Guild Wars 2

Being forced into the position of killing an entire village was just… distasteful. Even though it was a ‘memory’ and we were supposedly acting as another person, having to physically participate in that fight left everyone on my team feeling very sick.

Maybe that’s what you were going for, I dunno, but it marred the storytelling for us. It is one thing for a player to make choices that are less than ‘heroic’, it is another for a game to force a player to act like that.

(Tack on that the PC and Jory’s reactions completely missed the maipulation that was happening, and just described it as Caithe being in some ‘dark places’, and it really felt, well, yucky.)

I feel the idiom here is… “The road to hades is paved with good intentions”.

It’s not supposed to make you feel good, it’s supposed to make you question everything.

Except it was clear Faolain was in the wrong, even Caithe should’ve been able to see that and try to defuse the situation instead of helping slaughter the entire village. What good intention were we going for, taking Wynne back against her will?

I’m not disagreeing with the story or the memory, or that there was information there that we needed to know. I’m disagreeing with making the players actively participate.

I can handle the “actions” being performed as a memory, but when you return and tell Jory what took place…you say “Centaurs turned on Caithe”! That ridiculous summation takes huge liberties with the facts and glosses completely over the provocations and what really happened.

Also, Caithe is being stupid. In this game, love appears to make people giant idiots; yes, I am looking at you, Logan.

Nilkemia.8507:

Except it was clear Faolain was in the wrong, even Caithe should’ve been able to see that and try to defuse the situation instead of helping slaughter the entire village. What good intention were we going for, taking Wynne back against her will?

Spot on!

I suspect the whole point of the memories is witnessing Caithe watching her beloved descend into evil, and at some point seeing Caithe’s revelation that her sweetie is a manipulative psycho; thus leading us to understand why she ganked the egg (mebby she thinks she can heal her with it, I dunno)

And I know recapping the entire thing for Jory would be redundant storytelling but “The centaurs turned and it got violent” really does ignore what actualy happened. By this point Jory (and the PC!) should be “Daaang, that Faolin was fruiter than a nutcake!”

I will give mad props to the writers for really capturing Faolain’s manipulative darkness- blaming Wynn because she didn’t do what Fao wanted, ‘we didn’t want this, but you made it happen’. That’s some classic abuser tactics right there.

Basically, Faolain is the Earl of Lemongrab for GW2.

The hypocrisy is big again here. Who cares if you have to slaughter some centaurs. Over your game time you will kill 100k+ creatures, so what does this small village matter.

But but… those were EVIL centaurs… uhm uhm…

If it helps, OP, it wasn’t actually YOU killing those centaurs. It was Faolain/Caithe, and I think Caithe probably just got dragged in against her will.

Malediktus.9250:

The hypocrisy is big again here. Who cares if you have to slaughter some centaurs. Over your game time you will kill 100k+ creatures, so what does this small village matter.

Because these centaurs were friendly and willing to get along us until Faolain decided to be a thorn weed for no reason. Everything else we killed (barring ambient creatures) was at least trying to kill us first.

Yeah I didn’t really like it either.

I kept thinking “why on earth would I be attacking these centaurs” and then remembering that I was Caithe… And then continuing to question it because there is absolutely no motivation for Caithe to do that or blindly follow what Faolin is doing/saying.

It just came across and really poorly thought out and not a whole lot of fun to witness…

Malediktus.9250:

The hypocrisy is big again here. Who cares if you have to slaughter some centaurs. Over your game time you will kill 100k+ creatures, so what does this small village matter.

If we were playing absolute pacifistic characters, I might agree with you that it would be hypocrisy. Killing isn’t a problem obviously, the reason we are the supposed good guys is because we do it “justly”.

It’s like say you are a powerful nation, you might come to the defense of smaller nations when asked and you might kill actual bad guys.

But if you were to lie about your motives and just go to war all over, fighting enemies that you created while killing people left and right; well some people (you know, weirdos, non-contents, peaceniks, hippies, etc.) might point out that you aren’t being the “good guy” anymore.

