Guild Wars 2

BobbyStein.2315:

Part of the development process is prioritization, so I’d like to know what you feel are the highest impact items you think would improve our storytelling delivery. What are your top three requests?

1. Presentation
Everything we need to know regarding the plot, back story, and characters should always be presented in game. And it needs to be presented in a natural, organic manner. Letters delivered to our in-boxes isn’t exactly compelling exposition.

2. Pacing
If we’re only getting bite-sized story progression once every two weeks, we’re going to lose focus, and possibly interest, on the plot. If it takes us six month to learn who the villain is and another six months to learn their plan, that’s a lot of time spent going nowhere.

3. Make it Personal
My biggest complaint is that my character is essentially a background character with regards to the world of Tyria. There’s nothing to make it personal. I don’t like being a silent protagonist. I don’t like having no impact. I’m essentially an errand boy in the Living Story. I go here, kill this; go there, kill that. But that’s it. The “you saved the day”s showered upon me are empty attempts to make me feel involved, but it doesn’t work.

I’d like to see the Living Story deliver content of the same quality as the Personal Story. And right now, the two week release schedule means too many corners are cut. If the two week release schedule doesn’t allow enough time to hire the voice actors to give voice to our characters, then adjust the release schedule. If the two week release schedule doesn’t afford the writers enough time to personalize the story with different races and/or personalities (an untapped potential), then adjust the release schedule.

Dragon Age 2 is story wise a better game than Dragon Age 1. Boom, son!

Yes, did Dragon Age 2 have a daft cliffhanger ending with no satisfying conclusion? No doubt. Was the entire second half of the game with the fight between templars and mages wonky and rushed? Yes. Was the game’s depth and re-use of assets a big distraction from the narrative threads? Yup.

However. What Dragon Age 2 did well actually made it better than Dragon Age 1 in terms of story. Dragon Age 1 tells a story of saving the world. Not only saving the world, but also that the player is a chosen one with larger-than life skills. Same thing in games like Skyrim. In fact, this is the case in many games.

This is so uninteresting and boring. It’s not relateable and we have seen it a hundred times.

Dragon Age 2, you play a dude/girl who is just a person in this world. Who plays a role but is not Son Goku lvl 9000. That adds immersion. That adds believeability and immersion. Like Game of Thrones, you watch because characters really can die any moment. You don’t give a darn if your guys are invincible.

That is why the entire Destiny’s Edge crew needs to die. Nobody will miss them. To give them a powerful death would add so much to peoples rememberance of the game. Then make new characters. different characters. Nobody has this great attachments to these guys. Wonder why Tybalt is the best character in GW2? BECAUSE HE DIED. That makes sense in the grand scheme of things.

Anyway, in Dragon Age 2 – what you got in that game that worked really well was a great cast of characters. You got the most untraditional Dwarf I have ever seen in a fantasy setting. No beard, no irish/scottish accent, not drunk, very smart and cunning. He defied a lot of the stereotypes about dwarfs, and because of that he worked great.

Why could Logan not have been more interesting? Why was he such a carved tootsie-goodie hero. That guy should have a gazillion flaws. Even if he was a woman beater who smacked Queen Jennah around, he could still have been a much better anti-hero than the roll-eyes guy we have before us today. They played up the entire snarff thing so much, but it felt like an episode of beverly hills. Nobody cares. people die when they fight dragons, and these so-called champions biggering like schoolgirls just killed it. It ruined it. There is this 5-10 minute cut scenes around lvl 30-40 in Lions Arch were the destiny edge crew meets and argues for the first time. No story involvement – no expousure, no sub plots resolved, no questions answered, no interest gained. It was the most horrible contrived piece of fanfiction I have ever seen. It did nothing and it was terrible, and it needs to go away.
The entire snarff subplot needs to be cut.

What we need now is the witcher 2 / Mass effect 2 way of doing things. focus on the characters. make cool new characters you save during your travels. be able to visit and talk to them in your home instance. gain followers who will spice up your personal home instance. react to the choices you made, have something new to say every week. normal character professions. bakers, bankers, street sweepers, bards, clergies, monks, majong playing canthaniasians. my god.

It’s the characters. The elder dragons are just the stage. all players know that you can just add as many dragons to the world as you want. there will always be bad guys. But we wont care unless you make us care about those pixel people you model, skin, animate and voice in your game. That’s what witcher 2/mass effect 2 does so well. Great unique, funny, interesting characters.

I believe in you ArenaNet. Living story season 1 shows how much you improved. I was actually satisfied by the last ending shot of the dragon awakening. Thats a good starter for an expansion. Unfortunately, even though the storytelling got much better towards the end (and the fracal of the mist update art cinematic showing potential for future storytelling tools) we had a lot of shoddy story updates.
Scarlett was not. It was not just her story, motivation, writing. Her design was really subpar as well. I think you guys got the best of the design spec you approved but darn. We have a long way to go.

Sad Swordfish.9743:

Dragon Age 2 is story wise a better game than Dragon Age 1.

That is highly subjective, you may personally found it better, that does not make it fact. The story to Dragon Age 2 bored me to absolute tears, the characters were all unlikable and the choices meaningless. Origins on the other hand had an engrossing story, wonderful, likable and unique characters, the entire game was riveting.

Arena Net are in no way as bad as the current Bioware (DA2/ME3) but the living story is very far from the best writing Guild Wars has ever had. A lot needs to change as the Living Story is such a let down in so many way, especially the various characterizations and overall story.

I really hope Arena Net takes the op’s post to heart.

BobbyStein.2315:

Part of the development process is prioritization, so I’d like to know what you feel are the highest impact items you think would improve our storytelling delivery. What are your top three requests?

1. Decide, once and for all, when the Living Story is. Personally, I think it should be definitively set after Zhaitan and just warn newer players that they will be assumed to have completed the personal story. While I’m not saying spoil the whole ending for them, just place them at the head of the Pact and have them seem like they know what they’re talking about. You can even go so far as to say that the Personal Story is within a time-bubble which is set before the Living Story, not within the timeline that the Player him/herself plays it in. This adds more dialogue and character to our own characters
2. Add some complexity and structure to how magic works, maybe give a few interesting facts from magic-users that points towards certain rules of magic or perhaps how it is acquired in the first place. Like, why are there necromancers and mesmers and elementalists and no mixed necromesmers or elemesmancers or whatnot. Even to how dragon energy and chaos energy are different versions of magic. Are they like different magical particles, or magic energy on different wavelengths?
3. More side characters with character that can be brought into the story when relevant. Don’t force yourself to work with what you have or to be forced to create a new character on the spot, just add a variety of different characters to give yourself some ammunition preemptively. I recommend shining some light of epic-ness on these minor characters once in a while, like a set of sub-iconics that do their own thing until it actually corresponds with what you’re doing, in which case you can just add them in to give more flavor to the story than having them be an essential person to the plot from the get-go.

There are six types of magic. The mixing of professions is not convenient as it is really hard to master even one type of magic. If someone, for example, pursued death magic and elemental magic, he would end up pretty lame in both. This is the official explanation I think, but it still doesn’t explain why there were mixed professions in GW1 (even though I mixed my necro with monk, I don’t think I actually used some of his magic..mostly because skills from EOTN reputation were far better.)

+1 OP, great post, but I actually disagree with the criticism of GW’s magic. Different fantasies treat it differently, and in GW’s case it is treated differently by different races, for example, for humans it is a gift from the gods, while (even though the humans belief is historically accurate) for the asura it is just a natural force to be tampered with, like electricity. Scarlet – allegedly – learned from the asura, so it is understandable that for her it was but a source of power for machines and weapons.

Aedelric.1287:

That is highly subjective, you may personally found it better, that does not make it fact. The story to Dragon Age 2 bored me to absolute tears, the characters were all unlikable and the choices meaningless. Origins on the other hand had an engrossing story, wonderful, likable and unique characters, the entire game was riveting.

Arena Net are in no way as bad as the current Bioware (DA2/ME3) but the living story is very far from the best writing Guild Wars has ever had. A lot needs to change as the Living Story is such a let down in so many way, especially the various characterizations and overall story.

I really hope Arena Net takes the op’s post to heart.

I wont take this topic off its roots of pointing out how to improve a story but I do have to point out that when it comes to plot, Origins was as ripped off LOTR/Warcraft/Every-Generic-Fantasy-Ever-Written as you could get.

