Guild Wars 2

Greetings and salutations.

With Season 1 of the Living Story drawing to a close, it seems appropriate to offer review and reflection of everything that has come thus far. Sadly, there is much to consider, as the brand new path trod by Anet has many missteps and mishaps along the way.

Rather than talk about individual flaws, I thought it might be best to take a stab at the overall writing style of the Living Story and the narrative flaws it continues to exhibit. Plot holes come and go, individual complaints will always remain, but the best way to help Season 2 is to consider the pitfalls of Season 1 from a writing and gaming perspective. And so, I thought I would offer up a bit of constructive criticism in silly infographic format.

For your consideration, Fifteen Lessons From Fifteen Months of Scarlet Briar.

By the 6 gods this is a really good post, it’s really well done. I agree on almost all of them except for #14 you are mentioned quite alot nowdays. If you go to LA you name is mentioned alot on posters and people know you killed scarlet. think it was well balanced in the last patch, i believe that mentioning the player’s character even more will only effect the game in a negative way. #8 is also a bit strange, becasue the other races like the tengu and largos have nothing to do with scarlet they have their own prolems at the moment. But i fully agree on the other tips

I agree, this is an excellent post. Anet (and its writers in particular) would do well to pay very close attention to the issues raised here. I wish they could have listened to player feedback more carefully while the Living Story was still in progress. I can’t help but feel that much of the time, Anet’s singleminded pursuit of its own artistic vision comes at the expense of enjoyable narratives and quality gameplay. Having a story in mind is great, but if you want to reach a large audience and draw in more players, you have to make compromises and give them what they want. Neglecting to do so leads to the type of response that we’ve seen from the community thus far. Are some people overreacting and complaining about things that aren’t that significant? Absolutely. But the sheer volume of criticism—and largely valid criticism at that—should have prompted changes long ago. I hope that when and if Anet releases LS Season 2, it will have taken the time to address the vast majority, if not all, of the flaws we’ve pointed out in the last year and a half and won’t create more grievances for the community.

They should have made your absolutely incredible storyline a reality shrike. I still get goosebumps thinking of that epicness.

A lot of good advice there in terms of the story.

Another important aspect to remember is story telling in a video game, which introduces its own unique challenges. ANet has improved a lot since the beginning of LW, but they haven’t really cracked it yet. There a few interesting videos on video game narrative over at http://extra-credits.net/ (should probably link the videos themselves and not the site, but they’ve overall got a lot of good content). Some of your points might in part be as a result of ANet not fully knowing how this new LW concept can be used to convey a story.

It’s my hope that Scarlet was only a test run, that they’re taking everything they’ve learned from her arch and reapplying it to season 2.

Was a bit small to read, but #9 stands out for me as a major bugbear. It’s a flaw in so many films and TV series these days as well.

Some interesting points made in these tips. The key is realising that this is a different medium to a TV series. Trying to copy “your favourite TV show” is madness, because the principles are different and the timescale shorter. Look at HHGTG. It is different in radio, tv, book and film form. I’ve enjoyed all 4, but each were adapted completely differently into a way that worked for each format.

Shut up and take my +1

Hopefully Anet reads this and takes it seriously as it brings up a lot of important points while also being constructive. While all are good points, #10 stood out for me the most as LS1 lingered on for far too long, leaving less time for more stories to be fleshed out and brought to us (Realistically, for how long do we expect GW2’s lifetime to last. There are still at least 4 Elder dragons remaining and since the theme of GW2 is the rise of the Elder Dragons it would make most sense for us to experience them all before any future sequels). I think, in the future, Anet should consider condensing their story arcs a bit more.

I do not see a +2 button, but if I saw a +2 button on your post, my mouse would be all over it.

By ogden’s hammer, what savings!

hahaha, that made me laugh more than it should have.

#14

You do have dialogue with the NPCs. It just isn’t voiced.

And whatever they do, I REALLY hope they don’t reintroduce the marionette shows from the Personal Story.

great post. Hope devs will accept such constructive criticism and move forward accordingly. Bravo!

