Guild Wars 2

[Part 4] That’s about it. A lot of what I wrote here are pure assumptions and most of them are probably going to be dismissed by people who knows a lot more about the lore than me. But I do WANT to believe that Mordremoth is actually still sleeping under the Pale Tree and that the tree is keeping him in check which would explain why the dragon can’t even control the sylvari that are not under the « Dream’s protection ». Finally, I strongly believe that Scarlet is going to destroy the Pale Tree, freeing the dragon and bringing hell down upon her entire race (and Tyria). And future content will see the sylvaris creating a new home in the Maguuma Jungle while trying to ward off the dragon’s evil influence.

Sorry I know it was a few long replies and I’d like to add for those who believe nothing indicates the Pale Tree or the Grove as a possible target … You’re right. And I think that’s the point. It’s a strategy to hide her true goal, to make sure her own plan succeed without us having the time to mount a proper counter-strategy. This isn’t a coincidence if none of the event involving Scarlet happens in Sylvari controlled lands (except Kessex Hills which is closer to Divinity’s Reach imo) or near the Grove. It’s like she’s trying to convince us : “I’m not interested in the Grove! Don’t worry about it!”. Yeah, right ! Even if she may not be after the Pale Tree itself, just as DarcShriek said on my original post, she’s definetly trying to destroy the Dream and I don’t see her doing that from LA.

Pecto.8914:

Once she has access to this leyline, I believe she’ll use the powerful poison she created in the Tower of Nightmares and mix it inside the magical current. Of course, I don’t even know if it is possible to do such a thing, to use the magical leylines as conductors, but anything is possible in a magical fantasy world. Now, why would she do this? She wants to poison and cripple the Pale Tree. I strongly believe that this poison was created to weaken or even destroy the Pale Tree.

Ok, maybe I’m an idiot. But if she wanted to poison the Pale Tree… why wouldn’t she simply take her fleet to the Grove, and inject the poison directly into the Pale Tree? You do not have to dig in Lion’s Arch for that.

People seem so desperate to tie this to the Pale Tree. And I’m not saying they are wrong, but look at what evidence is in front of us. She is going to attack Lion’s Arch. You don’t attack Lion’s Arch if you’re after the Pale Tree. So she’s probably not after the Pale Tree.

[Part 5] Maybe she’s not after the Pale Tree Mad Queen Malafide, but I assumed in my theory that she can’t hurt the tree using conventional method. Thats why I was thinking she was gonna use the leyline in LA to poison the tree from its very roots. But its an assumption coming from nearly nothing and I know it. I doubt the tree would go down easily though if she were to attack it in a conventional way. Even the Nightmare Tower was hard to bring down. So maybe, even with her newly improved toxin, she can’t just take the tree down. Plus, I don’t think taking the fight directly to the grove without weakening the Pale Tree first would work because you can bet your kitten that tree got some insane defenses of its own. I doubt the Pale Tree is defenseless against Scarlet’s army. On the other hand, LA’s an easier target since it suffered a few series of attacks these past few years and Tyria’s forces are already stretch thin. I also believe that Scarlet will use her attack on LA to destroy its town portals in order to isolate or delay any tyrian reiforcements. Plus, using Mai Trin presence in the Edge of the Mists, she could also block the mists portals to ensure that no mists warriors come back to LA to defend the city against Scarlet invasion or to defend the Grove if some of my assumptions turns out to be true. That would make Lion’s Arch a strategicaly wise decision for Scarlet. From there, she could cripple one of the most successful government in Tyria, create a mayhem, isolate any reinforcements from any races in their own cities by taking out the hub of magical transport in Tyria and she could cripple the Pale Tree from a distance using the leyline without exposing her real goal till the very last moment. By then, it would be too late for us to reach the Grove and prevent the Pale Tree’s destruction because we don’t have a kittenload of magical airship like Scarlet does.

Pecto.8914:

Plus, I don’t think taking the fight directly to the grove without weakening the Pale Tree first would work because you can bet your kitten that tree got some insane defenses of its own.

Defenses, which so far have been completely absent and invisible. I think apart from the Sylvari around her, we have every reason to assume that the Pale Tree has no defenses against an invading army.

Pecto.8914:

I doubt the Pale Tree is defenseless against Scarlet’s army, especially if we try to defend it.

How would that be any different from us defending Lion’s Arch?

Pecto.8914:

On the other hand, LA’s an easier target since it suffered a few series of attacks these past few years and Tyria’s forces are already stretch thin.

No. Lion’s Arch is an easier target, because Scarlet has been weakening it herself. She could have done the same with the Grove, if she wanted to. But she didn’t. She is clearly after something in Lion’s Arch, or after the city itself.

Under any other situation, Lion’s Arch would have actually been the harder target, since it can get reinforcements from Hoelbrak, Divinity’s Reach, The Black Citadel, The Grove, Rata Sum, Ebonhawk and The Mists (and maybe Southsun Cove, if there were people there that could help). The Grove only has one portal to Lion’s Arch, but Lion’s Arch has many other portals.