The thing is, there is no good or evil. Everything in the eye of the beholder. The centaurs might have been innocent in this situation, but surely noones life is completly innocent.

If Caithe isn’t immediately executed for this series of crimes upon capture then I probably will not continue playing this story.

“The thing is, there is no good or evil……”

lol. lolololollollol. mwhahhahahahhahaaahaa. BAHAHAHHAHHAA.

I shouldn’t laugh as it’s kind of sad. To each their own.

Bordak.6519:

“The thing is, there is no good or evil……”

lol. lolololollollol. mwhahhahahahhahaaahaa. BAHAHAHHAHHAA.

I shouldn’t laugh as it’s kind of sad. To each their own.

It’s rather empowering, isn’t it though?

The shackles of all sentient action being struck off by such a liberating philosophy!

See, son, there’s not really good or evil, it’s just a preference thing; one man’s evil is another man’s ice cream and cake.

Kuldebar.1897:

Bordak.6519:

“The thing is, there is no good or evil……”

lol. lolololollollol. mwhahhahahahhahaaahaa. BAHAHAHHAHHAA.

I shouldn’t laugh as it’s kind of sad. To each their own.

It’s rather empowering, isn’t it though?

The shackles of all sentient action being struck off by such a liberating philosophy!

See, son, there’s not really good or evil, it’s just a preference thing; one man’s evil is another man’s ice cream and cake.

I made a mistake by posting my laugh. In response to:

“The thing is, there is no good or evil……”

I should have simply said this:

You are wrong.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

If Caithe isn’t immediately executed for this series of crimes upon capture then I probably will not continue playing this story.

Considering that we (the characters we play) are not allowed to forgive Canach for his past deeds, and they were much less than this, I have to agree with you.

I’m sure Caithe is trying to make amends for her past deeds, but her actions so far have been FAR from helpful. If anything, she’s endangered the egg and everyone else with her actions. Even her beloved Pale Tree thinks Caithe is doing the wrong thing here, so she’s hardly making amends no matter what she thinks.

Here’s what I expect we’ll get, though:

Hero: Darn it Caithe, you’ve done bad things.
Caithe: I did it for love, and then to make up for my past mistakes. Forgive me?
Hero: Of course we do, Caithe. Your intentions were good, after all.
Canach: Did I hear someone handing out forgiveness?
Hero: Stuff it up your reed stalk, you heartless animal!

ZudetGambeous.9573:

If Caithe isn’t immediately executed for this series of crimes upon capture then I probably will not continue playing this story.

yea right

Bordak.6519:

Kuldebar.1897:

Bordak.6519:

“The thing is, there is no good or evil……”

lol. lolololollollol. mwhahhahahahhahaaahaa. BAHAHAHHAHHAA.

I shouldn’t laugh as it’s kind of sad. To each their own.

It’s rather empowering, isn’t it though?

The shackles of all sentient action being struck off by such a liberating philosophy!

See, son, there’s not really good or evil, it’s just a preference thing; one man’s evil is another man’s ice cream and cake.

I made a mistake by posting my laugh. In response to:

“The thing is, there is no good or evil……”

I should have simply said this:

You are wrong.

Your opinion is highly flawed and shows you have no actual experience in either combat or the real world.

Good and Evil are nothing more than arbitrary labels assigned by the party who lived to write history. Both sides see their own ideology as just and moral.

Perhaps take up some philosophy or simple learn that world isn’t in absolutes.

TexZero.7910:

Your opinion is highly flawed and shows you have no actual experience in either combat or the real world.

Good and Evil are nothing more than arbitrary labels assigned by the party who lived to write history. Both sides see their own ideology as just and moral.

Perhaps take up some philosophy or simple learn that world isn’t in absolutes.

For the sociopathic types, that world view is very empowering.

Breaking eggs and making omelets is what it’s all about.