Excellent post Shriketalon. Superb.

While there is humor in your post, you managed to make very, very astute, well thought out points. Most importantly for Anet your points were made constructively.

Agree 100% with the entire thing.

Well done.

I hope ArenaNet hires Shriketalon. He understands (most of) the flaws in the Living Story.

I simply can’t fathom why ArenaNet’s neglecting the story/characters/dialogue so much. In some ways this game is absolutely stellar… they’ve built a massive world with beautiful graphics. I’m notoriously bad at jumping…. I always fall to my death at any Vista/guild puzzle, but I still do them, and not just for the achievement. I enjoy exploring and viewing the graphics and artwork. Why’s there such a glaring difference in quality between the writing and the rest of the game? Do they have the same people who write code doing the story? I just don’t know.

This is an awesome critique. I agree with every point.

I’m no video game developer but i’ve run tabletop rpgs (like D&D) for years and the one huge lesson i’ve learned as a gamemaster/storyteller is related to that #1 point: you can’t beat around the bush trying to lead your players along with subtle hints and obscure clues with the promise of a shocking reveal down the line. It simply needs to be interesting and engaging right off the bat. It’s very easy to fall into the trap of handing out tiny morsels of info or foreshadowing without giving enough to really allow the players to infer anything relevant because you, as the writer/gamemaster, are the only one who sees the bigger picture and knows it all leads to something big.

The solution is that a threat needs to be identified early on, be meaningful to the players (characters), and evolve with the plot. Those are really the big 3 elements for this type of story, IMO. Some kind of villain needed to be presented early in the LS, they needed to do something genuinely villainous that means something to our characters, and the villain needed to develop as the plot went on. Said villain could eventually become redeemed, come into conflict with other villains (aka anti-villain/frenemy) or have a background story revealed that makes them a sympathetic figure. We didn’t really get any of that outside of some awkwardly added text windows and internet posts.

The main thing though is that they need to stop holding back and start firing the big guns. If players have to wait multiple years before getting to fight a new dragon, they’re going to stretch the patience of the playerbase thin.

I disagree with point #13. Not entirely though. You see, game designers are constantly trying to push the boundaries of what a game is and where is the game space. Personally, I think articles on an official site is well within limits, as long as players are made aware of this. So in my opinion, the short stories on the official web site are part of the game space. However, you don’t. So I agree that the information should be in the game, but I disagree with you on what “in the game” means.

Nicely put and made with allot of care, OP. +1

However, there are several things I disagree with. For example I’d like that player character is moved back completely and serve as a witness (or a grunt) to the events, especially considering the complexities and effort of making PC into one of the main protagonists, but I’m sure my opinion is in minority (and even devs stated they’ll strive to improve communication between PC and NPCs), so instead I’d be content if ANet put more time in exploring the ways to improve that part of LS… and fast… because those scenes in Aftermath made me literary sweat from awkwardness (partly from implementation partly because of feeling they were forced)..

As far as LS in general, I’m getting the feeling that dev team had allot of side projects working simultaneously and that, while they did know in general where they wanted to go with the story, there was allot of disconnect between releases. Granted, they did experiment allot and they did drastically improve, but I hope that teams have better communication for season 2 from the get go, which IMHO should result in much smoother presentation, less reliance on outside sources and overall better quality of the story arc.
my2cents

Best post I’ve seen on these forums.

That was one awesome post. Thank you. I hope it reaches the right eyes at ANet.

I have to agree with pretty much everyone posting, this is great.
Please Anet, Please read this!!
(I’m sure you’ve gone over a lot of these points internally already, but … Please! :P)

There is a term for what the writing was in season one.

I’m not a big fan of shelling out money for people to ‘learn on the job’ when it comes to a task like writing.

Lol @ Lesson #3 example :
" Accusation of ineptitude of heroic ideal and vague hint towards true parentage!"
" Scream of horrific realization!"

Someone please give OP a medal!

I support the OP!

Thank you for the kind words and constructive criticism thus far, it is appreciated.