Pecto.8914:

My assumption is that he is sleeping beneath the Pale Tree and that the Pale Tree is actually keeping him in its dormant state to prevent his actual rise.

And what suggests that Pale Tree is aboive Elder Dragon? Dude, that makes no sense. Do you even know how the seed of the Pale Tree was moved to the place where the Grove is now?

Elder Dragon is certainly not underneath the Pale Tree.
Though Pale Tree might be preventing Mordemorth from awaking, and using magic currents to do so. With that massive magic current she does not transfer to her Dragon, as a champion, she spends on creating Sylvari. Scarlet wishes to cut her off from the ley line that transfers the magic to the Pale Tree. Thus, making it unable to maintain The Dream of Dreams, creating new Sylvari and possibly weakening her overall. With that in mind, she can attack the tree or make it die slowly by just actions I mentioned. Redirected magic currents go straight towards Mordemorth, thus awakening him.

Makes so much more sense now.

Mad Queen Malafide, I doubt that the Pale Tree can’t defend itself on his own just because we never saw its defenses. As far as I know, the Pale Tree was never attacked before so I don’t know why it should have shown any of its defenses in the past just to show off. And I don’t want to dismiss their existence just because I’ve never seen them in action. To think that such an incredible living being such as the Pale Tree is absolutely helpless against any exterior attack is ridiculous. You’re sticking too much on the few evidences we have without trying to see past them in order to predict what could happen. Evidence about Scarlet are still scarce. But still, you’re making good points about Lion’s Arch being a tougher target than the Grove and I admit many of my own arguments are not rock-solid and lacks evidence or any proofs. (^^) In the end, it all comes down to my assumption about the leyline and the toxic poison. If it turns out to be true, it could explain why Scarlet wanted to attack Lion’s Arch so badly. But that theory has no evidence to support it so I doubt you’ll consider it. But I understand that it’s hard to put too much credibility on a bunch of hunches and theories…

Aethelbert : you may be right about the dragon’s location not being under the Pale Tree. I just thought it would be awesome to see the dragon emerge from the ashes of the Pale Tree at the end of this story arc. I thought the dragon’s proximity to the Pale Tree could explain why it is different from the other trees. I know Ronan was the one to plant the seed of the Pale Tree on his family’s graves and that he and Ventari took care of the tree until their deaths. It is assumed that Ventari’s teaching had an influence on the tree as it grows but seriously, it doesn’t explain the existence of the Dream or why the Pale Tree is different than his sibling. Surely, there is something more about the tree’s history that is yet to be revealed. I agree that Mordremoth could be anywhere and I’m happy to see that you share my opinion : that the Pale Tree is actually preventing from awakening. Although, why is this the Pale Tree’s mission ? Why not any of the other trees we know exist ? Why is the Pale Tree the only one to benefit from the Dream ? Because of Ventari’s tablet ? That’s clearly not a sufficient explanation to explain the link between the Pale Tree and the Dream. Because there’s a link between Mordremoth’s dreaming state and the Pale Tree ? I assume as much and I think you agree with me. But why is it only the Pale Tree that shares this connection ? Well, I think that’s because they share some proximity and because it was the Pale Tree’s destiny/purpose/wild hunt (?) to prevent this dragon’s rise from the very beginning. And since its origin is still a bit shady, I GUESSED that someone (maybe Ronan, Ventari or even someone/something else) planted the seed at that particular location because they wanted it to serve the purpose they intended for it. Once again, I might be totally wrong and the Jungle Dragon might be hiding in Maguuma but I wanted to share a bit more about why I thought the dragon could be beneath the Plae Tree since you seemed to think it was unlikely … and maybe it is.

Gnat.9405:

whatever it is that probe found…

Inb4 Scepter of Orr

I haven’t read SoS, do we ever find out what Livia did with it? I doubt she would just leave it in Lion’s Arch but the probe is in Old Lion’s Arch and it’s the only one we saw light up (afaik).

Having said that, Scarlet was interested in Lion’s Arch before the probe lit up.

Hey Guys
Today i came here to drop some of my thoughts and talk about what i think. Since I have a pretty rational look at the story, I guess I’m going to keep it short, but maybe it won’t happen.

The Pale Tree being a Dragon minion? I seriously doubt that. While we have Malyck and stuff, it just seems to be a too obvious theory. The whole thing is based on the thought of both, the Pale Tree and Mordremoth, being connected to plants. There definitely is a connection, but not such a simple one.

I want to connect 2 of my thoughts, regarding this connection

1. My guess is that the Dream is protecting the Sylvari from the influence of the EDs, maybe just Mordremoth’s influence.

2. What Scarlet saw was, imo definitely, Mordremoth.
Here i want to refer to the follow line in Scarlet’s Journal.
“I’m trying not to sleep—too scareD to even close my eyes… So scared. Whispers come from the forest all night long, calling me, taunting me, possessing me. "
Whoelse’s whisper should come from the forest.