Nothing really revolutionary about moral relativism, we have been following that methodology for quite a long time now.

Human history bears bloody witness to the constant refrain of doing what’s necessary to win, to gain the highest point on mountains made of skulls.

Ours not to reason why, ours but to do and die!

The only ennoblement of the human spirit is just following orders, after all, right?

TexZero.7910:

Good and Evil are nothing more than arbitrary labels assigned by the party who lived to write history. Both sides see their own ideology as just and moral.

Not entirely true. Yes, the victor is the one that gets to write the history books, but it is their descendants that judge them. We can look back on the actions of past generations and reject their self-appraisal, seeing it now for the mistake it was. It happens all the time.

I’m not going to say there’s an absolute good or absolute evil that we can all agree on, because I know better. But while history my be written by the survivors, that doesn’t decide who’s seen as right in the end.

Even today, some people define “good” as “based on compassion” and “bad” as “selfish”, and others define “good” as law-abiding and “bad” as the opposite. These people often clash with each other. Doesn’t sound very black and white to me!

Pixelpumpkin.4608:

Even today, some people define “good” as “based on compassion” and “bad” as “selfish”, and others define “good” as law-abiding and “bad” as the opposite. These people often clash with each other. Doesn’t sound very black and white to me!

All hail Lawful Evil!

:P

I completely disagree. I LOVED playing the villain for once. I like having characters all across the board—from unrepentantly evil to goodie-two-shoes. I have been frustrated since the beginning that my “evil” characters have been forced into a “goodie-two-shoes” role for the length of the personal and living story.
Slaughtering that centaur village was a shock at first. I’d become mind-numbingly used to playing the good guy. But then it was… glorious. Liberating. Malicious and heartless and fun! Please, Arenanet, let us play the evil role more often!

It’s establishing a narrative, I don’t understand how you can confuse that so much to find offense in it.

Eleri Tezhme.3048:

Being forced into the position of killing an entire village was just… distasteful. Even though it was a ‘memory’ and we were supposedly acting as another person, having to physically participate in that fight left everyone on my team feeling very sick.

Maybe that’s what you were going for, I dunno, but it marred the storytelling for us. It is one thing for a player to make choices that are less than ‘heroic’, it is another for a game to force a player to act like that.

(Tack on that the PC and Jory’s reactions completely missed the maipulation that was happening, and just described it as Caithe being in some ‘dark places’, and it really felt, well, yucky.)

You were simply killing Centaurs.

How is that different than wiping out Ogre, Hylek, bandits, Sons of Svanir, Inquest, Nightmare Court, Grawl, Skritts, etc? Did you feel sick when you killed them too?

The difference is that the Centaurs were friendly to begin with. It’s different from, say, walking into the Ulgoth centaur camps where you get attacked on sight. To put it in another scenario, it would be like walking into Lion’s Arch to a polite welcome, and then making barbed remarks about the Archians being descendants of pirates and criminals until somebody takes offense, a fight breaks out, somebody pulls a weapon and then before you know it, a dozen people are dead.

Had circumstances been different, Wynne might have left peacefully and willingly with Caithe and Faolain, and bloodshed avoided.

Zaxares.5419:

The difference is that the Centaurs were friendly to begin with. It’s different from, say, walking into the Ulgoth centaur camps where you get attacked on sight. To put it in another scenario, it would be like walking into Lion’s Arch to a polite welcome, and then making barbed remarks about the Archians being descendants of pirates and criminals until somebody takes offense, a fight breaks out, somebody pulls a weapon and then before you know it, a dozen people are dead.

Had circumstances been different, Wynne might have left peacefully and willingly with Caithe and Faolain, and bloodshed avoided.

Modniirs and Harathis were surely nice centaurs…untill they were deported from their lands by Humans. Considering this, you could consider that their war against Kryta is legitimate and that they are not that bad.

