Guild Wars 2

Illushia.3721:

That 6th area could just be remnants from when the Inquest were studying the Sylvari. Wanted to keep them in a ‘home-like’ environment or something, maybe?

Which brings up another possibility. The thread was started under the assumption that each area represents an ED. What if they are simply areas designed to hold and study beings of that particular elemental/magical force, and only relate to the Elder Dragons in that the areas of study and the power of a particular ED happen to overlap?

Berethos.4526:

Illushia.3721:

That 6th area could just be remnants from when the Inquest were studying the Sylvari. Wanted to keep them in a ‘home-like’ environment or something, maybe?

Which brings up another possibility. The thread was started under the assumption that each area represents an ED. What if they are simply areas designed to hold and study beings of that particular elemental/magical force, and only relate to the Elder Dragons in that the areas of study and the power of a particular ED happen to overlap?

That’s why I feel like rampant speculation with little evidence or guidance is so detrimental rather than expansive. So many erroneous conclusions can be drawn, and people will treat them like they’re the gospel set down by ANet themselves.

Sure, we -can- get some good theories out of it, but often it just explodes into arguments about who is more right or not.

I can see no one is willing to answer my last question at least. What ever the case may be, everyone discussing this should know it is only an idea based off some intriguing finds within game, that this may or may not end up being true, but it is plausible. This discussion is not to ‘make people believe’ its more so to ask, what if and how? I am still waiting on someone who has done the infinity coil to give an answer about the 6 points and some lore buff to explain the creation of the world and the elder dragons. That could potentially clear up a lot of the fog here.

While the OP may claim its confirmed, the conversation in this thread has easily and quickly shifted. Is it the title and OP that makes you disagree with everything here? I just don’t understand why your so against the idea, it has merit.

I don’t think there -is- any lore that deals with the creation of the world, or the Elder Dragons.

And I’m so against this idea because I -don’t- think it has any merit.

Illushia.3721:

All the ED lieutenants are powered by the dragons themselves, and are essentially extensions of the dragon themselves. I’m not sure they could even go rogue, and if they did, I imagine the Elder Dragon could just pull the plug. “WHOOPS NO MORE POWER.”

Then explain Glint?

RAWR.4273:

Then explain Glint?

According to the Arah dungeon the Forgotten used a magic spell to free glint from Kralky’s control.

but I don’t think the EDs can just zap power away form their champions.

RAWR.4273:

Illushia.3721:

All the ED lieutenants are powered by the dragons themselves, and are essentially extensions of the dragon themselves. I’m not sure they could even go rogue, and if they did, I imagine the Elder Dragon could just pull the plug. “WHOOPS NO MORE POWER.”

Then explain Glint?

Read the thread. I had already explained(When someone else mentioned Glint) that I forgot about her. Or him? Idk.

Sajuuk Khar.1509:

RAWR.4273:

Then explain Glint?

According to the Arah dungeon the Forgotten used a magic spell to free glint from Kralky’s control.

but I don’t think the EDs can just zap power away form their champions.

Usually if you can give someone power you can also take it.

I agree that we don’t know one way or another though.

If, by some chance the writers of GW2 lost all their senses and made the Pale Tree in any way related to a dragon, then they’re going to have to explain that whole “there is another Pale Tree out there somewhere creating Sylvari that lack a dream” thing that comes up in one branch of the Sylvari personal story. The cave that the Pale Tree seed was found it was full of seeds. They’d have to all be farking dragons for this theory to be true. The Pale Tree is a one of a race of slow growing sentient trees that procreate by making plant minions to tend to them.

I suspect, that the Pale Tree is exactly what she’s presented as in game: A mysterious being of mysterious origin and that over in Bellevue Ree Soesbee is giggling her face off at this whole thread.

If she even admitted that she read this, much less found it dumb/silly/ridiculous, I’d about die of… either happiness or surprise that Devs pay that much attention to their fans.

>_>

<_<

Hey, Ree?

I could use a job? ;D

(The above is a silly joke, don’t smack me with a banhammer plz.)

Trock Bronze.9625:

-The sylvari have a natural desire, born of the dream, to defeat the dragons. The nightmare court however provides a different view, just like every race has those who do not see eye to eye on the subject.

I think you’re overstating how many Sylvari are being told/asked by the dream to defeat the dragons. I believe it’s stated during the personal story that the only other Sylvari to actually dream of defeating a/the dragon(s?), other than the player, is Caithe. There are also plenty of Sylvari that seem to be content to just settle in The Grove or live in other various cities without making much, if any, effort in defending Tyria.

Also, there is at least a third faction of Sylvari that we know about who have decided to abandon the pale tree / dream and do their own thing (I believe they’re called The Silent? I can’t remember).

While it’s true that apparently only Caithe has had a Dream of defeating a dragon, the Sylvari widely accept that their purpose as a race is to defeat the Elder Dragons as a whole. The timing of their awakening and the fact that they’re immune to Dragon corruption seem to cement this in their minds.

Not every Sylvari is called to fight, though. Some are just menders or tradesmen.

The Soundless didn’t feel at home with others in their minds, or sharing the empathy that normal Sylvari do with each other, so they left to be alone to life on a little island in Caledon Forest. But they’re a far, far minority.

Fair enough.

One thing I haven’t seen or skimmed over too quickly… not all sylvari come from the Pale Tree. (See “Where Life Goes” personal story sylvari 11-20 arc.)

