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Posted by: Soulstar.7812

Soulstar.7812

So Living World vs Expansion.

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/473/feature/8118/Guild-Wars-2-Living-Story-VS-Expansion-Fight-.html

What do you guys think about the arguments against Living World content?

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Posted by: Rebound.3409

Rebound.3409

I didn’t read anything about the LS content being also temporary. He should have added that because that’s one key issue here. Not only are we not getting a good amount of content that keeps us interested more then a few hours (in which we finish it)…but it’s also temporary. They added a few things here and there that are permanent and just a few care about.

Yes i fully agree. LS is NOT an expansion replacement. It should be considered a BUFFER between expansions. Bad part is the word “expansion” is completely missing from anet’s vocabulary….on the long run that will cause them huge issues.

Truth is they clearly took on a more then ambitious project that they can’t handle anymore i feel. Huge game…huge promises, huge expectations…and a very very small team to manage them all. This or they have very bad project managers.

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Posted by: SkyFallsInThunder.8257

SkyFallsInThunder.8257

LS is nice and all (sometimes), but I don’t see how it can replace an expansion. And to think that we will be introduced to GW2 Cantha and Elona by way of LS is just laughable.

It would be really nice if ArenaNet came out and made an announcement about future expansions (if any) and when we can expect them. You know, so we can add 6-12 motnhs to that date to get a more reallistic estimate.

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Posted by: Traveller.7496

Traveller.7496

I thought it was a well-written article that summarizes a lot of the criticism towards LS on these forums. Emphasis on this quote

The Living Story is a great supplement to the core story of the game, not the main attraction.

We can only hope that something bigger is on the way.

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Posted by: Stooperdale.3560

Stooperdale.3560

“Not only are we not getting a good amount of content that keeps us interested more then a few hours (in which we finish it)…but it’s also temporary.”

Why are bothered that it is going if you’ve lost interest in it? Most of the good repeatable content has stayed (or will be seasonal) and all the one-off content has gone.

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

The article stated that only one zone has been added and nobody visits it regularly. Well that’s partly false considering that karka queen is done numerous times each day and you have the node farmers. They also ignored that the majority of zones are just as empty as well unless there’s some world boss event going on.

I don’t think an expansion will really keep people busy. All of the “hardcore” players that are instantly bored after rushing through every new update will be bored within a month of the expansion’s release.

(edited by Ayrilana.1396)

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Posted by: Shiren.9532

Shiren.9532

It’s always interesting to me when people and websites talk about the Living World releases and bi-weekly updates, but rarely do they comment on the general quality or substance of the updates. They could be nothing but achievement grinds (which a large portion of the updates are) and the bi-weekly statement stands true.

Living World is really hit or miss. Sometimes the content is something refreshing and new with enough meat on it to make me want to spend more than an hour in it (Nightmare Tower and Bazaar of the Four Winds are examples of this) and other times the content is veiled grind (pretty much every meta achievement seems to be a cynical excuse to keep you in the game) or repetition/slight alteration of the same things that already exist in Tyria (the Kessex Hills zone events).

Colin recently touched on this topic in an interview with Massively.

Johanson said that the living world is new territory; ArenaNet has been steadily learning what works —as well as what doesn’t -- and smoothing out the implementation. He reiterated that the living world and expansion-style content are not mutually exclusive, and that although players may perceive the studio as concentrating on living world content in lieu of expansion content, there are teams working behind the scenes on other projects.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/01/14/exclusive-preview-of-guild-wars-2s-origin-of-madness-release/

We know definitively that the content that would be found in an expansion is being worked on by ArenaNet (and from the sounds of it, it’s got nothing to do with the Living Story content). We don’t know how ArenaNet intends to release it – whether it’s going to be a traditional expansion or whether they want to hook it into the two week release schedule somehow.

Personally I like that this MMO has new content added between large releases. I would personally prefer they release less frequently and put out superior quality content (we’ve seen several examples over the last few months where devs comment that things didn’t make it into the game because of the release schedule and priorities – Kiel’s victory speech is an example). I find something to like in every release but a lot of them are underwhelming or feel like they could have been a lot better if they had taken more time on them. I don’t work at ArenaNet so I don’t know how their dev cycle looks on a day to day basis though.

