and forth on this and it’s pointless. I’m going to stop myself here. It’s just sad to see you acting this way after seeing you be so upstanding elsewhere.

@Konig – Do you think that might indicate Mordremoth could be responsible for the forming of the Maguuma Wastes?

Maybe the dragon is the corrupted aspect of nature it’s self.

All of the sylvari are close to nature , the pale tree sylvari are the “good” part of nature. They spread life, want to protect, heal and other “good” things we associate with nature.

The one sylvari of the other pale tree is more like nature as it, cruel and unforgiving one minute and friendly and forgiving the next. forgot his name but he acts like caithe.

The nightmare court are nature when she is feeling like being a kitten cruel, unforgiving, remorseless and any other “bad” aspect.

Maybe the reason plants are corrupted is because they are closer to nature and the dragon it’s self.

The dragon being “evil” of course is going to not want the “good” aspect and want the world to be more Darwinian. Like a cat playing with a mouse it just wants to have “fun”

@Kerinth: 1) I never said we didn’t see mursaat. Please read my posts clearly. I said, despite what it seemed you were claiming, we never saw “from whence they (mursaat) came” in Eye of the North – big difference. 2) That bit on the Stone Summit is not the same as the Stone Summit have bases in the far north (they in fact did not until Sorrow’s Furnace was destroyed and they lost the war, forced into the far north as exile). Your claim was not this either, btw – neither the first nor the second, and was, again, not what I was disputing. Your changing your argument each post.

@Warrior of Asgard: I answered this over on Guru2, so a copy/paste:
As to the Maguuma Wastes, I’m more inclined to blame Primordus for that. Or, alternatively, it’s due to the weakening of the bloodstone there. Keep in mind that the higher altitude parts of the Maguuma Jungle on a whole was already arid – just as northwestern Brisban Wildlands is. The Maguuma was a jungle only in the canyons and lower parts – where water congregated, obviously, but if that water were to dry up… you get wastes. Now take note that the Maguuma Water was magical, and suspected to be so due to the bloodstone’s presence. Therefore, if the bloodstone weakened, then so too would the water’s properties – and thus even if it remains, there’d be less vegitation due to less healing from the water. The issue with this theory comes with: what was the Maguuma Jungle area before the bloodstone landed there? Was it still a jungle, or was it a wasteland?

@Mike: Issue is that the standard sylvari are not all goody-toe shoes, even those not affected by the nightmare. Callach and Caithe are two prime examples – Malyck is a third. They are, as the kodan puts it, close to balance. It’s only the Nightmare Court which are otherwise.

And this aspect of them is hardly because they’re close to nature. One can argue that everyone has degrees of being good and being evil – this is not an unusual thing. So your argument seems kind of oddly placed to me.

Taking much of the information that you post on here it makes me think of a few things. Firstly, in the CoE dungeon, as you mentioned, Mordremoth’s skill is based in earth, not plantlife, which is an interesting thing. I say this because if Mordremoth is the 6th mentioned ED and is related to the 6th zone in the Infinity Coil then he does have a very strong tie in with plants and nature. This leads me to think that perhaps Mordremoth (as the 6th ED) is a corruption of the soil/earth. Now I know that Primordius is thought a lot to be a corruption of the earth/fire, but you have to think that the “earth” that we talk about a lot has multiple facets. I mean in Primordius’ case he seems much more like the corruption of the raw power of earth and fire located in the depths of Tyria. Whereas earth has another connotation with soil and fertility. I prefer to believe that perhaps Mordremoth and the poison are the effects of a corruption of the soil, thus causing a corruption in the creatures living in and around it. I mean in the case of all of the animals that can be corrupted it seems like in their weakest form, as eggs/larva, they are usually concealed in the earth, caves or in the soil, in this form I would think it would be relatively simple to corrupt and transform these creatures. I know it is not a perfect theory, but it leads one to think that perhaps there is a connection between the Maguuma Wastes and the 6th ED.

One last thing to think about. The Maguuma wastes used to be much more jungle like before GW1. You can see this through many locations having dried up and dead plant-life very similar to the plant-life located in the valleys. I say this because perhaps the Bloodstone isn’t what is keeping nature alive in the area, but perhaps the bloodstone is what is draining the area of life in the first place, perhaps because of the Mursaat tampering with it (through the soul batteries). This is of course speculation, but it brings a different thought to the whole situation. This has always been my preferred theory, over Primordius, although I would also accept the theory on Mordremoth to be my close second. Personally the area just doesn’t hold enough volcanic looking situations to speak Primordius to me.

On the whole “different earth” thing – destroyers are said in EN to have “skin as black and as hard as obsidian”, and crystal is also a form of earth, so it wouldn’t be surprise me if there’s metal (Primordus), gem (Kralkatorrik), and soil (Mordremoth) in regards to Elder Dragons being tied to earth – but with the exception of Kralkatorrik, they’re not solely tied to earth, but rather it’s an addendum to their element.