If anything, I believe there might be a dragon tied to the cave from which all those seeds, one of which created the Pale Tree, was located. That would make more sense than the Pale Tree = dragon, at least to me.

Ravious.4269:

One thing I haven’t seen or skimmed over too quickly… not all sylvari come from the Pale Tree. (See “Where Life Goes” personal story sylvari 11-20 arc.)

If anything, I believe there might be a dragon tied to the cave from which all those seeds, one of which created the Pale Tree, was located. That would make more sense than the Pale Tree = dragon, at least to me.

Or they could just be seeds. /shrug

But we have gone over… or at least it’s been mentioned, that not everyone comes from the same tree. We don’t know how many trees there are or might be though.

Adding in a bunch of things to this theory.

First off, yes, the Crucible has 6 “sides”, one of which is Plant. This confirms the 6th Dragon is related to plantlife.

The seed Ronan found was in a cave with many other seeds. It’s very likely those seeds could be the actual Dragon, Champions, or any number of other things. It was heavily guarded though, and being led by Ventari’s teachings/Ronans desire for Peace was not part of the original plan at all.

All the Elder Dragons corrupt the land to their image. Go to Brisbain/Caledon/Asuran Starter Zone, it’s full of new plantlife in the image of the Grove. The Grove itself is a self grown city entirely built by the Pale Tree. There are mentions that within the next few years the Pale Tree will create life in the desert regions of Maguuma as well. It is in fact “corrupting” the land, just corrupting it with life.

The Sylvari are birthed and connected by a psychic link. They are given “Wyld Hunts” by the Dream. Almost all the other corrupted races are also birthed off the dead of other races, and are connected psychically, and given quests by the Elder Dragon themselves.

The Nightmare Court isn’t controlled by any dragons, and Sylvari are almost 100% resistant to corruption, this is mentioned several times at the end of the Personal Story. Instead, the Nightmare Court has just thrown off the shackles of Ventari’s Teachings/cut themselves off from the Dream, implying Sylvari at base are actually quite aggressive/violent/psychopathic. The Soundless and Malyck also show these qualities, if you sit around the Soundless Isle long enough, you’ll hear them mention they need to rely on Ventari’s Teachings more, and all of Malycks cutscenes show him to be a very killhappy man.

Also, remember, ANet has said repetedly that the Elder Dragons don’t really have any plan, they are just forces of nature. Fire is a force of nature, as is death, ice, water, and sandstorms/desert. But so is life and growth. The idea of a 6th Dragon that’s not evil isn’t out of the question. The dragons could be part of a cycle, clear the world of life, then the 6th comes out and rebuilds everything, and this time thanks to Ronan/Ventari it’s actually fighting the other dragons due to the teachings it gave them.

I don’t think the Pale Tree is a dragon however. As she says, she can’t control the Dream, she just interprets it, and functions as the mother to the Sylvari. I’m guessing the 6th Dragon is the Dream, or lives within the Dream.

First off, yes, the Crucible has 6 “sides”, one of which is Plant. This confirms the 6th Dragon is related to plantlife.

This ‘confirms’ nothing. There is nothing there that confirms anything. It shows Inquest experiments that may or may not relate to the Dragons. I think people are reading far too much into this.

The seed Ronan found was in a cave with many other seeds. It’s very likely those seeds could be the actual Dragon, Champions, or any number of other things. It was heavily guarded though, and being led by Ventari’s teachings/Ronans desire for Peace was not part of the original plan at all.

Or they could all be seeds. You know, like plants. And what plan? We know nothing of any plan anyone had for anything.

They planted a seed. That’s what you do with seeds. You plant them. Ventari left the tablet there so someone could find it and use it. The Pale Tree finding the tablet is about the only thing that went along with any ‘plan’ and even that wasn’t what Ventari intended for it.

All the Elder Dragons corrupt the land to their image. Go to Brisbain/Caledon/Asuran Starter Zone, it’s full of new plantlife in the image of the Grove. The Grove itself is a self grown city entirely built by the Pale Tree. There are mentions that within the next few years the Pale Tree will create life in the desert regions of Maguuma as well. It is in fact “corrupting” the land, just corrupting it with life.

It looks just like plants, to me. The only things that are different are the Sylvari buildings- which are grown by the Sylvari. Not the Pale Tree. The Grove? Grown by the Sylvari. Not the Pale Tree. They even have Sylvari called ‘Shapers’ whose whole purpose is to grow and design buildings in order to fufill needs and purposes that are not currently being met. The Pale Tree has nothing to do with any of that, and the Sylvari themselves have everything to do with it.

The SYLVARI, not the Pale Tree, are the ones spreading and in your words ‘corrupting’ the land around them. The Pale Tree is not doing any of this.

The Sylvari are birthed and connected by a psychic link. They are given “Wyld Hunts” by the Dream. Almost all the other corrupted races are also birthed off the dead of other races, and are connected psychically, and given quests by the Elder Dragon themselves.

The Sylvari are grown from plants. They are not ‘corrupted’ dead. In fact, the only corrupted dead are the Risen. Branded are not dead. They’re just changed.

And in fact, most Dragon minions are not connected psychically. Only the most powerful ones are, like lieutenants or ones with very special/important minions that the Dragon may have a vested interest in.

In fact, most of the Branded seem to be doing pretty much what they were doing before, with no interference from Kralkatorrik at all, with the only difference being they treat EVERYTHING as an enemy rather than certain things.