I’m glad we have Living World but I could do with:

  • Substantial monthly updates instead of bi-weekly ones.
  • No more cynical achievement grinds to pad the updates for content.
  • No more time limited pressure gates intended to pressure you into playing now instead of when you want to. I want my motivation to play to be because it’s fun, not the pressure of missing out. No temporary content (unless its necessary) and forget these temporary meta achievements.

Overall I agree it doesn’t replace an expansion, but I believe ArenaNet thinks the same thing. That’s why they have people working on “expansion” content parallel to Living World teams.

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Posted by: Belenwyn.8674

Belenwyn.8674

Arenanet could release the expansion in an combined way using LW and an traditional addon. New zones , weapons, skills/traits, some dungeons and even a race could be introduced by LW. The Personal story, story modes for dungeons, even more dungeons including the final fight against an Elder Dragon could be delivered by an addon.

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Posted by: Sirendor.1394

Sirendor.1394

All living story did for me is make the game worse than it was. No kudos.

Gandara – Vabbi – Ring of Fire – Fissure of Woe – Vabbi
SPvP as Standalone All is Vain

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Posted by: darkace.8925

darkace.8925

“Johanson said that the living world is new territory; ArenaNet has been steadily learning what works —as well as what doesn’t — and smoothing out the implementation. He reiterated that the living world and expansion-style content are not mutually exclusive, and that although players may perceive the studio as concentrating on living world content in lieu of expansion content, there are teams working behind the scenes on other projects.”

“Ah yes. Behind the scenes. We have dismissed that claim.”

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Posted by: MastaNeenja.1537

MastaNeenja.1537

GW2 will need an expansion, LW cannot replace that. Like the author explained in the time it’s taken to tell the current story, very little story has actually come out. Couple that with the fact that they had to throw up some of the story or background to characters on the web makes an already weak story more diluted. If I don’t see it happen in game it didn’t happen, I don’t expect others to live by that but it’s my reasoning. What they put on the web must not have been very important or it would have made it into the game. If they didn’t have time to put it in the game then they need to change their delivery method which is a bi weekly schedule.

I might actually care about the story if it and it’s characters were fleshed out in the game. But they don’t give me a reason to care about the plot, there’s no sense of player agency, if my character doesn’t show up to the event or chase that particular installment’s carrot the world goes on just fine. Much like the personal story my charter has been superfluous for the most part. Just tagging along doing all the grunt work while the NPCs chatter and then get credit for saving the day.

With an expansion i don’t expect them to tell the best story ever but it might be better than what we’ve been given so far with the PS and the LS. Expansions also bring other things to the game that LW hasn’t really delivered and would feel really rushed, unpolished and lackluster if it came out during one of the bi weekly updates. That is new races, new weapons, new dungeons, or new maps to explore. They have tried a dungeon path and a new zone both of which have gotten mixed reactions at best.

If they want to do an expansion they should start advertising it soon, if they want to keep the LW as their only vehicle for new content great. ESO, Wildstar, and EQN are all up and coming games that I have been looking into. I’m sure that I am not the only one doing that kind of research.

I think this game could have been great, underneath all this LW fluff there is a core foundation for an awesome game, but early on after release someone at the top decided to gut that out and turn GW2 into a cash cow. There’s nothing wrong with a company wanting to make the most profit possible, but sometimes when that’s done it’s done in a short sighted manner.

(edited by MastaNeenja.1537)

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Posted by: Pifil.5193

Pifil.5193

They need to add more. Simply producing a small instance and a new set of achievements to move the zerg to another field every two weeks isn’t enough. They need to add variety in the content they produce and actually tell a story with a bit of pacing.

The quest systems in other games do a better job of telling stories than the systems they’ve used in LS so far have been able to. They need to produce something where a story can be told well (and not 1 short instance every month or so).

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Posted by: darkace.8925

darkace.8925

They need to add more. Simply producing a small instance and a new set of achievements to move the zerg to another field every two weeks isn’t enough.

Because they’re staying the course with the Living Story two week release schedule, we can only surmise that it is indeed enough.

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Posted by: Pifil.5193

Pifil.5193

Because they’re staying the course with the Living Story two week release schedule, we can only surmise that it is indeed enough.

Well, it’s not enough for me. I’ve been on a break since the fractal update and I pretty much just came back to see what’s happening next week, if that’s the same as before then I’ll leave it until they’ve added enough new, permanent content to make playing the game enjoyable again.