@Konig Des Todes

Alright thanks, that makes a bit more sense. Never thought of it that way.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Poison inflicts long lasting pain until death (if death comes as not all poisons kill), and can metaphorically be said to choke life itself. This is what I think Mordremoth wants – e.g. he’s the personification of sadism.

I think the poison idea fits well – or ‘blight’ meaning basically a poison or disease of plants – or potentially a ‘choking vine’ kind of thing? Like a plant that kills other plants for advantage? Maybe that’s just another nice metaphor. At any rate, if we consider it corruption of/through plants it works.

Primordus, to me, is rock, specifically – as opposed to soil or, I suppose, crystal. Rock in the hard sense is quite different to soil in the loose, growing sense. Failing which, the rock associations of Primordus might just come from a volcanic element: black rock, fire, lava, all things which we see when something forces itself up from under the earth’s crust. Obsidian is also volcanic in origin. This all leaves room for topsoil, loam, fertile earth or dirt to come under Mordremoth’s domain.

Well Kralky’s a bit different in any instance, because he doesn’t necessarily manipulate the crystal (assuming that Mordremoth reacts much like Primordius and works directly through his substance) but instead he creates these crystals out of his corruption of living material. Anyways, whatever happens, I get the feeling that either in the Maguuma Wastes or perhaps the woodland cascades we’ll learn more about Mordremoth, if he’s not somehow tied to the Echovald (just thinking of prominent jungle/forest).

I don’t think Mordremoth is tied to the Echovald. My deduction for this comes from jotun history and Inquest research – both giving our six Elder Dragons. The jotun to our knowledge never left continental Tyria and, for that matter, the Shiverpeak Mountains – in turn, this means that their knowledge of Elder Dragons is limited to their surroundings (and potentially those of the four other races). Similarly, the Inquest have no known means to leave continental Tyria, and their only recently gotten their hands on a DSD minion and Zone Blue is under construction, thus showing/implying it is the Elder Dragon or minion they know the least of. From this I would argue that the DSD is the furthest away from continental Tyria of the six (and that there may be more unknown to the ancient jotun or modern Inquest outside contact with continental Tyria).

Combine this with Mordremoth’s (potential, given this is all theoretical) influence over the sylvari and other places in Caledon Forest, I’m inclined to argue Mordremoth is somewhere in the Maguuma Jungle – be it the Maguuma Wastes, Tarnished Coast, or Magus Falls.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

@Drax: He’s still labeled Ghostly Hero in the Crystal Desert (all 3 missions and all 5 outposts he’s in).

That’s what I said. However, he names himself as Turai Ossa and the defeater of Joko in Amnoon Oasis, and that dialogue was present from release.

Bottom line is that it wasn’t a retcon, but building off something that was already there.

I never quite understood why the “pale tree is an elder dragon” theory was popular, since it sounded so ridiculous… To me it was like saying Queen Jennah is Zhaitan’s undead mesmer agent.

I don’t think Nightmare Court are knowingly Mordremoth’s minions, I think it’s able to manipulate plants to do what it wants. NC are probably minding their own sadistic business and Mordremoth saw an opportunity to corrupt them even more. Maybe once the ED is finally revealed, Nightmare court go nuts and join his ranks… or something.

Kerithlan.1659:

I played since launch, thanks though. Would you kindly point out the errors in my post for me (as I am 100% positive that they don’t exist)?

You refer to the luxon settlement as if it was a thing starting from day 1. It wasn’t, it was first implemented nearly a year later. You refer to the Mursaat as being in Elona and coming back in EotN. They weren’t, you completely mixed up Mursaat and Margonites, completely distinct beings who WERE NOT in EotN. The few mursaat in EotN were a fanserving retcon as they were actually implied to be extinct after the Titan quests. You made several big anachronous errors in the WiK storyline. You also seem to mix up Xunlai and Zaishen. Xunlai never implied any expansions, and none were based around the Xunlai. Zaishen were only there for PVP and don’t really play a big role in lore.

You also don’t seem to understand how adding Elona was a retcon to existing content, not a forward hint starting from Prophecies. No one actually expected Elona until the elonian mirror quest. The Ghostly Hero was never implied to be Turai Ossa until he was affirmed so in the Nightfall booklets. You would have known all this if you played during release.

Stories of odd creatures and a far north don’t imply anything either. That’s a given. The bladeridge mountains do imply that “something” is on the other side. You may as well predict that a coin always ends up either heads or tail. The Great Destroyer in EotN, again, was a retcon and a very bad one to boot. They needed something in a short time and the Great Destroyer was there for the serving.

None of these things ever implied an add on. The Salma quest was added a month after release btw, you should remember, it was the first new PVE content. I’m very happy WiK and WoC came, but all those tidbits were never important until AFTER they became important. Because of that, nothing matters until it matters. Also, your errors are blatant and I don’t believe you were there on day 1 because several of your statements are blatantly wrong concerning the game in release state.