2 actually had originality over 1, its concept didn’t entirely pay off but who ever wrote it wanted to break a lot of stereotypes by challenging them and using old traditions on a new spin, which worked nicely and from another side of the coin, id argue, it gave a lot more personality to your companions than origins did, which gave you “the” most generic cast of predictable cliches you could band together.

Comparing Origins to 2 isn’t really fair since Origins itself wasn’t loved by those of us who read the novels before even playing the game. It portrayed Loghain inaccurately to his personality in the novels while giving him the appropriate voice actor for the task. Duncan too, who went from being overly adventurous in the calling to some really bland stereotype in Origins.

In Origins we had:
- Generic Witch with mysterious evil origins who totally isn’t evil in any way despite every sign in 500 yards pointing to her intentions being blatantly narcissistic.
- Generic Paladin guy who was likeable (Alistair was my favorite by a long shot) who had a noble personality but incredibly cliche one, Ive seen this guy in many fantasy games and books before now.
- A drunk dwarf, oh how surprising.
- A silent bad kitten (my favorite, Sten ftw) though his lack of personality made him as intractable as a brick.
- A bisexual Elf, oh what a surprise.
- A bisexual french spy, oh what a surprise.
- An old woman that knows just about everything and is seemingly the voice of reason in the party, hmm, wonder where we’ve seen that 50000 times before?
- A living stone construct with a minor personality, but not enough to make it anything more than an angry robot.
- And if you spared Loghain, a broody former antagonist who was evil for the sake of… being evil?

Now compare that to 2.

- A bi curious wizard with schizophrenia problems and demonic possession.
- A zealous Scottish paladin archer who basically is so puritanical that you cant budge him an inch without him screaming “mages are bad, really, really bad”.
- A freaking Qunari Elf (Granted Felica Day’s cameo was little more than just that but it was still awesome) Its a freaking Qunari, Elf.
- A beardless dwarf with enough sass to turn Kirkwall into his own personal Playboy Mansion.
- A blacksmith turned guards woman who had moral dilemma’s about moving on from her former husbands death.
- A welsh elven woman who had innocent but tragic intentions that would lead to dire consequences for her and her people.
- A playful female pirate that actually happened to be the bad guy for the most part despite her intentions being good.
- And you, the mercenary with no real great role.

DA2 had the personality and originality that Origins lacked, and with it your companions actually developed because of friendship/rivalry and choices, which they would come to bite you in the be-hind later.

Now while GW2 can never quite have character depth and RPG mechanics on that level, it isn’t too much to ask for originality, then again, we already have that, we just don’t have it developed enough.

- A disabled Asuran prodigy that has a fan interest in Scarlet.
- A lesbian couple who are everyone’s favorite shipping right now.
- A prodigy of Eir trying to make his own legend (granted, he really needs some personal char development).
- A Gladium trying to get into Rytlocks war band and then deciding she doesn’t want to be apart of it. (Which to me kind of annoyed me A LOT considering how much Roxx was so “notice me senpai” about Rytlock).

People can hate on DA2 all they want for being short, but it definitely had the more original and interesting character cast when compared to its predecessor.

Top it off with the fact there was some spectacular VA in 2 when Origins tended to fall flat on making chars sound way too unenthusiastic about situations or mechanical.

You can see why I defend it, and why I hope Gw2 is inspired by that idea to use originality in cliches rather than sticking to one dimensional tropes.

Neilos Tyrhanos.5427:

Thobek.1730:

Its not just one thing in particular its the combination of a lot of things. I don’t care that its a lesbian relationship, its the way its poorly written. When it was Caithe and Faolain I thought wow this is not the usual stuff you see in a computer game, well done Anet for breaking down the norm. Then Kas and Marjory turned up and that’s when it started getting stupid. It’s not only that I don’t like those two characters, but it doesn’t help when they constantly flirt with each other while in serious situations.

That’s a fine point, but wasn’t the one I was addressing. I was addressing how fictional straight couples are shown doing the same stuff all the time, flirting in serious situations, getting stupid, being unrealistic. And yet, whenever it’s a straight romance in question, their sexuality is never brought up. Usually nobody bats an eyelid at the

Give me an example of a straight couple in this game that flirts all the time? It might be a bit tough considering there is only ONE male lead Braham and he was rejected by Ottilia (guys don’t get much love in this game), but even when you look at the secondary support cast pick one straight couple that flirts like you said. Just one… and it doesn’t have to be all the time either. Just one straight couple with just one example of them flirting.

I cried, it was such a beautiful post.

Thobek.1730:

As for your question you really need to sit back and think about this one for yourself. Ask yourself who normally plays fantasy MMO type games? who plays PC games in general? what is the percentage of gay/lesbian people (i.e. its about 3.7% in the U.S) Then ask yourself that question again and see if you can work it out for yourself. It’s not that hard, the statistics are out there.

If you want to play a game with lore made for all the neckbeard dudebro’s out there, I encourage you to check out WoW and the Warlords of Draenor expansion. Ten or something Warlords, not a single woman among them. In general, there are only two major female lore characters that do anything at the moment, and they’re both “crazy, irrational and bordering on going evil”.

Leave the refreshing non-sexism in GW2 for those of us who are so sick of the usual sexism in video games.

Thobek.1730:

Give me an example of a straight couple in this game that flirts all the time? It might be a bit tough considering there is only ONE male lead Braham and he was rejected by Ottilia (guys don’t get much love in this game), but even when you look at the secondary support cast pick one straight couple that flirts like you said. Just one… and it doesn’t have to be all the time either. Just one straight couple with just one example of them flirting.

Logan is madly in love with Queen Jennah, making that a hetero love story (albeit somewhat one-sided). And there’s a good number of hetero couples you encounter during the storylines and out in the world, for example the Asuran couple in one of the starter storylines (1-20), and the Asuran couple later on in the personal story when you chose that your biggest regret is to let a friend die.

There’s also lots of male lore characters in the game. Rytlock, Logan, Braham, Evon Gnashblade, Trahearne, Tybalt, Forgal, Lord Faren … a game isn’t sexist just because there’s not a 100% accurate totally equal 50:50 representation of each gender. A game is sexist when there are little to none strong or important characters of a certain gender, or when they’re all portrayed in the same (clichéd) manner, etc. None of that is true for GW2.

Well done for taking over yet another thread with “omg, my sexuality is being denied”. The op wrote a fantastic post and you’re so wrapped up in making the world fit your exact balanced stereotype you missed the point of the op post. Kindly take your gender wars 2 elsewhere. Keep it on topic.

Awbee.8405:

Thobek.1730:

Give me an example of a straight couple in this game that flirts all the time? It might be a bit tough considering there is only ONE male lead Braham and he was rejected by Ottilia (guys don’t get much love in this game), but even when you look at the secondary support cast pick one straight couple that flirts like you said. Just one… and it doesn’t have to be all the time either. Just one straight couple with just one example of them flirting.

Logan is madly in love with Queen Jennah, making that a hetero love story (albeit somewhat one-sided). And there’s a good number of hetero couples you encounter during the storylines and out in the world, for example the Asuran couple in one of the starter storylines (1-20), and the Asuran couple later on in the personal story when you chose that your biggest regret is to let a friend die.

There’s also lots of male lore characters in the game. Rytlock, Logan, Braham, Evon Gnashblade, Trahearne, Tybalt, Forgal, Lord Faren … a game isn’t sexist just because there’s not a 100% accurate totally equal 50:50 representation of each gender. A game is sexist when there are little to none strong or important characters of a certain gender, or when they’re all portrayed in the same (clichéd) manner, etc. None of that is true for GW2.

Logan and Queen Jennah? That’s not flirting. He’s basically under a spell cast on him by Jennah, a magical bond.

A good number of couples? some random Asuran’s you bump into on the low level personal story. Hardly lead characters at all. There are some married farmers in queensdale as well. big deal. You’re clutching at straws..

Rytlock, Logan, Braham, Evon Gnashblade, Trahearne, Tybalt, Forgal, Lord Faren? – none of them are in a relationship. Four of them hardly even feature anymore, Two of them are dead. Good list.

Yeah please take the sexuality debate into another topic, this one is about pointing out constructive criticism not a debate as to weather men or women are equally or less represented in GW2.