“Tonight, I saw it. I stared into the abyss, anD it stared back at me. So much power. I don’t know what’s real and what isn’t anymore.” The Dragon staring back at her, makes him seem a like a smarter boy for me than Zhaitan. Scarlet, who abandoned the Dream, is free for his reach. He senses Sylvari, who are broken and confused, with what they want. Remember, that Scarlet knows a secret about Caithe? Did Mordremoth also reach out at Caithe, in her weakest moment, when her beloved Faolein poisoned her and Caithe was under brutal emotional pressure? Were the Dream strong enough to protect all Firstborn back then? Maybe Mordremoth wanted to ‘attack’ immediately, by influencing the Firstborn, who where comepletely new to the world. All of them might share this secret. That’s what also the Pale Tree knows and why it warns Ceara. And here i come with something, nobody really thought about until now i guess. Everytime we think about Caithe, we also think about Faolein. She is the immensely seducing leader of the nightmare court an. What about Cadeyrn, the creator of the Nightmare Court. He didn’t accept Ventari’s Tablet, he wanted to be free, just like Ceara. Did Faolein and Cadeyrn establish the Nightmare Court in order to build minions for Mordremoth? Do the Courtiers even know about being abused? I know i might ask many questions, but I guess they are worth it to think about.

Mordremoth is a Dragon, who doesn’t only rely on his minions. He is searching for far more powerful companions. What would be more suitable, than the Sylvari. Most of them are so naive.. new to the world. Then of course we have Malyck. We know, he didn’t dream, and we know, that he wasn’t born from our Pale Tree. But what if he’s special? He still was born within our accessible territory. Did Mordremoth simply ignore him? Does he have more Sylvari within his very surroundings, who are much easier to seduce?

You know I really, really like the idea of Sylvari being Tyria’s own defense system and antibodies against the Dragons. They can’t be influenced by Dragon Corruption, but maybe by mind tricks? Maybe the Sylvari were the Sixth Ancient Race to fight the EDs. Maybe Mordremoth knows/remembers them, trying to manipulate them this time by creeping into their minds, like a virus.

I know that I’m texting very very much intelligence into Mordremoth, but let’s think about Zhaitan being the Vigil, with fleets, trebuchets and massive armees. Then Mordremoth could be the Order of Whispers… sneeking into the lines of his enemies, without them even noticing.. collecting information via seemingly unrelated Minions, who are pretending to be the biggest danger, which Tyria has right now. Zhaitan attacked LA all out on his own, with his army.. and failed. Mordremoth might have been a smarter boy…

Pecto.8914:

Mad Queen Malafide, I doubt that the Pale Tree can’t defend itself on his own just because we never saw its defenses. As far as I know, the Pale Tree was never attacked before so I don’t know why it should have shown any of its defenses in the past just to show off. And I don’t want to dismiss their existence just because I’ve never seen them in action. To think that such an incredible living being such as the Pale Tree is absolutely helpless against any exterior attack is ridiculous.

It’s a tree! What is it going to do? Grow cannons? If a bunch of airships show up to set fire to it, it is utterly helpless. We have no reason to assume the Pale Tree has any sort of defense what so ever. Not just because we haven’t seen any, but because it is a tree. A tree!

Pecto.8914:

You’re sticking too much on the few evidences we have without trying to see past them in order to predict what could happen. Evidence about Scarlet are still scarce.

I simply go where the evidence leads. And we do have a ton of evidence. We were literally handed a whole lair filled with clues, and we got a cut scene in the dead end bar examining every single last detail of the investigation. We do not have few evidences, we have a lot. And information about Scarlet is also not scarce. We have her whole back story and her personal diary!

We all have our own pet theories, but go where the evidence leads.

• There’s a giant dragon painted on the ceiling of her lair, with what looks like tendrils on its back, so we know an Elder Dragon is likely involved. It doesn’t resemble Primordus, but it does resemble something vaguely plant-like.
• We know Scarlet means to strike Lion’s Arch. We don’t know why, but we do know that the Pale Tree is not in Lion’s Arch.

This whole idea that Scarlet wants to destroy the Pale Tree purely hinges on the fact that she’s a Sylvari who abandoned the Pale Tree, and who would want to liberate the other Sylvari as well. Which as far as we know, does not match her character in the slightest. We know Scarlet had a dream of a red vine entangling the Pale Tree, and that she drew a picture of that dream in her lair, but that is about it.

Aethelbert.1497:

Pecto.8914:

My assumption is that he is sleeping beneath the Pale Tree and that the Pale Tree is actually keeping him in its dormant state to prevent his actual rise.

And what suggests that Pale Tree is aboive Elder Dragon? Dude, that makes no sense. Do you even know how the seed of the Pale Tree was moved to the place where the Grove is now?

Elder Dragon is certainly not underneath the Pale Tree.
Though Pale Tree might be preventing Mordemorth from awaking, and using magic currents to do so. With that massive magic current she does not transfer to her Dragon, as a champion, she spends on creating Sylvari. Scarlet wishes to cut her off from the ley line that transfers the magic to the Pale Tree. Thus, making it unable to maintain The Dream of Dreams, creating new Sylvari and possibly weakening her overall. With that in mind, she can attack the tree or make it die slowly by just actions I mentioned. Redirected magic currents go straight towards Mordemorth, thus awakening him.