The Nightmare Court isn’t controlled by any dragons, and Sylvari are almost 100% resistant to corruption, this is mentioned several times at the end of the Personal Story. Instead, the Nightmare Court has just thrown off the shackles of Ventari’s Teachings/cut themselves off from the Dream, implying Sylvari at base are actually quite aggressive/violent/psychopathic. The Soundless and Malyck also show these qualities, if you sit around the Soundless Isle long enough, you’ll hear them mention they need to rely on Ventari’s Teachings more, and all of Malycks cutscenes show him to be a very killhappy man.

They’re resistant to DRAGON corruption. They can be poisoned(A type of corruption), burned(Which can be said to be a type of corruption), or corrupted by the Nightmare.

The Sylvari at base are peaceful, nature-loving creatures. The Nightmare is a force of corruption that’s seeking to grow itself from the relatively small footprint that it had before.

If the Sylvari are at base violent/psychopathic/whatever, then the vast majority of them would be Nightmare Court and a small number would be following the Pale Tree. Not the other way around. That’s what ‘at base’ means.

The Nightmare Court has -not- cut themselves off from the Dream. In fact, they want to change it from what it is now- a peaceful, rest-ful, relaxing place, to form it in THEIR image. They even admit that they want to change it from what it is -supposed- to be, to better fit in with what they think it should be.

Soundless want to live by the Ventari’s Teachings. They just want to be alone in their heads, rather than connected empathetically to everyone around them. They don’t like feeling each other’s sadness/anger/etc. Which, by the way, the empathy is a uniquely Sylvari trait. It doesn’t show up in any other races, dragon-corrupted or otherwise.

Also, remember, ANet has said repetedly that the Elder Dragons don’t really have any plan, they are just forces of nature. Fire is a force of nature, as is death, ice, water, and sandstorms/desert. But so is life and growth. The idea of a 6th Dragon that’s not evil isn’t out of the question. The dragons could be part of a cycle, clear the world of life, then the 6th comes out and rebuilds everything, and this time thanks to Ronan/Ventari it’s actually fighting the other dragons due to the teachings it gave them.

They have not said they -are- forces of nature. I don’t know how many times I have to explain this. They said they’re like forces of nature inasmuch as they don’t have a plan, they just destroy things, eat things, and then leave the world to pick up the mess afterward. They’re barely sentient. They’re little more than very powerful animals with some sort of vague idea of “Everything else bad, more of me good, make more of me”.

You’re implying the Pale Tree is a dragon, or works for a dragon, despite nearly all the evidence we have about the Pale Tree and the Sylvari pointing very clearly otherwise.

I don’t think the Pale Tree is a dragon however. As she says, she can’t control the Dream, she just interprets it, and functions as the mother to the Sylvari. I’m guessing the 6th Dragon is the Dream, or lives within the Dream.

Or the Dream could be… I dunno, some kind of collective Dream for the Sylvari since they all come from the same place?

It may just be a facet of the Gods. Or the Mists. Or… randomly coalesced magic.

That’s the problem with throwing around these theories. You’re grasping for straws when there aren’t any, and trying to pull things out of thin air.

I could sit here and make a million theories with as little backing as we have for this nonsense.

tjafaas.3726:

Sorry to thwart your nice theory, but it seems you have forgotten all knowledge from GW1. The seed of the Pale Tree was planted by Ronan and Ventari. The latter was able to live longer, and therefore had more time to create the “tablets”, which now are known only as coming from Ventari, though Ronan participated in its creation, in a way.

Moreover, according to the novel “Edge of Destiny” story, there was no such thing as a “Pale Tree” before. The dragons were there long ago before anyone else, feeded themselves to the brim on existing life until there was so little left that they went satisfied into a deep slumber.
The source of this information is very reliable. It comes from Glint himself. He was a former servant of Kralkatorrik.

As to the a sixth symbol, it is quite possible that there is another dragon yet to be revealed. Tyria is after all only one continent, and the world includes so far Cantha and Elona.
My guess is that, eventually, communication with Cantha will become possible, as will it be with Elona. The only small thing to do is kill an Elder Dragon … but that’s what heroes are for

Glint is a She, not a He*

The only thing I would add to this is if it turned out that the Pale Tree was connected to an Elder Dragon it would give new meaning to the Ventari teaching ‘Everything has a right to grow.’

There’s a rather decent read about this here → https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/races/sylvari/Future-Sylvari-Lore-possible-spoilery-stuff/first#post92354 <- on the sylvari forums I would give it a good read as I myself don’t want to repeat any of it xD

Thanks for the link Kow! I love this part of the lore and want to add a few notes...

Keep in mind that the natural state of the Pale Tree and other trees like her can not possibly be evil or consumptive.

So it’s pretty safe to conclude from that that the "true nature" and motives of the Pale Tree and the Sylvari, void Ventari’s influence, would have been pretty much like any other type of life: live, grow, reproduce, and find what small pleasures you can while you’re here.

But then, what of the similarities between the Pale Tree and the Elder Dragons, or at least the supposed similarities that the Inquest were researching? (copy/paste from my other post TheKow linked)

It is not currently known if the dragons’ power itself comes from the dragons or whether they are feeders on something else still.