ColinJohanson.2394:

Great post! Though we did a CDI to discuss Living World and covered many of these topics and concerns in there as well, I think it’s always good to stop and brainstorm and give feedback on how to improve the living world experience.

BobbyStein.2315:

I’d like to echo Colin’s sentiments. Thanks to the OP and everyone else for posting your constructive feedback here.

Thank you both for your consideration and kind words. I have always been impressed by Arenanet’s commitment to making their game better, and I hope there is some shard of wisdom amidst my many ramblings that can help in some way.

BobbyStein.2315:

Part of the development process is prioritization, so I’d like to know what you feel are the highest impact items you think would improve our storytelling delivery. What are your top three requests?

Well, if I had to distill it down from the fifteen and flesh them out….

….ask and you shall receive.

Another great post, Shrike. Just one addendum to your final picture though.

In order for that sense of drama and effort to be retained, we really need to address the issue of players turning the Living Story into “the next farm pit”. Yes, it was exciting and thrilling to try to get to 1200 civilian rescues… the first time. And maybe the next 5 times. But after that, players start going off and doing their own things. They just sit at the Mystic Plaza farming Aetherblades. Or running around hunting Heirlooms. The map gets filled with requests for help with Champions or cries of “Where’s Peter??”, but they are rarely answered. (Or worse, they get yelled at and told to come help with the Knights.)

Sad as it is, the best story moments only come when the player is in an instance (either alone, or with a few friends). Zerg fights can only take you so far, and as numbers and interest dwindle players who came late to the party often miss out.

I hope that for the next instalment in the Living Story (or its replacement) addresses these issues of accessibility and replayability. An awesome story is no fun if you’re dependent on the help of dozens of other players to reach it, or if you’re out of action for a couple weeks and, just like that, there’s now an episode in your favourite TV series you can never watch again.

Zaxares.5419:

Another great post, Shrike. Just one addendum to your final picture though.

In order for that sense of drama and effort to be retained, we really need to address the issue of players turning the Living Story into “the next farm pit”. Yes, it was exciting and thrilling to try to get to 1200 civilian rescues… the first time. And maybe the next 5 times. But after that, players start going off and doing their own things. They just sit at the Mystic Plaza farming Aetherblades. Or running around hunting Heirlooms. The map gets filled with requests for help with Champions or cries of “Where’s Peter??”, but they are rarely answered. (Or worse, they get yelled at and told to come help with the Knights.)

Sad as it is, the best story moments only come when the player is in an instance (either alone, or with a few friends). Zerg fights can only take you so far, and as numbers and interest dwindle players who came late to the party often miss out.

I hope that for the next instalment in the Living Story (or its replacement) addresses these issues of accessibility and replayability. An awesome story is no fun if you’re dependent on the help of dozens of other players to reach it, or if you’re out of action for a couple weeks and, just like that, there’s now an episode in your favourite TV series you can never watch again.

Completely agree! I wrote a post about that, actually, earlier! Heck, I didn’t even manage to face off against Scarlett because the zerg in Lion’s Arch was mostly in for the achievements, like killing the golems very fast (which they failed to do fast enought anyway). So, yeah, zerg stuff are fine, people love it, and, heck, I’d probably enjoy it myself had I fought Scarlett before. So my point is like yours: it shouldn’t get in the way of the story stuff.

BobbyStein.2315:

Part of the development process is prioritization, so I’d like to know what you feel are the highest impact items you think would improve our storytelling delivery. What are your top three requests?

These are pretty much already implemented, but I’m voicing them anyhow:

1. Using the game engine without cutscenes for dialog. I love seeing the characters chat in the open, without the need for marionette shows.

2. Making the story about NPCs with the character being the lead support. There is no other way to make it work realistically in an MMO.

3. Find a way to make the content permanent as often as possible. If you introduce a new zone, make it interesting enough so that the players will keep coming back – see Orr zones and FGS versus Southsun, for example.

My 3 points:

1) *Resolve the Personal Story/Living Story issue.* There is a chronological problem with most of the world stagnating in a limbo and trapped by it, being a requirement for the PS, and other parts evolving with the story. Its so bad there was actually a theory that the entirety of Tyria was a fractal of the mist replaying the same events over and over again.

With big things happening in the major story of each release, have smaller things go on on the other side of the world. Tequatl and SAB feels like part of a living world because they happened during the otherwise unrelated Living Story.

You dont even have to code it with new dynamic events and voice-overs. Just use the Heralds you planted in every city, at least for the first stages. They should be able to tell about major events AND smaller things if you ask.

(On a sidenote: Have a look through all the renown hearts in the game. Some play out short stories that are still on and unchanging for 2 years now. I cant take the title Living World seriously while there is a charr fixing a single wagon in Snowden Drifts since release.)

2) *Foreshadowing and Expanding.* General progression of background plots. Slightly connected to the previous point. Scarlet’s true identity felt like she jumped out of nothing with a background nobody expected, and needed a bit (or a ton) of salt to take in. There were a lot of speculations about her before the Jubilee appearence. Tip: When not even one serious theory comes even close to what you planned, you know you failed at foreshadowing. Be mindful, if someone nails the story with their theory, but the general response is mostly ’ignoring of the troll’, then the story itself wont be well-received either.

When the subplots become the actual Living Story, have parts of them look back and expand on the events that happened while it was just something irrelevent in the distance. This gives the feeling that the writers thought it all out and everything is connected, even if you had to change the story in development for whatever reason. Feel free to leave some irrelevent subplots irrelevent. If you have enoug of those, nobody will notice if a few are left out. On the other hand, it gives tons of background you can work with later for other subplots or major happenings.

3)*Notebook or Codex*. Something that keeps track of the important stuff, similar to the My Story panel, with a bit more navigation as more subplots will be coming out. For convenience sake, have it connected to an ingame lore-guide. Something that can be directly referenced and is reliable, and not an outside link to a wiki page that everybody can edit. Set clear rules of what can happen and what cannot happen lore-wise, and the archivements of the protagonists and the antagonists will be made more understandable.

Adding to Shriketalon’s new points, I agree, the Pact has to go. But not only for the reasons stated.

One of my issues with the personal story is I play it often with a friend. We can’t both be the Commander. Not everyone in Tyria can be the Commander. Players want to be recognized for being the Commander, and who can blame them? They went through an entire storyline being the Commander.

I don’t think it’s a good idea to treat the player of an MMO like they hold a unique position. Not because the player character shouldn’t be important. Far from it. The lack of involvement is one of the problems. But because the player characters, plural, should be important, and I should be able to have an adventure with my friends without choosing who is the important position holder today. It’s not that we mind trading the spotlight around. We’re friends, yo. We share all the things. But it’s immersion breaking to be sharing that particular thing.

What would have worked for me is the PC being a member of the Pact, and we could all work with the idea that all the PCs are Pact members who do various Important Jobs. That ship has sailed. It might be a disappointment to destroy the Pact, but I feel it’s a bandage that has to be ripped off to focus on other aspects of the story.

Also all that other stuff that was said about power and conflict.

ArenaNet—

Not to swerve dangerously off topic here, but if you find yourself in the position that you’re hiring new blood into your writing team, I would strongly consider exploring this ShrikeTalon person as an option.

A few strong forum posts don’t paint the full picture of someone, nor do they say anything about operating in a group dynamic, but they’re a very strong indicator that you may have someone special on your hands. I’m becoming more and more convinced that everything he’s saying thus far is on point, not just from an observational perspective, but from a borderline-unhealthy-love-for-Guild-Wars + the Skill/Talent to back it up.

+1.

Hahhahhahaha BRILLIANT!

Awbee.8405:

Thobek.1730:

As for your question you really need to sit back and think about this one for yourself. Ask yourself who normally plays fantasy MMO type games? who plays PC games in general? what is the percentage of gay/lesbian people (i.e. its about 3.7% in the U.S) Then ask yourself that question again and see if you can work it out for yourself. It’s not that hard, the statistics are out there.

If you want to play a game with lore made for all the neckbeard dudebro’s out there, I encourage you to check out WoW and the Warlords of Draenor expansion. Ten or something Warlords, not a single woman among them. In general, there are only two major female lore characters that do anything at the moment, and they’re both “crazy, irrational and bordering on going evil”.

Leave the refreshing non-sexism in GW2 for those of us who are so sick of the usual sexism in video games.