Tom Gore.4035:

#14

You do have dialogue with the NPCs. It just isn’t voiced.

Indeed, but the problem is the weight we hold in the story. With so much of the narrative driven by those cutscenes of dialogue, our character’s silence sequesters us away from being a driving force behind the action. Right now, characters keep referring to us as a part of the team and an honored friend, but the bulk of the story content’s cutscenes treat us as a common flunkie on the side bench.

For Dwayna’s delightful derriere’s sake, Frostbite has more spoken dialogue than we do! We’re not even in Snarf territory, and if we weren’t paying customers I’d but us front and center on the “dies horribly in the first act” category of minions.

Freeelancer.2860:

Nicely put and made with allot of care, OP. +1

However, there are several things I disagree with. For example I’d like that player character is moved back completely and serve as a witness (or a grunt) to the events, especially considering the complexities and effort of making PC into one of the main protagonists, but I’m sure my opinion is in minority (and even devs stated they’ll strive to improve communication between PC and NPCs), so instead I’d be content if ANet put more time in exploring the ways to improve that part of LS… and fast… because those scenes in Aftermath made me literary sweat from awkwardness (partly from implementation partly because of feeling they were forced)..

Perhaps, perhaps. However, we’re currently caught up in a weird situation where we are included as a valued member of the Scooby Gang, constantly interacting with them throughout the latter half of the Season. This is a very odd dynamic for a silent character with no major story impetus, and further highlights our lack of voice.

If they had a much broader cast and we bounced around from tale to tale, silence would suit us just fine. But to be “good friends” with five companions to the point of being included in their little guild without getting a single word in edgewise is very jarring.

DarcShriek.5829:

I disagree with point #13. Not entirely though. You see, game designers are constantly trying to push the boundaries of what a game is and where is the game space. Personally, I think articles on an official site is well within limits, as long as players are made aware of this.

To clarify point #13, the articles such as What Scarlet Saw aren’t the bone I am particularly picking here. I’m more irritated with things like this thread. The short version is that it is Angel McCoy giving the entire list of reasons why every race in Scarlet’s alliance works for her and continues to do so. While I don’t think that all of them fit (and I’d really like to see an explanation for how Scarlet found krait obelisks in the first place), it is a decent attempt to explain the motivations of each factions and what they get out of the entire endeavor. I would normally have kudos for such an effort, but there’s one major problem.

None of those cultural trends are part of the story Anet wrote. There is no discussion among Flame Legionnaires about why they are sticking with the band, Krait dialogue about a transformative experience, or anything else but blind obedience. It does not matter if the author knows the answer to a major plot hole. If they fail to address it in the story, that hole forms a massive blemish in the grand tale’s tapestry regardless of intent or introspection. As written, none of the alliances present any compelling reason why they stick with Scarlet Briar until the end, and the story they delivered is worse off as a result.

The mark of a brilliant artist is not the ideas they conceive in their minds. Everyone has ideas, many of them amazing and magnificent. An artist excels at their craft by incarnating those ideas in the reality we all share, creating art that expresses those brilliant concepts and sharing them with others. It does not matter if the writers have good ideas, they have to make them part of the story for them to have any merit.

Words unwritten tell no tales.

Shriketalon.1937 does it again! If anyone here has not read his ideas on PS/LS, you need to go to those old posts and +1 them so Anet notices. Seriously, Mike O’Brien needs to give Shriketalon.1937 a job at Anet.

You wouldn’t, by chance, happen to be a writer in need of a job would you? Because I’m sure that for you, arenanet would be hiring… or at least they are in my dreams.

I’m referring to his post here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/livingworld/lwd/To-Merge-the-Personal-and-Living-Stories/first

If you haven’t read it, please do! Some excellent humor there, as well. And the best Scarlet meme you’ll ever see.

By Ogden’s Hammer, what ravings!

/standingovation

Bravo, Shriketalon. Bravo.