It doesn’t really matter what we think are legitimate reasons for violence – everybody always thinks they’re on the right side of the argument. And player characters are, by definition, not exactly pacifists.

Yunielesca.2850:

Modniirs and Harathis were surely nice centaurs…untill they were deported from their lands by Humans. Considering this, you could consider that their war against Kryta is legitimate and that they are not that bad.

I DO think that the Centaurs have some legitimate claims to land in Kryta. Just as I think that the Charr have some claim to Ascalon seeing as they were there first before the humans. (Although the Charr in turn originally conquered Ascalon from the Grawl, so they’re not completely innocent either.)

However, the Centaurs basically refuse to negotiate for a peaceful settlement (I’m sure the Krytan government must have tried at some point. Queen Jennah managed to get the Charr to the negotiating table, after all), and they are known for enslaving and sacrificing prisoners. Thus, I will gladly fight them to defend myself and those who cannot defend themselves, until such a time that a peace treaty, and hopefully coexistence, becomes a possibility.

Ah, the inevitable “But we kill things all the time!” arguments- which completely bypass anything like nuance & motivation. I was wondering when those would show up.

I think a lot of people are really missing out on something here: Caithe and our Character weren’t supposed to be aware that Faolin started everything. We were supposed to be inside that hut, not able to see what they were doing. However, because of our third person viewpoint (and the fact that most of us have done the PS) we all know what a weed Faolin really is. At that point in time, Caithe didn’t know and trusted Faolin when she claimed that the Centaurs turned on her.

It bothered me at first, but I came around on the idea for two reasons.
1. It was history, the outcome was inevitable, so it wasn’t like you could have changed things but you failed, the outcome was set in stone and your only option was to play your role.
and 2. Caithe wasn’t really in the wrong there, Faolain very likely instigated the fight, but once the Centaurs started attacking, there was no option to stop them, so Caithe was just defending herself.

Faolain was definitely in the wrong though (assuming she started it, which seems very likely).

Well, yes, an idiot ball in action. Apparently you just can’t have a good LS episode without handing those around like candy.

And the idiot ball is not only for Caithe. Player and Marjory also get one (as evidenced by their comments after the memory ends).

See, I wouldn’t mind playing as / playing with a character that’s morally ambiguous. That’s why I like Canach, his methods are sometimes questionable but he’s not one-dimensional.

Faolain, on the other hand, is just a maniacal laugh away from being a saturday morning cartoon villain (similarly to Scarlet). She’s so over the top with her emo attitude that it’s bugging the kitten out of me. And then they made me kill an entire village of centaurs just to protect her. Great.

Eleri Tezhme.3048:

Being forced into the position of killing an entire village was just… distasteful. Even though it was a ‘memory’ and we were supposedly acting as another person, having to physically participate in that fight left everyone on my team feeling very sick.

Maybe that’s what you were going for, I dunno, but it marred the storytelling for us. It is one thing for a player to make choices that are less than ‘heroic’, it is another for a game to force a player to act like that.

(Tack on that the PC and Jory’s reactions completely missed the maipulation that was happening, and just described it as Caithe being in some ‘dark places’, and it really felt, well, yucky.)

Did you get PTSD from that?

“we are disappointed at how good the story telling was.”

The battle started when Caithe was talking to the centaur elder, and when she went out Faolain said the centaurs got violent. That’s why Caithe fought them. She didn’t know what happened.

Canakun.8031:

“we are disappointed at how good the story telling was.”

Yeah. I was horrified, and not only because of the genocide. Faolain is a classic abuser/sociopath, and Caithe is still not over her. (As seen in the ps when she gets frustrated with trying to get all those whiny babies to stop bickering and save the world.) We are doomed, guys. If she hasn’t figured it out by now (20 years!!) our chances aren’t looking very good.

Faolain, on the other hand, is just a maniacal laugh away from being a saturday morning cartoon villain (similarly to Scarlet). She’s so over the top with her emo attitude that it’s bugging the kitten out of me. And then they made me kill an entire village of centaurs just to protect her. Great.