Depicting women as inconsiderate and lesbian women as “lesbians first, people second” is not refreshing and it is not un-sexist. It is still misogynistic, just in a different way. Might I remind you that powerful women have been stereotyped as cruel and domineering for millennia, and it has always been part of a masculine society’s negative views of women? Adding more cruel, domineering powerful women to the mix is not helping!

I don’t want to play a game full of dudebros. I want to play a game like GW2 was before Living Story: with strong female characters working together with male characters, not acting as their protectors while simultaneously verbally abusing them. I am a woman, and I want to play a game with women in it, NOT heavily stereotyped pieces of cardboard who are somehow “not sexist” merely by existing in greater numbers than usual. There are PLENTY of female protagonists in the Soul Calibur games… with a robust jiggle-engine for all their scantily-clad bits! According to League of Angels’s advertising, it’s all ABOUT women! Is that empowering? Metroid: Other M is about a woman— a woman who starts freezing up in battles she’s done twice before because OMG EMOTIONS I’M A WOMAN I MUST CRY! Is that empowering? Why then does the presence of women in this story mean that this story is empowering either?

I’m sorry if this argument seems to have derailed the topic… but this issue is inseparably intertwined with the character of Scarlet herself and with the entire Living Story, because it has been forced into the story in a way that damages both its original cause and the characters it affects. Kasmeer and Marjory’s personalities have both been entirely subsumed to their relationship (which is unhealthy in ANY relationship, but disastrous in such a visible example when lesbian relationships are so rarely shown with any shred of finesse in games as it is). Braham has been assigned all the negative images that used to be associated with women (excessive emotionality, needing to be rescued, being needy and excessively attached), for no apparent reason aside from “time to turn the tables on men now, bwahahah!” Rox has become Braham’s big manly hero who saves him, but then has to ride off into the sunset, leaving him behind as he cries womanly tears— a simple reversal of roles, not an alteration of the roles! This is not helpful, and it is embarrassing to women like me who actually liked how they— and therefore how WE— were depicted in this game before the giant personality shift.

This is not an off-topic issue. It lies at the very heart of what has gone so very wrong with Living Story. The assumption that “if you don’t like this (horribly written and damaging) lesbian relationship, you are a MAN and a BIGOT!” (not to mention the disturbingly growing tendency to treat “man” and “bigot” as the same word) is damaging and NOT conducive to any sort of positive change— if you keep writing every critic off as a bigot, you’re never going to take any constructive criticism, and your writing will just continue to deteriorate until the Living Story becomes so much of a political cartoon it turns into an overblown parody of itself.

EDIT TO ADD: I really do hate having to emphasize my own femininity so much, given that what gender I am should not have anything to do with the merits of what I say, but I have found that people on the “Kasmory is obviously empowering because they exist” side of the debate tend to believe that men cannot have valid, informed opinions on women’s issues. So I must, in order to placate the suspicion that I might be a dumb clueless man who can’t understand enlightened things and likes ugh-ugh caveman save pretty woman stories, make a big deal about what bits I have.

ANET WRITERS: Please see my forum post "Tension, Conflict, and other things the LS needs (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/livingworld/lwd/Tension-Conflict-and-other-things-LS-Needs/first#post3837684) for links regarding writing as well as additional comments about writing the LS.

Zaxares.5419:

Another great post, Shrike. :) Just one addendum to your final picture though.

In order for that sense of drama and effort to be retained, we really need to address the issue of players turning the Living Story into “the next farm pit”. Yes, it was exciting and thrilling to try to get to 1200 civilian rescues… the first time. And maybe the next 5 times. But after that, players start going off and doing their own things. They just sit at the Mystic Plaza farming Aetherblades. Or running around hunting Heirlooms. The map gets filled with requests for help with Champions or cries of “Where’s Peter??”, but they are rarely answered. (Or worse, they get yelled at and told to come help with the Knights.)

Sad as it is, the best story moments only come when the player is in an instance (either alone, or with a few friends). Zerg fights can only take you so far, and as numbers and interest dwindle players who came late to the party often miss out.

Absolutely. I was thinking about this over the weekend as I sat amongst a herd of Orr event farmers, drowning in a field of particle effects at the Temple of Dwayna. I had Invasion/BFLA flashbacks and started telling my boyfriend about Guild Wars 1, where it would be me and some guild members, all stationed strategically; I would be able to see their faces, fight animations and effects (not to mention those of the “boss”), and everything felt like an important fight. I could see my friends beside me and not a sea of strangers/lagging effects.

I find it easier to swallow being one commander among 5 or even 15 versus 150. I am better able to read skills and support tactically (vs skill spamming and hoping someone near me needed a cleanse), which is what brings me the most joy from fighting in games.

I know GW2 is trying to shun instanced content, but my god if I don’t feel like I’m an ant in the middle of some bizarre rave (3 fps lightshow) most of the time in zerg content. It also reminded me of being on the breachmaker and unable to even see the NPCs like Kiel and Heal-O-Tron, or the end of the Marionette fight and 100 people crowding around them so badly I didn’t even realize the B-Iconics were in the area (nonetheless holding a relatively important story conversation) until my second time taking the Mari down.

That said, the Mari fight itself was the most epic I’ve seen in-game. That’s an example of zerg content done right, breaking it up in a few ways so you feel meaningful. Tower of Nightmares also did this pretty well, especially with the instances you could break out into for more intimate group moments.

And I’d like to address Shrike’s brief analysis of the Mari fight (because it’s my favorite XD). To say that “we ran up and tested it for her. And then it never showed up again” makes it sound like we had a choice or didn’t succeed in destroying the Marionette. She was testing its death blast (and possibly the time and number of forces it took to hinder her steam creatures from charging the mari) against an entire zone. Our side of the fight was to get up to its inner defenses and shut it down for good. An explanation about why we couldn’t go for a seemingly more tactically sound approach would have been nice to see.

It seems obvious in retrospect that this is the weapon she would have preferred to use against Lion’s Arch as the drill did its thing, but instead had to settle for a slow-onset poison cloud, probably the more potent version of the toxin from the Tower of Nightmares that Marjory and our character speculated about in the Dead End Bar. I assume there just wasn’t enough time before her planned LA invasion, possibly combined with her antsiness to awake the dragon and hubris at her own intelligence, to make another one or salvage it. This does sort of highlight a “how much time has passed between updates in-game?” issue, though. And a consistency issue. I would have loved to see the mari fight reprised in certain ways within Battle for LA and on the breachmaker instead of the random holograms and assault knights’ new mechanics. Not that the new mechanics were bad (they were great!), it just seemed a little random to introduce at the very very end of Scarlet’s story. I would rather have seen her salvage and introduce re-worked elements of the Twisted Marionette if that time gap in-game was only ~a week. The attunement via asura colleges mechanic seemed like it should have been given to a different Big Bad (Inquest + Mai Trin’s Pirates?).

Thobek.1730:

Give me an example of a straight couple in this game that flirts all the time? It might be a bit tough considering there is only ONE male lead Braham and he was rejected by Ottilia (guys don’t get much love in this game), but even when you look at the secondary support cast pick one straight couple that flirts like you said. Just one… and it doesn’t have to be all the time either. Just one straight couple with just one example of them flirting.

This game doesn’t really have a straight couple that does it.

And that’s fine, is my point, because the vast majority of media has an over-abundance.

OMG is that guy still whining about how this game doesn’t conform to the exact same gender/sexuality stereotypes all too common in entertainment media? Seriously, stop hijacking threads with your crap that any rational person either finds refreshing or couldn’t care less about.

OP was fantastic, agreed on all points.

Einlanzer.1627:

OMG is that guy still whining about how this game doesn’t conform to the exact same gender/sexuality stereotypes all too common in entertainment media? Seriously, stop hijacking threads with your crap that any rational person either finds refreshing or couldn’t care less about.

OP was fantastic, agreed on all points.

I’m… honestly not sure who was complaining about that, given that… well, the Living Story currently conforms to the exact same gender/sexuality stereotypes that are all too common in entertainment media. It’s just that there are MORE women conforming to stereotypes, rather than FEWER women conforming to stereotypes. More women does not mean that they’ve magically escaped the bonds of harmful trope usage.