Shriketalon.1937:

Indeed, but the problem is the weight we hold in the story. With so much of the narrative driven by those cutscenes of dialogue, our character’s silence sequesters us away from being a driving force behind the action. Right now, characters keep referring to us as a part of the team and an honored friend, but the bulk of the story content’s cutscenes treat us as a common flunkie on the side bench.

For Dwayna’s delightful derriere’s sake, Frostbite has more spoken dialogue than we do! We’re not even in Snarf territory, and if we weren’t paying customers I’d but us front and center on the “dies horribly in the first act” category of minions.

True, but if we are talking about storytelling “plotholes”, what could be more immersion-breaking than lifting the player on a pedestal, with 2 million other players? That would be one helluva crowded pedestal. This is a problem with MMOs and while I agree with you that ANet dug this “personal story” hole for themselves, I think it’s good that they are now steering a bit off that course – or at least I hope so. In my opinion, in MMOs the players should always be just that – a side character who helps the heroes get the job done. Otherwise it makes absolutely no sense having 2 million “main characters” in the story.

And we could of course argue that even the personal story wasn’t about our characters that much. It was about your mentor, the order representative and Trehearne. Making a believable single players story in an MMO is a road to ruin and should be abandoned. If the players want personal stories give them the tools and incentive to write those themselves.

That is an exceptionally good post Shriketalon.

+1

Just had to log in to give you +1.
Great post addressing the important points in what went wrong and what could be done better.

Wow! just wow… nearly every point stuck a chord with me. Which is alarming since you you are highlighting so many reasons why the Scarlet story was so poorly written. This looks like a lesson in fantasy writing 101, so why did the writers make so many glaring rookie mistakes?

Logging in to give a +1. Not only does it make some great points, it was also very educational (me wanting to write a fantasy novel that is).

Really love that post. it mostly sums up my experience with the story.
also: +1 for brass buttocks…

On the other hand i would add an extra point:
Do not cut storypieces

We had several installments where the story just cut off and was continued in the part after it.
In the Tower of Nightmares we defeated the false god and then they apearently sat there and pumped toxin for two weeks without explanation.
Then we got the little outro with the riddle and the cutszene the next patch…
In the Battle of Lions Arch we defeated Scarlet, ran out and… that`s it. We got some celebration with a cheesy 90s comedy feel as an outro the next week, but that`s it… again.
It felt like an unnessary cliffhanger, cutting off the narrative midway and jumping a few szenes.
Ease us out and give us something to anticipate for the next release.
Just adding some new lines to the NPCs, who are at the same locations as before does not give us a feeling of closure or anticipation.
It is just a grinding halt…

As a writer myself, I’m taking note. This sums everything up incredibly well done; you hit the nail on the head with Ogden’s hammer.

Perhaps the biggest problem you noticed about Scarlet, is the fact she never interacts with anyone…

I will admit though, she did have two very memorable commanders, though: Mai Trin and First Mate Horrik

By Ogden’s Hammer, what phrasings!

+9001 for you.

This is everything that I complained about and then some put in funnies and lol’s. Especially number 3. and 7. and 9. and 10. and 14…

Plus 9000. Carry on good sir.

Kain Francois.4328:

As a writer myself, I’m taking note. This sums everything up incredibly well done; you hit the nail on the head with Ogden’s hammer.

Perhaps the biggest problem you noticed about Scarlet, is the fact she never interacts with anyone…

I will admit though, she did have two very memorable commanders, though: Mai Trin and First Mate Horrik

agree with you about Mai Trin and mate Horrik they were well done, and gave us some perspective about Scarlet, but there were still to less commanders.

Btw Mai Trin is still somewhere hiding, after she escaped we never heard from her again

Kain Francois.4328:

I will admit though, she did have two very memorable commanders, though: Mai Trin and First Mate Horrik

“Very Memorable” – not at all.

Memorable? Mai Trin maybe but certainly not First Mate Horrik (didn’t actually realise that was his name)

Mai Trin really bugged me, when you defeat her she says “I’ll tell you everything!” now I’m thinking good! we are finally going to learn something and get some answers. Then when you go to visit her in jail she says “I’m not telling you anything!” omg Anet what are you playing at!?

and that was pretty much the total interaction you had with a major character. Pathetic!