Therefore it is totally possible that the Sylvari and the Pale tree are tapping into and/or manifesting from deep power currents of Tyria itself, power currents which the dragons are merely borrowing and twisting for their own purposes. It would be these underlying power currents which the Pale Tree can tap into in the form of the Dream. The Dream is not from her, she merely taps in and tends it as best she can.

In that case, rather than the Sylvari coming from Elder Dragons or the Pale Tree being an Elder Dragon, they are both coming from something else which is perhaps a more neutral force: whatever it is which is the source of the Dream. As the Elder Dragons attempt to twist it to their own purposes, the Pale Tree attempts to preserve it.

This also ties in nicely with the human gods themselves, since they also could have merely been beings who previously tapped into these same underlying power-currents. As the Dragons rose and began exerting their influence others who were previously using this power have waned.

/end sylvari durmand priory mode

So it’s pretty safe to conclude from that that the “true nature” and motives of the Pale Tree and the Sylvari, void Ventari’s influence, would have been pretty much like any other type of life: live, grow, reproduce, and find what small pleasures you can while you’re here.
But then, what of the similarities between the Pale Tree and the Elder Dragons, or at least the supposed similarities that the Inquest were researching? (copy/paste from my other post TheKow linked)
It is not currently known if the dragons’ power itself comes from the dragons or whether they are feeders on something else still.

I just want to add, though it’s secondhand as I haven’t done the quest myself(yet!) that the player character either explains or can explain some part of Ventari’s teachings and he finds it to be acceptable or fairly parallel to his own(I’m not sure which, but the reaction is positive).

Not all dragon minions are corrupted. The minions of Primordus are the destroyers, and for all we know they are birthed in a simlair way to the sylvari. A quick note, the sylvari seed was planted around the same time that the Great Destroyer – a champion of Primordus – began to threaten Tyria. It was also around the same time that Primordus himself began to wake (at the end of Eye of the North). I believe there is also some kind of shared memory or mental link between many of the dragon minions, that’s also similair to the sylvari and the dream/nightmare.

But you can’t base an argument on something you assume. “Well we don’t know how the Destroyers are made, so then they’re probably made like Sylvari, so the Dragons are alike in this way.”

… What? It doesn’t work like that.

Also, Primordius may have ‘begun to awaken’ but had hadn’t yet. He was maybe stirring a little. It also seems like he’d be the dragon with the least interest in the Sylvari, as he’s still battling the Dwarves.

So yes, this is an assumption too, but he very likely hasn’t had anything to do with the surface world other than intermittent minion attacks.

And no, from what we know, the only minions who have mental links with the Elder Dragons are very important ones.

And no one else has empathy like the Sylvari do, that we currently know of.

To say the Pale Tree isn’t changing the land it’s the sylvari seems to be splitting hairs. The sylvari are the fruits of the Pale Tree, an extension of it. The sylvari influenced by the tablet (foreign to the Pale Tree or the source of the seeds) are acting with the ideals of the tablet, but we’ve seen examples of sylvari who aren’t influenced by the tablet and turn away from it’s teaching in the form of the Nightmare court. Look at the plants in their part of the world and even what they do to fern hounds and jungle spiders, I’d call that a form of corruption, not dissimilar to the dragons (to my knowledge we haven’t seen how Primordus might corrupt things despite him being the first dragon to awaken so it’s easily possible that not all dragons corrupt, at least not in the same way).

It’s not splitting hairs. The Sylvari act independently of the Pale Tree 99% of the time. They’re not an extension of the Pale Tree. They come from her, they’re born from her, that’s it.

That’s like saying I’m an extension of my parents even though I live several hundred miles away and never speak to them.

The Sylvari NOT from the Pale Tree(Or the ones from another Pale Tree, however you want to phrase it) fall somewhere along the line of Ventari’s tablet anyway, so I’m starting to think that Ventari’s tablet lining up with them is mostly coincidence, and only ended up giving the Sylvari a codified way of thinking that was already in line with their own natural disposition.

The plants in that part of the jungle are grown by the Sylvari and have nothing to do with the Pale Tree in the slightest. If anything we should be arguing that the Sylvari are evil dragon minions and the Pale Tree is fighting to keep them under control by guiding them to be good instead of rampaging across Tyria because they’re so obviously evil.

Fern Hounds are created much like the Sylvari. They’re plants. They’re not animals. So they aren’t corrupted anything. They’re born that way.

And that argument could maybe make sense if ANet hadn’t said that all dragons corrupt. So yes, all dragons corrupt things.

Zhaitan is made up of several undead dragons, why can’t the sixth dragon be made up of several trees or seeds? The most likely scenario for the sylvari, should they have any link at all, would be for the Pale Tree to be a champion of the sixth dragons that has been turned by the teachings of Ventari. That fits it with ArenaNet’s desire to make them the cliche knightly/noble race while also explaining their immunity as well as having the cool plot twist. It’s also possible the sylvari are scouts, gathering information on Tyria before the sixth dragon fully awakens. The “dream” is a really good way to build up knowledge for a war you’re about to wage. Maybe the Inquest are just researching sylvari immunity to dragon corruption in a research station researching the dragons? There is a deliberate link between the sylvari the the dragons via their immunity, that is something that ArenaNet has done for a reason. Personally I think the theory shows more forethought than most of the lore we’ve been getting. GW1 essentially summed up to “Abbadon did it!” and Glint was retconned as a dragon champion (let’s not forget she has a baby somewhere in the world, leaving the game open for the idea that offspring of a champion do not necessarily work for that champion’s dragon).