Makes so much more sense now.

Actually, the dragon could be under the Pale Tree. Primordius gave off so much magic, that the Asura created their central transfer chamber near him. If Mordy is beneath the Pale Tree, the magic coming from him may explain why creatures of the dream exist in the area.

I believe it is the dream, not the Pale Tree, that Scarlet wants to destroy. If she kills the dragon, she kills the dream. Then her people can live free. I believe the dragon knows she wants to kill him, but doesn’t believe she can and has influenced her so that her efforts will instead advance his goals. Just as out attempts to defeat the ToN only played into Scarlet’s hand.

When I said evidences about Scarlet were scarce, I admit I may have exagerated … but we still have no clues as to what her final motive is except the fact that she wants to attack Lion’s Arch (and will attack it), that she’s obsessed with the dream and the concept of free will /independance (as hinted by Jory during the Edge of the Mists story) and that she’s searching for something that may be hidden under Lion’s Arch. What I did is speculate on what her ultimate motive might be and I still used the facts we have while doing so. But the truth is, what’s going to happen after the Lion’s Arch attack when the finale happens on march 4th is everyone’s guess. Mine was that it would be a final battle in the Grove, the explanation of Scarlet’s ultimate motive being shattering the Dream by destroying the Pale Tree but I’m only assuming this because this is what I would love to see. And if I’m so obsessed with the destruction of the Pale Tree, it is because of the part of Scarlet’s dream when she was in Omadd’s machine where she sees a big tree being strangled by red thorns. I always assumed that the Red Vines/Thorns represented Scarlet or the entity controlling her and that the Tree was the Pale Tree. Since then, I always thought Scarlet’s goal was to destroy the Pale Tree. Once again, this is my interpretation of her dream and I may be wrong. But it makes sense to me if you believe the dream is linked to the existence of the Pale Tree in some ways. Even more so if we assume that the dream could come from Mordremoth’s dormant state and that the tree is the only thing preventing him from completely awakening. Thus, the only way to shatter the dream could be to wake Mordremoth and the only way to do so would be to cripple the tree. Maybe not destroy it as Darcshriek said, but doing something to it in order to break its control over the Jungle Dragon. But I’m really grasping at straws here ….

“It’s a tree! What is it going to do? Grow cannons? If a bunch of airships show up to set fire to it, it is utterly helpless. We have no reason to assume the Pale Tree has any sort of defense what so ever. Not just because we haven’t seen any, but because it is a tree. A tree!” by Mad Queen Malafide (sorry I don’t know how to quote properly)

You made many good points and arguments but this one, I just can’t buy it. You’re comparing the Pale Tree to normal trees. You’re basically saying that the Pale Tree can’t defend itself because it’s a tree. Can a tree breed an entire race ? Does a tree speaks and think ? Does a tree possesses a spirit/soul or shows any signs of intelligence/awareness ? Are all trees magic in nature ? Are all trees 1000 feet high (possible exageration here) ? No. You can’t compare the Pale Tree to a regular tree. And if the Pale Tree really is helpless against exterior attacks and solely relies on the sylvaries to protect him, can we assume that without them, a few hundred guys with sharp axes could come and chop it down ? And it wouldnt defend itself in any ways ? I’m sorry but I disagree.

Posted by Shiren : “Having said that, Scarlet was interested in Lion’s Arch before the probe lit up.”

Well, that really bothers me …………… No matter what happens in the following weeks, I think that might be a plot hole. I always assumed that during the Flames and Frost/Dragon Bash festival, before Scarlet’s introduction, the devs didn’t really exactly knew where they were going with the Living Story arc. Or Scarlet was interested in Lion’s Arch at first for its political potential ? After all, it is the only united government with representatives from each major races and can easily be considered as the “capital” of Tyria. Even Zhaitan’s wanted it gone. But I’m not too convinced by my own argument.

Pecto.8914:

Posted by Shiren : “Having said that, Scarlet was interested in Lion’s Arch before the probe lit up.”

Well, that really bothers me …………… No matter what happens in the following weeks, I think that might be a plot hole. I always assumed that during the Flames and Frost/Dragon Bash festival, before Scarlet’s introduction, the devs didn’t really exactly knew where they were going with the Living Story arc. Or Scarlet was interested in Lion’s Arch at first for its political potential ? After all, it is the only united government with representatives from each major races and can easily be considered as the “capital” of Tyria. Even Zhaitan’s wanted it gone. But I’m not too convinced by my own argument.

Actually, when they STARTED the living story with flame and frost they released a nice little video where they explained that they had pretty much the whole story arc for the year written up.

They also stated that at the beginning it’s gonna be very vague and hard to see how exactly everything fits together but it’d be clear in the end…. You know the two things most people kitten about on the forums because they don’t actually follow stuff…

That being said if her attack on LA succeedes I wouldn’t be surprised if she goes for the grove, although I’m almost positive DR and BC would be first…

I’ve always thought that Scarlet’s reason for targeting LA in the first place was either precautionary (in case the probe there was needed. I’m assuming she’s been planning the locations of the probes before F&F) or to stop the races/adventurers of Tyria from being able to stop her from what she’s always wanted to do as easily. Destroying LA is going to set the races back.