I’m sure I’m not alone in getting bored with repeating the same content in a different area and I’m sure that ArenaNet knows that some of their players feel that way.

(edited by Pifil.5193)

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Posted by: darkace.8925

darkace.8925

I’m sure I’m not alone in getting bored with repeating the same content in a different area and I’m sure that ArenaNet knows that some of their players feel that way.

No, you’re not alone. I personally loathe the way the Living Story has be used to implement filler content designed to keep players logging in on a regular basis. But based on the fact that it’s been more of the same over the last year, it looks as if you and I are in the minority. If enough players are logging in – just logging in, mind you…they don’t even have to enjoy it – for the Living Story content then ArenaNet will keep doing what they’ve been doing.

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Posted by: Blockhead Magee.3092

Blockhead Magee.3092

IMO, the LS has been a failure. Poorly written, poorly presented and the current scramble to finally get it over with is long overdue.

The article is right that the living story is not a replacement for expanded content.

SBI

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Posted by: MastaNeenja.1537

MastaNeenja.1537

I’m sure I’m not alone in getting bored with repeating the same content in a different area and I’m sure that ArenaNet knows that some of their players feel that way.

No, you’re not alone. I personally loathe the way the Living Story has be used to implement filler content designed to keep players logging in on a regular basis. But based on the fact that it’s been more of the same over the last year, it looks as if you and I are in the minority. If enough players are logging in – just logging in, mind you…they don’t even have to enjoy it – for the Living Story content then ArenaNet will keep doing what they’ve been doing.

I think our minority is growing, but I am uncertain if that will matter.

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Posted by: MastaNeenja.1537

MastaNeenja.1537

I am going to say something in a more constructive manner as I feel my first post in the thread may have been too much of a rant.

I agree with the points made in the article.

I don’t like that LW updates bi weekly and that most of the updates are tied together through a story line. I think LW works best with stand alone events such as SAB or Teq. I think that LW and a full expansion could actually inhabit the same game but I do not know if that’s in the budget range for Anet. I think a lot of people would be interested to find out if LW is the only way we are ever going to see new content or if we will get a more traditional expansion like we saw in GW1.

I choose to sit out on the majority of the LW updates, I played through several of them in the beginning so I think I gave it a fair shot. So what’s left for players like me? We look head for an expansion, or QoL updates. I log in every day but not for LW but to play with my friends. Is there a large chunk of the player base in a similar situation? I don’t know. There’s was another thread that brought up the idea of using the polling system implemented during the Beta events. So far they have been looking at game metrics but the Dev said something like this may be possible. I think it would be a good feed back idea.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/livingworld/lwd/So-after-Scarlet-is-discarded/page/2#post3477931

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Posted by: Traveller.7496

Traveller.7496

I think our minority is growing, but I am uncertain if that will matter.

I don’t think it matters. They can always wave it off with “we have metrics that show people enjoy the game” or as forum rabble. I don’t think they would give up their plans even if the majority of the people would stop logging in. All we can do is give constructive feedback and hope that they will eventually change their ways.

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Posted by: Yaj.5973

Yaj.5973

I haven’t heard alot of hype for either ESO or Wildstar.

heard people say ESO wasn’t all that impressive. Some even went on to say ESO is a slight downgrade of GW2 with a p2p model.

Wildstar I haven’t heard much. As long as NCSoft doesn’t have a strong say in how it develops, it can be a great game. If NCSoft has a strong say, it may just have terrible support like Aion did (clarify: Aion was a great game, but how the players were often treated by the devs was bad.)

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Posted by: Tobias Trueflight.8350

Tobias Trueflight.8350

I think our minority is growing, but I am uncertain if that will matter.

I don’t think it matters. They can always wave it off with “we have metrics that show people enjoy the game” or as forum rabble. I don’t think they would give up their plans even if the majority of the people would stop logging in. All we can do is give constructive feedback and hope that they will eventually change their ways.

If one side keeps saying things like “but it doesn’t matter” and essentially giving up trying, why would the other side bother listening at all? That’s not an attempt to change things, that’s just . . . unhelpful.

One problem is a lot of people just show up go “it’s all junk”, “it sucks”, “it’s stupid” and don’t elaborate. Add points if they follow it up with “of course, they don’t care”. They care. But they’re not about to abort something in the middle. Especially if it will give yet another “broken promise” to the pile; “Anet promised an update every two weeks and now they stopped because we told them they suck.” Stop and elaborate on why you think it’s not good, it’s stupid, or whatever. Be specific, avoid broad generalizations (especially the words “everyone hates” or “everyone knows”), and suggest alternatives which you think would have worked better.