Sure. The dragon could be seeds and trees and whatever else. It could also be a bunch of bushes all fused together by roots. We don’t know. That doesn’t help either side of the ‘argument’ any.

Except that’s not very likely at all, because the Pale Tree was grown independently of the Dragons, and at a time that the Dragons weren’t active.

All of the Dragons’ lieutenants(Other than Glint) came after the dragons. Not before, like the Pale Tree did.

How does making the Pale Tree into a sixth dragon’s champion have anything to do with the Sylvari being the “Cliche Knight/noble race”, when they really aren’t. Being chivalrous in relationships and personal honor doesn’t turn your race into the “cliche knight/noble” race, especially when there’s much much more to being a knight or a noble than chivalry.

I don’t know how many times I have to repeat this. ANet making a playable race an agent of the bad guys is not a good idea, will never be a good idea, and would only wreck the game and it’s balance if it ever comes to pass. A game company is not going to shoot itself in the foot like that.

I do think it’s weird, of all the races in Tyria, the sylvari seem to be the least like all the others. For the most part, all other races seem to work similair to humans, born and raised normally over a period of time, learn everything on their own, equally threatened by dragon corruption. The sylvari, in many ways, have more in common with dragon minions than they do with the other races of Tyria.

Oh yes. Sentient plants that were born from a tree, learn through a dream, are empathetically connected to each other, hate the dragons, and are immune to anything the dragons try to do to them, are incredibly like the Elder Dragons’ minions.

That makes a whole lot of sense.

What says the Pale tree has to be the first one. As stated there is a lot of area not discovered or that has yet to be discovered.

Who says there aren’t Sylvari on different continents. Perhaps there are many pale trees there just seems to be one on Tyria (tho story says there are 2 possibly even more).

What if the Pale Tree is Mother Nature herself or all the good in the world and her offspring are destined to slay the Dragons and rid the world of evil?

I mean we can throw theory after theory but I’d personally rather wait for more expansion and find out that way.

Reevac.1748:

What says the Pale tree has to be the first one. As stated there is a lot of area not discovered or that has yet to be discovered.

Who says there aren’t Sylvari on different continents. Perhaps there are many pale trees there just seems to be one on Tyria (tho story says there are 2 possibly even more).

What if the Pale Tree is Mother Nature herself or all the good in the world and her offspring are destined to slay the Dragons and rid the world of evil?

I mean we can throw theory after theory but I’d personally rather wait for more expansion and find out that way.

If she’s not the first one, then the first one would have grown before even the Pale Tree, which is even farther before the Elder Dragons became active again.

There may be Sylvari on other continents. But we only know of 2 Trees at the moment.

If the Pale Tree were “Mother Nature itself” there very likely wouldn’t be two of them, especially if they don’t know each other.

=3

That’s why I’m arguing against this theory. It’s just… silly.

I do hope they elaborate more on the seeds that were found and the other tree. i mean after you find thats the end of the information given.

Perhaps the seed are influenced by those who plant them. If the are good then the tree born and Sylvari are inherently good. ( Tho that doesn’t explain the Nightmare Court very well)

I haven’t had time to read the books but if you have the info please let me know.

How does the Nightmare court come around? It is said Sylvari can’t be corrupted by the dragons? Is this 100% fact or just a theory?

I think they plan to, as the Sylvari you meet says they’re going back to their tree to report the news, start making sure they can defend it, and begin talks about helping the Pale Tree and the other Sylvari with the dragons.

The Nightmare Court was started by a secondborn Sylvari after another Sylvari was killed, and he grew jealous of the Firstborn and their connection with the Pale Tree.

Sylvari are absolutely immune to corruption by the Dragons. Where other races can be weakened and corrupted, Sylvari simply die.

I think a more plausible explanation for the origins of the Pale Tree is that its just a plant. A really cool sentient plant, but a plant nonetheless. We know she came from a seed, but we don’t know where the seed came from. We also know that when Sylvari die and are buried there’s a chance they will grow into a new tree.

For all we know there is a seed inside each and every Sylvari and the only reason this isn’t common knowledge is that we have respect for the dead and don’t leave the rotting corpse out to dry and see what’s left over when the flesh rots away. We also don’t go carving up live Sylvari to see what’s inside them, although it really wouldn’t surprise me if that was what the Inquest might have been up to in Mt Maelstrom. The Sylvari are new and resistant to the dragon’s corruptions. Even if they aren’t dragon minions themselves there is still plenty of reason to study them in the same location as the dragons.

Is it explicitly stated what the research was about? Why couldn’t the Inquest be studying ways to resist the dragon’s corruption themselves? They could have been researching the Sylvari’s resistances to try and produce some sort of protection for themselves. And if they thought they were onto it, they would need a lot of Sylvari and different types of dragon corruption to test it with.

Where did this idea even originate from..

Elder DRAGON
Pale TREE

Since when are trees considered to be dragons??

(also, the tree is immobile. it cannot fly around or breathe fire/ice/gas or anything for that matter … )

The Asura originally thought the Sylvari were just a new sort of plantlife, and snapped them up for study. When they realized that the Sylvari were a new type of sentient life, they immediately released them and apologized.

The Inquest, however, didn’t. My opinion is that the leafy part of the Eternity Coil or whatever is just a station where they were continuing their studies/dissection of captured Sylvari.

An Asura stated that Sylvari/the Pale Tree have a similar magical signature to the Elder Dragons.