Well, I kind of get her. She is not human. The Centaurs are not human or Silvari. She is a plant. There is no particular reason why she should care about them at all, we are just projecting our human morality onto her. And she even had an example of the Asura considering the Silvari no better. We view her actions as being very wrong from a human moral perspective, but for a Silvari defining her own moral framework, I could see her as not feeling particularly upset by her own actions, no more than I feel snuffing out millions of lives in a single day as I mow the lawn.

The world created by humans is a mess created out of egotistical malevolence chiefly insane greed for the perceptions of gaining man made wealth which has no value. They mind bend, corrupt and distort natural founding realities and callously turn their mindless slaves into even more mindless automatons.

They self delude they are more powerful than a storm yet wilt if the lights go out and kill and torture more humans in paranoid anguish and depravity. Kill or be killed …

GW2 is all about the same driven by greed with little use of the innate and incredible natural drives all humans have. Dynamic and progressive creativity is such a human drive that can not be allowed to be free as it will destroy the paranoid destroyers.

That is an unacceptable situation for the handful of humans who control and enslave all of us regardless of race, superstitions of religions and human decency to respect and care for others as is our herd instinct the world over.

Do not be sheep; do not weep but fight to save the human race from self annihilation through the weakness of enforced guilt of being caring humans as the rest of the animal world is quite naturally.

Instead play the game bound in the powers of the creators of ultimate illusions and never touch reality …. it’s messy.

Palador.2170:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

If Caithe isn’t immediately executed for this series of crimes upon capture then I probably will not continue playing this story.

Considering that we (the characters we play) are not allowed to forgive Canach for his past deeds, and they were much less than this, I have to agree with you.

I’m sure Caithe is trying to make amends for her past deeds, but her actions so far have been FAR from helpful. If anything, she’s endangered the egg and everyone else with her actions. Even her beloved Pale Tree thinks Caithe is doing the wrong thing here, so she’s hardly making amends no matter what she thinks.

Here’s what I expect we’ll get, though:

Hero: Darn it Caithe, you’ve done bad things.
Caithe: I did it for love, and then to make up for my past mistakes. Forgive me?
Hero: Of course we do, Caithe. Your intentions were good, after all.
Canach: Did I hear someone handing out forgiveness?
Hero: Stuff it up your reed stalk, you heartless animal!

Caithe should really listen to some Meat Loaf then: I would do anything for love… but I won`t do that" sings along

I would like if Caithe was forced to answer for this or at least showed genuine regret or sorrow. But I think this thread demonstrates that, if nothing else, this was an effective narrative technique.

videoboy.4162:

I think a lot of people are really missing out on something here: Caithe and our Character weren’t supposed to be aware that Faolin started everything. We were supposed to be inside that hut, not able to see what they were doing. However, because of our third person viewpoint (and the fact that most of us have done the PS) we all know what a weed Faolin really is. At that point in time, Caithe didn’t know and trusted Faolin when she claimed that the Centaurs turned on her.

But that’s exactly the problem… out character HAS done the PS, and knows about Faolin, yet after the vision we were all like “yeah caithe was attacked by centaurs and had to defend herself” even though our character should CLEARLY know that is not what happened. In that vision us in the real world and our characters have the same amount of knowledge of the situation, and should reach the same logical conclusion, yet the devs continue to make our characters utterly brainless.

To the OP, I’m sorry but we dont get to play the bad guy enough, this was pretty interesting. Its also worth noting “you” are not the bad guy but you are essentially the one dragged into the middle of Faolains actions so you are not playing the bad guy in the first place.

To be honest, I want to be the bad guy more, do questionable things, be tied to a darker chapter in the GW universe, because in Gw1, you did “a lot” of questionable things.

I think this was a great idea. They promised to show us a dark side and they did. I didn’t realize we had such an over-sheltered and over-pampered player base that can’t stomach a little darkness.