She’s probably very aware we’ve ‘defeated’ Zhaitan (unless she knows something we don’t) and the Marionette fight had dialogue hinting that she’s trying to cull defenders’ numbers. She must understand that we’re a large threat to stopping her despite her blasé reactions to us whenever we see her.

I’m just gonna throw this out there…but is there any possibility of Scarlet being connected to the White Mantle? I don’t know much on GW1 lore.

The more I read into the theories, the less I’m convinced she’s related to the Dragons. My original theory for Scarlet, was that she wanted to become something close to a god (or goddess). Her ego, her love for creating and tinkering, and her stubborness to accept the Dream and its linked Destiny, all seem to point toward it. Problem with that theory, is that her journal seems to suggest that she was already ‘being affected’ by something else on the inside, before she even met Omadd. (And yet, the pages spell out his name…something guided her to him, or just forged evidence to lead us astray?)

I’m just going to bring up an old question I posted a long time ago, that still seems to hold merit:

Arikyali.5804:

Whether Scarlet actually got a glimpse of the Eternal Alchemy or just went completely insane, after she emerged from Omadd’s machine, she was completely changed. She’s disconnected from the dream, much like the Soundless. The Soundless want to separate themselves from the Dream, so that their thoughts could be uninfluenced, and their own.

Scarlet doesn’t want to be limited by the destiny defined in the dream. She wants to make her own. But here’s a thought: Did Scarlet cut herself off, or maybe the dream itself…?

The Soundless invested a lot of time with meditation to separate themselves from the dream. Scarlet was part of the Dream before she went in the machine, and (supposedly) severed when she got out. It can’t be the Pale Tree, since she has no control over the dream, and is only its caretaker. Scarlet’s memories and knowledge could have influenced the Dream, and thus be considered a threat to the rest of the Sylvari.

No one exactly knows what the Dream is. It might be something related to the Mists or Eternal Alchemy, or something completely separate.

How did Scarlet get severed from the dream so quickly? Was she forced, or was it by her own free will?

Arikyali.5804:

The more I read into the theories, the less I’m convinced she’s related to the Dragons. My original theory for Scarlet, was that she wanted to become something close to a god (or goddess). Her ego, her love for creating and tinkering, and her stubborness to accept the Dream and its linked Destiny, all seem to point toward it. Problem with that theory, is that her journal seems to suggest that she was already ‘being affected’ by something else on the inside, before she even met Omadd. (And yet, the pages spell out his name…something guided her to him, or just forged evidence to lead us astray?)

The more I read about these ‘theories’, the more I lose trust in humanity. Come on, it’s a game about dragons. With a dragon on the logo. Then comes painting in Scarlet’s lair, mind you, it’s a giant dragon, all the hints in her journal. What makes you ignoring these facts?

And the fact pages spell out his name – it doesn’t suggest what you said. It all seems to be an unfortunate chain of events. Or a destiny, implying this happens in a kittening fantasy world.

Aethelbert.1497:

The more I read about these ‘theories’, the more I lose trust in humanity. Come on, it’s a game about dragons. With a dragon on the logo. Then comes painting in Scarlet’s lair, mind you, it’s a giant dragon, all the hints in her journal. What makes you ignoring these facts?

The game’s title is Guild Wars yet we don’t see story content concerning wars between guilds now do we. Just because the Elder Dragons are in the world doesn’t mean everything has to be connected to them. Especially every psychopath that decides to cause trouble. The story would become quite stale in a short period. In fact the only mention of actual wars between guilds in the original guild wars story was things that occurred in the past.

Also there are flaws in the “Elder Dragons” hypothesis that those who are supporting said hypothesis are ignoring.

Darkbattlemage.9612:

Aethelbert.1497:

The more I read about these ‘theories’, the more I lose trust in humanity. Come on, it’s a game about dragons. With a dragon on the logo. Then comes painting in Scarlet’s lair, mind you, it’s a giant dragon, all the hints in her journal. What makes you ignoring these facts?

The game’s title is Guild Wars yet we don’t see story content concerning wars between guilds now do we. Just because the Elder Dragons are in the world doesn’t mean everything has to be connected to them. Especially every psychopath that decides to cause trouble. The story would become quite stale in a short period. In fact the only mention of actual wars between guilds in the original guild wars story was things that occurred in the past.

Also there are flaws in the “Elder Dragons” hypothesis that those who are supporting said hypothesis are ignoring.

It’s called Guild Wars 2 for a reason, and reason is because it is in the same universe, that Guild Wars and add-on campagns were in. And as a sequel, it should retain the name, to avoid confusing players. I really lose faith in humanity right now.

Of course there are flaws, geez. People make their theories and hypothesis based on small portions of information they have. Obviously, they have not all information, so they might be wrong about something, and these theories evolved as Living World story made progress. Now it is getting more and more obvious, because we are, in fact, reaching the culmination of the first chapter.