And bam conspiracy theory.

Illushia.3721:

I don’t know how many times I have to repeat this. ANet making a playable race an agent of the bad guys is not a good idea, will never be a good idea, and would only wreck the game and it’s balance if it ever comes to pass. A game company is not going to shoot itself in the foot like that.

I don’t know how many times i got invalidate this but JUST cause they are revealed to be of dragons spawn would not make them a agent of the bad guys and would not instantly dub them evil or wreck the game yadda yadda.

“Oh noes the syvlari where made by dragons” “o well there not under the influence of the dragons and are good so whats it matter” “that’s right! Lets keep killing dragons with them cause hey there not evil there good like Glint!”

The Pale tree is simply a guardian/medium for sylvary to talk to the Real Tree and nothing more(like a human manifestation of the tree) they are not nature and there’s more then one tree stated there’s 4 known trees 3 are grown 1 is growing and a 5th Cave that contains the seeds them self and possibly even a small group of cave guardians.

It is Fact they cant be corrupted by a dragons touch(a trait only unique to dragons minions) the Nightmare is a form of self corruption from hatred,pain,etc(think jedi and sith starwars stuff).

As it stands there’s more Facts supporting the Elder dragon theory and this

Keep in mind also that while there may be magical signature similarities between Sylvari and the dragons, it is not currently known if the dragons’ power itself comes from the dragons or whether they are feeders on something else still.

Orr

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In the later story you learn that Orr’s corruption is not due to Zhaitan, though he is using that corruption as if it were his own power. Cleansing Orr is a separate matter from defeating/destroying Zhaitan.

Therefore it is totally possible that the Sylvari and the Pale tree are tapping into and/or manifesting from deep power currents of Tyria itself, power currents which the dragons are merely borrowing and twisting for their own purposes. It would be these underlying power currents which the Pale Tree can tap into in the form of the Dream. The Dream is not from her, she merely taps in and tends it as best she can.

In that case, rather than the Sylvari coming from Elder Dragons, the Elder Dragons could be seen as coming from the source of the Dream. As they attempt to twist it to their own purposes, the Pale Tree attempts to preserve it.

This also ties in nicely with the human gods themselves, since they also could have merely been beings who previously tapped into these same underlying power-currents. As the Dragons rose and began exerting their influence others who were previously using this power have waned.

/end sylvari durmand priory mode

Then any other theory.

I don’t know how many times i got invalidate this but JUST cause they are revealed to be of dragons spawn would not make them a agent of the bad guys and would not instantly dub them evil or wreck the game yadda yadda.

You weren’t paying attention to what I was disputing. I was talking to the guy suggesting the Pale Tree be a Champion of the Elder Dragons.

The Pale tree is simply a guardian/medium for sylvary to talk to the Real Tree and nothing more(like a human manifestation of the tree) they are not nature and there’s more then one tree stated there’s 4 known trees 3 are grown 1 is growing and a 5th Cave that contains the seeds them self and possibly even a small group of cave guardians.

The Pale Tree IS the ‘Real Tree’. The Pale Tree manifests herself as a Sylvari to talk to the other Sylvari. There’s no inbetween there.

I only know of one other Tree stated to have Sylvari growing from it.

It is Fact they cant be corrupted by a dragons touch(a trait only unique to dragons minions) the Nightmare is a form of self corruption from hatred,pain,etc(think jedi and sith starwars stuff).

It’s a uniquely Sylvari trait. Maybe the other Dragon’s minions aren’t worth turning, so they don’t. Maybe they’re so altered that corruption isn’t possible. They aren’t immune to it, otherwise they wouldn’t have turned in the first place.

And the Nightmare isn’t a form of self-corruption. It’s a force that actually exists. The Nightmare Court give themselves over to it and champion it.

There’s no facts supporting either theory, but the one you quoted makes more sense than the Pale Tree being a ‘purified’ champion or some nonsense. If the Ventari tablet had purified her then why are the other Sylvari(Who didn’t have a tablet) just like the other Sylvari?

There’s no answer for that. Ventari’s Tablet didn’t have anything to do with it.

you’re all wrong, The dragons are the Gods mortal forms, thats why tyria hasn’t heard from them since the dragons reappeared 6 dragons, 6 gods. coincidence?

Safari.3021:

you’re all wrong, The dragons are the Gods mortal forms, thats why tyria hasn’t heard from them since the dragons reappeared 6 dragons, 6 gods. coincidence?

5 Dragons. Jormag, Primordius, Zhaitan, Kralkatorrik, unnamed seadragon.

Humans still got responses from the 6 Gods until recently, when they finally went all but silent.

Grenth speaks through an Avatar, talking about how he wants back a follower/Priest/something stolen by Zhaitan.

You can’t steal from yourself. Try again.

Are you the lore police or something Illushia?

moonslightv.6704:

Are you the lore police or something Illushia?

No. I just don’t like things that don’t make sense.

Illushia.3721:

moonslightv.6704:

Are you the lore police or something Illushia?

No. I just don’t like things that don’t make sense.

Your discussing Lore in a game…Much isnt gonna make sense…..

Angelus.1042:

Illushia.3721:

moonslightv.6704:

Are you the lore police or something Illushia?

No. I just don’t like things that don’t make sense.

Your discussing Lore in a game…Much isnt gonna make sense…..

You can make sense of most things in a game’s lore. That’s why the lore works, and doesn’t feel disjointed and confusing.