And it’s kind of necessary to talk about it in a thread about Living Story and particularly Scarlet, because it’s one of the big problems with Living Story; and in this thread a dev specifically asked for input. This is the most necessary input. More women does not equal more equality if your women fulfill the same sexist ideas that Socrates used to belittle his wife. That’s how old these stereotypes are.

Shriketalon.1937:

….ask and you shall receive.

I find your perspective fascinating and wish to subscribe to your newsletter .

“That’s how old these stereotypes are.” – Great, now get with the future and move forward. Be strong in your own sexuality and stop preaching, frothing at the mouth and generally being loathsome to others trying to get them to vote for your viewpoint at the cost of theirs.
Also – remember that some stereotypes exist due to people wanting to be like that. I’ve had friends who are the stereotypical flamboyant, loud colourful homosexual and the bush shirt wearing, sailor level swearing hardcore feminist. They won’t change just because you want them to. They’d probably get extremely angry at you for calling their lifestyle choices a stereotype.
Also – once again, shriketalon is amazing, i literally tear up and get goosebumps when i read what the story could have been.

Gagaru.6132:

What would have worked for me is the PC being a member of the Pact, and we could all work with the idea that all the PCs are Pact members who do various Important Jobs. That ship has sailed. It might be a disappointment to destroy the Pact, but I feel it’s a bandage that has to be ripped off to focus on other aspects of the story.

That would work very well indeed. In fact, it might work out that way with the Pact destroyed. With the sense of authority gone, all that is left is the player’s status as a veteran of the Orrian War. It’s easy to write in mentions of the PC’s veteran status without worrying about them throwing around orders. More importantly, it fits the idea of a new player/old player dichotomy: one just showed up, the other is a seasoned hero from past conflicts.

Zaxares.5419:

In order for that sense of drama and effort to be retained, we really need to address the issue of players turning the Living Story into “the next farm pit”. Yes, it was exciting and thrilling to try to get to 1200 civilian rescues… the first time. And maybe the next 5 times. But after that, players start going off and doing their own things.

Honestly, I think that’s alright. The second time you see a magician perform a magnificent feat of prestidigitation, it isn’t going to dazzle you like the first time and you might see through the illusion. The fourth time you watch a film, you may start drifting off and musing about the background effects or watching the extras for bloopers.

If the first time they tell the story is absolutely fantastic, I would consider that a victory. It could be even better if it remained amazing, but that is icing on an otherwise wonderful chocolate cookie cake.

kimeekat.2548:

And I’d like to address Shrike’s brief analysis of the Mari fight (because it’s my favorite XD). To say that “we ran up and tested it for her. And then it never showed up again” makes it sound like we had a choice or didn’t succeed in destroying the Marionette.

Sorry about the brevity of that point, I was rather tired at the time and wanted to get that post out before the work week.

To elaborate, the problem with the Marionette scenario is that we basically did exactly as Scarlet requested, on her terms, with no rhyme or reason to dance to the beat of her drum. She had a random UFO floating in the middle of nowhere and a giant “Stand Here To Fight The Giant Robot” sign painted in oil, which attracted us like Wile-e Coyote to a flightless bird convention.

No one said “So, newly-appointed Captain Kiel, how about giving that airship a test run by nuking that giant floating platform?” Neither did anyone ask “why do we have to go underneath the giant platform that’s accomplishing nothing?” And worst of all, even if you defeat the Marionette…..no one wants to do anything about the giant howling portal UFO hovering above it. We clustered around the treasure chest, got depressed at the number of greens and blues, and called it a day.

It was a fun battle, to be sure, but it served no narrative purpose whatsoever apart from introducing Taimi (who is adorable, so that’s a point in the win column, but could have been introduced anywhere). If the Marionette did not exist, the narrative itself wouldn’t have changed in the slightest. Thus, it seemed like the best example of “good gameplay, bad story”, since the gameplay trumped the “Scarlet Invades Random Sector X” month.

More story driven content (like Escape from Lion’s Arch)
Less content driven story (everything else)

Shriketalon.1937:

Honestly, I think that’s alright. The second time you see a magician perform a magnificent feat of prestidigitation, it isn’t going to dazzle you like the first time and you might see through the illusion. The fourth time you watch a film, you may start drifting off and musing about the background effects or watching the extras for bloopers.

If the first time they tell the story is absolutely fantastic, I would consider that a victory. It could be even better if it remained amazing, but that is icing on an otherwise wonderful chocolate cookie cake.

Yes, but keep in mind that for a lot of players, their “first time” is going to be zoning into a map where people are yelling out that “X Champ is up”, “Where’s Peter??”, “Can some1 show me the heirlooms?” etc. etc. It’s a bit hard to get properly swept up in a story when there’s masses of players around.

I still think that having important story bits being played out in instances is the right way to go, but those instances shouldn’t be reliant on having a zerg win beforehand, like how the Tower of Nightmares and the Scarlet’s End instance were done.

Treebeard The Swift.9620:

“That’s how old these stereotypes are.” – Great, now get with the future and move forward. Be strong in your own sexuality and stop preaching, frothing at the mouth and generally being loathsome to others trying to get them to vote for your viewpoint at the cost of theirs.
Also – remember that some stereotypes exist due to people wanting to be like that. I’ve had friends who are the stereotypical flamboyant, loud colourful homosexual and the bush shirt wearing, sailor level swearing hardcore feminist. They won’t change just because you want them to. They’d probably get extremely angry at you for calling their lifestyle choices a stereotype.
Also – once again, shriketalon is amazing, i literally tear up and get goosebumps when i read what the story could have been.

I suppose I must have been unclear. My earlier posts were walls of text, and I was trying to be more brief, but apparently that backfired. Now, here have a wall of text because apparently I’m incapable of explaining myself in brief, and I will do my best not to “froth at the mouth” or be “loathsome.”

I wasn’t referring to any sexuality itself as stereotypical; the stereotype-based problems are more gender-related than sexuality-related, anyway. There are two areas of concern here, one being sexuality and the other being gender. The relationship is troubling, and the characters are stereotypical; and my concern is that people are seeing a lesbian relationship and powerful women and thinking “oh, this is a good thing!” while getting a horrible impression of what being a lesbian woman and what being a powerful woman actually mean.

I too have friends all across the sexuality and gender spectrum, probably far more than most people because I intentionally sought to live in the most accepting-of-everybody dorm on campus while I was in school, and made many friends there. Heck, I’m a straight girl who technically has an ex-girlfriend because I dated a transwoman who had not come to terms with her gender identity yet and was still living as male (although I regret my obliviousness, and wish I’d been more observant so as to be able to help her through that realization and transition, even if we did break up before she came out and began to transition— possibly because she thought I wouldn’t understand, which breaks my heart as I may be oblivious, but I’m also empathetic once it finally gets through my thick skull what’s going on). I am nothing if not secure in my sexuality. My issues with the way characters are depicted in Living Story, therefore, comes from a place of concern for my friends, and for myself as a woman, and for anyone who gets damaging ideas from the story about what it means to be a woman.

The stereotypes I refer to that are as old as Socrates are those surrounding powerful women— and very relevant to this discussion, because the Living Story characters are supposed to be powerful women. These stereotypes are slightly different from what others might think of as “women in games” stereotypes, but they are just as damaging and, if you actually look, quite prevalent in the genre. I’m talking about the idea that women demonstrate power through verbal abuse, and desperately seek dominance over men using this tactic. This is a theme that has characterized Western literature for millennia. Shakespeare wrote an entire play about it: The Taming of the Shrew. “Shrew” was basically the old word for a current equivalent meaning “mean female” or “to complain and criticize endlessly and loudly” and also referring to an animal. The female protagonist’s main characteristic is being incredibly verbally abusive, and the entire play is about breaking her of it. It’s also how Socrates described his wife, as constantly criticizing shrilly— and he also describes her as an animal he wants to tame. This is not terribly positive imagery we’re talking about, here.