Aethelbert.1497:

Darkbattlemage.9612:

Aethelbert.1497:

The more I read about these ‘theories’, the more I lose trust in humanity. Come on, it’s a game about dragons. With a dragon on the logo. Then comes painting in Scarlet’s lair, mind you, it’s a giant dragon, all the hints in her journal. What makes you ignoring these facts?

The game’s title is Guild Wars yet we don’t see story content concerning wars between guilds now do we. Just because the Elder Dragons are in the world doesn’t mean everything has to be connected to them. Especially every psychopath that decides to cause trouble. The story would become quite stale in a short period. In fact the only mention of actual wars between guilds in the original guild wars story was things that occurred in the past.

Also there are flaws in the “Elder Dragons” hypothesis that those who are supporting said hypothesis are ignoring.

It’s called Guild Wars 2 for a reason, and reason is because it is in the same universe, that Guild Wars and add-on campagns were in. And as a sequel, it should retain the name, to avoid confusing players. I really lose faith in humanity right now.

Of course there are flaws, geez. People make their theories and hypothesis based on small portions of information they have. Obviously, they have not all information, so they might be wrong about something, and these theories evolved as Living World story made progress. Now it is getting more and more obvious, because we are, in fact, reaching the culmination of the first chapter.

And the closer we get the more and more it’s looking like the dragon theories are wrong….

Not to mention that point he made about the guild wars went WAAAAAAAAAAY over your head…

Actually the reason it was ever called Guild Wars in the first place was because the historical event in tyrian history known as the Guild Wars which almost led to the humans driving themselves to extinction.

what is the chance of it not being mordremoth at this point lol

Gnat.9405:

what is the chance of it not being mordremoth at this point lol

About 0 chance. I will be very very surprised if it is not…

Aethelbert.1497:

I really lose faith in humanity right now.

Prepare yourself to have your faith shattered completely, (insert evil laugh here)

Through the logic that a painting of a dragon automatically points to an Elder Dragons, Cantha is already a bastion of Elder Dragon Power for the empire that rules that land is called….The Empire of the Dragon.

Darkbattlemage.9612:

Aethelbert.1497:

I really lose faith in humanity right now.

Prepare yourself to have your faith shattered completely, (insert evil laugh here)

Through the logic that a painting of a dragon automatically points to an Elder Dragons, Cantha is already a bastion of Elder Dragon Power for the empire that rules that land is called….The Empire of the Dragon.

(You’re making a joke right? But since I can’t tell) Equating a place that calls itself the “Empire of the Dragon” with Elder Dragons is problematic for couple of reasons.
1. As far as we know there were no humans during the previous Elder Dragon rise which means that Canthan’s had no idea what an Elder Dragon is/was.
2. Cantha was decently populated by Saltspray dragons – we have no idea if they have any relation to Elder Dragons whatsoever – but we do know that they aren’t inherently evil.
3. Dragon does not = Elder Dragon.

Honestly that dragon painting in Scarlet’s lair, atleast to me, looks more like a grawl painting. It has more “grawl” style to it than any other painting styles we see in-game.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Grawl_Cave_Painting
https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/131881/2014-01-22_00001.jpg

I mean all scribblings, oops sorry I meant paintings, by Scarlet look like something a 3yr old would draw while the dragon painting had more, should I say, flair to it. For all we know Scarlet just drove some grawl out of their caves with the help of her minions and took over the place.

And geez, it’s a game. No need to “lose faith in humanity” over a player’s speculation. I mean I have been hearing “Sylvari are dragon minions” theory for over a year and a lot of regulars must’ve debunked it 1000 times (no. of times they should’ve lost faith in humanity) by now. There’s nothing “inhumane” in speculating over a game’s lore.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Darkbattlemage.9612:

Aethelbert.1497:

I really lose faith in humanity right now.

Prepare yourself to have your faith shattered completely, (insert evil laugh here)

Through the logic that a painting of a dragon automatically points to an Elder Dragons, Cantha is already a bastion of Elder Dragon Power for the empire that rules that land is called….The Empire of the Dragon.

(You’re making a joke right? But since I can’t tell) Equating a place that calls itself the “Empire of the Dragon” with Elder Dragons is problematic for couple of reasons.
1. As far as we know there were no humans during the previous Elder Dragon rise which means that Canthan’s had no idea what an Elder Dragon is/was.
2. Cantha was decently populated by Saltspray dragons – we have no idea if they have any relation to Elder Dragons whatsoever – but we do know that they aren’t inherently evil.
3. Dragon does not = Elder Dragon.

That’s what he actually said jokingly, if I understood it right. He said by the logic of “dragon painting = ED”, Cantha should’ve been Empire of ED’s just because it’s called The Empire of the Dragon.

Ok right, I thought so but I’m too tired to distinguish between jokes and stupidity >.> (I don’t think you’re stupid though DBM, I appreciate your sarcasm).

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Ok right, I thought so but I’m too tired to distinguish between jokes and stupidity >.> (I don’t think you’re stupid though DBM, I appreciate your sarcasm).

I understand and to clarify for anyone else yes I was joking about Cantha being dragon minions.