You guys do know that Lord of the Rings broke a lot of these rules. Just setting forth a set of things that you think make for interesting story telling doesn’t necessarily mean that anything that doesn’t adhere to them will be bad.

Cormac.3871:

You guys do know that Lord of the Rings broke a lot of these rules. Just setting forth a set of things that you think make for interesting story telling doesn’t necessarily mean that anything that doesn’t adhere to them will be bad.

Really? what rules did it break?

Even The Lord of the Rings didn’t go full Shyamalan.

You never go full Shyamalan!

+1 for a brilliant, funny and engaging critique.

Thobek.1730:

Cormac.3871:

You guys do know that Lord of the Rings broke a lot of these rules. Just setting forth a set of things that you think make for interesting story telling doesn’t necessarily mean that anything that doesn’t adhere to them will be bad.

Really? what rules did it break?

Not having an enemy whose power level is over 9000. Knowing very few of the enemies henchmen. Not seeing any character development of the enemy.

In all fairness, the trilogy was a great (a truly epic) world and a rather mediocre book.

apply now at arena.net and write our living story >:(

You sir, have me in stitches, I LOVE THIS XD
In seriousness, best post to date.

I would also apply a few things:

- We did see Mai Trin albeit an almost non existent secondary antagonist make a few minor appearances in earlier content so there’s that if you really need some kind of Scarlet Lieutenant, though indeed, her role was very short.
- We also had Canach but… cricket noises everyone remembers him so well.

Other than that, I entirely agree with every point made, in seriousness, to not hire this player or some of the more constructive critics into a “feedback” team for the writers would be an injustice.

We need feedback players, people who can criticize an IDEA before it even comes into fruition, because those who can, can provide excellent feedback on points that may be needed to be touched upon.

I advise the possible creation of an NDA obligated team who are specially chosen to act as the shepherds for good future content in the game, not necessarily some elite group of egotistic narcissists but rather, a group that have actual experience in writing, role playing, dungeon mastering, ultimately have a passion for actual content lore writing and want to see the universe thrive, without necessarily writing any of it themselves.

I am referring to readers, people who read what you have to say before you actually say it, and tell you if its good, bad, or if there’s something else you could add, or a detail you might have missed.

This, is what A-net needs, people like Shrike, Wooden Potatoes, people who can be obligated under an NDA contract, to point out “maybe you should add this content with this instead. . .”

Insert points here.

I say, think of it like having beta testers, that test not the actual game but rather the story itself, giving a chance for refined plot design in the game to work effectively.

Advantages to this:

1. Its free.
2. Its community interaction, without the community knowing it.
3. It shows A-net actually cares about what refined individuals may actually have to say about the future of the game and how best to keep it and sharpen in a way that is favorable to a large majority of players who, surprisingly enough, actually care about every minor detail of the lore.

While I myself am not the most versed denizen of Tyria, its people like Wooden Potatoes that made me wiki every last article and start exploring every last micro depth for those little snippets of particular topical parts I myself find fascinating to the universe.

Others, who have FAR greater levels of broad understanding, will likely be more viable and better suited to criticizing it because they are actual players of both 1 and 2, who know what inconsistencies to avoid, and how best to refine them.

Consider it, A-net, its not a bad idea.

Tom Gore.4035:

True, but if we are talking about storytelling “plotholes”, what could be more immersion-breaking than lifting the player on a pedestal, with 2 million other players? That would be one helluva crowded pedestal. This is a problem with MMOs and while I agree with you that ANet dug this “personal story” hole for themselves, I think it’s good that they are now steering a bit off that course – or at least I hope so. In my opinion, in MMOs the players should always be just that – a side character who helps the heroes get the job done. Otherwise it makes absolutely no sense having 2 million “main characters” in the story.

Hmm, perhaps there is a compromise to be made. I think you make a very fair point, but there is still something to be said for letting the player feel like a mover and shaker of the world.