(continued in another post because apparently I’m only capable of either brief, useless comments or walls of text)

(continued from previous post)

In the modern world, the stereotype shows up with less emphasis on shrillness and more on sheer cruelty, with negative ideas regarding businesswomen as cold and domineering; but there are also many examples of the “nagging wife” stereotype. It has always stood into direct opposition to that of the “good” woman, who is submissive, but also kind, nurturing, thoughtful— essentially, the dichotomy states that either you are strong (or attempt to be dominant) but also cruel and heartless, or you are weak/submissive and also kind, nurturing, helpful, etc. Sexist depictions of women from the Victorian era onward focus on the latter, while before the Victorian era they often focused on the former; but they are both sides of the same coin, which places a woman into one of only two possible roles. There is also a sexual component; women who are “good” are chaste and “pure,” and women who are “bad” are sexually rapacious. Taken all together, the sexual and moral components are known as the “goddess/harlot dichotomy.” (I don’t know that I can use the word that is usually used in the second part of that dichotomy, which emphasizes its demeaning nature.)

Why is this ancient stereotype significant to the story? The female members of Destiny’s Edge 2.0 have only gotten meaner and meaner as time goes on, starting to fulfill this very assumption for no apparent reason! Marjory in particular has gone from merely “snide” to outright mean, putting down Rox and Braham as having “let Scarlet slip through their fingers.” If anything, Rox should have been angry at that too… but by the end of the Living Story, she’s sitting there with the rest of the Destiny’s Edge 2.0 ladies, making fun of Braham right along with them! This also develops as Kasmeer and Marjory’s relationship does, unintentionally fulfilling the idea that women being sexually active goes along with their being cruel. So, an attempt to further feminism has instead lead to reinforcing the inherently sexist goddess/harlot dichotomy!

While it has to do less with stereotypes, another seriously troubling issue is that as Kasmeer and Marjory’s relationship grows, it eclipses every other aspect of their individual characters, save for the increasing meanness. (What a way to depict a lesbian couple— “now that they’re in a lesbian relationship, they’re really catty and cruel, especially to men!” Now THAT’S a stereotype, and there is no way to interpret that in a positive way.) In any relationship, this is unhealthy; subsuming your personality entirely to a relationship can only end badly, no matter what sexuality, because it’s simply unsustainable. But it’s also harmful to views of homosexual people when it is so visually featured in a game, because it defines them not by who they are, but by the fact that they are now a lesbian couple. They become “lesbians first, people second,” where they should be “people who are lesbian.” This is different from, say, a gay guy you know in real life who “fits the stereotype” because no matter how stereotypically flamboyant and fabulous he is, he is still a person and has his own unique characteristics that differentiate from other gay men who are flamboyant and fabulous too— simply fitting a stereotype is not harmful, but being defined by it is. Kasmeer and Marjory are now only defined by two things: 1), their relationship, and 2), their status as dominant women. Neither of those should define a person— it should describe a person.

I hope you understand now what I was trying to say. I would very much LIKE Living Story to “get with the future.” The original content of the game did a much better job of getting with the future, treating the lesbian relationship between Caithe and Faolain not as some sort of spectacle, but as an actual relationship that caused real feelings, character development, growth! By fitting into such ancient stereotypes about women so easily, though, and by turning their relationship into a highly visible spectacle that consumes their personalities, Kasmeer and Marjory are dragging the Living Story into the past.

This post has gotten rather long, but I can explain in yet another post how Scarlet perpetuates yet another another ancient stereotype, the idea of a woman held up on a pedestal to be admired (common in Medieval lyrics especially, and codified in the code of chivalry; highly related to the Goddess part of the dichotomy), if you like. I’m not some sort of bigot desperate to keep wimminz out of my gaemz— I’m a woman with an English (read: literature from across history and the world, not just English) degree, from a university where the English and the Women’s and Gender Studies departments are pretty closely associated, who’s got a good bit of gender study related to both literature and philosophy under my belt, and who wants to see REAL women in my games— like GW2 did so well before the Scarlet arc.

1. Use what you have. Characters, histories, plot threads: you already have a thousand toys in place. Even my character has a personality, history, and connections in the world.
2. Make my stake in the fight personal. Nobody cares about saving the world. The scale is too big for us to be emotionally invested in. If you want me to care about the cards on the table, make sure I’m betting with my own chips.
3. Get proper feedback. You can’t trust internal responses from non-writers to be sufficient. That’s like a novelist self-publishing when the only other person who’s read the book is their spouse. Find other writers and editors, (game and non-game), and workshop the ideas to death before pushing them out.

Twyll Blackleaf.9641:

Depicting women as inconsiderate and lesbian women as “lesbians first, people second” is not refreshing and it is not un-sexist. It is still misogynistic, just in a different way. Might I remind you that powerful women have been stereotyped as cruel and domineering for millennia, and it has always been part of a masculine society’s negative views of women? Adding more cruel, domineering powerful women to the mix is not helping!

And yet . . . we don’t have either of Marjory or Kasmeer acting as though the first thing of importance in their life to date is their orientation. Marjory has her job, and a duty to the dead. Kasmeer has the fall from nobility and moving into a role of actually being useful changing the world for the better.

The detail they love each other isn’t really an issue for each character in and of themselves. It is an issue only when they are together, and only if you take the playful commentary as something distasteful. It comes off as a means of lightening the spirits . . . heck it comes off a lot like some Joss Whedon scripts. Or alternatively, your average episode of Castle . . .

That’s really my point with these character: They are defined beyond “we are lesbians and in love with each other”. So as a general appeal to the players, please stop saying they’re only there for fanservice.

No, what’s in the game for fanservice are things like the Vizier’s Tower room to look at, or the ghosts of former NPCs as enemies in the Ascalonian Catacombs, or the Iron Forgeman fight. That’s more raw fanservice.

I’m sorry if this argument seems to have derailed the topic… but this issue is inseparably intertwined with the character of Scarlet herself and with the entire Living Story, because it has been forced into the story in a way that damages both its original cause and the characters it affects.

Not in my eyes. It’s been slipped in, and it has not damaged the characters but enriched them. It has not cheapened Kasmeer (who had almost nothing before she popped up as Marjory’s assistant . . . except for her trip to Southsun Cove), and it didn’t cheapen Marjory.

. . . at the least of it, it’s started a betting pool for which one is going to die and break the other’s heart. I’m betting Marjory takes the bullet.

Kasmeer and Marjory’s personalities have both been entirely subsumed to their relationship (which is unhealthy in ANY relationship, but disastrous in such a visible example when lesbian relationships are so rarely shown with any shred of finesse in games as it is).

Demonstrably not so, but if you choose to see it that way, eh. What can I argue with if you don’t see it?

Braham has been assigned all the negative images that used to be associated with women (excessive emotionality, needing to be rescued, being needy and excessively attached), for no apparent reason aside from “time to turn the tables on men now, bwahahah!”

Now you’re projecting malice. He’s a young man, and he’s not getting the negative sides of women . . . he’s getting the negatives of being young, brash, and an idiot. Let’s be clear here – a big part of his arc seems to be getting past worrying about making his legacy and just doing it.

Rox has become Braham’s big manly hero who saves him, but then has to ride off into the sunset, leaving him behind as he cries womanly tears— a simple reversal of roles, not an alteration of the roles!

Again, you’re projecting what you want onto her and cherry-picking traits to make your point. Rox is probably more hamstrung by being female than by picking up masculine traits. She stayed behind to help him after Scarlet’s field broke his leg, and is giving up joining the Stone Warband (her dream for so long now it’s been a half running gag with Rytlock) because she accepted she has a different sort of band growing here and she can’t have both.

She chose friendship over duty, and that is . . . one thing media loves to hang on female characters. Rather than male ones, who will tend to go nobly off to fight because they have to, gods bless the brave soldiers . . .

This is not helpful, and it is embarrassing to women like me who actually liked how they— and therefore how WE— were depicted in this game before the giant personality shift.

Well there was a rather large event which happened and that usually does change peoples’ personalities. Strange to see it reflected in fiction.

This is not an off-topic issue.

Not really, but it is off the mark. Right target, but not too accurate with the shot. Step back and compose yourself before trying again.

Please take the “other” topic to a different thread. Nice update Shrike Another great read.

Picking up specific examples and quotes to form a timeline will take me a bit, so I’ll get back to tomorrow— pretty late here— with my evidence. Right now I know the events and the general interactions, but I want to be able to provide you with specific wordings and a stricter timeline.

Kain Francois.4328:

As a writer myself, I’m taking note. This sums everything up incredibly well done; you hit the nail on the head with Ogden’s hammer.