Safari.3021:

you’re all wrong, The dragons are the Gods mortal forms, thats why tyria hasn’t heard from them since the dragons reappeared 6 dragons, 6 gods. coincidence?

You are wrong and i will tell you why. to began this firstly the once who are the human God are called travellers of the mist. and they are Dwayna, Balthazar, Melandru, Lyssa and Abaddon. Abaddon is dead so we will take him out. Grenth is half human and he is the son of Dwayna and a Human. Kormir is the only Goddess who was full human. the Dragons where on Tyria long before the Travellers arrival on Tyria.

Illushia.3721:

Safari.3021:

you’re all wrong, The dragons are the Gods mortal forms, thats why tyria hasn’t heard from them since the dragons reappeared 6 dragons, 6 gods. coincidence?

5 Dragons. Jormag, Primordius, Zhaitan, Kralkatorrik, unnamed seadragon.

Humans still got responses from the 6 Gods until recently, when they finally went all but silent.

Grenth speaks through an Avatar, talking about how he wants back a follower/Priest/something stolen by Zhaitan.

You can’t steal from yourself. Try again.

Illushia.3721@ don’t forget all the Gods talk true their Avatar. remember in GW1 before we went and face Adaddon we spoke to all the remain Gods Avatar. even when Kormir ascend we thought it was Kormir that was speaking to as but she said it was only her Avatar. No mortal can stand in the Gods present for long.

What? Of course mortals can stand in the gods’ presence, if the gods were around rather than (presumably) chilling out in the mists somewhere. The gods used to live right in among the mortals to no ill effects.

The biggest failing of the gods = dragons theory is that its bending itself over backwards trying to stretch. The very basis is that there are 6 of each, but we don’t know that. We know of only 5 dragons for sure and an undetermined number more that may be lurking in Cantha and Elona. The 6 dragons idea was itself a stretch, based on sketchy assumptions and no actual proof, so to build a whole new theory on top of that... not a good idea.

Acaelus Thorne.3862:

Safari.3021:

you’re all wrong, The dragons are the Gods mortal forms, thats why tyria hasn’t heard from them since the dragons reappeared 6 dragons, 6 gods. coincidence?

You are wrong and i will tell you why. to began this firstly the once who are the human God are called travellers of the mist. and they are Dwayna, Balthazar, Melandru, Lyssa and Abaddon. Abaddon is dead so we will take him out. Grenth is half human and he is the son of Dwayna and a Human. Kormir is the only Goddess who was full human. the Dragons where on Tyria long before the Travellers arrival on Tyria.

I never actually did that part of GW1. But my point was that Grenth was angry that Zhaitan stole from him. Why would one of the dragons be able to steal from a god if the god was a dragon?

Aside from that, the gods clearly think and reason and plan and all that.

The Dragons don’t. That enough to is discredit the Dragons = gods theory.

Illushia.3721:

Acaelus Thorne.3862:

Safari.3021:

you’re all wrong, The dragons are the Gods mortal forms, thats why tyria hasn’t heard from them since the dragons reappeared 6 dragons, 6 gods. coincidence?

You are wrong and i will tell you why. to began this firstly the once who are the human God are called travellers of the mist. and they are Dwayna, Balthazar, Melandru, Lyssa and Abaddon. Abaddon is dead so we will take him out. Grenth is half human and he is the son of Dwayna and a Human. Kormir is the only Goddess who was full human. the Dragons where on Tyria long before the Travellers arrival on Tyria.

I never actually did that part of GW1. But my point was that Grenth was angry that Zhaitan stole from him. Why would one of the dragons be able to steal from a god if the god was a dragon?

Aside from that, the gods clearly think and reason and plan and all that.

The Dragons don’t. That enough to is discredit the Dragons = gods theory.

I understand what you are say and i clearly respect you. i was just try to point out that, now of the God actually speak to the humans themselves, and like i said the dragons where on tyria long before the Gods arrival.

Illushia.3721:

Safari.3021:

you’re all wrong, The dragons are the Gods mortal forms, thats why tyria hasn’t heard from them since the dragons reappeared 6 dragons, 6 gods. coincidence?

5 Dragons. Jormag, Primordius, Zhaitan, Kralkatorrik, unnamed seadragon.

Humans still got responses from the 6 Gods until recently, when they finally went all but silent.

Grenth speaks through an Avatar, talking about how he wants back a follower/Priest/something stolen by Zhaitan.

You can’t steal from yourself. Try again.

Actually there is very strong evidence in game that says there are 6 dragons.

I dont however think the Gods and the Dragons are actually the same.

I know about that.

But as far as we know NOW, there’s 5. Maybe one of the six was killed. I dunno.

I can’t believe the concept of the Pale Tree being an Elder Dragon. And the comments saying that the Pale Tree tricked the sylvari – an unrelated race – that they’re her children? That’s just silliness at its max. It’s a known, in-lore-observable, fact that the sylvari and sylvan hounds come from the Pale Tree. Unlike Elder Dragons, the Pale Tree creates the sylvari – Elder Dragons corrupt. There’s a mighty big difference.

Everything about the Pale Tree is the very anticedent of the Elder Dragons. So maybe there’s some plant/earth-based Elder Dragon. Okay, very possible. Though I’d prefer a star/sky based Elder Dragon personally. But that’s like arguing Grenth is Zhaitan. They’re not the same as it’s a fact Grenth is younger than Zhaitan, having been around while Zhaitan was hibernating (just as the other gods were – so God=Dragon is definitely false).