Another problem is how a lot of this stuff has been made a couple months ago and probably isn’t able to be subjected to sweeping changes without breaking things. Again, they’re not just going to pull the plug and stop it in the middle of the run. They’ll see it through and look at this last “arc” for ways to do better next time. Or if there will even be a next time.

(I’d almost love to see them just give up entirely, pack up the Living world concept in a box, and film dropping it into the ocean with the description “Players, you win, Cantha expansion 2015”)

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Posted by: nexxe.7081

nexxe.7081

Living Story came too fast. It should’ve been developed after a year of GW2’s release.

It was developed too slowly at first, then too fast, and it all feels disconnected since it’s inception. There’s too many loose ends that they’re trying to tie up, with the Molten Alliance, then the Aetherblade, etc.. It could’ve been developed in the background, while updating GW2 with traditional updates instead, then they could’ve released Living Story this year, that was better developed and thought out.

I have to say, that it’s actually a great way of delivering content. A lot of it has been either hit-or-miss though.

(edited by nexxe.7081)

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Posted by: MastaNeenja.1537

MastaNeenja.1537

I think our minority is growing, but I am uncertain if that will matter.

I don’t think it matters. They can always wave it off with “we have metrics that show people enjoy the game” or as forum rabble. I don’t think they would give up their plans even if the majority of the people would stop logging in. All we can do is give constructive feedback and hope that they will eventually change their ways.

If one side keeps saying things like “but it doesn’t matter” and essentially giving up trying, why would the other side bother listening at all? That’s not an attempt to change things, that’s just . . . unhelpful.

One problem is a lot of people just show up go “it’s all junk”, “it sucks”, “it’s stupid” and don’t elaborate. Add points if they follow it up with “of course, they don’t care”. They care. But they’re not about to abort something in the middle. Especially if it will give yet another “broken promise” to the pile; “Anet promised an update every two weeks and now they stopped because we told them they suck.” Stop and elaborate on why you think it’s not good, it’s stupid, or whatever. Be specific, avoid broad generalizations (especially the words “everyone hates” or “everyone knows”), and suggest alternatives which you think would have worked better.

Another problem is how a lot of this stuff has been made a couple months ago and probably isn’t able to be subjected to sweeping changes without breaking things. Again, they’re not just going to pull the plug and stop it in the middle of the run. They’ll see it through and look at this last “arc” for ways to do better next time. Or if there will even be a next time.

(I’d almost love to see them just give up entirely, pack up the Living world concept in a box, and film dropping it into the ocean with the description “Players, you win, Cantha expansion 2015”)

The reason why I say I’m uncertain if it will matter is that they have a business to run and profit to make. They are going to choose which ever method will make the most money and that’s understandable from a business perspective. I’m sure they care about the game and it’s customers but they have budgets to work within and deadlines to meet. So they are going to try and please the largest portion of customers that they can because you can’t please everyone. I don’t know what the numbers are, but I can presume that the LW as it stands is something most players are doing so that’s what they are going with.

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Posted by: morrolan.9608

morrolan.9608

The reason why I say I’m uncertain if it will matter is that they have a business to run and profit to make. They are going to choose which ever method will make the most money and that’s understandable from a business perspective. I’m sure they care about the game and it’s customers

A game with the extreme reliance on RNG and gambling boxes that this has is not one where the devs display a lot of care about the players.

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Posted by: Toroxus.9256

Toroxus.9256

The idea of the living story is great. I’m currently appalled at the quality of the current story, but I’m going to wait for the last chapter of the book before I judge it.

A game with the extreme reliance on RNG and gambling boxes that this has is not one where the devs display a lot of care about the players.

Are you kidding me? This post must be satirical. On the off chance it’s not, I highly suggest you play any other MMO before ever opening your mouth about one again. "extreme reliance on RNG?’ I literally laughed.

(edited by Toroxus.9256)

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Posted by: Vick.6805

Vick.6805

I think the “60 years later…” cartoon and its caption says it all.