Perhaps the biggest problem you noticed about Scarlet, is the fact she never interacts with anyone…

I will admit though, she did have two very memorable commanders, though: Mai Trin and First Mate Horrik

That’s actually pretty much the issue. Mai, Horrk, the Inquest guy with the bugzapper trap, the various bosses in Twilight Assault, even the dredge engineer in Molten Furnace… they were all boss fights that had a lot of character, but they never actually became characters because, apart from Mai, they all lasted for one boss fight and that was it. They had no chance to further develop or become a lieutenant that Scarlet could have any byplay with. In Mai’s case, she survived, technically, but any chance for byplay was lost through her simply disappearing after her escape.

While “cheating” the players by having an enemy escape at the last minute is a trope to be used sparingly, in this case I think it would have been better to have some of that than the alternative. The dredge weapons engineer in MF and the Inquest researcher in AR are good examples – there was really no reason for the former to come within weapons reach or the latter to get caught in his own trap. Each of these could have escaped to become recurring lieutenants or assistants for Scarlet, giving her someone to interact with and making their final defeat all the sweeter.

Cormac.3871:

You guys do know that Lord of the Rings broke a lot of these rules. Just setting forth a set of things that you think make for interesting story telling doesn’t necessarily mean that anything that doesn’t adhere to them will be bad.

A common piece of advice for writers goes along the lines of ‘Know what the rules are and how to follow them, and then you’ll understand when it improves the story to break them’. LOTR follows many and breaks some.

(For the record, Sauron actually isn’t just over 9000. The trilogy gives enough background to establish just where his power is from, and more importantly, establishes his Kryptonite early on… and then the whole story is about exploiting that weakness.)

I need to concentrate on some RL stuff this evening so the list-of-three will have to wait until I can do it justice, but one thing I want to point out:

Neilos Tyrhanos.5427:

That’s a fine point, but wasn’t the one I was addressing. I was addressing how fictional straight couples are shown doing the same stuff all the time, flirting in serious situations, getting stupid, being unrealistic. And yet, whenever it’s a straight romance in question, their sexuality is never brought up. Usually nobody bats an eyelid at the incongruity of it.

This… is actually more realistic than you might think. Some of the most incorrigible jokesters are soldiers on the front line facing imminent collapse of their forces and dead or POWship at the hands of their enemies. It’s a way of blowing of steam.

Throw sexual tension into the mix, and there’s going to be flirting among that joking – it may even be a stronger correlation due to factors such as seeking affirmation of being alive, the biological imperative to have one last chance at breeding before you die, and the whole misattribution of fear and arousal thing. It may seem to be inappropriate to the atmosphere… but that’s human nature. Acting in a lighthearted manner while in situations that are anything but lighthearted is part of the coping mechanism.

Twyll Blackleaf.9641:

Picking up specific examples and quotes to form a timeline will take me a bit, so I’ll get back to tomorrow— pretty late here— with my evidence. Right now I know the events and the general interactions, but I want to be able to provide you with specific wordings and a stricter timeline.

PM me with them, please, they’re right we should take it off the thread.

draxynnic.3719:

Cormac.3871:

You guys do know that Lord of the Rings broke a lot of these rules. Just setting forth a set of things that you think make for interesting story telling doesn’t necessarily mean that anything that doesn’t adhere to them will be bad.

A common piece of advice for writers goes along the lines of ‘Know what the rules are and how to follow them, and then you’ll understand when it improves the story to break them’. LOTR follows many and breaks some.

(For the record, Sauron actually isn’t just over 9000. The trilogy gives enough background to establish just where his power is from, and more importantly, establishes his Kryptonite early on… and then the whole story is about exploiting that weakness.)

LOTR also wound up accidentally writing some of the cliches and tropes people use these days. So it’s often hard to say if they are following rules or making rules we now take for granted.

I just feel like pointing this out, because Tolkein’s work is undoubtedly amazing but it is a different animal entirely from your current fantasy novels and Guild Wars 2. At the basest point, in fact – Lord of the Rings and Middle Earth are a mythological look at events rather than a factual one.

It’s one of the reasons pragmatic adaptations of it are a nightmarish undertaken and were doomed to various levels of failure for fans of the original. But that’s a topic for another day.

Tyria’s story and plot is structured less like that – except the Manuscripts published long ago and things which were talked about before we actually can witness them.

This… is actually more realistic than you might think. Some of the most incorrigible jokesters are soldiers on the front line facing imminent collapse of their forces and dead or POWship at the hands of their enemies. It’s a way of blowing of steam.

Wasn’t there a movie about that? I think Kubrick made it, could be mistaken though.

Not sure. Generation Kill might be an example – some truly horrible situations, and jokes being cracked the moment the people involved were no longer in imminent danger of death or dismemberment.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Twyll Blackleaf.9641:

Picking up specific examples and quotes to form a timeline will take me a bit, so I’ll get back to tomorrow— pretty late here— with my evidence. Right now I know the events and the general interactions, but I want to be able to provide you with specific wordings and a stricter timeline.

PM me with them, please, they’re right we should take it off the thread.

Yeah, the argument has grown past its purpose in this thread. I’m honestly finding even more disturbing things than I thought going through past event dialogues, and I think it merits a thread of its own, so I’ll post a new one. Originally my arguments were in support of my own points in my (admittedly incredibly wall-o-texty) “3 things” post, but the process of actually proving everything would take up way too much space here and detract from the rest of the discussion.

I do still maintain that it issues of feminism are integral to the problems with the Living Story and especially with Scarlet and Kasmory, though; and as I look back through the dialogues of the events, they reveal themselves to be even more integral and more clumsily handled than I originally thought they were— but the details and evidence are for another thread, which I’m still putting together. I will PM you to let you know when it’s finished and add the link to my posts, hopefully to allow explaining myself without taking up the rest of this thread.

Twyll Blackleaf.9641:

and I think it merits a thread of its own, so I’ll post a new one.

Please do, I think it merits its own thread.

BobbyStein.2315:

What are your top three requests?

Jumping on the bandwagon a bit late here but:

1. Less focus on the B-iconics and more focus on the diverse roles performed by a number of heroes across Tyria. I think a core cast is unnecessary and restricts stories in Tyria. They come at an opportunity loss of other characters in Tyria (it’s a big world) and other stories I’d like to see told. I could enjoy them more if they had been more prominent individuals (to explain why they pop up all the time and justify why they are the focus of the story). As they are I think they weaken stories by making it about themselves instead of the world around them. If I go to Brisban I want to meet with sylvari, asura or Seraph dealing with the conflict there, not Marjory and the cast (even if she has a sister there). I don’t need them as middle men to connect me to every story, I reserve that suspension of disbelief for myself – not NPCs, I actually enjoy engaging directly with relevant NPCs, not surrogate characters doing it for me. Side bonus, if you dislike any of the five characters tough luck, they are always around. If the cast is bringing in new people and letting old ones go as the story evolves and it makes most sense to involve people, people you like or dislike will come and go.

2. More attention paid to portraying the villains in the story. I don’t need them to be as prominent as the allies but I don’t want to be told on the forums the Flame Legion in the Molten Alliance were a small group. I don’t want to be told they can’t return to their main factions because they are no longer accepted. I want to see that stuff in the game. I don’t want nameless henchmen, I want soldiers who are believable members of Tyria. Characters I can understand their motivations, where they come from, why they do what they do. I want leaders who can believably lead them and can sell the big plot developments. If you’re going to establish two distinct personalities for villainous factions (the dredge and the Flame Legion) and then have a plot point that arguably has them acting out of character (or at least has us questioning it based on previously established identities) I want to see how that took place. Which Flame Legion members led them to go out on their own, who convinced his followers to work for Scarlet, who convinced them to ally with the dredge (I want to see Scarlet be diplomatic for that matter). I believe Winds of Change did a good job of portraying a convincing leader, a believable set of events and sympathetic villains. It’s not perfect, but it was better than season one imo.