Although seeing your earlier post I am tempted to lie and say I did it on purpose to make a point that depictions of dragons don’t equal Elder Dragons. Just my luck my sarcastic comments leads to the point I was trying to explain but couldn’t.

phaneo.4597:

Honestly that dragon painting in Scarlet’s lair, atleast to me, looks more like a grawl painting. It has more “grawl” style to it than any other painting styles we see in-game.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Grawl_Cave_Painting
https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/131881/2014-01-22_00001.jpg

Fair point. Plus there are grawls in that adjacent tunnel. So it’s possible. It just seems a bit unlikely from the writers to include that massive dragon painting in her lair, if it wasn’t some how involved in all this.

Darkbattlemage.9612:

Aethelbert.1497:

I really lose faith in humanity right now.

Prepare yourself to have your faith shattered completely, (insert evil laugh here)

Through the logic that a painting of a dragon automatically points to an Elder Dragons, Cantha is already a bastion of Elder Dragon Power for the empire that rules that land is called….The Empire of the Dragon.

Sorry to disappoint you, but Arena Net likes refencing real-world stuff. Asian ‘dragon’ is something else. It is often a kind of title of the emperor, or rather an epithet. It may be the reference, or intentional use of that ‘dragon’ epithet. Think harder before posting, bro. Plus dragons, as it seems, exist in this universe, aside from dem Elder Dragons. Problem, officer?

phaneo.4597:

Honestly that dragon painting in Scarlet’s lair, atleast to me, looks more like a grawl painting. It has more “grawl” style to it than any other painting styles we see in-game.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Grawl_Cave_Painting
https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/131881/2014-01-22_00001.jpg

I mean all scribblings, oops sorry I meant paintings, by Scarlet look like something a 3yr old would draw while the dragon painting had more, should I say, flair to it. For all we know Scarlet just drove some grawl out of their caves with the help of her minions and took over the place.

And geez, it’s a game. No need to “lose faith in humanity” over a player’s speculation. I mean I have been hearing “Sylvari are dragon minions” theory for over a year and a lot of regulars must’ve debunked it 1000 times (no. of times they should’ve lost faith in humanity) by now. There’s nothing “inhumane” in speculating over a game’s lore.

Honestly, when I look at people who have no drawing skills whatsoever, their works all look to me like ‘grawl painting’. It requires talent and skill to draw properly, and if you have no – you will always stuck somewhere in 3 years old level. Just because you don’t have the talent and wasn’t taught/self taught.

And geez, I am just adding irony to my messages. Why do you take forum posts so serious?

Aethelbert.1497:

Sorry to disappoint you, but Arena Net likes refencing real-world stuff. Asian ‘dragon’ is something else. It is often a kind of title of the emperor, or rather an epithet. It may be the reference, or intentional use of that ‘dragon’ epithet. Think harder before posting, bro. Plus dragons, as it seems, exist in this universe, aside from dem Elder Dragons. Problem, officer?

I am not disappointed as your responded exactly how I anticipated. Taking my sarcastic remark serious, even when I said I was joking. But the point I was trying to make using the game title still remains, in a more simplified form thanks to FlamingFoxx since you seem to have missed the point entirely. But it seems even that you missed that point as well so I’ll just bluntly say the point.

The information presented by the living story does not point to Elder Dragon involvement. Glint has mention a world dominated by Dragons and if she is any indication of that world, then it stands to reason they were all highly intelligent. This means that either A) The Elder Dragons dabbled into some extremely forbidden Dragon Magic to become the creatures they are today, thus also creating the problem of magic growing unstable over time. Or The Elder Dragons are actually be spiritual entities that base their physical forms off the Dragons as have been suggested already by another form user. So it could be Scarlet is seeking out ancient Dragon artifacts or even an uncorrupted Dragons. She is against being a puppet but she doesn’t actively seek to destroy what she perceives as attempting to control her, as evident by the fact she never took any direct action against the Pale Tree. Even in her madden state she doesn’t appear to be threatening the entity that she hears but rather arguing that everything she has done was for her not it. This sounds similar to how an Asura relationship would work, with the two Asura nearing the termination of their relationship arguing over who gets the inventions.

Her behavior doesn’t match up with any known Dragon minion, instead it aligns more perfectly with how Demons are said to act. All we truly know is whatever she saw was already present in her to begin with. The Asura mentioning requiring further study of the dream, which some took as irrefutable proof Sylvari are dragon minions, but he could just be saying that to try and pressure the Sylvari to submit to Asura experimentation once again. Sylvari do have a unique physiology, which terminates itself when invaded by Dragon Corruption, it is possible it has similar functionality concerning infestations of non Elder Dragon energies or entities.

If the only two choices are “Elder Dragons did it” or “Demons did it” than the arrows would more strongly point towards Demons as she is causing chaos and mayhem with everything she does, killing many thus providing ample souls for the demons consumption, and her behavior is similar to Luxon Reavers who were being influenced by a demon. Only one arrow exclusively points to a Dragon, the painting itself.

The voices she hearing is a phenomena that may be shared with both demons and Elder Dragons, and in fact may indicate a hidden connection between the two.