…except change it to Cantha. :P

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Posted by: Mochann.5298

Mochann.5298

The problem is that ANet has stated in many interviews in the past that while “They have not written off the possiblity of an expansion” they have said that they like Living World and want to focus on Living World, and that Living World for them does take the place of an expansion because they can do stuff like add new weapons or skills or classes with Living World if the time was ripe to do so. They also said that any balance issues can be fixed by doing those abominable trait revisions that they just love to do (but which just break stuff really for the most part).

I don’t have the link but pretty sure Anet’s dev leads have said at some point that Living World was a viable way to keep new content coming instead of a full expansion.

I wouldn’t hold my breath for a real expansion any time soon, ANet is too invested in the Living World story arc they’re currently doing right now to even begin to work on an expansion. I don’t buy this “there’s a team behind the scenes working on an expansion” rub.

#ELEtism on Eredon Terrace

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Posted by: Mochann.5298

Mochann.5298

The article stated that only one zone has been added and nobody visits it regularly. Well that’s partly false considering that karka queen is done numerous times each day and you have the node farmers. They also ignored that the majority of zones are just as empty as well unless there’s some world boss event going on.

I don’t think an expansion will really keep people busy. All of the “hardcore” players that are instantly bored after rushing through every new update will be bored within a month of the expansion’s release.

Perhaps, but that’s how “hardcore” players are, and they are the outliers and not the norm. A “real” expansion would have something like this:

  • 3 new character classes
  • an expansion story after killing Zhaitan that would add about 1/2 the length of the original Personal Story to the existing story
  • new named exotics, Ascendeds and even Legendaries — maybe Legendary Armor
  • A buttload of new skills
  • half a dozen new areas on the map, including the Tengu empire beyond the gate

And if I’m lucky, we’d also get:

  • A major change to the current skill and trait system, like letting you slot in weapon-specific skills into your weapons instead of having hard-coded weapons
  • additional traitlines per class, along with increasing trait point cap to 100 or more
  • New playable race – those tengu birdmen
  • a story where Trehearne gets mauled by two she-bears

Give us an expansion like this, and we’d get tons of hours of gameplay content. Aside from buying the expansion, many players would likely also buy new character slots to play the new classes (hello! Gemstore sales!)

It would be great!

The only problem is — Anet has no time to do this, because they are too busy doing Living World. Imagine, if Anet had not been doing these kitten living world contents for the past year, we may have had an expansion like this by now.

#ELEtism on Eredon Terrace

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Posted by: MastaNeenja.1537

MastaNeenja.1537

The reason why I say I’m uncertain if it will matter is that they have a business to run and profit to make. They are going to choose which ever method will make the most money and that’s understandable from a business perspective. I’m sure they care about the game and it’s customers

A game with the extreme reliance on RNG and gambling boxes that this has is not one where the devs display a lot of care about the players.

I frown on your half quoting. I hate RNG as much as the next player Dragon Bash was just awful for it. But enough players keep clicking boxes and buying keys to turn a profit otherwise they wouldn’t have given us a new set of weapons every other month this year. Fused, Dreamthistle, Blood and Madness, Zodiac, Sclerite, Aetherized, and Jade. That’s 7 weapon sets, I’m sure they’ve got metrics to back up the number of people throwing money at them when they put out a new set. So money talks, and they are going to please the most players that they possibly can because they have a business to run. Think of it this way, buying the game gets you entrance to the club, buying gems puts you in the VIP section. The VIP section will always take priority over people that only paid the cover charge. The game has to stay afloat it’s either this or a monthly subscription for now.

Do I play the RNG game? No, I bought 5 black lion keys once and immediately regretted that decision.

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Posted by: Sarrs.4831

Sarrs.4831

“Not only are we not getting a good amount of content that keeps us interested more then a few hours (in which we finish it)…but it’s also temporary.”

Why are bothered that it is going if you’ve lost interest in it? Most of the good repeatable content has stayed (or will be seasonal) and all the one-off content has gone.

The big problem with it is that MMOs are marathons, not sprints. If a piece of content is permanent rather than temporary, it pays dividends until the game dies. This is just made more pertinent by the game itself having systems that enable, and strongly reward, going into zones and events that are beneath your level.

The game’s been out for about 15 months, and the amount of permanent content put out is not that impressive- Even if everything added was permanent content, it still might not be that impressive. But 15 months is not the timeframe that we’re looking at; what about in 5 years? A decade? WoW’s highest population was 3-5 years after release, IIRC.

Nalhadia – Kaineng