It’s possible that the Six Gods and the Elder Dragons have related sources of energy – I hope that’s not the case as it just ruins who the Six are even more, and I don’t think it is or that evidence points to such (at least on a 1 to 1 scale), but it’s possible.

At best, in any god to dragon relation, it’s that the Six Gods tampered with Zhaitan’s magic – much like how the asura did with Primordus. You can start creating parallels between the powers between the gods, but you eventually falter. Primordus and Balthazar, the DSD and Abaddon (god of water prior to his fall), this supposed plant-based dragon and Melandru… but then it gets tricky. There is then no sky dragon, so it must be life for Dwayna, and the closest to that is Zhaitan, who fits more with Grenth and death. Jormag has mental corruption powers, but has ice, so in terms of how he corrupts he fits Lyssa more, but in what his element is he fits Grenth more. Then there’s Kralkatorrik, which some would argue – probably solely due to color schematics – that Kralkatorrik best fits Lyssa, though there’s nothing mesmeric about him at all. Which comes to another issue – there’s nothing monk-like about Zhaitan so he doesn’t fit Dwayna really. Thus you’re left with Dwayna without a dragon, and Grenth with one. Though if you go by original gods, then it’d be Dhuum in which case Jormag doesn’t fit (Dhuum’s never related to ice).

So then you have Dwayna being dragonless, and either Jormag or Kralkatorrik (depending on which you’d relate to Lyssa) being godless. And Dwayna doesn’t fit either. It just falls apart unless there’s a seventh god and seventh dragon.

So I would argue that the number 6 is likely just a favorite number on ArenaNet’s part, rather than some divine conspiracy (pun intended).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I can’t believe the concept of the Pale Tree being an Elder Dragon. And the comments saying that the Pale Tree tricked the sylvari – an unrelated race – that they’re her children? That’s just silliness at its max. It’s a known, in-lore-observable, fact that the sylvari and sylvan hounds come from the Pale Tree. Unlike Elder Dragons, the Pale Tree creates the sylvari – Elder Dragons corrupt. There’s a mighty big difference.

Everything about the Pale Tree is the very anticedent of the Elder Dragons. So maybe there’s some plant/earth-based Elder Dragon. Okay, very possible. Though I’d prefer a star/sky based Elder Dragon personally. But that’s like arguing Grenth is Zhaitan. They’re not the same as it’s a fact Grenth is younger than Zhaitan, having been around while Zhaitan was hibernating (just as the other gods were – so God=Dragon is definitely false).

It’s possible that the Six Gods and the Elder Dragons have related sources of energy – I hope that’s not the case as it just ruins who the Six are even more, and I don’t think it is or that evidence points to such (at least on a 1 to 1 scale), but it’s possible.

At best, in any god to dragon relation, it’s that the Six Gods tampered with Zhaitan’s magic – much like how the asura did with Primordus. You can start creating parallels between the powers between the gods, but you eventually falter. Primordus and Balthazar, the DSD and Abaddon (god of water prior to his fall), this supposed plant-based dragon and Melandru… but then it gets tricky. There is then no sky dragon, so it must be life for Dwayna, and the closest to that is Zhaitan, who fits more with Grenth and death. Jormag has mental corruption powers, but has ice, so in terms of how he corrupts he fits Lyssa more, but in what his element is he fits Grenth more. Then there’s Kralkatorrik, which some would argue – probably solely due to color schematics – that Kralkatorrik best fits Lyssa, though there’s nothing mesmeric about him at all. Which comes to another issue – there’s nothing monk-like about Zhaitan so he doesn’t fit Dwayna really. Thus you’re left with Dwayna without a dragon, and Grenth with one. Though if you go by original gods, then it’d be Dhuum in which case Jormag doesn’t fit (Dhuum’s never related to ice).

So then you have Dwayna being dragonless, and either Jormag or Kralkatorrik (depending on which you’d relate to Lyssa) being godless. And Dwayna doesn’t fit either. It just falls apart unless there’s a seventh god and seventh dragon.

So I would argue that the number 6 is likely just a favorite number on ArenaNet’s part, rather than some divine conspiracy (pun intended).

When I said I liked Hero’s version of the story its just that, a VERSION. I know that Anet did not intend the Pale Tree or Sylvari to be made out like that, what I was saying was that I think it was a really cool IDEA if they went that route.

Problem is too many people get too deep into the lore of a game/book/tv series and they will get very upset or offended if the creators change it too much beyond what they already like of the lore.

So ya, I seriously doubt Anet has done it that way or will, just thought it was a cool concept.

Not to interrupt our sensationalist thread titles and conspiracy theories, but I hear a lot of talk about how sylvari can’t be corrupted. Is this ever mentioned or explained in-game? If so, by who? I never ran into it.

While we’re at it, I want to point out that there’s a sylvari in Orr that becomes one of the Risen during an event in the Arah chain, complete with a line of dialogue and everything. It’s this guy: http://i.imgur.com/nCUle.jpg

I don’t have a picture of him as a Risen character (and part of me suspects the work of bugs given a typo in the new mob’s name), but I can try and get one.

ANet has said that Sylvari cannot be corrupted by the Elder Dragons. When it comes to the point that they would normally be corrupted, they just die.

That’s probably just an NPC using the wrong character model.