Aethelbert.1497:

Honestly, when I look at people who have no drawing skills whatsoever, their works all look to me like ‘grawl painting’. It requires talent and skill to draw properly, and if you have no – you will always stuck somewhere in 3 years old level. Just because you don’t have the talent and wasn’t taught/self taught.

Problem Scarlet should already possess the skill to draw highly detailed pictures of various things, as evident by the detail put into her blueprints.

Darkbattlemage.9612:

Aethelbert.1497:

Honestly, when I look at people who have no drawing skills whatsoever, their works all look to me like ‘grawl painting’. It requires talent and skill to draw properly, and if you have no – you will always stuck somewhere in 3 years old level. Just because you don’t have the talent and wasn’t taught/self taught.

Problem Scarlet should already possess the skill to draw highly detailed pictures of various things, as evident by the detail put into her blueprints.

There definitely seems to be two kinds of drawings in Scarlet’s lair. Either you have drawings which are made when she is in a moment of clarity (marionette sword, drill, any type of schematic), and drawings made when she is just bat kitten crazy (the “eye of sauron”, tree with red thorns). The image of the dragon almost seems to be in-between. It seems to be much higher quality than the crazy drawings, just vastly abstracted.

I still think the dragon is grawl drawings…. And before anyone uses the whole “oh well whys it there then?” Argument… Anet love red herrings…

I don’t think it is a grawl drawing… Grawl aren’t tall enough to draw on the roof of a cave and their paintings have never really been that intricate.

Not to mention I’d be super surprised if they managed to get through a cave of Ice Wurms and past the troll that sits outside the entrance.

Well are you implying that Scarlet is tall enough? I can’t remember seeing any ladders in the instance :P

FlamingFoxx.1305:

I don’t think it is a grawl drawing… Grawl aren’t tall enough to draw on the roof of a cave and their paintings have never really been that intricate.

Not to mention I’d be super surprised if they managed to get through a cave of Ice Wurms and past the troll that sits outside the entrance.

Yes because crawling on the walls is out of the question… And how do we know the grawl didn’t inhabit the cave first but were forced out of it due to the encroaching trolls/Wurms or maybe a rockslide or something that blocked off that part of the cave from the other nearby cave?

Um, last I checked Grawl don’t have the ability to walk up walls O_o?

Scarlet could easily have stood on one of her tables or used her red vines to paint it somehow?

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Um, last I checked Grawl don’t have the ability to walk up walls O_o?

Scarlet could easily have stood on one of her tables or used her red vines to paint it somehow?

Seeing as how I’ve managed to get up to the ceiling via jumping on ledges trying to break out of the cave… I’d imagine that the grawl would be capable of climbing he walls or standing on the same ledges to do so…

You don’t need a ladder in a cave, you tend to be able to climb the walls, especially in that one…

But can you paint in the middle of a cave roof by standing on the walls? Pretty sure you can’t unless you have super long arms – which Grawl do not. Nor can they fly.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

But can you paint in the middle of a cave roof by standing on the walls? Pretty sure you can’t unless you have super long arms – which Grawl do not. Nor can they fly.

Grawl pyramid? I mean if they wanted to paint it, pretty simple.

>.> yeah but that’s getting a bit silly.
Also Grawl tend to paint/worship things they can see/that exert their power over them. So I don’t really know why Grawl would be painting a dragon that it’s very unlikely for them to have seen – and I don’t think their artistic talent is good enough to just invent it and then do a creative painting.

I’m inclined to think that dragon painting is important and not a simple red herring(could still be, but they’d have to carefully write it into the story within the next 2 patches to make sure it’s not out of the blue).

Why? Because it’s content for the majority of GW2, and the majority don’t come on the forums to seek closure. If it turned out to be unrelated(ie. just an already existing grawl painting), a lot of players would just be confused. When creating content for the masses, clarity and/of direction is very important.

Obviously, the nearby grawl are a highly advanced tribe that has developed scaffolding technology.

I’ve heard Grawl engineers have had a break through recently – they call it “the stick”!

Maybe they just painted it with a long brush?

I still think it’s Tequatl – that part of the Living Story everyone forgets about.

I think I should debunk the idea that Grawl are THAT primitive. They are not. They may be incredibly superstitious, but that doesn’t mean they are completely unable to build a simple ladder. They are tool-wielding primates. They have clothes, they wield weapons. They can build a frickin ladder. I’m not saying it’s plausible that the dragon painting is just that, Grawl graffiti. But to pretend that they are too stupid to build some scaffolding is incorrect in my opinion.

The painting could be done without ladders, climbing or any of that sort of acrobatics. Think “brush on a long stick”. Regardless of whether it was grawl, Scarlet, or great noodle from the sky.

Very random small tidbit but something I noticed earlier today – the symbol on the Minor rune of Nightmare looks a bit like that zig-zag drawing from her lair that no one figured out yet.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I think I should debunk the idea that Grawl are THAT primitive.

Its one of the Mad King’s jokes . And Mad King Thorn would never, ever lie to us, would he?

I doubt it’s Grawl cave painting , and I still wonder if its more about the dragon we have seen in the Living Story (Tequatl), than any of the one’s we haven’t…