3. I want darker stories. This might seem weird after Lion’s Arch was destroyed (isn’t that dark enough?) but I feel like the morality of GW2 is laid on a bit thick. The heroes always seem to be justified in everything they do, they don’t get themselves dirty (compare that to the protagonists from True Detective). I don’t need Tyria to be Law and Order SVU dark (or True Detective dark) but I’d like to see the heroes have some real flaws without going full villain (like Evon appears to be doing). Have Jennah cave into political pressure and abandon Ebonhawke to settle the charr treaty – peace with charr traded for civil unrest with the Ascalonian immigrants, maybe have Anise try to frame Caudecus in a desperate attempt to save Jennah after he outsmarts both of them. Have Marjory work with some really shady CIs to solve a case, have her do the wrong thing for the greater good. Please make Canache’s “found Ventari” act be just that – an act. Stop clearly defining the lines of morality in the story and using the NPCs as becons of light and justice. Maybe the Black Market bandits had their families thrown out of Divinity’s Reach after the Crown Pavillion was built in their slum home. Maybe the Queen didn’t pay them their full wage to construct the pavillion because the war on the centaurs stretched the royal coffers too thin, so the bandits turned to crime? Find a middle ground between Nightmare sylvari and the Dreamers. A lot of Cadeyrn and Canache’s questions and issues with sylvari society are reasonable, they just seemed to go from “I have a reasonable question” to “I’m a crazy terrorist who does bad”.

Shriketalon.1937:

ColinJohanson.2394:

Great post! Though we did a CDI to discuss Living World and covered many of these topics and concerns in there as well, I think it’s always good to stop and brainstorm and give feedback on how to improve the living world experience.

BobbyStein.2315:

I’d like to echo Colin’s sentiments. Thanks to the OP and everyone else for posting your constructive feedback here.

Thank you both for your consideration and kind words. I have always been impressed by Arenanet’s commitment to making their game better, and I hope there is some shard of wisdom amidst my many ramblings that can help in some way.

BobbyStein.2315:

Part of the development process is prioritization, so I’d like to know what you feel are the highest impact items you think would improve our storytelling delivery. What are your top three requests?

Well, if I had to distill it down from the fifteen and flesh them out….

….ask and you shall receive.

I just wanted to come back in and add another thought after this followup post: Anet, please hire/contract this individual to work with you on design and writing. I really don’t usually jump on the ‘oh, this guy said something good, you should hire him’ bandwagon, but Shriketalon has struck the nail squarely on the head with every pen stroke. He displays true insight and mastery of video game narrative, along with impeccable communication skills. I simply cannot name a serious narrative problem he has not framed with great expertise.

I care not if it is a monthly review he performs of your plans, or if you bring him on as a full-time designer/writer, but your team NEEDS his feedback. And not as a lowly intern, or as a ’we’ll listen if we have time.’ No, his voice must be herd by the highest decision-making echelons of narrative design in Anet.

I implore you, Chris White, Bobby Stein, Colin Johanson, Ree Soesbee, and all others who read this plea: add this brilliant mind to your force of creativity, and let his talents bring out the true glory in the masterpiece you have created.

dreadicon.5840:

I just wanted to come back in and add another thought after this followup post: Anet, please hire/contract this individual to work with you on design and writing. I really don’t usually jump on the ‘oh, this guy said something good, you should hire him’ bandwagon, but Shriketalon has struck the nail squarely on the head with every pen stroke. He displays true insight and mastery of video game narrative, along with impeccable communication skills. I simply cannot name a serious narrative problem he has not framed with great expertise.

I only hesitate to add that because working for someone sort of restricts what you can do about problems you notice. And it’s very likely if he was hired . . . he wouldn’t be able to do much anyway other than be one more rock in an avalanche.

He’s far more valuable as a non-official person.

I care not if it is a monthly review he performs of your plans, or if you bring him on as a full-time designer/writer, but your team NEEDS his feedback. And not as a lowly intern, or as a ’we’ll listen if we have time.’ No, his voice must be heard by the highest decision-making echelons of narrative design in Anet.

If his feedback is needed, then there is no need for him to draw a paycheck and be contracted. All that’s needed is for him to basically continue doing what he just did with this topic – give feedback in a polite manner enough that it won’t be ignored outright and in a witty enough manner people will remember it rather than forget it after a few days.

I implore you, Chris White, Bobby Stein, Colin Johanson, Ree Soesbee, and all others who read this plea: add this brilliant mind to your force of creativity, and let his talents bring out the true glory in the masterpiece you have created.

No offense is meant, but there is one final thing which comes to mind. Being able to view a piece, unravel its problems, and state them in an entertaining manner . . . does not make it necessarily to follow the person has creative talent enough to make something. There is a difference in talent between critics who know what they’re doing and writers who can make masterpieces.

They might overlap, but there’s no guarantee.

Shiren.9532:

1. Less focus on the B-iconics and more focus on the diverse roles performed by a number of heroes across Tyria. I think a core cast is unnecessary and restricts stories in Tyria. They come at an opportunity loss of other characters in Tyria (it’s a big world) and other stories I’d like to see told. I could enjoy them more if they had been more prominent individuals (to explain why they pop up all the time and justify why they are the focus of the story). As they are I think they weaken stories by making it about themselves instead of the world around them. If I go to Brisban I want to meet with sylvari, asura or Seraph dealing with the conflict there, not Marjory and the cast (even if she has a sister there). I don’t need them as middle men to connect me to every story, I reserve that suspension of disbelief for myself – not NPCs, I actually enjoy engaging directly with relevant NPCs, not surrogate characters doing it for me. Side bonus, if you dislike any of the five characters tough luck, they are always around. If the cast is bringing in new people and letting old ones go as the story evolves and it makes most sense to involve people, people you like or dislike will come and go.

I think this is a very good point.

Although some people really like the Scooby Gang, there is a conundrum with the player’s constant involvement. We don’t really have a reason to stick with them. The individual members of the gang may have befriended one another and banded together as a new guild, but this ain’t exactly our first rodeo. We done this skritt before, and the Player Character has hobnobbed around with far higher echelons of well-to-do hero types before. Sure, we may exchange Wintersday cards with the gang, but that doesn’t mean we’d stick with them.

Traveling around and meeting lots of different people would also improve the status of the player (currently a controversy over whether we should get development and stand center stage, or just be one of the crowd and an observer). If we’re a Wandering Hero, we can be both instrumental to success due to our involvement AND a bit of an enigma that allows players to project their own motivations and personality onto the character. We can’t do that if we’re told who we consider BFFs. Lots of additional characters would also help alleviate concerns over possible biases (and thank you for taking that to PMs/another thread, I appreciate that) by introducing loads of characters.

Best of all, though, it would allow far more perspectives on Tyria. There are a wide variety of cultural archetypes that don’t currently see much representation in actual character development. We don’t have a very devout human character, nor a skald from the Norn focusing on the power of legend or a shaman who communes with the spirits. We could have conversations between a Firstborn and a Soundless over the ethics of sylvari culture, or three sided science bickering between the Asuran colleges even in the middle of a firefight. It would also be nice if the Orders had more character involvement, perhaps bringing characters like Laranthir of the Wild, Doern Velazquez, and Crusader Hiroki back into the spotlight to be the face of their order’s involvement.

The more characters we meet, the more Tyria comes alive AND the more the different characters can play off of one another to open up further personal development. ’Tis a win-win, except for the poor writer in charge of compiling them all and the voice acting budget. But sometimes quality is worth the cost.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

No offense is meant, but there is one final thing which comes to mind. Being able to view a piece, unravel its problems, and state them in an entertaining manner . . . does not make it necessarily to follow the person has creative talent enough to make something.

…
…
…
*puts away my “totally epic” fanfiction of Mr. Sparkles/Scruffy/Her-o-tron/M.O.X. combining into one giant golem and punching out Primordius while shouting totally-not-stolen-from-Transformers/Power Rangers/Gundam catch phrases *

Shriketalon.1937:

…
…
…
*puts away my “totally epic” fanfiction of Mr. Sparkles/Scruffy/Her-o-tron/M.O.X. combining into one giant golem and punching out Primordius while shouting totally-not-stolen-from-Transformers/Power Rangers/Gundam catch phrases *

Heh . . .

It’s not fanfiction becoming canon which worries me (though I saw that happen with EverQuest enough to make me give up on lore there). It’s basically someone pulled in because “they’re really good” and their interpretation of lore or “bits and pieces of ideas” wind up at odds with the people doing it.

And I don’t mean slightly off, or “Scarlet was a stupid idea, retcon her out”, more like “let’s bring back the Six and restore some other human-centric elements from the previous game” or “let’s reopen Cantha instead of going after Mordremoth”.

In other words, things which seem like they’d be win-win but can blow up in the face of the designers easily enough. The gods know that happens plenty with ArenaNet