I’m closing the discussion here for two reasons: I don’t want to get infracted for saying the truth and I don’t like pointing out how other people make themselves look like a fool. There is a wiki, before you make any claims, please check your facts. Most of the things you mention are retcons, and were never red herrings.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

@ marnick
That is entirely possible, but I don’t think so. Anet has stated quite a few times that they don’t like closing doors. And having Mordremoth dead off the bat kind of does that. However, as proven by Zhaitan, even when dead an Elder Dragon’s influence/corruption remains and might still be able to be spread.

That’s all I’m saying. Leave a hundred open doors, and close a few and open a dozen others when you make more content. A.net is pretty good at retconning these open doors, but there’s plenty that were never addressed and will never be addressed. That’s why I don’t put too much stock in 1 skill with the name Mordremoth. Could be anything or could be nothing at all. I surely wouldn’t directly link it to an implied dead 6th dragon, but that’s just because there’s a hundred other open plotlines.

The only thing I read out of this is: There may or may not be more dragons when the game is still popular in 5 years. To me, that sounds like a good position to have a sustainable game.

Maybe Mordremoth is simply the real name of the Deep Sea Dragon…

The problem with that is, everything we know about the DSD seems to point to it having more effect on water than everything else, but the skill that subject Alpha uses is an earth based skill…..

draxynnic.3719:

That’s what I said. However, he names himself as Turai Ossa and the defeater of Joko in Amnoon Oasis, and that dialogue was present from release.

Misread your post as saying that it was Ghostly Hero but is now Turai Ossa.

Ibbuli.4027:

I never quite understood why the “pale tree is an elder dragon” theory was popular, since it sounded so ridiculous… To me it was like saying Queen Jennah is Zhaitan’s undead mesmer agent.

Pfft, Jennah is clearly corrupted by Kralkatorrik, the corruption happened when she tried looking in his mind.

marnick.4305:

The few mursaat in EotN were a fanserving retcon as they were actually implied to be extinct after the Titan quests.
[…]
You also don’t seem to understand how adding Elona was a retcon to existing content, not a forward hint starting from Prophecies. […] The Ghostly Hero was never implied to be Turai Ossa until he was affirmed so in the Nightfall booklets.
[…]
The Great Destroyer in EotN, again, was a retcon and a very bad one to boot.
[…]
Most of the things you mention are retcons, and were never red herrings.

Again, those aren’t retcons. Retcons is when old content is changed. Turai always referred to himself as Turai Ossa; while it was implied the mursaat were extinct, it was never explicitly stated either – just that Khilbron had the titans hunting down the remaining mursaat. Continuations and elaborations of old lines is not retcons.

marnick.4305:

A.net is pretty good at retconning these open doors, but there’s plenty that were never addressed and will never be addressed. […] I surely wouldn’t directly link it to an implied dead 6th dragon, but that’s just because there’s a hundred other open plotlines.

Firstly, see my above reasonings for why these are not retcons. Stop misusing the word please.

Secondly, nothing implies the sixth Elder Dragon is dead and in fact given the Inquest its implied its still alive, but not yet awake. There’s a big difference between “dead” and “sleeping.”

Furby.2693:

Maybe Mordremoth is simply the real name of the Deep Sea Dragon…

There’s nothing related to water or the DSD in the dungeon, however. So there’s nothing relating the skill name of Mordremoth to the DSD.

marnick.4305:

Kerithlan.1659:

You also don’t seem to understand how adding Elona was a retcon to existing content, not a forward hint starting from Prophecies. No one actually expected Elona until the elonian mirror quest. The Ghostly Hero was never implied to be Turai Ossa until he was affirmed so in the Nightfall booklets. You would have known all this if you played during release.

Ghostly Hero

“My name was Turai Ossa. I was the Champion of Elona, the protector and leader of my people. At the Battle of Jahai, I single-handedly defeated Palawa Joko, the scourge of Vabbi. It was I who led the Elonians to the Crystal Desert.”

This line was in there since release. If you didn’t notice it, you must have been one of the people who sped through content and didn’t look at the dialogue.

Changing the Losaru to look like Elonian centaurs was a retcon. Turai Ossa’s story wasn’t further planned out at the time, but it was a dangling plot thread that they expanded on later.

According to the broadest definition on TVTropes then yes, it is a retcon… but so is everything that happened prior to 1072AE that wasn’t in the Prophecies Manuscripts, including the entire histories of Cantha and Elona and the whole thing with the Elder Dragons. The common interpretation of a retcon, though, is actively changing something that was previously known to be the case – such as all the things in the Prophecies Manuscripts that turned out to be wrong with GW2. Even those are relatively soft retcons, though – they have the explanation that the Manuscripts were an in-universe document and thus fallible, rather than changing something that was known to be true.

In the case of Turai Ossa’s history – while they hadn’t laid out the entire history of Elona when they put in that line, it’s pretty obvious that they put it there with the knowledge that they might expand on it in a future campaign. And if GW1 had kept going with campaign releases, we would have seen many more such dangling threads used.