If they focused less on a single group of characters such as the current Scooby Gang and let the player meet and interact with many heroes in many smaller stories, they could combine it with a few Personal Story missions that allow the main characters to get their time in the spotlight. A journey home would be an excellent start, returning the player to their city of origin as a triumphant hero, and all the horrible guilt-tripped jobs that entails. Likewise, more Order storylines would be an interesting way to delve into new tales. The Living Story could spend its time allowing Tyria to grow and thrive, and a few segments of Personal Story per year could let the player keep center stage in their own saga.

panzer.6034:

I’m no video game developer but i’ve run tabletop rpgs (like D&D) for years and the one huge lesson i’ve learned as a gamemaster/storyteller is related to that #1 point: you can’t beat around the bush trying to lead your players along with subtle hints and obscure clues with the promise of a shocking reveal down the line. It simply needs to be interesting and engaging right off the bat. It’s very easy to fall into the trap of handing out tiny morsels of info or foreshadowing without giving enough to really allow the players to infer anything relevant because you, as the writer/gamemaster, are the only one who sees the bigger picture and knows it all leads to something big.

Well said. One should never take the audience’s attention for granted, and the initial hook should be baited with the juiciest intrigue possible. Tyria is full of amazing story potential, and any new tale is directly competing with all those exciting possibilities for the players’ attention. Hook ’em early, and reel ’em in.

iplayBANJO.9543:

You wouldn’t, by chance, happen to be a writer in need of a job would you?

I’m actually a geologist. Stories are just my passionate hobby in all their forms, be it reading books, paging through webcomics, listening to short story podcasts, engaging in tabletop RPGs, or binge watching television series. It just seemed like a better thing to use as a constructive criticism avenue than “Shriketalon Reviews Tyrian Geology. Today’s Episode: Southsun Cove’s Travertine Deposits.”

But thank you for the compliment.

Cormac.3871:

You guys do know that Lord of the Rings broke a lot of these rules. Just setting forth a set of things that you think make for interesting story telling doesn’t necessarily mean that anything that doesn’t adhere to them will be bad.

These narrative lessons are more what you’d call guidelines than actual rules.

There are many different kinds of stories, and a golden rule for one may be a preposterous pyrite for another. For example, Lord of the Rings faced the heroes off against an Ancient Doom sort of opponent, an opponent who is more metaphor than flesh and blood, the living embodiment of doom for their entire world. The struggle against The End is not necessarily meant to have a human component to the harbinger of ragnarok. But by choosing to make the corruption of Scarlet’s mind a key component of the plot, Arenanet chose a more personable sort of antagonist and must be reviewed accordingly. A more metaphysical opponent such as Sauron requires a different set of standards, as do living hurricanes such as the Elder Dragons. There are many different paths to brilliant characterization, for all that is gold does not glitter, and not all who wander are lost.

Shriketalon.1937:

Hmm, perhaps there is a compromise to be made. I think you make a very fair point, but there is still something to be said for letting the player feel like a mover and shaker of the world.

If they focused less on a single group of characters such as the current Scooby Gang and let the player meet and interact with many heroes in many smaller stories, they could combine it with a few Personal Story missions that allow the main characters to get their time in the spotlight. A journey home would be an excellent start, returning the player to their city of origin as a triumphant hero, and all the horrible guilt-tripped jobs that entails. Likewise, more Order storylines would be an interesting way to delve into new tales. The Living Story could spend its time allowing Tyria to grow and thrive, and a few segments of Personal Story per year could let the player keep center stage in their own saga.

It could be done, but as you said yourself, it would be a compromise. Personally, I would rather abolish any semblance of “personal story” from MMOs altogether and leave them for single player RPGs where they not only make much more sense, but are also much easier to implement.

In MMOs, the players should be given tools and systems to create their own stories, with the other players, not independent of them. Those stories would truly be “personal” and belong just to the players who would participate in crafting them.

But I guess that’s a topic for another discussion and steers too close to the ever present sandbox vs. themepark debate.